Barack Obama was elected president of the US yesterday. He is faced with many major problems that need resolution.
One of them is the fate of GM and the Volt.
October auto sales figures showed a 45% drop for GM, which led for the first time GM executives to openly describe the situation as “unsustainable” and indicated these levels, corrected for population, are the lowest since post WWII.
As GM burns ever more rapidly through its cash reserves, most analysts believe they will go below operating level sometime next year, more than a year prior to the expected arrival of our beloved Volt.
A GM-Chrysler merger, possibly government funded, stands as the less than ideal but likely only alternative. A former treasury official currently advising GM has gone on record stating “time is very short” to avert GMs collapse.
As the Bush administration has just declined to give $10 billion in aid to assist the merger, the decision now rests on the shoulders of president-elect Obama.
Obama said last week that if elected president, he would sit down immediately with the chiefs of Ford, Chrysler, GM and the UAW to develop a plan for the US auto industry’s overhall.
During the campaign Obama also spoke of his ambitious goal of 1 million plug-in cars on US roads by 2015.
Source (Bloomberg)
UPDATE: GM has issued the following statement regarding Barack Obama’s election:
General Motors congratulates Senator Obama on his historic win. He will assume office at an extraordinary time, with a number of national priorities that will require his and Congress’ immediate attention. GM welcomes President-elect Obama’s pledge to support our nation’s domestic auto industry in its ongoing efforts to transform its business and develop new technologies. This support comes at an especially critical time as our industry confronts one of the most difficult economic periods in our nation’s history , caused by the global financial crisis. And, this support will enable a competitive U.S. industry to contribute significantly to our nation’s economic revival, in employment, technology, energy security, and other important areas.
Source (GM)
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:52 am)Positively, Obama support (which will come in some form of semi-nationalization of GM) will keep GM alive long enough to make the Volt. That will get some wheels on the road and prevent the collapse of a major industrial company, at least for a while.
Negatively, Obama will do so mainly to protect the jobs of union members, his constituency. Where tried elsewhere, the result has been low-quality high-cost vehicles.
That is, we’ll get some wheels on the road. The question is whether the quality of the car produced by government workers will be high enough for it to be attractive to potential customers.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:54 am)As long as GM can live long enough to start producing v ehicles that are not 100% reliant on oil to drive, they will survive. They just need to get their foot in the door. But you still got to lay a bit of the blame on them for not doing it years earlier with the developed NIMH packs.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:58 am)I remember the heady days after Bill Clinton’s election in 1992, when the media projected their own hopes and dreams onto a Clinton presidency – 2 years later, the Dems lost both houses of Congress in the Republican Revolution, as a result of Dems aborted attempts to pass Health Care Reform, and allow gays in the military.
So far, we are repeating the waxing poetic dreams of the media for Obama’s term – now we must wait and see if the rest is repeated. We should know soon based on his cabinet picks, and other appointments.
This morning, I laughed at Jack Welch and other corporate pundits talking about the “centrist” actions Obama could take on the economy – no such thing will happen.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:01 am)#2
Celebrate while you can. You’ll get change all-right. That’s what you’ll have in your pocket…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:07 am)The ONLY things that will “change” are the speed of the increase in the federal debt, the power of gov’t OVER the rest of us and the new hammer & sicle for the USSA flag.
Oh, and that “Constitution thingy”? FORGET ABOUT IT!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:14 am)1st item:
(From the source article given by Lyle)
Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) — General Motors Corp., hammered by the worst auto market in 25 years, needs U.S. aid because “time is very short” to stop its collapse, says Roger Altman, the former Treasury official advising GM in merger talks with Chrysler LLC.
—What happened to we have plenty of cash to get us through 2009?
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2nd Item:
GMAC posted 2.5 BILLION loss this quarter, 1.9 of that from ResCap.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN0554852620081105?rpc=44
Why do I care Statik?
Good question. Well, here it is, “…substantial doubt exists regarding ResCap’s ability to continue as a going concern,” GMAC said in today’s statement. If ResCap is the baby, GMAC is the bath water. No GMAC = no more financing for GM.
“The economic and market conditions created an unrelenting environment for our business and the financial services sector overall,” said GMAC Chief Executive Officer Alvaro G. de Molina.
GMAC needs new sources of capital to escape a cash squeeze after $5.4 billion of losses in the past year. Chief Executive Officer Al De Molina told employees in October GMAC has “limited if any access to funding” for mortgage- and auto- lending.
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GM itself reports on Friday, which is shaping up to be pretty epic as well.
Unless Obama has a personal stash we don’t know about that he can throw at GM to light on fire, I don’t know what he can do about this. I was under the impression that Obama didn’t take over the reigns until mid January…GM needs help yesturday.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:18 am)#2 Joe says “As long as GM can live long enough to start producing v ehicles that are not 100% reliant on oil to drive, they will survive. They just need to get their foot in the door. But you still got to lay a bit of the blame on them for not doing it years earlier with the developed NIMH packs”
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So the ultimate revenge, if that is what you want, is for GM to go bankrupt. If instead you want Obama to intervene with a rescue, then GM becomes “government motors”. Sometimes government groups do high quality work. More often, their products are to be avoided. How will Obama ensure the former and not the latter in “his” car company?
People are not going to buy Volts just to avoid oil — Volts will have to be competitive and attractive cars, taken as a whole product. If there are numerous defects in Volts (as in the old UAW era), too many bad memories will quickly return.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:22 am)The Volt now has another BIG PROBLEM in it’s way.
Remember….Barack has already stated he wants to BANKRUPT THE COAL INDUSTRY.
Expensive coal means expensive electricity (and rationing of it).
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:25 am)The problem with a GM bailout isn’t just GM, and that is why this thing is less and less likely to go through.
A) GM needs cash to keep itself solvent to ride this out.
B) Delphi needs cash to continue to supply GM with critical parts
C) GMAC needs cash/acess to liquidity to continue to finance GM’s customers and importantly to continue to finance GM’s dealers (who without GMAC would certainly have no alternate source of financing inventory in this economy).
D) UAW needs its cash to fufill VEBA comittments
You see how this spirals out of control? It’s not like they can just cut GM a cheque for 20 billion and say there you go, please send me back my ‘loan payments’ at the first of each month.
The government probably needs to pony up a clean 200 billion and tell GM they never have to pay it back for them to have even a 50/50 shot at coming out of this. That 200 billion would not even wipe all these companies slates clean.
The problem is still the same, even with massive bailout. Even a completely debt free GM/GMAC/Delphi/funded Veba, can not make any money, sales are off 45%. Moreover, it is not the old days…when GM loses dollar number 1, they have no access to facility to borrow another dollar, and that is a big problem. No one is going to let them run up another 200 billion over the next 10 years. GM is not a viable company under any scenario…except maybe out of C11, at a third the size, free of its past sins.
/spent the money elsewhere…or better yet, don’t spend it at all
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:26 am)I’m going out on a limb and predicting this thread will get crazy with exaggerated predictions from fearful/hopeful ranters. I must resist the temptation to respond to wild, partisan commentary.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:30 am)#6 statik cited this statement ” “Absent economic support from GMAC, substantial doubt exists regarding ResCap’s ability to continue as a going concern,”
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Thank you statik for this citation.
Note that “continue as a going concern” is one of the magic phrases used by auditors when they are in legal mode. In ordinary language it means “this company is going into bankruptcy, and when it does don’t say we didn’t tell you, because we are telling you now that they don’t have the funds required to keep going” It is a formal phrase that has to be authorized by the partner supervising the audit (highest level person), and in many firms it has to be reviewed and endorsed by the audit partnership, as it always produces repercussions. Remember, the auditors are not reporters. They are insiders who know every dollar in every account, and they have scrubbed from top to bottom before using “continue as a going concern” in their language. The parent has reported the language because the auditors would refuse to sign their financial statements otherwise.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:31 am)I can see most of the posters here didn’t get the person they wanted. Please ask yourself if things could get much worse than they are right now. I think that’s what most people were thinking when they went into the voting booth. Sometimes you have to try something different…
Also, don’t expect any human team to be able to fix the situation we find ourselves in anytime soon. Probably will take over 10 years. That’s if we get our act together with a good energy plan. How do people expect our economy to recover if we can’t produce any more energy than we did over the last few years. Answer: we can’t.
Economies need energy. Want more activity? Need more energy. It’s so fundamental I don’t understand why people don’t make the connection. They think they can just move paper around and things will be fine. Nope. You need real energy for real wealth generation.
Step 1: Put out economic fires.
Step 2: Make plan to fix energy crisis.
Step 3: All hands on deck fixing energy crisis.
Don’t even think things can improve without more energy. It’s not going to happen. Sure we can squeeze out more performance by efficiency gains but you can only go so far without making radical changes in the way our country (and the world) works. Oh and what about the growing world population? Yeah, big problem.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:39 am)Texas,
Herbert Hoover turned an economic crisis on Wall Street into The Great Depression, which lead to a world depression, which led to WWII, which ended with nuclear weapons.
Yes, things can get much, much worse.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:40 am)#12 texas said ” Oh and what about the growing world population? Yeah, big problem.”
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I agree with much of what you said. But growing world population is no longer much of a problem. Population decline and corresponding population aging is more likely to be a problem in most of the developed world, such as Japan, but also including China and parts of India.
Possible rapid population growth is possible now only in central Africa, where unfortunately it is held in check by rampant AIDS and other diseases. As economic conditions improve there, one hopes, the number of births is likely to fall rapidly, as it has done all around the rest of the world.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:40 am)Stop with the Political rants already. McCain took it like a man so why don’t you and realize its over. Obama has won it and has decisively won the support of this country.
The Democratic platform is much more likely to get work done on alternative transportation and ensure the VOLT is on the road.
Obama and this democratic congress, whether you like to admit it or not, will be much more proactive on ensuring GM doesn’t die, the Volt gets to market, mass production of electric vehicles becomes large scale, regulation of electric utilities (Keeping prices low), concern for the environment…..etc.
Truly, everyone here is a GM-VOLT fan and wants this car to market for a myriad of reasons. This man is the best chance we have at ensuring our dreams come true.
Let’s put our hands together and support him!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:52 am)#11 RB
Thank you statik for this citation.
Note that “continue as a going concern” is one of the magic phrases used by auditors when they are in legal mode. In ordinary language it means “this company is going into bankruptcy, and when it does don’t say we didn’t tell you, because we are telling you now that they don’t have the funds required to keep going” It is a formal phrase that has to be authorized by the partner supervising the audit (highest level person), and in many firms it has to be reviewed and endorsed by the audit partnership, as it always produces repercussions. Remember, the auditors are not reporters. They are insiders who know every dollar in every account, and they have scrubbed from top to bottom before using “continue as a going concern” in their language. The parent has reported the language because the auditors would refuse to sign their financial statements otherwise.
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Indeed, you are very astute. ResCap/GMAC is following a all too familar road…one that Delphi has already gone down.
I was just trying to convey the message of, it is not as simple as just giving GM a few bucks. This is a many headed beast, with a lot of hands out. The government does not want to open the vault endlessly…and it does not want to open the vault once and then watch the same end game occur.
The problem is a basic one. Is GM a fundamentally sound business at its core? Can you put more ‘bailout loans’ on GM’s balance sheet and hope for success? If you completely clear all debts from them and all their subsiduaries are they likely to make money in this environment?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (9:52 am)Amen to Ksuhwail #15 !!
Resign yourself to the fact that its going to be a bumpy ride and there will be things that must happen that we dont all agree with (like a GM-Chrysler merger)…
…as a republican who got scared away by the Palin pick and voted accordingly… I for one am fully supporting this president-elect and I am confident that he will be able to get things done in regards to the electrification of the automobile and the US auto industry…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:06 am)#8 Exp_EngTech
“…Barack has already stated he wants to BANKRUPT THE COAL INDUSTRY”
I trust that you are a rational person who values intellect. You wouldn’t want to feed hysteria by spreading false information, so I am sending you this reference:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=32228
Apparently, Barack did not state he wants to BANKRUPT THE COAL INDUSTRY. That was spin from his political rivals, who twisted Obama’s words to form a campaign slogan. The truth is more complicated. Obama did say that he wants to implement an energy policy that also considers greenhouse gas emmissions and, under his policy, “clean” energy will be more economically viable. But, he didn’t specifically say he would bankrupt the coal companies.
We face many problems in this country, including oil dependence, domestic manufacturing decline, GHG emmissions . Many of us see the Volt as a good step toward addressing those problems. Obama also wants to address those problems. We can disagree til the cows come home. That gets both sides nowhere fast. As John McCain so graciously implored last night, let us all work together. Surely we can find common ground. Let’s stop fighting long enough to make progress on the big issues. Let’s find something nice to say about each other. Let’s be bigger than that.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:09 am)Jason #13
As a foreigner, may I add that a democrat ,Theodore Roosevelt, took some good decisions involving the government; the New Deal had some important economic effects on the return to growth (and some negative, the rest of the world still suffer from the “Buy American Act”).
JC
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:13 am)#9 – Statik
I realize this is just a drop in the bucket, but isn’t GMAC eligible for part of the $700B “rescue” plan? To put it another way, because of ResCAP’S toxic holdings, isn’t there an opportunity for GMAC to get that off their books?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:14 am)Ford is working on an electric pickup.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/11/05/ford_demos_f_150_leccy_pick_up/
#15 Ksuhwail
I love the Volt, but I don’t want the gov’t to make electric vehicles happen. Free consumers should. Gov’t involvement is wasteful and and inhibits the entrepreneurial spirit. Look at their long support for hydrogen cars. Several billion dollars later, no cars, just a bad (or badly timed) idea. While Tesla, the entepreneurs, changed the future, and without my money. It’s amazing how that works.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:25 am)#17 Murray says ” I for one am fully supporting this president-elect and I am confident that he will be able to get things done in regards to the electrification of the automobile and the US auto industry…”
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Apart from the particular person who was elected President yesterday, one considers the long history of governments attempting to have an industrial policy in which they picked industries and companies to encourage and others to discourage. It is a history that has more failures than successes, especially where the strong emotions of nationalism become a part of decision making. That is true whether it is Bush and banking or Obama and automobiles. It is good for government to umpire the playing field and to help people in emergencies, as is the case now for many people, and necessary for government to provide some core financial stability for the country. Nonetheless, a great deal of caution is warranted by the history of industrial interventions. They are not a new idea.
If electrification of the automobile is a good thing, and I think it is, it will be important that it becomes successful in its own right, not as an inferior product you take only because of government subsidy.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:31 am)OK, finally there will be no more desperate posts sounding like “Vote McCain” in this forum.
I think Obama is really good news for PHEVs and specifically for the Volt. Mr. Pain will not be working on a “Who killed the Volt” production anytime soon! Maybe he will have to shoot a “Who killed the oil industry” in the next few years.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:31 am)At this point it is all still in the hands of the current lam duck administration. Any help that is forth coming will need to come from the republican administration (Bush) and congress. President elect Obama can only advise and at best prepare to hit the ground running on Jan 20, 2009. I do want to see an American engineered and produced Volt, but it is something that can only be done if the company survives the next few months. Bankruptcy may be the only thing available to cause a reorg that could put GM in position to continue in business in the future.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:34 am)#20 Matt from Mich
#9 – Statik, I realize this is just a drop in the bucket, but isn’t GMAC eligible for part of the $700B “rescue” plan? To put it another way, because of ResCAP’S toxic holdings, isn’t there an opportunity for GMAC to get that off their books?
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GMAC for sure is figuring into the 700B rescue plan. What GMAC needs to do is get transformed into a ‘bank holding company’ to as you say, get rid of toxic holdings…moreover, what it needs is to be recapitalized. Right now to get back to Tier 1 it probably needs about 4 billion (8% ability to cover losses). Does the bailout allow monies for future sustainability/re-expansion to pre-crisis levels? Or does it just provide a lifeline to merely service its current comittments…I don’t know.
The bigger problem is the same with gov’t help or not. Can GMAC exist on a ‘going-forward’ basis the way GM needs it to? Can it continue to provide adequate financing (or at all) for GM and it’s dealers and customers? Is GMAC able/allowed to willingly take on more ‘toxic debt’? More importantly still…does it want to?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:35 am)#6 statik said “Unless Obama has a personal stash we don’t know about that he can throw at GM to light on fire, I don’t know what he can do about this. I was under the impression that Obama didn’t take over the reigns until mid January…GM needs help yesterday.”
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An incoming US president has immense influence over decisions made by government and large corporation as his inaugural approaches, especially with congress to be controlled by his own party. If Obama wants something to happen, likely it will happen, even in the absence of formal power.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:38 am)Let GM collapse and either come back union-less or not at all. These union thugs make 30 ish per hour for nonskilled idiot assembly line labor. Unions are nothing but repositories for thugs that exploit labor and extort and distort the rest of the economy by paying these crybabies way more than they are worth.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:41 am)Cautious Fan Says # 21, thanks for the EVF-150 link! Offroading in something like that would be awesome. Put a winch on the front and it’d be unstopable
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:45 am)Updated post says “GM welcomes President-elect Obama’s pledge to support our nation’s domestic auto industry in its ongoing efforts to transform its business and develop new technologies. ”
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It’s amusing that all those citizens of CA who have so strongly supported President Obama now will send beaucoup tax money to GM, whose products CA citizens have so outspokenly avoided.
Maybe it will save the Hummer
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:46 am)I believe that GM’s best opportunity is to declare bankrupcy just like the airlines did. This is much better than getting chrysler. GM has had some major mismangement and they will pay for it. Hopefully they can just clean up after it. Just Imanage the EV-1 was still here. Imange they kept control of their financing arm. Without Bankrupcy Ford is lightyears ahead of GM because they own their financing arm. The problem is Ford doesn’t have the cars people want but GM is working on them.
Congrats Obama!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (10:59 am)Our first Marxist president makes his first act to bring our largest (in workers) private company to the table.
This is great for the unions. Consumers and taxpayers–sorry.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:02 am)Murray
…as a republican who got scared away by the Palin pick and voted accordingly… I for one am fully supporting this president-elect and I am confident that he will be able to get things done in regards to the electrification of the automobile and the US auto industry…
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Murray, he will be able to get things done in regards to the nationalization of the auto industry. As far as your support, he does not need it any more. He has control over congress, the news media, and the entertainment media.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:10 am)Goodby Chevy Volt. Bancrupcy procedures will not allow expensive adventures including finance of Lutz helicopters and parachutes all together.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:11 am)#6 static
—What happened to we have plenty of cash to get us through 2009?
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The didn’t allow for sales to drop 45% in Oct. They were expecting lowered sales, but not that much… Same with the other recent months.
Now for the ‘coulda/woulda/shoulda’ mantra:
If gas prices would have stayed at $3-ish per gallon, there would have been much more large vehicle sales. Good profit there, but its gone.
If GMAC wouldn’t have tanked because of the mortgage crisis, they’d still be able to do leases. Good profit there, but its gone.
If GMAC wouldn’t have tanked because of the mortgage crisis, they’d still be able to offer 0% loans. Good profit there, but its gone.
That all adds up to a lot less cash coming in for the same amount of cash going out.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:13 am)THis important development(the volt) must proceed even if the Govt must finance 100% of it. I say finance, not build, leave the building to GM
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:14 am)#26 RB
An incoming US president has immense influence over decisions made by government and large corporation as his inaugural approaches, especially with congress to be controlled by his own party. If Obama wants something to happen, likely it will happen, even in the absence of formal power.
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You are right, he could apply alot of pressure here…although this is a pretty big, complicated and politically charged thing to try to get done…especially before you actually get to sit behind the desk. If it goes badly, and the plan fails along with the economy in general, the fallout for him and his party would be enormous.
I think we both question if he would want to even try, better off letting Bush take all the heat, make the hard decisions right up until the 20th of January. There is no backlash for Bush or the Republicans right now…that ship has sailed.
I would wager he would really want to understand what this bailout would entail, who gets the money and how much. Does the bailout have guarantees (jobs, etc) or is it strings free? Is the gov’t involved directly with the decision making of allocation of funds within the company?
Does Obama even have access to the resources to understand the thing clearly? Certainly the current administration has not gotten a inside look/audit of all the facets of GM’s businesses…so that would still need to be done.
GM has been careful to never used the word ‘bailout’ and has been looking for ‘loans’ that continue to keep everyone at arms length from real access to their internal workings/realities. Not able to fully fund incentives/financing for the first time this month, we got a real look at the state of GM’s business.
I think the internal situation has been degrading at a ever increasing rate for the last 24 months, GM has been trying to do whatever they can to mask the issues, hoping the economy rights itself and then once again lets GM borrow more money to make the minimum payments on yesturday’s bills (basic kiting 101…GM has been doing it like a pro over a decade). It was a gamble…it didn’t work out, now it has gone all the way to the ‘point of no return,’ all thats left is the confessional.
Friday’s quarterly report is likely to switch GM’s official line from, “we are ok through 2009, but give us retooling loans” to, “OMG, look what just happened, we were totally unprepared. We need money right now, or we are done”
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:15 am)#31 Tom H says “…makes his first act to bring our largest (in workers) private company to the table.”
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I think several others are larger, for example, Walmart and UPS.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:17 am)I find it amusing that so much is made of Obama’s mandate from the election. I just checked the latest national figures and 48% of Americans did not vote for him. Not much of a popular mandate in my opinion.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:18 am)Some of you are predicting doom and gloom in response to the election. I’m curious, what were your predictions when W and the conservatives were ascending? Did your predictions pan out, or are you simply being partisan? Honest self-assessment may make you wiser.
…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:18 am)The solution is simple.
First stop posting bad news of GM. IT causing consumers not to buy GM because they are worried about the future.
Second Stop buying foreign cars. Every new GM model is rated highter than its foreign counterpart for quality.
The new Malibu is rated number one mid size car for quality, the new CTS, The new crossovers are excellent.
When you buy a new car you cant just pass over american products because the press, toyota and others are spaming the internet.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:19 am)#36 statik.
I agree on all lines. For Obama, his sensitivity is UAW employees.
But how to protect them without doing so much more?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:19 am)Jason Hendler: The problem is that the board is already set for a major recession. Consumer demand took a huge drop in September, and corporations responded by announcing planned lay-offs of over 120,000 jobs in October, which was a 5-year high. (See my earlier posts about supply and demand coming into balance.) The reality here is that things are going to get much worse, probably for a period of about 1 year, if we are lucky. Macro-economic forces are already in motion.
Historically, the usual solution for this kind of economy has been more government spending to stimulate demand and pull the economy out of the recession/depression (yes, even Reagan did this beginning in 1983, it’s just that he spent the money on missiles instead of in other ways). The problem is that I think the US is tapped out as a borrower. When Carter left office the debt was $300 billion and less than 35% of GDP. Now the debt is $11 trillion and approaching 70% GDP. We are reaching the point when I question if the world is going to lend us any more money. The alternative is to repeal the Bush tax cuts, which will make folks like you apoplectic.
So things can and will get worse before they get better. And you can (and will) blame Obama. But honestly, if you have a marco-economic solution to this mess, let me know. I’d love to hear it.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:22 am)I heard toyota has a department that goes all over the internet to post bad comments on GM.
IF thats the truth thats dirty advertising just to sell cars.
The solution is simple stop buying foreign cars.
Every new GM produced now has proven itself.
The new malibu is number one quality mid size car, the new Cts, new crossovers.
Second stop posting negitive articles against GM because it causes consumers to get scared to buy GM.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:26 am)#39 ThomDbhomb on predictions
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The assessment of GM’s precarious financial state is not in response to the election. It is no different from what statik has been reporting right along for the last year or more. The sharp fall in auto sales has made things much worse much faster than most of us foresaw, but the trend is unchanged.
There’s no pleasure in observing these facts. [GM's issues are not a situation that either Bush or Obama created, but first Bush and now Obama are stuck with fallout.] We all would like GM to survive, build the Volt, and then build lots of other electric cars.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:30 am)On a slightly different topic, wasn’t Volkswagen controlled by the German government post-WW2? And now they’re one of the largest manufacturers in the world… well, except for that ridiculous Posche buyout thing enabled by foolish Americans buying obscenely profitable Posche Cayennes and junk like wheel accessories for ridiculous amounts of money.
America needs a charismatic President to get everybody on board to fix this mess… to encourage pride in one’s own country and products, not overpriced and overhyped stuff from overseas.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:31 am)#39 ThombDbhomb wrote:
“Some of you are predicting doom and gloom in response to the election…”
I’m too busy to properly respond right now.
I’m Buying & Storing Ammo.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:34 am)The Obama win doesn’t change anything really.
The Senate still has too many Republicans to avoid a filibuster.
So Obama won’t get a chance to really change anything because Congress will still be useless and inept.
Now having said that, Change for the sake of change isn’t necessarily a good thing.
Oh well. Congratulations and good luck to President elect Obama.
He didn’t get my vote, but I do wish him well just the same.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:36 am)#45 Gary notes “On a slightly different topic, wasn’t Volkswagen controlled by the German government post-WW2? And now they’re one of the largest manufacturers …”
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Yes. On some occasions government involvement has worked out well. One could say the same about some corporations in Japan.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:41 am)@13 Jason,
>> Herbert Hoover turned an economic crisis on Wall Street into
>> The Great Depression, which lead to a world depression, which
>> led to WWII, which ended with nuclear weapons.
>> Yes, things can get much, much worse.
<what,_me_worry?>
Relax, Jason. Modern-day nuclear weapons are
far more efficient, powerful, and readily available!
</what,_me_worry?>
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:43 am)Barry Obama has pledged to assist with the electrification of the American automobile.
He can look to the big three or he can look directly at a battery manufacturer to accomplish this goal. My feeling is that he will look at both, but in a smaller measure than either will expect. He will propose a factory operation wherein an American battery company (A123) along with elements of a nonunion work force will join to build three basic EREV models. This will be an SUV, a pick-up truck, and a four door sedan.
The battery arm of the operation will have the rights to future upgrades on these three models. The assembly part of the operation will be able to run efficiently as an additional R&D wing will not be required.
Now here’s the deal. All three of these vehicles will be offered to the public at a no haggle price of $20,000. The production agreement will be for five years. The government will provide a 5% profit to the two companies involved in production. This will cost the government a fairly large amount of money for the first year or 2. The next three years will be self supporting for the company as costs drop dramatically with repetition. And the two companies should be able lower their assembly cost to under $20,000 by the third year. The companies can then profit-share the additional net gain with the employees. This program will create an enthusiasm and ferve for the workers to do their best to make all they can as well as they can.
I know some here will say this smells of Hitler’s VW bug. But, this is how we will guarantee the beginning of mass produced electric daily drivers. And will lead to dozens of offshoot producers.
Yes we can?
=D~
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:44 am)#34 fishmahn
#6 static said, “What happened to we have plenty of cash to get us through 2009?”
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The didn’t allow for sales to drop 45% in Oct. They were expecting lowered sales, but not that much… Same with the other recent months.
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They knew that was a total line when they put that out at the annual meeting in June. They only had 22 billion in cash and another few billion on the lines of credit. They have known all along, they were just trying to put a spin on it…and for good reason.
They knew regular sales were going to be off at least 40%. The proof is in their actions. To combat that, on the very first day of the quarter they rolled out employee pricing for everyone, 0% financing and then rebates on top of employee pricing…giving a average discount of $4,000 per vehicle in the quarter.
Basically, they did everything but give the cars away to try and keep that cash balance at a level that kept them solvent…and the sales were still off 27% in July. Anyone could see that without those ridiculous incentives the numbers would have been much, much worse.
They gave away cars all through Q3, they made it to their finish line. In that time, they got the 25 billion approved as a ‘retooling loan’ before the general public caught onto their situation. Once they got that done, they moved instantly to the next cash grab. Trying to get another 10 billion under the flag of ‘We will be stronger with a Chrysler merger’ and then get access to another 13 billion (with Cerberus’ 3 billion sweetener) out of Chrysler’s balance sheet.
What happened was September 30th, 2008. The end of the quarter. GM gave up any pretense they were viable on October 1st. They let auto sales normalize, all along using the ‘38 days of grace’ (between Sept 30 and Q3 report this friday), working every corporate deal they could, and maxing out their credit lines (4.5 billion line tapped) before the banks could legally take them away.
They knew all along…I knew all along…we all knew. Some just chose to not to acknowledge it, ignore it, or put their head in the sand and believe the ’sweet nothings’ of GM’s press releases and PR department.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:46 am)#44 RB
I’m not against predictions. I’m just saying that some predictions are more reliable becasue they are grounded in reality and objective analysis. Statik’s predictions hold a lot of weight with me because he has consistently backed them up and because they seem to come true.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:48 am)#39 ThombDbhomb says,
Some of you are predicting doom and gloom in response to the election. I’m curious, what were your predictions when W and the conservatives were ascending? Did your predictions pan out, or are you simply being partisan? Honest self-assessment may make you wiser.
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ThombDbhomb, I laughed when I first read this.
Then I thought about it more. Being a Republican, I was very excited when Bush won in 2000. The Republicans were in charge and everything was going to be good. Eight years later, he is the worst President in my lifetime and Congress is absolutely no better. I’m so glad he is gone on Jan 20. I just wish he would leave for an extended vacation now.
In truth, he is an extreme right winger. I have grown to dislike extremists.
IMO, they are very narrowminded people.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:51 am)RB #48 and all of you who are against any intervention in the economic system
Dear all,
Following a lot of “pure” economists the ciurrent economic situation could be or lead (there are some contreversies about that) toward a situation of underemployment equilibrium.
Keynes has shown that in its Genaral theory in 1936 and good politics based on this concept and implying gorvment intervention have led to the glorious thitrthies after wwII;
Just to remind some of that free trade is sometimes not as free as it seems.
JC
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:57 am)Lyle:
My response to your very positive post is one word. GOOD!
#15 Ksuhwail, #17 Murray, #23 Silvio Carnevali:
Thank you!
#44 RB:
“We would all like GM to survive, build the Volt, and then build a lot of other electric cars”
Amen to that. IMHO, this is their last, best, chance. So how can we all get behind this noble goal and help to make it happen?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:00 pm)#54 JCJ says “RB #48 and all of you who are against any intervention in the economic system”
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I don’t think I have taken that position. Please read #48 again.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:03 pm)GW Bush still has some time. After all he has only had about 8 years to get us this far. I am certain that during his last few months he will solve everything. That will take away the thunder from Obama. Go George!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:05 pm)#55 noel park
Is saving GM in my best interest? GM is our last, best chance for the Volt and I like supporting the home team. But I don’t want to support a phyrric effort. I am not necessarily brand loyal. I want a decent E-REV or BEV. Other manufacturers may provide me with one.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:08 pm)# 45 Gary wrote…
“America needs a charismatic President to get EVERYBODY ON BOARD to fix this mess…”
Sooo, I guess we all just need “Re-Neducation”….
http://www.tv.com/video/yTunbfkEFScA3pO2gEBVuoCrILG4M7JW/101/146/re-neducation?o=hulu
Relax…and let the hooks do their work…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:16 pm)Exp_EngTech @ 8:
good point about bankrupting the coal industry… Also note that Obama does not seem to support nuclear as well. Talk about curing the disease while killing the patient.
I am HOPEFUL the new administration will give LOANS–low interest LOANS to the auto industry. I want these paid back in due time.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:18 pm)Sure as heck don’t want to try to create electricity from sunshine – we must burn coal – we must support nuclear – drill baby drill.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:24 pm)No GM, no Volt. First things first.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:30 pm)Obama is going to sit down with Ford, GM and Chrysler to save the auto industry, that’s great, and with the unions now in the white house and the unions not being able to have a secret ballet, It will be a state ran auto industry and Obama’s civilian security force (black panthers) will be able to keep the peace, better get used to saying comrade, whats next your guns then the right to vote maybe this is not communism but its a start, its happened other places, it starts with the people giving up their rights just a little at a time. And thank you George Bush for selling out conservatism
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:33 pm)To all the doomsdayers. Take a vallium, its the end of an era of unbridaled excess. The reality is that the “wealth” we thought we had was an ILLUSION. This is the reality check we needed. Its going to be painful but long term the only choice. For the times they are a changing, never felt more true.
Oh come on guys, give the new man a break. As J. Lennon sang in the background, it can’t get no worse, Paul was singing, getting better all the time. The glass is half empty, tommorrow half full.
Gm may have to split off “the Volt” as an ongoing entity with government seeding finance and the rest to fend for itself. Lots of job loses. Chrysler will fare no better. Ford is an unknown unless it has been hiding some cool technology.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:34 pm)#38
“I just checked the latest national figures and 48% of Americans did not vote for him.”
That’s actually pretty good. What % of americans didn’t vote for GWB in the 1st place?
But GWB doesn’t care. The last time the majority was against him, he was elected president. Bleak!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:36 pm)If GM had continued with the evolution of the EV-1, instead of crushing them and selling the battery tech to Chevron, and producing the gas-gulping tank known as the Hummer, then GM wouldn’t be in this position.
They shot themselves in the foot, as far as I’m concerned.
No Plug, No sale. Period!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:42 pm)Maybe Obama and his campaign team can use their money raising techniques to subsidize GM.
NPNS!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:44 pm)#60 Dave B
“…good point about bankrupting the coal industry”
Actually, it was not a good point because it was countered through fact-checking (See my #18). Either concede that the counter was a good point or counter the counter with facts.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:44 pm)Nice to see the power and hate of talk radio is still at it.
Wake up folks, the politics and policies of hate and division have lost this election. Despite its best efforts to create the boogeyman Obama is not, the majority of voters in this great nation have spoken and they said enough is enough.
Turn off the hate radio, turn on your brains, and do something for your country other than spew uber-right nonsense.
We are all in this together, red and blue, and we’ll only get out of it together. Maybe there is hope, and I refuse to let you highly toxic cynics spoil that.
If we believed hate radio, we will be going down the tubes.
Let’s give this a chance, and hopefully GM gets the chance it needs to survive and deliver to us the Volt, and free us from the tyranny of foreign oil.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:51 pm)Great news, the planet is going green, its called mold
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:56 pm)#68 ThombDbhomb wrote:
“Actually, it was not a good point because it was countered through fact-checking”
Fact Checking ???
A San Francisco Chronicle article as a reference ?
Give me a break.
That’s like using Wikipedia for reference material for a thesis.
Go back to Russia.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (12:58 pm)#44 RB said, “We would all like GM to survive, build the Volt, and then build a lot of other electric cars”
#55 noel park, said, “Amen to that. IMHO, this is their last, best, chance. So how can we all get behind this noble goal and help to make it happen?”
#58 ThombDbhomb says, “Is saving GM in my best interest? GM is our last, best chance for the Volt and I like supporting the home team. But I don’t want to support a phyrric effort. I am not necessarily brand loyal. I want a decent E-REV or BEV. Other manufacturers may provide me with one.”
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Now these are the right questions.
How can we (‘royal we’/general public) make this happen…and who will make it happen for us and the right way. Jean-Charles Jacquemin touched on this…not all government intervention is bad
Sometimes, the government has to apply pressure or take the lead to gently nudge/push its economy/society down the proper path…even if it may not register as priority for its people.
The rebate is a good example of this. I myself was opposed to it as it was originally purposed–250,000 units/$7,500max units PER manufacturer, but by making it the FIRST 250,000 units was an example of the government forcing a issue against the greater will. The government forced change, sped up the process by putting a carrot on a stick for all to compete for.
I think world governments need to take the lead in this instance and then allow their programs to be piggy-backed by corporate/private investors for gain.
I would love to think that someone is going to ride in out of the blue and really seize this opportunity and run with it…but this economic downturn has really sacked venture capital, and it took with it a lot of the wind behind the electrification of the automobile.
Short of government, I would think that anyone could stroll into GM and take controlling interest in the Volt program and its infrastructure (or buy it outright) for a releatively small fee…which could happen in a C7 scenario…maybe even in a C11 scenario if the judge saw it as too big a liability to GM’s short term health and liquidated it.
The bottom line is everything is up in the air. There are too many external variables to get a good read on it. The more convoluted and merky the water becomes, the more likely the fact that it will be someone other than GM getting our support (a EV purchase).
The main thing is the focus is not lost. The goal is to have a electric automobile in our driveway. It would be nice if GM furnishes our dream, but the decision is certainly not GM Volt or nothing. Hopefully our common goal, and our GM-Volt community lives on, even if the Volt itself does not.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:00 pm)First off, I am not an Obama supporter. I am not a liberal democrat supporter either. But, I do hope Obama can “govern” in the manner of his speech last night. He made a very impressive speech. Very lofty goals, etc.
Obama’s problem is that his liberal supporters and the liberal democrats in the house and senate will be pushing their punitive agenda and if he does not get on board, they will bypass him. We only have his state legislature and U.S. senate record to base any view of him. That record is very liberal (radical to some) and very partisan. You can not judge him on what he has said during the campaign, because most candidates will say whatever they need to get elected.
Given all that, I am willing to wait and give him time to settle into the job and just see what he does. I hope the best for him. He is a very impressive person and will look good on the world stage. He has many obstacles to overcome, even after overcoming the obstacles that will be thrown up by his own party. They want pay-back and it is now “their time”.
If Obama approaches the republican leadership with a true desire to work together, I believe he will find support. But, his own party is his biggest problem, if he intends to lead from the center. If he leads from the left, he will find many other opponents in and outside the republican party (for your info I am a registered democrat). Lets just pray for him to be a good president. I have already. He needs our prayers.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:04 pm)With Obama having been bought and paid for by the unions, he has no other choice than to spend taxpayer’s dollars to rescue a company that has been made noncompetitive by $135 per hour extortionary union compensations. I wonder how the general public will respond to his propping up his non-competitive union supporters
with their tax dollars? This business of the unions buying politicians
to shill for their jobs and paying them back with contributions and votes has been going on for decades. You’d think the public would get wise. Fat chance. Our illustrious media is also unionized. Does anyone think they would ever publish or broadcast anything negative about unions? Fat chance number two. What a screwed up country.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:16 pm)As far a bankrupting coal goes, the SF Chronicle debunking of this myth is a joke. He clearly notes that new coal plants will not be econmomically practical under his plan.
I listened to Obamas words at various times on You Tube. Anyone can do it. What I get is the following.
Obama realizes we need coal for a while.
Obama wants a very aggressive Cap and Trade system to manage CO2 pollution. This system will ratchet up the pressure over time.
Obama notes that a price spike (price managment) can be used to drive consumers in the right direction.
New Coal plants will probably be a big money loser in his system and he suggests that they will be bankrupted by his Carbon Taxes. He basically says, go ahead and build a coal plant if you like but it will cost you.
Money will be pushed towards renewables.
IMHO, the problems are 1. That he may put too large of a value on reducing CO2 when one considers the uncertainty in the whole influence of CO2 on GW argument. 2. He does not appear to recognize that renewables will not be able to replace the base load provided by coal. They just won’t do it in any practical manner.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:22 pm)I was told once that a wise man is one who admits he knows nothing….
There are way too many people here who don’t know $h!t from apple butter but claim to have it all figured out. It took both Republican and Democratic policies to get us into this mess and it will take BOTH to get us out.
Obama has to appoint 700+ people to various positions in his administration over the next couple of months. If you are all subject matter experts then why don’t you apply?
So either put up….or shut up…or go rant at (TV-Network).COM!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:40 pm)Ksuhwail ….you had me at #15 (as per my comment in #17) but on #76…I’ll have to partially disagree…
I would like to argue that the majority of the regular contributors here on GM-Volt.com do in fact know the difference between $h!t and apple butter.
PS– dont feed or eat from the trolls.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:40 pm)#53 Rashiid Amul said:
Being a Republican, I was very excited when Bush won in 2000. The Republicans were in charge and everything was going to be good. Eight years later, he is the worst President in my lifetime and Congress is absolutely no better. I’m so glad he is gone on Jan 20. I just wish he would leave for an extended vacation now.
In truth, he is an extreme right winger. I have grown to dislike extremists. IMO, they are very narrowminded people.
_____
Being a Conservative Republican, I too was excited when Bush was elected President 2000, but for far different reasons; he was a better alternative than Al Gore. The same can be said for 2004; ‘W” was a better alternative than John Kerry.
Any illusions I had as it relates to the foreign policies of ‘W’ were dashed the day he named former Gen. Colin Powell as Secretary of State. It would never had been necessary for the U.S. to go into Iraq the 2nd time around had it not been for Gen. Powell’s advice to ‘H.W’ during the 1st Iraq war when there was world support for taking action in Iraq. It clealy showed Colin Powell was inept in foreign affairs and that reflected back upon ‘W’.
I was never under any illusion as it relates to the fiscal policies of ‘W”. All one had to do was take a look at his record as Governor of Texas; it foretold much of what has come to be in entitlements, etc.
Having said the previous, ‘W’ is not responsible for the recent financial crisis. That can be laid at the feet of liberal Democrats. Much of it got started during the Carter Administration, perpetuated during the Clinton Administration and continuing today with the likes of the liberal Democrats in both the House and Senate.
The failing on the Republican part is knowing what was going on and doing nothing to stop it when they had the power and opportunity. It is now too late to do anything; they do not have either the will or power and the truth will never come out in the media. So, it looks to me like the past will continue for at least the next 4 years.
As it relates to extemists, they are my favority people even when I disagree with them. At least I know where they stand on issues. That is not the case with moderates of either party; they sit on the fence waiting to fall on either side of an issue depending upon when way the ‘polls’ blow!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:42 pm)#76, Ranting seems to be all that’s left for us to do, and some of us are very frustrated about the outcome, we all live here together and we will see what happens, but there’s still a lot of warnings about this guy that some of us saw that it seems a lot of you didn’t see or don’t care about, and that is very frustrating. And those 700+ people are going to be part of the problem.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:50 pm)#68 ThombDbhomb
Text from video clip:
“SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What I said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is more — that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else’s out there. I was the first to call for 100 percent auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gas was emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there to be presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meat the rigors of that market and the ratcheted-down caps that are placed — imposed every year.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.”
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He is very clear. He supports taxes (environmental fees – call them what you want) that will bankrupt current and any proposed coal-powered plants. This is not after we find new energy sources that would replace coal. That is now. Natural gas can replace coal, but at a cost. Most natural gas is used in the home. This cost would escalate beyond the reach of the average home owner. Using natural gas to generate electricity is much more expensive than coal. Again escalating cost to homes and business for electricity use. At best, we are 20 – 25 years from generating enough power from “alternate” sources to even make a sizable dent in coal use.
I agree we need to do something as soon as possible. But we don’t need to bankrupt the coal industry and home owners in the mean time.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:50 pm)Sorry about my spelling and grammar in #78. I meant to say:
As it relates to extemists, they are my favorite people even when we disagree. At least I know where they stand on issues. That is not the case with moderates of either party; they sit on the fence waiting to fall on either side of an issue depending upon which way the ‘polls’ blow!
Are you paying attention Bill O’Reilly?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (1:56 pm)#76 Kshuhwail
Chill out dude. Trading opinions is fun and allows us to see others views. I looked on tv-network.com, and for the life of me can’t find your rant against people expressing their opinions freely.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:01 pm)#71 Exp_EngTech
DId you read the reference? What is wrong with it, other than it is from a source you don’t like? Please discredit it astutely. Yelling and posturing like a looney doesn’t really advance the discussion.
At least #75 nuclearboy discussed it on a deeper level and offered a humble opinion worth debating. You don’t seem so informed or humble.
Also, please cite your reference regarding me coming from Russia. Oh wait! You don’t really know who I am and I’ve never said I was from Russia. I understand that you are angry and you lash out irrationally. There is counseling available for that. For your sake and the sake of others around you, get some help growing up.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:10 pm)All of you dreamers who envision a world where the government saves the day are definitely in for a rude awakening.
The truth is that most of us “conservative” people don’t like Democrats OR Republicans. We just hate the Republicans less. It isn’t that we don’t feel we should have to pay taxes. On the contrary, I would pay even more that the 33% bracket that I am in if only I believed that the government would be a good steward with my investment.
What proof is there that it can happen. Regardless of a Republican or Democrat administration or congress. Show me where there is proof that the government can spend money wisely? I will concede that certain things are best left to the government like the millitary, post office, NASA and large infrastructure projects. That’s about it.
Where do all of you learn to first look to the government to solve any of your problems large or small? I really don’t understand it.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:10 pm)So about those Volts…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:17 pm)#80 N Riley
Yeah, energy and the enviroment are complicated and connected issues. It won’t be easy or cheap to change things. But, we need to change things. Most of us visit this blog because we know that. It would be nice if we could find change that makes everyone happy. But, we can’t. Running the US is a tough job. I honestly don’t think Obama’s goal is to bankrupt the coal industry and home owners. I think the goal is to reduce dependence on petroleum and reduce GHG emmissions, while keeping the country afloat. Unfortunately, there will be some casualties. Change is tough and hard decisions must be made. I hope our scientists, engineers, and business people can rise to the challenge of creating low-cost, safe, and green energy solutions.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:18 pm)whooo just a thought, I hope nothing happens to Obama because you could get Biden for a president
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:26 pm)Unfortunately, I agree with bits and pieces of what is here.
- Yes GM is dealing with problems that are largely of their own making.
- No I don’t believe that GM will be able to hold out until the Volt is profitable.
- Yes I think that there is something that can be done by way of modest governmetn intervention to save GM.
- No I don’t think the government will be able to resist the temptation to placate union members. They will go too far.
- Yes I believe that someone will produce a PHEV by 2010. Perhaps even a spinoff of GM.
- No I don’t think Ford is in any better shape than GM. Their numbers are proportionatly as bad as GM.
- Yes I believe we would be better off producing electricity from solar instead of nuclear and/or coal.
- No I don’t believe this technology is ready for prime time. Even if it were, many utilities in this country are so HEAVILY regulated that it will take at least 10 years to significantly increase our renewable energy production.
- Yes I beieve we should start now even if ti will take 10 years.
- No I don’t think we can abandon coal and nuclear or drilling for oil. We need to do it ALL.
- Yes I do wish President elect Obama well and want him to succeed. It would be stupid not to.
- No I didn’t vote for him.
- Yes I do believe President Bush will have a lot to do with whatever transpires in the next few months.
- No I do not believe most Obama supporters wish President Bush well. It is my opinion that most of them WANT him to mess up.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:27 pm)What happens if GM goes into bankruptcy and doesn’t emerge stronger, more nimble, and debt free? Is there just a huge vacuum where the worlds largest auto maker once was?
The volt at this point is well into development, has a HUGE following, and has incentives to bring the price down by 7500 in place.
Wouldn’t someone end up buying the volt program if GM went under and their debtors picked apart the pieces and sold them off?
I’m not advocating this or saying it wouldn’t hurt a large portion of American workers, but if GM goes under they are not worthless. Someone would love to pick up this program at a discounted price.
Statik any thoughts on this? Personally I could see GE picking up their program if not a European automaker. If they are really 200 Billion away from getting competitive than maybe they are just a limping elephant. Without GM will there still be a volt? Personally I think so, but would it really happen by 2010 and by an American company? Not so sure.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:27 pm)#80 N Riley wrote…
“He is very clear. He supports taxes (environmental fees – call them what you want) that will bankrupt current and any proposed coal-powered plants.”
Thank-You for the excellent summary.
The average American will never accept a Cap & Trade program.
Those that think otherwise are kidding themselves.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:30 pm)Volts, what Volts?
Once Obama gets done printing enough fiat currency and taxing employers (so they can’t afford employees) to pay for all those campaign promises, the money we make won’t have enough value to buy food, much less new cars.
The 1930’s will be “The Good Old Days”!
Buy guns & Ammo? Hell yes, and while you’re at it buy food and gold while your dollar is still worth something.
Get ready for the North American Union and the Amero.
Goodbye luxury items like cars, electronics, travel, new clothes and dining out.
Yes, we live in interesting times. Blame the NeoCons with their unaffordable global empire and Democratic-Socialists with their unaffordable endless gov’t programs and choking endless regulations.
So, what about that Constitution thingy?
Obama is NOT Christ, but he may just be the opposite.
Sheeple, get ready for another shearing.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:38 pm)I like the Ford electric truck someone posted. Its pretty bad @ss for an electric vehicle.
My political prediction: Obama’s hair will be much grayer in 4 years
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:45 pm)Dear Comrades, please to not forget that president Bushki and Vice Chairman Cheny have 100 days left to start WWIII and finish off the U.S. they have already nationalized everything and the raid on the treasury is almost complete. So you Republicans if you every wake up can take the blame for the destruction of the U.S. by the most incompetent president this country has ever had. WE HAVE NOT HIT BOTTOM YET BUT IM SURE YOU WILL BLAME OBAMA FOR NOT TURNING THIS MESS AROUND IN 3O DAYS. By the way the Japaneese car makers have an open door to their government and there is nothing wrong with whats left of our government trying to help hold on to the last core industry left in this country, GM deserves a break if it wasnt for them we would have never won WWII.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:51 pm)#90 Exp_EngTech
“he average American will never accept a Cap & Trade program.
Those that think otherwise are kidding themselves.”
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Well, the problem is that the average American will not have a voice in the decisions made for the next two years. They spoke yesterday without knowing fully what they were voting into office. I don’t mean Obama, necessarily by himself. Its all the other baggage we have in the congress – both parties. The Republicans had their chance and completely screwed it up major time. The Democrats had already had their chance years ago and had screwed up major time. That is the reason the country gave the Republicans a chance to straighten things out in 1994 & 1996. Sorry, but they tried to out democrat the Democrats. You can’t do that!
We are now caught between the rock and a hard place. With the current congress, I see no solutions. Just more government. More hype and no solutions.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:52 pm)Well I’m sorry if my comment at 76 seemed a little crazy but frankly I guess I’m just frustrated as well….
I just find it so frustrating hear so many people bad mouth this guy when Republican policies keep failing us. Its like they want to hold this country back and I have a difficult time swallowing that.
How 47% of people last night voted to ignore environmental responsibility, ignore main street’s financial problems, ignore main street’s health care problems, ignore main street’s crime problems (guns), ignore responsible international diplomacy, and keep taxes high is beyond me.
I just can’t see anything wrong with Obama working with GM. However, they must remain a private company and must not receive a blank check.
Maybe I’m wrong….I just don’t know anymore
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Nov 5th, 2008 (2:56 pm)#78 and #81 Estero.
Hello my friend. I am a moderate, but have some strong leaning views left and right. Gun Control and abortion being two on opposite ends.
I don’t listen to talk radio nor watch talk TV. I don’t pay attention to any of them, including Bill O’Reilly.
I will repeat that extremists, no matter what side of the fence they stand on, are not good for the country. Bush banned (lest for a very small supply) stem cell research from embryos. He ignored the science and went with the extreme right. No matter that those embryos were going to be thrown away anyway.
I am a moderate but have some strong views as well.
It is okay for us to disagree, my friend. We both agree that we need the Volt.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:14 pm)#92 Kdawg
“My political prediction: Obama’s hair will be much grayer in 4 years
”
———————–
Something we can all agree on, finally.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:18 pm)#85 Dave:
Yeah, no kidding. I’ll try it again tomorrow and see if any of this dies down. Cyaby.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:19 pm)#95 Ksuhwail
The Republican policies of the period 1994 – 2000 were good policies and helped create a good economy and balanced budgets. The policies of the Republican administration and the Republicans in congress after 2001 was and is terrible. The policies of the Democrat controlled congress, for the past two years, has been and is terrible. There is plenty of blame to go around and each party has had their part to play in our mess.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:21 pm)#96 – Rashiid Amul – as a fellow moderate I commend you…
If you sit on the fence you wont find yourself standing in $h!t…
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:24 pm)#19 Jean-Charles Jacquemin
“As a foreigner, may I add that a democrat ,Theodore Roosevelt, took some good decisions involving the government; the New Deal had some important economic effects on the return to growth (and some negative, the rest of the world still suffer from the “Buy American Act”).”
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I am hesitate to point out an error in your statement. It was not Theodore, but Franklin Roosevelt. Teddy served as president quite a few years before the “New Deal” period.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:33 pm)#19 Jean-Charles Jacquemin
I also meant to add that Teddy was a Republican and a great President and Franklin was a Democrat and a great President. Both parties have had, and will have again, great men (and soon now, women) leading them and this nation. We will get our act together and we will achieve our goals.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:36 pm)#100 Murray
”
#96 – Rashiid Amul – as a fellow moderate I commend you…
If you sit on the fence you wont find yourself standing in $h!t…”
——————————
You can also get splinters up the butt sitting on a fence. Plus, you never advance just sitting there. You have to get off the fence to get somewhere.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:39 pm)#95 Kushwail said “How 47% of people last night voted to ignore environmental responsibility, ignore main street’s financial problems, ignore main street’s health care problems, ignore main street’s crime problems (guns), ignore responsible international diplomacy, and keep taxes high is beyond me.”
=========================================
Many polls say that the majority of voters were expressing judgments on who was best for the economy, not any of the issues above, whether for Obama or for McCain.
In any event, the 47% lost. It is the 52% majority who might think about what the voters were endorsing, and what issues were incidental.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:44 pm)If you tell a lie often enough, it soon becomes accepted as the truth. The lie has been told many, many times and now it is the truth. There are always two sides to every story except, it seems, in today’s politics.
A wise man once said…………………
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Nov 5th, 2008 (3:48 pm)Winners are always right and have the privilege of writing history. Truth sometimes gets buried and lost in that writing. I suspect there will be much history being written over the next few years. Somewhere truth will die, as it always does in history.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:00 pm)#89 Gsned57
What happens if GM goes into bankruptcy and doesn’t emerge stronger, more nimble, and debt free? Is there just a huge vacuum where the worlds largest auto maker once was?
The volt at this point is well into development, has a HUGE following, and has incentives to bring the price down by 7500 in place.
Wouldn’t someone end up buying the volt program if GM went under and their debtors picked apart the pieces and sold them off?
I’m not advocating this or saying it wouldn’t hurt a large portion of American workers, but if GM goes under they are not worthless. Someone would love to pick up this program at a discounted price.
Statik any thoughts on this? Personally I could see GE picking up their program if not a European automaker. If they are really 200 Billion away from getting competitive than maybe they are just a limping elephant. Without GM will there still be a volt? Personally I think so, but would it really happen by 2010 and by an American company? Not so sure.
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That was kind of what I was touching on in post #72. That the Volt could be severed from GM through C7 certainly and maybe in Chapter 11 if it is deemed too great a risk for GM’s surival coming out of bankruptcy.
As for the ‘huge vacuum’ if GM does not survive, that would have been a accurate depiction of the market if GM folded up 3 years ago…leaving the other players to compete for their share of 16 million+ autos. Today, we are probably looking at a 10 million unit market. There would be a vacuum, just a good jump toward normality for the remaining players.
The issue is the economy in general, the more contraction we have, the less likely non-automotive businesses are to take a chance on something like the Volt, they just don’t want to be in the sector at all, which makes ‘Volt suitors’ a very short list. Most businesses won’t even spend on a ’sure thing’ in this environment, there is a climate of self-preservation.
Of the non automotive companies that might take a stab, the list would be small. GE could for sure, as they are no stranger to manufacturing…and the original concept Volt was a co-operative effort with GE (although all the cool GE schtuff seems to have disappeared).
Another example would be Exxon, they are looking for a green flag to wave in the face of BP’s greenwashing…and the Volt’s ‘billion dollar’ budget is nothing to them, they would like at that as advertising costs. Exxon makes a billion a week…they could take a flyer on it.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:00 pm)Sitting on the fence means that you don’t have the courage, intelligence or maturity to stand on your OWN 2 feet.
You have to “man-up” and decide what YOU stand for!
a) Somebody in gov’t deciding what’s good for you, or
b) YOU deciding what’s good for you and taking the hit if you’re wrong.
With (a) your American Dream is limited by gov’t regulation, but if you fail you can force some faceless taxpayers to hold a net under you and you can blame someone else for your failure. You believe that taking without permission is NOT theft. Little courage is required here.
With (B) you can go as far as your dreams, hard work and LUCK taxes you. But if you fail, you will pay the FULL price and you can ONLY blame yourself. This takes courage AND personal responsibility.
Either way, YOU PAY THE PRICE in limited opportunity or risk of failure.
Freedom (red pill) or Social(ist) “pass the buck” Safety Net (blue pill)? Once you choose the red or blue pill, there is NO turning back.
CHOOSE NOW and if you can’t choose, you don’t have courage or maturity and therefore don’t deserve the freedom that the red pill has to offer so you will automatically be given the blue one!
Let us know when you grow up and can remove yourself from the public nipple, BABY! It’s turning a deeper blue as the blood is drained into all the sucking children’s mouths.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:20 pm)Let us hope for some real news tomorrow about the Volt. Then, maybe, we can get back to the subject at hand. One day of this should be enough for most of us. I do my share, but it is time to turn our attention to the real world. The Volt program is important. I don’t have a crystal ball to tell me what is going to happen to it. But, either way, I expect to be OK because I am self-reliant and do not have to depend on anyone else to get by. I can grow my food, if necessary. I can make most of my clothes, if necessary. And for those things I can not grow or make, I have skills to barter with. I will survive and I will see that my children and grandchildren survive. I hope and pray our economy will find its feet and get growing again. If it does, it will probably be in spite of our government, not because of it. Our biggest concern should be keeping a very wary eye on our government and never dropping our guard for an instant. We do not know how repressive a Nanny state can be and I do not want to find out. But neither do I want a government run by the extreme right. Most of us live somewhere in the middle of the two extremes although at election time we tend to get caught up in one extreme or the other and don’t act like ourselves. We really need to look at each and every politician that is on the ballot and choose only those who will defend the constitution, not re-write it based on today’s environment. I rest my case, for today. May God bless each and every one of you. I know He has me.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:25 pm)Guess my problem is I’m only 24 and for my adult life I have only known Clinton and Bush.
Bush (and his extreme Right Wing views) have truly disgusted me to my core. That’s probably why I don’t know a single republican in my age group….I think to many people around my age, “Republican” and “Conservative” have become swear words. It definitely has become that in my little bubble!
I truly feel that the youth of America can see across gender,race and sexual lines much better than older folks. We view health care and a world class secondary education as a right, not a privilege. We also view WAR as an ultimate evil and is only an absolute last resort.
Obama really strikes a cord with the youth. He ran a much more respectful campaign than McCain, wants to keep guns off the streets, wants to help everyone get health care(not socialized health care), wants to uphold Roe V Wade, care for the environment, push for alternative energy, promote public education reform, restore our respect around the world, etc…..To top it all off, he understands the place for government and that it needs to have its limitations.
Bush comes off as a complete idiot to us and while I once respected McCain, his pick of Palin and his campaign tactics are terribly disturbing! He comes off as Bush III…..
If republicans want a future they need to find a new platform because I fear they completely lost an entire generation!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:30 pm)http://www.geek.com/articles/news/latest-biofuel-discovery-is-a-tree-fungus-2008115/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/04/biofuel-plants-biochemistry-science
To liberate cars from fossil fuels will take allot of different technologies working together this could be one of them.
Jorge Santana (Civil Enginner Purerto Rico, Future Volt Owner)
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:33 pm)Off the wire. This sounds…bad:
DETROIT (Reuters) – General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM – News) will announce “important changes” to its operations in response to the “volatile global economic situation” when it reports third-quarter results on Friday, the automaker said in a note to staff on Wednesday.
GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner plans to brief workers on third-quarter results as well as “important changes to our business to address the challenges brought on by the volatile global economic situation,” according to two people who received a companywide email.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/081105/business_us_gm_announcement.html?.v=1
I’m thinking this will be overnight change of positions GM is famous for (that I was talking about in #36). They will probably go from “we are ok through 2009, but give us some retooling loans so we can be ‘ultra competitive” to, “OMG, look what just happened, we were totally unprepared! We need money right now, or we are closing the doors.”
Wonder how people holding shares from last November at $40 appreciate the deception?
/kind of feels like the Volt switcharoo all over again.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:36 pm)#109 n riley
Let us hope for some real news tomorrow about the Volt. Then, maybe, we can get back to the subject at hand. One day of this should be enough for most of us. I do my share, but it is time to turn our attention to the real world.
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I think you should probably stay away until Saturday, lol.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:41 pm)Tim, you are a little narcistic. I suggest we buy you some razors for christmas, you might enjoy the thrill. Look long term. The mantra has been chanted for 100yrs and so held up as a truism. The house of cards has fallen and even its fiiercest deffendant has admited its failure. I suggest we start by learning the lessons and see what we can salvage. Then we can build again. This time with eyes wide open, no rightwing or leftwing dogma., but use peices of each. Each side has good points to make. Some people are so entrenched , they can’t see good on any side. As I said before, our wealth was all an ILLUSION. Time to see some shit as it trully is. Gm may go down, Chrysler and ford too. They too lived a dream, now they have to face reality.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:45 pm)I’ll take my Volt in Obama blue, please.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:49 pm)Didn’t Obama promise to tax these big companies and rich people????
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Nov 5th, 2008 (4:51 pm)#96 Rashiid Amul:
Actually, we agree far more often than we disagree, at least on matters posted on this website. You might recall me saying some time back that I often scan the latest topic looking for your comments. It is because I do respect what you have to say, which is oftentimes laced with a heavy dose of common sense.
It would really be a dull world if we all agreed 100% of the time. I really do enjoy a friendly and informed debate on issues with those on the left, right or in the center as long as we can keep personalities out of the discussion. It is the ‘closed minds’ that I find troubling.
If the truth were known, I’m more moderate than my comments might sometimes suggest. Here again, we agree on stem cell research and perhaps a host of other issues as well.
But, all of this political stuff is really ‘off topic’. It is as you said, we both do agree that we and the nation desperately needs the Volt. Now, let’s get back to the topic at hand!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:00 pm)Gee Tim, it’s good there is only one issue to think about. You’ve made it so simple.
————
You have to “man-up” and decide what YOU stand for!
a) Somebody in gov’t deciding what’s good for you, or
b) YOU deciding what’s good for you and taking the hit if you’re wrong.
With (a) your Religion, Speech and Civil Rights are limited by gov’t regulation, but if you fail you can force some faceless taxpayers to hold a net under you and you can blame someone else for your failure. You believe that taking without permission is NOT theft. Little courage is required here.
With (B) you can go as far as your dreams, hard work and LUCK takes you. But if you fail, you will pay the FULL price and you can ONLY blame yourself. This takes courage AND personal responsibility.
Either way, YOU PAY THE PRICE in limited opportunity or risk of failure.
Oppression (red pill) or Freedom “Don’t put me in Guantanamo” (blue pill)? Once you choose the red or blue pill, there is NO turning back.
———–
Political choices like this are seldom black and white. It’s good you live in such a simple world.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:15 pm)#116 jefro “Didn’t Obama promise to tax these big companies and rich people????”
=======================================
At one time Obama proposed to increase the income tax rate on corporations. Of course, if a corporation has no income, it pays no income tax. That’s the case for GM and, actually, right now a remarkably high fraction of all corporations.
There was a similar proposal for “rich people”. Obama backed away some when it became clear that most of the returns from “rich people” were business returns filed by owners of small businesses, such as owners of car dealerships. (Such business generally hire from 10 to 100 or so people and create most of the new US jobs.)
As with many of Obama’s statements, I have no idea whether the ones about increased taxes still are “operative” now that the campaign is over. Obama seems to me to be rather flexible on what he thinks at any particular moment.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:18 pm)To all the people in here griping about Obama…did you vote at all? If you voted for Obama, good.
If you voted for McCain, okay.
If you didn’t vote and are here to complain, consider shutting the ____ up…
The US is no more going to hell in a handbasket than it was 4 years ago. Now an african american gets in office and everyone’s a freakin’ critic. Where were your collective asses when Bush was screwing you royally with a jacked-up economy and a war that we didn’t start nor want to pay for. You want to know where your bailout money is? I’ll tell you. Stock options, shareholder payments and $12 billion per month to the AfganIraq calamity.
“Obama’s gonna bankrupt the coal industry!!OH no!!!” Shut up, please…Listen to yourself. That has to be the most unintelligent thing I’ve ever heard. Just proves that democracy is great for everyone as long as who you want gets elected, regardless of how he may mess up the country. Obama didn’t get us in this mess-Bush did. So concentrate on the Volt, support our troops and shut the %@#! up.
…and I am african (hatian) american-there, I said it.
P.S. What’s up, Statik?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:33 pm)Winners are always right and have the privilege of writing history. Truth sometimes gets buried and lost in that writing. I suspect there will be much history being written over the next few years.
___________________________________________
That’s a whole lot harder now.
Bloggers document history as it occurs. That’s a wealth of information readily available, quite unlike the way the past had been dealt with.
Unfortunately, that reveals just poor GM’s decisions have when it comes to fuel efficiency so far this decade. But next year should be very interesting. Volt is clearly not going to help with profitability over the short-term (3 to 5 years). Something else must fill that void in the meantime. Happy blogging!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:47 pm)#120 Firefly
P.S. What’s up, Statik?
————————-
Not too much my southern cousin. Just been lazing around at home today, taking it easy with my son (continuing to put a dent in his Halloween candy).
We finally got HBO in Canada (timely), so I’ve been taking advantage of the expanded ‘onDemand’ programming…I also caught this week’s episode of Dexter (a fav of mine) between posts here and watching the CNBC…so a productive day all around, lol.
I just finished up throwing together a lasagna for the family, another 45 minutes or so and I’ll be diving into that bad boy. Then I have to ‘put out some fires’ at work for a hour or so (have a night shift tonight…which is rare), then off with ‘the boys’ to play some poker. Full day…sorta, I kept myself busy.
How about you?
(Ok, that might have been off-topic…blame firefly, heeh).
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Nov 5th, 2008 (5:51 pm)New Volt video from Forbes Video network:
http://www.forbes.com/video/?video=fvn/fueldemand08/er_energy110508&partner=yahootix
=D~
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Nov 5th, 2008 (6:11 pm)Um, Statik – Since Obama is going to sit down with GM, shouldn’t you tell them that $200B is needed?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (6:31 pm)statik 112.
I just feel so sad. I hope the Volt makes it through.
Without it I think the PHEV Prius will run into ‘delays’ etc.
Tough times ahead.
Now onto fun stuff, more election news.
There was an ad from a guy called Jim who said we should vote for him because dental treatment is too expensive and he would make it cheaper for everyone. Unfortunately, the ad ended before he could say how this would happen. Three days to go woo hoo.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:10 pm)Both GM and Ford congratulated Obama on his election and associated overall U.S. economic weakness with Detroit’s worsening financial prospects.
Automakers hold out hope the Bush administration, reluctant to bail out Detroit, will act before yielding power to Obama. Carmakers, their allies in Congress and other industries have called on the Treasury Department to extend loans or other capital as a stop gap.
The United Auto Workers (UAW) has suggested billions in congressionally approved aid could go to covering retiree health care costs, freeing up money that companies would otherwise have to contribute for benefits.
=D~
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:32 pm)The big 3 will already be getting their share of the $700billion bailout.
Govt should not intervene any more than they already did. There is no reason to sink everyones tax payer money to support a financially losing company to just flush your money away. That’s insane! Give money to a company to lose money? Give money to them so they can still have jobs but never make a profit just loss, just keep losing the $$$? Sounds like a socialist thing to me. Is that where we’re going?
Cmon! the Govt needs to look at the fact that dumping $$$ into the toilet to keep Joe the plumber working is not good business practices. If GM fails and a s1iload of jobs go then so be it. I’d rather support them on welfare than their High Union paid piss jobs they had. Yes I SAID PISS JOBS. Been there done that in manufacturing. Seen jerks just squander their jobs doing jack crap and getting paid more than me eventhough I have an Electronics Degree and Robotics Degree. Damn floor rats didn’t even have a HS Education and got paid as much as I did. Thank the Union for this bullcrap and thank the big 3 execs for putting themselves in this mess.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:36 pm)Speaking of the phukin Union, I understand they are demanding that the auto manufacturers move the jobs overseas back to the US.
Hmmm….
So much for “Buy American” huh!
So are you people still faithfull to the the big 3 for “Buy American”? What a crock of sh1t!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:37 pm)#127 CaptJack said “… to keep Joe the plumber working..”
===================
Sorry, Joe’s not available. He got a great job elsewhere. He’s a celebrity now.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:38 pm)Estero, #117
Good. We can agree to disagree, my friend.
I actually like this type of topic and discussion.
A little about myself. I am 44 year old white Republican male from CT. I voted for McCain but am very proud of Obama.
He sounds very intelligent and I hope he does well.
I land on the left or right of issues, thereby calling myself a moderate.
I rarely sit on the fence though. I do make a stand on issues, especially if they are important to me.
I hope we can meet someday, have a drink, and talk shop.
Perhaps at the first Volt rally that we both get to attend?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:41 pm)@RB…
Comedian….
lol….
He is isn’t he. That’s the American way!
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Nov 5th, 2008 (7:45 pm)#120 Firefly says,
If you voted for McCain, okay.
The US is no more going to hell in a handbasket than it was 4 years ago. Now an african american gets in office and everyone’s a freakin’ critic.
…and I am african (hatian) american-there, I said it.
——————
Well, I’m a white guy who voted for McCain. Normally I feel very bad when my guy loses. Funny how I don’t feel that at all today. Not one bit. I really think Obama can succeed if he can do something with the totally inept Congress.
And just because a black guy is going to be President, doesn’t mean he is going to bring the country to hell in a hand basket.
That is not his job. His job is to get us out of there. Bush already put us in hell.
I work with a Haitian woman. She is very cool and funny.
You seem like a very decent guy Firefly. Congrats on the election.
It is historical and it is about time.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:08 pm)GM could start by cutting the obscene $alaries being paid to the company executives. Wagonner is not worth $16 million. As a taxpayer, I don’t want to so my money going into his pocket.
Would an executive who cared about his company suck the lifeblood out of it?
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:11 pm)I hope we can all agree that we need capital investment in order to make progress toward a clean, sustainable, and independent energy future including electric vehicles like the Chevy Volt.
Ideology aside, we must admit that if the private banks are not willing make long-term investments in our industrial base, then they punt their capitalist role to the financier of last resort: government.
Wall Street looks upon American industry with cynicism and hopelessness. If we want America to lead the world toward a brighter tomorrow, then we need to make that bet.
We need to show the world that America really is a nation that values hard work, personal sacrifice, and courageous spirit. We need to put our money where our mouth is. We need to stand together.
Now is the time to invest in ourselves. It is up to all of us to demonstrate once again the folly of betting against the indomitable will of the American People.
Yes. We. Can.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:11 pm)_____________________________________________________
Volt / Obama Dynamics:
The presidential race is over and Obama won. We are all best served to give Obama the benefit of the doubt. The entire world is eager to discover how Obama will execute his “yes we can” ideas. Possible scenarios:
#1: John Kennedy – Put one foot in the conservative camp (centrist) to widen his base and implement an American Energy Independence program (Man on the Moon)…free market will correct itself inside 24 months. I get to pick the color of my Volt.
#2: Carter: – Cheerleader for voluntary social and political idealism at the cost of ignoring real world eat or get eaten dynamics. Nobody has free cash to buy a Volt and 20%+ interest rates makes payments not affordable.
#3: Carl Marx: – Forced social equalization – expand the Bush nationalization of private industry and then announce a plan for compulsory government run community service for American citizens when they turn 18. I will be issued a government manufactured Volt if I qualify…I get to pick from three colors…seven year waiting list.
_____________________________________________________
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Nov 5th, 2008 (8:29 pm)More press from GM execs today:
“GM says auto industry faces ‘critical’ 100 days”
DETROIT, Nov 5 (Reuters) – The U.S. auto industry faces a critical 100-day period in which it needs to step up its efforts to secure U.S. government support in consultation with the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama, a senior General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) executive said on Wednesday.
GM North America President Troy Clarke, who was speaking to U.S. auto parts suppliers in Detroit, also said the struggling automaker was being driven to cut costs further in response to a “near collapse” in U.S. auto demand.
“The harsh new reality is that we are never finished,” Clarke said in a speech to the Original Equipment Suppliers Association. “The era of executing a plan and being finished is over.”
Absent actions such as new borrowing, GM is seen as in danger of running its cash levels below the $11 billion it has said it needs to run its far-flung business at some point in 2009, analysts have said.
But Clarke said it was not likely that rules governing those loans would be ready before 2009 and suggested that could be too late.
“I wish the timeline was within our 100-day window, but we have no assurances to date,” he said. (Reporting by Kevin Krolicki; Editing by Phil Berlowitz)
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN053418GM20081106?rpc=44&pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
If that isn’t the first salvo of the ‘we are dead in one quarter if we don’t get help,’ I don’t know what is.
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Nov 5th, 2008 (11:07 pm)More press:
Wagoner is having a busy week it would seem…meeting with Pelosi the day before the quarter drops:
Detroit automakers, UAW to meet with Pelosi
WASHINGTON (AP) — The chief executives of Detroit’s automakers and the head of the United Auto Workers plan to meet with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to discuss the financial status of the struggling industry.
Two people familiar with the plans for the meeting say the executives of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, along with the union’s president, will meet with Pelosi in Washington on Thursday to talk about the credit crisis and access to government funding for the auto industry.
The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because the meeting is private.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081105/automakers_congress.html?.v=1
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/looks like the perfect storm is brewing.
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Nov 6th, 2008 (9:27 am)After decades of American pressure on latin american governments
to avoid any nationalization of any kind we end up with a Republican President leading the charge of a huge bailout….and now so many people are afraid Obama is some kind of socialist radical? Grow up!
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Nov 6th, 2008 (11:32 am)Simple math-people not working don’t buy-Put people back to work
and things turn around-AGAIN simple
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Nov 6th, 2008 (1:48 pm)#119 RB Says:
November 5th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
#116 jefro “Didn’t Obama promise to tax these big companies and rich people????”
=======================================
At one time Obama proposed to increase the income tax rate on corporations. Of course, if a corporation has no income, it pays no income tax. That’s the case for GM and, actually, right now a remarkably high fraction of all corporations.
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I agree RB, That’s why the Republican plan to cut corporate taxes in order to spur the economy was a complete fallacy. It only helps companies that have substantial profits right now in our current economic slump. Right now, that list is very short, and is heavily over-represented on the top by oil companies and companies that produce oil drilling related goods and services.
Corporate tax cuts don’t provide an ounce of help to small LLC’s that pay taxes through the owner/operator’s personal income taxes.
Corporate tax cuts don’t provide help even to large companies that aren’t making profits.
It was an idea that would have worked in the 1980’s, but not in our current economic situation.
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Nov 6th, 2008 (2:28 pm)“After decades of American pressure on latin american governments
to avoid any nationalization of any kind we end up with a Republican President leading the charge of a huge bailout….”
Are you kidding me? First off, Bush probably isn’t smart enough to figure this out all on his own. Second, Congress (both houses, both parties) overwhealmingly passed this measure.
The Democrats have dodged a HUGE bullet. I blame a lot of our current problems on ACORN pressuring banks into more sub-prime lending, Fannie and Freddie being “forced” to increase their sub-prime lending percentages by the Senate Housing Committee, and poor oversight by the same committee.
Fannie and Freddie have long been cash cows for the Democrats. I honestly believe Chris Dodd and Barry Frank are (were) afraid of them. I also believe that, because of his unpopularity, Bush is being blamed for everything.
President Bush’s main failing on the economy is not paying any attention to it until it was too late. Secondly, he spent up his pollitical capital and credibility in Iraq and had none left to tackle this issue.
The Republicans in Congress have been in the Minority since 2006. Many warned about the housing bubble and their words were not heeded. Even as recently as early 2007, Chuck Schumer was balking at any mention of a housing bubble.
You people waving the Obama flag make me sick. He is a crook like the rest of them. He was number three on Fannie’s contribution list. All that and he wasn’t even in Congress for two years.
Now there is plenty of blame for everyone including dumbass homeowners who would knowingly sign a five year ARM on a home that they cannot afford. People working at or near minimum wage should probably not own a home. Let alone a 3,000 square foot one with stainess steel appliances and granite countertops.
I certainly do wish Obama well, but I have no false illusions that he is somehow “better” than the rest.
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Nov 7th, 2008 (8:40 am)I can see a bunch of real jerks post on this website.
People WILL buy the Volt even if it is just to get off of oil. They’ve been burned by Exxon and won’t soon forget $4 a gallon gas. The only thing that will make people hesitate is knowing what GM did to the EV and being worried they’ll try that BS again.
The next car I buy WILL be electric. Period. No exceptions. And whether it’s from GM or Tesla, I don’t much care. And whether it’s from government funded sources or private, I don’t care either. As long as it’s electric and I can afford the payments, I’m buying it. And I am not alone.
*VERY proudly waving the Obama flag*
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Nov 7th, 2008 (10:12 am)“I can see a bunch of real jerks post on this website.”
Are we jerks because we don’t wave the Obama flag? To be fair, I don’t wave a flag for any pollitician. Although I did call Obama a crook, in his defense, they all are. He is no exception. I do think he is the least of the evils, but by no means do I wave his flag.
I too will buy a Volt regardless of who makes it. I also remember $4 gas. I however do not feel burned by Exxon. Selling a product for the highest price the market will bear is the heart of Capitalism. Right or wrong, that’s the way it is. When you work for a company, don’t you want to be paid every penny you are worth? If you were selling a product for a living, would you sell it for less just to be a
Their margin (profit per dollar) was actually quite small for a fortune 500 company. Just the sheer increase in the price of oil made net income and profits obscene.
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