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2009 Saturn VUE 2-Mode Hybrid First Drives

October 26th, 2008 | Posted in: Hybrid

GM will soon be introducing a Saturn VUE with a 2-mode hybrid drivetrain. This complex strong hybrid drivetrain is presently only available on the Chevy Tahoe, Cadillac Escalade, and Chevy Silverado pickup truck. More robust and complex than Toyota’s synergy drive system, the two mode system uses 2 electric motors, one for low speed driving and the other for high speed assist. A 300 V nickel metal hydride battery and regenerative brakes are on board as well as complex controllers which continuously decide between running the combustion engine or one of the two electric motors depending on the driving needs of each moment.

The 2009 VUE marks the first entry of this drivetrain into a smaller form vehicle.

GM invited a few bloggers out to test drive the vehicle at Bear Mountain just outside of New York City, including representatives from Jalopnik and Autoblog.

It turns out the car is fairly powerful. It uses a V-6 engine which generates 262 hp and 250 ft-lbs of torque, and is capable of performing 0 to 60 in 7.3 seconds and towing 3500 pounds. It achieves a projected 28 mpg city/31 mpg hwy and a projected sticker price of less than $33,000.

Of note the currently available mild hybrid VUE achieves 25 mpg city/32 mpg hwy for a sticker price of $28,265. This current mild hybrid VUE uses a 4 cylinder engine to achieve those numbers. I too wonder as Jalopnik did, why GM wouldn’t mate the 2-mode system with an efficient 4 cylinder engine and perhaps have been the first automaker to market a 40 mpg SUV.

In any event, the car will launch by year end. A plug-in version is due in 2010, which uses lithium ion battery and is expected to achieve double the mpg of this car.

Source (Autoblog) and (Jalopnik)

Posted by: Lyle

91 Responses to “2009 Saturn VUE 2-Mode Hybrid First Drives”

asdkfj Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

First!

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Texas Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

It disappoints me that GM did not see the marketing potential of using a the same 4 cylinder ICE (or even a smaller one) as used in the mild hybrid. Unless of course the numbers were not good enough and would make the technology not seem “More robust and complex than Toyota’s synergy drive system”.

Do you really want a system that is more robust and complex if it doesn’t produce the desired result (the economy and reliability of the Prius)? I don’t. I’m going to wait for the Volt.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

In this case “more robust” is more of an engineering term for stronger, more capapble and more able to take on significant payload, than to merely achieve fuel economy in functional mediocrity.

Definately more purpose built, it’s a mid-size SUV with 3500lbs towing capacity and 50% improved economy than the non-hybrid version. The 2-Mode technology is slightly more complex but significantly superior to the 1-mode (”input-split” only Synergy drive)

If a Prius (or Volt) is able to meet your needs, that’s fine, but they DONT for many.
This 2-Mode VUE is a long time coming (and the plug-in version should be here by Q:2 2009

I love it and have been waiting patiently to make it’s appearance as for my needs it represents the perfect balance of functionality and green responsibility

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Kent Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

Sounds great, but personally, if I was in the market for this, I’d wait a little longer for the plug-in model.

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Dave G Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

I still have no idea why they would need two electric motors.

Unlike gasoline engines, larger electric motors are more efficient. In other words, with the same car going at the same speed, meaning the electric motor has the same RPM, a larger electric motor would use less electricity than a smaller electric motor. This is the exact opposite of gasoline engines.

So, why would they need 2 electric motors? Why not just use 1 bigger electric motor? Can someone explain this?

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dylan Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

mpg not inpressive the ford escape gets 34 city

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

Yea, but under-powered the Ford Escape has limited payload capability and only 1000lbs towing capacity. Plus the Ford Escape Hybrid actually uses MORE fuel on the highway (30mpg vs. 31 for the Vue) as it’s working that much harder.

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

I’d like to see this technology (2 mode with 3500# towing capacity) in a pickup sized to get 30+ mpg.

Anyone know how reliable the two mode drive train has been? It looks impressive and complicated.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/0802_gm_two_mode_hybrid_technology_of_the_year/index.html

Having said that, you still have to wonder if a small turbocharged diesel mated to an efficient transmission might be the better way to go if you want moderate heavy/hauling capability.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

#5 Dave G
FYI- All hybrids currently use at least 2 electric motors. One (MG2) is primarily the EV motor for low speed electric only operation and for power creation/charging during regenerative deceleration and braking.

The other (MG1) is used to “instant-start” the ICE, charge the battery when the ICE is running AND provide a variable speed reaction member to permit variable transmission ratios

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john1701a Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

So, why would they need 2 electric motors? Why not just use 1 bigger electric motor? Can someone explain this?
______________________________________

Since the difference between ASSIST and FULL types has been discussed several times here, can we assume you’re just pointing out the need for making permanent references available?

Educating others about the differences in hybrid design is quite an important topic. Where should we start?

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Morgan Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Just in general:

If anyone needs a mild hybrid the price on a used Vue Green Line is extremely nice right now. 26 city/31 hwy and there are used ones out there 2007-2008 with 15-20,000 miles on them for $12k-$15k. Darn good deals. If the technology wasn’t getting ready to explode and change rapidly I would have been all over it.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

#8 carcus
You mean like this???
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/hybrid2009/

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john1701a Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

All hybrids currently use at least 2 electric motors.
_______________________________________

ASSIST hybrids only have one. It is very small and integrated directly with the engine. In the case of BAS (the mild GM hybrid), it is actually a specialized alternator. In the case of IMA (the Honda hybrids), it is an electricic motor sharing the same drive-shaft… so RPM is always the same as the engine, which limits ability, hence “assist”.

FULL hybrids (Toyota, Ford, and GM Two-Mode) have two electric motors and a split-device. This allows for independent control of each component, including the engine. The result is much greater flexibility, allowing for many more efficiency opportunities… not limited, hence “full”.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

I guess I should have specified I was referring to “strong” hybrids with full EV capability. Not the mild (aka “assist”) variety

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

#12 Curtis,

Well, I think the Silverado Hybrid’s gonna average 19 mpg.

I don’t know if a lot of pickup drivers will spring all the cash for the complicated hybrid system just to move from 15 to 19 mpg. But if they can get to 30 mpg they might. For an efficient work truck I’d lose the big extended cab, use aluminum where possible, and make it at least a 7′ bed.

I think this would appeal to pickup drivers who use it for work or towing. The people who actually need a pickup, not a car.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

I think not
Why would it average LESS than the Tahoe and Yukon 2-modes that average 21mpg? IMO they are lighter with less drag and since they will have the exact same powertrain they should do BETTER not worse.

Actually I found the EPA rating new 2009 2-Mode Silverado Sierra pickups on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml

It states 21city 22hwy

They also have 6200 lbs towing capability so…

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lh_newbie Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

My big concern with the “hybrid” design is an extremely complicated transmission that has to take input from an ICE and/or an electric motor. This model uses two electric motors and has more complication – no thank you. I’ll wait for my EREV version, thank you very much. I am either buying EREV or buying used until EREV is available. I love the simplified drivetrain and will not get a “hybrid” in today’s essence – either synergy drive or this 2-mode version…

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Have you seen the photos of the Volt transaxle?
The FWD EREV transmission also has 2 electric motors (albeit MG1 is significantly smaller) and will be more complicated than you may think

If your not currently in the market for a vehicle larger than a Volt (or a Prius for that matter) then obviously an SUV hybrid will be less attractive. But some people who NEED the room or payload capability will be willing to comprimise, as long as it doesnt add TOO much $$$ to the bottom line of the deal.

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

#16 Curtis,

Ok, 21 mpg, NOT 19. I think YOU WERE RIGHT. I was looking at a pre release MAGAZINE ARTICLE.

jeez….

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Grizzly Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

That ICE seems a bit too powerful for any realistic break from the OPEC/ OIL INDUSTRY grip. I’m really confused by GM, I’m ptimistic but I just don’t get it. It has already been stated, but what is wrong with a four banger? Will GM ever break free of muscle car mania?

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Dave99 Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

#17. lh_newbie,

If you drive one of the two-modes, I think your perception that they are too complicated will change. When I took one out for a spin, I was very impressed at how smooth the transitions were and how well they behave.

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Grizzly Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

Let me qualify #20 if I may. What on earth is wrong with delivering a vehicle that rides, handles and is a pleasure to be in and also delivers mega mileage? Why in this and future economies must we always find a way to deliver “pony car” in every offering? When I posted a couple of days ago about a balanced portfolio of cars, I was right. Had GM had this portfolio they wouldn’t be quite as deep in sheep dip as they are today. So they come out with a VERY nice vehicle (and I know this about the Opel platform here) and they’ve still got to market it as though it’ll be driven by teenagers running drag races in an empty lot on a late Friday night.

I’m a fan, but what is wrong here GM??

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

My point was, I think a decent priced (around $20k), decent sized (slightly larger than colorado, with 7′ bed) work truck with good (30 mpg ish) mileage and some towing capability would sell. [the hybrid vue drive train looks like it could deliver if placed in the right sized pickup]
I’m not so sure about a ($33k?) full sized truck that gets 21 mpg. Maybe I’m wrong. It’ll be interesting to see how sales go for the hybrid silverado.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

Grizzly
While I hear what you’re saying (about oil independance), but EVs & HEVs just cant do it all… YET! A commuter vehicle such as the Volt is one thing. But I for one CANNOT haul my wife, 2.5 kids,1.5 dogs and all my gear to soccer/hockey/camping (circle one) in a VOLT or a PRIUS. (Let alone pull my tent trailer for 3 weeks in th summer)

Innovative hybrid technologies such as this 2-Mode Vue will have to do me until there’s something better OR the kid move out!! LOL

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Now and Then Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

At a price of under $33,000 this will be a great deal for a high MPG SUV. GM is looking better and better.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

#19 carcus
Ok, 21 mpg, NOT 19. I think YOU WERE RIGHT. I was looking at a pre release MAGAZINE ARTICLE.
jeez…
————————————
Sorry dude. Didnt mean to sound nit-picky.
But 15>19mpg equates to only a 26% improvment but 15>21 is a full 40% improvement (combined) and can obviously add up to significant savings if you NEED a full size pickup and especially if you put on a lot of miles
[/soapbox]

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Grizzly Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

Curtis #24

Then either a Tahoe or Suburban 2-mode will pull your boat. For most people considering a CUV, people hauling is the name of the game. And for a small CUV like the Vue, that is exactly what we’re talking about. With dual powerful assist electric motors a fuel efficient 4 banger should suffice. Offer it at 40 mpg!

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John Es Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

Saturn VUE, Chevy Tahoe, Cadillac Escalade, and Chevy Silverado – all more than most Americans need, and GM has done a great job of selling them at good profit margins. Unfortunately, the party is not what is used to be, and not having a plan B in case of an economic downturn, high gas prices, etc. means GM will be at a competitive disadvantage. They have nothing to blame but their own greed.

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

#26 curtis,

No doubt, 15 to 21 is a big improvement, as long as purchase price and maintenance costs are reasonable.

# 28 John,

I agree. Lots of guys I know don’t need a giant pickup. They just need a pickup.

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Jeff M Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

Sounds like progress to me, as long as the folks buying them are ones that really need the capacity (passenger and/or towing). Even with gas at $4 it was still amazing to see all these big SUV’s with the only passenger being the driver, usually some small petite woman!

GM may not want to advertise the “more complex than a Prius” part though… sounds like even more moving parts, and that’s going the complete opposite direction the Volt is as a series hybrid BEV.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

#29 carcus

I’m totally with you on that!
IMO that was the marketing error GM made on the 2-mode Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade in that they dont offer a “stripped down” base model with the 2-mode powertrain. Instead they’re available only in a single bloated (and expensive) “deluxe” trim level with power everything (even pedals) ,LCD navigation systems, backup cameras, multi-zone heating/cooling with rear radio and HVAC control, electronic suspension control etc etc.

What we need is (like you’ve implied) is a base model, non-crew cab (extended cab perhaps- the 300V battery has to go somewhere!) pickup suitable for small business and light commercial use. If they operated mostly in urban areas this could equate to significantly reduced operating overhead IMO.

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Gary Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

I test drove a Hybrid Yukon just a few days ago just for kicks. Going 50 km/h (30 mph) when the 4-cylinder mode activated, the display was showing fuel economy of 35 mpg. Not bad. Mind you, stop and go traffic will lower that. When coming to a stop, the gas engine turned off, and when accelerating in slow moving traffic, it stayed in electric mode up until 40 km/h (25 mph) when the gas engine turned on so seamlessly that you’d need to look at the tachometer to know when it turned on.

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carcus Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

#31 Curtis,

Yeah, maybe CEO Wagoner will read this, the light bulb will come on, and he’ll send us his October paycheck.

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curtis Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

#32 Gary
I drove one back last spring too, and was equally impressed (except for the price) and have been waiting patiently for this Vue 2-Mode to become available.

Seems like they are arriving a bit later than originally planned as I was told by my local Saturn dealer back in April the 2-Mode Vue would be here by August. My plan is to get one of these ASAP with an agreement with my dealer for a trade-up clause to the “plug-in” version AS SOON as he gets one in (hopefully no more than 6-12 months later)

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Casey Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 11:58 pm

This is driving me crazy, it’s staying the same, you can get cars like the Vue all over the place that gets a lot more mpg, why do they think that is so great, I have a dodge diesel pu that gets 22mph pulling a 8 ton 5th wheel, I have a corolla that gets almost 40 mpg, these cars and trucks are all over the place.

What we want is an EV that doesn’t use gas, we want off oil, why wont the auto makers work on giving us these things that will do the jobs like the gas cars and trucks do, instead of giving us more of the same, wake up GM before its too late

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curtis Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 12:10 am

What a crock
So your miracle diesel truck gets better mileage than a 4cyl diesel Passat? (while towing 16,000lbs no less) LOL
Maybe check your math!
You can’t wean the country off oil over night, and one company can hardly represent the single-handed catalyst.
Besides you hardly sound like GM faithful or anything- so save your baited breath for Dodge and Toyota (since they aren’t doing any better right now)

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Texas Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 12:51 am

That people are even still talking about SUVs that get 30 mpg or less tells me we are still in for more pain. Now that the price of gas is back down people will be back in the showrooms checking out the SUVs.

WE WILL NEVER LEARN.

Fulfilling the needs of the US population – towing, hulling all the kids, etc. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!

How come SUVs and personal trucks were not needed for the 800,000 years since fire was used by humans? Why don’t families in every other country on earth need SUVs? Answer: We are spoiled energy and resource whores. Once we admit it we can begin to fix the problem.

Reminder: There have been no new great discoveries of oil (that can offset the declining wells). Every day oil gets more expensive to explore and extract. Now that the price of oil has gone down so will investment. That means even less new oil 5 to 10 years from now. THE PROBLEM IS GOING TO RETURN!!!!!!

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Casey Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 1:10 am

curtis your full of it, before my last computer download on my 2004 dodge diesel pu six gear 1 ton I was only getting 17 mpg pulling my 5th wheel, now it gets 22 mpg

Texas, I think your right things might get back to normal, try not to buy anymore new gas cars

NO PLUG, NO SALE, NO WAY, =D—-$00.00

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Mike D Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 1:22 am

This is one of the first important questions I thought of, but haven’t seen an answer in the posts:

Does the saturn 2 mode hybrid have fuel shutoff during coasting and while stopped?

For a feather foot driver, IE whenever you’re not towing something, or really late for some event, this option is a BIG deal and is a major reason people can get above and beyond they’re sticker MPG.

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Dave K. Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 4:11 am

262 HP with 31 MPG hwy ~ 0 to 60 in 7.3 seconds … I like it.

The Saturn arm of GM has a reputation for being more than just a car manufacturer. A good local buddy, and N. Carolina Tarheel, said he purchased his Vue because Saturn cared about the Katrina disaster. In his own words, “What other car company stepped up?”.

GM Saturn supports several noble efforts via employee payroll deduction:

United Way ~ Katrina relief
Mothers Against Drunk Driving
The Nature Conservancy
The Marrow Foundation

=D~

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 6:18 am

The guys at work who I cannot see ever driving anything but oversized cars and trucks can save gas too. For me nothing but the Volt will do. We have to be able to get the Gas Guzzlers off the road. This is a step in the right direction. Even for Air Haulers.
Take Care,
TED

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nuclearboy Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 6:18 am

I enjoy constantly reading the hypocrites who like to say that Americans don’t need this or that vehicle. They know best. What a crock.

I guess whatever they drive and own is really “what Americans need”. I would like to do an energy audit on these people. Unless they walk and/or ride Mopeds everywhere and live in an underground 200 square foot home with 1-20 watt bulb, they are using too much energy and should stop pointing fingers.

I think this new Saturn will be just what some people need. They have cheaper 4 cyl and this 6 which can tow a little. And with the plug in on the way, GM should have a hit on their hands.

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J Man Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 6:49 am

262 hp, I would assume this is the 3.6l aluminum v6. Way too much engine for this size vehicle. If they can do this with the Vue when are we going to see 2 mode Enclave, Acadia and Traverse than can carry 7 people and get 30 mpg?

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BillR Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:21 am

Great vehicle!!

Can tow 3500 lbs, good performance, great economy. The 4 cyl. Rav4 only gets 22/28 city/hwy. Quit your bit%*in. This is a great step forward and will be a good fit for people who currently have large or mid-size SUV’s.

The other important step is that this is a FWD vehicle. I expect to see a similar hybrid system in something like the Malibu and many other GM cars with FWD.

When the plug-in versions with their Li-Ion batteries appear, the mileage ratings will double? And this isn’t significant? If not, maybe we need to talk about eliminating the Volt and forcing everyone to take mass transit, because that will be the most efficient means of transportation. All we need to do is eliminate freedom of choice.

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Spin Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:35 am

I think the folks that are criticizing this vehicle are losing sight of the big picture. While this vehicle may not be my vehicle of choice, it will fill the needs of some people. Every little bit helps. Hybrids, 2 modes, EREVs, BEVs, we need them all. Every more efficient new model that comes to market is helping us reduce our dependence on foreign oil. All the major auto producers will be rolling out many more efficient vehicle choices in the next few years. I hope that even though gas prices are falling, we consumers will embrace them, and the auto producers will continue to produce them.

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THOM Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:42 am

” It achieves a projected 28 mpg city/31 mpg hwy ”

Did it ACTUALLY achieve 28/31 MPG??

What is the purpose of the word “projected mpg”

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john1701a Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:46 am

All the major auto producers will be rolling out many more efficient vehicle choices in the next few years.
_______________________________________

Choice?

If people are asking where’s the 4-cylinder version, the efficiency option they would like obviously isn’t available. Greenwashing is providing options that seem appealing but don’t actually meet the need.

Getting at least 40 MPG is quite realistic of an expectation. How many of those new vehicles being rolled out will deliver that?

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THOM Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:47 am

What the purpose of the high speed assist motor when you have 262 HP in a small car??

Many of the so called “mustle: cars in the 70s didnt sport 262 hp!
.

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Nelson Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 7:55 am

Nuclearboy #42
“And with the plug in on the way”

You said it. This VUE is a waste of time and money. Why would anyone want to spend a dime on a 2-mode VUE with old heavy battery technology and no plug, when they can wait for the lithium ion battery version that can be plugged in and is “expected to achieve double the mpg”? Ridiculous money wasting decisions like this, gives me zero confidence in the current GM management team.

No wonder the stock price is where it is.

Is there no one at GM with any common sense?

NPNS !

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Morgan Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:06 am

39 Mike D:

Yes, if you read the Jalopnik or autoblog articles it states exactly that. You can hypermile this thing if you want to.

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Morgan Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:11 am

37 Texas:

Oh, you are one of those people who just irrationally hate SUVs. Why aren’t you railing about BMW Z4’s, Corvettes, Tuner cars…etc etc. No, its always the SUV even though they are making them more efficient and saving more gasoline than going from a 30 mpg econo car to a 40 mpg econo car.

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Brad Horton Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:23 am

More robust and complex? I think Toyota’s is at least more complex. It also has 2 electric motors, and are used at both high and low speed. The only difference is in the power split device, which… I assume GM is using some sort of a CVT device. Liam, I like you but you have to be less bias and do your homework before posting.

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john1701a Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:23 am

…saving more gasoline than going from a 30 mpg econo car to a 40 mpg econo car.
______________________________________

How much gas you USE is far more important than how much you SAVE.

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Tim Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:32 am

No Plug?

NO SALE!

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Dave B Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:36 am

Nelson @ 49:

you said, “This VUE is a waste of time and money. Why would anyone want to spend a dime on a 2-mode VUE with old heavy battery technology and no plug, when they can wait for the lithium ion battery version that can be plugged in and is “expected to achieve double the mpg”? Ridiculous money wasting decisions like this, gives me zero confidence in the current GM management team.”

I agree completely. Why would GM waste the resources in this garbage when the general public won’t.

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nuclearboy Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:45 am

I would argue that people will still buy this vehicle even after the plug in option becomes available. The batteries will be costly and heavy and the payback may not be there for some. The plug in option only helps for the first 20 or 30 miles and then it back to the standard hybrid performance. Options are good. I hope they sell a bunch of these and get more experience with the hybrid system.

The vehicle is already pretty cool and having a battery option will be great for some.

I hope they are working on making this smaller and getting somthing like this in a chevy cruze sized vehicle. Imaging what a two mode hybrid system could do for the already efficient cruze design.

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Cautious Fan Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:58 am

#5 DaveG

I haven’t seen an answer to your question DaveG. I was wondering the same thing as you. Why 2 motors and not 1? I’ve got an opinion, though I’m not the most informed on electric motors.

While an electric motor is capable of high-torque at low rpm’s, the efficiency is quit low and they’ll overheat during extende usage. So I suspect if you’re going to be in this operating band much (towing), you’d want 2 gears. But with how cheap and reliable electric motors are, maybe it’s cheaper to use 2 motors, rather than 1 motor with a 2 speed transmission.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 9:10 am

Off topic.

For the first time, I rode in a Prius yesterday.
I don’t know why some people on this blog have such a problem with the car.

The lady who was driving simply sat down, pushed the power button, put the car in drive and we took off. The key stayed in her pocket. When she pushed the power button, the entire dash lit up. The car is not as quiet as I expected, but I expected total silence. It gives instant feedback on MPG. While driving downhill, the MPG was 99.9. When going uphill, the ICE turned on. That is really loud, but it might just be because of the car was quiet to begin with. The car has very adequate pickup. I was unable to figure out how regen braking works. I expected it to work when coasting down hill, but I guess it only works with the brakes are pressed.
I think my understanding of Regen braking is lacking.

The lady has kept very careful records of her gas mileage since she bought the car 1.5 years ago. On a trip, with hypermileing, she got 60 MPG. Normal week to week driving gets her 47 MPG on average. She was quick to say that some weeks it is less and some weeks it is more. But that 47 was average. I saw her records and it seems she is correct.
It has a camera for backing up that shows up on the main screen in the dash.

Overall, I liked the car. I wouldn’t mind buying one except I have a rule.
My rule: No plug, no sale.

But for the $23K she paid for it, and the 47 MPG (she fills up the gas tank twice a month), it is not difficult to justify this car for commuting purposes.

$40K for the Volt is much harder to justify. Especially with the gas price dropping like it is. This is very unfortunate in my opinion since people usually vote with their wallet.

One final comment: The Prius, in my opinion, is not an attractive car. However, it does help us break our addiction.
IMO, this is more important than looks.

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Jason The Saj Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 9:40 am

I think you guys are missing it…

First off, they will probably come out with a 4-cyclinder higher MPG version down the road. But what I think they are trying to do is provide a towing capable mid-range vehicle.

And frankly, if you don’t understand the importance of this you know nothing about automobiles. There is NO reason for an SUV except the capability to tow and haul cargo.

If you do NOT need to tow or haul cargo, then you should just get a car. If you need the 7+-passenger requirement of some SUVs. Than buy a mini-van.

The BIGGEST NUMBER ONE WASTE OF GAS in this country is not SUVs, but rather crossover SUVs that are incapable of towing and are merely status symbols. (ie: I don’t want a mini-van). If that is your intent, please do the world a favor and get a car.

This way, those of us who need SUVs to tow and haul gear, to accomplish work, won’t have all these people on our back criticizing us unfairly.

Thank you!

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Fred Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Gas at $1.86 in Laredo, TX. i hope people dont ignore the electric cars again like they did before.

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Joe Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:11 am

I too, have always wondered why GM didn’t mate the two mode transmission with a four cylinder instead of the bigger engines. Somehow, I think cost is the factor as to why GM did it this way.

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Joe Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am

October 26th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
#
Dave G Says: @5

I still have no idea why they would need two electric motors.

Unlike gasoline engines, larger electric motors are more efficient. In other words, with the same car going at the same speed, meaning the electric motor has the same RPM, a larger electric motor would use less electricity than a smaller electric motor. This is the exact opposite of gasoline engines.

So, why would they need 2 electric motors? Why not just use 1 bigger electric motor? Can someone explain this?

*********************************************************

I don’t know where you get the idea that a larger electric motor uses less electricity versus a smaller motor going the same RPM. Your analysis is wrong. Motors have to be sized according to their loads to be efficient. The two mode,as you know, has two motors. One for high speed and another for low speed. Because like I said, loads are different from lower speeds than what they are at higher speeds.

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noel park Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:42 am

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:47 am

@60 Fred,

>> Gas at $1.86 in Laredo, TX

You’re lucky! It’s still in the $2.55-$2.80 range here, near Milwaukee, WI, depending where you get it and whether you’ll pay cash for it.

>> i hope people dont ignore the electric cars again like they
>> did before.

Believe me, I commute in a full-size pickup, so I’m grateful gas is dropping. Hell, it’s the only up-side I see to this economic meltdown! But just like the market, eventually I know gas prices will be going back up. Therefore I want my next vehicle to get at LEAST 150% more miles-per-gallon. I get about 16MPG now, and I want 45+ for my near-term (<5 years out) commuter-mobile.

As that’s the case, even cheap gas won’t make me lose interest. I hope the majority of folks can see that far down the road, and keep their eyes on the prize (electric drive) for similar reasons.

Now, an excessively priced vehicle… that’s another matter. Please GM, find a way to cut costs on the Volt, and get e-Flex into many different vehicle classes, PDQ!!

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ThombDbhomb Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:53 am

#58 Rashiid Amul
It is more complicated than that; you need to hold the brake down when you push the power button. I agree, the Prius is not a bad little car. As far as regen braking, the Prius display can show a graphic depicting where the energy is going at any given time. While coasting down a big hill, the graphic told me I was recharging the battery.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:56 am

#60 Fred
Yesterday, I paid $3.15/gallon on California’s central coast.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 10:56 am

64 Mike-o-Matic says,

Now, an excessively priced vehicle… that’s another matter. Please GM, find a way to cut costs on the Volt, and get e-Flex into many different vehicle classes, PDQ!!

—————
I second this. I strongly believe that GM has the potential of killing this car by pricing it too expensively. Joe six-pack, Joe the plumber, or Joe whoever, is not going to pay an exorbitant amount of money for a vehicle unless it makes sense to his own bottom line.

The R&D for the Volt is high. I understand that. But I would hope there is a way to sell it inexpensively, and make it up in volume.

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N Riley Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 11:40 am

My first thought is as stated in the article: Why not use the 4 cylinder engine and get 40 mpg? Even 35 mpg would be better. Maybe GM will offer it in both engines. Maybe. Somehow I don’t think they will. I just don’t know how GM thinks about things like MPG. Form should follow substance, not the other way around. The auto world is moving into a MPG category of vehicles. The ability to haul loads or pull trailers is important, but to a very small and shrinking percentage of the buying public. If someone needs to pull a trailer or boat, generally their load requires a vehicle larger and more powerful than the Vue.

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N Riley Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

#6 dylan

“mpg not inpressive the ford escape gets 34 city”

———————————

EXACTLY!!!!! It would seem GM cannot top Toyota’s mpg since Ford uses Toyota’s hybrid system in the Escape. The Escape is a good choice for city driving. But it is also expensive, I believe. Who knows for sure which will end up better. GM may be able to deliver a good mpg vehicle with the two-mode system.

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statik Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Okie dokie, here is my problem with it (big surprise huh?)”

Hybrid 28/31MPG, 29.5MPG combined –$33,000
Stardard Vue 19/26MPG, 22MPG combined–$23,700

EPA average cost of operation: $1986 for standard Vue, extapolated cost on 2 mode hybrid Vue $1,500ish

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

So you save maybe $500 bucks BEFORE your account for increased insurance and maintenance. Best case is it takes you 26 years to make up the differance on the bottom line price.

Until a hybrid can pass any kind of logical payback test or have its existance justified by being able to be plugged in for some measure of ‘gas-free’ use, it is useless…and won’t sell, just like the rest of GM’s other ‘premium hybrids’

/lesson not learned

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N Riley Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

#58 Rashiid Amul

Now you see what I experienced when I drove a Prius. I had a hard time not buying the Prius over the 2009 Honda Accord EX-L that I did buy a couple weeks ago. So far I have about 450 miles on the Accord and still have over a quarter of tank of gas left. I haven’t filled it up since purchasing it. It did have about 120 miles on it before the dealer filled it up. So, I have about 330 miles on the three quarters of a tank. I still sometimes wonder if I purchased the right car. I really did like the Prius, but the Accord was the car I decided I needed for an all purpose car to fulfill my many needs. It wasn’t just gas mileage I wanted. But, I did like the Prius experience and may end up buying one with a plug if the Volt is out of reach.

At this point I was not ready to stick to the “No Plug, No Sale” mantra. I needed a car and the plug-in variety was not available. My next car, yes, it is “No Plug, No Sale” for me, also.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

#70 Statik

I feel like GM is not pricing the two-mode Vue where they could. They are pricing the vehicle too high because they think they have a vehicle people will want to purchase, therefore they can make more money on it. The real price of the vehicle should be around $26,000 to $27,000. Yes, I think they have more than doubled the premium over the standard Vue just because they think they will sell plenty of them at that price. I think they will not. IMO.

(Quote)
Joe OBrien Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Should at least make a 4 cylinder option for those who never tow stuff and want a 40mpg vehicle.

Not everyone tows stuff all the time. C’mon GM, get the clue we don’t all want just POWER, POWER, POWER, we want economy.

I had higher hopes for this SUV. We’ll see what the plug in version brings.

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Tom H Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

What the purpose of the high speed assist motor when you have 262 HP in a small car??

Many of the so called “mustle: cars in the 70s didnt sport 262 hp!
.

———————————————————————–
If you are trying to accelerate rapidly, flooring a 262 hp engine will do what you want, but the fuel cost for that little maneuver is exhorbitant, due to the power curve of an ICE. An ICE inherently has low torque at low RPM, so to apply a lot of torque, even for a few seconds, takes lots and lots of gas.

A cheaper way (in terms of energy requirements) is to use the ICE, but don’t open up the throttle so much. Instead, use an electric motor to help it. Electric motors are more efficient users of energy when high torque is needed at low RPM.

In short, the electric motor assist saves gas.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

In short, the electric motor assist saves gas.
____________________________________

Very little though. That’s the point of confusion, where greater understanding is essential…

Electricity is needed. Having a second motor available is the key. Using it allows the system to overcome inherent shortcomings of engines by capturing energy that would normally be lost. Rather than constantly adjusting RPM, it runs relatively constant and the second motor gets fed instead.

In other words, FULL hybrids have a much more ample supply of electricity available than ASSIST hybrids. In fact, you can end up with more in the battery-pack at the top of hill than when you started the climb from the bottom.

Motor #1 draws while Motor #2 generates. Sounds like Volt, eh?

(Quote)
firehawk72 Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

I believe GM finally did their homework on this one. They are using the bigger engine so when they offer the plug in version that will get very impressive mileage–it will be the hail mary pass that gets completed. A plug in SUV that does everything. Fantastic gas mileage, plenty of go go juice, and can actually tow a few pounds.

Hawk

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pstoller78 Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

#70 Statik

I agree with you assessment for the most part, but I don’t think it holds up under some circumstances. If a person were looking to buy a VUE the cost savings just isn’t there. But if a person were looking for a vehicle that could pull a boat/trailer/etc.. that can get that sort of mileage. For this person the correct comparison would be between the VUE any vehicle that could tow what they need. The base VUE would not be a valid comparison as it would be underpowered for towing. I’m not sure you would be able to find another towing vehicle that would get that mileage for less money.

For this reason I think they should offer the two-mode system with the 4 and 6 cylinder models. People who need to tow can buy the 6 cylinder for folks that do not and want more MPG can opt for the 4.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

hi N Riley # 71,

“…had a hard time not buying the Prius over the 2009 Honda Accord EX-L that I did buy…”

_____________________________________

I share your pain. My wife went car hunting in 06′ and looked at three cars: hybrid Civic, Prius, and Accord EX (4 cyl). We both thought the Prius was barely more than a child’s toy with it’s micro tires, 0-60 in 11+ seconds and lack of interior comfort ($26,000).

The hybrid Civic simply didn’t have the styling she wanted. She said, “Looks like my old car, boring” ($22,700).

She ended up with a white Accord EX 4dr 4cyl ($24,000). Her reasons were: bigger, nice exterior, comfortable interior, and luxury items (power sun roof, steel wheels, power driver seat, 4 wheel disc brakes, wheel mounted controls).

At $4 a gallon I doubted her decision, but now at $3 I feel she did OK. And you know as well as I do. You’re not going to change a ladies mind when she’s shopping for “her” car.

Only a plug-in for me. It won’t be a micro box or a 3 wheeled variant. And it definitely won’t be coming from China.

=D~

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

I’ve just got to wonder what this vehicle would achieve with one of GM’s new efficient 4-bangers? With 2 powerful electric motors who’s worried about moving this vehicle?

(Quote)
Mike D Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 11:34 pm

The 4-cylinder version of the 2 mode vue should get the 260 HP turbo 4 that the Cobalt SS has. A turbo hybrid! And it would get at least 5 MPG better than the 262 HP 6. 35 City 37 highway would sell alot of them….

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 12:05 am

Mike D #80

“The 4-cylinder version of the 2 mode vue should get the 260 HP turbo 4 that the Cobalt SS has. ”

*** *** ***

My point is that it doesn’t need it, especially not with dual high torque electric motors. GM it seems is just too concerned with 0-60. If this vehicle included one of GM’s fuel frugal 4 bangers it might just get 40+ highway!

(Quote)
dagwood55 Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 12:47 am

Sales on this will be underwhelming. The plain vanilla Vue is too heavy. Now, GM adds “too expensive. The two-mode transmission is extremely costly, that’s why this will be expensive. The V6 is used to sweeten the vehicle and mask that fact that it’s expensive to build (pull a little profit margin out of the bigger engine and better trim, just like the Tahoe and Yukon).

From a performance and capabiity standpoint, a 4-banger would make much more sense and get better fuel economy. For towing, the two-mode can deliver electric and gas-fired torque; a V6 is unnecessary. But the cost drives marketing decisions. Too bad.

In comparison, Toyota is driving down the cost of HSD and will be eating GM’s lunch in this market segment for a long time.

(Quote)
THOM Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 7:06 am

#74

More HP->more fuel

262 HP engine in an econobox chassis is huge..if you have 2 motor electic assist, mate a in 100 HP engine with the 2 motors. You would have sufficient power and good fuel economy.

Forget towing, anyone who would try to tow a 21 ft ski boat with a light weight (flimsey) unibody vehicle with a short wheel base is on a suiside mission!

(Quote)
Jeffrey Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Somebody please tell me why 260hp is needed to tow 3,500 lbs? My 2.4l manual 4 cyl Tacoma is rated to pull that much (and has, plus more for short distances) with 160hp, and can also get 28-30 mpg on my commute to/from work on mostly country roads and freeways… Granted, it’s not fun accelerating with a ton and a half or more behind it, but for the 2 times a year I need it, it does fine – I just stick with the 18 wheelers and go their speed. Had 15 CF of rock in the back a couple weeks ago (1 CF = 100 lbs), and once I got it up to 55mph, my Scanguage showed about 28.5mph all the way home! Yes, sometimes I wish the bed was bigger, but 6.5 feet has always been enough to do what I need… And yes, the jump seats in the extended cab aren’t great, but the fit my 5 year old daughter and her 11 year old cousin just fine.

If I’m going to be replacing that truck, the new vehicle needs to be able to do all of the above and more, or I just don’t need it. I can get around the truck bed with my small 4′x8′ trailer, but mileage has to improve, with no decrease in towing capacity, or it’s just not worth the money to me!

Sorry, did I steal somebody’s soapbox?

(Quote)
solo Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

#43 J MAN

Yours was the last post I read. I couldn’t stand listening to people say things like “Nobody needs 262 HP” , This vehicle should only have a 4 cyl engine, etc etc etc.

Well, GM has to compete with Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda etc. in the North American market.

What happens when a company introduces a new model? Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and Auto Week compare the vehicle with all its competitors. So before you bitch that GM is putting too much power in their vehicles, check out the competition. Toyota/Nissan, put V6 engines with at least this much power in their vehicles. If GM put a small 4 cyl in their vehicle, guess what, vehicle would come in dead last in the comparison test.

For that matter, check out the Toyota Camry 0 to 60mph specification (available in any back issue of the above mentioned car magazines). That car is faster than Corvette’s and Porche’s of just a few years ago. Nobody here, and I mean NOBODY HERE is cussing out Toyota for putting too much power in their vehicles.

GM is suffering from not having a balanced portfolio of vehicles and they are likely to go bankrupt because if it. However, no GM vehicle is ‘over powered’ compared the competition.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Nobody here, and I mean NOBODY HERE is cussing out Toyota for putting too much power in their vehicles.
___________________________________

That’s because the fast 0-60 was accomplished with a smaller engine.

Camry-Hybrid uses a 4-cylinder engine, delivering 33/34 MPG and a AT-PZEV emission rating at a competitive price.

(Quote)
Neil Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

I don’t see one post in this thread that recognizes that this car was approved for production over 2 years ago. The circumstances were a bit different then.

The Volt is on the “Fast Track”.

Personally, I’m looking for a vehicle to pull a small motor boat and a small sailboat. I drive a 97 Crown Vic w/190k miles that runs great. I consistantly get 23mpg combined highway/city.
I have zero capital outlay.
Maintenance is probably 300-500 per year.
The car rides like a caddy.
My insurance is next to nothing.

I’m finding it pretty hard to justify a 25-35k for a new vehicle. I just purchased a used Ford 500/Taurus (built on the S80 Volvo chassis) for 15k (wifes car) and get 24/34 hwy/city on our last trip to the mountains. This car is huge inside. It’s bigger than my Crown Vic.

I’m not sure which way I’ll go but perhaps (in a year) a used Vue 2-mode hybrid will suit me just perfectly.

Neil in NC

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
October 29th, 2008 at 9:57 am

No Plug, No Sale.

E-REV is America’s only hope of escaping the strangle hold of OPEC and foreign oil corruption and economic disaster. Recently announced plans to sell an E-REV (Opel, I think) in europe give the old world the same opportunity as well.

But, it only makes sense as a near-term solution. Full electric drive is the only way to 100% ensure we are not held hostage again to the greed and corruption of the foreign oil nations and their terrorist buddies.

A123 Systems will be offering Lithium Ion battery packs for sale to individuals for converting a vehicle to hybrid operation.

http://www.a123systems.com/#/news/news127
quote: “A123Systems will Accept Consumer Deposits for Plug-in Conversion Modules Capable of Increasing Fuel Economy to More Than 100 Miles Per Gallon and Reducing CO2 Emissions by more than 50%”

Given that, #64, Mike, you could convert your full-sized pick-up truck to either 2 mode hybrid (with a small ICE) or just go for it and get rid of terrorist-financing altogether by converting to all-electric drive. Since your vehicle is used for commuting with, presumably, only occasional hauling you could line the bed of your truck with the A123 battery modules and end up helping the environment (and provide a good example for us all).

More companies are on track to start supplying Lithium Ion battery packs as well. We as consumers must vote with our pocket books. If the auto industry is not providing the all-electric vehicles we need then we should look to those companies willing and able to convert our gas-guzzlers to all-electric drive. Imagine buying a stock vehicle with the amenities you want and have it converted and probably end up cheaper than the hybrid alternatives available from Toyota, Ford or GM.

If there is no company doing conversion to all-electric vehicles in your area then start one. The time is right. Now.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
October 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

E-REV is America’s only hope of escaping the strangle hold of OPEC and foreign oil corruption and economic disaster.
____________________________________________

With annual sales here at about 14.5 million and the life of a vehicle about 8 years, that’s totally unrealistic.

In fact, by the time Volt reaches high-volume production (at least 100,000 annually) and is afforadbly priced (nicely under $30,000), it will already be too late.

FULL hybrid production will reach 1,000,000 annually and be affordably priced within the next few years… for Toyota. What should GM be planning?

(Quote)
curtis Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:49 am

http://www.greencar.com/features/exclusive-vue-2-mode-hybrid-test/

(Quote)
Joe Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:42 am

Dave G Says:@4

“I still have no idea why they would need two electric motors.

Unlike gasoline engines, larger electric motors are more efficient. In other words, with the same car going at the same speed, meaning the electric motor has the same RPM, a larger electric motor would use less electricity than a smaller electric motor. This is the exact opposite of gasoline engines.”

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don’t get the reason why you think a larger electric motor “would use less electricity than a smaller electric motor”, I have to disagree, GM is using a “load control” and with that, the computer can decide which electric motor needs to power the the rear or front wheels dependent on the load..

(Quote)

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