A key unique element in the Chevy Volt is the liquid-cooling system for the lithium ion battery pack. It is critically important for maintaining the battery cells close to their ideal operating (room) temperature.
Although which company has gotten the actual pack contract has not been made public yet, LG Chem/CPI or A123/Conti, GM has internally decided on the supplier.
Today the word is out that Buehler Motor Inc., will be announcing a $50 million multi-year deal to supply water pumps to GM for the Chevy Volt extended-range electric vehicle. The North Carolina firm will provide the 12 watt and 50 watt pumps that will circulate coolant thorough the Volt’s subsystems.
Indeed many subsystems within the vehicle had to be custom designed for the car’s unique functioning. As an example, the Volt’s radiator is thicker than normal to accommodate the additional needs of the battery packs.
Beuhler and GM have been working together since mid-2007.
…Another small step towards oil independence.
Source (Detroit News)
This entry was posted on Monday, October 20th, 2008 at 6:23 am and is filed under Engineering, Production. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:28 am)Not being a mechanic, I’m not sure why they need a special water pump for the ICE in this car. I was under the impression that it is an “off the shelf” 4 cylinder engine.
To my knowledge, a water pump is not electric in a car. Am I wrong?
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:50 am)These water pumps are for the batteries not the motor. The motor will have the usual water pump like any other 4 cyl motor. Obviously the expect a large amount of heat from the batteries and they need their own cooling system to keep in check.
I am not 100% sure but I think this will be the first time a electric water pump will be used in a OEM application. There are a few aftermarket units for V8s. As far as why it would be electric, they need the water pumps to run if the motor is not. If the extra water pumps are on the motor and the motor is not running the pumps will not be moving and fluids to cool the battery pack.
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:51 am)#1 Rashid – Well, I assume they need a new water pump design for the battery pack cooling, since that is a new system. The battery itself will produce heat when discharging and recharging. So this isn’t just the ICE we are talking about here. And then when you consider that they need a new pump design for the battery pack, it makes sense to have the ICE cooling pump be of similar design and from the same supplier for more streamlined manufacturing and supply.
But that’s just my guess.
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:54 am)Maybe they intend to liquid cool the battery while the car is parked on a blacktop lot on a hot Florida 105° day. Thus the need for a solar panel roof which hopefully becomes standard equipment. Also let’s not forget the ICE is not always on while the car is moving or stuck on a hot freeway.
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:59 am)J Man #2
Jim in PA #3
Thanks guys for the explanation.
I just assumed that the batteries would be air cooled as the car
moves through the air. I wasn’t thinking they would need to be liquid cooled.
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:08 am)I would suspect that these pumps are for both the batteries and the ICE. One pump would circulate coolant through the batteries and power electronics, while the other would circulate coolant through the ICE.
Since the Volt will not have an engine (ICE) driven power steering pump, engine driven AC, engine driven alternator, or otherwise, it would seem senseless to have a drive pulley just for a coolant pump.
Therefore, I suspect the second pump is for the ICE. This pump would only come on when the ICE was running. Thus, the ICE will have no belt drives.
At 12 watts, the small pump can circulate about 4 or 5 gallons per minute with low pressure drop (about 5 psi). I would expect this to operate on a continous basis (when the car is on) to cool the batteries/electronics. The large 50 watt unit would be utilized when the ICE was in operation.
Just my speculation.
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:08 am)Yes,the engine is a basic off the shelf 4 cylinder engine but it is easy to understand that this engine will have many modifications. Yes, water pumps are usually not electric but the wattage on this new pump is so low that it will probably take less energy to cool whatever than what a mechanical pump could do. This pump could end up like what has happened with power steering. That is… switching from mechanical to electric to gain better gas mileage.
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:19 am)I have no idea really what function this will play in the car, and most days I couldn’t care less about something I really didn’t even know needed to be produced, but this is a third party contract…and that is a fantastic thing.
/nothing bad to say, hehe….have a good one
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:29 am)I have used similar pumps in industrial applications. They can be turned ‘on’ all the time. A thermostat controlled outlet valve allows a free spinning impeller to provide flow as needed. The system will continue to function (for years) as long as the line is free from foreign matter and scale. Very easy to repair when needed.
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:48 am)The pump is “critically important for maintaining the battery cells close to their ideal operating (room) temperature.” Didn’t you just report last week that the battery packs without pumps were not self heating more than a couple degrees?
I’d say it’s more “critically important” to cool the motor & inverter!!!
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:51 am)#4 Nelson
Maybe they intend to liquid cool the battery while the car is parked on a blacktop lot on a hot Florida 105° day. Thus the need for a solar panel roof which hopefully becomes standard equipment. Also let’s not forget the ICE is not always on while the car is moving or stuck on a hot freeway.
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I don’t think they will do liquid cooling while the car is parked, during the day. When the battery is not charging or discharging, it is not generating heat, so the battery should not get much hotter than the 105 ambient temperature. In addition, at 105 degree ambient, the coolant and the radiator will all be at 105 degrees, the same as the battery, so you would not get cooling effect anyway.
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:58 am)#4 Nelson Says: “Maybe they intend to liquid cool the battery while the car is parked on a blacktop lot on a hot Florida 105° day. Thus the need for a solar panel roof which hopefully becomes standard equipment.”
————————————————————————————–
The solar roof will be an option, and not cheap – probably around $4000. Solar cells are expensive.
As for cooling the battery when the Volt is parked on a blacktop lot, I don’t believe this is an issue, since the blacktop under the car will be shaded by the car itself.
The Volt solar roof option will be used to keep the inside of the car cool when parked on hot days. I’m pretty sure GM said the solar cells won’t charge the battery. So the solar roof is a comfort feature.
As a comfort feature, I believe the Volt solar roof is wasteful. The energy required to make solar cells is very high. Most solar panels have an energy break even period of 2 years. In other words, it takes 2 years before solar cells produce enough energy to offset the amount of energy required to manufacture them. Since the Volt’s solar roof option won’t help power the car, then the 2 years worth of energy required to manufacture the solar cells won’t be offset by anything. This means that the Volt solar roof option will be an energy wasting comfort feature.
Right now there seems to be an automatic knee-jerk reaction where people think anything with solars cells is green. In the case of car roof solar cells, the reality is quite the reverse.
Now if someone wants the comfort feature, doesn’t mind the waste of energy, and has the $4000 extra to spend, then the Volt solar roof option makes sense. But if someone buys a car solar roof option to show their green credentials, it will end up backfiring on them once people realize how much energy they waste.
Bottom line: Solar panels belong on home roofs, not car roofs.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:05 am)Maybe when the announcement is made, we can find out how many pumps and how many years and back calculate the number of cars to be produced based on this contract being the sole provider.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:15 am)#6 BillR Says: “Since the Volt will not have an engine (ICE) driven power steering pump, engine driven AC, engine driven alternator, or otherwise, it would seem senseless to have a drive pulley just for a coolant pump… I suspect the second pump is for the ICE. This pump would only come on when the ICE was running. Thus, the ICE will have no belt drives… Just my speculation.”
————————————————————————————–
Interesting observation…
Yes, it might make sense not to bother with pulleys and belts for just the water pump. It could be cheaper in the end.
It would certainly be nice not to have to check belt wear from a servicing point of view. This would probably make the ICE more reliable. It would also probably cut down on engine noise somewhat as well. So this issue would definitely have some impact on the customer.
Lyle, could you ask if the Volt’s ICE will have any belts?
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:15 am)hi Van #13,
I feel a low estimate is 300,000 units.
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:20 am)I did see where Buehler has done business with Continental before. I wonder if that connection tells us who may be putting the pack including its cooling system together?
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:22 am)10. Joshua Bretz,
First rule of GM-Volt.com Club:
Do not mention overly optimistic and vague statements from last week when they seem to be contradicted this week.
Second rule:
Believe unquestioningly the optimistic and vague statements from next week.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:27 am)#17 GXT,
LOL
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:31 am)#17 GXT
10. Joshua Bretz,
First rule of GM-Volt.com Club:
Do not mention overly optimistic and vague statements from last week when they seem to be contradicted this week.
Second rule:
Believe unquestioningly the optimistic and vague statements from next week.
———————————————————–
Thanks for the chuckle GXT
+1
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:37 am)Does anybody know the number of “EREV only” parts that the Volt will require? Hopefully, GM is keeping the number to a minimum.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:42 am)GXT #17. That was great! LOL
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:43 am)Let’s not forget that the coolant that circulates the battery in the Volt has double duty. It will also warm the battery on very cold days since a cold batt will do a number on AER. The question is just how will the coolant circulate? If it’s supposed to cool the batts. on a hot day when you’re in RE mode you’ve got a lot of hot coolant coming from the engine block. In winter this would be fine, and maybe there will be a sophisticated flow control valve that won’t allow it to run through the block when the battery needs cooling.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:56 am)Many, if not all of us think old school blue solar cells. Check these out.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/03/10/printable-solar-cells-demonstrated/
Cheap solar cells are about here.
Looks like the batteries are a heat source for use to warm the interior or windows. I hope they design it with 2 pumps. I would want a back up on a battery this expensive/critical component.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:59 am)#2
It’s not the first electric water pump by an OEM (I’m assuming you mean automotive applications). The BMW N52 engine was the first with an electric water pump, introduced 2004, used in the 3 series, 5 series, the Z4, the X3 and the X5.
Celestar
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:02 am)#23
Cheap solar cells are about here.
————————————————————————
I have been reading the statement every year since 1970.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:19 am)The BMW N52 engine was the first with an electric water pump, introduced 2004
_________________________________________
I remember back in 2001, when newbies were asking those that had been driving their Prius for awhile what that clicking sound was when stopped at a light or drive-thru. The answer was the electric water pump shutting off.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:25 am)The Toyota hybrid uses liquid cooling for the electric traction motor and controler, it has separate radiators for the ICE & electricals. The traction battery is air cooled and has a thermostaticaly controled fan. The electrical systems liquid cooling and has an electric pump similarly controled. We expect GM to use quality components with excellent longevity.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:30 am)Will there be two seperate cooling systems, one for the engine and one for the battery, or will they be a single integrated system with 2 seperate loops.
Electric pumps use less power than belt driven pumps because they’re not always on. Electric pumps only get turned on when needed while belt driven pumps always have the losses from the belt and turning the drive.
Seperate cooling systems is going to increase maintenance costs and aquisition costs. Drat. Another “wish” for V2.0. Air cooled batteries. Maybe possible with a solid state capacitor for the rapid charge/discharge cycles.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:42 am)# 24 Celestar:
I think VW trumps BMW. Not sure of the year it was introduced, but the New Beetle Turbo (1.8) has an electric waterpump that runs for a few minutes after you turn the car off. It circulates coolant and is only on the beetle even though other VW’s have the same engine configuration. I think it’s to make up for the Beetle’s cramped and virtually grille-less front. My 2002 Turbo S has one.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:46 am)If it is critically important for maintaining the battery cells close to their ideal operating (room) temperature, what happens when the Volt sits stored all summer in a Phoenix (average high is above 100) parking lot? Will the cooling system kick in even when nobody is driving the car?
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:25 am)10 Joshua Bretz: Didn’t you just report last week that the battery packs without pumps were not self heating more than a couple degrees? I’d say it’s more “critically important” to cool the motor & inverter!!!
It makes sense to me that a small, hard-working small inverter would get hotter than a large battery.
It’s also nice that the part is supplied in-country to help build the economy rather than pumping money overseas (no pun intended).
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:31 am)Oh, I heard a commercial on NPR this morning for the Volt.
It was about a 10 second commercial and mentioned 40 miles before using any gas.
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:33 am)31 Gary says,
It’s also nice that the part is supplied in-country to help build the economy rather than pumping money overseas (no pun intended).
——————————-
Yup. I don’t know how it helps our economy by sending jobs and money overseas. In the end, I think that strategy backfires on us. But then again, I’m not an economist.
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:36 am)23 Vincent says,
Cheap solar cells are about here.
————
I hope so. But when I hear things like this, I think of EESTOR.
These inventions are almost here, but never show up in the end.
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:55 am)23 Vincent says,
Cheap solar cells are about here.
————
#34 Rashiid
I hope so. But when I hear things like this, I think of EESTOR.
These inventions are almost here, but never show up in the end.
—————–
I guess technically ‘cheap solar’ is here, but only if you are a huge government contractor type, so I don’t think it is quite as bad as EESTOR, heh.
Personally, I’ve been waiting/trying to acquire ‘cheap solar’ going on 4 years now, money on the table…and a decent size order to boot, basically gets me nowhere. Some of the distributors of traditional paneling have tried to acquire some product as well for resale (and we are talking in the several mW range), with no luck.
I’d say it is still a far ways off before a ‘retail’ customer gets their hands on it. I put it in the category of, ‘I’ll believe it, when I see it”
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:05 am)Of more interest is what the coolant circulation system looks like. Do they use heated water from the ICE to heat the batteries and visaversa? Does the water mix between the battery and ICE cooling systems and valve to different cooling sections of the radiator when different heating/cooling requirements are required or are they separate coils in the radiator like an oil cooler. Or do they have two separate radiators with the battery section necessarily in front. It appears to me that it would be good to keep the ICE warmed up from battery heat if this heat is available. I would expect the radiator fan to be electric but the ICE water pump could as well be driven by the engine. It could be gear driven since there is no need for a serpentine belt to drive other auxilliaries and of course it would only run then when the ICE was running.
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:13 am)Martin Eberhard has found that the water pump on his Tesla Roadster is using an astonishing amount of electricity while his car is parked. In fact, fully 22% of the energy consumed by his vehicle happens when his car is parked. See the article at: www teslafounders com.
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:16 am)Heck the one on the left looks like the one I put on my motorhome.
I turn it on when I shut down the motorhome to keep it from boiling over after a hard pull.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=15573
Take Care
Arch
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:31 am)#36 Xylon
I had similar questions in #28. After thinking about it longer, I suspect the two cooling systems are integrated because, when the weather is extremely cold, the ICE is going to heat up the batteries. A simple way of doing that would be for a single cooling system which can work in reverse as a battery heating system.
Another way would be to place PCB’s in the battery and they run off the generator, but this would require an additional system whereas running the radiator system in reverse would require almost no additional work.
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:32 am)“I just assumed that the batteries would be air cooled as the car
moves through the air. I wasn’t thinking they would need to be liquid cooled.”
Technically, they are cooled by the air moving past, just not directly
.
They’re using water to convey that cooling ability into the battery pack. It will still have a radiator to exchange heat to the air as it moves past, by the sounds of the description above.
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:32 am)#12 Dave G. Your solar analysis is very biased. Firstly, you just took a guess at the $4000 figure. You think someone would pay $4000 just to cool the interior? That’s stupid. I love solar and even I would not pay for that. If I would not buy the option, nobody would (unless they were ignorant beyond belief. However, I would let my disgust be known here at least. If any customer was to do 1 minute of research on the Volt’s solar option here at the most popular Volt website then they would not be ignorant.
However, I have to say that I disagree with your logic as well but will wait until they have the actual functionality and cost before I say more. Besides, didn’t Mr. Lutz say it would take 10 days to charge the battery? Yes, he did say that. For that to happen the solar cell must be connected to the battery. Am I wrong or are you wrong?
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:40 am)Inexpensive solar panel manufacturing has been going on for at least a year now. You won’t see the cheap prices yet because demand far outstrips supply. That growth in solar demand is in the double digits. Thus, it will just take time. Could be a long time or even next year. Nobody knows because there are so many variables.
No, not like EEscam – who don’t even have a prototype. Inexpensive solar is being installed as we speak. It’s just that the price will not reflect the manufacturing cost for a while. Big difference people!
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:05 pm)Based on the statement about the “thicker” radiator, apparently indicating a increase in capacity to accommodate cooling the battery as well as the ICE, it appears there will be a common coolant system sharing the same radiator, but having two pumped loops, one for the ICE and one for the battery, each with its own pump.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:16 pm)Why does everyone keep saying it takes years for panels to make enough energy to offset their cost? That hasn’t been true in years.
On a more practical note, the solar roof does not actually have to be expensive, I have a small semi-portable solar array that in theory I could put on the roof of my cutlass (I mean it’s small enough, not that it’s a good idea) and it handles a bank of three deep-cycle batteries. I use it and a heavy-duty inverter as a substitute for a backup generator. Works great, uses no fuel. So long as the sun doesn’t blow up my freezer will never defrost in a two-week long outage.
It cost less then $400, and in the time I’ve had it, I would have spent almost $500 in gasoline during various problems. It obviously does well. Now, the Volt roof will obviously be more, as it’s a custom job, but a panel of that size is not necessarily a gold-eater.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:22 pm)Inexpensive solar is being installed as we speak. It’s just that the price will not reflect the manufacturing cost for a while. Big difference people!>
————-
Therefore, cheap solar is not here yet. Just like what was said above.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:31 pm)#45 Rashiid (me)
I should have added this. If I’m wrong about cheap solar, please tell me where I can buy a cheap solar system that will power my house.
I would like to purchase it today.
Oh wait. They’re not available yet.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:42 pm)Way off topic:
Plug-in Mini Cooper can travel 150 miles per 2.5 hour charge.
Top speed of 95MPH and 0-62 in 8.5 seconds. No ICE.
This car would work perfectly for me except it is a two seater and
the cost is $850 per month lease only. No option to buy.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:49 pm)Forget about the water pumps its just a way for Lyle to keep us talking, and thank you Lyle for that. I wish Lyle would find more interesting articles on the Volt while we are all waiting for it. 2yrs wow
But cheap solar is what we all want, that is something to talk about.
What I want to see is for GM to “GET ME A VOLT” I’ve got think about a new car pretty soon and I don’t want a golf cart or a gas car
NO PLUG NO SALE (i hope) NO WAY =D——-$00.00
.
Oct 20th, 2008 (12:59 pm)Well they’re cute little buggers, I’ll give them that. $50 million worth of water pumps sounds like they’re planning on making quite a few Volts. If the 50 watt version cools the ICE, it looks like they might save quite a bit of weight vs. a conventional belt driven mechanical pump. The drag race guys use aftermarket electric water pumps so that they can turn them off to save the horsepower losses of turning them during their runs. Maybe the ICE pump could work off a thermostat and only come on when needed, thus saving a bit of fuel?
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:11 pm)There are simply way too many people that think solar energy is pollution “free”. That is NOT the case. You just have not heard of its warts…YET.
First, the solar cell and the better it is, will make so-called “thermal pollution”, Worse.
Solar cells are designed to absorb as much of the incident energy as possible. And convert it to electrical energy which can be sucked off and sent elsewhere, to do work. When the electricity is used elsewhere, it gives up its electrical energy as motion and Heat.
To do its job, a solar cell has a very low reflectivity, or “Albedo”, much less reflective than the Earth as a whole. The Earth’s average reflectance or Albedo is 31%. A scientific way of saying that is 31% of the incoming solar energy from sunlight is reflected back to space, and is not absorbed to heat the Earth, at all.
A solar cell has a reflectance, or Albedo of of around a few percent at most. And the “better” it is in converting energy, the less it reflects. As an active device, the generated electricity does not stay in or on the solar cell to come into thermal equilibrium. It is actively piped off in a circuit to do work. So some solar cells approach effectively “below zero” reflectance.
If you are trying to cool something, such as a car, you don’t paint it black. But solar cells when operating, are really “Blacker than the darkest Black”.
Widespread use of solar cells would be in effect “painting the Earth Blacker than Black”. The Earth then absorbs more energy then it naturally does, raising the temperature. The excess energy absorbed is called, “Thermal Pollution”.
Solar cells generate lots of it. Usually about 90% more than what is useful energy; only 10-12% that is first converted into electricity, and then work, and Heat.
When you think of a nucler plant those large cooling towers use water to cool the plant only remove about 60% of the energy thought of as Thermal Pollution. At only 10% efficiency, a solar cell is 50% worse, generating 90% waste heat, much of which would never have been on the Earth at all, if the solar cell had never been built.
If you want to fight Global Warming, do you want to fight that Global Warming by making it worse? And contributing to the Warming of the Earth, by using solar cells?
The second reason that solar cells are a usual waste, is that they consume lots of energy to make; that takes a long time to recover, if ever. It’s like taking a barrel of oil, wasting a major portion to make H2, in a refinery and generating pollution, and then conveerting the H2 to electricty in a Fuel cell vehicle at 40% conversion efficiency. Instead of using a much simpler refining process that wastes much less oil, and then consuming it at 20%-25% efficiency, in a gasoline ICE, or 30-35% in a diesel ICE? The marginal improvment is not worth the trouble, overall.
Some FCEV affcionados, advocate for FCEVs because they are zero pollution vehicles. The “clean zero pollution” of the FCEV is a myth. H2O out the tailpipe is the worst GHG. Electricity is much better.
CARB, hardly a proponent of the ICE, now rates 56 car models available for sale to the public in the Model year 2008 run, as being PZEV or AT-PZEV vehicles. That means there is “zero pollution” from these vehicles in use, or parked, and probably a lot less too than hydrogen, in making the fuel for them too. Nor is it easy to rate a parked FCEV as a ZEV, because Hydrogen fuel always escapes. It is impossible to contain.
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:13 pm)#49 noel park
Year 1: 10k Volts
Year 2: 60k Volts
Year 3: 100k Volts
That adds up to 170k Volts. $50M divided by 170k Volt pumps equals about $300 per pump. I know, it is a rough calc. But $300 per pump seems within reason. So, it doesn’t sound like they are planning on making more Volts than we, collectively, expect.
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:14 pm)#47 Rashiid
Way off topic:
Plug-in Mini Cooper can travel 150 miles per 2.5 hour charge.
Top speed of 95MPH and 0-62 in 8.5 seconds. No ICE.
This car would work perfectly for me except it is a two seater and
the cost is $850 per month lease only. No option to buy
—————————————————————-
Well, if you are a resident of California, New Jersey or New York, you can sign up now to get the info on the application process and get the ball rolling.
Hey doesn’t hurt!
Sign/application up for the Mini E, on its own live site:
http://www.minispace.com/en_us/projects/electric-mini-e/
/your welcome, lol
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:21 pm)Other random jottings.
This should go in the GM/Chrsyler merge thread, but it is kind of old and won’t get many eyeballs.
The Wall Street Journal agrees with me that GM doesn’t have the cash needed to get the deal off the ground…and that Fritz Henderson (the future CEO), is working hard to try to put it together.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122447134901349421.html (sub)
The question maybe if Cerberus itself is willing to fund the whole thing if they continue to come up short.
I picked this article off TAC before the WSJ, and they have some editorital comments (like only they can, hehe), so I should link them here as well:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-lacks-investors-to-fund-chrysler-merger-deal/
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:22 pm)#50 stas peterson,
So what is the answer?
Can’t use solar because of what you stated above.
Can’t use wind because it is very unreliable.
Can’t use Nuclear because of the waste product.
Can’t use oil and gas because of the pollution, OPEC, etc.
I ask you, what the hell is left?
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:35 pm)#54 Rashiid Amul
I think stas peterson’s thesis needs a little peer review before we accept it as plausible. Be patient, I suspect challenges are forthcoming.
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:44 pm)55 ThombDbhomb ,
Thanks.
I’m looking forward to reading it.
Oct 20th, 2008 (1:52 pm)Each part is one step closer.
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:00 pm)There are several Generation IV nuclear reactors that use the waste of the previous reactors as fuel. They can produce both electricity and hydrogen.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf77.html
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:00 pm)#54 Rashiid Amul
“I ask you, what the hell is left?”
Don’t worry, I’m working on a perpetual motion machine. No negatives to it whatsoever. I’ll let you know when I work the final design out…
/In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!!
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:15 pm)I just read where Zenn is going to make a highway speed electric car, using EEstor’s ultacapacitor. If EEstor is finally going to unmask their ultracapacitor and it works, GM had better get on the badwagon or be left out of the party. See this link: http://www.cleantech.com/news/2644/zenn-gearing-up-for-eestor-powered-car
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:49 pm)Rashiid Amul,
Don’t worry too much. Installing enough solar to power the world will probably have a smaller effect on net energy absorbtion than all of the blacktop roadways already laid.
Don’t order your Volt in black either
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:54 pm)I think stas is over complicating things. So we crank up the temp of the earth a few degrees. Just crank the A/C up a couple notches and it all equals out. Problem solved.
Oct 20th, 2008 (2:59 pm)Rashiid:
I got mine at Tractor Supply (agricultural supply store, they also carry wind turbines). They carry several models, but you have to understand that with solar, ANY solar, you can’t just leave every light in the house on at once and expect good results. We use it as our backup, and with good success, by using the inverter for heavy stuff like the freezer, and from there we’ve used 12-volt equipment to avoid the power loss conversion.
Your mileage may vary, but we’ve even converted an off-grid trailer entirely to solar, with only an 80-watt panel and the previously mentioned deep-cycle cells and 12-volt equipment. I’m very happy.
It’s realistically no different then what people are having to do now with their cars, making sure they combine trips. In my case I simply run my heavier stuff more during the day, so the battery is not being as heavily used at night. We’re now looking to convert the well to a 12-volt submersible pump, to replace the power-hogging deep-jet.
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:13 pm)Dave G #12
You are right with the exception of net energy gain. You will be actually repaid in terms of the energy required to produce the solar cells. However, economically you would need to drive the car for over forty years to regain the investment at the dollars that you estimated, not including the time value of money and opportunity costs. In terms of overall energy savings, someone may be better off weather stripping the bottom of their garage door for about twenty bucks instead of spending 4k on car-top solar.
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:23 pm)#50 stas peterson
If you want to fight Global Warming, do you want to fight that Global Warming by making it worse? And contributing to the Warming of the Earth, by using solar cells?
Widespread use of solar cells would be in effect “painting the Earth Blacker than Black”.
The second reason that solar cells are a usual waste, is that they consume lots of energy to make; that takes a long time to recover, if ever.
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#55 ThombDbhomb
I think stas peterson’s thesis needs a little peer review before we accept it as plausible. Be patient, I suspect challenges are forthcoming.
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/I’m your huckleberry!
Your talking about the effects of reflectivity on solar energy? I realize the percentage is bad on a 1 for 1 basis to other compounds, solar is alot worse than just about anything, but really? Scale….look into it.
Why don’t you express that as a proportional ‘thermal pollution’ to EVERY roads and EVERY rooftop inthe world? Right now, with the amount of solar infrastructure we already have, it would take a million years to get the same effect as 1 day of thermal pollution of oil based flattops and shingles.
Your second point — solar consumes too much energy to produce, and my never recover that value over its lifespan:
The amount of energy to produce a 5×3 200w panel is nothing compared to its likely output of the average lifespan of 25 years
7,304x 4.5kWh/m2/dayx 200w= 6.5mW
Your going to have to go along way to prove one panel uses the equivalent of 6.5mW
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:24 pm)Mini E announced.
They state 150 miles per charge……(if they can get that, why’s the Volt still stuck at 40 ?)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,441442,00.html
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:29 pm)#66 Brian
Mini E announced.
They state 150 miles per charge……(if they can get that, why’s the Volt still stuck at 40 ?)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,441442,00.html
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/check my post in #52
…it has its own site and you can attempt to get your application in
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:38 pm)Stas
Look at the overall energy balance. Thermal conversion from solar is not just tiny, it’s orders of magnitude below miniscule w.r.t. overall planet scale thermodynamics. It is estimated that more energy than the entire world currently uses for domestic and industrial uses combined could be generated by covering 1% of the earths surface with solar panels at today’s relatively low (and improving ) efficiencies.
Even if sunlight hits trees plants water surfaces etc. that heat is distributed though the earths thermodynamic balancing. The energy does not disappear. I think you can see that overall the direct thermal affects of solar panels would be small, small, small except in their ability to reduce reliance on greenhouse gas generating processes.
In other words this is not new heat generated by panels but is derived from normal solar gain. And it is from a tiny portion of the earths reflective surfaces. If there is a minuscule gain from solar radiation that would be say for instance , usually reflected into space (highly unlikely), that will be more than made up by a reduction of greenhouse gasses.
RELAX, the oceans will fill up with non degradable plastic trash and smother out all life forms long, long before heat gain from solar panels could ever make a bit of difference.
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:44 pm)The water pump contract is interesting, but not as the battery contract will be. I can not understand just why they continue to withhold that information. Does anyone have any information as to the cause of the hold up?
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:45 pm)Rashiid Amul #34
“These inventions are almost here, but never show up in the end.”
*** *** ***
Yup, reminds me of fool cells.
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:46 pm)Texas #42
They are making cheaper car audio units now too, but have you ever seen the prices for an upgrade from the standard OEM units for new cars. Solar will be an upgraded premium item with all of the usual explanations for it’s (exorbitant ?) price.
Oct 20th, 2008 (3:57 pm)Grant,
“Why does everyone keep saying it takes years for panels to make enough energy to offset their cost?”
Cost varies, as does time needed to recover initial dollar costs. Time for recovering the energy to manufacture roof mounted home solar panels is about 1.5 to 2 years. Can’t cite the study right now (lazy)
Oct 20th, 2008 (4:11 pm)Noel Park #49
Take a look at o. jeffs post at # 37; also, I went to a wind energy class in Palmdale, do you ever get to the LA County Raceway?
This post veered into a new direction quickly, I ‘m surprised folks aren’t mentioning that electric pumps, steering etc. set the Volt apart from typical ICE design by reducing parasitic losses and pushing towards absolute efficiencies instead of using belts to drive mechanical systems.
Oct 20th, 2008 (4:35 pm)#68 Jeffhre
RELAX, the oceans will fill up with non degradable plastic trash and smother out all life forms long, long before heat gain from solar panels could ever make a bit of difference.
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Your really going to bum out the board about that.
Whatever you do…don’t research the North Pacific Gyre, lol.
Don’t do it.
Don’t read down any farther.
Ok, you asked for it…you could have lived in oblivion
10 million square KMs of garbage.
” As I gazed from the deck at the surface of what ought to have been a pristine ocean, I was confronted, as far as the eye could see, with the sight of plastic. It seemed unbelievable, but I never found a clear spot. In the week it took to cross the subtropical high, no matter what time of day I looked, plastic debris was floating everywhere: bottles, bottle caps, wrappers, fragments.”
—Charles Moore, Across the Pacific Ocean, plastics, plastics, everywhere, natural history magazine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-that-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html
/human nature sucks
Oct 20th, 2008 (4:38 pm)Hi ThombDbhomb #51,
The consumer can buy a similar 1/4 HP pump for $240. GM should be able to get a price of about $160-$170 per pump. And GM not only needs to order parts for the Volt production line. They need 1% replacement parts for the warehouse shelf.
Total contract of $50,000,000 / $165 per pump = 303,000 units
This figure sounds right to me. I believe we have seen production estimate figures of ’10,000 Volt in year one’. With the capacity to produce ‘as-many-as 100,000 per year’ thereafter. A five year forward looking contract sounds right to me.
year 1 10,000
year 2 50,000
year 3 80,000
year 4 90,000
year 5 70,000
BTW: The flow rate on these small pumps will surprise you. A 1/4 HP with a 3/8″ exit hose will easily provide enough flow to wash a car. The impeller is not directly connected to the electric motor. It spins freely in the slippery coolant and is driven by a rotating exterior magnet. This produces no strain on the electric motor and very little wear over 10 years. And they are also very quiet.
$240 (current cost for1/4 HP ~ available now)
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/pump-240.jpg
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (5:08 pm)Just saw this…
Plug-in Mini Cooper ready to charge
BMW will release a test fleet of electrically-powered Mini’s around New York and Los Angeles early next year.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.electric_mini_cooper/index.html
“For this test fleet of vehicles, BMW will reimburse customers for the cost of charging. But at a monthly cost of $850, driving the Mini E will not be cheap.”
are they kidding me?? who do they think they are selling this to? BMW drivers?? i mean who else would over pay by that much? And it’s only a 2 seater…
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:04 pm)I know this is changing the subject but, I just pictures of the 2009 Camaro. It wouldn’t be very difficult to make a 4 door out of it, and you have a Chevy Volt very close to the concept car. Hmmm, and GM said it couldn’t done. Here’s the link.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/images2/2009-Chevrolet-Camaro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/%3Fp%3D72&h=268&w=525&sz=24&tbnid=1rmioJBqRyoJ::&tbnh=67&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3D2009%2Bchevrolet%2Bcamaro&hl=en&usg=__HVXuhaFZLKoqD7eNPi5Z63nhEZY=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:30 pm)#73 Jeffhre:
I haven’t been to LACR for years. I did a 14.35 there in my ’66 Corvette on reproduction redline tires on 5.5″ rims, LOL. I think that “corrects” into the 13s at sea level. I am arguably the world’s worst drag racer. Lift off the gas and shift like Granny, LMAO.
It was box stock and all original, so you really don’t want to blow it up at the drags! If that sounds like an excuse, I guess I have to plead guilty. Plus, we drove it to the track, and we didn’t have any other way to get home, hahaha.
Oct 20th, 2008 (6:38 pm)#75 Dave K.
Buehler Motor Inc. won’t make the pumps for free. They need to realize a profit. To refine your calc, you need to reduce the $50M accordingly:
($50,000,000 minus Buehler Motor Inc.’s piece of the action) / $165 per pump = ? units
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:18 pm)Statik,
“7,304x 4.5kWh/m2/dayx 200w= 6.5mW
Your going to have to go along way to prove one panel uses the equivalent of 6.5mW”
=================
This is extremely picky but in engineering its all about the units. When describing power, lower case “m” denotes “milli”, while upper case “M” denotes “mega”.
So 6.5mW is equivalent to the electrical energy of an ant farting. Now 6.5 MW is serious power.
Sorry for the anal retentive comment….lol. (No DRE here…)
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:26 pm)Either those are expensive water pumps, or GM plans on making a lot of Volts.
Oct 20th, 2008 (7:34 pm)Hi ThombDbhomb # 79,
We all know how deals work. It’s likely that GM asked for a good deal on supply costs for offering a ‘most preferred vendor’ status later.
Or you may be right…we need to reduce estimates by 10%. A quarter million Volts on the road in 5 years is still a good thing.
We can already see what it happening world wide. By big oil having greedily raised the cost of pump gas to $4 a gallon, they have in effect shot themselves in the foot.
GM production is offering a “people’s” car with a Chevy sedan. Cooper is offering a chic upper-middle income two seater. Tesla owns the yacht club crowd. And Toyota is sticking with the micro 1.0L car for modest buyers and campus students.
I feel the Prius will find itself in no mans land with the 09′ offering. I can think of 20 vehicles I would purchase before going to a Prius dealership. For the cost of a Prius ($26,000) I’ll take a Malibu with 1000 gallons of gasoline savings. You can drive a new Malibu for two years and come out ahead on cost. Why suffer? Why send all of our money to Asia?
The big picture adds up to a ZERO for big oil and I for one am not teary eyed about it.
The Volt lurks… http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/volt%2009-26%20023.jpg
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:14 pm)Why send all of our money to Asia?
______________________________________
So retooling in Mississippi will proceed rapidly.
Everyone wins, including GM, when high-volume production of hybrids grows domestically.
Oct 20th, 2008 (8:43 pm)From my understanding, each vehicle will need 2 of these pumps, one at 12 volts and one at 50 volts. So the $50,000,000 contract will on supply about 150,000 units (assuming a price of $165 per unit)
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:20 pm)hi john1701a # 83 & Peter M # 84,
john, my main point in post #82 is that for comfort, pride in ownership, and National loyalty I prefer a domestic rather than funding TMC in Aichi Nagoya, Japan.
Peter M, you may be correct on the revised estimate. I feel that 150,000 units over 5 years will not support consumer demand. And GM has mentioned a potential manufacture rate of “up to 100,000 units per year”. Bob Lutz has said that the production Volt, as you see it now, will be the style GM goes with for several years. Bob said this after being asked an R&D/production question concerning Volt #2.
But I understand you both. I’m overly optimistic and stubbornly American.
NDRENS
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:40 pm)#73 Jeffhre
Since you asked, I mentioned the parasitic drag in #28, though you summed it up more succintly. On the Boeing 787 the parasitic losses from hydraulics was one of the reasons they’ve moved to a mostly electric architecture. I like #75 DaveK’s extra blurb about how the motors work. Quiet and reliable. I like the ‘sound’ of that.
I suppose there won’t be a thermostat like on traditional cars. Usually, the water pump maintains a constant pressure against the thermostat which opens once the temperature is high enough. With the Volt, I suppose there will be a temperature gauge in the fluid which will tell the pump when to turn on and off. 1 gauge for the engine and one for the battery.
Oct 20th, 2008 (9:45 pm)About Electrovaya Inc.
Electrovaya (TSX: EFL: 12.91, -0.45, -3.36%) is a world leader in the design, development and manufacture of its proprietary Lithium Ion SuperPolymer(R: 45.55, +1.46, +3.31%) battery systems. Electrovaya’s mission is to accelerate clean transportation as a commercial reality with its advanced power systems for all classes of zero-emission electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Electrovaya also offers battery-related consumer products primarily focused on the healthcare market. For more information about the Company and its products, please visit our website at http://www.electrovaya.com.
Take Care
Arch
Oct 20th, 2008 (10:53 pm)hi Cautious Fan # 86,
Thanks for the mention of my motor ‘blurb’ of post # 72. I am not saying this is exactly what the Volt will use, just saying that I am familiar with this type of motor/pump system.
My experience is with pumping cooling and heating fluids to molding machines and plastics extrusion machines. The heat range I have worked with is as low as 50 degrees F and as high as 180 degrees F. I have worked with water as well as ethylene glycol systems.
As far as batteries go, I believe the problem is not that a battery gets too cold or too hot. It’s that the life of a battery lessens when charged “hot”. The Volt cooling system will most likely focus on pre-charge temperature control. A ‘cold’ battery should be fine and not require pre-heating. Perhaps the first 30 seconds of time during garage plug-in (post depletion point ~ ‘hot’) will be battery temp adjustment. Seems easy enough.
Thanks to Lyle and to all here for your comments. It’s a long way to the delivery of the Volt and it’s fun to talk about it beforehand.
=D~
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:04 pm)Cautious Fan #86
“I suppose there won’t be a thermostat like on traditional cars. Usually, the water pump maintains a constant pressure against the thermostat which opens once the temperature is high enough.”
*** *** ***
Actually it’s a misconception that the t-stat opens and that’s all there is to it. Actually on any car the thermostat opens and closes many many times to regulate temperature regardless of whether or not you’re in Green Bay in winter, or Tampa in summer.
The BMS and TMS related to the Volt’s batt. pack will be probably be quite a bit more sophisticated. Since GM hasn’t said, we don’t know and again, the point I’ve been making for quite some time is that development of this vehicle is no small task! It seems that the variables are never ending and the targeted release is a matter of time.
Oct 20th, 2008 (11:42 pm)Finally, a post on something I can comment on.
Conclusion
The 12 Watt pump is for the ICE.
The 50 Watt pump is for the battery.
Reasoning
The Tesla water pump draws 167 Watts for a 56KWh battery scaled down to a 16KWh battery, this equates to 47.7 Watts.
Using Logic
It takes considerably more power to overcome the friction of pushing coolant through hundreds, and hundreds, of small pipes in the battery, as opposed to having, one relatively large pipe to the cylinder heads, and one large pipe from the heads back to the radiator.
As someone else here pointed out, the Tesla water pump runs 24/7, if over 50% charge, so huge parasitic drains on the battery, 22% in Martin’s case.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO Sale.
Oct 21st, 2008 (2:15 am)OMG, those water pumps look just like the ones used in my gaming rig. I have copper water blocks attached to my CPU, Intel chipset and nVidia video cards. To keep it chilled I pump the water via 1/2″ tubes to an external ginormous aluminum radiator. At the top of the radiator is a honking electric turbo fan. This type of setup is extremely common in PCs that are used for gaming. I bet those engineers at GM are really closet gamers just posing as battery geeks. GM ROCKS !!!
Oct 21st, 2008 (7:17 am)#80 JEC
This is extremely picky but in engineering its all about the units. When describing power, lower case “m” denotes “milli”, while upper case “M” denotes “mega”.
So 6.5mW is equivalent to the electrical energy of an ant farting. Now 6.5 MW is serious power.
Sorry for the anal retentive comment….lol. (No DRE here…)
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Lock your doors, I’m coming for you and I’m bringing a world of pain with me, just like Steven Seagal in…every Steven Seagal movie.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!
(…or I’ll remember to capitalize my ‘m’ next time)
Side note: Look for Steven next in Ruslan.
“A former Russian mobster named Ruslan, who is now a crime novelist, returns home and discovers his daughter is marrying his arch nemesis. His past also comes back to haunt him when his family is threatened. Hungry for justice, Ruslan returns to the life he once knew…with a vengeance.”
–quite a stretch for Mr. Seagal, can’t wait to see it release…at Blockbuster
Oct 21st, 2008 (10:31 am)We retail a lot of GM parts. I would be the first to confirm that the prices are a little quirky, and that they do try to price to market as much as they can. Even so, I’m gonna be pretty disappointed if GM’s cost on those cute little plastic pumps is $165.00 each.
Oct 21st, 2008 (11:19 am)I agree with Noel, $165 for a 1/14 hp electric pump?.. no way!, $20 to $50 at most and I would not be surprised if they are $12 each. Sure, they will cost you $165 when you buy a replacement
ICE cooling fluid is near 200degF, way too hot for the batteries so the two loops must be isolated most of the time. The Volt must have a complex cooling system.
So brushed or brushless motors in these pumps?, probably brushed..
Oct 21st, 2008 (12:06 pm)water cooling for batteries, mean loss of energy!
Ever wonder why electric cars have been around over 100yrs and in the year 2008 they are still in “developement”
Oct 21st, 2008 (9:00 pm)Assuming a single system with multiple loops (which makes the most sense), what exactly do you suppose the actual coolant will be? The usual water/glycol “Prestone” mix, or something more exotic? Keep in mind that the engine is run in a much more intermittent fashion, over a narrower range of speeds; and also, how difficult it must be to drain the battery for fluid replacement (to say nothing of conductivity issues).
Oct 22nd, 2008 (6:33 am)stas peterson,
Very good observation. Especially what is related to hydrogen. I always insisted, that photovoltaic is more or less fake idea. But on other hand I insisted that photovoltaic efficient solution for special cases. For EV is quite efficient solution since there is no need of expensive invertors, the energy volume would be simply increased by 5% improving travel distance and would serve as emergency power as well. For the house roof solution you have to spend lot of money for synchronization with el.grid. And that makes this idea more or less extravagant.