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2010 Toyota Prius Images Leaked
October 17th, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors, Images
Without the emotional response of the Volt’s leaked pics (at least for me), Toyota’s next generation Prius pictures have too leaked to the web.
Expected to have a larger combustion engine, and larger size, there are reports the fuel efficiency will be improved as well. The car is slated for reveal at the Detroit Auto Show in January.
That these are indeed photos of the 2010 Prius has been confirmed by Toyota.
This is the car that will compete with the 2011 Volt.
No plug expected.
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Related posts:
- Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?
- GM and Toyota May be in Talks to Build Priuses Together and is Toyota Really Looking at E-REVs?
- Next Generation Prius to Have Solar Panel Roof Option
- Toyota Attacks the Volt…Again
- Now Toyota Plugs-in Too
(5 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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Posted by: Lyle
October 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am
The Volt looks AWESOME next to that Prius, no contest!
October 17th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Volt wins hands downs!! No Question!
October 17th, 2008 at 6:40 am
From the article:
This is the car that will compete with the 2011 Volt.
No plug expected.
————–
No plug, no sale.
No plug, no competition.
The Volt does look nicer too.
October 17th, 2008 at 6:51 am
The Volt is certainly a nicer looking car, no question.
As expected, Toyota ‘updated’ the look of the Prius. It is better than the old one, but not in any sort of revolutionary way. When you have a current model that is still piling up backorders, I guess you don’t mess with the formula.
I would rather it have been redesigned, in a more ‘future utopia-type style’ (if that made up style existed)…but I understand why they did this.
It is still boring…but less ‘nerd’s shoe’
October 17th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Next to the Prius, the Volt looks like a sports car. I dont know why the Japanese cannot design a decent looking, and/or sporty, car. When they try it looks like a plastic toy (to me). Its funny when i travel to Japan, i can spot a US car a mile away. It could be an old oldsmobile, but it still turns heads.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:04 am
The competition is shaping up as an evolutionary design (Prius) versus a new design (Volt). Too bad the Volt didn’t push it a little harder, but its appearance still looks a little better, to me. On the other hand, the Prius remains distinctive whereas the Volt is unremarkable.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:06 am
It’s important to keep in mind that the 2011 Prius may look different, and that’s the car that will be compared to the Volt.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am
From the article:
This is the car that will compete with the 2011 Volt.
No plug expected
——————————————————
I don’t know about this statement:
A) two totally different cars, in two totally different markets
B) Toyota will sell a million of these before GM sells 1 Volt
I don’t think anyone really will embrace these two cars as competitors. Now when the Toyota Plug-In option is available….’maybe’ you could compare those two, but I still think it is unfair to the Volt.
I think we need to keep the Volt in the ‘Majority EV propulsion class,’ I see its competitors as follows:
1.) Mitsu iMiev
2.) Chrysler EV, van (Jeep is a pipe dream and not worht mentioning)
3.) Tesla Roadster (this high and on the list because it is real…and the leader in units sold/in production at the moment, lol)
4.) Nissan ??? (whatever they call it at the Detroit autoshow)
5.) SMART ed
(List contains only people I feel ‘could’ push out at least 1,000 units by 2012 in North America)
Wild Card of death: Toyota Plug-In Prius goes from a planned 10 mile range to 20+
October 17th, 2008 at 7:14 am
The Volt’s competition will be from some other auto maker by 2011. Almost all major brands are working on some type of Hybrid or electric. Pininfarina B Zero will be the car to beat if it makes production. Pure electric with over 150 mile range, this will be a game changer not to mention great design. It’s not bad enough giving up performance, range, and deal with the fact that you will be driving a glorified golf-cart, but does it have to be butt-ugly also. Can’t it be a little futuristic in design like the Volt concept was? It’s the 21st Century for Goodness sake, and where the crap is my flying car Detroit?
October 17th, 2008 at 7:16 am
4 Statik, With such a backorder I guess your right that there isn’t much reason to change the formula. 2015 on the other hand may see a serious redesign based on how the volt is doing.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Ooooh, So toyota slaps the Yaris nose on a Prius and calls it a new design?? From the front doors back it still looks like the same old boring Prius. FAIL
Maybe they should look at styling it like the Scion tC.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:28 am
I think we should expect the Plug-in Prius to have a 15 mile range, about half the range of the Volt. More than one published source has suggested the plug-in will have more range than the 7mile range of the next generation Prius, and one that I read said it would be about double.
And as I said in a prior thread, the Volt sure looks like more car to me.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Still ugly….
October 17th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Honda also makes low ground clearance vehicles, but with the debris on the highways now days, I think the greater ground clearance shown for the Prius is a good thing.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Interesting how the production versus concept pictures of the Volt created such a stir, but no such thing for the Prius. Different expectations, I suppose, with Toyota and Prius always expected to be OK but drab, while from Volt so much more was expected. Of course, there were no exciting Prius concept pictures for comparison, either, but it is remarkable how differently events have unfolded.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:44 am
#8 statik says “I think we need to keep the Volt in the ‘Majority EV propulsion class,’”
=============================================
On this blog, maybe, but not in the larger market. There, it seems to me, people see using gas as a bad thing and want to reduce it by any means possible. They do not particularly see using electricity as a good thing, even though they may accept it as a means to an end. But, if a well designed Prius (or Honda Insight or something else) can reduce gas to a low amount without needing electricity, that’s even better. From a customer’s perspective, all of them are going to use some gas (as Toyota and Honda will be quick to point out). So I do think they all are competing for all customers in the small car market.
I realize that here the idea of NPNS is powerful, but we are purists.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:44 am
“No plug expected” pretty much sums it up for me!
No plug, no deal!
When will the fat headed auto manufacturers get it through their skulls that the populace desires alternatives? I personally will not purchase another vehicle unless I can plug it in!
October 17th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Agree with #13. MPG doesn’t overcome it’s ugly factor.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:02 am
#17 jabroni says “I personally will not purchase another vehicle unless I can plug it in!”
===============================================
I understand, and I feel like you do (although I might purchase another gas-powered car), but I think we are in a small minority. For most people, 50 mpg achieved any way at all is a good thing, and they really don’t care how it’s done. Same for 100 mpg, or any other number. As long as plugging something in makes for a higher mpg, people will like it. Otherwise, I think they are indifferent to negative on the plug part (have to plug it in every day, which is a nuisance).
October 17th, 2008 at 8:07 am
No Plug,
No competition…
October 17th, 2008 at 8:10 am
The Volt is no doubt a very attractive vehicle, much more than the Prius is.
But with all fairness taken into consideration, redesigning the Prius, which isn’t necessary, will cost Toyota more money in R&D or whatever. The Volt will also cost 2 or 3 times as much, so it better look nicer too!
October 17th, 2008 at 8:11 am
I just puked a little bit in my mouth…
Prius just dont have no alliby …. as they say
If the Nerd’s Shoe still fits…
October 17th, 2008 at 8:15 am
RB #19.
I do not understand how people can think that plugging the car in every day is a nuisance. I give it 15 seconds tops. Because GM put the plug on the drivers side, I don’t even have to walk around to the passenger side. I will put into my garage, pull the cord down from the ceiling, and plug it in. I doubt it will take 15 seconds, and I know for a fact it will be faster than going to the gas station.
I agree with you that some people will find this a nuisance. I just don’t understand why because it is so freaking simple.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Murray, #22.
Well I hope you are not french kissing anyone. That could be kind of gross.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:19 am
While I think the Volt is clearly a better looking car, I’m struck by how similar these two are, aside from the lower roofline of the Volt… Specifically the air intake lower front, the slanting lights, and then down the sides and bottom. Interesting.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Static #8
“I don’t think anyone really will embrace these two cars as competitors. Now when the Toyota Plug-In option is available….’maybe’ you could compare those two, but I still think it is unfair to the Volt.”
I beg to differ. If released today, the Prius would the closest competitor by far. It will still remain a close competitor in late 2010 (ha!) but their may be other close competition by then as well. But what constitutes comparable (or competitive) vehicles is really up to the individual. One might consider EV range the most important feature and in this case you are correct. I believe more people will be looking at a range of features like: seating capacity, utility, gas utilization, cost, running costs, looks, etc. I believe that many Prius buyers simply want a car that meets their practical needs, have relegated looks to a lower priority, and that gets the best bas mileage for a reasonable price.
I have been championing GM to offer an EV only variant of the Volt and to release it sooner than Nov 2010 (probably too late to do this now). I believe this would have been the best avenue to production because the simplified design would allow earlier production and in my mind the clock to the electrification of GM’s fleet starts when the first Volt wheels of any variety hit the road. That said, I beleive the EV only market to be limited for ranges of less than 300 miles and no means of fast recharge or battery swap. Most people will not consider an EV only car comparable to an EREV.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:36 am
#26 Koz
In the same paragraph you say ‘I have been championing GM to offer an EV only variant of the Volt’, then you say ‘Most people will not consider an EV only car’.
?????????????
Also: The Volt looks much better IMO.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Koz,
My bad. I see what you’re trying to say. However why do you think it would be faster to market for EV only?
October 17th, 2008 at 8:47 am
dkudai01 #27
There are, I believe, 12 million or so light duty vehicles sold per year in the US. A small minority would be 3-5% or 360,00 - 600,000 vehicles per year. Although a small percentage, still plenty of market for a few thousand Volts don’t you think. GM probably chose (or without choice) 10K production the first year because battery production needs to be ramped up and the design has so much new content that limiting initial production prudently reduces risk. Ramped up production will be queued off of when original production begins.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Prius? EEEEEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!
…we now return to our regularly scheduled blog already in progress…
October 17th, 2008 at 9:09 am
The economist has a very good article on the GM/Chrysler merger (see link). Their conclusion, “I think it’s (access to) cash that’s driving this pony.”
http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12429628
October 17th, 2008 at 9:13 am
The whole concern I have is that I live in the Midwest and I want a car that I can take on vacation. If I can get better then 50 MPG great but if I can only drive 40 miles and then the engine starts up just to maintain my battery level for the remainder of my vacation, which could be 800 or 1200 miles total over 2 weeks time. This means I never have a fully charged battery for the entire vacation? I do not see the advantage to this over a Prius. The Voit sounds like a great car for people who live an drive only very short trips and do not take a car on vacation. (I understand that it is designed for these people). If you want to go Green then the Airlines are not the answer.
I for one would be willing to get 25 to 35 mpg for the ability to take that vacation. I believe that I am in the majority in this part of the country.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Yawn.
No Plug No Sale
October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
#8 Statik Says: “Wild Card of death: Toyota Plug-In Prius goes from a planned 10 mile range to 20+”
————————————————————————————–
The Toyota Plug-In Prius will not really have any all-electric range. Rather, it will get 150 MPG for the first 16 miles or so until the battery depletes. This gives it an average of 70 MPG, using my typical yearly driving pattern. By contrast, the Volt gets an average of 314 MPG using the same method.
Now let’s consider what would happen if the Toyota Prius started using larger batteries or ultra-caps. Using my typical yearly driving pattern, A Toyota Plug-In Prius with:
• 150 MPG for the first 32 files would average 107 MPG
• 150 MPG for the first 64 files would average 123 MPG
The bottom line is that, since the Prius requires the gas engine to come on for normal acceleration and highway speeds, the average mileage will never come anywhere near the Volt for most average driving scenarios.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
#32 Skip
Rent a car to go on vacation. Nothing’s more fun than beating the crap out of a rental.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Skip
You math-fu is not good. Also, why do you care about the battery charge?
Reboot and try your math out again. Hint: How often do you vaca,?bro?
October 17th, 2008 at 9:27 am
#15 RB
Interesting how the production versus concept pictures of the Volt created such a stir, but no such thing for the Prius. Different expectations, I suppose, with Toyota and Prius always expected to be OK but drab, while from Volt so much more was expected. Of course, there were no exciting Prius concept pictures for comparison, either, but it is remarkable how differently events have unfolded.
——————————————————
I think you nailed it there. That was always my problem with the production Volt. They showed us one thing, said they were going to be true to it, then did the switcharoo…and they paid the price for it on the initial response. Toyota on the other hand promised nothing, showed nothing…and delivered a model that was slightly improved from the current model…so hum-de-dum, no big reaction.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
dkudai01,
Sorry, posted before seeing your last one.
A lot of the new development and lengthy development is associated with integrating the generator with the EV operation. Basically they have to design a very fully functional EV and then integrate a generator to operate seamlessly and very efficiently with it. The power management is complex if they are trying to maximize efficiency and seamlessly manage the power. The power flow can be gerator to traction motor + aux loads, gen to battery + traction motor + auxiliary loads, gen to battery + auxiliary loads, gen + battery to traction motor + auxiliary loads.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
#32 Skip
During your two-week vacation, the Volt acts like a normal car wrt gasoline consumption. The rest of the time, the Volt starts you off with a 40-mile AER.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I have to say I’m not so much a fan of Toyota’s new front ends on their cars.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I think some BEVs will be available by the time the PHEV’s are available, so those that think BEVs are best can buy em. However, comma, for those who suffer from range anxiety plus the fear of a 4 hour fill up, the PHEV seems a good compromise. As someone said, the road to success is paved with partial victories.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:38 am
#32 Skip Says: “If I can get better then 50 MPG great but if I can only drive 40 miles and then the engine starts up just to maintain my battery level for the remainder of my vacation, which could be 800 or 1200 miles total over 2 weeks time. This means I never have a fully charged battery for the entire vacation?
…
I for one would be willing to get 25 to 35 mpg for the ability to take that vacation. I believe that I am in the majority in this part of the country.”
————————————————————————————-
I’m not following you here. What is your issue? The Volt will cover your vacation just as well as a Prius or any other small car. Most people drive long distances only a few times a year. I grew up in Ohio and Illinois, so I don’t think the Midwest is much different.
As an example, the typical yearly driving pattern is probably something like:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
Which totals up to just under 12,000 miles per year. Assuming a single charge per day (usually at night), the Volt will average 314 miles per gallon. Thats over 6 times better than a Prius.
This includes a 1350 mile vacation (3 days at 450 miles per day).
I’m confused. What is your issue?
October 17th, 2008 at 9:39 am
I dont think anyone reacted to the Prius because it could not have gotten any uglier than it was, so there was only 1 way to go. They didnt go far enough though.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Skip #32,
The Volt is being designed to get 40 miles of All Electric Range (AER) and then 50 mpg afterward in range extended mode, so you can go on vacation to your hearts content. You are right in that the real advantage to the Volt over the next best low-gas choice (Prius) is the first 40 miles when the battery is charged. The MPGs for this operation is infinite.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Classic Toyota design….Put the Camry next to the Malibu and watch the same atrocity!
I understand its form over function but someone has to draw a line in the sand!
October 17th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Koz,
It just seems that would side track them from getting the range extended version to Production. Plus wouldn’t it just be a 40 mile EV? I just don’t see the advantage. I definitely would not buy an EV only version.
Plus, I want to be able to go on vacation! Haha
October 17th, 2008 at 9:48 am
#33 Dave G
The Toyota Plug-In Prius will not really have any all-electric range. Rather, it will get 150 MPG for the first 16 miles or so until the battery depletes. This gives it an average of 70 MPG, using my typical yearly driving pattern. By contrast, the Volt gets an average of 314 MPG using the same method.
Now let’s consider what would happen if the Toyota Prius started using larger batteries or ultra-caps. Using my typical yearly driving pattern, A Toyota Plug-In Prius with:
• 150 MPG for the first 32 files would average 107 MPG
• 150 MPG for the first 64 files would average 123 MPG
The bottom line is that, since the Prius requires the gas engine to come on for normal acceleration and highway speeds, the average mileage will never come anywhere near the Volt for most average driving scenarios.
————————————————
Actually, you are not accurate, the Plug-In Prius has the capacity to go up to 65 MPH in all EV mode. The concept Plug-In/Mule goes 7 miles in this format, and Toyota expects the production Lithium Plug-In to go 10 miles all EV up to that same 65MPG…no ICE blending at all.
Here is a article directly comnparing the Plug-In Prius operation (with a test drive) compared to the Volt.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081015/FREE/810109995/1024/GALLERYDETROIT
“In the PHEV version, there’s a button (in the prototype, it was on the dash to the left of the steering column) labeled “EV mode” that lets the driver choose to run the car only on electricity. If you’ve recharged the batteries by plugging in to the electric grid and then select this mode, the prototype will deliver six or seven miles of pure electric driving, burning no gas. The target for the production model is 10 miles of such range, enough for a lot of the trips many drivers make. “
October 17th, 2008 at 10:07 am
The pictures make the cars look similar in size, but isn’t the new Prius quite a bit bigger? 14 cu ft trunk versus 10 cu ft trunk in the Volt. 111 in wheelbase verus 105 in the Volt. 5 passenger versus 4 passenger. 11.9 gallon gas tank versus an 8 (??) gallon tank in the Volt.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:09 am
No mention that the Volt will cost $20000 more than the prius, that should be a big factor in their buying decision.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Skip #32
Why not just buy a Vectrix (all-electric motorcycle <10K) and a Toyota Yaris (all-gas <20K ~30 mpg). For about 30K you can do most of your commuting all-electric and have a gas car for those longer trips?
October 17th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Who cares ? What I care about is MPG (or CO2 gms / mile).
Ofcourse I prefer pure EV to Volt too - both Prius and Volt are a stop gap solution.
I can just replace one of our cars and use the other for long drives. Or just get a rental … otherwise it will be like the truck that is used to haul stuff from Home Depot twice a year.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:12 am
A lot can change in 2 years so i do think toyota will have some type of plug-in by then.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:13 am
I like more the Volt design. Nevertheless, Prius will be a more “reachable” car. I would prefer to buy two Priuses (one for me an one for my wife) than one Volt.
By the moment the Volt costs as low as a Prius, Toyota would have figure out how to produce a “Plug in Prius” even cheaper.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:20 am
A PHEV consumes less energy, than a pure EV for the same drive. This is because, most of the time, the ICE or extra batteries are not used - but the ICE weighs less. Seems odd but the carbon footprint for a pure EV is larger than for a PHEV.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:26 am
dkuda01,
So, you would be part of the vast majority. That’s fine and that is why the Volt as an EREV has gotten so much attention but there are people (not me either) that would be happy with a 40 mile EV. I do think 40 miles is a little light for a large portion of the EV market. The more sensible scenario would have been to add 4KWh or so of battery capacity and allow discharge below 35%, probably to 15-20%. Turtling up long hills because of low charge upon initial accent would not be relevent. I know some people will scream that this will shorten battery life significantly, but not according to A123’s data (maybe with LGChem the numbers would be different). So, the range in this scenario would be more like 70 miles.
Rmoving the genset and related components nor adding battery capacity present designs issues that require much effort. Even though GM is hurting big time right now, they are certainly capable of doing this minor additional development without “side tracking” the “real” Volt. In fact, as I’ve explained previously I believe it to have been a faster avenue to volume production than their plan.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
They are surprisingly similar in appearance to me.
But I do like the Volt’s looks a bit more.
However, if the Prius were the plug-in with a “40 mile electric-only range with a range extender” and the Volt were a conventional hybrid, I would choose the Prius.
Its really all about a getting 300+ mpg for my pattern of driving. Gas prices are falling again but that will not last forever.
Volt’s platform is the perfect solution for a change to electrics.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Why would the Plug in Prius cost less than the Volt? It is an already developed design, so we are talking about a different battery and software. Lets say the Plug-able Prius uses a 5 KWH battery, adding something like $3000 to the cost up and above the next generation price. So assuming the next generation price is about $25,000, then the PHEV would retail for less than $30,000, or close to $10,000 less than a Volt, with half the AER of the Volt. I think lots of us poor folks will jump at it.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:33 am
#46 statik Says: Actually, you are not accurate, the Plug-In Prius has the capacity to go up to 65 MPH in all EV mode. The concept Plug-In/Mule goes 7 miles in this format, and Toyota expects the production Lithium Plug-In to go 10 miles all EV up to that same 65MPG…no ICE blending at all.”
————————————————————————————–
I’ve heard different numbers for the top EV speed of the Prius. The lowest was 45 mph, the highest was 62 mph. So your number of 65 mph is the highest I’ve heard. Where did you get that number? I didn’t find it in the link you provided.
What’s more, I don’t know how people drive in Canada, but here in New Jersey most people seem to drive faster than 65 mph.
But top EV speed is only one issue. Acceleration is the other. When you step on the accelerator, the Prius gas engine comes on, even at 35 mph. This is exactly what happened when I test drove the Prius, and others have confirmed this it as well.
So for normal American driving, I believe the notion of all-electric range with a Plug-In Prius is false. Toyota seems to be pushing the higher MPG angle as well. They don’t seem to talk about all-electric range nearly as much as MPG.
It’s not that I don’t like Toyota. The last time I bought a car, I only looked a Toyota and Honda. Rather, what I’m trying to say is that for Toyota to really compete with the Volt and other extended range EVs, they will have to come up with something better than the Prius. I certainly hope they do, but I haven’t seen anything yet.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I have a question for the engineers on the blog.
When EEstor batteries are available for cars, does that mean that the range extender ICE would rapid-charge these batteries in a matter of minutes?
If so, that might mean the ICE would only run for very short bursts and make it possible to get many times the 300 mpg that I would get with the Lithium-based Volt.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:45 am
The Volt is much better.
Of course for me:
No Plug = No Sale
October 17th, 2008 at 10:53 am
#56 Van Says: “Lets say the Plug-able Prius uses a 5 KWH battery, adding something like $3000 to the cost up and above the next generation price. So assuming the next generation price is about $25,000, then the PHEV would retail for less than $30,000, or close to $10,000 less than a Volt, with half the AER of the Volt. I think lots of us poor folks will jump at it.”
————————————————————————————–
Tax rebates are based on kwH of the battery. IIRC, the Prius Plug-in will get a $3500 rebate, and the Volt will get a $7500 rebate.
GM’s CEO said the Volt will cost “mid-to-high 30s”, so after rebates, the Volt will cost around $30K and the Plug-In Prius will cost around $25K for the base models.
Using the normal yearly driving pattern I’ve shown previously, the Volt’s fuel costs will be $336 per year ($191 electric + $145 gas). The Plug-In Prius fuel cost will be $764 per year ($108 electric + $656 gas).
At those yearly fuel costs, the break even point will be 11-12 years, which is longer than the life of the vehicle. In other words, the total cost of ownership for the Plug-In Prius will be lower than the Volt. For example, if you keep a car for 5 years, the Volt will cost you around $3000 more to own than a Plug-In Prius.
GM needs to work on getting the price of the Volt down.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I think the Volt has a lot nicer lines whereas the prius just warped. I like the sleek lines that the volt has and it looks a lot cleaner
October 17th, 2008 at 11:05 am
mikeinatl #58,
There is no reason to do that. EEstor supposes that no IEC is needed any longer since you can fill your car with electricity with the same speed as with gasoline and gasoline range extension will be abundant. Your idea to stick with IEC when magic EEstor will be mass product and add huge engine (may be locomotive) 2000 pounds capable to charge battery within 10 minutes would make lot of fun.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:05 am
I’ve heard different numbers for the top EV speed of the Prius. The lowest was 45 mph, the highest was 62 mph. So your number of 65 mph is the highest I’ve heard. Where did you get that number? I didn’t find it in the link you provided.
What’s more, I don’t know how people drive in Canada, but here in New Jersey most people seem to drive faster than 65 mph.
But top EV speed is only one issue. Acceleration is the other. When you step on the accelerator, the Prius gas engine comes on, even at 35 mph. This is exactly what happened when I test drove the Prius, and others have confirmed this it as well.
So for normal American driving, I believe the notion of all-electric range with a Plug-In Prius is false. Toyota seems to be pushing the higher MPG angle as well. They don’t seem to talk about all-electric range nearly as much as MPG.
It’s not that I don’t like Toyota. The last time I bought a car, I only looked a Toyota and Honda. Rather, what I’m trying to say is that for Toyota to really compete with the Volt and other extended range EVs, they will have to come up with something better than the Prius. I certainly hope they do, but I haven’t seen anything yet.
————————————————–
Yes, if you mash the EV, like they did in the article, the ICE will come on briefly to give it the extra jump. Under regular acceleration it will not toggle on. The conventional Prius you drove does indeed engage the ICE almost all the time…unless you are just puttering around at low speeds.
As for ‘not knowing how people drive,’ well I’m not accounting for breaking the law. In Canada the max anywhere is 100KM or 62 miles a hour…and this is actually where the max capacity speed comes from…Toyota said it will go ‘all electric’ on the highway in Japan…people extrapolated that conversion to 62MPG.
If you are going to split hairs and disqualify the Plug-In Prius because ‘Americans have to go 70MPH+’ everywhere and they drive aggressively, you CERTAINLY need to have the same bar held up to your ‘314 MPG’ claims with the Volt, because the VOLT is getting NOTHING like 40 mile range under hard accelerations and zipping around at 70 MPG everywhere…it MAYBE gets 25 with that type of driver. We don’t even know the Volt will get a 40 mile range in any circumstance other than ‘optimal’ speed and driving conditions
You just can’t have it both ways, if your saying people are driving the Plug-In Prius hard and it won’t perform to spec, then you have to assume the same driving conditions for the Volt.
I’m a just a regular driver, who drives mostly in town and goes on highways occasionally. I think if I am driving a Plug-In Prius, I am more than capable of running it in all EV 99% of the time when it has capacity left, and curbing my urge to keep it under 65MPG (at least for the first 10 miles, its not that hard, lol), and not drag race from every light.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:15 am
#58 mikeinatl. Says: “When EEstor batteries are available for cars, does that mean that the range extender ICE would rapid-charge these batteries in a matter of minutes?”
————————————————————————————–
The ICE doesn’t really charge the battery in the Volt. The battery level is maintained at around 30% when the ICE is on. The ICE basically just powers the electric motor. This would be the same for EEStor or Li/Ion.
Using the ICE to charge the battery is bad for 3 reasons:
1) The battery is 94% efficient, so having the ICE charge and discharge the battery introduces an additional 6% power loss.
2) Having the ICE charge the battery significantly would increase the number of charge/discharge cycles, which would wear out the battery faster.
3) You want to charge the battery from your home electric outlet, not from the ICE. The whole point is to use gas only when you have to.
Having said all this, the ICE does charge the battery a little bit now and then. Specifically, if the ICE is running and you step hard on the accelerator, the batteries will drain a little to supply the extra power for acceleration. The same goes for driving fast up steep hills. When you let up on the accelerator, the ICE will output extra power for a little while until the battery gets back up to 30%. In other words, that extra 30% power in the battery when then ICE is on acts as a buffer to average out the peak demands of the car. That’s how you get 150 peak horsepower from a 75 horsepower ICE.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
#63 statik,
Where did you get that 65 MPH number? Do you have a link?
October 17th, 2008 at 11:25 am
#63 statik Says: “The conventional Prius you drove does indeed engage the ICE almost all the time…unless you are just puttering around at low speeds.”
————————————————————————————-
How is the Plug-In Prius different than the conventional Prius? I thought they both used the same small permanent magnet electric motor.
To get significantly more horsepower, I thought they would need an induction motor, like the EV1, Tesla, and Volt all use.
Am I missing something here? Does Toyota have any detailed press releases on this?
October 17th, 2008 at 11:40 am
#65 Dave G
Where did you get that 65 MPH number? Do you have a link?
——————————–
Ok, Dave. You got me, I said up to 65 miles per hour, when I should have been specific and said 62, because that is the only confirmed number.
Now, how about acknowledging some of my points in #63?
Like how does your Volt’s 314 MPG stack up when using the same 65MPG+, aggressive ‘New Jersey’ driver. Is your 314MPG number even a remotely realistic ‘real world’ expectation?
All I’m asking for is for you to compare the two honestly.
You can’t just say, ‘well I expect that people will push the Prius outside of the intended operating parameters to support my theory that it can not be operated in ‘all EV’ mode’ or to devalue the electric capacity of the vehicle when not applying the same metrics to the Volt.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:54 am
#66 Dave G
#63 statik Says: “The conventional Prius you drove does indeed engage the ICE almost all the time…unless you are just puttering around at low speeds.”
————————————————————————————-
#66 Dave G says:
How is the Plug-In Prius different than the conventional Prius? I thought they both used the same small permanent magnet electric motor.
To get significantly more horsepower, I thought they would need an induction motor, like the EV1, Tesla, and Volt all use.
Am I missing something here? Does Toyota have any detailed press releases on this?
—————————————————-
The difference in the next gen Prius is a software issue, in the conventional Prius it is not intended to be a ‘all-EV,’ it is designed to maximize mileage.
What are you arguing about anyway? I am agreeing with you. The conventional cannot operate ‘all-ev,’ obviosuly the PHEV can.
This is the direct quote from the Toyota guy on the prototype Plug-In Prius.
“Asakura (Project General Manager of Toyota’s Hybrid Vehicle System Engineering Development Division) said the prototypes can operate on electric power for a range of about 7 miles and can re-charge in three to four hours using a 110-vlot outlet. Under the hood is the current Prius’s 1.5-liter inline four. The electric motor generates 50kW, which combined with the more powerful pack, allows the Prius prototype to reach 62 mph on electric-only power. Current cars can only hit about 25 mph before the gasoline engine cuts in.” (7 mile range is on the prototypes double NiMH packs…10 miles is the goal for the production on Lithium packs)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html
Note it says ‘operate on electric range’ and ‘reach 62 mph on electric-only power. Current cars can only hit about 25 mph before the gasoline engine cuts in.”
Ok Dave G, I’m not sure why you are splitting hairs with me about a couple MPHs or apparently questioning everything about the Plug-In Prius in ‘the real world of New Jersey drivers’…but lets try one out on you:
Can you show me a detailed press release from GM stating what conditions the Volt will achieve this 40 mile range to even remotely back up your 314 MPG claim?
We don’t have to argue about this all day, but you have to bend a little. I can say to you, right now, that yes…the Plug-In Prius will not meet it’s intended specifications under your conditions, but those are not the conditions it is intended to be driven under. Likewise, your Volt numbers will not meet your quoted results being held up to the same standard as your are holding the Prius to.
/that is all I am saying, we have to compare apples to apples
October 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
PRIUS IS OLD! VOLT IS NEW AND THE FUTURE.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
the prius may be even ulgyer the the old one, but still not as ulgu as an ev1 im glad they smasshed them and i hope they will do the same with these priusses
October 17th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
At first I thought this thread was boring………
Is it Priusses or Priussi?
October 17th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Okay, Toyota, stop with the beaky nose thing already. It looks lousy on the crenellated Camry and it looks lousy on the new Prius. The worst part is that if a bunch of other automakers copy you then I will have to look at these beaky nose things for another 5 years until the designers come to their senses. It was the same thing for Audi’s giant square grille ring on the front that went from the hood to the air dam. Everybody copied it and we had to look at it for a few years until the designers came to their senses.
Anyway, just keep it sleek, please. I hate bulbous protrusions on cars.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
No Contest…. The Prius looks like a kids car…
October 17th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
#71
>Is it Priusses or Priussi?
I think it’s Prissies.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I give Toyota credit for the ground clearance lift of the 2010 Prius. Cars need to be a little higher off the road. Let people lower them later if they like.
I would have trouble paying over $22,000 for the new Prius. True, one million of these will sell before a single Volt. The fun part is seeing how the lower cost (delta) Cruze model holds off the much higher price Japanese car. The Cruze’ 40 MPG is very attractive.
If the Cruze does well in 09′, then the Volt will do very well in 00′.
A final thought on the Prius. Are we as Americans going to continue holding the mindset of sending all of our money to Asia? By keeping money in local circulation will help the guy down the block. We also keep the same dollar which was sales taxed yesterday generating continued tax revenues toward our national debt.
Altruism is a good thing, especially when the end result is having a Chevy Volt in your garage.
Photo from the Expo…
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/volt%2009-26%20019.jpg
=D~
October 17th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
If it doesn’t run on electricity I’m not buying one. As for looks, the Volt wins hands down. There’s some subtle similarities but the Prius looks like an insect..where the Volt looks like a car.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Let’s hope the Volt is a success…..plus any other American strategies/products that will help to give us the energy independence we must have.
Unfortunately we didn’t learn very well from history….
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/10/dayintech_1017
October 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I wonder about those posts that say a non-all-electric-mode hybrid is “okay?” At 40 mile all electric range many people will gas up so rarely that this fact will make the Volt a game changer. This is the tipping point where oil consumption will go down as ER-EV technology spreads to more and more model.
For those who see ultra high mileage cars as a reasonable alternative should realize that the Volt on extended range mode is a 50mpg car. Drop the 400 pound battery and all its needed systems (charger, inverter, plug!) and I bet you are looking at a 70mpg car!
Or, in other words, the 2014 Prius.
People! Think! ER-EV not “me too!”
October 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Statik man, you have to get out of Ontario. You are perpetuating myths about Canada. “As for ‘not knowing how people drive,’ well I’m not accounting for breaking the law. In Canada the max anywhere is 100KM or 62 miles a hour”
Come out west here for a vacation, we’re allowed to drive 110KM/h on our highways.
Next you’re going to be telling people that sometimes it doesn’t snow in Canada. Sheesh.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Rashid #23
“I will put into my garage, pull the cord down from the ceiling, and plug it in. I doubt it will take 15 seconds, and I know for a fact it will be faster than going to the gas station.”
That my friend is the answer Toyota doesn’t understand.
Add the water cooler talk, “I haven’t been to a gas station in months” and the Volt will out sell the Prius. (If Toyota doesn’t get it by then)
Think about it, in the morning you are tired and trying to get to work on time. Hate the gas stop.
In the evening you are tired and just want to get home, hate the gas station stop.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
#79 Canadian
Statik man, you have to get out of Ontario. You are perpetuating myths about Canada. “As for ‘not knowing how people drive,’ well I’m not accounting for breaking the law. In Canada the max anywhere is 100KM or 62 miles a hour”
Come out west here for a vacation, we’re allowed to drive 110KM/h on our highways.
Next you’re going to be telling people that sometimes it doesn’t snow in Canada. Sheesh.
—————————————–
Really? I did not know that at all. I guess I learned something new.
Pure speculation here, but is that a TCH thing? (Trans-Canada Highway). I thought it was 100 KM across the board.
Go out west for a vacation? You mean drive there? Are you crazy, everyone knows that the roads are all made out of fallen trees once you hit Manitoba…and anything over even 40 KM/hr is suicide, what with all the wild moose and all.
/thanks for the info, I’ll update my fact sheet, heeh
October 17th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
#68 statik Says: “Now, how about acknowledging some of my points in #63?
Like how does your Volt’s 314 MPG stack up when using the same 65MPH+, aggressive ‘New Jersey’ driver. Is your 314MPG number even a remotely realistic ‘real world’ expectation?”
————————————————————————————–
I don’t know exactly how the Volt will stack up to typical American driving, but I do remember GM doing some studies on this. I’ll look for the link.
My 314 MPG number assumes 3 things:
1) 40 miles all electric range.
2) 50 miles per gallon after that.
3) A typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
When you plug these numbers into a spread sheet, you come out with 314 MPG average. Obviously, if GM doesn’t hit 40 miles AER or 50 MPG, the number will change.
As for the Toyota, I admittedly have less data to plug into the spread sheet, but I have heard that the general way they will advertise the plug-in Prius and the plug-in Vue will be much higher mileage, not all-electric range.
To be clear, I’m not trying to nit-pick the numbers, and I don’t think I have an agenda. I’m honestly just trying to compare the gas savings for a typical driver.
Now if we assume that the plug-in Prius ICE won’t come on for average driving, then let’s look at how this would play out. If the Plug-In Prius has 10 miles of true all-electric range, and then 47 MPG after that, this would yield 68 MPG average. This is almost the same as a Plug-In Prius that gets 150 MPG for the first 16 miles. The only difference would be if Toyota starts putting large batteries in the Prius, but I haven’t heard anything about that in the press.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Does that make the people that drive them Prissy too?
October 17th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
To anyone that thinks Toyota is off the hook for not overpromising something awesome - let me remind you of these:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/03/copy-of-hybrid-x_011_tcm317-551665.jpg
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_toyota_prius_car_news/2010_toyota_prius/toypri_10_2/1501647-1-eng-US/toypri_10_2_gallery_image_large.jpg
October 17th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Statik #81 and Canadian #79.
I live in New England and have had the pleasure of driving in British Columbia. I can’t remember the speed limit but I can tell you it is the most beautiful place I have ever been. I landed in Vancouver and drove up through central BC in a convertible. How I would love to do that again. Statik, don’t worry about the Moose. The pure beauty of the Canadian landscape is worth the risk. Trust me on that.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Canada has highways? Huh. Who knew?
—
The difference between the Prius and the Volt is that it looks like Toyota didn’t make many compromises in going for low aerodynamic drag. This will pay off in reduced fuel consumption at highway speeds and the faster you like to drive, the (relatively) better the Prius will perform.
People have told me that they can get 45+mpg out of their current Priuses, even when cruising at 80mph. That’s not the instantaneous readout, that’s the computation from filling up at the pump at the end of the day.
If it does achieve a significantly lower Cd, the next Prius is going to offer amazing fuel economy on the highway at high speed.
Also, let’s remember that the Prius is, nominally, a five passenger car. That fifth seat, although certainly not a comfortable way to do a 300 mile trip, is going to tip the balance for quite a few people. The Prius, as a hatch, has very good cargo room. That makes a difference. The Prius has an 11 gallon tank, so it will cruise further down the interstate, which is an incentive for others.
When we get around to comparing the vehicles with cost in the picture, the most consistently (and, in my view, unreasonably) optimistic estimates for the Volt are $32,500 plus fees ($40K minus the $7500 from Uncle Sugar). Toyota has announced a series of manufacturing improvements that mean they’ll be able to hold the line on Prius pricing (currently $22,500). The Prius starts with a $10K advantage. For the first 10,000 Volts, this is not a problem… 10,000 people will certainly want a copy of this car whether it’s economically sensible or not.
After that point, though, the uphill battle begins. People are resistant to paybacks that take longer than 3 years. People are also resistant to paybacks that involve a 50% increase in the expenditure. With time-value-of-money in the equation, the Volt won’t pay off until gas is so expensive that the economy is wrecked, anyway.
The Prius, even though most of you think it’s ugly, has the combination of price, features and capabiltiies to appeal to a wide swathe of people looking for practical transportation. Toyota sells these in serious volume already and the car has an excellent reputation for reliability.
I won’t say the Volt is doomed but it’s not going to make any money for GM in its current form. GM’s best hope is to leverage the Volt to produce a more cost-effective car with wider appeal very quickly. If I were GM, I’d be looking at a follow-on 20-mile AER vehicle with a target price of $28K and something extra that gives is additional appeal. Unfortunately, that will likely collide with a very similar vehicle from Toyota that could hit the streets much sooner.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Dave G. 314 MPG is extremely misleading and I sincerely hope GM doesn’t go with that. I understand your math just fine, but if I saw 314 MPG on the sticker, I would think that was every time I drove the car.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
#82 Dave G
It’s all good…we should just move on, for our sanity and the board’s, lol.
#85 Rashiid
Statik #81 and Canadian #79: I live in New England and have had the pleasure of driving in British Columbia. I can’t remember the speed limit but I can tell you it is the most beautiful place I have ever been. I landed in Vancouver and drove up through central BC in a convertible. How I would love to do that again. Statik, don’t worry about the Moose. The pure beauty of the Canadian landscape is worth the risk. Trust me on that.
————————————–
Actually I’ve been to British Columbia myself, and I can vouch for the scenic beauty…I still don’t know if it is worth your life, a herd of 50,000 wild moose charging down on you is scary as heck.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
And then there’s the Insight II. Honda makes a bid for lowest-price, most cost-effective hybrid. Honda is an engineering force to be reckoned with.
I own 4 Toyotas and have been extremely happy with them. However, if Honda delivers a $18K vehicle that’s similar to the Prius, I’ll certainly consider it.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
#84 Campy
To anyone that thinks Toyota is off the hook for not overpromising something awesome - let me remind you of these:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/03/copy-of-hybrid-x_011_tcm317-551665.jpg
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_toyota_prius_car_news/2010_toyota_prius/toypri_10_2/1501647-1-eng-US/toypri_10_2_gallery_image_large.jpg
——————————————————-
The difference is that Toyota never showed a concept, a sketch or anything and represented it as what they were going to build. People speculated on what it would look like, but Toyota up until this week has been completely silent on any plans for the production next gen Prius.
GM showed the Volt and said, “We are going to built this, it is going to be ‘unmistakeably the Volt,’ we are going to be true to the concept,” all the way up to the day that the Transformer’s footage leaked out.
People can be upset the Prius is not what they had envisioned, but Toyota did not enable dreams of grandeur, and therefore ‘are off the hook’…because there was no hook to begin with.
You posted a link to the Concept Hybrid X, never intended to be the next Prius, although it is true alot of people thought it could give clues to the styling of the ‘next gen’
October 17th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
#62 Darius
#64 Dave G
Thanks guys.
There is an EEStor cordless screwdriver available now that charges in 1 1/2 minutes instead of one hour. (Coleman brand) It has provides a shorter cycle of use, but we are talking about fully recharging 40 TIMES FASTER. Also much cheaper, lighter and smaller and should have far longer life than lithium.
One wonders how many full charges are possible from a gallon of gas used to run the ICE of an EEStor Volt. If a full charge on Lithium takes a Volt 40 miles and the EEStor that size is half that range (?) but would charge fully in 5 minutes (per some reports), then you’re running the ICE only 5 minutes for every 20 miles.
In a Lithium Volt, the ICE mode gets 50 miles per gallon running continuously. Lets say you travel an hour at 50 mph so you have used one gallon.
A gallon of gas in the EEstor Volt would take you 20 miles and charge 5 minutes and so on and so on. So the ICE would do that 12 times before your gallon is gone, yielding you 480 miles per gallon for the ICE-only range.
So that 8 gallon tank gets you 3,840 miles and is filled about 4 times a year. So much for “Range Anxiety”.
Too many variable for these calculations to be real, but EEstor is exciting. With real EEstor products now on the market, it can’t be that long until this type batteries are available for cars.
October 17th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Prius still looks like an egg!
October 17th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
NEWS FLASH: From the AP… Friday October 17, 12:17 pm ET
Oil rises above $71 on expectations of OPEC cut
By Stevenson Jacobs, AP Business Writer
Oil prices rebound above $71 a barrel as investors bet OPEC will trim output
NEW YORK (AP) — Oil prices rebounded back above $71 a barrel Friday as traders bet that OPEC will announce a sizable production cut at an emergency meeting next week in an effort to stem crude’s stunning collapse.
______________________________________
“trim output” …
…this is delicate terminology for “bend over, set your elbows on the table, and relax”
=D~
October 17th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
#89 Dagwood55
And then there’s the Insight II. Honda makes a bid for lowest-price, most cost-effective hybrid. Honda is an engineering force to be reckoned with.
I own 4 Toyotas and have been extremely happy with them. However, if Honda delivers a $18K vehicle that’s similar to the Prius, I’ll certainly consider it.
———————————————
After now being able to actually evaluate the appearance of the ‘next gen’ Prius and the rising costs as we get closer to production on, well…all EVs, I’m inclined to agree with you.
I think the new Honda Insight is a better looking car, and at 45MPGish with a price tag of $18,500, that is hard to beat. I think if Honda can ramp up capacity, it may be a challenger to the Prius’ thrown.
(Disclaimer, I am on the wait list for a Insight and have put money down…so I have a bias here for sure, although I am just purchasing the Insight as a ’stop-gap’ until I get my EV…not because I have any great desire for it).
The wild card would be if Toyota can follow through with these supposed ‘new cost efficiencies’ to bring the price down….although even if they can produce it cheaper I don’t see a scenario where they pass along those savings to the customer, they can sell endless amounts of the Prius right now, in this economy.
October 17th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
#91 Mikeinati:
A gallon of gas in the EEstor Volt would take you 20 miles and charge 5 minutes and so on and so on. So the ICE would do that 12 times before your gallon is gone, yielding you 480 miles per gallon for the ICE-only range
=====================================================
Only problem I see with those assumptions, is you assume that the ICE can put 8KWH of charge into the battery/capacitor in 5 mins. It won’t even come close.
Yes, the capacitor can charge in 5 mins, but that takes a lot of juice… 96KW for 5 mins to be exact. At 120v, that’s 800 Amps. 400 amps at 240v, at the 300v the generator works at, it’s 320 amps. a 1.4L engine just won’t get the job done. Maybe a 6+L V-8 but definitely not the 1.4.
October 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Static & Dave G,
Not to dredge back up your whole discussion but… a 50KW traction motor will not constitute an EV capable vehicle to 99% of the population unless it’s in a motorcycle. Even at that, I thought it was 45KW for the next generation Prius. What will this get you, 0-45mph in 15 seconds or so.
Dagwoo55,
Go buy your Prius for $22,500. Good luck!
October 17th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
They totally copied the Honda prius, i mean insight.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
The Prius price tags looks far more attractive… no contest.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I never thought they could make the Prius any uglier,….. But they did.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“People have told me that they can get 45+mpg out of their current Priuses, even when cruising at 80mph. That’s not the instantaneous readout, that’s the computation from filling up at the pump at the end of the day.”
It is impossible to get an acurate read from using the gas pump at a gas station, combined with peoples need to, how should we say, exagerate, these figures are always suspect. And suspect to the extreme because they need to justify their purchase.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Why would the Plug in Prius cost less than the Volt?
____________________________________________________________
Being able to take advantage of an existing high-volume production hybrid by offering that as an option is a definite cost reducer.
And of course, the upgrade provides a MPG BOOST rather than the misleading “range” value quoted here far too often.
No matter. Promote whatever you want. It won’t change the reality that the market is demanding LARGE QUANTITIES of vehicles that are AFFORDABLE priced with SUBSTANTIAL efficiency improvements NOW.
October 17th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Statik, in Alberta any divided highway is 110, TCH, Hwy 2, Yellowhead. BC used to be stuck at 90, but they’ve seen the light and allow 110 on their divided highways as well.
As for the moose, well that’s why we all drive pickups, they at least make it a fair fight with neither of you walking away.
October 17th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
“Okay, Toyota, stop with the beaky nose thing already.”
Totally agreed! The new Prius looks, well, uh, somewhat better than the current one — except for that hideous proboscis!
Somebody help me out: which of the Muppets is it that has that very same nose?
The Yaris two-door, at least, looks like Dogbert, which is OK in my book.
October 17th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I would think the poll is skewed slightly (an understatement) since it is on this website…let’s be fair.
If we just had the MSRP for these vehicles, a better question could be asked…which one will you purchase?
October 17th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
#87 Rashiid Amul Says: “314 MPG is extremely misleading and I sincerely hope GM doesn’t go with that. I understand your math just fine, but if I saw 314 MPG on the sticker, I would think that was every time I drove the car.”
————————————————————————————–
Yeah, it took me a little while to get my head around this as well, but it’s actually very true and not misleading at all. Most of the times you drive the car you will get much more than 314 MPG. By not using any gas for most trips, you are getting infinite MPG.
So every time you drive the car, if you think you’re getting 314 MPG, that is correct on average. If a person is interested in decreasing foreign oil imports, then 314 MPG is the most straightforward and fair way to compare the Volt with a gas engine car. It’s not misleading. It really is that much of a game changer.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
#103 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy:
But after looking at a group photo of the muppets I think the whole front end looks more like Beaker… His nose sticks straight out, Gonzo’s has a huge curl in it.
Are you thinking of Gonzo?
Besides, then I can tell “Toyota to stop it with the Beaker nose thing already” which is very close to what I wrote.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
BDP #18
“Agree with #13. MPG doesn’t overcome it’s ugly factor.”
*** *** ***
Nor the fact that it can’t be reasonably driven w/o gasoline. It’s an improvement over the current Prius, but it’s no Volt.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
#88 statik Says: “It’s all good…we should just move on, for our sanity and the board’s, lol.”
————————————————————————————–
Well, I hope I’m not coming off as being stubborn. I really did read your posts. I wasn’t aware of the different software for the Prius plug-in. I also enjoyed reading the popular mechanics link.
Don’t give up on me.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
The easiest way to get an EEstor battery charged in 5 minutes has been suggested before. A second set of EEstor batteries are slow charged at home or at a “filling station.” When you need the 5 minute “fill,” the transfer of power can be accomplished quickly between both sets of EEstor capacitor batteries.
Since Tesla requires 220 volt 70 amp service for a 3.5 hour charge (220 mile range.) Would EEstore batteries require 490 amp service for 30 minutes or 2940 amp service for 5 minutes?
You can imagine the neighborhood brownouts occurring when trying to charge EEstor batteries from the power grid in 5 minutes!
October 17th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
#101 john1701a Says: (on the Prius Plig-In) “And of course, the upgrade provides a MPG BOOST rather than the misleading “range” value quoted here far too often.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, that was my impression as well, but I wasn’t able to find any specifica data. Do you have any links that show details on the mpg boost?
October 17th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
In regards to Plug in Prius vs. Volt avg mpg.
I still very much question the volt’s ability to average 50 mpg after customer depletion.
Does anyone have any real world data(i.e. mule test drive, engineering data, GM engineer’s in depth discussion) that would support this?
Is there a reasonably sized (over 2800#) erev running anywhere on the planet that has achieved 50 mpg average?
Lyle, can you ask your engineering contacts to explain how this is possible?
Or is this really a best case-flat highway-55 mph-with a tailwind “hyper-miler” number?
I just don’t see it. Not with the current ICE selected. Not AVERAGE mpg. My guess would be 35 to 40 mpg average TOPS.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
#91 MikeinAtl
I’ve seen the ads for the Coleman supercap screwdriver but didn’t know it was Eestor powered. Are you sure about that? If so, I have a little more faith in the Eestor story…
October 17th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
#88 statik Says: “It’s all good…we should just move on, for our sanity and the board’s, lol.”
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#108 Dave G
Well, I hope I’m not coming off as being stubborn. I really did read your posts. I wasn’t aware of the different software for the Prius plug-in. I also enjoyed reading the popular mechanics link.
Don’t give up on me.
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Hehe, no worries. We have distinct positions, and I think we both got our message out. We both certainly know how to get along on the forum ‘under duress’ and hit ‘the reset button’ from time to time.
I’ll catch you on the next one my friend.
October 17th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
#111 carcus
In regards to Plug in Prius vs. Volt avg mpg.
I still very much question the volt’s ability to average 50 mpg after customer depletion.
Does anyone have any real world data(i.e. mule test drive, engineering data, GM engineer’s in depth discussion) that would support this?
Is there a reasonably sized (over 2800#) erev running anywhere on the planet that has achieved 50 mpg average?
Lyle, can you ask your engineering contacts to explain how this is possible?
Or is this really a best case-flat highway-55 mph-with a tailwind “hyper-miler” number?
I just don’t see it. Not with the current ICE selected. Not AVERAGE mpg. My guess would be 35 to 40 mpg average TOPS.
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I really don’t understand it either. I’ve even come to grips with the fact that the new Prius probably is going to have some issues hitting 50MPG. I’m not sure how the Volt will do it…especially with the extra weight. I guess there could be some extra efficiency with the configuration of the drive system….but is that really enough? I dunno.
Myself I’m just going to sit tight and wait, I can give them the benefit of the doubt…for now, I don’t think anyone is qualified to confirm or deny the claim at this point. I’m cautiously optimistic, lol.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
#31 Cautious Fan:
Thanks for the excellent link.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
#96 fishmahn
Thanks.
I am very new to the whole EEStor thing. I was just hoping to get some experts bantering about the possibilities.
#113 George B
The Coleman is certainly being represented as an EEstor product. Google “Coleman EEStor Screwdriver”. There are lots of articles.
Also the “US Dept of Defense Wearable Power Competition” just concluded last week and the winner took home a million dollar first prize. More interesting reading on how the military plans to use this new technology.
October 17th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
On the 50mpg steady-state..
The Cruze is supposed to be getting in the mid 40’s, right? Now sure the Volt is going to be quite a bit heavier, but with steady cruising weight doesn’t really matter except for the increased rolling resistance (assume grade loads even out over time.)
So what advantage does the Volt have over the Cruze? Well to start, it’s supposed to be more aerodynamic. The Cruze has an automatic transmission that’s about what? 65% to 75% efficient? And in steady cruising the engine will be running in a load area that is not really in a good place in it’s BSFC map.
In the Volt the ICE will be powering a 90-ish % efficient generator powering a high-90% efficiency electric motor, giving a high-80’s % efficient “transmission.” And then remember the ICE will be running at an efficient point in it’s fuel usage curve, probably Atkinson cycle, and using the battery to smooth out fuel-wasting power demand surges.
I’d certainly hope they could find a 10-15% mpg improvement with all that whiz-bang behind it…
October 17th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
#115 Statik,
I’d like to be optimistic. But that went out the window when $25 Billion of my money got forced into the equation.
RETOOLING or REFOOLING?
I don’t think automakers should get one thin dime of government backed loans until they have independently tested working prototypes of the “retooled” models. Strict verification of manufacturer claims must be implemented prior to loans.
But, of course, this won’t happen. And 80% + of the money will get pissed right down the drain, just like most any other government project.
The more I see and read, the more I think GM should have had 10 more years of development on a pure EV under it’s belt. Time will tell.
If the imiev is kicking the volt’s a$$ 5 years from now, I guess we’ll know.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Yup, that Toyota proboscis is a hideous thing, I think it is an unwritten mandate, make your cars ugly or we will make life tough on you. Sort of levels out the playing field. People will walk up to a Toyota and think, maybe I will buy American.
As for the Great Canadian Highways, I thought I drove fast? Oh My! They may be posted in kmh, however they drive in mph! Great roads & drivers. Even with the Moose hazard I never see any skid marks on the Highways. I think they drive so fast so they can get home before dark. That way they avoid the nighttime moose. With the short days… they got to drive mighty fast!!!
Oh, I have got to get me one of those Colman screwdrivers. I may not be able to afford a Volt, however a screwdriver I can!
Red HHR (on moose patrol)
October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Rob #118
“And then remember the ICE will be running at an efficient point in it’s fuel usage curve, probably Atkinson cycle, and using the battery to smooth out fuel-wasting power demand surges.”
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I not sure an Atkinson cycle engine will be able to deliver the output needed at the modest rpm the Volts ICE will operate at. IIRC GM already stated previously that the 1.0L 3cyl T originally planned was an Otto cycle engine. What allows the Prius to use this engine is that almost every change in load scenario is assisted by a 300 lb/ft electric motor.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I believe the competition for the Prius will be the Honda Insight and the Cruze, all of which run on petrol/gas.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Yet another model that follows the low drag design theme…..
2009 Volkswagen Scirocco
* Turbo 2.0-liter inline-4
* 200 hp; 206 lb-ft of torque
* Dual-clutch transmission ~ six-speed manual
* 0-62 mph in 7.2 seconds
Development boss Ulrich Hackenberg points out that the Scirocco takes just 6.0 seconds to accelerate from 30-70 mph in 4th gear, which places the new coupe among some rather special machinery. Speed tops out at 146 mph.
…car will cost more than $40,000 in Europe
Early in 2009 a further two engines will join the Scirocco line-up: a 1.4-litre TSI 160 PS petrol and a 2.0-litre TDI common rail diesel unit with 140 PS and a combined economy of around 52 mpg. Both will come as standard with a six-speed manual gearbox, while the 1.4-litre TSI will also be offered with Volkswagen’s new seven-speed DSG ’box.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/VW%20Scirocco.jpg
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/VW%20Scirocco%20image.jpg
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About the new Insight… what’s with the beak? Afffffffff.. laaaakkk (snort!)
=D~
October 17th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
#97, Koz: Dagwood55, Go buy your Prius for $22,500. Good luck!
Toyota’s current production allows 180K to the US per year. They are adding a plant for 2009 and another for 2010. They’ll be able to provide nearly 600K Priuses per year in the US market in 2010.
Gas recently dropped to $2.60/gallon. At that price, back in April or so, I was offered a Prius for less than list.
Toyota will probably feel pressured to be as competitive with the Insight II as possible.
These factors add up to, yes, I’ll be able to get a Prius for $22,500. Maybe even less.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Wow, what a great opportunity for me, I really hate Toyota by itself anyway. But I despise the Prius. But I have to hand it to Toyota this time. I’m impressed, they really did it!! I can’t believe it!! They took the ugliest car in the world and made it uglier!!!!!!! It sucks. Is it still made from cardboard, pop cans and tracing paper?? Down with the evil empire!!!!! Long live GM!!!! Take care all!!!
October 18th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Prius = fugly
Volt is certainly much better looking (not as good looking as I’d like) AND, more importantly, it has the better tech. Plug it in!