Grab our RSS Feed

AND

Electric Cars and Lithium Reserves: Only Enough For 1.5 Million Chevy Volts?

November 1st, 2008 | Posted in: Environment

Some industry observers are concerned that mass adoption of electric cars might strain the supply of natural lithium reserves.

Since the lithium ion battery was first invented in the early 90s, lithium production has been ramping up rapidly for use in consumer electronic devices. Car batteries are of course much more massive, and if they are produced globally in very large numbers, reserves could theoretically be an issue.

Lithium is currently obtained from dried salt ponds, or “salt flats”. Most of the natural supply base exists in South America and China, and one expert predicts future growth will strain the ability of these locations to export the salt.

This expert, William Tahil of Meridian International Research, predicts that with a growth rate of 25% per yer of lithium containing consumer electronics, that by 2015 there would only be enough supply of lithium to build 1.5 million Chevy Volt-type cars.

Another concern is the environmental impact of increasing production.

Not all experts agree with these projections.

EnerDel CEO Charles Gassenheimer had told us that perhaps at a market of $100 billion, there might be a bottleneck, but that in fact lithium is even present in the sea (see post).

A123 VP Ric Fulop has told us that he believes there’s enough lithium on the planet for “several billion” electric cars (see post).

Source (CNET)

Posted by: Lyle

71 Responses to “Electric Cars and Lithium Reserves: Only Enough For 1.5 Million Chevy Volts?”

ziv Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:13 am

The amount of lithium used in a 400 pound battery pack is less than 40 pounds, if memory serves, and as lithium demand has grown over the past decade, so has production. So far most of the production has been from brines, and there is a new production area in the US that has been developed due to the increased demand. Tahil is frequently quoted as being bearish on lithium production, only later in the cited article do you find out that he is touting zinc air or sodium batteries. Production is booming in Australia, Chile is bringing new production on line and there are competing types of new lithium production techniques that will be coming into use within a few years.
One thing to remember is that even after the lithium is used in a car battery pack, though it will be in use for 10+ years there, then several more years as an backup battery in someones home or business, when it finally wears out it will be recycled and used again.
If we really get desperate, we will see companies using the lithium deposits in the ocean to obtain lithium. It will be more expensive to do so, but the lithium there is for all intents and purposes limitless. The vast majority of the expense of a Li-Ion battery pack is not the lithium itself, it is the rest of the pack that runs the cost up.

Lithium production isn’t the problem. Right now lithium ion battery COST is the problem. But it won’t be for long with the economies of scale that car battery production will enjoy.

http://www.indexmundi.com/en/commodities/minerals/lithium/lithium_t4.html
http://www.azom.com/News.asp?NewsID=7648

(Quote)
gsned57 Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:33 am

So I might not be able to buy mine until 2012 but I better buy it before 2015. Sweet

(Quote)
Osprey Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:37 am

Now we can trade Oil dependency for Lithium!! It will always be something!!

(Quote)
JEC Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:57 am

Lithium-Ion will be replaced by another battery chemistry before 2012. Battery technology will continue to evolve and new chemistry will undoubtedly change over the next few years.

So sit back and wait the next element debate…

(Quote)
Van Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 8:07 am

The myth that the world will run out of lithium has been with us for quite a while. Facts do not matter. Lee Harvey did not act alone and so forth.

Ford says the Fusion Hybrid will be able to go up to 47 MPH in EV mode and travel for eight miles with an improved battery. Thus more than one chemistry is feasible for PHEV, but according to the experts, lithium ion is the best. We will be able to drive those Ford alternatives at the next LA Auto Show before the end of the year.

(Quote)
Sterling Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 8:18 am

Hmmm… Bad news for manic-depressives too as well as mechanics. Lithium is used in some drugs for treating depression (not sure if it is still used as much as it used to be.) Also lithium based grease is a great lubricant in certain applications. I use lithium for packing wheel bearings, especially on boat trailers. It is said to hold up to water better. I also use lithium for lubricating the tractors on my farm.

Lots and lots of uses for lithium… Also helium is in short supply and is getting VERY expensive.

(Quote)
TED in Fort Myers Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 9:02 am

Well that leaves out those pesky Helium batteries.
Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
TED in Fort Myers Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 9:04 am

As long as I get my Volt before the supply runs short.
LJGTVWOTR
NPNS
Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 9:11 am

There are too many “experts”…………

If there is money to be made, someone will figure out a way to make this all work.

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 9:21 am

I don’t get it, the article is about the industry not being able to ramp up fast enough to meet demand.

Then we have a random reference to A123’s VP Ric Fulop has told us that he believes there’s enough lithium on the planet for “several billion” electric cars…and a GM-Volt link, which is totally another subject.

A) Not enough infrastructure to meet increasing demand requirements
B) There is reserves for billions of cars

So…both true (at the moment). We know there is lots of Lithium, we know the industry can’t meet demand (right now)…thats why there are no ficken’ EVs on the market right know.
————————————-
As to the ‘only enough Lithium to supply 1.5 million Chevy Volt-type cars,’ I don’t think we have to worry about that being a problem going forward, once we actual EV battery plants up and running.

Is anyone representing the fact that all the Lithium EV cars in the world are going to total more than 1.5 million by 2015? We don’t have one major automaker saying they are going to have any more than a few thousand out by 2011.

The only company that could attempt to dent that number is Toyota, and only if they really pushed themselves (which they seem to reluctant to do at all). On top of that, they are only producing a car with a 5-6 kWh pack max…so by the metric given, they’d need to shove out 5 million of them to max cap supply by themselves…they can’t even sell that many regular Prius’

/I’m not worried about, these things have a way of working themselves out. Speaking of demand and reserves, why do all the batterys ‘in the future’ have to be Lithium?

(Quote)
Tim Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 9:34 am

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

Don’t worry, battery tech is improving rapidly and each improvement requires LESS of the metal.

Chill Baby, chill!

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:02 am

#10 Static

I’m not worried either. There’s plenty of greedy people out there. If the price of Lithium goes up due to short supply, greedy capitalists who want a piece of the profits will start producing lithium from other sources, increasing supply and bringing down the price. That’s what free markets do well. And if the supply isn’t there, battery companies will figure out different chemistries. I won’t loose any sleep on this one.

But that shouldn’t stop us from having an emotional “LETS GET OFF OF OUR LITHIUM DEPENDENCY NOW” campaign.

(Quote)
drivin98 Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:18 am

Here is one person’s take on the lithium supply situation. http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

(Quote)
ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:27 am

There is also Capacitor storage for electricity which is under research and looking very promising. As someone above said greedy men will find a way.

(Quote)
Mike-o-Matic Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:35 am

@6 Sterling,

>> Also helium is in short supply and is getting VERY expensive.

Off topic chemistry thought here…

Compared to helium depletion, talk of a lacking lithium supply is a nonevent. Lithium is plentiful in the Earth’s crust, and in the oceans. It’s a matter of mining and extraction.

Helium on the other hand, is the product of radioactive decay that takes billions of years to produce appreciable volumes. Worse, because of its exceptionally light nature, when released it can literally drift off the planet and be gone (as far as we’re concerned) forever. It has numerous crucial applications for which there are no easy substitutes.

The idea of running out of Helium is scary stuff — as if we didn’t have enough to be terrified of nowadays! But it is conceivable, unless currently unknown underground reserves are found somewhere, that we could reach a day where people remember “a time when the world had an element called Helium.”

Yikes.

(Quote)
Biodieseljeep Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:37 am

Wait now. The lithium in the batteries does not turn into lead after the battery “dies”. Certainly there will be an aftermarket for the recycling of scrap batteries.

Putting the cart Waaaaayyyy before the horse here. Back to IF any production, pratical long range electric vehicles will be made, not the limits on how many….

Good luck, GM.

(Quote)
Fred Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:52 am

Well, the oil industry was successful at getting people to hate ethanol. I see they’re busy with electric cars too.

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:57 am

this is old news for those of us who following the EV industry in general at http://www.evworld.com/

(Quote)
noel park Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 11:13 am

As my mother always says, “Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.” God forbid that we should have such a problem that we run short of lithium when 1.5 million Volts have been built. I don’t see that happening in my lifetime at the rate we are going.

Isn’t BYD saying that their battery will be based on iron or some such? I just hope that we can all make enough money flipping burgers at McDonalds to pay for our Chinese PHEVs. Or are the burgers flipped automatically now?

(Quote)
Lurtz Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 11:20 am

Um.

#1 Lithium is not the only power storage medium.
#2 Investment in production generally rises when the demand and commodity prices rise.
#3 Lithium is recyclable.

Anyway, that pretty EV-2 Honda Civic clone will have something to store energy on, assuming GMChrysler lives long enough on the gummint dime to actually bring this pipe dream to market…

(Quote)
Brian Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 11:58 am

It would be nice if all the variables of everything could be worked out before hand, and we are getting better at this as we move through time, but to expect everything to be ultimately worked out every time a new technology comes out is too much to ask for. The benefit of using substantially less oil counteracts this lithium problem, if it is a problem.

Also, it brings to mind, once again for me, at least, the problems of over-population and unrestrained use of energy. Even if your car ends up being electric, why do you live 20 + miles away from work? This might be OK if the population were 2 billion with our present technology, but as people continue having kids, our behaviour will have to change.

(Quote)
Randy C. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 12:03 pm

Lithium is not the only battery technology available. NiMH batteries have been used in electric cars and have proven themselves to be reliable and capable of long life. Once the patent situation is resolved a lower cost companion to lithium could be available.

Also if EEstor can deliver what they promised lithium for electric cars is going to be redundant and much more expensive. I recently read about another research group (can’t remember the name right now) that had come up with a similar technology that will work as a power source. Both of these technologies are going to be 1/10 the cost of lithium and provide a much longer cycle life.

So these alarmists that say we are going to run out of lithium are premature. Besides as the use of lithium increases the recycling network will grow and provide all the lithium the world will need. Lithium is an element it can’t be destroyed or degraded by recycling.

(Quote)
Lurtz Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 12:32 pm

I’m wondering why I haven’t heard the logical contortions of the Limbaughites on this board why they’re voting against California’s Prop 1a, because it represents yet another gummint pork project whose only purpose is to reduce global warming (which the corporate mothership’s talking points have instructed you to label “a crock of sh#t”) — but spending billions of dollars to prop up GMChrysler’s rich investors to *maybe* come up with a new car model in ten years and produce in the low ten thousands and for the low, low price of $50k, and which will lumber along for only a couple dozen miles on batteries.

American politco-capitalism at it’s awesomest!

(Quote)
noel park Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:06 pm

#23 Lurtz:

I am a life long Democrat and resident of California. I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh whatsoever, at any time.

I voted no on Prop. 1a because I believe that the $10 billion would disappear without a ripple into the sink of the political/consultant complex. What would be left behind would be $500 million per year of debt service to come out of the general fund, which is worse than broke in case you haven’t noticed, and the need for our kids to pay back the $10 billion some day.

If the people of California want to do multi-billion dollar infrastructure projects all well and good. I would be happy to do my share by paying increased gasoline taxes, for example. But this bond deal is just a sham, a way of getting what some people must somehow believe is free money. It isn’t. The ever increasing debt load at every level of government is as bad as, or worse than, 0 down, no qualifying, adjustable, teaser rate mortgages, IMHO, and will cause an even bigger financial crisis in the fullness of time.

(Quote)
Casey Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Would someone take a minute and give some of us novices a list of what some of the meanings of LJGTVWOTR and a few others are

NPNS

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:23 pm

For all we know the next best battery core may be produced from seaweed. A “lithium shortage” doesn’t matter in today’s rapidly growing battery RD programs.

My son and I are RC enthusiasts. We fly electric airplanes and drive electric RC cars. In 1998 we were lucky to get 1-2 minutes of low output battery power out of the newest battery technology. Today we drive our RC dune buggy which runs at 60 MPH (to scale) for 15 minutes duration. 60MPH x 15 minutes = 15 miles. This development isn’t going to stop.

I have 2500 miles on my electric daily driver car at work. It charges in 5 hours and seems to be getting stronger every day. Plugging it in is a pleasure. And turning it on afterward and seeing 6 full bars of charge is very rewarding. No gasoline at all…none.

Although I sometimes get sidetracked here in the forum and often turn to joking around. My serious thought on GM’s future is that they need to get both an EREV Volt and EREV Cruze out by 2010. With the reported interchangeable parts of these two models I don’t see a problem with this goal. GM may survive and thrive without an EREV Cruze. But an EREV Cruze with a 30 mile battery (300 lbs) ensures GM’s survival.

EREV Volt $35,000 – $7500 credit
EREV Cruze $25,000 – $5000 credit

I honestly feel it’s as simple as this.

=D~

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:29 pm

#25 Casey

Would someone take a minute and give some of us novices a list of what some of the meanings of LJGTVWOTR and a few others are

NPNS
——————————————-
It is just some kind of uppity, secret internet club thing, you don’t want to be involved…ignorance is bliss. (They are mostly swear words and whatnot)

The guy who invented it got a patent, printed a whole line of T-Shirts/bumper stickers and has rarely been seen on the forum since…apparently there is no wifi at the tropical beach where he lounges and sips margaritas all day.

/I hope somewhere your ears are bleeding Tag

(Quote)
Van Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:31 pm

I voted no on 1a, high speed rail in California, a bond issue of about 9 billion that would require matching funds, read more tax dollars, so an initial expenditure of close to 20 billion. The payback plus interest would be around 40 billion tax dollars. And then the O&M costs would be around 1 billion per year for another 30 billion tax dollars over the life of the bond. This at a time when California is facing bankruptcy. We already have light rail in LA and the cars run empty most of the time.
The high speed rail might be guided by guys texting messages instead of protecting the riders. Or TSA folks texting while the boys with sweet smiles and heavy backpacks climb aboard. Lets take that 70 billion and leave it in the tax payers pockets so they can buy Volts!

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:32 pm

#26 Dave K

Although I sometimes get sidetracked here in the forum and often turn to joking around. My serious thought on GM’s future is that they need to get both an EREV Volt and EREV Cruze out by 2010. With the reported interchangeable parts of these two models I don’t see a problem with this goal. GM may survive and thrive without an EREV Cruze. But an EREV Cruze with a 30 mile battery (300 lbs) ensures GM’s survival.

I honestly feel it’s as simple as this.
—————————–

I think ‘Volt’ is actually swahili for EREV Cruze.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:49 pm

hi statik #29,

“I think ‘Volt’ is actually swahili for EREV Cruze.”

____________________________________

The EREV Cruze with a smaller battery isn’t a Volt, it’s a Chevy. The “Volt” really is closer to being a BMW in both style and cost. The Volt owner will be in the $50,000+ a year income bracket. The EREV Cruze is an option for the rest of us.

With gasoline prices temporarily coming down public opinion will change. Yes, I believe we are this short sighted and fickle. The V8 Camaro and the $8000 discount on heavy trucks will become more attractive.

Is this the goal of big oil and of OPEC? To make sure we don’t lose our heroine addition to gasoline? Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.

The nimble will survive.

=D~

(Quote)
Casey Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Thanks Statik, that really helps, feel a lot better now, BTOJLF, if I ever need anymore help I will know wher to get it, KFDET,LOL

PHEV, BEV,EESTOR,EV,NPNS,EREV,TSA,IMHO,and about a thousand others

NPNSNWFRLOL( try and figure that one out)

(help) (LICS) lost in cyberspace

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:15 pm

BTW ~ I checked the inventory at our local dealership, Paradise Chevrolet. Looks like it’s mostly 09’s. 20 Malibu, 5 Impala, 15 Silverado, 15 Cobalt, 4 Aveo, 10 Equinox, 10 Colorado, 5 Corvette, 10 HHR, 5 Tahoe, 5 Trailblazer, 5 Traverse, 20 Suburban (08’s), and 15 assorted commercial vehicles.

Looks like the 08′ Suburbans are having trouble finding a home. This is a signal that we may be getting off the oil glutton habit.

=D~

(Quote)
curtis Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:21 pm

#29 Dave K
What are you talking about? The Volt IS an EV Cruze!
(with only minor revisions really)

The up-coming Delta II platform cars such as the Volt and Cruze (btw the current Delta’s like the Malibu are NOT the same) share a lot of their under-pinnings and major assemblies. The next gen Saab 9-3 will also be Delta II.

(Quote)
kent beuchert Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:33 pm

That “expert” William Tahil is part of a goofy organization called Meridian International Research that has made some preposterous false claims in the past – they seem to like to make claims about coming disasters and then propose solutions. The org moved to France recently, as I recall, perhaps to get away from some legal issues. I’ve read arguments on both sides of the “not enough lithium” issue, and Mahil’s arguments are always soundly trounced by those who know something about lithium reserves and the requirements for a global battery industry.As far as I can tell, only Tahil and his org consider him an expert. About anything.

(Quote)
Greg Simpson Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I think BYD’s batteries are LiFePO4. That is, even though they contain iron they are still lithium batteries.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:54 pm

#25 & #31 Casey:

Once upon a time, there was a famous blogger who called himself Tagamet. He was a close friend and ally of the dreaded Statik. He has been AWOL for several weeks now, and some fear that he may be the victim of foul play at the hands of OPEC, or some such. He always ended his comments with:

Let’s Just Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road!! No Plug No Sale!

Some smart alec, no names please, came along one day and said:

“Let’s save a lot of keystrokes and just use LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!”

As for me, I am just promoting my latest inspiration, learned at my mother’s knee:

“If You Can’t Say Something Nice, Just Don’t Say Anything At All”

IYCSSNJDSAAA, but I have to confess that it looks a bit unwieldly, even to me.

If things get much worse in the GM camp, I am going to roll out:

“Turn Out The Lights, The Party’s Over” TOTLTPO

(With apologies to Willie Nelson and “Dandy” Don Meredith)

(Quote)
noel park Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:57 pm

#35 Greg Simpson:

No doubt you are right. Maybe a little less?

(Quote)
Keerthi Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 3:36 pm

While Lithium Ion (various adaptations including Lithium Polymer) is the most promising Battery technology, I beleive we would be having more technologies (and funding) once Electrification of the Model T (Volt ofcourse) is fructified.

So in essence it could be argued as a possible future challenge, it would never be a dampner.

(Quote)
Guy Incognito Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 4:03 pm

In terms of abundance in the Earth’s crust, there’s more Lithium than Copper.
In fact, the Atacama Desert of Chile is loaded with it, Lithium that is.

Only enough Lithium for 1.5 million Chevy Volts?
The people that make these assertions must think that the members of gm-volt.com are idiots.

This is almost as bad as when Susan Kately said that solar power technology is still on the drawing board & does’nt work.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 4:09 pm

hi curtis # 23,

#29 Dave K
What are you talking about? The Volt IS an EV Cruze!
(with only minor revisions really)

____________________________________

The Volt is a high end, tech heavy, high R&D aero, ground effects profile, higher EV range EREV (40 miles ~ 500lb battery).

The EREV Cruze, which I mentioned in post #29, is simply this. A low aero tech (standard Cruze body), lower range (30 miles ~ 300lb battery), standard knob and button control panel, higher riding car for the lower income masses.

The EREV Cruze offers similar performance for $10,000 less per unit cost to the consumer. I can see a huge European market for the EREV Cruze. And also a huge Australian market. A Cruze is much more adaptable to the needs of the public.

The EREV Volt is a status symbol and a niche car. More of a Corvette mentality buyer than a Malibu buyer. I believe most here will agree that GM may have over-done the aero on the Volt body. And it all costs money.

=D~

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 4:27 pm

#30 Dave K

Well nobody sounds excited about lithium shortages, so I’ll chase a rabbit.

To answer your question, of course oil companies want us to stay hooked on their product. Keeping a high demand will keep the prices up. I don’t think that motivation is in question. The question is, how much power do they actually have to control this.

Maybe the oil companies have a giant price fixing conspiracy going on. Or maybe the price of a commodity is driven more by fundamental supply & demand and future expectations of the supply & demand. I think our friend Okham might have an opinion on that issue.

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 4:30 pm

I don’t buy it, but if anyone wants to read a lithium doom & gloom article, see the link. It’s very well written.

http://tyler.blogware.com/lithium_shortage.pdf

(Quote)
Mark Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 4:41 pm

Good ol’fashioned Big Oil fear mongering….

They’ll do anything and pull out all stops to prevent us from leaving their claw-like grip.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 5:01 pm

hi Mark # 43,

“They’ll do anything and pull out all stops to prevent us from leaving their claw-like grip.”

_________________________________

I agree, the Big Oil greed factor is incomprehensible. How much profit is enough?

Most successful businesses are able to pay their execs well and turn a million or two profit a quarter. This is considered a terrific earnings rate.

An 11.8 billion dollar quarter for just one arm of the oil business!

When is the last time you heard of Chevron, Exxon, or any other oil company stepping up in a community and opening a new library, school, civic center, education foundation, or nature preservation fund of any kind? I haven’t in my lifetime. They will sometimes clean an oily beach but only after a brutal court battle.

We see BP ads showing windmill covered hillsides and talking about investing in a clean future. Let’s be honest, they are investing in their future monopoly and control over alternative energy.

More is never enough.

=D~

(Quote)
Edwin Mang Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 5:14 pm

If my memory is correct brine is what is a by product of oil production in old stripper wells …… I wonder what that would do for stripper well production ?

Plus there are salt flats in the USA like over by Cherokee Oklahoma .

God Bless

Edwin Mang Jr

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Thank goodness EESTOR is just around the corner. I don’t know what we would do with those guys.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 6:19 pm

One more comment before heading off to work.

GM, if you do produce an EREV Cruze. Please go with an American battery manufacturer. The whole idea behind the Volt is: American know-how = American jobs = less oil use = less carbon in our air = less war.

Here’s a chance to cover all bases.

=D~

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 6:24 pm

Oh boy, the old Lithium shortage myth again.

Having said that, Lithium is recyclable so I can see companies not wanting to develop expensive new mines if they think old batteries will be recycled, and new demand drop.

It is entirely possible a pinch point could be reached in ten years or so. But plenty of reserves are available, at a price.
Next myth please Lyle. Didn’t we do this one last year?

LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.

(Quote)
curtis Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 6:55 pm

#40 Dave K

OIC
You’re just playing “make believe” using ficticous specifications, speculative $$ values and flawed rationale.

(as if “proportional math” switching from a 40-mile 400lb battery to a 30-mile 300lb battery is going to make a $10,000 difference- there’s a bit more to it than that LOL )

Anyways, I wouldn’t hold my breath for what you are obviously “just dreaming” of…

(Quote)
Len Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:09 pm

A couple of articles in treehugger:

GE investing 55 mil in A123. A123 working with 18 hybid vehicle manufacturers.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/11/ge-backs-plug-in-hybrids.php

LG Chem chosen for Volt battery supplier.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/gm-volt-battery-lg-chem-electric-plug-in-hybrid-car.php?daylife=1

(Quote)
Detroit Loser Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:10 pm

The rest of America outside Rust Belt generally do not need Big Three, whether they can survive simply does not matter, do you know that 85% people in San Francisco area buy “foreign” cars.
I have heard many times Americans saying: I hate American cars.

(Quote)
Casey Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:11 pm

#36, Thank you NOEL PARK, I am sure there are a lot of bloggers that wanted to know that. Statik gave a brilliant answer but it left some of us wondering if it was really the correct and truest answer

We all are in this Volt thing together and we all want off the dependency of Oil, but there is no reason not to have fun while Lyle keeps us going.

LJGTVWOTR, NO PLUG NO SALE NO WAY =D–$00.00 (free ride)

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:20 pm

#46 Rashiid said, “Thank goodness EESTOR is just around the corner. I don’t know what we would do with those guys.”
————-
Wait…around the cornor? You mean you haven’t got your EESTOR powered Zenn car yet? I like mine so much I got two, delivered right to my door…right on time like they promised and on budget. Maybe it is becuase the HQ is right near where I live here in TO.

They aren’t styled that hot, but boy they are great, nothing like 250 miles of range and a 10 minute charge.

(Quote)
Len Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:24 pm

I don’t think I agree with him (having voted not to give GM a loan for a merger with Chrysler), but Obama in a recent video says he thinks the American Auto industry is too important to let it fail. He says too many people are employed by the auto industry and unemployment is too high already. He will insist that only efficient cars are produced, but will advocate loaning the car companies what they need to get back on their feet.

i think they should go through bankrupcy and dump the shackles and come out competitive.

(Quote)
Tom Harwick Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 7:42 pm

13 Drivin98

Here is one person’s take on the lithium supply situation. http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

————————————-
Great post by 13 Drivin98.

There are not two sides to this debate. The post, by Drivin98 linked to an article that settles the issue. On the other hand the Tahil article is based on the false premise that “reserves” of a commodity (e.g. lithium ) represent all of the commodity in the earth’s crust.

Currently, the Lithium in the oceans is excluded from reserves because it costs 4 times as much to recover as with the current methods. But if we exhaust brine based lithium and mineral based lithium, we can get enough Lithium from the oceans to build literally trillions of cars. That would support 50 million cars per year (100% electric) for over 20 thousand years. And the cost penalty is minimal since Li ion batteries only use 1.4 kg of Li per KWh.

And of course, LI is recyclable, so we are good for closer to a million years’ supply. After that, we might need a new chemistry.

(Quote)
R. Keith Evans Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 8:28 pm

People concerned about lithium availability should read 2 reports on http://www.worldlithium.com which lists reserves and resources in brines, pegmatites, hectorities and jaderites. There will be no need to resort to using sea water as a source.

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 8:42 pm

#56 R Keith Evans said, “People concerned about lithium availability should read 2 reports on http://www.worldlithium.com which lists reserves and resources in brines, pegmatites, hectorities and jaderites. There will be no need to resort to using sea water as a source.”

——————–
I read that report actually…I think I pulled it off your blog. I’m assuming no one is ‘camping your name ‘ here and that is actually you, lol. (but you never know).

Nice to meet you, I enjoyed your work.

Just curious why you didn’t continue with it? Seemed like you dumped a ton of entries in March of ‘08, then that was it.

http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/

Is this maybe a shadow site? Do you have another blog…I would be interested in keeping up with some of your day to day thoughts, if you have a place where you journal.

If not, thats ok too, lol. Nice to make you acquaintance. Welcome to GM-Volt.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:36 pm

hi curtis # 49,

…a 30-mile 300lb battery is going to make a $10,000 difference- there’s a bit more to it than that LOL…

__________________________

Neither of these cars are built yet. Which one will have wider appeal? Which one will be more affordable?

1>The Volt is a high end, tech heavy, high R&D aero, ground effects profile, higher EV range EREV .

2>The EREV Cruze is a low aero tech (standard Cruze body), lower range (30 mile), standard knob and button control panel, higher riding car.

The people’s car? http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Cruze%20wet.jpg

=D~

(Quote)
J Man Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 am

Well I guess some one better hurry up and design something better then

(Quote)
Estero Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 am

#23 Lurtz

Another anti-American preaching nonsense! You’re mind is obviously made up! How dare anyone try to unscramble what’s left of your brain! How dare anyone confuse you with facts, an alternative view or “the rest of the story” as Paul Harvey would say!

(Quote)
kubel Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Please, we need to put the NiMH patent myth to rest. EV-95 is one of many large format NiMH batteries. It is available today. GM (in the VUE and other hybrids) and other automakers have contracts to use this same battery still. Toyota lost its priviledge when it tried to improve the battery design without consulting the patent holder, which resulted in a lawsuit that settled with Toyota paying a lot of money and being barred from EV-95, except in cases where existing owners need replacement packs.

There is no conspiracy here. Toyota was getting a little too greedy and screwed up. They are the only ones suffering because of it. Outside of Toyota, EV-95 is still available, and other large format NiMH batteries are still available to everyone. Google “Nilar NiMH”.

The reason EVs failed wasn’t because of patent supression!

Back to the original topic. If Li-ion is no more, the market will adapt and find an alternative. Li-ion isn’t the only thing out there. It’s not even the best. It’s just cheap and good enough for consumer use.

(Quote)
js1219 Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Not a concern right now. After a million of these babies hit he road and other resevers have been explored, then we can see if it is a worry.

But if I would sell them esclusivley in the US until demand shrinks.

(Quote)
Brad G Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:17 am

Just a few years ago NiMH was the new battery type.
Today it is Li-ion.
Second or third generation Volts in a few years will use the “next” new battery type like sodium, etc.

Just 15 years ago I bought my first fax machine.
Just 20 years ago I bought my first cell phone and it was installed in my car.

The “experts” predicting Li-ion shortage are not assuming that a new battery type is just a few years away.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Has anyone looked up for large format linthium ion batteries? Only a handfull, a123 and a few others are US. The rest are in China. We should probably worry more on how we can get this resource in the US than if we run out. By the time we strengthen our foundation on Lithium in the US, I guarantee you that a new battery technology will arise.

Also, I remember seeing someone post making everything in the US. I am not apposed to this but most people are smart enough to know that if they do not have the money, they will purchase according to their financial ability. That said, and knowing how the US Unions work, most products manufactured in the US are almost always more expensive than imported, again google for lithium ion polymer batteries. Anybody who says buy American is a Hypocrite, I can almost guarantee they have purchased products because of price and not “American Made” and they chose something made of primarily foreign objects.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm

I don’t think I will start worrying anytime soon.

(Quote)
joe obrien Says:
November 4th, 2008 at 4:05 am

Just as long as OPEC doesn’t get their greedy hands on the lithium supply.

(Quote)
Jon Archer Says:
November 5th, 2008 at 3:30 am

#15
Mike-o-Matic Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:35 am
The idea of running out of Helium is scary stuff — as if we didn’t have enough to be terrified of nowadays! But it is conceivable, unless currently unknown underground reserves are found somewhere, that we could reach a day where people remember “a time when the world had an element called Helium.”

Yikes.
——————–
Don’t worry, there is *plenty* of helium in the lunar ‘dirt’. It’s been accumulating from billions of years of solar wind. It even has a lot of He-3, which might be very useful for fusion power.

Of course, we will have to go to the moon, mine it, and transport it back to Earth… think of the helium as a prize for the Group with the best spaceships and mining systems.

(Quote)
GoAutoCraze Says:
November 8th, 2008 at 12:28 am

There is more than enough lithium supplies to convert twice the number of vehicles worldwide we have today to be powered by lithium batteries and still lithium surplus will be there. It is very abundant. If I find those articles again, I will post links here.

(Quote)
TALLPALL Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am

661 Day’s to go..

(Quote)
Patrick Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

People who claim that a more efficient car would help our energy problem should familiarize themselves with Jevon’s Paradox. Simply put, a more efficient car will be an environmental disaster as induced demand will inevitably creep in to increase our total energy consumption even as per capita consumption decreases.

(Quote)
Hasley Says:
October 9th, 2009 at 11:05 pm

Showing some love to this topic “new to this wordpress”. I defiantly agree with it also. If you really think about it than it all makes alot of sense

(Quote)

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts

New video: Volt drive in Detroit November 19, 2009
November 19, 2009 Detroit Free Press story with video featuring a Volt drive with Andrew Farah in... […]
srschrier
New Video: Volt Corrosion Testing November 18, 2009
From GM VoltAge, the Volt's corrosion... […]
srschrier
Th!nk picks Indiana for U.S. factory November 18, 2009
Th!nk picks Indiana for U.S. factory: _Link_ (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1038564_thnk-picks-indiana-for-u-s-factory) […]
Jason M. Hendler
FIRST ALL-ELECTRIC APTERA 2e PUSHED BACK TO 2010 November 18, 2009
FIRST ALL-ELECTRIC APTERA 2e PUSHED BACK TO 2010: _Link_... […]
Jason M. Hendler
Any news about the NiMH battery? November 18, 2009
Now that there are new owners of the patent, is there any indication that they will allow its use for electric cars? Like many others, I believe that... […]
Desertstraw
energy requirments of modern electric vehicles November 18, 2009
does anyone know any credible sources of information concerning the electricity requirements of modern electric vehicles per mile of travel and the... […]
crubkings
30% reduction November 18, 2009
The Belgian governement decided that if you buy a car with less then 60g/km emmision you get a 15% tax reduction and you can write it off for 100% if... […]
filiep

Electric Cars and Lithium Reserves: Only Enough For 1.5 Million Chevy Volts?

71 Responses to “Electric Cars and Lithium Reserves: Only Enough For 1.5 Million Chevy Volts?”

Leave a Reply

Recent Posts

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts