Oct 22

BREAKING: LG Chem and Compact Power Inc. to Supply Volt Battery Packs

 

Reuters has just reported inside sources have confirmed that GM has chosen LG Chem along with Troy, Michigan-based Compact Power Inc. to supply the lithium-ion battery packs for the first generation Chevy Volt.

The contract will be announced in November and the terms are still being worked out.

GM and Compact Power are apparently working out the details of the commercial agreement and how to split warranty costs for the batteries.

GM hasn’t confirmed these reports but an LG Chem spokesman in Korea stated “we were informed that the results are due in November, but we didn’t get any official answer from GM yet. We hope for and expect a good result.”

As we have heard before in a subtle way from GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz, GM was only using one supplier’s packs in the mules. Concurrently, we had heard from Compact Power’s CEO that his batteries were being used in the mules. Sources have now confirmed this is the case and that the mules packs are performing flawlessly.

A123/Continental could still potentially supply Volt packs in the next generation.

Source (Reuters)


This entry was posted on Wednesday, October 22nd, 2008 at 5:33 pm and is filed under Battery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 260


  1. 1
    Talks

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:37 pm)

    First Post. Great news!


  2. 2
    vincent

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:40 pm)

    Sweet!


  3. 3
    RB

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:41 pm)

    We’ve had so many comments here about the technical superiority of A123′s batteries that I have to admit to being let down a little bit at this news. I’ll just hope that these batteries, which presumably are a little cheaper, still will do the job fine.


  4. 4
    dylan

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:44 pm)

    vote for mccain & palin


  5. 5
    Brad G

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:45 pm)

    This is great news. Maybe I’m out of the loop but today I discovered the “Peak Oil” theory. All the easy oil has been found and is in decline. Google “peak oil” to find out more.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQd5nGEkr4

    Where’s my Volt?


  6. 6
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (5:46 pm)

    RB #3

    Not to worry. As I’ve stated before, the first Volts released may not mean much more than a captured test fleet. I believe that the problem with Conti/A123 is that they were behind from the beginning because of having to switch from cylindrical to prismatic cells. Gen2 or 3 could be enough time for Conti to work out any associated problems with the packs. Another reason to shoot for one of these models.


  7. 7
    KUD

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:10 pm)

    Great another step forward


  8. 8
    RB

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:12 pm)

    #6 Grizzly — on Conti/A123
    ==========================

    Very good point, thank you. It likely will be gen2 or gen3 before there is much availability here in NC anyway, and an upgraded battery will be a nice attraction.


  9. 9
    Brett

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:15 pm)

    Naysayers have insisted the Volt is not real until there is a battery. Well, there is a battery, it’s “performing flawlessly,” and now there is a contract to mass produce that battery. Let’s get the Volt on the road!


  10. 10
    statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:19 pm)

    Well, this is good news, after all, we certainly need a battery in our Volts…although probably just about the worst kept secret on the decision between the two.


  11. 11
    2Snowboard

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:25 pm)

    I’m glad it went to the domestically based one, but I had hoped they could work out a way use either interchangeably and push any exclusivity further down the road. Undoubtedly naive on my part having no idea how automakers mass produce.

    In any event, hopefully LG Chem allows the Volt to come in under $40K. Speaking of battery power, I would assume that anyone that has two battery cells to rub together agrees with #4. (I couldn’t resist)


  12. 12
    Statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:25 pm)

    #3 RB

    We’ve had so many comments here about the technical superiority of A123’s batteries that I have to admit to being let down a little bit at this news. I’ll just hope that these batteries, which presumably are a little cheaper, still will do the job fine.

    —————-

    #6 Grizzly

    Not to worry. As I’ve stated before, the first Volts released may not mean much more than a captured test fleet. I believe that the problem with Conti/A123 is that they were behind from the beginning because of having to switch from cylindrical to prismatic cells. Gen2 or 3 could be enough time for Conti to work out any associated problems with the packs. Another reason to shoot for one of these models.
    —————————————————————-
    I had not heard that A123 was behind in anyway, I thought they were both ‘well ahead of the curve’…but you very well could be right Griz. I myself thought all along/still think that A123 was/is actually currently producing the superior product.

    I think GM chose LG…and chose them along time ago (at least in their heads), because it doesn’t have to worry about all the basic solvency/access to cash issues with LG…and just general paranoia if A123 could handle the order.

    A123 is great, but it is new and it is small, the GM order would have been a monster to A123….the same order to LG is great, but not earth shattering to them in the grand scheme.

    /I think GM is tired of propping up suppliers to keep their cars going down the line


  13. 13
    Van

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:26 pm)

    How many battery packs starting production when, and finishing when?
    What do we know about the LG batteries, specific energy, cost per KWH, cycle life and calendar life? Is LG supplying any other OEM with the same battery cells?


  14. 14
    Grant

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:26 pm)

    Now we just need to find out how this battery starts the engine, and what happens if we wanted to jump start another car?

    I think I’ll wind up carrying one of those portable power supplies with the built in cables, as a 16kW pack connecting to a 12V car battery will probably kill something…

    Meanwhile, jump-starting a Volt should only require about *1.21 GIGAWATTS?!?!?!*

    Sorry, somebody had to do it…


  15. 15
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:28 pm)

    Brett #9

    The battery is here, but like much with the Volt it is still being developed in parallel. IMHO the CPI pack is not the ultimate primarily because of chemistry but if the entire CPI pack BMS/TMS systems are working, it gives GM something to use in the test fleet. There is so much more on this car to test than just the battery and a working pack gives them what the need to get this done.


  16. 16
    Jay

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:30 pm)

    Great news, but this isn’t really a surprise. Lutz was talking about having “less risk” with one of the suppliers, which was a pretty clear indication that they wanted to go with the company that had a proven and existing manufacturing capability. A123 would have had to build a plant, which would have been a huge risk for GM. This is the right decision, I’m sure, and is a major milestone on the road to the Volt. Way to go.


  17. 17
    Statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:36 pm)

    I know the contract would have been in ‘full disclosure’ mode with A123, what with the IPO regs and all, but hopefully we get all the details when the news is ‘officially released’ from GM about LG.

    The batteries are the sticking point to this whole thing. Here are a few question hopefully we gets answers to that will finally let us fill in some information on the Volt:

    How many cells can LG produce for 2010? 2011? Now they have a contract, how large will the max. capacity of the new factory be? Will the new factory be a sister plant in Michigan? Contract value vs order size…can we estimate pack value?

    Most importantly due to the slow ramp up nature of the Lithium battery business…What is the scope/quantity of the initial order from GM? What options have they written for ‘going forward’ production?

    I’m sure it will all come to light eventually, and we probably will learn more about the release date and production capacity in 5 minutes then we have been able to glean the last year and a half from the GM execs.

    /still, all in all, very good news…I’m pleased today


  18. 18
    Kim Woo-jung

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:42 pm)

    Since it is now confirmed that the Volt will be powered by SOUTH KOREA it is time for a name change that is more appropriate. Can you say:

    Daewoo Volt

    P.S. Chevy my @s!#


  19. 19
    Andrew

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:48 pm)

    A123’s batteries were much, much better & there non-use is why GM had to bypass the batteries and send voltage directly to the electric motor in their new jury-rigged design.

    Shame on GM!

    I’m still probably buying a Volt, though now I will closely inspect the design and manufacture to affirm that this is still truly the state of the art with the key being they Flex design. Is it truly still Flex? Or have they quietly scrapped that?

    GM has alot more competition now, as GM should have learned, Americans won’t simply pay extra for 2nd class just because it’s an American company. Hell, they couldn’t afford it even if they wanted to buy American.

    Also, the government was foolish beyond belief (surprise!) to pass into law as an add-on to that 700 billion bailout the $7000 tax credit for the Volt before GM has even priced the Volt on the open market!

    Do you see the problem with that?!

    GGGeeezzz….those in government are either 1st class dolts or brazen thieves (OK, they’re both)


  20. 20
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:52 pm)

    GM stock is now at $6.19 a share. And has been holding it’s own very well during these last few roller coaster drops in the market. At times being ‘up’ during the market’s slips of 4%-5%.

    As I stated in last weeks blog, We are currently about 10%-12% from the bedrock bottom of this market. This will be marked with an S&P of just under 800. S&P is now at 896.

    GM has publicly stated that they don’t want to merge with other auto manufacturers and have pleaded for stock buyers to hop on to avoid this draining and destabilizing event.

    _________________________________________

    GM stock will touch a price of $5.40 in these next few weeks.

    I propose that we at gm-volt.com each purchase 1000 shares at $5.38 ($5400). With a follow-up buy of 1000 shares at $4.58 ($4600) if an additional dip in price allows.

    Lyle can support this effort by placing a real time GM stock ticker at the top of the gm-volt.com page. Next to a count-down clock for the release date of November 2011.

    Products: Volt, Camaro, Malibu, Escalade hybrid, Cruze, Solstice, Plug in Vue, Corvette, Impala, Buick.

    Exposure: Europe, Canada, South America, Australia, China.

    _________________________________________

    If we really have 20,000 solid buyers here for the Volt this will mean a rush of $108,000,000 in working capital flowing to GM. With a potential of $92,000,000 more to follow.

    During the second week in July of this year the GM Centennial was announced with the Volt being the star. GM stock rose from $9 to over $14 in just a few days. I bought at $9.40 and sold at $12 during this pop.

    What do you think? 2000 shares @ $14 = $28,000

    =D~


  21. 21
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:57 pm)

    Statik #12

    “I had not heard that A123 was behind in anyway, I thought they were both ‘well ahead of the curve’…but you very well could be right Griz. I myself thought all along/still think that A123 was/is actually currently producing the superior product.”

    *** *** ***

    We won’t know anything for sure until we get the official word from GM. However, given Lutz’s comments months ago when he said “there was a little less risk with the one company” we can ascertain that a decision had to be made to move forward at that point in this compressed development schedule. From the very beginning Conti/A123 missed the delivery schedule of their first pack by months, because it became apparent that a switch had to be made in the format of the cells. This set the whole pack development back and by the time CPI had delivered almost a dozen packs, Contil struggled to get its second delivered. One of the two company’s packs also had coolant leaking problems although GM didn’t say which. I’m guessing it was the rushed company….Conti, just a guess I don’t know that for sure.

    Ultimately Conti/A123 may build the superior pack for Gen2,3 etc but for successive Gens to come out Gen1 has to be on the road in numbers with a functioning pack and a rigorous test schedule.


  22. 22
    Tagamet

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:58 pm)

    Little steps for little feet.

    Be well,
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS.


  23. 23
    Joe

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:58 pm)

    dylan Says: @4

    vote for mccain & palin

    *****************************************************************

    right on!!


  24. 24
    Dave B

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:03 pm)

    With a pack chosen, GM knows the likely price of this vehcile by now now. SO GM, what’s the damage?

    Also, why all the skepticism of LG/Chem? These packs have been tested to the moon and back. Ask Nasaman. I trust GM has selected them for numerous reasons.


  25. 25
    Chris Jackson

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:05 pm)

    A vote for McCain & Palin will surly hurt the future of alternative fuel/energy cars and technology. If you are a supporter of alternative car/energy, you should cast your vote for Obama.

    Looking forward to driving my Chevy Volt. American made!


  26. 26
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:10 pm)

    Dave B #23

    “Also, why all the skepticism of LG/Chem?”

    *** *** ***

    I don’t think there’s any problem with LG Chem as a company. What this boils down to is battery chemistry which could be the determining factor in longevity, and the fact is that A123′s chemistry is superior.


  27. 27
    nasaman

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:12 pm)

    12 Statik….. “A123 is great, but it is new and it is small, the GM order would have been a monster to A123….the same order to LG is great, but not earth shattering to them in the grand scheme.

    /I think GM is tired of propping up suppliers to keep their cars going down the line”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
    You’re absolutely right, Statik! LG/CPI have both the corporate size & the expertise (not to mention the financial muscle) to make them the best choice ….even if they hadn’t been the low bidder! I’m greatly relieved that A123 didn’t win!
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
    18 Kim Woo-jung….. “Since it is now confirmed that the Volt will be powered by SOUTH KOREA it is time for a name change that is more appropriate. Can you say: Daewoo Volt”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
    No disrespect intended, Kim ….but as the American who led the team that designed, built & launched the fleet of satellites that put South Korea into the space program (Koreasat), I’d advise you, as I have several of my brilliant Korean scientist/engineer friends, to swallow some of your pride & recognize (as our Japanese friends readily do) that a great deal of what your country has learned in the last 50 years has been with the help of Americans & American companies.


  28. 28
    Joe

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:14 pm)

    Assuming A123 does not currently have the best battery because of whatever problem, and what if a GM’s competitor grabs a contract with them and end’s up with a superior battery? That is something that could seriously hurt GM.

    GM does not like to put all their eggs in one basket so that why, I think, GM will end up using both.


  29. 29
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:21 pm)

    Joe #27

    They may very well use both. While A123 is a relatively small company, their partner Continental is not. Conti is the 4th largest tire maker, and 5th largest auto supplier in the world.


  30. 30
    BillR

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:27 pm)

    I believe the decision to use LG Chem is more commercial than technical.

    As others have mentioned, the ability of LG Chem to deliver in a timely manner, having manufacturing facilities already in place, and pricing may all play a role in the decision.

    However, if you listen to the interviews with the battery engineers at this link, they indicate that both competing battery packs have very similar performance.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/07/the-april-2008-chevy-volt-update-a-visit-to-the-battery-systems/


  31. 31
    Gordon

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:30 pm)

    #20 – - My plan exactly. However, after the GM-VOLT website was launched, I bought GM at $20.00 (50% off its high of $40 at that time) — then the implosion hit. After getting over that loss, I bought more at $10.00 thinking it just couldn’t get any lower. Now it’s around $5.00 – - – Today, the tv stock analysts are trash-talking GM even for a long term investment. I still have faith that when the VOLT hits the streets it will go back up. Now I’m thinking “buy LG Chem”. Maybe the battery maker will do better in the long haul. What is their ticker? Put that at the top of this website next to GM/Chrysler ;)


  32. 32
    Statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:31 pm)

    Tag and Nasaman, both in the same thread again. Must be a full moon or something.

    Glad to see you both!

    #20 Dave K
    I don’t even have a place to start…lol, stunning is all I have to say.

    (=


  33. 33
    Jim

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:39 pm)

    I’m with #4 also!!

    And I don’t care who makes the battery, I’m looking to lease my first Volt. I’ll purchase a second one after Generous Motors works the bugs out in a few years.


  34. 34
    mmcc

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:43 pm)

    Excellent. I was hoping it would be LG.


  35. 35
    Red HHR

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:47 pm)

    LG, they will be rolling out these batteries like they are LCD TV’s
    There will be Volts for everybody. Exponential production!

    Red HHR (Life’s Good)


  36. 36
    ziv

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:49 pm)

    I think Grizzly is right, GM would be wise to use both batteries, even if A123 is used in future versions of the Vue plug in, it will allow GM to build a relationship with a growing company that could be building the best batteries in the world in a few years. And building those batteries in the USA, as well.


  37. 37
    Mike

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:51 pm)

    Who are we kidding? This car is so far behind we’ll never see a production model. GM, no matter who they choose for the battery or any other part, will have this vehicle so over priced that no one will be able to afford it except oil company executives.
    We are dreaming if we think we will ever see this car as anything more then an exhibit at the annual auto show.


  38. 38
    BillR

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:53 pm)

  39. 39
    kent beuchert

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:58 pm)

    I’d say it probably was a combination of the promise of lower costs because of the LG’s simpler design and less costly components
    and the obvious manufacturing muscle the company possesses.
    I believe that LG is the world’s largest electronics/electrical manufacturer. They certainly didn’t waste any time developing their assembly plans for Detroit. I assume the performance of the two packs were very similar.


  40. 40
    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (7:59 pm)

    Statik says: A123 is great, but it is new and it is small, the GM order would have been a monster to A123

    True, but, they have a serious partner.

    GE is making its sixth equity investment in lithium-ion battery manufacturer A123Systems, putting $30 million into A123’s $102 million Series E financing. GE is the battery manufacturer’s largest single cash investor, with 9% ownership. The investments were made by GE Commercial Finance – Equity and GE Energy Financial Services, bringing GE’s combined total investment in A123Systems to $55 million.
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/ge-increases-in.html#more

    Tagamet. Twice in one day. Your timing is impeccable, this is the post we have been waiting, like forever, for.

    Be well my friend.
    LJGTVWOTR
    NO plug, NO sale.


  41. 41
    RB

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:00 pm)

    Tag — welcome back !


  42. 42
    D Lo

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:00 pm)

    # 20 Dave K,
    The point is a good one. Sadly, but realistically, big oil is a much better financial investment. note: financial–there are many other reasons to buy a stock, few are as relevant, though.

    Royal Dutch Shell is trading at a P/E of 4! and a yield of 7%. I’ve not heard of any speculation that big oil might go under. I just realized that Shell could easily afford to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford and do away with electric altogether. I’ll tell you what, you buy GM and prop up the automakers stock price and I’ll buy RDS and oppose any such acquisition via proxy votes. It’ll be a double threat to save the Volt.


  43. 43
    RB

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:03 pm)

    #9 Brett said “..now there is a contract to mass produce that battery”
    ===============

    As I read the post, there is not a contract yet, but there is certainly an intent to reach one, which is a good step forward. Negotiations of the kind mentioned can take a while, however, so there seems to be more than just signing the papers left to be done.


  44. 44
    Andrew

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:13 pm)

    Well, I bought 100 shares in August for $10 a share. I intend to buy up to 2500 shares with a minimum of 1000.

    …but I’m also going to do the same with Ford.

    …and will do likewise with other American companies that are both reasonably priced and making concerted efforts to make America energy independent.

    That means no oil or coal stocks for me.

    Coal is just to filthy. Look at how China has accelerated global warming in the last 20 years with all the burning of that filthy brown coal to the point that we’re fast approaching escape velocity.


  45. 45
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:16 pm)

    hi D Lo # 41,

    Stock news from today 10/22/08:

    Shares of Exxon Mobil Corp shed 9.7 percent to $64.57.

    Rival ConocoPhillips, which slashed its 2008 exploration and production outlook, fell 9.1 percent to $49.06.

    The S&P energy index slid 10.4 percent.

    U.S. front-month crude shed $5.26 to $66.92 a barrel.

    GM down just $.35 (5%) to $6.19 a share .

    “Sadly, but realistically”, GM lurks.

    =D~


  46. 46
    nasaman

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:17 pm)

    Another comment regarding automotive batteries in general….. As I’m sure others here have noticed, Exxon Mobile is saturation advertizing their Li-Ion battery separator. Indeed, the separator is a critically-important element in terms of both performance and reliability. What’s to keep Exxon Mobile from becoming a huge “malevolent supplier” to automotive battery makers like Chevron did?!?!

    I’ve always wanted to believe that both A123 & LG are using separators from a non-Big Oil supplier — does anyone know?

    PS to Tag: Welcome back! It looks like we both see the battery as a good subject for critique/comment!


  47. 47
    D Lo

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:25 pm)

    #44 Dave K
    Toche. I can’t figure out that french symbol thingy. Yeah, I actually got the memo tonight after buying RDS BEFORE it dropped 8% today. I bought GM months ago on Volt excitement, but as Statik pointed out elsewhere, it might not be a good idea to buy something you have a personal interest in. I hate oil, so it seemed like a good idea…

    As for batteries, I live in town next to Troy, MI and have no concept of LG chem. Continental has a big operation in nearby Auburn Hills. For those who are not familiar, ALL automotive manufacturers and subsidiaries, suppliers, content providers, etc have a presence in Southeast Michigan. So LG Chem being ‘Troy MI’ based (but South Korean) is no real advantage for distribution. Clearly GM seems to be favoring a concept where 100% of the Volt will be made in 100 miles. That shouldn’t be too hard.


  48. 48
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:37 pm)

    hi D Lo # 46,

    I must confess, I own two energy stocks. They are both American based and I feel one in particular is an excellent “Obama” play. It was down just 2.5% today with the rest of the market getting hammered. Will buy more on a 3% dip.

    Thanks for the spirited conversation. I will read to my son now and get some rest.

    No Plug = No Sale
    =D~


  49. 49
    Paul

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:41 pm)

    I use A123 cells in my car and they rock!

    Oh yes, I might add it’s a little R/C electric car.
    Not too practical but fun anyway…

    Since the US Press railroaded Ron Paul,
    I’m voting for Chuck Baldwin…
    Time to break up this two party mess…

    http://www.baldwin08.com


  50. 50
    JonP

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:43 pm)

    Great News! Even better when we get an official release from GM.

    Statik,
    2 contract annoucements in 1 day, I think GM heard you.

    Just bought another 100 shares of GM @ $6.23!


  51. 51
    Ray the unemployed auto-worker

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:44 pm)

    OBAMA/BIDEN ’08

    If you really want to see alternative energy cars on the road, you gotta support the future and let go of the BUSH,CHENEY/MCCAIN crowd.

    c’mon people, join me in the obvious best choice

    OBAMA/BIDEN ’08!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  52. 52
    Herm

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (8:57 pm)

    It is a shame, I was hoping for the long lasting A123 cells..maybe this is the reason GM is only using half the capacity of the batteries and why they are accounting for one battery replacement under warranty. Other companies are planning to use LIFE cells in cars, lets see how they do.

    I got suspicious with all the talk of battery cooling, something A123 cells seldom need.


  53. 53
    BRUCE

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:03 pm)

    I JUST PURCHASED 500 SHARES OF GM AT 6 AND CHANGE. I SURE HOPE I DON’T LOSE MY SHIRT. GO GM. BARACK IS “THE MAN” AND THE VOLT IS FOR ME.


  54. 54
    K2

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:05 pm)

    Funny how everyone thinks A123 is some sort of miracle battery. I’ve tested them side by side with others, and find them very lacking. Yes, they have the safety behind them, but the performance (and mainly energy storage) is a dog.

    Yeah yeah, I don’t need to hear how they’ve been chosen for Dewalt tools. The weren’t chosen for Makita (who’s kicking Dewalts’ butt in gaining market share BTW), Metabo, Milwaukee, Bosch, Skil, Ridgid, Ryobi, AEG, Panasonic, Dremel, the ‘other’ Ridgid (different kind of contractor tool), etc. They all use cells from other suppliers, that quite frankly out perform the Li-ion Dewalt tools in every tool test in battery-type performance (power and runtime); see all the back issues of Tools of the Trade magazine.

    Then you have the electric motorcycle companies, most of whom I know tested A123 and passed on them to use something better, Tesla who isn’t using them (and they aren’t idiots), etc etc etc.

    All you A123 fans out there need to stop reading the A123 hype, and do the comparative research! A123 is a marketing machine, while you don’t hear how Sony’s high power 18650 cell can match A123 for all practical purposes and has 20+% more Wh delivered (A123 does have a bit more high end power for short durations though). That’s why there are 10 Sony cells in the large Makita 18V battery, but it takes 12 A123 cells in the 18V Dewalt to match hole for hole the same voltage and performance (# holes drilled).

    So I was pretty much assuming that due to both performance per lb, and especially due to $/Wh, A123 wasn’t going to win. And I’m sure the big LG Chem company behind it was also a factor as others have pointed out. I will be curious if those were the reasons GM had, or if we’ll ever find out.


  55. 55
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:17 pm)

    #53

    “Then you have the electric motorcycle companies, most of whom I know tested A123 and passed on them to use something better, Tesla who isn’t using them (and they aren’t idiots), etc etc etc.”

    *** *** ***

    This is priceless!


  56. 56
    Keith Twombley

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:25 pm)

    So what you’re saying is…there was a battery LEAK?


  57. 57
    K2

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:27 pm)

    …and before I get flamed, don’t get me wrong, the A123 cells/technology are great in many ways. The overcharge safety alone is sweet, and you don’t get that elsewhere. But due to the lower energy (due to the lower potential of phosphate), the competitive technology can either add safety (and cycle life) by simply not charging up as much, as well as drop in a bunch more safety stuff and still be lighter.

    A123 is certainly not going to go away, and I wouldn’t want them to anyway. We need options to be out there, and there are several companies that will sacrifice the performance and pass on the extra cost for the gain of the extra safety, regardless of my arguments above. For instance, Segway scooters use Valence cells which are also phosphate based and have similar safety to A123. They COULD switch to NMC or something else, but they won’t because they feel it’s not worth sacrificing every bit of safety they can eek out even for degraded range and increased price. But they can do that, because it’s a niche/rich person’s item. It’s a Segway!

    GM… I don’t think they can make that trade off. Not saying they’re sacrificing safety or anything, but the cost of this vehicle is key, and the cost to get the range is key. They MUST maximize the Wh/$, or it’ll end up as an interesting curiosity dubbed the “Tesla-Lite.”


  58. 58
    Tagamet

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:35 pm)

    A lot more stock talk than before, but other than that, it’s Deja Vu all over again. (g). At this point, I’ll just be glad when the election is over and the Volt’s wheels hit the road.
    Thanks for the shout-outs.
    Be well (and maintain your wealth),
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS.


  59. 59
    Herm

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (9:57 pm)

    >>Funny how everyone thinks A123 is some sort of miracle battery. I’ve tested them side by side with others, and find them very lacking. Yes, they have the safety behind them, but the performance (and mainly energy storage) is a dog.<<<

    I dont know what kind of testing you did.. true the voltage is lower so they store less energy, but performance?, no other lithium cell can match it with safe 60c discharges and 10c charges, a lithium cell that can be charged in 15 minutes!, will not explode or catch fire even when punctured and can last for thousands of cycles without degradation.. and they run cool.

    Perhaps the extreme charge and discharge performance is not needed in large EV packs but the safety is nice.. fires in EVs will be bad news.


  60. 60
    Statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:03 pm)

    #57 Tag

    A lot more stock talk than before, but other than that, it’s Deja Vu all over again. (g). At this point, I’ll just be glad when the election is over and the Volt’s wheels hit the road.
    Thanks for the shout-outs.
    Be well (and maintain your wealth),
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS.
    ————————————————————
    I was just about to post on this…what is going on here? The I bought some GM stock today post? This is one crazy thread…in more ways than one.


  61. 61
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:04 pm)

    #57

    WB Tag!


  62. 62
    Nelson

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:08 pm)

    I wonder if both A123 and Compact Power battery packs weighed the same.

    NPNS!


  63. 63
    Statik

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:17 pm)

    Ok, I HAVE to do it…I thought for sure someone would say it so I wouldn’t have to….can’t believe no one has yet:
    —————————————————————
    /glass half empty on

    Hey, hard to believe it is June 2008 already! Can’t wait for the kids to be out of school and get ready for a long summer!

    Boy, that year to pick a battery supplier went by fast, eh? Glad everything is still ‘on track’ and ahead of schedule. What? Ew…almost November now you say? Noooo…I’m still pasty white, I was waiting for the contract to signify summer had started!

    http://gm-volt.com/2007/06/11/lithium-ion-battery-war/
    “Its a 12 round fight..one per month..with the winner being announced in June 08, or hopefully sooner if the knockout arrives.”
    —Guess this was one of those rare 17 month fights.

    /Hey, remember I did said some positive things up at the top of the thread, cut me some slack, hehe. I just felt a little accountability would be in order, especially after several months of ribbing about ‘where the heck is the bloody battery contract’ already. It is good news they are close to announcing a winner…albeit in a total failure in hitting a deadline kind of way.

    /just saying
    //glass half empty off


  64. 64
    stas peterson

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:27 pm)

    People… Please Grow Up!

    A123, a tiny battery design company that doesn’t even make any batteries, was never a realsitic contender in the running for the Volt contract, other then as a price and or technology backup.

    Thye have Zero production capacity. They contract it all out to a tolling company in China. So they don’t even understand the details of the A123 battery manufacture. As such they can’t be responsive to changes in demand (hopefully a ramp Up!).

    They are just too small to build a large automated factory here in the US, and wouldn’t know how to do it, or operate it, if they did.

    Nor could they reasonably assure GM that they could ensure “just-in-time” battery deliveries. That manufacturing technique is used by all the automakers to control costs. Failure to meet a delivery by only a few hours would force GM to halt the assembly line, and have thousands of workers just stand around.

    Their only real hope was to be a second source. Frankly, if I were GM, I would dual-source its batteries for a product as important as the Volt. Let the two vendors demonstrate who makes and delivers better; and then bias orders in that direction. In electronic manufacture, dual-sourcing is a common method but not so common in auto manufacture.


  65. 65
    JBFALASKA

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:32 pm)

    Well, I’m not encouraging anyone to vote in any particular way, but Obama/Biden 08 is my choice. Why? My former affliation, probably tied to my military career, was Republican. No thanks. What it cost to go to Iraq could’ve bought everyone in the country a Volt and avoided the oil addiction that causes us to go there. I spent decades, now with many young men and women right behind me doing the sam, protecting the oil highway. That’s why I’m here on the VOLT site.

    Obama, take us home, find alternatives to terrorist oil. The Oil man sold us out.


  66. 66
    Jeffhre

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:44 pm)

    # 58 Herm

    Energy density is 99% of the game in making a reasonably priced/performing passenger EV. If thermal events can be stopped, more energy = GO, financially and economically.

    # 62 Statik

    Better get out some Coppertone and your jet-skis ——– the the date the winner will be announced, hasn’t been announced yet!


  67. 67
    Anon

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:48 pm)

    There is one large reason GM did not choose the Conti/A123 pack that has not been mentioned. GM likes A123, GM does NOT like Continental. A123 provides great cells and chemistry, they have great potential. Continental, was unable to optimize this in a timely manner. When GM chose to pair Conti with A123 they made a mistake. GM would be wise to see what Compact Power can do with A123 cells.

    GM will keep close to A123, they love the chemistry and its potential. They will continue working with them for other projects for sure (FLEX).

    I am saddened that GM chose the cheap, “safe” route. But I look forward to the Volt and to whatever other cars start hitting the roads with Li-Ion packs (surely A123!)


  68. 68
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (10:57 pm)

    Anon #66

    The article does mention that it’s just for the 1st Gen. Who knows Gen2 may offer the Conti/A123 pack.


  69. 69
    Anon

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:00 pm)

    It is very possible, if not highly likely. GM may be trying to stick to their deadlines and using what they have at hand. Rigging something together to keep riding the hype wave.

    I have almost 100% certainty GM will be using A123 cells in some form in the future.


  70. 70
    Texas

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:00 pm)

    #5 Brad G.

    “Google “peak oil” to find out more.”

    That’s like going to the Oil Drum and telling them to do a search on peak oil. Yeah, just bit out-of-the-loop. ;) Welcome to GM-Volt.com!


  71. 71
    Bif Naked

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:23 pm)

    #55 Keith Twombley

    That was a good one. I got a real charge out of that.


  72. 72
    fairtaxsupporter

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:25 pm)

    Obama will hurt the ecomomy.

    Vote for McCain and Palin.


  73. 73
    Steven P. Jobs

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:27 pm)

    WTF, the same company that makes my Washer/Dryer is making the major component in the Volt ???

    I hope the Run and Charge cycles in that Volt appliance works as good as my W/D.

    LG Volt


  74. 74
    Jethro Bodine

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:43 pm)

    Granny says that a vote fer that McCain fella is a vote against change. Granny is having a hard time these days, she and her teeth don’t sleep together no more.


  75. 75
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:47 pm)

    #12 Statik Says: “I think GM chose LG…and chose them along time ago (at least in their heads), because it doesn’t have to worry about all the basic solvency/access to cash issues with LG…and just general paranoia if A123 could handle the order. ”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Yes, I agree. In other words, big companies like to work with big companies. LG is a big South Korean company.

    A123 is manufactured in China using leased space in existing battery manufacturing plants. Given that:
    1) A123 is a small company
    2) South Korea’s economy is much more open than China
    3) LG owns their own manufacturing plants
    GM probably felt there was too much business risk to go with A123.


  76. 76
    Nancy

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:47 pm)

    John McCain was trying to straighten out the wrinkles in his socks only to be told by the Secret Service man that he wasn’t wearing any. LOL


  77. 77
    revolt

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:54 pm)

    The best battery today is declared to be the LG.
    Good, let’s go ahead to the next step. I believe the GM guys did their homework, and all I’ve read here confirms that.

    Now that we are past square 1!

    I want to know more about the motor and controller.


  78. 78
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:58 pm)

    #19 Andrew Says: “A123’s batteries were much, much better & there non-use is why GM had to bypass the batteries and send voltage directly to the electric motor in their new jury-rigged design.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    It doesn’t matter if A123′s batteries are better, LG is a big company and A123 is not. Big companies like to work with big companies.

    By the way, bypassing the battery:
    1) is more efficient
    2) produces much less wear and tear on the battery
    3) is something GM explained at least 15 months ago
    4) makes the most sense regardless of the battery manufacturer

    Note that the battery is still in the circuit for acceleration and uphill driving, but most of the power is bypassed around the battery on the common DC bus. This is a basic concept of the series hybrid (a.k.a. E-REV) design.


  79. 79
    microbatman

     

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    Oct 22nd, 2008 (11:58 pm)

    Anyone tested an LG beside GM?


  80. 80
    Leatherneck

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:09 am)

    I thought this was gm-volt blog, not a GOP-DEM?


  81. 81
    Tomo

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:10 am)

    As for the batteries, I run the (new) DeWALT’s (sic) and they seem to work just fine. If the car works as well, and I can afford it, I’ll be very satisfied. Given all that GM is up against right now, I’d say what Lutz has been able to accomplish is historic and requires accolades. Perfect is very expensive, and certainly way above my pay grade either to do or to afford.

    As to the comments about supporting GM by buying their stock, this I am far less sure about than the batteries. Let’s see now…. If I buy a used Malibu through the classifieds, does GM even know it? I mean (other than parts and such) I might as well buy a used Ford so far as GM is concerned, right?.

    Doesn’t the same go for buying their stock “used”, let’s say from a broker? So far as I know, when I buy previously-issued stock GM doesn’t get one dime of my money. And as for my little purchase influencing the price of all their outstanding stock? Not at all, I am quite sure. So, if I really wanted to support GM right now, and I do, wouldn’t it make more sense to use my money to buy their products (from them) rather than buying their (used) stock from/through third parties? Or is this stock talk all about trying to make a buck so as to afford a Volt? If not, someone doesn’t understand finance. Could be me. Seriously, if so, help me out here. Thank You!


  82. [...] just received a message from Lyle over at GM-Volt saying that GM has decided who will be supplying the Volt’s battery (LG Chem, if you’re curious.) And what do I see, but an ad for the "Volt"… [...]


  83. 83
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:29 am)

    I have my 1050 shares and hope to sell them at a price to be able to buy a Volt New or pay off my stupid debt .

    God Bless
    Edwin Mang Jr.


  84. 84
    Richard

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:47 am)

    “They may very well use both. While A123 is a relatively small company, their partner Continental is not. Conti is the 4th largest tire maker, and 5th largest auto supplier in the world.”

    It may be true that A123 has a better product, but the lead time required to get a factory built and a production line up and running with the necessary economies of scale may not have been within GM’s production time frame. I suspect LG has that. GM needs to get the show on the road… the sooner the better because the Asian manufacturers are not going to let GM eat their lunch.

    A new generation of the Prius…possibly plug-in, is on the horizon. Honda is introducing a hybrid version of the (originally a fuel cell concept vehicle) FCX Clarity at only $19,200 and a revamped version, also costing around $20 grand, of the Insight which looks nothing like the that quirky little 2 seater they once sold.

    With prices like that, someone please tell me: How is GM going to make a $35-$40,000 Volt an upscale ‘value added’ attractive buy?


  85. 85
    K MAN

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:11 am)

    Good DD #37 Bill R,

    That shows where GM is heading in the future,imo.GM has stated they want to create a future battery “Dynasty”.Looks as though A123 is in their plans.


  86. 86
    GXT

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:25 am)

    So A123 never even made it into a mule. That means GM really only had one supplier to pick from. What are the odds it is a “good” battery and not “the only” battery?


  87. 87
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:28 am)

    #79 Leatherneck Says: “I thought this was gm-volt blog, not a GOP-DEM?”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Yes, I agree. I’ve only mentioned candidates by name when it had something to do with the Volt, like Volt tax credits, or their policy on E85.


  88. 88
    GXT

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:31 am)

    83 Richard:

    “Honda is introducing a hybrid version of the (originally a fuel cell concept vehicle) FCX Clarity at only $19,200 and a revamped version, also costing around $20 grand, of the Insight which looks nothing like the that quirky little 2 seater they once sold.”

    I think you have some facts crossed. The Insight is the hybrid version of the FCX Clarity (although it really doesn’t look much like it). The other hybrid Honda has been talking about is the CRZ.

    But you are right, the Volt is not going to have a big financial impact for GM… except perhaps to speed the bankruptcy or to fool the socialist feds. Anyone buying stock based on the Volt deserves to lose it all.


  89. 89
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:33 am)

    #78 microbatman Says: “Anyone tested an LG beside GM?”
    ————————————————————————————-
    I think LG tweaked the chemistry of the Volt cells as per GM’s requirements, so there would be no way to test the actual cell type GM will be using. The same was true for A123.


  90. 90
    Bob

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:42 am)

    McCain/Palin/Phillies 2008

    A team we can believe in!


  91. 91
    sia nara

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (2:23 am)

    A Vote for either US candidate will elect the character of “McBama” – a puppet of the shadow clan of ancient mariners that rhyme the planet. No president makes their own decisions – decisions are teleprompted in for public parroting.


  92. 92
    reelist

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (2:30 am)

    The REAL deal is A123 will sever their ties to China manufacturing and set up a brand new 50k sq ft automated battery plant in the south. This will second source GM Volt batteries and first source batteries for a new “division” of GM – as yet unnamed.


  93. 93
    Richard

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:01 am)

    GXT.. I don’t share your hope nor expectation of bankruptcy for GM. They are a fine company, but yes they are hemorrhaging money like a stuck pig. Henry Fords philosophy making cars cheap enough for the masses to buy made him a lot of money. Not everyone can afford to pay for cutting edge technology, and that’s what I fear the Volt has become.

    The rice burners are doing it different. Taking baby steps and not burning any bridges behind them, they are slowly but carefully ‘converting’ existing but rapidly changing technology… slowly changing from all ICE to all electric…. it could well be a 10 or even15 year transition but it will happen. GM on the other hand is charging ahead doing everything but re-inventing the wheel..seemingly overnight. Pretty gutsy and I wish them well, but lets make this new technology affordable to the masses..as Henry Ford once did with the old Models A and T.

    Henry Ford also once said:

    “I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one-and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God’s great open spaces.”

    Hopefully this mantra hasn’t been lost on GM or I would fear for their future.


  94. 94
    Bob

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:14 am)

    And lets not forget that Henry Ford was Hitlers idol!
    What’s that tell ya? I have no idea!


  95. 95
    The Grump

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:31 am)

    Vote for Obama ?

    Voting for change is NOT always the best idea, as the people of Germany could tell you. Hitler brought about tremendous change, but not necessary changes that people wanted. The German people were in a worse economic slump than we are at the time.

    For example – Raising corporate taxes.

    Who doesn’t want to increase taxes on Exxon? Nice idea, but it won’t work. Exxon (and every other company) will simply pass the tax increases on to the customers (that’s us). How will Obama prevent this from happening ? Answer that, Obama !

    Hint – Obama can’t answer that one – this is precisely what he wants to happen. Make the people poor, miserable, and totally dependent on the government. What a nice guy !


  96. 96
    Richard

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:42 am)

    Well Bob… Hitler, the evil man that he was; curiously also had a car designed for the masses… the Kraut Kan (as it was sometimes derisively referred to at the time) was also known as the VW…

    I own one. 855km on 47litres (about 12us gal)

    He also strongly promoted if not invented the autobahn (“Reichsautobahn” or Freeways of the Reich) a couple of ideas of Hitler’s I’m not exactly complaining about. There weren’t many silver linings to that scumbags life but those were two of em.


  97. 97
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:32 am)

    The Grump #94

    IMHO, there is another way.

    Multinational corporations (like EXXON and many others) “simply” evade taxation by using an accounting mechanism known as “transfert pricing”.

    That means using fictitious prices in trade relations with abroad subsidiaries. This is perfectly legal (how do you control if it is the market price of a semi-finished product travelling from one country to another for transformation ? Often there is not even a market price).
    Using this technique, a multinational corporation may locate its profits in the most fiscally advantageous country, … among other possibilities.

    Googlize “transfer prices” for more informations.

    NPNS
    JC


  98. 98
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:35 am)

    Richard #92

    Thanks for the quote from H. Ford.

    NPNS JC


  99. 99
    Howard Buckalew

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:02 am)

    And does this mean that the battery will be produced from parts produced Korea? With all of the political hype of the current Presidential campaign that the “new” green cars will be built in and with US technology. If the 123 battery is superior, and is preforming flawlessly, why is GM going with a Korea supplier? Could it be costs, or just a stratagy to make the volt a global car for the masses @ $40,000.00???? Just asking.


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    Jeff

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:19 am)

    I saw an interview with the chief. They questioned him about the under 30k price tag and now he says maybe under 40k. Who has that kind of money for an unproven car. It will be over 40k when all is said and done, you watch. I have faith in the GM worker, not management. Toyota has the IQ coming at 80 mpg and estimate of 12k price tag. I’ll wait for one of those. GM has missed the boat.


  101. 101
    butters

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:22 am)

    fairtaxsupporter #71 says:

    “Obama will hurt the ecomomy.”

    LOL! Like Bush didn’t hurt the economy!

    Face it, we’ve had quite a run of presidents of both parties who hurt the economy, usually by conflating deregulation with “freedom” or “modernization”. Better not impose any restraint on bipolar market psychosis. Might hurt the economy.

    It’s funny… After 9/11, the political landscape essentially rebooted and a completely new conventional wisdom emerged. Maybe the financial meltdown hasn’t sunk in yet, but it’s baffling that anybody is attempting to apply pre-Lehman conventional wisdom to the current economic situation.

    For crying out loud, McCain could have picked any number of leading conservative minds to be his senior economic advisor, and he picked Phil Gramm! Talk about hurting the economy!


  102. 102
    Spuds

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:19 am)

    1.) vote for MAC

    2.) Everyone who sells appliances KNOWS how cheap the LG brand is.

    3.) if the volt is 30K or above – color me gone.


  103. 103
    Brad Gould

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:21 am)

    I have to admit a bit of disappointment that the storage technology is simply batteries and not an ultracap/battery hybrid config. Such an approach would be the best of both worlds; giving the rapid charge/discharge capabilities of the ultracaps (perfect for inertial braking and acceleration regimes), with the deep storage capacities of the batteries. Maybe Gen 2 or 3 will incorporate ultracaps like the Nissan light truck hybrids.

    P.S. While the election is important to GM’s future as it is to all our futures, I would ask that the Obama vs. McCain thread go somewhere else. Thanks.


  104. 104
    MarkinWI

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:26 am)

    #71 You really want to go here? OK. 2/3 of all American economic activity is driven by consumer spending. People who make less spend more. Getting spending up is essential to get us out of this economic crisis. If people are not buying company profits will continue to lag, and more people will be laid off.

    The middle class is under enormous economic pressure. Gas prices, home heating oil prices, natural gas prices, have all at least doubled in the last 8 years. In WI we have lost 24,000 jobs this year alone, and most of those were in the manufacturing sector. Demand is going to drop through the floor as multiplier effects spread out. We need to stimulate demand and find ways to create jobs.

    We’ve sent out the “economic stimulus checks.” Call them “tax rebates,” or whatever you want to. It is the solution acceptable to Conservatives. The problem is that they don’t work for more than a month becuase they are not “permanent,” and so are unlikely to change behavior. They have also been paid for with more debt. Since 1981 the top marginal tax rate has been cut in half. The Bush Tax Cuts (which McCain used to oppose) have been paid for by deficit spending, and have essentially done nothing for anyone outside the top 2%. I’m in the top 2% but have seen little benefit, becuase the lion’s share went to the top 1/2 of 1%.

    Obama’s plan to raise taxes on the top 2%: (a) restores the status quo ante; (b) will lower taxes on the bottom 98% and so it will stimulate demand; and (c) will not esclate our debt even further. It also will not put top marginal tax rates anywhere near as high as they were in 1980, let alone 1950, so spare me the “Socialist” b.s.

    The economy was in good shape under Clinton (and the Republican Congress) because people had jobs, were buying, and the deficit was under control. 2001-2006 changed those dynamics. We mortgaged our future to give tax cuts to those who did not need it, and it has done nothing to help the economy. 2007-2008 got nothing done becasue Congress and the President were on completely different pages. I’m hoping that a President Obama and a largely Democratic Congress will get demand going again by undoing the Bush tax cuts. I’m hoping that they will get programs in place to create jobs. I’m hoping a minority Republican group will be pragmatic, and work with blue-dog Democrats to limit deficit spending where possible in the first four years, and then we can get back to surplus budgets in the second four years. Of course, it may also be too late, and we may slide into a second Great Depression.

    God Bless America.


  105. 105
    JamesinWI

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:45 am)

    Great, another score for Korea – GO KOREA! GO CHINA! GO MEXICO!
    Screw the workers in Janesville, Screw the workers in Texas -buy outsourced, buy offshore – buy everything but American!
    All just to save you cheap bastards a couple dollars – just keep up the whining, the crying about your pocketbook, and pretty soon the entire Volt will be “hecho en mexico y korea” – Hey, just like your next job!


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    pt109

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:50 am)

    I still want to know why everyone is so thrilled about a 40 mile range when the EV1 (from more than 10 years ago) had a range of 75-150 MILES on a Single CHARGE.

    GM and other car companies are sacrificing national security (dependency on foriegn oil) for corp-pirate greed. There should be a re-volt against the volt until they deliver what they delievered with the EV1.

    I for one will not support a company that had this (actually it was superior to the volt) technology 10+ years ago and brings this lame crap to market.


  107. 107
    jabroni

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:08 am)

    Another bone headed move. GM is trying desperately to sabotage this vehicle. They obviously do not want the VOLT to succeed.

    Consider:

    Using EV1 technology AND EV1 batteries, this car could have been in production already. But we are supposed to wait another two years? Why? All the technology they needed was completed 9 years ago! They already built a series hybrid EV1….please.


  108. 108
    Hondo

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:11 am)

    Hi am disappointed in the choice of LG as battery supplier. I would really like to buy a car with the major components sourced in the US. I guess I am done with the Volt, please take me off the mailing list and waiting list. Too bad for GM, no wonder they are close to closing their doors forever.


  109. 109
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:18 am)

    The main reason that LG Chem got this battery contract is because of the battery chemistry. It’s all about the performance characteristics … Power, Energy, Safety, Life, and Cost.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/uc-davis-report.html

    Apparently, the manganese spinel chemistry by LG Chem met the requirements that GM had for the battery better than A123′s. It looks like GM is confident that LGChem’s battery will work problem free for 10 years or 150,000 miles … which is what the battery warranty would be. I’m sure the fact that LG Chem is a bigger company with more capital available for manufacturing it had a lot to do with it too.

    The main thing was the performance of the battery though. I doubt it had anything to do with what country the battery technology was developed in. The fact is, from what I’ve been reading, the Asians have been doing the R&D on batteries longer than the rest of the world. It shouldn’t be surprising that they found just the right chemistry before everyone else.

    The thing about batteries though is they are always getting a little better every year. I hear there’s over 200+ different battery chemistries out there. For future EREVs like the Volt and other electrified cars, I’m sure GM is going to pick the best overall chemistry based on Power, Energy, Safety, Life, and Cost, etc. Isn’t that what us customers want? The best battery available for the money is what I want I know that.

    The battery industry is probably going to be gigantic in 10 years with plenty of competition. That’s good for us customers. If American based A123 comes up with a superior battery, I’m sure GM or some other car company will put it in their cars.


  110. 110
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:25 am)

    Ok, this thread certainly gets my vote for ‘kookiest.’ I mean, we got political bantering, nationalistic face offs….and a checklist of Hitler’s good points? Not that we don’t need to keep things lively around here.

    Back to top, sort of. I think in the long run A123, will be just as important in the ‘EV car battery manufacturer’ category as LG, possibly more.

    They certainly seem to have alot of people backing their plays, most recently GE who, invested for (by my count) the SIXTH time in A123. GE is a pretty good backer to have, lol. This time it was for 30 million in A123′s Series E 102 million dollar financing package.

    As a matter of fact GE owns a little over 9% of the company already and seeing how GE cares about this business significantly ie) they have their own ‘Battery Technology Symposium,’ you have to believe it is a good fit.

    I think we will see A123 pick up more than a few contracts along the way…I’m thinking Chrysler’s ENVI program is almost a sure thing for one. GE has a very tight relationship with Chrsyler on that project, I’m thinking (and a total WAG) this latest investment/financing round may have something to do with ramping for Chrysler.

    Official quote from the deal:
    “When GE Energy Financial Services invests in new venture companies, we offer much more than capital,” said Kevin Skillern, Managing Director and leader of venture capital at GE Energy Financial Services. “Companies that partner with GE Energy Financial Services not only receive the resources of a top-quality venture capital company, they benefit from all the strengths of GE.”


  111. 111
    Unemployed inMichigan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:31 am)

    Maybe they’ll manufacture them in China?


  112. 112
    John C. Briggs

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:45 am)

    OFF TOPIC

    The Chevy Volt gets a black-eye on PBS’s Frontline

    On a recent edition of Frontline, they show the Chevy Volt as being rather hopeless and incompetent. The Volt Concept Vehicle fails to make it up a small hill for a photo-shoot. No context is given to this footage and no mention is make to mule vehicles with the full drive train (the concept doesn’t have the real E-REV drive train.)

    To see the video

    1) to go http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/heat/view/7.html

    2) Go to Chapter 7, hopefully the link will take you to that chapter

    3) move to time marker 6:10, if you wait for the cache to fill, you can advance to that time


  113. 113
    Mike

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:54 am)

    Any word of any possible Solar charging system for the battery? My car sits outside in a big parking lot for 10+ hours a day. Since I can’t do both legs of my 30 mile commute on one charge, it’d be great to get at least a little charge while it’s sitting around.


  114. 114
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:54 am)

    I hope that this will teach the execs at A123 not to wait until the last possible due date to deliver their product to the customer. I believe that left a bad taste in all the decision maker’s mouths at GM, so A123 was doomed from the start. NO ONE is irreplacible.

    A123 can continue making inroads by supplying to Hymotion for the Prius conversions, and for Chrysler’s vehicles. It is also my understanding that A123 is pursuing subsequent opportunities for some of GM’s other new product offerings. I hope this lesson sticks.


  115. 115
    Tagamet

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:57 am)

    Statik@109
    I agree about the “kookiest” thread assessment, but the nice part of Kookiest is that it’s a moving target (and always seems to be moving upward).
    Thanks again all, but as my father used to say “Now I need to be off, like a dirty shirt”.
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS.


  116. 116
    kdawg

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:01 am)

    GM will not have just 1 supplier, trust me. Its actually written into their SOP, there will be no single-source for any purchased items. I think GM got A123 on early for price bidding wars, as they always do. When the bids come in they take the lower of them, slash 20% off, and name that as their target price. This only works if you have multiple bidders/suppliers.

    #104 James in WI
    Its a small world man, get used to it. I’m sure you have many many foreign products in your place now. I’ve worked in Mexico and Korea, its not that bad. Better than some parts of Detroit thats for sure.

    The McBama talk is driving me nuts too. Its like a broken record. You guys have nothing new to say so shut it. Thank God only 12 more days to go.


  117. 117
    mitch

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:04 am)

    Everyone…

    First.

    If you want to talk politics start one in the forums section..there is a catagory for politics.

    Second.

    Quit yer b**chin about where the battery is made, One is Korea, the other is Chine…Neither is US

    Third.

    The EV1 is dead..get over it..you whine about it and it was a $100k car..but dag nab it, the Volt better be around 30k..hun? what? and the mini lease at 850 made people freak..anybody else see this…can you say “inconsistancy?” I knew you could.

    Fourth..

    GM bashers.some constructive critiquers not included(like Statik, who at least can back it up with links (sorry to pick you out, but you are both negative and positive..(small s and big S..bi polar?lol))), but the GM is trash, never gonna fly, GM is a lost cause crowd….whatever..not worth the time…just please ..go away…if I want to hear whinny babies..I’ll go home..I have kids…

    We now have a motor, coolant pump, body design, battery pack, production facility (now that the tax credits were approved)..looks like nuts bolt and the generator..

    The Volt is CLOSER than you think..objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear…


  118. 118
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:06 am)

    #111 John C. Briggs Says:

    The Chevy Volt gets a black-eye on PBS’s Frontline

    On a recent edition of Frontline, they show the Chevy Volt as being rather hopeless and incompetent. The Volt Concept Vehicle fails to make it up a small hill for a photo-shoot. No context is given to this footage and no mention is make to mule vehicles with the full drive train (the concept doesn’t have the real E-REV drive train.)
    —————————————–

    The concept was just a shell, so it doesn’t surprise me it was not road worth…although GM probably should have done ‘just a little bit more,’ lol.

    As a matter of fact the ‘production Volt’ is just a shell too…I consider that to be more of a blackeye than this footage. We were promised many, many times, to be alot further along than we currently find ourselves now. ( I think we all remember the ‘working prototype in 2007 fiasco’)

    /that is what is troubling…at least to me


  119. 119
    Pat

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:11 am)

    I think the choice was made based not on technical requirements, because both companies batteries probably performed well, but on organizational and financial issues. It is important to GM that the company chosen, be able to ramp up production (problem free production) to match GM production output. The risk involved with A123/Conti was in all probability to high for Gm. The ability to produce large quantities of batteries efficiently will reduce overall cost of the batteries to GM and A123/Conti could not do that due to large start up costs, because of the size of their present operations. In the future I would expect that A123/Conti will scale up theire operations to a point that it will be advisable for GM to add in a second battery line in order to have a second back up battery line. In order to have this the Volt production will have to be very high to keep the prices down with a second battery line. I do believe that they have planed well into the future on this, it is the only way to insure successl.

    Pat


  120. 120
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:16 am)

    If you are in high school and you like science and math, you should HIGHLY consider electrical engineering and battery science. Battery engineers are in very short supply right now. That means you could make very good money right after getting your college diploma. America is going to need 1,000s of them in the next 10 years to get electric car/battery R&D and manufacturing going … right here in America.

    Read this: http://www.mlive.com/businessreview/annarbor/index.ssf/2008/10/nathan_bomeyvirtually_every_ma.html

    “Now, battery engineers are in short supply, and U-M’s new energy systems engineering major is among the hottest programs at the university. That’s a positive sign.”

    We need America’s best and brightest to study math and science instead of going to Wall Street or being a lawyer or whatever. Hopefully, America’s engineers will be the ones paid the big bucks in the next 10 years. If you are good at art/design and that kind of thing, god knows America’s car companies need to get their hands on the best exterior/interior car designers possible. I think when an exterior design gets the rave reviews and sells well, the design team that made it ought to make some bigtime bonuses like the Wall Street people do. Same thing for the engineers working on the drivetrain, etc.

    ALL the people that work for car companies do well when smash hit cars are coming off the production line. Excellent exterior/interior design along with reliable, high quality engineering under the hood is what will make American car companies great again.


  121. 121
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:18 am)

    #112 Mike Says: “Any word of any possible Solar charging system for the battery? My car sits outside in a big parking lot for 10+ hours a day. Since I can’t do both legs of my 30 mile commute on one charge, it’d be great to get at least a little charge while it’s sitting around.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    GM is planing a Volt solar car roof option, but this won’t charge the battery. The solar car roof will power a system that keeps a parked car cool in the summer.

    Note that solar cell effectiveness is very much tied to the angle of the sunlight. Home roofs with 30° South facing roof slopes work best. A car roof without any specific angle towards the sun will be much less effective.

    Also note that the usable portion of daylight is much less than you would suspect, usually around 4 hours a day, but this varies by location. Here’s a map:
    http://www.affordable-solar.com/gt-estimator.htm

    Solar cells are expensive and take a lot of energy to manufacture. A car roof is a poor use of solar cells. Solar panels make sense on home and business roofs, not car roofs.


  122. 122
    John C. Briggs

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:30 am)

    Mitch,
    As a currently unemployed engineer who is applying for a job at A123 Systems right now, I assure you that it matters which company wins the contract and I assure you that A123 Systems is an American Company employing a lot of Americans, for the moment anyway.
    It definitely matters to me, my wife, and my two children.
    Thanks
    John C. Briggs


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    Dave G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:30 am)

    #116 mitch,

    Well said.

    The only issue I have with GM is their reliability:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/tt.jpg

    That being said, I think an American company like GM is much more likely to take a chance and successfully “pave the way” with a new technology like E-REV.


  124. 124
    Tom

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:33 am)

    I am let down also, I thought that there was a promise to use American made batteries in Detroit or atleast an American company, the last thing we need to do is start buy more over seas product and putting more Americans out of work. What is wrong with our country.
    I wonder why there was 81,000 homes for closed in September. I guess I will see everyone on the streets.


  125. 125
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:41 am)

    #123 Tom

    I wonder why there was 81,000 homes for closed in September. I guess I will see everyone on the streets.
    ———————————————————-
    Thats a topical factoid Tom. Hot off the press overnight…I was surprised to see it referenced. Are you a ‘market junkie’ like myself?

    Actually that 81,000 and foreclosure filings are actually all well understated, we had all those new state laws designed to slow the process come into play last month. August was showing a definite spike increase in foreclosure filings/closures, which seems muted by this month’s numbers…until you consider the reason.

    (Never good a good sign when foreclosure filings are up over 70% is it? Sigh.)

    Link in case anyone wants a downer:
    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081023/foreclosure_rates.html


  126. 126
    Claudio Peretti

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:48 am)

    how much will the new battery pack cost?


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    randy

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:55 am)

    WHy doesn,t GM want more than one supplier, they may need quick back-up supply if volts sell like crazy or if some glitch develops in their LG battery.


  128. 128
    Joe Wright

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:57 am)

    Est-ce que la batterie LG est recyclable?

    Si GM veut produire une voiture écologique, aucune pièce ne doit être jetée.


  129. 129
    Randoman

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:04 am)

    I am very concerned about the Volt. If the price isn’t right, bye-bye GM. If I can’t recover the cost difference between buying a Volt and a VW TDI in 3 yrs, I will be buying a VW TDI or equivalent. An “ICE” gas only vehicle is no longer an option. Screw OPEC and Venezuela!


  130. 130
    Brad G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:12 am)

    116 mitch says: Everyone…

    First.

    If you want to talk politics start one in the forums section..there is a catagory for politics.

    (Agree 100%)

    Second.

    Quit yer b**chin about where the battery is made, One is Korea, the other is Chine…Neither is US.

    (True, but LG is in control of their battery producion where A123 is not by subcontracting to China and remember GM a few months back had an A123 battery recall because everything made in China is crap.)

    Third.

    The EV1 is dead..get over it..you whine about it and it was a $100k car..but dag nab it, the Volt better be around 30k..hun? what? and the mini lease at 850 made people freak..anybody else see this…can you say “inconsistancy?” I knew you could.

    (Totally agree, EV1 was a great stepping stone to the Volt and the Mini needs a “special” charger installed at home to charge it, so even though it can reportedly go 150 miles you still are limited because you can’t just plug in anywhere.)

    Fourth..

    GM bashers.some constructive critiquers not included(like Statik, who at least can back it up with links (sorry to pick you out, but you are both negative and positive..(small s and big S..bi polar?lol))), but the GM is trash, never gonna fly, GM is a lost cause crowd….whatever..not worth the time…just please ..go away…if I want to hear whinny babies..I’ll go home..I have kids…

    (Kids are great until they turn into teenagers… (Statik is stuck at 18) Seriously GM, soon to be GM/Crysler is too big for the US govenment to let fail. And they won’t let the US car makers fail when they are so close to rollout of fuel efficent cars.)

    We now have a motor, coolant pump, body design, battery pack, production facility (now that the tax credits were approved)..looks like nuts bolt and the generator..

    The Volt is CLOSER than you think..objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear…

    (I believe when GM sees the sucess of the Volt they will start converting all their cars to this platform.)


  131. 131
    Tim

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:12 am)

    LitroEnergy Power Cells Produce Continuous Output

    By combining a non-stop luminescing technology that has a 20-year duration (12-year half-life), with thin film photovoltaics in a layered arrangement, MPK Co. has devised a portable, continuous generator that could change the planet.

    The combining these two technologies – the thin-film solar and the LitroSpheres™ – would entail very thin, repeated layers of each so that a large number of stacked sets would comprise a significant power density. They call these versatile hybrid species, Litroenergy Power Cells, which can be scaled from micro applications to large utilities.

    The Litroenergy technology is based on a combination of an advanced phosphorus and tritium, hence the 12-year half-life.

    http://pesn.com/2008/10/22/9501495_Litroenergy_Power_Cells/


  132. 132
    ThombDbhomb

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:14 am)

    Stepping back for some perspective, I see that a major automaker has picked a supplier for an automotive Li-ion battery. The electrification of the auto has gotten “realer.” The “loser” (A123)shouldn’t worry too much, I suspect others will court them – the ball is rolling.

    Go E-REV! Go BEV! Go green energy!


  133. 133
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:18 am)

    #127 Joe Wright

    Est-ce que la batterie LG est recyclable?

    Si GM veut produire une voiture écologique, aucune pièce ne doit être jetée.
    ———————————————————-
    I don’t think you can produce a car that is 100% recyclable…certainly not at a profit. Lithium batteries are recyclable, and mandates by law, but little of that are recoverable (maybe because of the high internal resistance caused by oxidation…I don’t know, I don’t profess to be a battery expert).

    /en anglais svp


  134. 134
    Brad G

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:19 am)

    131 ThombDbhomb

    Chrysler is talking to them about their electric cars.


  135. 135
    Reese

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:22 am)

    Obama/Biden will continue to make this and other other non-gasoline technology rapidly flourish. If you have any real interest in a car like a Volt, you would be a Fool to vote for McCain.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:25 am)

    K MAN #84

    “That shows where GM is heading in the future,imo.GM has stated they want to create a future battery “Dynasty”.Looks as though A123 is in their plans.”

    *** *** ***

    There is definitely something in the works. Not only does A123′s site mention that they’re working with GM on battery chemistry, GM is also working with two Ohio companies-Applied Sciences and Pyrograf Products Inc on advanced batteries. It does appear that GM’s LT plan is to own their own battery technology, which is not a bad idea.

    http://tinyurl.com/5rrzdj


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    Rocky

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:28 am)

    Very nice… but all this to put a battery in a Covolt. Actually, when you buy a Cobalt it’s basically because that’s what you can afford. You don’t buy it for it’s style.


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    DeRek

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:33 am)

    Great scoop!

    More A123 vs LG comparisons will be useful.

    If A123 is superior in performance/sophistication and cost is not a significant differentiating factor, and assuming the design allows easy interchangeability, should Chevy give Volt buyers an option – to choose the battery pack?


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    Morgan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:34 am)

    111 JC Briggs:

    I saw parts of that and turned it off in disgust since it was clearly a hatchet piece. I have no idea why PBS would want to run that garbage without any recent updating.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:36 am)

    #136 Rocky

    Very nice… but all this to put a battery in a Covolt. Actually, when you buy a Cobalt it’s basically because that’s what you can afford. You don’t buy it for it’s style.
    ———————————————

    How dare you! The Volt is no Cobalt with a battery!
    *cough* Cruze *cough*

    /couldn’t resist


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:39 am)

    butters said: “For crying out loud, McCain could have picked any number of leading conservative minds to be his senior economic advisor, and he picked Phil Gramm! Talk about hurting the economy!”

    Obama is dangerous. If communists/socialists were to take over our govt they would do it with a candidate like Obama, the quintessential demagogue. T know who he really is you’ve got to look into his past. Do a little research on Frank Marshall Davis and you’ll see what a profound influence he’s had on Obama. FMD was an Obama mentor and communist and socialist. He believed fervently in total income redistribution. Any wonder why the Obama campaign is so upset over what Joe the plumber brought out?


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:45 am)

    Without an engine and transmission a Cobalt is worth about 10 give or take. Put a price tag of 25 on a Volt and you get around 25 minutes each way to get a total of 40 miles to do what? “Honey! The kids and I are stuck at the soccer field and Triple A says a “jump” won’t help!” Call a flatbed? Chaching!!!


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:50 am)

    randy #126

    “WHy doesn,t GM want more than one supplier, they may need quick back-up supply if volts sell like crazy or if some glitch develops in their LG battery.”

    *** *** ***

    Why does it seem that so many feel that Conti/A123 are out of the running? CPI was awarded the contract for the 1st GEN Volt. With the aggressive plans for Volt advancement it’s possible that each of the first few years of Volt releases are each successive generations, so year 2 could very well be Gen 2 and they could very well go with a different supplier. With the advancement of this technology it would not make sense to contract anything other than short term, things change so quickly.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:51 am)

    #140 Nobama
    I’d like to do a little research to determine your influences. How does one get so paranoid/extreme? Fascinating.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:52 am)

    The vehicle was a fantastic novel idea in it’s sporty concept version. Put a bigger battery and squeak an few more miles into a two seater Solstice COUPE. That would be worth the money.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:56 am)

    Statik Says
    How dare you! The Volt is no Cobalt with a battery!
    *cough* Cruze *cough*

    /couldn’t resist

    Without all the style of the Concept… Then what is it?


  147. 147
    miss floyd

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:58 am)

    thank you guys OBAMA SUPORRTS THIS VOTE 4 OBAMA!


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:59 am)

    I’m #29,000-something on this blog’s Volt waiting list. Bring it on!

    USA car makers must get very agile and reactive err pro-active, as if they were little start-up companies. Like Chrysler’s hint that they might do a Jeep with in-wheel motors…now…actually do it.

    Our second Irish president: O’Bama in ’08!


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:01 am)

    Too bad Conti will not get the contract… I just hope the jobs of my ex co-workers at Conti are not in jeopardy because of this.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:05 am)

    Excuse me… Statik
    Allow me to dare say and I’ll take it one step further than even calling it a “Vega II” let’s get Cadillac to redesign it and call it “The Cimarron II” and feature it at GM’s next Motorama as, “The All Electric Car of the Future!”


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:08 am)

    139 Statik:

    Bite your tongue! Function over form is the watch word here.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:14 am)

    OK NY folks, get ready for the NY rules and regulations to kick in soon after the VOLT starts selling. After driving to Ohio and paying 95 cents a gal. less for gas ($2.44) I realized that in NY we will have added to our electric bill a surcharge for charging our electric vehicles. When registering your VOLT you will pay a surcharge because you buy less gas. Thruway tolls will probably be higher for ERV’s. Funny there are even no tolls in OHIO for better wider interstate roads!!


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:17 am)

    Rocky:

    Statik Says
    How dare you! The Volt is no Cobalt with a battery!
    *cough* Cruze *cough*

    /couldn’t resist
    ——————
    #145 Rocky says, Without all the style of the Concept… Then what is it?

    #149 Rocky says, Excuse me… Statik
    Allow me to dare say and I’ll take it one step further than even calling it a “Vega II” let’s get Cadillac to redesign it and call it “The Cimarron II” and feature it at GM’s next Motorama as, “The All Electric Car of the Future!”
    ======================

    I was just ‘funning’ with you Rock, splitting the perverbial hair if you will…seemed like the thing to do on this thread, lol.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:21 am)

    Statik… I’ve built more cars than you’ll ever drive with form AND function. The Volt was a fantastic idea with it’s form AND function. With the kind of function one would expect from a Volt… the consumer deserves to have some FORM too.
    Put it all into a Solstice. Why did GM come out with all the hype with a totally new design when it wasn’t necessary.

    Please Statik… you don’t know what you say… bite your own tongue…. and KMA.


  155. 155
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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:25 am)

    #142 Grizzly

    Why does it seem that so many feel that Conti/A123 are out of the running? CPI was awarded the contract for the 1st GEN Volt. With the aggressive plans for Volt advancement it’s possible that each of the first few years of Volt releases are each successive generations, so year 2 could very well be Gen 2 and they could very well go with a different supplier. With the advancement of this technology it would not make sense to contract anything other than short term, things change so quickly.

    ——————————————-
    It is possible Conti/A123 could come back to the table at some point, but I have a feeling it will be along time before anyone gets the opportunity to bid on the Volt’s battery contract again.

    I would imagine GM has back loaded commitments to the winner to get them to bend over on the testing/prototypes phase and to justify them putting resources into factory/plant production. It wouldn’t surprise me to see some kind of 5 year/numerical production contract coming out of this…then you’d have to tack that onto a 2011 start date, etc. etc.

    I would think LG would demand a sizeable commitment from GM…in the same nature that GM would want a decent scaleable discount on any order they place.

    I would think Conti/A123 would have opportunities provided them elsewhere in the organization, maybe on other/new hybrid platforms in the future…whenever/whatever that is, I don’t know.

    /just my 2p


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:28 am)

    #153 Rocky

    Statik… I’ve built more cars than you’ll ever drive with form AND function. The Volt was a fantastic idea with it’s form AND function. With the kind of function one would expect from a Volt… the consumer deserves to have some FORM too.
    Put it all into a Solstice. Why did GM come out with all the hype with a totally new design when it wasn’t necessary.

    Please Statik… you don’t know what you say… bite your own tongue…. and KMA.
    ——————————-

    Maybe it didn’t come through, I was just being sarcastic…not actually disagreeing with you. Cobalt with a battery is the same as a Cruze with a battery.

    We are on the same side, lol.

    Personally, I would have rathered they stuffed EV capability in a existing platform than what we have now. It would have been faster to market and cheaper.

    /sorry for the confusion, I wasn’t trying to get your goat
    //peace


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:31 am)

    Fascinating to read the rather pathetic posts of the CCP Officers confined to basement hovels, trying to trash a product that’s a presold smash hit. That the CCP assigns this much attention to a western concern indicates their deep seated fear of their technical prowess. Truly, if anyone thinks pivotal energy technology is going to be given to CCP fascists – think again. Maybe if they learn a thing or two about human rights – it’ll change.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:35 am)

    #153 Rocky
    “The Volt was a fantastic idea with it’s form AND function.”

    Wuh? Didn’t form fight function wrt aero?


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:37 am)

    #156 reelist

    Fascinating to read the rather pathetic posts of the CCP Officers confined to basement hovels, trying to trash a product that’s a presold smash hit. That the CCP assigns this much attention to a western concern indicates their deep seated fear of their technical prowess. Truly, if anyone thinks pivotal energy technology is going to be given to CCP fascists – think again. Maybe if they learn a thing or two about human rights – it’ll change.

    —————————————————–
    Ah, finally those capitalist pigs will pay for their crimes, eh? Eh, comrades? Eh?

    http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsB/1085-23275.gif


  160. 160
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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:47 am)

    Other random news for the bottom of a long thread from GM:
    —-
    NEW YORK (AP) — General Motors Corp. said Thursday it will suspend several benefit programs for salaried workers as it seeks to cut costs in the difficult auto market.

    The automaker will temporarily stop company matching of its 401(k) program as of Nov. 1, GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. It also will suspend tuition reimbursement and adoption assistance programs as of the end of this year, he said.
    —–
    Thats a good way to cut some payroll…I’m sure the employees aren’t dancing in the street though.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081023/general_motors_labor.html


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:50 am)

    Statik – Even though this seems to be the kookiest thread ever (I didn’t see a vote for Ron Paul shot up there, though, although I might have missed it), there’s one of your favorites missing, so I’ll throw it in for good measure -

    (begin sarcasm)
    Now, they just have to announce the E85 and HYDROGEN range extenders!
    (end sarcasm)

    Hope that completes this thread for ya! :)

    edit: guess you can’t use fake looking html tags for sarcasm, hmm?


  162. 162
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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:53 am)

    Also, we had a little discussion yesturday about potential vehicles added to the RWD flex line in Oshawa…to go along with the Camaro.

    One of those was the G8, currently now a captive import from Australia. Well…we can cross that one of the list, apparently it is noedead.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=134167

    /alot of ‘Lutz’ cars are dying…barely after they hit the dealer lots (think Lutz photo-op in front of the Saturn Sky/Pontia Solstice/HUMMER and now G8)

    —————————————–
    —————————————–
    #160 Jeffery

    Statik – Even though this seems to be the kookiest thread ever (I didn’t see a vote for Ron Paul shot up there, though, although I might have missed it), there’s one of your favorites missing, so I’ll throw it in for good measure
    (begin sarcasm)

    Now, they just have to announce the E85 and HYDROGEN range extenders!
    (end sarcasm)

    Hope that completes this thread for ya!
    edit: guess you can’t use fake looking html tags for sarcasm, hmm?

    ————
    Nice…you complete me, lol.

    /big nope on those fake HTMLs…total disappearing act, heeh


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:53 am)

    Statik… I’m totally cool with you.
    I just get upset when I read all the crap that gets posted here and all the self righteous tech bull to warrant the validity of a vehicle that was supposed to be one thing and now is another. There are many other decent platforms available to support the concept of “all electric”. I just feel deceived and we’ve all been there many times before. And one more thing “Aero” my A@#. That’s more smoke. Unless you plan on going beyond the speed limits aero means zip.
    Again… I’m with you.


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    xcited

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:55 am)

    Great news, step by step we’ll be there


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    Rocky

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (10:57 am)

    Enough.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:00 am)

    #162 Rocky
    “Unless you plan on going beyond the speed limits aero means zip”

    Where is the white paper on that?


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:02 am)

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see GM offering both a base model Volt and a high end Volt. The high end will include the deluxe ipod control panel, some sort of booster for the sound system, more selection in exterior colors (bumble-bee), and a foto cell roof.

    Both models will feature common comfort items. AC, In seat heating, CD/iPod system, and tinted glass.

    A standard Cruze control panel may be used on the base model Volt.

    High end Volt $28,500 after tax rebate.

    Base model Volt $22,000 after tax rebate. In effect destroying 80% of the competition right out of the gate.

    ___________________________________

    It seems like nearly all other GM models have some sort of base and higher level formats. And with the word from GM being that the Cruze and the Volt “will share many components”. Hummm, isn’t that an interestingly vague statement.

    Do the Cruze and Volt center control panels have a similar shape?
    http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/cruze-interior.jpg

    =D~


  168. [...] Chevy Volt newsletter…information regarding Volt’s battery pack suppliers…the plot thickens… GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:06 am)

    159 Statik:

    Time they lived outside the bubble that a large corporation provides…401(k) matching is gone and I have already taken a pay cut. This is just a reality about small businesses.

    I am not really thrilled about it but I have money coming in and a job. They should be thankful they still have theirs :)


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:12 am)

    I would like a volt or a Chrysler EV Van that could go the first 40 miles AER. It sounds like either would get the 7.5K credit, both D and R candidates supported this, to my knowledge. People can vote how they like. Come on technology! Save us! Obama will lower my taxes more than McCain however I have an issue giving money to people that they didn’t earn. I think that reguardless of who gets in the people and me included are ready for a massive undertaking to bring us cheap electric vehicles and all sources of energy.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:18 am)

    At least we know more than we did before. I hope both companies continue with their battery development and working with GM. GM will need both companies if they intend to extend the Volt’s drive train concept to other vehicles or to mass produce the Volt in very large quantities for world-wide sale.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:21 am)

    K2 got it right. You need to look at the power tool experience for the answer as to why GM is going with LG Chem. Iron Phospate is a 3.2V system and their 18650 is 1.0Ah. NMC blends are 3.6V and ~ 1.5Ah per cell. Doing the math, NMC has 5.4 Watt-hours (Wh) versus 3.2 Wh, and it is Wh’s that do work once you meet the power requirements. There are enough batteries in parrallel that you do not need a 60C rate battery – in almost every application 15C is the max.

    As for LG Chem, make no mistake they are a Korean company so the $7500 tax rebate is propping up Korean battery manufacturing not developing a domestic industry. Congress should have included a requirement that the batteries be developed and manufactured in the US.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:33 am)

    Check on GM’s market position today and figure out how a company that is about to fold or merge can continue to put money into this trinket. They are about to cancel sponsorships with NASCAR and are still laying off workers yet they continue to plan on the Volt that will depend on the rich buyers for the first few years per Lutz. How many ricn people are really concerned with fuel economy? They are the Escalade, Hummer and other guzzler purchasers. Also what percentage of GM’s market is rich people? Dave K, look at todays cost of these little gadgets and then figure taxes and other costs and then see where the price of the Volt is. GM operates like a body that has been cut in half from head to foot. The right side says we are loosing money every quarter and the left side(the dreaming designers) are saying let’s spend unknown millions on Fadmobiles. A lot of the people that contribute to this site and feel like I did when the idea of the Volt first started, are still seemingly going along with GM regardless of what the end result is. A battery pack with a 100,000 mile warranty and a $12,000-15,000 replacement cost, then what ? You lug that 1200 pound load around with your 1.4L gas engine until you car replace it. Have you even paid for the Volt yet ? Look at the Toyota and Honda market and see how they compare with our high cost, low quality and poor economy vehicles. With our retail product being 60-70% labor do you really wonder why companies are going elsewhere for affordable labor. I am pro organized labor but what good are good wages and benefits if you can’t get a job?


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:36 am)

    #168 Morgan

    159 Statik:

    Time they lived outside the bubble that a large corporation provides…401(k) matching is gone and I have already taken a pay cut. This is just a reality about small businesses.

    I am not really thrilled about it but I have money coming in and a job. They should be thankful they still have theirs
    ————————————
    Indeed. Owning my own small business certainly doesn’t afford me such a benefit, where you only have the money you make, so I can’t sympathize with this lose on a personal level. Still, I imagine it is a tough thing for employees to swallow, especially because it is a right across the board action, regardless of merit on the part of the individual.

    That compensation was essentially part of their pay package…but something that can be eliminated easily in this environment, after all GM wants people to leave. Unfortunately, most vocations tied to the auto industry are a endangered species and people just have to suck it up and try to hold on to what they have left.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:56 am)

    During battery warranty negotiations GM must allow a “powered by LG” logo to be prominently displayed on all Volts. In return LG has agreed to assume a greater portion of warranty cost. This is a win-win situation. It also avoids deception by acknowledging that the primary power source of this vehicle is not produced by Chevy.


  176. 176
    John Anderson

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:00 pm)

    Vote for Obama & Biden


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:08 pm)

    #123 Tom Says: “… I thought that there was a promise to use American made batteries in Detroit or at least an American company, the last thing we need to do is start buy more over seas product and putting more Americans out of work. What is wrong with our country.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    At this point, almost all batteries are manufactured in Asia. If we wanted to wait until 2015 for the Volt, maybe we could get domestically produced batteries.

    Let’s put it this way, I would rather buy batteries from South Korea than oil from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Russia.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:20 pm)

    @ #172 Bob McGovern

    You are on this site why?

    Same goes for #175

    Does anyone have a comprehensive list of what IS known about the Volt and its production? This would be a required read before posting on this site. I’m tired of people beating dead horses and throwing out “facts” that have already been dispelled.


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:21 pm)

    D*I*C*K swinging a plenty in this blog with not a wise word said by the more geni*tally challenged! Try a pump guys, it works better, maybe a battery powered one.


  180. 180
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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:27 pm)

    “Ener1 Acquires Leading Korean Lithium-ion Battery Cell Producer; $34M Think Global Purchase Order”

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/ener1-acquires.html


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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:32 pm)

    #121 John C Briggs

    As a currently unemployed engineer who is applying for a job at A123 Systems right now, I assure you that it matters which company wins the contract and I assure you that A123 Systems is an American Company employing a lot of Americans, for the moment anyway.
    It definitely matters to me, my wife, and my two children.
    Thanks
    John C. Briggs
    ______________________________________________________

    I feel for you…but the point you raise is (to me) irrelevant..LG also employs Americans too.

    But A123 will build in China..so if you get a job it will be hopefully to design Gen 2 batteries for the Volt.

    I personally feel that this initial contract will be for the first 10,000 test fleet units, allowing A123 (and other technologies) to advance for full production release, GM will also likely still buy batteries for Gen 2 testing…the contract that will count the most is the full fledged “..build em as fast as you can..” awarding.

    Right now, I doubt either battery will be built here..but once production really starts…new ball game.

    Hang in there..and I hope all works out for you.

    Peace


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    Scott

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:46 pm)

    Did anyone see the Frontline show on the other night that talked to global warming (sorry, don’t know the actual name). I don’t know when this was filmed but they were allowed to see one of the Volt prototypes. It bearly ran 10mph and died before making a hundred yards or so.

    I very very much want to believe that GM is serious about the Volt but continue to wonder if the skeptics are right…that GM is just biding time till oil prices come back down?


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    Morgan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:47 pm)

    179 Reelist:

    Thanks for posting that. I had heard about all their expansion and everything because I live in Northern Indiana.

    Enerdel is really the battery company on the move. A123 seems to have chronic “moneyitis” i.e. We need more capital! we have to go public! yadda yadda yadda. Meanwhile Enerdel is the battery company on the move, building plants, making strategic moves to secure their supply line.

    I like this company, and not only because they are located in Indiana (more companies really need to take another look at the midwest)


  184. 184
    Len

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (12:51 pm)

    The A123 batteries don’t need the ultra caps, they can charge to 80% of their capacity much faster than the LG Chem batteries built on the older technology. The A123 batteries are inherently safe with no risk of thermal runaway (fire, explosion) and the cooling crap was needed not for the A123 batteries, but for the LG Chem batteries due to their high internal resistance. Same for the conservative charge and discharge using only 50% of the capacity. The LG Chem choice is also why they have to price in a replacement battery. So I cry bull***t.

    On the other hand I suppose they have to kick something out the door and it may well be GM management felt more secure with a larger company at this time.

    I used the higher capacity chemistrys for awhile, but got tired of replacing batteries (it gets expensive). I am still using my first A123 batteries and they reliably deliver the amps which is probably more important for my application (model airplanes) than automobiles (but it is just that which the ultra caps will do).


  185. 185
    GM Volt will retail ~$40,000 - Page 4 - Tesla Motors Club Forum

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:16 pm)

    [...] GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site Blog Archive BREAKING: LG Chem and Compact Power Inc. to Supp… [...]


  186. 186
    Estero

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:22 pm)

    #27 nasaman said:

    LG/CPI have both the corporate size & the expertise (not to mention the financial muscle) to make them the best choice ….even if they hadn’t been the low bidder! I’m greatly relieved that A123 didn’t win!
    _______

    In your judgment, which is the better battery pack? The one made by LG/CPI or the one made by A123/Conti?


  187. 187
    Wayne

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:42 pm)

    At one time I thought EnerDel may be a player in the automotive lithium battery game since it had Delphi as a partner at one point.


  188. 188
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:44 pm)

    #181 Scott

    Did anyone see the Frontline show on the other night that talked to global warming (sorry, don’t know the actual name). I don’t know when this was filmed but they were allowed to see one of the Volt prototypes. It bearly ran 10mph and died before making a hundred yards or so.

    I very very much want to believe that GM is serious about the Volt but continue to wonder if the skeptics are right…that GM is just biding time till oil prices come back down?
    —————————————

    Yeah, I watched it. It was called Heat. It is streamed online as well if anyone wants to watch it.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/heat/

    It is entertaining, they put alot of the various pieces together…a little judgemental maybe, but that may be a fair stance. No real conclusions to wrap it up, but a decent program overall.


  189. 189
    GmsAJoke

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:51 pm)

    Since this has gone way OT,

    Bob McGovern
    You are a lost sheep if you believe what you said here,

    “How many ricn people are really concerned with fuel economy? They are the Escalade, Hummer and other guzzler purchasers”

    Those people that so many idiolize are paycheck to paycheck housing ATM fake rich. Real money doesn’t waste money on showing off, they look to save money on everthing they do. That is why they stay rich while the hummer crowd ends up in BK.


  190. 190
    GLV

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:52 pm)

    Way to go Statik! You made the top posters list twice! How you do that? :)

    (Copied from the home page just now)
    Top Commentators
    noel park(1281)
    Grizzly(1206)
    Statik(1196)
    Rashiid Amul(1174)
    N Riley(1057)
    Dave G(1008)
    Tagamet(866)
    RB(752)
    Jim I(613)
    Statik(596)


  191. 191
    George K

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (1:56 pm)

    Wow! The battery announcement is a MAJOR step forward. No need to hide the fact now. So, lets get that battery factory going, and get those test cars out on the road!!!

    =D~~~~


  192. 192
    Statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (2:30 pm)

    #189 GLV

    Way to go Statik! You made the top posters list twice! How you do that?

    (Copied from the home page just now)
    Top Commentators
    noel park(1281)
    Grizzly(1206)
    Statik(1196)
    Rashiid Amul(1174)
    N Riley(1057)
    Dave G(1008)
    Tagamet(866)
    RB(752)
    Jim I(613)
    Statik(596)

    ————————————-
    Well…we did touched on this yesturday, but apparently there is some kind of coding glitch. Basically, my post gets filtered to one or the other ‘IDs,’ sometimes when I post the ‘top statik’ gets a point, sometimes the ‘lower statik’.

    It all just points to a sad reality…I have too much time on my hands, and I’ll do anything to avoid the humilation of being at the top of that list. (still kidding noel, heeh)


  193. 193
    A123 batteries - R/C Tech Forums

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (2:33 pm)

    [...] related article, as huge applications like 1:1 will trickle battery technology down to us: GM Volt Batteries Ventura Roadrunners (roadrunnersrc.com) Mi2EC/Tekin RS/SpeedPassion 13.5/Orion 3600 TA-05, TB-02 [...]


  194. 194
    Steven P. Jobs

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (2:47 pm)

    I am actually against Big (and slow) companies. They tend to get passed up by more nimble smaller companies all the time. Then they just go out and buy them to “catch up” because they were so incompetent to begin with. If GM was to buy a chunk of A123 (via IPO) then they could have more leverage with them, a possible long-term advantage. Of course IMO GM is still too big and moves slower than honey going uphill.


  195. 195
    Clive Johansan

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:00 pm)

    @Mr. Jobs:

    I agree about BIG companies at least in the IT industry, but not so much in Manufacturing. A classic example of big bloated companies that have been surpassed numerous times by smarter, smaller ones is Cisco and Oracle. They only stay relevant because they had enough cash to purchase superior small companies. However, usually the brightest people in the small acquired company leave in short order, thereby causing the bigger one to start declining again. Its a repeated cycle in the tech world. But in Manufacturing World Bigger tends to be better and results in more reliable deliverables, at least that has been my experience.


  196. 196
    reelist

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:04 pm)

    @Steve:

    “Of course IMO GM is still too big and moves slower than honey going uphill.”

    Which is of course why they alone are offering a Li-ion E-REV plug in car.


  197. 197
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:05 pm)

    Statik #154

    “I would imagine GM has back loaded commitments to the winner to get them to bend over on the testing/prototypes phase and to justify them putting resources into factory/plant production”

    *** *** ***

    You could be right, but once they go full scale I’ve got to believe that to proliferate the Volt not just all over the US but China and Europe as they’ve expressed they’re going to need all the packs they can get. Even if for a while CPI has the majority, I’ve got to believe they’ll negotiate such that Conti can be brought in as a secondary supplier. FWIW the article also did say that the contract was for GEN1.


  198. 198
    Peter Berardo

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:07 pm)

    Too bad a US company isn’t used instead of LG Chem.


  199. 199
    bigjim-ky

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:15 pm)

    They’re sure taking their sweet-ass time. Release the damned thing before I lose my job and don’t have any money to buy one. Or better yet, wait for a full-on worldwide recession to release it, and cry about not selling enough.


  200. 200
    N Riley

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:20 pm)

    With GM and Chrysler talking about merging, it could be that GM chose LG because of two reasons. reason one- LG’s battery was superior at this stage. Reason two- Using LG’s batteries would give A123 time to get investments and build their capabilities to handle future orders from Chrysler and GM. With GM and Chrysler discussing matters, this reasoning seems to fit what is happening. GM does not want to lose the extra capacity A123 could give them in the future so, GM probably was talking to Chrysler and GE about A123. GM could not afford to support both companies with a contract, but by “helping along” A123 they insured future access.


  201. 201
    JohnnyZ

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:26 pm)

    I still believe that sneaky Lutz is developing some fancy battery tech on the side and is just using the current Li vendors until GM is ready to rollout their own. Remember that Maximum Bob came from a large battery maker before he hitched his wagon to GM. I am sure he knows a thing or two about batteries, especially on the manufacturing process side.


  202. 202
    bruce g

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:28 pm)

    I hope this means they will be able to increase the production numbers in the first year.
    That is good news.


  203. 203
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:40 pm)

    Johnnyz #201

    I believe they are too. A123′s website mentions that they’re developing “chemistry” with GM not batteries per se. GM is also working with the two Ohio tech companies on batt technology, and Lutz has mentioned from his experience at Exxide how making lead-acid batteries can be automated to the point whereby there is almost no human intervention in the assembly. Add these up and it sure seems like GM has it’s own batt production aspirations.


  204. 204
    kdawg

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:43 pm)

    Wasn’t there already an article posted where GM was working on their own battery technology?


  205. 205
    Steve

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:49 pm)

    Well, its the final nail in the coffin for me.
    First the $46,000 price tag. I mean who is GM really trying to sell to? Certainly not to middle class Americans. And, how will they ever compete with Toyota who will no doubt come in at about half the cost.
    Again Detroit misses the mark.
    Of course, they’re also hoping for a $7,500+ credit handout per car from the government. But now, using Korean batteries-that’s really it! How are we ever, ever going to get out of this loss of industry and loss of jobs crisis if our next great opportunity for our American future is again sold off.
    How many jobs could there be if we developed and made the batteries here? We, as Americans, have failed again. GM, who got me very inspired to get in line for the Volt has lost me, and I’m sure many others as they pander to high end car buyers, fail to serve the mass public, and set up another attempt to exploit the government.


  206. 206
    volts rock

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:51 pm)

    i want my volt to run on biofuel. i can make that myself at home take that oil monsters.


  207. 207
    N Riley

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (3:58 pm)

    Statik, you deserve to have Lyle correct your number of post by combining the two sets. If anyone deserves to be at the top of the list, you do. I have just been skimming through this current post and it seems like you have a dozens of comments and/or are mentioned by other posters ten times as much as anyone else. Of course, you deserve every mention (good and bad). As you would say… hehe.

    Keep up the good work, my friend.


  208. 208
    Jamaica Choice

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:04 pm)

    I want to be able to shop around for my battery just like you currently do for your car battery. When will I be able to go to the back of the AutoZone or PepBoys store and pick my T-shaped Volt battery depending on my current needs and/or budget ??? Probably never or maybe when they get them down to a more manageable size, say around 100 pounds (that is less than my HD television weighs and I loaded it in my car by myself).


  209. 209
    Anon

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:10 pm)

    #122 John C. Briggs
    ———————————-

    Good luck with your application. What position are you looking at?


  210. 210
    Richard

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:13 pm)

    Scott and others…I too saw that Frontline documentary on ‘Heat’. They really savaged GM but I have a suspicion as to why.

    Frontline had an ‘intervew’ with a spokeswoman and for every question posed she said absolutely nothing we don’t already know. Every reply was couched in carefully choreographed corporate doublespeak. “Why did you ‘can’ the EV1 project was one question and essentially all she said was: “because we chose to that’s why” …suggesting some long term marketing strategy as a lame excuse… “Oh there are still a few in museums” she clearly parroted… yeah right!

    PBS are not idiots and they don’t like being treated like idiots… they wanted straight-up honest answers to a couple of valid question(s) …not canned, aseptic, corporate head-office baffle-gab… so they struck back making GM look like fools with a pirated clip of an early Volt prototype test run. Somehow I doubt GM provided that clip to Frontline..and if they did they’re crazier than I thought.

    Message to GM:.. we the consumer (nor PBS) didn’t just fall out of the back of a turnip truck. A lot went on behind the scenes, and I’d have liked to have been a fly on the wall when those EV1 ‘decisions’ were debated. PBS wanted to know a little more… the straight goods…they didn’t get ‘em so they hit GM where it hurts.


  211. 211
    statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:18 pm)

    #207 N Riley

    Statik, you deserve to have Lyle correct your number of post by combining the two sets. If anyone deserves to be at the top of the list, you do. I have just been skimming through this current post and it seems like you have a dozens of comments and/or are mentioned by other posters ten times as much as anyone else. Of course, you deserve every mention (good and bad). As you would say… hehe.

    Keep up the good work, my friend.
    ————————————
    Thanks…I think, lol. I’ll let you in on my secret…just be really unpopular, hehe.

    I don’t want Lyle going to any trouble over something like that though, hehe. To tell you the truth, if I had a vote, I would say to lose the whole ‘top commentator’ section on the front page. We don’t need to someday have a ‘FIRST’ war between some guy called ‘l33tVoltd00d7′ and ‘GMizUb3r’ clogging up all our threads. We all know the people who post alot…don’t need a list to define the community.

    To the sites credit I haven’t seen alot of that at all. The topic must not be ‘exciting’ enough to draw that kind of crowd.

    211th!!!


  212. 212
    Jamie Redwine

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:26 pm)

    I already don’t like the VOLT. The design sucks. Why did GM change it from the first design? I don’t want one now. I am going to wait for the Camaro.


  213. 213
    Jim I

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:33 pm)

    Personally, I could care less who makes the battery pack, as long as it meets the specs for performance, life expectancy, safety, warranty, and delivery.

    Statik: You seem to make such a big deal about some missed deadlines, that were never published, except in comments by Bob Lutz, who should be called the Joe Biden of GM for making so many gaff remarks….. Whenever you start from scratch to design a new product, there are going to be unforseen delays, but that does not mean that the lost time can not be made up. I have been in exactly that position, and we still made our final deadlines for delivery to the customer. IMHO, GM has a lot of corporate reputation on the line to have delivery of vehicles for sale by November, 2010, and I for one think they will be there.

    Also, what happened to your self imposed limit of five posts per day???? ;) You do seem to have quite a bit of time on your hands lately…..

    Tag & Nasaman: Good to see both of you back!!!

    I have been very busy at work, so I have not had much time to post, but I am still reading the threads as time permits. It is still a great site, but I have to agree that I will be glad when the election is over, becuase the political posts don’t really fit here. Again, that is JMHO.

    Go GM! Go GM Volt Team!!

    NPNS!


  214. 214
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:55 pm)

    hi Steve # 205,

    “Well, its the final nail in the coffin for me.
    First the $46,000 price tag. I mean who is GM really trying to sell to? Certainly not to middle class Americans. And, how will they ever compete with Toyota who will no doubt come in at about half the cost.”

    _______________________________

    I expect the first run of Volt to be very high priced. As these will sell to the rich and famous as novelties and trophy’s .

    It’s the second run of Volt that we here in this forum are concerned with. The 60,000 that follow. Well actually, the 30,000 that are sold in the USA and Canada. 30,000 will be crated and placed on cargo ships.

    If it turns out that THESE 30,000 are also prices in nose-bleed-land then GM will hope to bank on we window shoppers turning toward a silver plug-in Vue, a red Camaro, or a white Cruze.

    http://www.gmnext.com/

    =D~


  215. 215
    DaveP

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (4:55 pm)

    Well, this is certainly not on topic, but here goes.
    I’m always saying electric cars have been a good investment (15% annual increase in value for RAV4-EVs) but this is ridiculous (if true):
    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/05/did-a-used-ev1-really-just-sell-for-465-000/
    It seems an EV1 fled to Canada and escaped crushing. It is reported to have just sold for $465k (Canadian).

    Could this be what Statik really did with his house money? ;)

    By the way, the Stonecutters actually run everything. Vote for Homer the Great! Ooops, I’ve said too much. Just kidding!


  216. 216
    The Anti-Oil Jihadi

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:04 pm)

    What’s with all the Obama supporters in this thread?

    Let’s falsely assume that McCain is like Bush, which he’s not. Let’s simultaneously assume that Obama will be like Carter, which he wont.

    Facts:
    1. Bush has made more effort in alternative energy research than all previous presidents combined.

    2. Bush has said this country is addicted to oil and needs to break the habit.

    3. Conservatives don’t like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even Venezuela and Russia having so much income from oil. Look what they do with that income; cause problems.

    4. Conservatives want oil to die so it will take those countries economies’ with it.

    If any of you want to say that McCain will be another Bush, then consider what type of world our children will inherit if Obama is another Carter, and Iran gets nuclear weapons, then Turkey, then Iraq, then Saudi Arabia (because Iran has them).

    McCain will deal with Iran, Obama may very well not – or even worse do a half quality job of doing so.

    Conservatives would love nothing more than for farmers to create ethanol and no oil be imported to the USA. Conservatives want nuclear power to charge electric vehicles, which will use ethanol when needed.

    Obama has a liberal background, and very little experience, and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty has been broken by an unelected terrorist sponsoring religious government.

    Vote for Obama and you just might live to see your kids or grandkids drafted into the army to go up against a nuclear armed islamic country which believes we are infidels because we’re not like them.

    World war II should have been dealt with by the preemptive invasion of Germany once the treaty of versailles was broken. Imagine how less painful it would have been to deal with a problem proactively, with courage and confidence.

    What’s worse for our country (long term), another Carter or another Bush?

    Oil needs to die, and conservatives will be much more likely to make it happen. Vote McCain.


  217. 217
    Jake

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:14 pm)

    Skipping this whole thread…well I was rooting for A123, but it sounds like LG/CPI hopefully have a good product on their hands. I only really supported A123 because I know a bit about them. I’m sure LG is fine. Maybe future generations will be different.

    And for crying out loud, let’s not get too political here.


  218. 218
    Mark Z

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:21 pm)

    Had to replace the original battery in the 2004 Cadillac XLR today. Since GM only warranties the original battery for FOUR years, no prorate is available even though it was a 6 year battery design!

    Cost: $161 (battery only – labor extra.)

    Be thankful that the VOLT is not getting AC-Delco batteries!


  219. 219
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:27 pm)

    Jamie Redwine #212

    “I don’t want one now. I am going to wait for the Camaro.”

    *** *** ***

    Interesting how I suggested some time ago that those who would accept nothing but the concept design weren’t really interested in an EV. ;)


  220. 220
    seandude

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (5:41 pm)

    GM has ignored making more efficient vehicles for far too long, i would love to buy a Volt, but i suspect the japanese will come out first with a better and more dependable electric driven hybrid car. GM gets exactly what it deserves when buyers go japanese, with electric or gas cars– too little —-much too late.
    sorry volt and gm admirers.


  221. 221
    Jerry Normandin

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (6:03 pm)

    GM.. PLEASE look at the A123 batteries again!The A123 technology is more advanced.

    Plus the nanoscale electrode technology is built on initial developments from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Going with the A123
    design would be the patriotic thing to do.


  222. 222
    D Lo

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:08 pm)

    For superfan #199 bigjim-ky:
    “They’re sure taking their sweet-ass time. Release the damned thing before I lose my job and don’t have any money to buy one. Or better yet, wait for a full-on worldwide recession to release it, and cry about not selling enough.”

    - – - – - – - -
    Bet on it. Serious, how hard can it be to name a supplier of batteries…for starters, Duracell


  223. 223
    statik

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:26 pm)

    #213 Jim I

    Statik: You seem to make such a big deal about some missed deadlines, that were never published, except in comments by Bob Lutz, who should be called the Joe Biden of GM for making so many gaff remarks….. Whenever you start from scratch to design a new product, there are going to be unforseen delays, but that does not mean that the lost time can not be made up. I have been in exactly that position, and we still made our final deadlines for delivery to the customer. IMHO, GM has a lot of corporate reputation on the line to have delivery of vehicles for sale by November, 2010, and I for one think they will be there.

    Also, what happened to your self imposed limit of five posts per day???? You do seem to have quite a bit of time on your hands lately…..

    Tag & Nasaman: Good to see both of you back!!!

    I have been very busy at work, so I have not had much time to post, but I am still reading the threads as time permits. It is still a great site, but I have to agree that I will be glad when the election is over, becuase the political posts don’t really fit here. Again, that is JMHO.

    —————————–
    Oh yeah…5 posts a day, hrm. I guess that is out the window. I’m being confined indoors? It is getting cold outside? GM-volt is getting more and more exciting everyday and I can’t stay away? I dunno…pick any of those excuses.

    As for the missed deadlines–Yupe, I’m all over them. I think you can add Wagoner in the mix along with Lutz (who your right is a definite liability to the project at this stage)…but I know what your saying, anything is possible to make up. You know me, I’m all about the accountability, what you say or write down you are responsible for.

    The problem is, GM has said all along everything has gone perfectly, better than expected even, they never say anything about unforeseen delays, they just pretend like everything is going peachy-keen and then preach some revisionist history. I do come off a little harsh, but I honestly harboUr no ill will towards GM, I just don’t have a filter when it comes to calling BS. I can understand if they come forward and say they are having problems, but the only problems they have been having is talking to much and doing very little.

    The fact is, we all want a Volt, that is why we are here. However, I have no sympathy for corporate apathy and as a consumer, I don’t like being mislead. GM has done very little in the last year and a half, other than talk…they have been dragging this out/working the PR all along, scooping up tax breaks and bailout (loan) cash.

    Now when the $7,500 rebate went from ‘per manufacturer’ to ‘industry wide,’ GM got a big slap in the face of this program, and GM was forced into action. Notice the flurry of ‘actual’ decision making and awarding of contracts as soon as their 250,000-$7,500 rebate gravy train got derailed. Coincidence? Maybe, but unlikely. All of their past transgressions and missed deadlines that were of no concern to themselves, but where to us (well to me anyway), are coming back on them.

    I’d also like to agree with you on the political stuff, I mean holy cow! Enough already! Thank goodness it is less than 2 weeks away. How the heck do Americans put up with it? In Canada, the PM says, ‘Election time!’ and a few weeks later it is over. No multi-year jostling and posturing, no political gridloc…and total overun of your news channels (don’t get me started)…I haven’t been able to stomach CNN since ’06, lol. It is like you guys spend a clear third of the term in ‘election mode’


  224. 224
    George K

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:32 pm)

    Scott
    “they were allowed to see one of the Volt prototypes. It bearly ran 10mph and died before making a hundred yards or so.

    I very very much want to believe that GM is serious about the Volt but continue to wonder if the skeptics are right…that GM is just biding time till oil prices come back down?”

    I tuned in just as they were trashing the Volt as the show car was not able to go up that hill. I was actually pretty mad about it.

    The show car is just that – a show car! It had a golf cart motor and 3 lead acid batteries. After the batteries ran down going up the hill, they acted like, “well, I wonder how serious are they about this car.”

    Let’s put this in perspective. GM is leading the way to a new driving paradigm. Displaying the show car in such a way , and hinting that the production Volt may have similar problems, is a cheap shot, at best.

    I’d like to see what their show looked like before they cut and re-cut, taped and re-taped, applied the audio track before the retakes, etc..

    Scott, I’m not aiming this at you :)

    =D~~~~


  225. 225
    roland

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:35 pm)

    #4 is a delusional idiot…just like Palin


  226. 226
    tom harwick

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (7:44 pm)

    Multinational corporations (like EXXON and many others) “simply” evade taxation by using an accounting mechanism known as “transfert pricing”.

    That means using fictitious prices in trade relations with abroad subsidiaries. This is perfectly legal (how do you control if it is the market price of a semi-finished product travelling from one country to another for transformation ? Often there is not even a market price).
    Using this technique, a multinational corporation may locate its profits in the most fiscally advantageous country, … among other possibilities.

    ————————————————————————–

    Your facts are all correct, but they do not apply very well to the petroleum production and marketing business. Transfer prices are subject to scrutiny by by outside and govt auditors, and must be substantiated. You state that there often is not a market price on which to base the transfer price. But we are talking about oil here. The market for crude oil is one of the most efficient and transparent in the world.


  227. 227
    Robert

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:01 pm)

    I’m still worried about GM solvency.


  228. 228
    Rocky

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:04 pm)

    ThombDbhomb Says:
    October 23rd, 2008 at 11:00 am

    #162 Rocky
    “Unless you plan on going beyond the speed limits aero means zip”

    Where is the white paper on that?

    White paper? Are you referring to substantiated proof? Gee… I hope not. But, just in case you just might not know about wind resistance at specific speeds… the aerodynamic drag at 60mph is literally insignificant. But… I guess in a Volt you better get that extra few hundred yards you’ve achieved in it before you have to re-charge it. So it does pay to drive the “redesigned”version… after all.
    I’m sorry. Really. If I’m going to drive around in a car that looks like that… 30 mpg sounds so much more inviting. Here we go with form and function.

    Mr. STATIK!!! Help me, “…come here I need you!”


  229. 229
    tom harwick

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:07 pm)

    LitroEnergy Power Cells Produce Continuous Output

    By combining a non-stop luminescing technology that has a 20-year duration (12-year half-life), with thin film photovoltaics in a layered arrangement, MPK Co. has devised a portable, continuous generator that could change the planet.

    The combining these two technologies – the thin-film solar and the LitroSpheres™ – would entail very thin, repeated layers of each so that a large number of stacked sets would comprise a significant power density. They call these versatile hybrid species, Litroenergy Power Cells, which can be scaled from micro applications to large utilities.

    The Litroenergy technology is based on a combination of an advanced phosphorus and tritium, hence the 12-year half-life.

    http://pesn.com/2008/10/22/9501495_Litroenergy_Power_Cells/
    —————————————————————————–
    No enough info here to actually debunk it, but “too good to be true” posts like this cry out for the skeptic’s response.

    1. What is the energy density? How much of this tape do you need to generate 100W?
    2. The luninescent tape has no off switch. So if it is capable of throwing off enough energy to move a couple of tons of steel from a standing start to 60 mph up a hill into the wind, where does all the waste heat do when the “generator” is not loaded?
    3. I guess most of you know what tritium is. Do people really want nuclear powered automobiles. How the heck do you market something like that.


  230. 230
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:21 pm)

    hi statik # 222,

    “…Bob Lutz, who should be called the Joe Biden of GM..”

    C’ mon now, Bob and Joe are both doing a good jobs. And seeing the occasional Obama/Biden bumper sticker almost makes a Prius look acceptable.

    _____________________________________

    And to address the “GM is just biding time till oil prices come back down?” comment.

    GM is doing well on this front. How many 30 MPG vehicles does GM need to offer?

    Look at the bright side. I for one am happy to have gas money left in my pocket at the end of the week. I see commerce moving along on the freeways. Long haul truckers are again making a profit. Workers can afford to drive to their job. And American made cars look more attractive. I honestly don’t see an economic ‘slow down’ anywhere near Santa Barbara.

    We must take into account that oil will be back up to $100 a barrel in 2011.

    This will be a result of production cut after production cut by OPEC. But, the Volt will be available to the public. And at least 6 other major auto makers will finally realize that the old piston n’ smoke routine is iron age history. And affordable gen II batteries will be available.

    What could hurt the Volt?
    1> lease only availability ( = 50% loss)
    2> severe shortfalls in Volt production ( = 50% loss)
    3> oil hovering at $22.50 a barrel ( = 50% loss)
    4> GM employees striking ~ $50 an hour wage contracts ( = no GM)

    Any one of these would be very bad news for GM and for car manufacturing in the USA. May as well just send your pay check to China for their new $18,000 “people’s car”. Anyone want this to happen?

    =D~


  231. 231
    Milo

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:28 pm)

    Horrible news.

    Lithium Manganese is subject to thermal runaway, fire and explosion. It requires cooling and heating.

    GM went the cheap way and it is going to be straddled with extra complexity due to impact protection, heating and cooling the battery packs. Wait till they get hit with the first “frying” lawsuit.

    Just to save a few dollars.

    The alternative A123 batteries do not need impact protection and do not need heating and cooling. And they last 10 times longer than the LG batteries.

    What a disaster. Just typical for a 3rd rate car company itself on the verge of bankruptcy and extinction and only alive due to its monopoly position.

    I for sure am NOT going to get a Volt. The Nissan EV will come out at the same time. I am going Nissan — don’t need a 2nd rate battery pack and a 3rd rate car company.


  232. 232
    Denis Lang

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (8:37 pm)

    Same old same old.

    The Volt is not an electric car.

    LG is Panasonic

    Chevron and GM together led to the end of Toyota’s RAV4-EV program

    Toyota-Panasonic formed a partnership to license and improve the nickel metal hydride battery NiMH for EVs. Around this time, GM purchased the worldwide patent rights to the NiMH battery. Later, GM decided to sell those rights to Texaco, which then merged with Chevron. Then Chevron decided to fund a lawsuit against Toyota-Panasonic.

    Chevron’s lawsuit led to a settlement agreement where Toyota paid $30M to Chevron, Toyota was granted the rights to use “small-format” batteries on the Prius, and Toyota agreed not to build “large-format” versions of its batteries (needed for plug-in cars) for export to the U.S. until 2014. Portions of the settlement agreement are still secret.


  233. 233
    Go Phillies/McCain!

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (9:47 pm)

    I agree with this post so much, I think it deserves a re-post!
    If you think it has nothing to do with this thread, think again!!!
    Thanks ” Anti-Oil Jihadi” for explaining the facts, though it will do no good. The “O.J. factor is in play! No matter what damning proof you may have, the blind will not see the light!
    Sadly we may be doomed! This will be the single most important election in U.S. history! I try to have faith in the American people but it is waning!

    “What’s with all the Obama supporters in this thread?

    Let’s falsely assume that McCain is like Bush, which he’s not. Let’s simultaneously assume that Obama will be like Carter, which he wont.

    Facts:
    1. Bush has made more effort in alternative energy research than all previous presidents combined.

    2. Bush has said this country is addicted to oil and needs to break the habit.

    3. Conservatives don’t like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even Venezuela and Russia having so much income from oil. Look what they do with that income; cause problems.

    4. Conservatives want oil to die so it will take those countries economies’ with it.

    If any of you want to say that McCain will be another Bush, then consider what type of world our children will inherit if Obama is another Carter, and Iran gets nuclear weapons, then Turkey, then Iraq, then Saudi Arabia (because Iran has them).

    McCain will deal with Iran, Obama may very well not – or even worse do a half quality job of doing so.

    Conservatives would love nothing more than for farmers to create ethanol and no oil be imported to the USA. Conservatives want nuclear power to charge electric vehicles, which will use ethanol when needed.

    Obama has a liberal background, and very little experience, and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty has been broken by an unelected terrorist sponsoring religious government.

    Vote for Obama and you just might live to see your kids or grandkids drafted into the army to go up against a nuclear armed islamic country which believes we are infidels because we’re not like them.

    World war II should have been dealt with by the preemptive invasion of Germany once the treaty of versailles was broken. Imagine how less painful it would have been to deal with a problem proactively, with courage and confidence.

    What’s worse for our country (long term), another Carter or another Bush?

    Oil needs to die, and conservatives will be much more likely to make it happen. Vote McCain.”


  234. 234
    GleninWI

     

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    Oct 23rd, 2008 (11:00 pm)

    MarkinWI

    You guys are the reason that Obama will be elected. What you stated made no sense whatsoever. If I get laid off, according to you, I can go to the guy down the street and ask him for a job. Corporations, big and small create jobs, not us working folks. It is very important to vote for McCain and Palin, otherwise our economy will hit hit depression status. Remember Carter? We need a strong economy so that the Volt and other cars like it can be manufactured. Cut corp taxes in relation to the production of green vehicles.


  235. 235
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (1:20 am)

    Tom #225 thanks for your answer to my post.

    Right, but oil companies trade a lot more products than crude oil.
    My experience in transfer prices show how clever may be some CFOs.


  236. 236
    tallomatic7

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (3:10 am)

    LG hun………. who are this people they make my washer & dryer ,my cell phone, and now car parts—-shurly it alien tech


  237. 237
    EXPOSED!

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (4:11 am)

    ELECTION 2008
    “Newspaper shows Obama belonged to socialist party
    Democrat’s campaign denied allegations, but new evidence indicates membership”

    http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78945

    Guess there’s more than meets the eye when he talks about “sharing the wealth”, a socialist idea!
    Are we yet done with entertaining the insane thought of actually voting for this fraud??? WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  238. 238
    Brad G

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (8:12 am)

    235 tallomatic7 Says:
    LG hun………. who are this people they make my washer & dryer ,my cell phone, and now car parts—-shurly it alien tech
    ————————
    FYI
    LG is the GE of Asia…
    Electrolux is the GE of Europe…
    GE of course kicks butt in the US.


  239. 239
    statik

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (8:21 am)

    #229 Dave K

    hi statik # 222,

    “…Bob Lutz, who should be called the Joe Biden of GM..”

    C’ mon now, Bob and Joe are both doing a good jobs. And seeing the occasional Obama/Biden bumper sticker almost makes a Prius look acceptable.
    ———————————–
    Hi Dave,

    Just wanted to throw this out…that is not my quote, that was part of Jim I’s quote (from #213), it was just in the ‘cut and paste’ section of my comments from him.

    /I don’t make political statements…I don’t like to live that dangerously, I cause enough problems for myself with my regular posts, lol


  240. 240
    Eva-lution

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (9:50 am)

    I just want an economical vehicle to drive as soon as possible…. My daily commute is killing my pocketbook and the enviroment.

    When can I get a Volt?


  241. 241
    HyperMiler

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (10:00 am)

    I don’t understand why A123 ever stood on a chance against LG; LG Chem already makes hundreds of millions Lithium batteries a year, found in laptops and cellphones. Even with this kind of manufacturing prowess, LG would be struggling to supply both Hyundai(1st customer to sign up) and GM(2nd customer to sign up), and this has led nervous Hyundai to seek second battery source from Samsung or SK.

    Making enough battery cells to build 100K Volts(In addition to 200K Hyundais) a year is a serious business, a job that only the likes of Matushita(Toyota) or LG(GM, Hyundai) would be capable of handling.

    This leaves only BYD of China and Samsung as major battery makers without an automotive battery deals, not counting BYD’s supply to its own BYD Automobile.


  242. 242
    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (10:17 am)

    #18
    We lost over 50,000 men for your ungrateful and spiteful country and have maintained your security and freedom ever since the cessation of hostilities at great expense to ourselves. The USA has risked crippling its own economy in an attempt to open markets all over the world for free trade. Our tolerance and encouragement of China is the premier example. By sacrificing our own needs and trading at a disadvantage to ourselves, we hope that a robust, free and growing economy in China will bring peace to the world eventually. The cost to us is staggering. The fact is we don’t need South Korea, Japan, Taiwan or China. We’re trying to help you and the smallness of your attitude bespeaks an insecurity regarding the true nature of our relationship. Or more succinctly, little man wishes he had a big stick.


  243. 243
    S. Baker

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (11:37 am)

    ” A vote for McCain & Palin will surly hurt the future of alternative fuel/energy cars and technology. If you are a supporter of alternative car/energy, you should cast your vote for Obama.”

    You’re kidding right? I don’t think so! McCain Palin all the way baby, I didn’t emigrate to America to move to another socialist country! I just bought 200 shares of GM Stock. I have over 700 shares of Ford, who do you think I would be rooting for? There will be a Volt in my driveway!


  244. 244
    DOOMED!

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (12:37 pm)

    “he will give me a tax cut of over $1,100 per year. McCain’s is only $325 per year.”

    Exactly my point. A sense of entitlement. What is the government going to “do” for me.
    This is why we are in the mess we are in. This is the root cause of why the economy collapsed, and there are alot of people in the country who will blindly vote a man into office because he promises that the Government will give them things.

    We are indeed Doomed as the Late Hunter S. Thompson said.


  245. 245
    Jeffhre

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (3:14 pm)

    1.21


  246. 246
    likes to think

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (4:26 pm)

    Someone said earlier they hop this car comes in under 40k. Its going to have come in a whole lot cheaper, like 50 % cheaper for this thing to sell. Its been documented many times ( forbes etc.) that the extremely overwhelming majority of people want to help the planet but will buy green because of savings. Even at 20k what is the payback period ????


  247. 247
    noel park

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (7:13 pm)

    #192 Statik:

    Yeah, it’s pretty embarassing all right. Not to worry, you guys will pass me up soon enough.

    Is it just me, or is it Statik sometimes and statik other times? Maybe that’s the problem. Or is there an imposter out there?


  248. 248
    GM-Volt Gets New Battery ~ The Blade by Ron Schenone, MVP

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (7:27 pm)

    [...] Source. [...]


  249. 249
    Jon

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (7:38 pm)

    Obama is up to something!! Do the right thing and vote McCain/Palin!! They are the ONLY choice! And remember, the economy was thriving until the Democrats took the house in 2006. GO McCAIN!!!!!!!!


  250. 250
    statik

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (7:48 pm)

    #247 noel park

    #192 Statik:

    Yeah, it’s pretty embarassing all right. Not to worry, you guys will pass me up soon enough.

    Is it just me, or is it Statik sometimes and statik other times? Maybe that’s the problem. Or is there an imposter out there?
    ————————————————
    Yeah, I’m not real consistant with the capitalization, but thats not it–it is just bugged, it just randomly assigns my posts to one or the other. No imposters yet, lol.

    At least that keeps my tally low…I’m more or a ‘snake in the grass’ type of guy anyway. Maybe a unprecedented ‘third’ Statik will show up on the list, lol.

    (=


  251. 251
    Kerry Webster » The Volt Gets a Battery Supplier

     

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    Oct 24th, 2008 (11:13 pm)

    [...] Treehugger.com Rueters GM-Volt.com [...]


  252. 252
    MarkinWI

     

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    Oct 25th, 2008 (8:41 am)

    #234 GleninWI – supply and demand have to grow in tandem in order for economic growth to be sustainable. It is not about Democrats and Republicans. It is about what the economy needs in order to be healthy right now. In 1980 we needed to de-centralize some industries. The break-up of Ma Bell was great. Reducing the top tax rates probably did help job growth. But we’ve gone too far, and the system is out of balance. If no one has money to buy what your factory makes, then you will not have a job. Balance, baby, balance.


  253. 253
    Luke

     

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    Oct 25th, 2008 (9:34 am)

    Dylan @ 4,

    vote for mccain & palin

    Comments like this are the reason I stopped reading gm-volt.com regularly. Then I get an e-mail about what looks like a very significant engineering development — and I have to listen to your jingoistic politics?!?

    Please, let’s talk about the car — if you want this car to be a success you’ll have to accept that some of us “hippies” are interested in this car. Anyway, I’ve gotta get back in my pickup truck, take off my baseball hat, and haul a trailer load of power tools through the 175 miles of Appalachian Mountains and rain to my dad’s organic vegetable farm, and then drive back to my new home in Illinois. I’d much rather be doing this in an e-flex Colorado, but my old Ranger will have to do.


  254. 254
    Aislinn Quinn

     

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    Oct 26th, 2008 (6:20 pm)

    Excited about your electric car, but totally put off with anti-Iran ads. Kind of sours the whole thing…


  255. [...] just received a message from Lyle over at GM-Volt saying that GM has decided who will be supplying the Volt’s battery (LG Chem, if you’re curious.) And what do I see, but an ad for the “Volt”… [...]


  256. 256
    K. Davis

     

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    Oct 27th, 2008 (8:26 am)

    I’m very disappointed at how different the body style is from the prototype. Instead of a sport car-like body, it now looks like a Prius!


  257. 257
    madhu

     

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    Oct 31st, 2008 (2:34 pm)

    I suggest if roof of the car is embedded with solar cells or silicon wafers, it could easily add another 400-500W of power which can be used to boost the electric motors during motion or charging the battery. It may increase the cost… but it will increase the range of teh vehicle and save some extra dollars in the long run.


  258. 258
    CS Guy

     

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    Nov 1st, 2008 (4:02 pm)

    A123 is small enough to be a takeover target for big oil.

    Look what happened to the EV1 battery? The technology was bought by Chevron (IIRC) and they haven’t made any of it available for sale. Isn’t it amazing that in 10 years that proven, working, successful technology hasn’t seen the light of day again?

    By going with a well-financed company like LG they are making sure the same thing cannot happen again.

    Let this be the lesson learned. Big Oil cares about Big Oil. Not you. Not the car makers or our economy (recent events should prove this). Not our future or environment. It’s all about the “benjamins.” And they will do ANYTHING to make sure that you stay addicted to their poison.

    Battery Electric cars are our only hope of escaping their grasp.

    =No Plug, No Sale! Ever!


  259. 259
    Dan Petit

     

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    Dec 28th, 2008 (4:28 pm)

    What can be *done* to change all levels of school/university curricula to advance far, far more time for the practical math and applied sciences (which have been long-degraded in America) helping to preserve high paying jobs or to produce many new ones?
    (Believe me, if you want greater advance-systems-training-success for the accurate diagnosis of your vehicle’s highly advanced systems, the above question should be relentlessly addressed).
    What can be *done* to help in the reduction of costing for the battery pack for the Volt, such as helping whichever battery suppliers know that additional “economies of scale”, (if raw material supplies and production capacities permit) be assured them for a far, far massive demand in their economy-of-scale for their productions, such as many more of us wanting to buy anything from high-end-cost power tools as we can today, as well as not-so-high-end tools such as very powerful flashlights, or automotive jump-boxes with all-in-one built-ins, etc., even if these products retail at a far higher retail cost?
    Sending emails to potential Home supplier Department store purchasing departments and tool company purchasing departments with requests that some products offered for sale to us be considered to be manufactured with the same battery as the Volt may utilize (again, keeping in mind available capacities in our hopes/expectations), that “spin-off-product” production of the cells may be of indirect assistance in the lowering of the cost of the Volt. An industry-standard-format cell (although maybe of differing chemistries if need be) may easily help reduce production costs. These are things we can * do * *now* if we can be assured they may be helpful to some of the concerns in the postings here.
    Dan Petit Austin, TX


  260. 260
    Jason

     

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    Jul 20th, 2009 (1:30 am)

    I bought Ridgid R0724B 21053 71/4-Inch by 24-tooth Framing Saw Blade at this website http://www.dealsshoppie.com/product/search.php?ID=B001W0ZIGI&product=Ridgid+R0724B+21053+71/4-Inch+by+24-tooth+Framing+Saw+Blade. There were reviews with an average rating of . These ratings seem to be accurate as I too agree with their views after buying the product.