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Will the Chevy Volt Have a “Limp Home” Mode?

October 31st, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Engineering, Fuel, Generator

Obviously the Volt can be driven without gas, in fact that the whole purpose. The range extender exists only for if you have to go further than 40 miles between charges.

One thing to consider is what would happen if the car ran out of gas after the battery has reached its depletion point, or was in charge-sustaining mode. Since there would still be charge in the battery, it is conceivable that the car could be engineered to dip into that a little and give the driver a “limp-home mode” that might allow 1 to 2 miles of slow driving to get you to the gas station.

The New York Times has just reported that Volt executive Frank Weber mentioned such a limp home mode might be available on the Volt.

Or will it?

I just recently had asked this same question to Mr. Weber’s colleague, Bob Kruse, who is GMs director of Hybrids and EVs.  My questions and his comments follow:

Will there be a limp home mode, if you run out of gas at the same time you’re at battery depletion, allowing the driver a couple of miles of low speed driving?
If it’s your Volt, are you willing to wound your battery for that convenience?

If it happens very rarely it may not impact the cells longevity.
Well I’m the expert on that and is that something that you’re willing to sacrifice, the longevity of your battery in order to overcharge it?

Ideally no, but I think if it were a dire situation the car could give you a big red button on the screen…
I could let you do it but you can’t expect me to give you a life of the car battery of you want to operate outside the norms. But we do have Onstar so if you use it they’ll bring you a gallon of gas.  I don’t know whether were going to do it (have this feature) or not.

So it looks like this idea is probably still up in the air.

Would you want this feature?

Posted by: Lyle

196 Responses to “Will the Chevy Volt Have a “Limp Home” Mode?”


  1. J Man
    Vote -1 Vote +1J Man     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:35 am

    I don’t feel it is needed, It should be like any other car. Just watch that gas guage and you will be fine.


  2. Right-Winger
    Vote -1 Vote +1Right-Winger     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:36 am

    nope they’ll make is screw up the warrentee


  3. Ignatius
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ignatius     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:40 am

    Huh. Well, I’d rather use gas than damage the battery. Gas = $3 a gallon+, battery = $10,000+.


  4. BillR
    Vote -1 Vote +1BillR     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:46 am

    For myself, I wouldn’t want the “limp home” feature. The battery pack will be too expensive to replace. I wouldn’t let the gas tank get that low.

    Unlike others on this forum, I don’t expect the Volt to totally eliminate my oil use, just reduce my consumption by about a factor of 5.


  5. FME III
    +1 Vote -1 Vote +1FME III     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:47 am

    I think #3 Ignatius put his finger on it.

    Besides, it’s not like this is a step down from what we currently have. If you run out of gas in a regular car, there’s no such thing as a limp home mode.

    PS: I found it annoying that Kruse chose to answer Lyle’s questions with a question. It’s a non-answer. He comes across as a smart ass, or evasive. That’s outside the norm of what we’ve seen from the Volt team.


  6. dagwood55
    Vote -1 Vote +1dagwood55     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:50 am

    Would you want do buy a used Volt knowing that the owner could have used the limp home mode on multiple occasions?


  7. Rashiid Amul
    Vote -1 Vote +1Rashiid Amul     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:52 am

    Limp home doesn’t seem to be necessary.
    I wouldn’t want to risk the battery life for maybe a dollar’s worth of gas.


  8. Rashiid Amul
    Vote -1 Vote +1Rashiid Amul     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:56 am

    5 FME III says,
    PS: I found it annoying that Kruse chose to answer Lyle’s questions with a question. It’s a non-answer. He comes across as a smart ass, or evasive. That’s outside the norm of what we’ve seen from the Volt team.
    ———–
    I have to agree. Especially with the regards to the answer for the second question. Perhaps Mr. Kruse was very tired or sick? He is not normally that pompous.
    But then again, it is difficult to show feelings in a forum like this.
    We might just be reading it wrong.


  9. Bearclaw
    Vote -1 Vote +1Bearclaw     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:59 am

    As a motorcycle rider I’m used to using my reserve tank if necessary to get to the station. If the ICE won’t start I’d like to limp home so I don’t have to pay a tow truck to get 1 mile at low speed to the next outlet. I see this as a safety feature and should not void the warranty.

    Now one step further. Volt A won’t start. Volt B arrives and charges Volt A enough to get home. We have talked about vehicle to grid. Has Volt to Volt charging ever been discussed as an option? Maybe in Volt 2.0.


  10. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:03 am

    The Volt should not commit suicide because the driver was stupid, unless it meant the driver would be killed instead!!!

    Remember the three laws of robotics??? (Do a google…)

    Running out of gas does not place the driver in immediate danger, it just means the driver has to make a phone call or walk a bit to get some gas, which is exactly what we do in our current vehicles.

    This is just another example of people demanding that someone else look out for them, and not wanting to take responsibility for their actions…………….

    If you can’t tell from this post, I am against this option, unless it placed the driver and passengers in immediate danger of death.

    #9 above: Why go through all of that, when all you need is a galon of gas?????


  11. MDDave
    Vote -1 Vote +1MDDave     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:03 am

    Rashiid, Ignatius and all, this feature isn’t intended to save you a few dollars on gas, it’s intended to save you from the aggravation, danger and expense of being stuck on the side of the road.

    Having said that, I agree that it is a totally unnecessary feature–just watch the fuel gauges like you do in any other vehicle.


  12. highland
    Vote -1 Vote +1highland     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:16 am

    How about we have the car be very “verbal” about your need for “fuel” bet that electricity or fossil before you would ever need this silly limp home mode.

    I’ve ridden motorcycles for 20 years and I must admit that I only ever used the reserve 1 time and that was during my first 3 months of riding.

    I wouldn’t want or expect to ever need a Limp Mode.


  13. Bearclaw
    Vote -1 Vote +1Bearclaw     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:16 am

    #10
    Jim I Says:

    If you can’t tell from this post, I am against this option, unless it placed the driver and passengers in immediate danger of death.
    #9 above: Why go through all of that, when all you need is a galon of gas?????

    Maybe we don’t need to limp home, but. I’m wondering about what the car will do and what I can do if the ICE won’t start – no gas, bad gas, no spark etc. Not just b/c I’m careless and let it run out of gas.

    Just don’t want to be found on road dead. like you I think.


  14. joe obrien
    Vote -1 Vote +1joe obrien     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:23 am

    There shouldn’t be one because lazy people will just be ruining their batteries because the majority of the sheep who mindlessly just drove, are incredibly lazy. They run their vehicles out of fuel by sheer stupidity and laziness.

    We shouldn’t be contributing to keep breeding MORE laziness. If it runs out of gas because you were too dumb to use the fuel gauge, then pay to have it towed, and maybe they’ll lean to not drive it when empty.


  15. xed
    Vote -1 Vote +1xed     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:27 am

    I can see it both ways.

    [1] – If you run out of gas in the ICE car you and everyone else drives right now then your “limp home” mode is you getting out of the car and limping home so it’s really no change from what we’re used to. (i.e. don’t run out of gas idiot)

    [2] – If the ICE in the Volt will not start for whatever reason (no gas, no spark, demons, etc.) and there’s still usable charge in the battery that would allow you to drive the vehicle and you’re in a sketchy situation (it’s dark outside and you’re parked at camp Crystal Lake and you would really really really like to not have to hoof it out of there) then yes I could see the need for a big red button that says “If you want to drive this car right now you hereby risk voiding your GM battery warranty”.

    - Xed


  16. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:28 am

    How much does OnStar cost? That could be an expensive gallon of gas.


  17. Neil
    Vote -1 Vote +1Neil     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:31 am

    Nope, no limp mode needed. I’d imagine that in good conditions the solar roof would be enough to help a bit after a time (if you had purchased the option).


  18. pbennett45
    Vote -1 Vote +1pbennett45     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:31 am

    For me, no. I have a +40mile/day commute and probably always will, by virtue of the fact that I like urban settings and engineering companies tend to like places where they can get cheap space and lots of it. So I would probably always use the range extender for 10-20 miles a day and hence always pay attention to the gas gauge. However, I could see how someone running pure electric 90% of the time because their commute is 18 miles each way might like this. They probably would pay littel attention to the gas gauge, and that day they happened to drive 5 miles out for lunch, this might be useful if they forgot they didn’t have any gas because they hadn’t burned gas in a month.


  19. Dave B
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave B     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:33 am

    @ 9, a reserve tank on a car? First, never heard of such a thing. There aren’t reliable gas gages on motorcycles like on cars, which is why there is a reserve. Second, the gas range-extender IS the reserve tank in my book. The Volt is a commuter car.

    This car is not keeping to the premise of KISS methods. Shame. More expensive, more complex, an more to break.


  20. max_headroom
    Vote -1 Vote +1max_headroom     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:39 am

    I have been driving for 28 years and have never run out of gas. Don’t put a feature like this in my Volt, I don’t need it and don’t want it! Like others have said, people need to take responsibility for their own actions (or in this case, inactions).


  21. CDAVIS
    Vote -1 Vote +1CDAVIS     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:45 am

    _____________________________________________________
    KISS
    _____________________________________________________


  22. Bearclaw
    Vote -1 Vote +1Bearclaw     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:48 am

    19. Dave B Says:

    @ 9, a reserve tank on a car? First, never heard of such a thing. There aren’t reliable gas gages on motorcycles like on cars, which is why there is a reserve. Second, the gas range-extender IS the reserve tank in my book. The Volt is a commuter car.
    This car is not keeping to the premise of KISS methods. Shame. More expensive, more complex, an more to break.

    Sorry should have clarified. I was suggesting a battery reserve not a gas reserve if the ICE is broken. I know people seem to think this is a million to one and it probably is. Just interested in what if.

    I agree with you about KISS. This car should be idiot proof so maybe a firm line should be drawn for us boundary crossers and limit testers.


  23. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:50 am

    This feature will definitely not be available on the car. It was something they would say ’sure’ to when they first started out…but the cold hand of logic has them now.

    It is similar to the, ‘it is going to go 40 miles at the start…and 40 miles at the end of life,’ they are cutting every cornor they can to squeeze everything they can out of this battery.
    ———
    Here is the problem, I have never owned a car longer than 5 years…I just don’t do it. I don’t like old cars, I get bored of my cars, I don’t like wasting my time jostling back and forth getting my cars fixed. Most new car buyers are exactly like me in this respect…GM knows this.

    Now when/if I buy a shiny new Volt, I know I’m probably only driving it 5 years max and I also know my battery is warranted for 10 years. I am going to be punching the ‘big red button’ for more mileage EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    Even if by some magic I love the car…and I do own the car 7, 8, 9, 10 years…I don’t care about pack conservation, I want that battery dead!

    If GM is costing in two batterys to the price of each new Volt, I am going to do my darndest to get that second battery installed into by car before the warranty is up.

    Basically, that is what GM is doing to us right now in reverse…they are costing in two packs, but trying everything they can to make sure they never have to deliver pack #2.

    If I own the car in year 9 and that battery is still limping in at 40 miles, I’m going to do everything in my power to get a new battery put into that thing. I would quick charge that thing and drain it 3-4 times a day, then turn it on just to see it die…I want that pack I paid for.

    As a matter of fact, you can bet the quick charger will be installed at my house and my work on day 1…and I will be attempting to get 2-3 charges a day out of that thing, it just makes sense…not only do I get the gas savings, but I get the new pack I already paid for down the road rather than me springing 8K for it.

    It would not surprise me to see GM considering killing the ‘quick charger’ altogether (or at least making it a really expensive option), after all its main purpose is multiple daily uses…and that works against GM’s best interest.


  24. DT
    Vote -1 Vote +1DT     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:50 am

    I don’t think there should be a “limp home” mode, but maybe just a “limp to the side of the road out of the way of traffic mode”. Maybe just about 100 feet. If there’s a kid in the car with a stupid parent, I’d at least like to give the kid a chance to get off the highway. I’d even be okay with voiding the warranty.


  25. Exp_EngTech
    Vote -1 Vote +1Exp_EngTech     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:55 am

    Don’t mess with the battery, period.

    I would suggest to GM that they should always reserve .5 gallons of fuel for the ICE for a restricted access “limp home’ mode.

    The standard “Low Fuel” indicator would come on at say, 1.5 gallons. A “Critical Fuel Alert” would come on at 1.0 gallons. Allow the Battery/ICE control system to tap into say, up to .5 gallons of that 1.0, and flash a dashboard light / sound a chime now and then when doing so. Announce (ahead of time) that the car will stop after the .5 gallon is depleted (countdown miles on monitor). Car is now setting at the side of the road. The fuel gauge reads “0″ but the car actually has .5 gallons in the tank.

    ONLY AFTER THE CAR IS STOPPED, allow the driver to now tap that remaining reserved .5 gallons. Access could be through a menu that isn’t presented until the system knows it only has .5 gallons in the tank. When driving on that last .5 gallons, the visual and audible reminders could be amusing. Play an animated GIF of a person walking down a stretch of deserted road (cactus…cattle skulls). A roadside sign mentions xx miles to next fuel station.


  26. jjski78
    Vote -1 Vote +1jjski78     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:08 am

    Just install bitching betty like we have on our military aircraft. I guarantee you people will stop to fill their tank if they have to listen to her yappin.


  27. Bearclaw
    Vote -1 Vote +1Bearclaw     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:09 am

    23. statik Says: If GM is costing in two batterys to the price of each new Volt, I am going to do my darndest to get that second battery installed into by car before the warranty is up.

    That’s pretty dark. I never thought of doing that. I wonder if that kind of mentality is part of why american cars have higher repair rates. Am I the kind of person that buys american and will beat my car into the ground and treat it like crap because I’m entitled to have a good product replaced. I hope not. I guess it kind of depends if they really are building in a battery replacement in the cost of the car.


  28. carcus
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:15 am

    Kruse effectively answered “no” three times.

    Why in the world would you risk your battery instead of waiting 45 minutes for someone to bring you a gallon of gas?

    — unless you were cruising western detroit or east St. Louis — then it might make sense to sacrifice your $10,000 battery.


  29. MC
    Vote -1 Vote +1MC     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:17 am

    How is this different than the “almost home” feature possibility we discussed awhile back? That’s letting the battery run under a bit (to save gas), right?


  30. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:17 am

    The limp home red button is a silly idea and is unnecessary. Just call the AAA 800 number and they will bring you some gas.


  31. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:34 am

    Not for me, thanks Statik for having all the arguments,

    JC


  32. TCook
    Vote -1 Vote +1TCook     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:35 am

    I really dont see the need for a Limp home mode. With the way cars are now, beeping every 5 minutes when the range says 50 miles until empty, how many people are actually running out of gas?? I know I am not. I wouldn’t want to chance damaging the battery using it that way. I will be one that has to use the ICE on a regualy basis. The 40 mile range wont even get me to work, much less home.

    I just want the car on the market!! Every little bit I can use electric instead of gas, bring us closer to a cleaner environment for us and future generations.

    BYW, I have solar panels on my roof that supply all my electric in my home, which is grid-tied so the electric company has to pay me!!!! The Volt will cost me nothing to charge!


  33. George
    Vote -1 Vote +1George     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:36 am

    he does sound sarcastic, but that could simply be because text has a tone we put to it. His tone could have been more light hearted in the actual conversation. IE banter between two people who know each other well. I don’t think that the idea of a limp home mode, in of itself, is necessarily bad. If used often, it would affect the life of the battery, but if used rarely it would not adversely affect the life of the battery. I think that, depending on the situation, it might be better to have a limp home mode than call for a gallon of gas. There should be an option in the panel, and a warning when it is selected stating that using this feature may cause the life of your battery to be shortened and may void your battery warranty. The car is about options after all, right?


  34. carcus
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:37 am

    — unless you were cruising western detroit or east St. Louis — then it might make sense to sacrifice your $10,000 battery.

    __________________________________________________

    Or maybe it’s 2020 and the whole country has gone all “Mad Max” already. “Your Lithiums or your Life, punk!”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khffg8xUbYQ&feature=related


  35. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:39 am

    This feature is not going to be available. I’ve been questioning this seemingly PR-inspired contradiction (not the Volt itself, but the “limp home”) feature for months.

    I never realized that people were intending NOT to have gas in their Volt. It seems obvious to me that you will be frequently required to use gas with the Volt and therefore you will NEED to have gas in the tank at all times.


  36. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:41 am

    #17 Neil

    Nope, no limp mode needed. I’d imagine that in good conditions the solar roof would be enough to help a bit after a time (if you had purchased the option).
    ——————————————————
    This is the kind of thing that solar engergy supporters do that drives me nuts. They “imagine” that solar is a high density energy source that is poised to have a practical effect on our needs. Lutz addressed this issue, he stated it would take a couple of weeks to get a useful charge.


  37. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:46 am

    #25 Exp

    ONLY AFTER THE CAR IS STOPPED, allow the driver to now tap that remaining reserved .5 gallons. Access could be through a menu that isn’t presented until the system knows it only has .5 gallons in the tank. When driving on that last .5 gallons, the visual and audible reminders could be amusing. Play an animated GIF of a person walking down a stretch of deserted road (cactus…cattle skulls). A roadside sign mentions xx miles to next fuel station.
    ————————————————————————–
    Just pointing out that this solution is not unique to a PHEV. If this were a good idea, you could put it on all new cars.


  38. MDDave
    Vote -1 Vote +1MDDave     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:51 am

    #36 Tom H,

    Indeed… You will be lucky if the solar roof on the Volt can power the radio. It’s not going to move the car in real time. If you want to wait 3 hours so you can drive a couple hundred yards, then I suppose that’s up to you. And be prepared to camp out if it’s night time.


  39. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:56 am

    This is an interesting engineering question.

    To many people limp home would be a useful and appreciated feature if it saves them a tow truck call which can easily kill a couple of hours, either because of running out of gas, or because of ICE failure. Since gas gauges show zero when you can still go 20 miles, running out of gas is still a common occurance.

    The Volt will have the capability on board to support this feature, if GM decides to program the computer to allow it. But GM risks big warranty claims if it allows people to do deep discharges whenever they feel the need.

    What if you only do it about 3 times? Does that significantly shorten battery life, or do you need a couple of hundred deep discharges to lose 5% of battery life?

    Clearly, GM could get that data (might take a year or two of testing). If a small number of deep discharges is OK, then why not offer 3 mulligans. Your fourth limp home, and everyone thereafter cuts a year off of your batter warranty. The computer could easily track how many limps you did.


  40. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:56 am

    Maybe you can just buy a 5000′ extension cord instead.


  41. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:03 am

    #27 Bearclaw

    23. statik Says: If GM is costing in two batterys to the price of each new Volt, I am going to do my darndest to get that second battery installed into by car before the warranty is up.

    That’s pretty dark. I never thought of doing that. I wonder if that kind of mentality is part of why american cars have higher repair rates. Am I the kind of person that buys american and will beat my car into the ground and treat it like crap because I’m entitled to have a good product replaced. I hope not. I guess it kind of depends if they really are building in a battery replacement in the cost of the car.
    ———————————————–

    I guess I am not high on GM’s ‘lets give this guy a Volt list,’ lol.

    Lutz is already on the record for costing in a replacement pack on every car they sell. For the record, I am not harsh on my cars, I don’t look to break something because I know it will be fixed for free. I am rarely seen at my dealership.

    I think the difference is knowing that you have pre-paid for something that ‘could’ go wrong….and that the person who sold it to you is doing everything in their power to not have to give you what you have already paid for and pocket that money.

    For the record I am not harsh on my cars, I drive reasonably and do all the maintenance. I would not be ‘harsh’ on my Volt either…but lets just say I will be ‘maximizing’ the main selling feature of the car as often as I possibly can.

    The only reason we are getting the ‘kiddie gloves’ on the battery…things like the ‘intellectual property’ of 40 miles start of life/end of life, the limited 40 mile range and now the loss of the ‘limp home button’ is the maindated 10 year/150 warranty in several states. They are doing everything they can to squeeze the original pack to the finish line.

    Without this forced 10year/150m warranty issue I think you would see the Volt using a lot more of its pack capacity and getting more like 60 miles range out of the box easily (and the ‘limp’ button). They are building in as many redundancies as they can to get to the finish line on pack 1.

    The warranty I believe is actually hurting us in this case…it certainly is for the average new car buyer that changes rides every 3-5 years.

    I know I’d rather have a basic 4yr/60m warranty and pay $8,000 less and get the full benefit of the battery pack…most would still get a good 8-9 years of optimal performance and they can decide for themselves what to do when the battery range starts to drain down.

    /maybe while GM is lobbying congress about everything else they should mention having a even playing field on the warranty of electric cars to ICE….thats is like another whole rebate check


  42. Dennis Acevedo
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dennis Acevedo     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:15 am

    I say no if it is going to damage the battery. I think a good analogy for the “limp-home” feature would be driving on a flat tire, and ruining your rims.


  43. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:15 am

    The question I’d like to ask is what happens with your current car when you run out of gas? There’s no safety line there except a gas container, a gas station and pedestrian mode.

    I think that one of the things people are going to have to get used to is always having a little gas/ethanol in the tank. Not just for emergencies, but because for longevity of the ICE it will have to be run from time to time.


  44. KUD
    Vote -1 Vote +1KUD     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:18 am

    My Vote. No way. I can read a Gas Gauge. In my 34 years of driving I only ran out once and that was because of a broken Gas Gauge.


  45. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:22 am

    A better question would be:

    What if there is a main battery failure?

    Is there a limp home mode bypassing the main battery and using the back-up generator straight to the electric motor?


  46. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:31 am

    Tim #45

    Yes I believe there is. Nasaman has mentioned this several times on this site because this is exactly what he asked Andrew Farah at Volt Nation. Perhaps he’ll jump in on that, but essentially he asked Farah if either system fails batt or ICE will the car function to get you home, and the answer is yes.
    This is yet another reason to use a bus system since if in RE mode the ICE were supplying the battery this fail safe mode wouldn’t work.


  47. ksuhwail
    Vote -1 Vote +1ksuhwail     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:33 am

    While I think a limp home mode is just silly the issue does raise a good point. I thought most cars have about 1 gallon in reserve beyond “E” on the gas gauge. Maybe having an extra couple miles of electric range hidden for reserve isn’t a bad idea.

    I have been in situations when on trips where I didn’t know where a gas station was and have pushed the limit on my car. I’m sure situations like this happen periodically.

    On another note, since the Volt will come with Navigation, would it be possible for the car to realize that you have “X” amount of miles left of driving capability (Gas/Electric) and notify you of gas stations close by so you won’t be stranded?

    Something like…You have “X” amount of range left but a gas station is within “X-1″ miles…A stop is critical.

    Make this feature optional in the setting of the display and a person can choose to follow the navigation to a gas station or decide to ignore it since they are close to home.

    I think this would be a nice idea if you are below 25 or 50 miles of compelete range.

    Any Takers?


  48. Pat
    Vote -1 Vote +1Pat     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:38 am

    Since it something that is not desirable from a battery life point of view, then use the strength of the technology and have On-Star do an automatic look up of the closest service station before it runs out of gas. In other words, when the low fuel warning goes on show where the closest station is and guide the user to it. If there is no station within driving distance then On-Star will ask permission to call in for service delivery of fuel.

    P


  49. Fahrvergnugen Fanboy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Fahrvergnugen Fanboy     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:42 am

    Increasingly obnoxious low-fuel warnings should be enough for anyone.

    After that comes “walk home” mode.


  50. Jim75
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim75     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:45 am

    Here is a scenario:

    It is night, winter, -20 or lower with windshill, no cell phone and you are 2 miles from the next town, the ICE stops working, you have gas but something fails. What is your life worth compared to the battery?
    Would running it down once or twice over the lifetime of the vehicle really ruin it??? I have never run out of gas in my life, 33, however I have had my car break down a couple of miles from a town. If I had the juice in the battery to limp home and I was forced to walk it I would be furious. The gas tank with a reserve that you can’t use is good analagy. Why?? Electronically limit it through software to x times over the life of the battery, play a message that says to the user that they will be using the emergency reserve using it x more time voids the warranty.


  51. Frank D
    Vote -1 Vote +1Frank D     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Here in CA we have AAA…next!


  52. Adam
    Vote -1 Vote +1Adam     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Only if they make a limp-mode for the current car I drive. In addition they should make a “hobble-home mode” for those who go outside the “limp-mode”. Actually a “crawl home without legs mode” after the hobble-home mode is depleted would make me feel the safest.

    Apparently a guage on the dashboard telling you how much further you have to travel is not enough. It doesn’t matter what you do, some people fail to plan their day – that’s what tow trucks are for.


  53. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:56 am

    If there is no station within driving distance then On-Star will ask permission to call in for service delivery of fuel.

    Here in CA we have AAA…next!
    —————————————————
    I still think we need limp home because to me, both of these suggestions are good ones, but not always adequate. An AAA service call can kill a couple of hours. An there are very few service stations any more. They are mostly gas stations/convenience stores staffed by one person who cannot leave to bring you your gas.


  54. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:57 am

    23. statik Says: If GM is costing in two batterys to the price of each new Volt, I am going to do my darndest to get that second battery installed into by car before the warranty is up.
    ——————–
    So does that mean you’d try to destroy the powertrain on all of the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty cars now, so that you get the extra powertrain that you paid for?

    Do you intentionally try to make yourself sick so you get all the health insurance that you are paying for?


  55. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:58 am

    Here in CA we have AAA…next!
    ————————————————-
    PS… have you guys ever heard of the AAAAA? Its for drunks who drive.


  56. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:01 am

    Adam # 52

    “It doesn’t matter what you do, some people fail to plan their day”

    *** *** ***

    As I’ve already stated, this is absolutely correct. There is no way to protect people from their own misjudgment. This car will already have a fail safe mode where the car can get you home if either the ICE or the batt fails, that should be enough. The more unnecessarily complicated you make this vehicle the more you push Murphy’s law.


  57. carcus
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:07 am

    Jim #75

    “It is night, winter, -20 or lower with windshill, no cell phone and you are 2 miles from the next town, the ICE stops working, you have gas but something fails . . . . .”

    ______________________________________

    Not to mention:

    . . . . there’s a guy with a hockey mask and a bloody hatchet crawling out of the ditch, AND you look up to see a house sized flaming meteor falling straight towards you and your hamstrung volt!

    Lithium-ion Battery Life and Death
    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/lithium-ion-battery2.htm

    “Lithium-ion battery packs are expensive, so if you want to make yours to last longer, here are some things to keep in mind:
    Lithium ion chemistry prefers partial discharge to deep discharge, so it’s best to avoid taking the battery all the way down to zero. Since lithium-ion chemistry does not have a “memory”, you do not harm the battery pack with a partial discharge. If the voltage of a lithium-ion cell drops below a certain level, it’s ruined.”


  58. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:08 am

    I think post #`s 47 and 48 have a better idea than a limp home mode.

    Now off thread. I see the worry about the life of the battery and the built in cost of a replacement as negative points to most as they decide as to buying the volt or not. I would strongly urge GM to give a 75,000 mile free warrenty on the battery and then allow for options of 10,000 more miles of warrenty at a cost of $1,000.00 per increment up to a max. of 155,000 miles. Be assured, I would not purchase additional miles of battery warrenty. I think the cost of a replacement battery will be way down by the time I have driven my Volt 75,000 miles. And I think the replacement will get more than 40 miles per charge.


  59. GOK
    Vote -1 Vote +1GOK     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:18 am

    Bike pedals for passengers would make more sense. :^)


  60. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:18 am

    On-Star should be modified to provide space-based solar power to stranded Volts. Wikipedia says,

    “Space-based solar power is the conversion of solar energy into power…from a location in space…Photovoltaics (PV) would generally be utilized for energy conversion and microwave technology could be applied for wireless energy transmission through space, and to the…” Volt’s battery.

    On-Star: I see that you don’t have enough fuel or battery to get you home. Put on your foil hat, an energy beam will commence in 30 seconds.


  61. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:21 am

    I think the cost of a replacement battery will be way down by the time I have driven my Volt 75,000 miles. And I think the replacement will get more than 40 miles per charge.
    ————————————————————————

    Lutz stated that the high thirties price includes 100% of the cost of a replacement battery. If we take this to be a correct statement, rather than Bob just giving a quick off the cuff answer, it gives us some interesting price vs cost data.

    It seems likely that the percentage of batteries which fail within 100k miles will be much lower than 100%. If for the sake of argument 30% fail and each one costs $10k, then GM has $7000 more profit built into the car than the nominal planned profit based on 100% warranty failure.

    I suspect that while they are cranking out 10k cars per year, they will keep the price up, and capture that profit. The extra $70 million will not save GM, but it will certainly make the program look good. When production capacity rises, there will be some incentive to cut the price somewhat, but what will really drive the price down to be correlated with the cost of production will be competition.

    So with no technological advance at all, the price could fall to $29k. If batteries go down to 5K you get a price of $24k, which is not a terrible price for a 100 MPGe car.


  62. Aspherical
    Vote -1 Vote +1Aspherical     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:23 am

    #60 ThombDbhomb

    “On-Star: I see that you don’t have enough fuel or battery to get you home. Put on your foil hat, an energy beam will commence in 30 seconds.”

    Good idea! Will the foil hat be included with the Volt or sold as an accessory? :)


  63. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:28 am

    I don’t need it.

    KISS

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!


  64. Cautious Fan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Cautious Fan     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:28 am

    #23 Static

    Wow. Pretty harsh there man. You having an off day? GM could prorate the battery pack warranty. They might also only replace with a similar performance battery. I hear where you’re coming from, but if GM took either of these measures, I’d change course

    Didn’t you install solar panels on your home? Overcycling a battery would definitely be wasting resources. Better to let GM just pocket some extra profits and get more firms in the market.


  65. Fahrvergnugen Fanboy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Fahrvergnugen Fanboy     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:28 am

    The On-Star black helicopters will come with a big magnet and airlift you to the nearest gas station.


  66. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:32 am

    #60 Thombdbhomb:

    Now you’re talking! If we can do that, why plug the !@#$% thing in at all? Or have a “range extender” along for the ride.

    Massive solar farms in space beam energy down to tinfoil hat equipped Volts. Energy crisis over. Thombdbhomb for President!


  67. carcus
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:32 am

    #60 ThombD…

    There’s gotta be a lot of stress at that On-star control center. Wonder how they handle it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwyrGwM4a7M&feature=related


  68. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:33 am

    #62 Aspherical
    I rushed my idea out before it was ready…I’m issuing a recall on the foil hats and swapping them out for rubber hats. I’m sorry for those whose brains I scrambled. But, it probably didn’t make much difference since your the type that lets your battery and fuel run out.


  69. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:36 am

    #49 & #65 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy:

    LOL X 2. You guys are on a roll today. Keep ‘em coming!

    BTW, that TDI Jetta with the 6 speed automatic is looking better and better every day, especially as the Cruze recedes into the distance.


  70. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:38 am

    No on the limp mode.

    Keep the Volt sticker price as low as possible. No unnecessary testing, no frivolous bells needed, no tech chic whistles needed.

    Priority one is to get the Volt on the road ASAP. Priority two is to make it affordable to buy and to own. And priority three is to produce tens of thousands of Volts during the first full year production run.

    Keep it simple and don’t get cute

    =D~


  71. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:44 am

    #54 kdawg

    So does that mean you’d try to destroy the powertrain on all of the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty cars now, so that you get the extra powertrain that you paid for?

    Do you intentionally try to make yourself sick so you get all the health insurance that you are paying for?
    ———————————–
    Obviously I wouldn’t do that, heeh.

    The powertrain and other ‘under warranty items’ are different. Warranty in those cases are given to cover issues on parts that should last in excess of the warranty issue.

    There is a certain premium baked into the car that you pay to have this, like ‘insurance,’ which I have no issue with at all.

    This is exactly like your example of, ‘do you make yourself sick because you have health insurance?’–I do not of course, I pay for ‘insurance’ in case of accident…I do not pay $200,000 for a future heart transplant ahead of time because there is some likely hood I may need a new heart…no one would buy insurance if it worked like that.

    The battery issue is different. In this case you are paying up front, a 100% of the cost of a item regardless if you use it or not. It is paid for…by you. Now GM, having that cash in their pocket knows that if they can squeeze the original pack life through the warranty period…they get to keep that money.

    So why then if you don’t end up using it should you have to pay for it? At the very least, at the 10 year point if you have not blown your original pack, you should be entitled to the swap out for the new one you have already paid for. (I realize that suggestion is as likely as Ralph Nader becoming the next president).

    I’m a ‘fair and balance’ kind of guy in my transactions, I will pay good money for a good product…I’m not looking to rip anyone off, but I expect to get what I pay for.


  72. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:48 am

    GM could prorate the battery pack warranty. They might also only replace with a similar performance battery.
    ————————–
    Still thinking about the warranty issue. There are several options, but I am not sure which ones would work.

    1. Give you a brand new battery if yours wears out, even if you have 90k miles. I guess this is the scenario Statik is looking at. That would be tough financially on GM.
    2. Prorate your battery life. For example, you go 70k miles, and your $10k battery fails. You get $3k. I dont think this would work, because if you have a car that will not go without a $10k battery, $3k does not make you whole. You would have to put in $7k of your own money to get back on the road, which is speculative for a $70k mile car.
    3. Give you $10k, or prorated value of the whole car, which ever is lower. For example, you go 90k miles and battery fails. A brand new battery seems unfair to GM, but a $1k warranty payment is unfair to you. But if you got $3.7k, which is 10% of the price of the car, it is equivilent to writing the whole car off, because it did not reach 100k. You could use the money to buy a new battery for your old car, buy a new car, or get a scooter. I think this is logical, but perhaps too complex for the market place.
    4. As suggested above, provide a battery with just enough life to get you to 10k miles. Is there really a way to do this? The battery has to have the same KWh storage and KW output as a new one,


  73. Aspherical
    Vote -1 Vote +1Aspherical     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Hehe, I remember an episode of Seinfeld where Kramer wants see how far a car can travel before running out of gas, so he “test drives” a car until it stalls. He then says he doesn’t want the car and walks out, leaving the car salesman and car stranded on the side of the road. Anyone here willing to try that when the Volt comes out and report back to us on how far you got?


  74. Carl Covey
    Vote -1 Vote +1Carl Covey     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:57 am

    Very interesting problem. No one, not even GM, can anticipate possible emergency conditions that use of the remaining battery charge might save lives. Such as, stranded in a sudden blizzard where a couple of extra hours of heat after fuel exhaustion might prevent death from hypothermia.

    The integral use of OnStar is apparent. I have had it in a previous Chevrolet and it works perfect but was pricey. If it is included as part of the life of the car, it is the best medium to make decisions whereby an owner might be willing to forgo warranty in an emergency.

    I agree that careless fuel exhaustion could be minimized with OnStar warnings but people still choose to push to a station. No way would I give up a warranty on batteries to save a walk to the station!

    =D~~~~~~~~~Carl Covey~~~~~~~~~~~~~(NPNS)


  75. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Last I checked, the official list price of the car (or its breakdown) has not been announced, but we have 2 years to fill, so speculate away.


  76. Xzlon
    Vote -1 Vote +1Xzlon     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Given the choice of a Volt with an emergency bypass switch and one without I will take the one with the switch. Reason: not that I worry about running out of gas as in 60 years it has happened about twice and one of them was when pulling into my driveway at 3:30 AM when no stations were open. No, what I want is the ability to pull out of the traffic lane or to the next off-ramp when the ICE fails. The probability of that happening is likely more than that of running out of gas. I don’t know that much about battery life but I am not convinced that one discharge below 20% is going to hurt battery life. I will even sign the disclaimer.


  77. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:06 am

    #64 cautious fan

    Static:
    Wow. Pretty harsh there man. You having an off day? GM could prorate the battery pack warranty. They might also only replace with a similar performance battery. I hear where you’re coming from, but if GM took either of these measures, I’d change course

    Didn’t you install solar panels on your home? Overcycling a battery would definitely be wasting resources. Better to let GM just pocket some extra profits and get more firms in the market.
    —————————

    I know, I know…I like to poke at the soft underbelly of discussions like this. I did install panels on my home…but it is grid tied, so I’m not using batteries to retain the power I generate (and I didn’t buy extra batteries and then leave them at the ’solar store’ in case I need them).

    To me, ideally I want my original battery to last however long, then get the battery that I paid for to last another 8-9 years. Obviously, GM is not proposing this, so I would like my battery ‘warranty replaced’ at year 9ish. (I don’t like the word ‘warranty’ in this case).

    The reality is this. Most Volts are going to push over the 10 year mark without getting a new pack probably, GM will keep the profit on them. Some packs will die/diminish at year 9,10…most probably in year 11,12ish

    At that time, the car is likely in pretty bad shape, I doubt people are going to pay to have the car ripped apart and a new pack put in out of their own pockets at this point, even if the pack is down to $4,000 manufacturer cost…it is probably still alot more for the consumer to have it done by Mr. Goodwrench, probably $8Kish.

    I don’t see a alot of people even considering this kind of repair on a decade+ year old car, at that point these cars will either be scrapped or just used as a standard ICE (if it is still functional), which is pretty wasteful too.

    In theory, the batteries that die in ‘warranty period’ will be the cars that last the longest…and those are the ones that will have some value left in them (for either resale or for driving) after 10 years.

    /whew that was long…that is just my train of thought on it, I’m not as evil as I admit I sound in this thread, lol

    Best case would still be to have the state legislated ‘warranty’ withdrawn…it is a real stumbling block to getting affordable EVs on the road. I know why they did it…to stop companies from taking advantage of the uninformed and putting lead batteries on deep cycles in their cars, that won’t last more than a year or two. Perhaps some kind of pack certification process to make it exempt from the law?


  78. John
    Vote -1 Vote +1John     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:11 am

    I’d definitely prefer that the emphasis be on the safety and long life of my battery. Just push the OnStar button in an emergency like in any other GM car (and keep gas in your car)! Duh!


  79. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:12 am

    Can you say “range anxiety” :) Especially given how relatively small the Volt’s range is once you are past charge depletion (remember they cut the gas tank(s) size in half from what was originally planned).


  80. Adrian
    Vote -1 Vote +1Adrian     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:18 am

    No. It is better to force people to make sure they fill up the ‘backup’ tank of gas anyway. If you are scared of running empty on both, get OnStar. These extra features, would drive the $$ upwards.

    Vote agianst Socialism/Marxism, vote McCain-Republican this Tuesday.


  81. The Grump
    Vote -1 Vote +1The Grump     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:18 am

    #72 Tom H says – 1. Give you a brand new battery if yours wears out, even if you have 90k miles. I guess this is the scenario Statik is looking at. That would be tough financially on GM.
    ——————————-
    Tough on gm? TOUGH ON GM ??!!?? How about car payments of between $600.00 and $700.00 for the Volt being tough on us ? It sounds to me like Statik (unlike the rest of the GM fanboys here) knows when he’s being suckered by GM. I’m sure GM likes the idea of $10,000.00 profit per unit, but I’m not too thrilled about it.

    Gm at worst should contract out for “battery insurance” instead of adding a second battery to the cost of the Volt. No wonder the Volt’s so expensive (for an economy car).

    At that price, I’ll wait on the Chrysler EV minivan – more room, same AER. But don’t let me rain on your Volt parade – if you want to save gas, the Volt is your car. If you want to save money, well, you may want to reconsider your choice.


  82. whynot
    Vote -1 Vote +1whynot     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Not a fan of limp home as described. However a better choice might be that the volt doesn’t let the battery be minimum when it runs out of gas.

    In order to run out of gas, the volt would have to be running in “hybrid” mode. That is using gas to charge the batteries (since it had already used up its full charge). More than likely, the batteries would actually be charged above the redline in this mode (as a normal hybrid does) from things such as regenerative braking etc. Simply having the controller recognize that the tank is very empty (e.g. less than 10 miles till empty), the volt could choose to not turn the ICE off but to purposefully try and charge the batteries with what’s left (that is use extra gas). Your “limp home” would then be whatever you’ve got left on electric. From what I was told about my hybrid, this is actually what it will do if it runs out of gas. It will run until the battery hits its redline discharge, then it will turn off (I was also told not to try it as its very bad for the engine).

    The idea behind this is that at very low gas, any reasonable driver should be looking for a station. However, because the volt has electric if you “use up” your gas quicker you might actually get a better result. If you found a station before using up the gas, you’ve just got a little more battery for the rest of your travel. If you don’t, you’ve purposefully primed an electric limp mode to keep you going and use the other electric generation features of the vehicle to their maximum extent without hurting the battery.

    This type of mode could be very beneficial with a solar panel version since you can continue to gain some electricity to charge the batteries as you limp.


  83. Keith Twombley
    Vote -1 Vote +1Keith Twombley     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:48 am

    What about both?

    have a big warning that says your warranty doesn’t cover frequently limping-home. Then when the user activates the feature, record it in the car’s computer. that way the user can get out of those emergency situations, but if they try getting their battery replaced after killing it via frequent limping Chevy can tell.


  84. Amazed
    Vote -1 Vote +1Amazed     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:56 am

    It’s good to see most people are willing to take responsibility for their actions and will pay the penalty of waiting at the side of the road for a gallon of gas if they run out. But it amazes me the number of people who still want to be totally taken care of. Really, should the Volt be responsible for guiding you to a gas station when your fuel gauge reads low? Perhaps we should take it a step further and when the car’s clock notices that it is 10:00pm it looks for nearby hotels and Onstar books you a room. Perhaps at 8:00am, 12:00pm and 6:00pm the car looks for nearby restaurants and Onstar calls ahead to pre order your meal. Maybe we can have the Volt learn your commute time and if you don’t start the car by your usual time on a weekday morning the horn goes off constantly so make sure you are aware that you might be late for work. Perhaps when we get Internet connected fridges your fridge can talk to your Volt and the Volt will guide you to the nearest grocery store when you fridge detects you are low on milk.


  85. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:58 am

    I will accept my volt with or without the limp mode but if it is so equipped, I will not use it. I do not let my cars run out of gas. even had one with a broken gas gage.

    Now again off thread

    I totally believe the volt is a COMPLETE GAME CHANGER. I know of only two people that would not want a competitivy priced volt. They are both service engineers for GE Medical and need a van to haul their tools. They will end up with an E-REV van when they are available.

    I also believe GM is eye ball to eye ball with going down the tube and have the built in cost of the replacement battery because of this situation. Hence my earlier suggestion of a 75,000 mile free warrenty.

    I assume [know how to spell assume] Gm believes as I do, and that is that within 5 years of the successfull introduction of an E-REV a car with only an ICE will will be a small portion of sales. [less than 15%] and need sell the volt at as low a price as possible.

    If they have a $40,000.00 volt and the competition has a $28,000.00 simular car then Gm will go down said tube and all of us will be worse off due to losing another vital industry.


  86. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    OK, gotta weigh in here with my opinion.

    If the Volt’s battery is worth ANYTHING, there should be NO problem discharging it a bit lower than 30% SOC. We’re talking one or two cycles out of thousands. A good battery like A123 or hopefully LG’s equivalent will NOT be noticeably affected by this sort of thing. If you discharged it to a very low state of charge (like approaching 0%), then you MIGHT have an issue. But even then it’s questionable depending on the particular chemistry (A123 would likely shrug it off). Remember, even at like 3-5% SOC the battery will be able to easily power the vehicle as if it was at 80% SOC. 0% SOC is when the battery can no longer meet its rated output, not literally 0 volts. So going a bit below 30% should not be some huge stress on the battery. People shouldn’t be worrying about “ruining” a battery pack by limping home once or twice. If the Volt’s pack cannot handle that, I am not comfortable having it in my car.

    That said, GM has every right to limit what people do with their battery pack, because GM’s reputation is on the line. I think Mr. Kruse was being a bit dramatic in Lyle’s interview, but in the end he makes a valid point. I see no need for this feature if people are going to abuse it…then we could have a problem.


  87. chevonly
    Vote -1 Vote +1chevonly     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Doh Homer:
    How can GM screw us over like this, this car needs another source of power two will never do. Dont they now Americans are a bunch of stupid idiots who can’t figure out when the car needs a charge or is low on gas. How about some pedals in the back seats tied into the generator to keep the rug rat ankle biters busy on long trips an ideal source of free power and exercise at the same time. THIS IS THE STUPIDIST POST I HAVE EVER SEEN ON THIS WEBSITE, IF YOU RUN OUT OF GAS YOU ARE A DUMB ASS PERIOD.


  88. Kyle
    Vote -1 Vote +1Kyle     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    I too think a limp home feature is not worth it. You can always call AAA and On Star gives you a phone in the car so I agree with the many other folks here that limp home should not be an option. Keep to a rigid 40 mile range. Keep taking risk out of the equation GM and make this car a success!! Best of luck.


  89. Tom H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom H     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    #84 Amazed

    It’s good to see most people are willing to take responsibility for their actions and will pay the penalty of waiting at the side of the road for a gallon of gas if they run out. But it amazes me the number of people who still want to be totally taken care of.
    ——————————————————————–
    This is not about personal responsibility, it is about enabling a mechanical device to provide assistance in the event of human error (or ICE failure)

    Should they disable the OnStar feature which remotely unlocks your car if you lock keys in the car? Or how about the feature which turns your lights off automatically?


  90. solo
    Vote -1 Vote +1solo     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    If you are dumb enough to run out of juice and gas at the same time, you deserve to be a pedestrian.


  91. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    Lyle: At the customer depletion point, the battery still has power to get you out of an uncomfortable sutuation. Although the comments are overwhemingly against a “limp home mode,” thanks for asking the question.


  92. Estero
    Vote -1 Vote +1Estero     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    I agree with others who feel a ‘limp home’ mode is not needed. Watch the gas guage, pay attention to warnings and you will be just fine.

    Perhaps #90 solo said it best. If you are dumb enough to run out of juice and gas at the same time, you deserve to be a pedestrian.


  93. Casey
    Vote -1 Vote +1Casey     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Again this is crazy, what do you do when you run out of gas now, you walk, call a friend, call your insurance, call road club or flag down a passer by.

    Lyle please, I know its a long time before the Volt comes out and your trying to keep everyone on board but sometimes your items are a little redundant,

    I hope you come up with something good like you usually do soon

    NO PLUG NO SALE NO WAY =D—$00.00 (free ride)


  94. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 12:45 pm

    #93 Casey

    Again this is crazy, what do you do when you run out of gas now, you walk, call a friend, call your insurance, call road club or flag down a passer by.

    Lyle please, I know its a long time before the Volt comes out and your trying to keep everyone on board but sometimes your items are a little redundant,

    I hope you come up with something good like you usually do soon
    —————————————

    I think the underlying topic about the battery is pretty interesting. I don’t think there is mch Lyle can do about the threads, you only can give what you get.

    Fact is it has been along time since the Volt debuted…and it is a long time before any of us get one. There just is not anywhere near enough exciting topics to get us through 4+ years.

    After all, at the end of the day…it is just a car with a battery, pretty dry stuff relatively speaking.

    I think Lyle is doing a amazing job coming out with a new thread like clockwork, especially since he goes to the trouble to run down and interview ‘a player’ at GM for it…even if the guy is clearly being a a**hat to him like you can tell Bob Kruse was for this.

    I hope if this site is taking too much of Lyle’s time from his other day to day things, that he is getting fat from not running marathons…and he is not killing patients during brain surgery.


  95. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    (off topic)

    I was absent from the internet for awhile, and haven’t been able to catch up since; so I don’t know if someone else has already posted this: there is a pretty good treatment of the Volt in the latest issue of Popular Science (with “Your personal tilt-rotor” on the cover); titled “Power Struggle.” The only glaring error I saw was failing to mention that only half of the 16kwh battery capacity would actually be used to propel the car.

    As a bonus, the “personal tilt rotor” is essentially a flying Volt; the props are turned by motors, and the extra power needed to convert from hovering to forward flight comes from a battery — theoretically.

    (topic resumes)

    I’d rather carry a gas can than wreck the battery (I’d try to find an outlet within range of the extra-long extension cord I plan to carry, first).


  96. Canada Man
    Vote -1 Vote +1Canada Man     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    Hey Statik, wouldn’t it be nice to see GM say “Yes, we will charge you for a whole 2nd pack, but when Volt 2.0 comes out, you just come see us and get yourself a new and improved pack (if your original one hasn’t died yet).”

    Then this wouldn’t be nearly so hard to swallow, would it??

    And then maybe you could chose, do you want your same 40 miles with a pack half the size, or do you want the same sized pack and we’ll give you 80 miles??

    Ok, no one would pick the smaller pack unless they could say it gives you supper performance enhancements or maybe they also give you a $2k GM bucks to spend or something.

    Anyway, a guy can dream.

    Happy Halloween all!!


  97. Fahrvergnugen Fanboy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Fahrvergnugen Fanboy     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    This is what the Volt needs:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5815617526758003795


  98. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    To think that you will be paying 100% for 2 batteries no matter what, that is a bit dramatic. You dont think GM has its engineers/bean counters/lawyers all looking at this situation? If you price the car too high, no one will buy it, if you price it too low and a battery dies, GM loses money. Its all about probabilities, just like your insurance company uses. The price of the car will reflect the percentage chance that a second battery is required. If there is a 100% guarantee that battery #1 will go 100k miles, you will see 0% of a second battery in the price. (and vice versa). Sounds like GM is finding out more through rigorous testing of the battery & software, and that they are much more confident in battery #1 going to make 100K miles.


  99. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    Well the nice thing about this forum is that it has variety.

    AND, I am in favor of a limp-home mode, for the reason that I am a person who has run out of gas, has found it a major problem, and would see limp-home as a major asset to the car.

    While I have never planned to run out of gas, or planned for my wife to do so (she has not), or my children (here not sure), it has happened to me and it does happen to others.

    In my defense (against being undisciplined, slovenly, stupid or whatever) let me note that:

    1 — It is my car ( I will have paid for it)

    2 — It is my battery (I will have paid for it)

    3 — The limp-home mode is a feature that can be added through software (so there is no additional manufacturing cost).

    4 — If use of limp-home is a warranty issue, then the number of times it has been used can be recorded permanently, just as mileage has been recorded permanently on my present vehicles. The warranty can take that into account just as it now takes into account the first 36000 miles (or whatever).

    If statik #23 wishes to deliberately overuse limp-home, that will be recorded too :)

    In a more philosophical way, it seems to me that it is to the interest of the Volt community to have a car that is as capable and versatile as possible. We do not have to be parents to the Volt owners of the world. And, if someone buys a car, we can and should keep in mind that it really is that person’s car, not some sort of community property for GM or us all to manage together.


  100. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    There is a story on the Reuters wire dated about 25 minutes ago saying that the White House has turned down the request for the $10 billion to “facilitate” the Chrysler merger. Reportedly they are saying that they will try to expedite the $25 billion in loans already authorized.

    The link is up on the Yahoo opening page.


  101. curtis
    Vote -1 Vote +1curtis     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    #5 FME #8 Rashiid
    I have to disagree.
    How would YOU respond when a layperson starts dictating to you the details and theory of operation of a system that YOU are an expert in?

    IMO it was Lyle’s comments speculating that “if it happens very rarely it may not impact the cells longevity” that was out of line.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but AFAIK Lyle doesnt have an engineering degree.
    So in my opinion this topic and the entire line of questioning towards Mr. Kruse was totally preposterous.
    Let the engineers do their jobs and forget about “that would be neat” suggestions from the peanut gallery.


  102. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    We don’t really know for sure that GM is building in the cost of a complete second pack. Wasn’t that a rumour? I suspect the truth is that they are just building in the cost of the expected failures. It is possible that they are also being a little bit pessimistic on the failure rate.

    But that is a cost that anyone who buys one of the first Volts should expect; an expensive, high-depreciation, over-promised/under-delivered, and issue-prone vehicle.

    There really is no way around it given that GM has rushed this vehicle out by avoiding their usual checks (by their own admission) prior to reliably testing the battery and using technology that is almost certain to drop rapidly in price and often shooting their PR-mouths off before they really know what is possible.


  103. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    Regading limp mode, why not? It may be the stupidest thing to you, but having a car salesman explain the situation to a prospective buyer on the lot, may be just the reason the person buys a Volt over an ICE car. It definately is something shiney and unique to the Volt.


  104. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    #98 kdawg

    To think that you will be paying 100% for 2 batteries no matter what, that is a bit dramatic. You dont think GM has its engineers/bean counters/lawyers all looking at this situation? If you price the car too high, no one will buy it, if you price it too low and a battery dies, GM loses money. Its all about probabilities, just like your insurance company uses. The price of the car will reflect the percentage chance that a second battery is required. If there is a 100% guarantee that battery #1 will go 100k miles, you will see 0% of a second battery in the price. (and vice versa). Sounds like GM is finding out more through rigorous testing of the battery & software, and that they are much more confident in battery #1 going to make 100K miles.

    —————————————

    Yes, 100% we are paying for 2 packs. It is a dramatic thing, I couldn’t believe it myself when I first heard it…but yet it is true.

    I think maybe you missed the thread that discussed this, here is the exact quote from Lutz himself on September 2, 2008:

    First he says the usual:
    “We haven’t hit any obstacles so far for the batteries,” Lutz said. “They are all performing flawlessly. It’s almost scary we are not seeing any problems with the batteries.”

    Then he says this:
    “We’re being conservative on battery life. For our cost calculations we’re assuming each car will need a replacement during the warranty period.” The Volt will have a 10-year powertrain warranty.

    http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/09/gm-exec-volt-ba.html

    Here is the link to the GM-Volt thread on the same subject:
    http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/03/lutz-each-volt-factors-in-the-cost-of-a-battery-replacement/


  105. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    #100 noel park

    There is a story on the Reuters wire dated about 25 minutes ago saying that the White House has turned down the request for the $10 billion to “facilitate” the Chrysler merger. Reportedly they are saying that they will try to expedite the $25 billion in loans already authorized.

    The link is up on the Yahoo opening page.
    —————————–

    Thanks for mentioning that noel, I was going to…but I didn’t want to derail another thread, lol.

    Basically what happened is the government has told GM to wait until they at least dole out the 25 billion before they come to the well again…for anything (that will probably take until January 2009 at the earliest).

    The writing was on the wall before that probably because the government was not thrilled that they were being asked to pay for the merge, and GM was already planning to shutter the majority of Chrysler and with that laying off the majority of its employees. Basically the gov’t was paying GM to put people to the unemployment line sooner rather than later.

    I think they considered GM’s plan to have no benefit over that of Chrysler even going Chapter 7 (which is cutting it up for auction and only have the valuable pieces as a continuing operation)…which was GM’s basic plan, thrash up Chrysler and then ’streamline’ their own business with the things of strength/efficiency Chrysler could offer

    The decision to call off the ‘emergency’ meeting by the MEDC (Michigan Economic Development Corp) was another clue that it was, or is less likely now to happen. That meeting was basically, a whole bunch of ‘important’ people where going to get together and talk/complain about the ramifications of the merge. The meeting is now, ’sometime’ after the election…no date offered. ie) dead


  106. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    #104 statik Says:
    Yes, 100% we are paying for 2 packs. It is a dramatic thing, I couldn’t believe it myself when I first heard it…but yet it is true.
    (etc..)
    ———————-

    Umm…. those articles are 2 months old and also coming out of Bob Lutz’s mouth.

    We also have 2 years before this car is out the door, and the official price has not been announced.


  107. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    It’s stupid to have a limp home mode if it will shorten the battery life. It’s like having a limp-home mode in a regular ICE-powered car that damages the transmission.

    ‘Nuff said.


  108. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    #105 Statik:

    Well I don’t have a problem with derailing over stuff like this. I think that this financial situation is obviously an existential threat to the Volt, so it is totally appropriate to keep up with it. A lot more interesting than debating the “limp home” issue, IMHO.

    Not to mention the “Vote for……….” comments. At least we will see the last of them after Tuesday, saints be praised. I wonder if Lyle could figure out how to send comments including the names of both parties’ Presidential and Vice presidential candidates into “moderation” for the duration.


  109. Hoang
    Vote -1 Vote +1Hoang     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    Drawing board question.

    If I manage to get home with the empty tank. I charge the Volt overnight. Tomorrow morning, can I drive the Volt 40 miles with the tank still empty?

    Are the acceleration, AC/heater … all required some gas?


  110. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    Let me say again, in my humble opinion I don’t believe that limping home will damage the battery pack in any meaningful way. If you did it once a week then maybe there would be battery life issues….maybe. This issue should not be framed in terms of permanently damaging the battery every time you use “limp mode.” It is, however, worth noting that these things can have a cumulative effect, and that is what GM must worry about if they want the pack to reach 100,000 miles.


  111. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Lithium Ion batteries eventually start to lose their efficiency over time when repeatedly charged and discharged completely. To help alleviate this situation, the GM battery engineers decided to never completely charge the battery packs to 100%, and to always leave a approximate 30% reserve before kicking in the ICE to maintain that reserve. The car is then designed to drive for approximately 40 miles within this battery charge range, never completely full, and never completely discharged.

    Furthermore, GM has already stated that using the cars OnStar hookup, the car will know approximately how far away the car is from home, self-determining whether or not to even kick in the ICE. So in this scenario the battery might be depleted to around 25-28% instead of 30%.

    Therefore, would it really hurt the battery all that much if it were drained to 20% of capacity? Even if the feature were used once a year over ten years, how much damage would really be done, if any?

    The feature is worth at least considering and not dismissed outright as the majority of individuals on this board are advocating.


  112. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    #106 kdawg

    #104 statik Says:
    Yes, 100% we are paying for 2 packs. It is a dramatic thing, I couldn’t believe it myself when I first heard it…but yet it is true.
    (etc..)
    ———————-

    Umm…. those articles are 2 months old and also coming out of Bob Lutz’s mouth.

    We also have 2 years before this car is out the door, and the official price has not been announced.
    =====================================

    I have no retort, lol.

    I can do no better than give a direct quote from the GM exec in charge of the project, given within 2 months. So if you want to hold onto a dream that is ok, free country and all (anything is possible)…but it makes my position #1 with a bullet. I doubt I’ll be getting a signed declaration with blood from Wagoner on a week to week basis anytime soon.

    Further to that…yes, it is two months old (which is not very old), but he said the pack ‘was flawless, no problems, no obstacles’ and that the cost of 2 packs were still going to be in the price, so there is no metric given whereupon we can believe it will be taken out of the equation at any point.


  113. Ryan P.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ryan P.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    Just keep a half-gallon of gas in a can in the trunk. problem solved.


  114. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    #108 noel park

    #105 Statik:

    Well I don’t have a problem with derailing over stuff like this. I think that this financial situation is obviously an existential threat to the Volt, so it is totally appropriate to keep up with it. A lot more interesting than debating the “limp home” issue, IMHO.

    Not to mention the “Vote for……….” comments. At least we will see the last of them after Tuesday, saints be praised. I wonder if Lyle could figure out how to send comments including the names of both parties’ Presidential and Vice presidential candidates into “moderation” for the duration.
    ———————————————–

    Thank goodness for next Tuesday! It will be the greatest day ever!
    (Although GM is perhaps reporting Q3 at the same time, so that might be a bit of a downer).

    America has the longest, drawn out production for an election…crazy long. I’d like to echo your sentiment noel, of joy and happiness about not seeing anymore politically charged messages.

    I also don’t know how you can sit through those ‘hate’ commercials for local/state positions, “Joe Flanigan voted against the nursing home on 4th Street. Why does Joe Flanigan hate your Grandmother? Does Joe Flanigan believe in euthanasia for people over 65? Do you want Joe Flanigan killing your grandmother? Vote Mary Smith. Vote for not killing your grandma!”

    Side note on the 2008 Q3 report (which should be Nov. 3rd). Usually we have a disclaimer/calender update a few days ahead of the release…we have not had that. A obscure (and solo) source (Japan’s NHK) reported mid-week that it may be delayed:

    “GM apparently wishes to avoid a possible impact of its business report on the negotiations (the merger). Some earlier reports, quoting people familiar with the matter, said that GM, which is expected to report poor third-quarter earnings in the coming weeks, hopes to have a deal in place before the end of October”

    Obviously the merger is now NOT going down before the end of the month….so I don’t know what this means to the release. Probably we will get a bulletin on it after the market close tonight.


  115. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    @ #112 statik

    2 months is a long time in this development, especially when they are cramming 10 years of battery testing into 2 years. i dont think GM knew then what it knows now about the battery life.

    and since when does anyone trust something coming from a GM exec? we have multiple examples of misinformation, i wont bother naming them.

    like i said, in 2 years, we will see where the pricing is (and for what). everything now until then is just speculation, and nothing for ppl to get their panties in a bunch about.


  116. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    kdawg
    I think my thong is in a bunch, but I can’t be sure.


  117. ARC
    Vote -1 Vote +1ARC     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    This feature is just software and it can be managed so that no harm can be done to the battery pack. I think it would be an excellent marketing angle to help those poor souls who would not purchase the car because they can’t plan well enough to keep gas in the tank to get home.


  118. omegaman66
    Vote -1 Vote +1omegaman66     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    Why are we even talking about such stuff. I don’t think I have ever run out of gas my entire life.


  119. Ed M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ed M     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    I’m going to drive my volt mainly on the battery with a small amount of gas in the tank. But what would really help is for the Volt to have a gas only button so that the driver can use up any stale gas in the tank every few weeks without draining the battery first.
    This way there will always be relatively fresh gas in the tank (small amount) when it’s needed.


  120. ARC
    Vote -1 Vote +1ARC     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    Ed…that is awesome idea about gas only mode…hey GM hire this guy!!!


  121. Rashiid Amul
    Vote -1 Vote +1Rashiid Amul     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    Curtis # 101

    That is why I stated in #8
    But then again, it is difficult to show feelings in a forum like this.
    We might just be reading it wrong.


  122. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    Jesus friggin Christ People!
    Do you have a “Limp Home” mode in your current Car?!?!?
    What do you do if your current ICE car doesn’t start? Goes Dead? Runs out of Gas?

    Then you do the same in the Volt!!! In any car for that matter!!

    Stupid phukin people. Give me a break. You are asking for a “Limp Home” mode on a car that already gets 75-100 miles farther than the current vehicles we drive now.
    If you ran out of gas then you don’t deserve to drive a vehicle.

    If it just dies and your stuck in Compton California, do you really think the car will go anywhere? All you’ll have to worry about are vandals. That’s what insurance is for!

    Common sense people!
    IDIOTS!


  123. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    #122 Capt says “Give me a break. You are asking for a “Limp Home” mode on a car that already gets 75-100 miles farther than the current vehicles we drive now.
    If you ran out of gas then you don’t deserve to drive a vehicle.”
    ===============================================

    On the other hand, maybe it is better if you drive your car your way and I drive my car my way. And, if my car has the capability to do something, I would like to be able to choose to do it (within the bounds of safe and legal). Why does that pose such a problem for you or others?

    These cars are not community property, and we are discussing a feature of possibly great value and low cost.


  124. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    Oh great, lets add another “Feature” to kick the price of the car to Oblivion!.

    Yeah, that’ll really make the car sell.


  125. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    #122 Capn says
    “What do you do if your current ICE car doesn’t start? Goes Dead? Runs out of Gas?
    Then you do the same in the Volt!!! In any car for that matter!”
    ===============================================

    It is not logical to continue to have a limitation that is no longer necessary, just because it was a part of the past.

    Adversity may build character, but we don’t try to be sure that everyone has a lot of radiator boil-overs or flat tires.


  126. pjkPA
    Vote -1 Vote +1pjkPA     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Limp home mode should not be a option …..

    We should be talking about how much the VOLT will cost in other countries.
    Japan…. they will add $15,000 in tariffs…
    Germany … they will be the same as most of the EU.. and add $10,000 in tariffs.
    Korea… probably not sold.

    Level the playing field and a lot more cars like the CHEVY VOLT will be available in the future … if not we will be forced to buy over priced over complicated hybrids like the ones available today from countries like Japan… who’s government finances their impractical ideas.


  127. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    #124 CaptJack says “Oh great, lets add another “Feature” to kick the price of the car to Oblivion!.”
    =========================================

    Please stay cool. What we are discussing is a minor software change. There will be a small development cost but no increase in the manufacturing cost. On the other hand, the value of the car will be higher.


  128. Jeff
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    Sure…the button would have a CAUTION message:

    IF YOU PRESS THE LIMP HOME BUTTON, YOU WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY ON THE $10K BATTERY.

    C’mon people…


  129. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    @RB
    “It is not logical to continue to have a limitation that is no longer necessary, just because it was a part of the past.”

    This limitation is inherent in everything that requires “Energy”. No way around it that I know of currently, unless you know of an “Overunity” device of which nobody knows of. That’s why there are gas staion at almost every block and strategically spanned accross interstates.

    Asking to make a “minor software change” requires the retesting of the vehicles drive train under the “Limp mode” to make sure it does not kill the batteries. Of course if you have ever been in product manufacturing you have to do this in cold climates, Hot climates, Humid Climates, cycle the process a few hundred times, put it through accelerated climate changes, envirinmentals and then if just ONE battery fails, you have to go through an entire “Failure Analasys” process and repeat till the “minor change” is qualified for a minimum of “allowable failure loss”. That’s why they took so long to select the first choice battery vendor. Now your going to tell me that will not increase cost?
    I’ve been there, done that.


  130. Jeff
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    #123 RB

    ***************************
    On the other hand, maybe it is better if you drive your car your way and I drive my car my way. And, if my car has the capability to do something, I would like to be able to choose to do it (within the bounds of safe and legal). Why does that pose such a problem for you or others?\
    *************************

    Yeah…It is just a problem for GM…C’mon people! Does your sell phone or laptop have this feature? If so, does your phone or laptop battery have a 10 year warranty? Get real.

    Of course, one possiblilty is to add a “Customer reserve depletion point” similar to a motorcyle reserve fuel tank. However, it probably would require the driver to press…yet another button.


  131. GLV
    Vote -1 Vote +1GLV     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    Several people have mentioned a reserve tank on motorcycles. Why not have a typical lead-acid car battery connected to the ICE. Normally, this could be used to start the ICE and take the load off the LI batteries driving the car the first 40 miles. The ICE would keep the LA battery charged just like a normal car. However, if the LI batteries were at minimum charge and the ICE ran out of gas, the LA battery could provide enough power to get you another couple of miles down the road (possibly at reduced speed), to a gas station and hopefully out of any possible harm’s way. A typical LA battery weighs about 15-20 pounds, not much really for a nice added ability. :)


  132. kubel
    Vote -1 Vote +1kubel     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    Both “limp home mode” and “40 miles beginning to end of life” will have to dip into the buffer zone (less than 30% charge) at some point, which is not favorable to battery life.

    GM is ok with damaging the battery toward the end of the warranty period so it lasts just long enough, but will not include limp home mode because that’s something that will damage the battery during the warranty period. Tsk tsk, GM.


  133. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    #122 CaptJackSparrow
    “If it just dies and your stuck in Compton California, do you really think the car will go anywhere? All you’ll have to worry about are vandals.”

    It is funny you should say that. I really did break down in Compton once. I got mugged. I can attest to the fact that vandals are not your only worry.


  134. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    #130 Jeff says “Does your sell phone or laptop have this feature? ”
    ==========================

    Not my cell phone, but actually my laptop does have it.
    Very handy sometimes. I don’t use it often, but every now and then … :)

    As many people have said, it’s a feature not in cars now, so we can get along without it. But if the car will do it, it seems to me to be a nice, last-chance, line of defense against being stopped cold in some strange and dangerous place.


  135. NZDavid
    Vote -1 Vote +1NZDavid     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    I say protect the battery.

    As 25 Exp pointed out it would be easy to set the last .5 gallon to the most efficient generation point, which will probably give a driving speed of 30 – 40 mph. If you still keep driving and run out, too bad.


  136. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    If GM does this, they would have to make it unattractive to do on a regular basis. An annoying sound would probably do the trick. If customers disconnect the sound, the warranty would be void.


  137. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    Anybody know wht the price is for the Volt so far? How about it’s release date?


  138. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    #136 Dave G — or it could require an explicit override of a message on the screen that says you are reducing your warranty coverage by some amount, or just that you shouldn’t do it except in case of emergency, or some such. It’s a nice adjunct to having a nice screen display. If GM is really really cautious, they could require you to push the button that talks to Onstar.


  139. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    @Dave
    Dude that’s a good idea (if they do allow this feature…lol). Make it so you have to be tripple jointed to flip an actuator and when you start moving, the car would make some loud noise like when you were a kid you’d tape some cards on the fork of your bike to flap into the spokes….
    Nice.


  140. Mark Z
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mark Z     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    The “limp home” mode should be automatic; without user intervention. IF there is enough energy in the battery to safely power the car a bit further (without damaging the battery) then the VOLT would display the exact distance you have left to drive before shutting down. Think of it as a very accurate range display. It would certainly be better than “LOW RANGE” and “VERY LOW RANGE” displays that don’t tell you the actual distance left to travel. While the ICE needs that general warning, the distance calculated from the remaining battery power could be displayed in detail.

    Of course everyone should fill up when “LOW RANGE” appears, but using available battery power to pull off the highway is a safety feature if some owners ignore the warnings and are suddenly stuck trying to get to the next emergency phone box on the freeway.


  141. Hous Volt Pharteen
    Vote -1 Vote +1Hous Volt Pharteen     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    To me this is a useless feature, I do let my audi get to E, how can I let my future car, The Volt, which will have more advance, delicate sofware and hardware. That will be crazy, and pointless. No thanks.


  142. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    140 Mark Z says to “display the exact distance you have left to drive before shutting down. Think of it as a very accurate range display.”
    ===================================

    It would be great if it can do it. But as discussed at the top of the thread, it is doubtful that it is possible.


  143. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    Lithium polymere batteries can be completely ruined, and probably will be with one complete discharge. A123 batteries can be used until they won’t power the vehicle anymore and degrade slowly, but they didn’t pick A123 batteries. They picked the ones that need coddling. Having picked these batteries it would be best to expect them to be ruined with a complete discharge. Don’t have a ruin the battery option; call AAA.


  144. Lunoir
    Vote -1 Vote +1Lunoir     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    This feature is not required, the range extender is the “limp home” if no fuel or defective ICE then call gm’s road side assistance and 30 minutes later your car is on a platform going to the nearest dealership/gaz station for free. (included in warranty).
    Tried (not with the volt) tested and true
    NPNS !


  145. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:13 pm

    I like the “gas only” option someone mentioned above. I wonder if that is GM’s plan already for taking care of the stale gas. Maybe it keeps track of the last time you refueled and automatically uses up the fuel so you have to get new stuff.


  146. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    “Stale gas” is not going to be an issue.

    I just combed through several pages of related material. And the LOW estimate of gasoline going stale is 3-4 months (stored in a can ~ on a shelf).

    The first element of gasoline degradation (stored in a can ~ on a shelf) is the octane level. The octane will degrade by 1% in 3-4 months. Second is discoloration (browning) in 5-6 months. Third is ‘varnish’ or ‘gum sediment’ formation in (7-8) months.

    As many here have said. The Volt could very well have a 35 mile freeway range and a 45 mile city range on battery power. With the sloshing around of the gasoline, and the addition of 1-2 gallons a month, I don’t see a problem.

    And let’s be realistic, if you own a Volt you’re going to be doing some cruising to show it off.

    =D~


  147. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    #114 Statik (Me)

    Side note on the 2008 Q3 report (which should be Nov. 3rd). Usually we have a disclaimer/calender update a few days ahead of the release…we have not had that. A obscure (and solo) source (Japan’s NHK) reported mid-week that it may be delayed:

    “GM apparently wishes to avoid a possible impact of its business report on the negotiations (the merger). Some earlier reports, quoting people familiar with the matter, said that GM, which is expected to report poor third-quarter earnings in the coming weeks, hopes to have a deal in place before the end of October”

    Obviously the merger is now NOT going down before the end of the month….so I don’t know what this means to the release. Probably we will get a bulletin on it after the market close tonight.
    ———————-

    Not that anyone is following up with this…or is interested, but it looks like my November 3rd call is still accurate…GM I guess is jsut keep results on the ‘down-lo’

    Little ditty on CNBC just referenced it…they might not have a clue either and it is just a blunder, but I mentioned, so I thought I should follow through.

    /at the very least we will get the October auto sales numbers…which are widely consensus’d (word?) to be the industry’s worst to date with the domestic automakers having cut back on the incentives, leasing and financing


  148. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    Interesting article at Businessweek on the Volt, snappy title too:

    Chevy Volt: Can It Survive GM?

    “Two momentous things are happening at General Motors (GM). One is GM’s electric-powered car, the Chevrolet Volt, which might be a breakthrough machine if it debuts on schedule in late 2010. The other is the deepest financial crisis in GM’s history, which threatens virtually every program underway at the huge automaker — including the Volt.

    But will the Volt survive if everything else at GM goes down the drain? Or if the company declares bankruptcy? In Chapter 11, creditors and a bankruptcy judge have a lot of say over corporate strategy, and it could get hard to justify large expenditures for a futurecar at the expense of mainstream offerings today.”

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/103355-chevy-volt-can-it-survive-gm?source=yahoo


  149. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    hi statik #147,

    Expectations are for a November 9th announcement concerning a Chrysler marriage, a 25 billion loan, and an additional 10 billion in assistance.

    The only one which seems solid at this time is the 25 billion dollar loan. Either way, GM will be taking on more debt (with interest to pay).

    My hope is that GM remains GM as we know it. I don’t like the idea of any more loans (or bailouts) for anybody. If a company can’t cut dead end projects, and rethink their compensation levels, they should simply pay the price and fail. By added outside money, the status quo will simply pull the shade and sink comfortably back into their leather barcaloungers.

    Anyone for fried pork skins and coke?

    =D~


  150. Chris
    Vote -1 Vote +1Chris     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    I personally have never run out of gas…ever. Assuming this car has a fuel gauge, I don’t see that happening very happening very often, especially with 40% more driving distance (640 total miles!) than my current vehicle. I think you would have to TRY to run out of gas in that thing, and if you are 1 – 2 miles from home, you can probably find someone who will let you plug it in for 20 minutes to let you get the thing home. Wow, that sounds like fun. Being able to charge your car wherever you go for practically free.


  151. jscott1000
    Vote -1 Vote +1jscott1000     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    Watching the gas gauge seems like an easy answer, but it’s not that simple.

    Human beings are creatures of habit. On my gas car I know that it can drive 300 miles tops before I have to refill.

    On the Volt, if your daily commute is less than 40 miles, you might go months without buying gas, and hence pay little attention to the gas gauge. On Star and AAA are a great comfort, but if I knew the car had the ability to limp home, but a lawyer prevented me from doing it, I would be upset.

    The other thing is a limp mode could be use the last half gallon most efficiently and not give you full power until the ICE shuts off. That could be the limp mode and have you really really look for a gas station before all your gas is gone.


  152. Arch
    Vote -1 Vote +1Arch     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    Would you folks just put some gas in the gas tank and not worry about limping home! I leave gas in my motorhome all winter and have never had a problem.

    Take Care
    Arch


  153. JonP.
    Vote -1 Vote +1JonP.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    So we get a car that can run on 2 different sources, why would we need a “Limp” home mode. If GM says no 10 year warranty if we give you the limp mode why would we want it?

    Statik,
    how about that GM stock? What’s your take on what will happen with the merger. I know how you feel about it, but i’d be interested to hear about what you think will happen


  154. frankyB
    Vote -1 Vote +1frankyB     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    No, no and no, I don’t want it….

    It is like if I was telling you you could run you ICE with little or no oil, you know it will damage the motor, it’s not because you can that you should.

    No limp mode, just learn to maintain your car properly and that mean making sure you have enough gas, just in case you need it.


  155. R.V.
    Vote -1 Vote +1R.V.     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 10:28 pm

    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance!!!


  156. Jerry
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jerry     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    #23 Statik says…..

    “Even if by some magic I love the car…and I do own the car 7, 8, 9, 10 years…I don’t care about pack conservation, I want that battery dead!”
    Here is the entire problem with the cost of everything now today, cars cost a fortune, because people try to get everything broken before it is out of warranty. This drives warranty costs up and makes the next generation of cars cost more for the rest of us that just want to drive them. Sure paying for another battery, and not getting it seems like a ripoff, but this is a whole new concept and they are just trying to cover thier butts, and stay in business. Anyone that purposely beats thier car(no matter who builds it…yes even Toyukkas) just to get free parts before warranty is up, should be flogged. It just punishes everyone else that buys that product down the road. RESPONSIBILITY. Sorry if I stepped on any toes…Take care all


  157. Shaft
    Vote -1 Vote +1Shaft     Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    I’ve been simulating the use of my virtual Volt for 2 months now … religiously taking down my car’s odometer reading every morning before first start to get distance travelled the day before.

    I haven’t used a drop of gas in 2 months and I have travelled over 1600 miles, for roughly $30. Yea! What a country! How about you all?

    So, I will personally take a pass on the limp home mode. While I respect the views of other people, consider the following.

    I figure that for most people who are good Volt candidates, the probabilty of being standed in the city is almost nil. After all, most of you will be “filling the tank” (so to speak) every night with a plug. So, the chances of being stranded are even lower with a Volt than with an ICE. ( I admit I did stupidly run out of gas once in 30 years of driving.)

    Also if you run out of gas on the highway on a long trip (because you’ve ignored all the dire warnings screaming at you from the display, you dummy!), then you likely won’t be close enough to “limp” anywhere anyway.

    Non-issue to me. GM has it right again. PPPPPP (see #155:)


  158. Paul C from Austin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Paul C from Austin     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:00 am

    Thumbs down on the ‘limp home’ mode- by leaving it out of the system, drivers will learn to live within the cars parameters, as others have repeatedly and already said, just like we do now- otherwise people will push it- then you have a warranty mess with the batteries. I ran oug of gas once in my life, when I was just starting to learn how to drive- you learn to be aware of your car and it’s fuel after that. It should not be that hard to maintain some responsibility as a driver in this regard


  159. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:26 am

    Tax breaks for plug-in electric cars

    Under the new law, plug-in electric cars with at least a 4-kilowatt-hour battery pack will be eligible for a $2,500 credit, with an additional $417 for each additional kilowatt-hour of battery capacity, up to $7,500. GM expects the Volt will merit the maximum credit.

    Toyota Motor Corp. (TM)’s plug-in hybrid is expected in showrooms in late 2009, and GM’s Chevrolet Volt, an extended range plug-in electric car, is due in late 2010. General Motors Corp. (GM, Fortune 500) is also introducing a plug-in version of the Saturn Vue in 2010, and Nissan Motor Co. (NSANY) plans to bring an electric vehicle to the U.S. by 2010.

    Nissan EV-01 http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/nissan%20ev%2001.jpg

    Why do I think “pop-tart” when I look at this picture? The EV-01 battery reportedly weighs 660lbs.

    =D~


  160. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:58 am

    China: Unemployment
    Already, scores of Chinese factories producing consumer goods like toys and plastics goods have shuttered in the southern industrial powerhouse of Guangdong, and thousands of unemployed workers have made their displeasure known with rowdy demonstrations last month.
    It’s a situation that is only going to get much worse in the next few months, as the number of unemployed balloons. According to estimates by the Dongguan City Association of Enterprises with Foreign Investment, 9,000 of the 45,000 factories in the cities of Guangzhou, Dongguan, and Shenzhen – the heart of China’s industrial south – are expected to close before the Chinese New Year in late January. That could mean up to 2.7 million workers facing unemployment, the association said. And they called that number “conservative.”
    China, by its own admission, suffers tens of thousands of what the government describes as “mass incidents,” or protests involving large numbers of demonstrators, and the majority take place in the countryside. Should they begin to occur in the cities, “we would be witnessing the most severe challenge the Communist leadership has faced in many, many years,” says Beijing based scholar Russell Lee Moses. “Stability has been taken for granted by outsiders, but cadres are well aware of how dependent their power is on economic growth. This is a going to be a very real test of the government’s capacity.”

    =D~


  161. Dave K.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K.     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 1:24 am

    A potential merger of General Motors and Chrysler has hit an impasse after the Bush administration ruled out funding for a deal, according to a published report.

    This puts any merger of the struggling automakers on hold until after the U.S. presidential election, Reuters reports, citing sources with direct knowledge of the talks.

    The development opens the door for Cerberus, Chrysler’s owner, to restart talks with the Nissan-Renault alliance. Cerberus has seen a deal with the joint venture of Nissan and Renault as an option outside of a GM acquisition of Chrysler.

    _______________________________

    Nissan Motor said second-quarter net income fell 39% to 73.5 billion yen ($760 million) on a severe decline in the U.S. market and as the global economic crisis hit all areas of the auto industry.

    “The global financial and economic crisis has had a profound effect on every area of our industry, with the grip on credit and declining consumer confidence being the most damaging factors,” said Nissan President and CEO Carlos Ghosn in a press release. “Since we see no relief in the second half, we are taking all necessary and responsible measures to protect the company and preserve our ability to rebound when conditions improve.”

    =D~


  162. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 5:35 am

    #147 statik “Not that anyone is following up with this…or is interested, but it looks like my November 3rd call is still accurate…”
    ====================

    Thank you, I was wondering.


  163. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 5:46 am

    #121 Dave K says
    “This puts any merger of the struggling automakers on hold until after the U.S. presidential election, Reuters reports, citing sources with direct knowledge of the talks.
    The development opens the door for Cerberus, Chrysler’s owner, to restart talks with the Nissan-Renault alliance. Cerberus has seen a deal with the joint venture of Nissan and Renault as an option outside of a GM acquisition of Chrysler.”
    ==================================

    Or just wait 4 days until the election is over.
    Then the politics will be entirely different though and probably less sympathetic. (No one will any longer need Michigan or Ohio as voters.)


  164. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 5:56 am

    #102 GXT says “We don’t really know for sure that GM is building in the cost of a complete second pack. Wasn’t that a rumour? I suspect the truth is that they are just building in the cost of the expected failures. It is possible that they are also being a little bit pessimistic on the failure rate.”
    =========================================

    Yes, I agree. What we are seeing is the high cost of a car that is built for the warranty requirements of just one state, CA.

    Maybe GM could price a different car for the other states, should it sell in other states. We could have the standard warranty period of 3 to 5 years and a marked drop in price, accordingly. Then if the owner had a battery with diminished performance, it would be the owner’s choice whether to replace the battery, or not.

    That is, the rest of us would get the benefits of a more sensible warranty period. (CA always thinks that state intervention is better, but sometimes it is not, however well intended.)


  165. D Lo
    Vote -1 Vote +1D Lo     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 6:32 am

    Maybe the Volt should come equipped with a cyanide pill. For safety purposes, it might be best if this idiot simply kill themselves than destroy a car because they can’t seem to find a gas station in 350 miles.

    Just because the car has a battery doesn’t mean we have to find stupid uses for it. Since the car doesn’t need the gas generator, lets make it removable so you can take it with you when you go camping. Since the car has a touch screen, why not add a personal ATM feature financed by GMAC bank where you can take out money from anyone’s Volt. I’d love to see a thread of everyone’s craziest mod for the volt. This one ranks.


  166. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 8:00 am

    #117 ARC says ” I think it would be an excellent marketing angle to help those poor souls who would not purchase the car because they can’t plan well enough to keep gas in the tank to get home.”
    ===============================================

    Well ARC as one of those poor souls isn’t it good that I think ahead when buying the car and allow for one of my many faults?


  167. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 8:22 am

    #165 D Lo says “Maybe the Volt should come equipped with a cyanide pill. For safety purposes, it might be best if this idiot simply kill themselves than destroy a car because they can’t seem to find a gas station in 350 miles.”
    ================================================

    I hope you are joking.

    There has been a level of arrogance in this thread that I would not have believed possible here. Yes, people are human. They make mistakes. I am one of them. But I do not intend to take a cyanide pill.


  168. Herm
    Vote -1 Vote +1Herm     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 8:59 am

    Link for the China unemployment problems:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081031/wl_time/chinasworstnightmareunemployment

    I seem to remember rumors that the Volt battery was $5000, when did it turn to $10,000 ?

    GM is being conservative because no one has used these cells for 10 years, and they did choose the LG cells wich are not as durable as A123 cells.. for whatever reasons.

    Lipos can take the occasional severe discharge, perhaps down to 5% with careful monitoring of EACH cell in the pack.. because if even one cell reached 0% for a short time it will be ruined, and you cant guarantee each cell will reach that point at the same time. You cant discharge your pack to 5% and then let it sit there for 3 days, it will be ruined. So since GM cant guarantee that you will promptly recharge the battery after you limp home….

    Suppose you have a hurricane or other natural disaster and you lose power for 2 weeks, you use the limp home button that time (and you will be tempted, even more if it is a lease) and there goes the battery.

    If GM does implement this, a prominent red sign should permanently light up on your dash.. Battery Warranty Voided, it is only fair to the person that will buy your used Volt. The lawsuits will start flying around like popcorn from unhappy owners facing that big red sign.

    Many cars are driven 20 years, 10 years and it is barely broken in.. I’m sure GM will make provisions for pack replacements, and I am also sure aftermarket rebuilt packs will be available.. the same physical shape may contain fewer high tech lipo cells with the same total capacity and less weight/cost in years to come.

    The temptation to kill that battery before he warranty is over will be strong.. all it would take would be to connect a resistor to the battery and let it drain to zero for a few days.. but I’m sure GM will make it hard to access the true battery terminals. You could also do it by heating up the battery to about 160degF for a few days.. just wrap up the car in black plastic and let it sit in the sun :)


  169. Nelson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Nelson     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 9:36 am

    Let’s see, right not when I’m low on gas the car beeps “LOW GAS”.
    If I’m on the highway I look for the first gas station stat.
    If I ignore it and keep driving the car stops, when I run out of gas.

    The Volt should be no different when using the ICE.
    I vote NO for “Limp Home Mode”.

    NPNS !


  170. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 9:50 am

    #153 JonP

    Statik,
    how about that GM stock? What’s your take on what will happen with the merger. I know how you feel about it, but i’d be interested to hear about what you think will happen
    ————————————–

    How do I feel about it right now I think is what your asking me? (You don’t need/want my overall opinion obviously, heeh)

    I think all the movement the last 4-6 weeks has just been range trade because there is just so much happening all at once. It has been impossible to put your finger on the pulse because of all the behind the scenes action, so the stock has responded accordingly.

    I think alot of people increased positions mid week, thinking the merger was really close ie) ramping news on it & GM being ‘mum’ about their scheduled earnings release…that was seen as a precursor to getting a deal done.

    I think it sold off into the weekend because the merger announcement didn’t happen. Then they switched focus back to owning the shares without merger news, and were leery of holding the stock into the weekend and into a ’surprise’ Q3 report.

    The Q3 is really the wild card here Jon. GM really stepped on the gas pedal to raise cash, retain market share this quarter. It all start exactly on the first of July with all those rebates and 0%…then put rebates on top of rebates in August, and continued thru September trying to raise cash/maintain sales. To some extend, they ‘beat’ their peers in relative sales expectations, but still were down 20% in NA.

    The AVERAGE GM rebate for the quarter was almost $4,000. So how will these massive writedowns on top of plummetting sale affect the bottom line on the report? GM filed that 10-K taking the ‘paper profit’ in a lump some this quarter on pensions…that might make the bottom line look better (maybe, hard to say).

    To tell you the truth I don’t think the market/industry will be looking to the bottom line at all, they will be looking immediately for the cash balance and try to figure out the burn rate…with 14 billion be the ‘death point.’

    Again, GM has done some fancy footwork here by drawing out the remainder of that 4.5 billion line of credit (about 3 billion dollars) which would have been closed by the banks as soon as the Q3 report was out because there is benchmarks in there that GM had to hit or it could be shuttered.

    Still, they had more than a few ‘one-time’ payouts, how much in total and how much paid in this quarter? I dunno. Historically, I’ve been pretty good at pegging quarterly results for GM…this quarter, I would be hesitant to even attempt it…I think I would make myself look foolish. If I had to guess, I’d put cash burn in the 4.5 billion-ish range (depending on if you are disqualifying the 3 billion they ‘cash advanced)


  171. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 10:10 am

    Oh yeah, the merger…sorry Jon, I got sidetracked.

    I think short term gov’t funded merger is dead. Small chance in the new year for it…if GM doesn’t lay a egg in Q3.

    Small chance they do a merger on the cheap without ‘free cash’ from the gov’t, but with a few billion (3-4) ‘donated’ by Cerberus.

    Most likely scenario (of any of them) at this point is that Chrysler gets carved up/C7. Renault gets the much more efficient truck/mini SUV platform it needs badly, GM gets the vans…they have a mini-war over Jeep (which is the real value). Renault/Nissan offers good cash for Jeep, GM offers up share of GMAC, then it is up to Cerberus what it wants…most likely the 49% of GMAC.

    (Disclaimer: Stuff like this is like trying to guess a coin flip…or read someone’s mind. It’s like reading someone’s mind…it is all conjecture. Nothing like trying to decern the economic tea leaves of a company. In other words, a total WAG on my part).


  172. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 11:32 am

    #159 Dave K:

    Looks like they aren’t using the same wind tunnel GM’s using, LOL.


  173. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 11:49 am

    A very intersting and informative thread BTW, once Statik “derailed” it, LMAO. Of course I would never do such a thing, but still……….. Great work bloggers, as usual.

    #114 Statik:

    Yeah, did you hear about the commercial in North Carolina where Senator Dole accused her opponent of not believing in God? Last line in the commercial an actor’s voice saying “I don’t believe in God”.

    Partially as a result, Sen. Dole’s once thought to be dead bang reelection has been placed in peril, so I guess there may be a little justice in the world after all.

    Wake me when it’s over.


  174. kevin R
    Vote -1 Vote +1kevin R     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    No. It’s silly and potentially bad for the battery. If the feature exists, then somebody will push their tank to empty. For one thing, if you’re on gas mode, you’re probably traveling a long distance for a vacation or something. So you should be monitoring the fuel anyway.


  175. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    #173 noel park says regarding the NC senatorial election “Partially as a result, Sen. Dole’s once thought to be dead bang reelection has been placed in peril, so I guess there may be a little justice in the world after all”
    ============================================

    It was an ad following a fund-raiser dinner for Kay Hagan held by an atheist society in Boston. The ad backfired, as you said, but not as much as it seems, because it is just one of a long series of ads from both sides with harsh accusations back and forth. Kay Hagan also is not very popular, before or after her candidacy. Dole is in trouble not because of the ad but because she has rarely been seen in NC in the last 6 years and often is not available to people from NC trying to see her in DC. She is seen by many people of all political outlooks as having been invisible. If Kay Hagan is elected, which seems likely, and turns into Harry Reid’s disciple, which also seems likely as she is seen as a weak person, she will be a one-term senator.


  176. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    I keep thinking about D Lo’s post at #165, which says “Maybe the Volt should come equipped with a cyanide pill” (for the driver to take after running out of gas.) It is to me sad that we on this blog have come to this level of unfeeling judgment of other people we don’t even know, or know what happened.. I guess it is time to take a long vacation from gm-volt.


  177. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    #175 RB:

    Points taken. You will note that I said “Partially”.

    Actually, the NPR commentary on this this AM said very much the same things as you have said in your comment. I was just responding to Statik’s interesting comment on the state of US political commercials, and trying to keep it to a minimum. I think that you will agree that “I don’t believe in God” was a bit much.

    #176 RB:

    Naahh, it was just another over the top (dare I say dumb?) comment. Try not to take it too seriously. I have been accused of a few in my day myself. Not true of course. but still…………..

    Sorry, all vacations have been cancelled for the duration. When the first Volt hits the showrooms of the surviving Chevrolet dealers you can have a few days off. Until then, stay with it.


  178. khl
    Vote -1 Vote +1khl     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    Under our tort crazed legal system, I can see the warnings now. First, you will have to break a glass cover. Then when you push the button, a warning message will appear on the screen and in a spoken voice, “Caution, by pushing the red button twice more, you agree that your battery warranty on this vehicle will be cancelled. You agree to release General Motors from any liability resulting from the shortened battery life. You agree to release your car dealer, the battery manufacturer, your local power utility, and anyone and everyone in the United States and the World from any liability for your shortened battery life. You agree that this release will be binding and shall last for the life of your vehicle. In addition you will hold harmless General Motors, its heirs, successors and assigns from all consequential damages arising therefrom. This disclaimer of warranty and any negation thereof shall be operative from the moment you press the red button twice. Please push this button three to times to signal your assent and waiver of your litigation rights under any breach of warrant claim.”

    I think you get the point. Watch the stupid gas gauge and you won’t have any problems!!!


  179. Tom
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    I don’t think anybody has mentioned the fact that the generator starts at, and tries to maintain, 30% battery charge. That means that at 30%, there’s a buffer to provide a useful amount of full-power acceleration. I would expect you to be able to drain the battery down to maybe 20% before you experience limited acceleration.

    That means there’s a ~10% buffer for a limp-home mode that will not affect the longevity of the battery–it’s designed to be depleted this much while accelerating under generator power. I’m not sure why this toolbox from GM fails to mention that.

    I would actually expect that if the ICE doesn’t start, either because it’s broken or out of gas, that you would be able to use up the 10% before the car completely stopped moving. GM wouldn’t even really have to do any extra engineering for this “feature.” You could conceivably go 8 miles in this non-mode.

    So that answers the limp home mode question for me.

    In previous discussions, the question went more like, if I’m only a few miles away from home, can the car delay starting the ICE and allow me to make it back under electric power only. Frankly I think the idea is stupid because 1) it complicates the model of how the car works, and 2) I find it unnerving that my car would know where I live and guess when I’m driving there. But, I will admit that the idea has some appeal because most of the wear on an ICE and its emissions hardware is from cold starts, and if your commute is 42 miles and the ICE comes on every day for 2 minutes to get you home, that’s a terrible duty cycle and it would be nice to just drive those extra 2 miles under battery power.


  180. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    #178 khl:

    How about “If you are captured the Secretary (Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoner?) will deny all knowledge of you existence”?


  181. 16falcon
    Vote -1 Vote +116falcon     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    Don’t make it possible for the user to damage the battery, for they surely will. For those of us who have been driving for many years we have always had to manage our fuel, just because we have an electric car doesn’t change that requirement. I have driven a lot out west where gas stations can be a long time coming. I am very coservative with fuel planning and usually refuel at 1/4 of a tank remaining. I have only run out of gas once, in 1978 as a teenager. Short answer is don’t make “limp home” an option.


  182. D LO
    Vote -1 Vote +1D LO     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    #176 RB
    Dude, relax. My point was a simple one; just because you can dream it doesn’t mean you should do it. The electric car presents new opportunities, but that doesn’t mean you need to exploit every one of them, especially if the cons outweigh the pro.

    Eat some granola, you’ll feel better tomorrow


  183. Chevy Volt’s Battery, its Moral Hazard, and My Solution | Christopher Price .net
    Vote -1 Vote +1Chevy Volt’s Battery, its Moral Hazard, and My Solution | Christopher Price .net     Says:
    November 1st, 2008 at 10:04 pm

    [...] lets you power on the vehicle, outside of operating specifications? That’s something that GM says they’re mixed about internally. They realize that there is interest in an Emergency Mode, but they also realize that [...]


  184. curtis
    Vote -1 Vote +1curtis     Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 4:17 am

    #179 Tom

    Bob Lutz himself provided insight on this exact scenario during his most recent “60-Minutes” interview, During the interview Lutz states that the real beauty of the Volt lies in it’s SOFTWARE, with smart intuative features that work in-conjunction with the GPS navigation system. So if the Volt “sees” that you are nearly home, it can actually inhibit the ICE startup (within preset limits) in order to get you home to the anticipated charge cycle WITHOUT starting up ICE.


  185. Zach
    Vote -1 Vote +1Zach     Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 5:54 am

    USELESS.

    If some idiot happened to use all their fuel and battery energy, they shouldn’t be driving a vehicle at all.

    To close-out the argument, it SHOULDN”T happen to anyone more than once a year (or less) and that person will certainly be near a fueling station (within walking distance, assuming America doesn’t get any fatter).

    It’s just another reason to jack the price up for insurance.


  186. texas
    Vote -1 Vote +1texas     Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    Due to the warrantee issues I say leave the “limp home” function hidden from the driver. Maybe only a special secrete OnStar function. Let’s say there’s a woman in the car about to give birth and is only a few miles from the hospital. They can call OnStar and be on their way. The violation would be recorded and must be disclosed to the next owner. However, this would be a legitimate reason to use any and all resources available to you.

    As batteries become more powerful and cheaper I see “limp home” hardware as being a very small ICE (.5 L?) that will just be used to get the vehicle home. The ICE will barely be enough to drive the car on the highway at 55 mph. Forget about passing or snappy performance. This will reduce the weight, size, gas mileage and cost of the range extender. In fact, this is the option I want. Just a very small “limp home” range extender with a battery that can move the car around 100 miles. This would reduce gasoline use to very small quantities for the majority of the world’s drivers.

    In a few years quick-charge batteries will become available and be worked into the drivetrain. The small “limp home” range extender will still be needed to transition us to a full EV transportation infrastructure. As soon as there is adequate charging infrastructure the ICE can be left to rust and eventually not be included at all. However, given the vast size of many countries it may take many decades to reach adequate charging infrastructure… Even here in the U.S.


  187. mikefromnh
    Vote -1 Vote +1mikefromnh     Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    the first person that gets killed or injured walking down a highway will decide this, gm will be sued for not allowing the use of the reserve, and will have to change the protocol. i envision an override button on the touch screen. press it and you get limp home, but you have to agree to warranty voids or proration.


  188. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    mikefromnh #187

    “the first person that gets killed or injured walking down a highway will decide this, gm will be sued for not allowing the use of the reserve, and will have to change the protocol.”

    *** *** ***

    Sorry, but it won’t stick. This would enable anyone to sue current vehicle manufacturers in the same situation for not engineering an alternative propulsion mode to cover for bad judgment. Maybe….just maybe in CA. but elsewhere, forget it.


  189. Nate
    Vote -1 Vote +1Nate     Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 12:44 am

    This is a pointless discussion (it was obvious from the article that they will not allow this), but I feel the need to say that I’ve driven a lot of miles in a lot of different vehicles and I’ve never once ran out of gas. I even owned an old S-10 (for about 3 years) with a broken gas gauge and just put gas in every 250 miles. All newer cars warn you well ahead of time that you’re low on gas anyway.


  190. Pat
    Vote -1 Vote +1Pat     Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 9:09 am

    The one firm belief that I have is that if this care is brought out as a very pricey car then some things should be included as free items. one is On-Star and free service for the first three years of ownership. GM needs to support this car in every way. I for one will be very hesitant to buy the car if I do not get some value added benefits. Having On-Star would benefit both GM and the user by not allowing someone to cause a situation that would be detrimental to the car. Calling for a gas refill or directing someone to a gas station in this situation is positive in all respects.


  191. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    NO ONSTAR!

    Look, this is an “Electric Vehicle” in a snse that it’s “Primary” and really only method of propulsion is electricity (the ICE does not drive the vehicle). People don’t need onstar (you have a cell phone), you don’t need “limp mode” (mute point-limp mode = limp drivers), power windows (use your arms they’re fat already), power locks (gentlemen open doors for ladies) power sunroof (sunroof=engineered/eventual leak) or even a 10 speaker stereo (GET AN iPOD or iPhone!) (GM had to work hard to fit this in). All of that uses an a$$ load of electricity. Why add anymore crap to suck up your juice. The less devices the better.

    I bet if GM sold a stripped down version minus everything I mentioned, they will sell more of that model than of their original.

    Oh. by the way, Onstar will automatically start charging you after your first period of free trial unless you jump through hoops to cancel the service.


  192. N Riley
    Vote -1 Vote +1N Riley     Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    I have not been keeping up with the site since Thursday afternoon. Been off on vacation and had more important things to do. But, in my opinion, I don’t think a limp home mode would be the thing to do. That is what we have fuel gauges for. GM could give an audible warning when the fuel gets at or below 1 gallon and remind the driver each time he starts the car up until the tank is filled. But some of us here has stated they intended to run the car with no gas or very little gas in the tank. So, for those of you who run out of gas, sorry about that. You will learn next time, maybe. Maybe Uncle Sam will come to your rescue. Just one more thing to add to our Nanny Government. I am sure the Nanny will have something to say about this.


  193. William Hudgens
    Vote -1 Vote +1William Hudgens     Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Is this just a pipe dream? About 10 years back I never got my lease on the EV1 Gen2. It program to on hold then cut. I don’t trust GM. I really home I am wrong.. I would love to pay cash for the GM Volt. I really hope it will be a reality!
    God Bless USA

    B


  194. charley497
    Vote -1 Vote +1charley497     Says:
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Limp home is a bad Idea….. Lithium batteries are a lot different from lead acid or NiMH. The lithium battery cannot be discharged beyond 3.1 volts pr cell. To discharge them farther would probably make them useless. In my experience with lithium batteries a fully charged cell will show about 4.2 volts. Fully discharged beyond 3.1 volts is ruined. The volt pack will have about 300 cells, each cell would have to be monitored to stay above 3.1 volts per cell. To try to limp home and drop the cell’s below 3.1 volts each would be really stupid. Just call a tow truck. If I’m wrong about this I would really like to hear from a battery expert.


  195. Mike-Ro
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mike-Ro     Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    I would rather they let you set your own depletion points. that way you could set it to +50% above depletion when you are on a long trip. Then you could run the gas really low and if you did run out you’d have enough charge to get you 20 miles or so.

    I would rather, on long trips run the ICE to keep the car in full state of charge or at least near it. Then when I hit stopped traffic I could shut the ICE off and run on Electric until it cleared.


  196. erollurse
    Vote -1 Vote +1erollurse     Says:
    December 29th, 2008 at 7:35 am

    hello it is test. WinRAR provides the full RAR and ZIP file support, can decompress CAB, GZIP, ACE and other archive formats.
    ozllfimtygsywxqwfypzkytxobgomkgvgeqhello

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