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Chevy Volt HVAC Development: ICE Will Run From the Start at Less Than 40 Below Zero

October 16th, 2008 | Posted in: Engineering, Features

In the Chevy Volt, there is a special need to run necessary hardware using electric power only and not from the combustion engine. Also to keep range adequate, there is a need to keep electric draw low. As such, the HVAC system might need special engineering. I asked GM hybrid vehicle integration director Mickey Bly about that.

How far along are you on the construction of the Volt’s interior HVAC system?
Were going to pull a lot of our learning from the 2-mode hybrid that we’ve been doing, both the rear and front drive and use a lot of that same technology for the Volt.

We have to reuse as much of that technology as possible which is high voltage AC compressor. The heating system is fairly traditional but when you’re running on battery we’re now going to have to introduce some kind of new heating element much like you do on diesels in Europe. Where you have some type of electric, they call them PTC’s a thermal conduction material that lets you have electric heat supplement in the vehicle. Obviously when it gets very cold, we’ll have to turn on the ICE, because electric heat will not provide enough heat at 40 below (zero) or those types of temperature.

So all of those things are coming together. We’ve done a lot of modelling work. In the HVAC and cooling, the models are very very good and we pretty much don’t do a lot of in-vehicle testing until we get to that integration level vehicle. The systems will be there but we don’t do a lot of engineering around those. The real reason for that is the final vehicle has such an impact on passenger comfort. We call it the greenhouse which is all of the windows, the shapes the sizes, how much volume there is in the vehicle. When your running a Malibu (mule) its going to be a totally different system when your are running a Volt once we get that because of different solar loads and cooling effect. All of those things are coming together.

Can you transpose some of the same components you are using in the 2-modes so that your production capable suppliers are already lined up?
Yes definitely the technology. As far as the suppliers, I would not want you to assume we’ll use the same suppliers. We try to make sure we have capable suppliers that can meet our requirements. In the area of HVAC there are a lot of very good suppliers out there now. In fact, we’re using different suppliers within our 2-modes.

Posted by: Lyle

122 Responses to “Chevy Volt HVAC Development: ICE Will Run From the Start at Less Than 40 Below Zero”

Jim D Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am

Facinating!
Earlier, I had hoped we would be getting detailed reports on the Mules…..range, power, etc.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:19 am

Fine, if this system is ready we could assume other are too.
thanks Lyle.

JC

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Jay Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:32 am

I am curious as to how much draw the HVAC will have on the batteries, and how will that affect the overal milage on battery power.

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GXT Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:41 am

Here is an interesting chart of the mean number of days that the minimum temp is 32F or less in various US cities:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/mnls32.txt
This is a bit colder than the 40 degrees so it is understating the number of days but at the same time it is a minimum so it is overstating the number of days. I’d guess the net is a slight overstatement.

Looks like GM would be wise to focus on California (but not Bishop and Mount Shasta!). It is suprising how many other cities/states have 1/3 to 1/2 of their days falling in this cold range.

This will impact a lot of people. I would not be too happy if 1/3 to 1/2 of my days I was essentially driving an expensive gas car that happens to also be a battery warmer.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:43 am

This is a good article, some interesting info, thanks Lyle.

———————————-
How far along are you on the construction of the Volt’s interior HVAC system?

“Were going to pull a lot of our learning from the 2-mode hybrid that we’ve been doing…So all of those things are coming together. We’ve done a lot of modelling work. In the HVAC and cooling, the models are very very good and we pretty much don’t do a lot of in-vehicle testing until we get to that integration level vehicle”
—-
Until we get to that integration level vehicle? And your still ‘learning and testing’? What is that?

But we do have ‘very very’ good models…thats like twice as good as just one very! Although, not nearly as good as, “yes, we are done”

I sense more people will be arriving in Statik’s camp of “No way in heck actual orders will be filling in November 2010″ It is almost comical now, reminds me of the ‘true to the concept’ company line…right up to the leaked evidence proved otherwise.

People still think GM is pushing a car out in 24 months? It’s time for a reality check. This project is no where near where it should be at this point…for a conventional new vehicle rollout.

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Jerome Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am

#4, I think they are talking about 40 below zero, not below 40F.

Living in AZ, I’m worried about A/C and the impact on range.

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noel park Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:57 am

#6 Jerome:

Right. You beat me to it. Thanks.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:57 am

@6 Jerome,

>> #4, I think they are talking about 40 below zero, not below 40F.

Yeah, but -40F, or -40C? It’s all pretty vague, and the difference is rather signficant.

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Aspherical Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:04 am

To #8 Mike-O-Matic and ALL

“Yeah, but -40F, or -40C? It’s all pretty vague, and the difference is rather signficant.”

-40F EQUALS -40C

Typically all automotive parts are tested at -40C. For those who prefer Fahrenheit, that means -40F as well…

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Bram Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am

At -40C you should never leave your house.
It would be dangerous.
Those are South Pole temperatures.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am

#9 Aspherical

To #8 Mike-O-Matic and ALL

“Yeah, but -40F, or -40C? It’s all pretty vague, and the difference is rather signficant.”

Actually, -40F = -40C.

———————————————–
EDIT: Gah, you got me by that much. Looks like someone is a non-US resident, heeh. Or just loves metric conversions. (Quick Bram, you can still edited that out, lol).

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Cautious Fan Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:15 am

With PTC’s, the Volt will have near instant heat. No need to wait 5 minutes for the engine to warm up. That saves on gas and should make folks more comfortable. Could be a cool selling point.

In traditional cars, the heat comes form waste heat generated by the engine. For the Volt, sounds like it comes from electric only, at least 99% of the time. So running the heater will reduce range/efficiency of the Volt whereas in a traditional car, running the heater shouldn’t affect mpg since it was waste heat anyway.

Just some pros & cons

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Aspherical Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:19 am

#11 statik

“Gah, you got me by that much. Looks like someone is a non-US resident, heeh. Or just loves metric conversions. (Quick Bram, you can still edited that out, lol)”

Hehe, I just love metric conversions.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am

#10 Bram

At -40C you should never leave your house.
It would be dangerous.
Those are South Pole temperatures.
————————————————————–
Nice…I like that transition.
+1

Side note: Does anyone else have a problem with that dash? That has got to just be a mock-up as well…right? I’m not looking forward to navigating that thing…or looking at it (white?).

Small labelled, touch sensitive buttons I don’t think are something that is all that hot, or practical…but it looks like it might just be molded plastic with letters stamped on, and not the real thing. (I can hope)

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Aspherical Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:32 am

#14 Statik

“Does anyone else have a problem with that dash? ”

I do. I have learned to go by feel to operate the heater and radio while I’m driving. If I get a Volt, I will learn to use that dash, but I have a feeling the first couple of weeks are going to be frustrating (that is if I don’t crash while trying to figure what the hell I was doing).

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Bryan Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:37 am

I think they should run the ICE whenever you need heating or cooling. Just to remind people that they are using more energy than they may need to just to be a little more comfortable, when they might be able to do without for short trips.

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coach Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:38 am

just make sure that Volt’s AC will be good enough for Sarah Palin when she returns to her beloved Alaska after the election !

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omegaman66 Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am

Take my name of the list the dash sucks. I will never by another GM product again! I am so pissed. hahahaha

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:40 am

CONFIRMATION on NEXT GEN PRIUS!: (from jalopnik):

That link I posted in the last thread is pictures of the next gen Prius.

“We sat down with Toyota PR this morning, showed them the pictures and they’ve confirmed that yes, this is the new 2010 Toyota Prius set to be revealed officially at the Detroit Auto Show in January. And yeah, that’s all they’re willing to tell us at this time”

http://jalopnik.com/5064471/2010-toyota-prius-versus-old-toyota-prius

Link to the 4 pics:
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/toyotaprius10/

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:46 am

#12

FYI, OPEL cars have on option a “quick heat” button using it seems Parrallel Thermal Conductivity i.e. a ceramic heater

It works quite well by very low outside temps like -20°C (BTW -40° C is found in center Siberia, but not very often in Western Europe, the lowest temperature observed in Belgium during the last 60 years is – 30.1C in the coldest part of the country.)

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Edwin Mang Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:50 am

With the new combo battery gennerator in the inital stages of concept at the government labs for space missions the third stage of the volt could get 160 mile range and cost half the HP to run that should make the future bright plus the battery/ gen combo cuts weight 50% and opens the battery area for more folks to ride .

Neet

God Bless
Edwin Mang Jr.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Edwin Mang #20.

……………..inital stages of concept……

—–
That sounds very early in the development cycle.

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Van Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

How much range will be lost by operating the AC unit? Lets just say a person could drive 40 MPH and go 40 miles in EV mode, “burning” 8 KWH of energy without the AC. That is highly optimistic, 32 miles at 32 MPH is much more likely. But I digress.

Lets say the AC unit uses 2 KW to operate. It probably operates over a range, so lets call this the average usage level. So if you operated it for the whole hour, it would burn up 2 KWH of juice and reduce your range from 40 miles to 30 miles, or more realistically, from 32 miles to 24 miles.

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Grant Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

This is one case where I actually won’t get flamed for bringing up my preference for solar power. I *do* understand how little a charge would come from it, please don’t start yelling at me. But I use solar for heat and electricity at home, and I can tell you that at little as 40 watts will run a small heater without issue. So for those who think battery warming will take a huge amount of power, don’t worry. The roof panel will most definitely be able to handle that, at least, and will probably have more then enough left for the interior and the radio.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Side note, but Volt related…sorta:

GM announced that they are ‘indefinitely’ laying off 600 workers at the Volt’s Detroit-Hamtramck plant.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081016/gm_factories.html?.v=2

“The indefinite layoffs affect 700 workers at GM’s Pontiac, Mich., pickup truck plant, spokesman Chris Lee said Thursday. Another 500 workers at the Detroit-Hamtramck car assembly plant, and 400 at a two-seat sports car assembly plant in Wilmington, Del., will also be out of work.”

“GM says it will reduce assembly line speeds at the Pontiac plant starting Feb. 1, and at Detroit-Hamtramck on Jan. 12. The Wilmington plant will see its two shifts cut to just one on Dec. 8.”

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

If heating is electric, I would think heated seats should be standard, as this would probably be more efficient. Why heat the whole cabin up to 70°F, when you can heat the driver and passenger much more directly through the seats?

In the end, heated seats might even be less expensive, since the main heating system could be smaller and less expensive.

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Jim M Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

I recall Fairbanks hit -50 F something just this last winter. I looked up the 40 year record for North America, which is just shy of -80 F or -62 C. Mostly mountains in the Rockies or odd parts of Alaska. -40 is the standard test limit according to the Society of Automotive Engineers.

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

I plan on purchasing an extra long extension cord to allow the Volt to come up to temperature before unplugging..

Let see now…say it takes 10 minutes to warm up the interior when its -10 F (-40F/C is darn cold and in WI, you might get a day or two of -20–25F, but -40F/C seems extreme)…back to my extension cord calculations…so if I average say 40 mph for 10 minutes, I would need a cord length = 40 mi/hr * 1/6 * 5280ft/mi = 35,200 feet. (I think Home Depot sells a 100′ cord for about $15, so I need about 352 cords * $15 = $5,280 {wow! 5280 is one mile is that just a coincidence?)

Anyway, off I go to Home Depot….

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

#23 Grant Says: “This is one case where I actually won’t get flamed for bringing up my preference for solar power.”
————————————————————————————–
If the solar Volt option isn’t expensive, I would buy it. The problem is, it will be expensive, probably around $4000. And given that it doesn’t charge the battery significantly, there is no pay back. It’s just a simple comfort feature that will happen to be very expensive.

Oh, and by the way, it takes a whole lot of energy to make solar cells, so much so that the break even point for most solar panels is around 2 years. So if you add solar cells to a car roof as just a comfort feature, you’re wasting a whole bunch of energy and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. So this is not a green option. It wastes energy.

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Jeff M Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Up here in New Hampshire (at least in Southern NH) I don’t ever remember it getting below -40F (maybe with wind chill but cars don’t feel that nor do folks inside a closed car)! Burrrrr!!

Hopefully the Volt will have heated seats, at least in the front, so the inside air temp doesn’t need to be maintained as high.

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

GM is moving up the date for closing the Janesville, WI plant by about a year. GM wants to shutter the plant on Dec 23rd, 2008 (Merry Xmas!)

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ThombDbhomb Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

#23 Grant

I also use solar for home heating. On cold days, the sun’s energy hits my roof and south-facing walls, then conducts into my house. It is too bad internet flaming can’t be used for home heating.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Solar heating and cooling would contribute to reduced drain on the batteries and would reduce my fuel consumption by a quart a day. I can see a payback in 12 years.
Take Care,
TED

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

23 Grant

When its -40F/C its usually cloudy or dark.

If the sun is out, you would actually get more energy VIA the greenhouse effect of the Volts windows. One thing GM may consider is using more insulation on the Volt. This would help with both heating and cooling energy requirements, since you do not have as much waste.

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dagwood55 Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

It’s not common but temps do fall below -40F (or -40C, if you like) here in MN. At those temps, sturdy vinyl seats feel like a plank.

I think there’s possibly some misinterpretation of Micky Bly’s comment… I doubt that he meant the engine would be programmed to run for heat at -40F… I expect he meant to point out -40F as an example of a very cold temp where their electric heating system would be ineffective. It could well be that they’ll need engine heat well above -40F.

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THOM Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Another “excuse”… they can just use the heat off the battery packs (and they will get warm)

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Exp_EngTech Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

This is good to know I guess.

GM shouldn’t bother selling Volt’s in countries where it can get this nippy. What’s the point? No operation on battery only.

Bummer for you Statik

hehe

Just kidding.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

#36 THOM

Another “excuse”… they can just use the heat off the battery packs (and they will get warm)
————————————
I’m not sure what you mean….what is the excuse here? Excuse for what? I’m not following you.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

#37 Exp_EngTech

This is good to know I guess.

GM shouldn’t bother selling Volt’s in countries where it can get this nippy. What’s the point? No operation on battery only.

Bummer for you Statik
hehe
Just kidding.
——————————————————–
Indeed. Nice day today though, only -15, of course it is the fall still. I only had to put on one sweater under my jacket.

But seriously, they can still sell it here. Because of the cold and ‘Hoth’ like conditions when the sun goes down, us Canadians have built a huge and complicated unground labyrinth of roads that allows us to stay virtually indoors from September to May.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

#38 Statik

I read somewhere that the VCLS (Vast Canadian Labyrinth System) was constructed using “Horta” Technology.

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Ken Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

They need to make the HVAC system programmable so that the car can cool down or warm up while still plugged in so it will be ready to drive when needed. For example, here in Texas it can be warm at night in the summer. The car could be programmed to be ready to go at say 6AM. The car would calculate based on interior and ambient temperature how soon to crank on the A/C to have the car a comfortable 70F by 6 AM when you unplug it and head off to work. And in winter it would preheat the car. That way the batteries won’t be drained for the initial cooling or heating demand. I bet they are already planning this…

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stas peterson Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

GM engineering may not have the time to add a standard warm up/cool down cycle from plug-in power for daily commutes, but I Would think it would be a very nice feature.

If you leave home everyday at 7:00AM, the Volt could be programmed to warm/cool the car, batteries from the plug-in power cord at 6:45 AM or whatever you set teh prewarm “alarm clock” to do. No different than an automatic coffee maker prepared the night before to brew at a preset time.

But it would make sure you didn’t lose substantial range just making the vehicle and battery packs up/down to operating temperatures. Here in the Arizona dessert, cooling a hot car in the afternoon after a days work to go home, would save substantial power, if you had it attached to a plug in the company parking lot.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

#39 Exp_EngTech

#38 Statik: I read somewhere that the VCLS (Vast Canadian Labyrinth System) was constructed using “Horta” Technology.

——————————————

If we only had someone to ‘connect mentally’ with the Horta and form some kind of symbiotic relationship.

/oh yeah, I saw what you did there, (=

…and I offer you this:
“I’m a doctor not a bricklayer!”

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MarkinWI Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Lyle,

Are you hearing anything from your GM contacts about CNG (compressed natural gas)? There is a lot of advertising now, and I mean other than T. Boone. Is GM working on something, or is this just the Natural Gas industry hoping?

-MarkinWI

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

#31 ThombDbhomb Says: “It is too bad internet flaming can’t be used for home heating”
————————————————————————————–
Right. With all the hot air we create here, they could heat a Manhattan skyscraper in February.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#43 MarkinWI Says: “Are you hearing anything from your GM contacts about CNG (compressed natural gas)? There is a lot of advertising now, and I mean other than T. Boone. Is GM working on something, or is this just the Natural Gas industry hoping?”
————————————————————————————–
CNG makes no sense.

CNG has the worst emissions. CNG is worse that gasoline. CNG is worse than fuel cells (a.k.a. Fool Sells). CNG is worse than diesel.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf
(See page 4)

CNG requires a completely new infrastructure (like fool sells). Probably take 25 years to roll out.

CNG engines are extremely inefficient. That’s why emissions are so high.

Now, if you come from big oil, and you see the writing on the wall – oil is running out – then you would think CNG is great. It will allow you to hold on to your monopoly. Electricity and ethanol can be made made from lots of sources,
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
so that’s way too much competition for an oil man.

But if you’re not an oil man, CNG is a really bad idea.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

@ #9 Aspherical:

>> -40F EQUALS -40C

D’oh!! I didn’t even bother to do the conversion, but of course you’re right.

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Big B Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Since we’re plugging the Volt in to charge it at night, why not have a reservoir of oil (or something) that can be heated at the same time. This heated liquid could then be circulated for heat until the ICE is required.

Canadian Prairie Lad (where the cold wind blows)

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

@42 Statik,

>>…and I offer you this: “I’m a doctor not a bricklayer!”

Of course Bones is well-known for his numerous “I’m a doctor, not a _____” lines, but how ’bout this? DeForest Kelley was also in numerous westerns. A couple of weeks ago, I saw him in an episode of “Bonanza” (entitled ‘The Decision’) in which he played a town doctor accused of killing a man. In this episode, he had the line… (wait for it)… “I’m NOT a doctor, I’m a convicted murderer”!!

How’s that for irony? I got a really good belly laugh, when he said it!

@ #47 Big B,

>> why not have a reservoir of oil (or something) that can
>> be heated at the same time

A couple of reasons pop to mind… added cost, complexity, the volume used up, additional weight. I think these would comfortably outweigh any benefits of a ‘heat reservoir’ approach.

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kubel Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

I don’t think he meant the ICE would engage at -41C and below, I think he was giving -40C as an example of an extreme temperature where the electric heating would be insufficient to warm the car. The genset will probably come on at a much warmer temperature, probably around -20C.

It should also be noted that most antifreeze (at 50/50) freezes up at -40C, so running the engine could lead to overheating, ironically.

I still think this is a stupid solution, and should only be used if the consumer demands the extra heat. As long as this is a consumer comfort issue, the consumer should be able to decide if he/she wants the genset running to give more heat- not the computer.

My solution is simple. Heat the car (option that can be set by consumer) while the car is plugged in and has access to external power.

Since this car has so many options and a lot of consumer preferences that could be changed, I really hope GM is as transparent with these settings as they have been with all the Volt updates. The center touchscreen console has the potential to be used as a GUI for all sorts of advanced settings (like whether or not to engage ICE for heat, whether or not to pre-heat, what time to pre-heat, etc…). With a bit of clever programming, GM could make the most customizable automobile on the road.

So in other words- let the computer control most aspects automatically for those that just want to drive, but let the consumers override settings through the touchscreen if they wish, to perfectly customize their car to meet their needs.

Also, please add a multi-card reader so the Volt can access music from modern technology like SD cards. CDs are becoming an ineffective form of media storage.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Would a separate (smaller) battery pack work for HVAC?
Probably not, but thought I would ask.

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Gary Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

24 Statik:

It looks like nobody went for your negative subject-changing bait.

Oops, I did.

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David Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

#25 Dave G says: “If heating is electric, I would think heated seats should be standard, as this would……….”

Take a look at the pic of the dash. It looks like there is an icon for heating seats.

All great minds think alike eh?

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Bill Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

#19, Jean-Charles, correct me if I am wrong but I believe a PTC is short for Positive Temperature Coefficient heater. They have a blend of materials that cause a rapid increase in resistance at a given temperature – sort of a built in thermostat.

http://www.europeanthermodynamics.com/heaters/The%20Principles%20of%20PTC%20Heating.pdf

-Bill

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Dave K. Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

If you live in an area where temperatures are routinely under -20 degrees it may be best to stay conventional with your transportation system.

It may be possible to have a smaller ‘reserve’ battery of some kind to use as a main preheat. Or an optional solar blanket system for preheat.

_____________________________________

Here is some positive news:

Thursday October 16, 3:12 pm ET

Oil prices tumble below $69 on bigger-than-expect jumps in US crude, gasoline supplies

NEW YORK (AP) — Oil briefly plunged below $69 a barrel Thursday,
bringing its price to less than half its July record high after the government
reported massive increases in U.S. crude and gasoline supplies.

http://garfwod.250free.com/Oct16_08%20market.jpg

A higher market AND lower fuel prices.

Go Volt.. Go!

=D~

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Van Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

The electric heaters which heat the same heater core the ICE radiator water heats will probably be around 200 watts for an approximate 400 watt draw when heating. The seat heaters would be an additional draw of about 60 watts each.

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old man Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

I would think the owner should be able to pre-program the computer to read the temp. of out side air and then [If car is plugged in] on preset days and times [mon.-fri.] [7.00am-7.15 am] as examples.
Heat or cool the seats and interior as needed
[warming the steering wheel would also be nice]
defrost the windows
heat the battery.
Seems simple to me

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Eliezer Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

BREAKING NEWS
——————————–

2010 TOYOTA PRIUS REVEALED:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_toyota_prius_revealed_car_news

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Van Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

My 2 cents is the 2011 Volt looks like more car than the 2010 Prius. But you can get only so far on looks, at some point you have to perform. Time will tell…

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

#51 Gary

24 Statik: It looks like nobody went for your negative subject-changing bait.
Oops, I did.
——————————————-

***Christopher Walken voice***
“…I’m supposed to say what… like I don’t get it right?”

***Mike Myer’s voice***
“You very big, I’m very small.”

http://videodetective.com/photos/035/000149_26.jpg

/you caught me, you are onto my destructive plan

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Tom Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Automatically preconditioning the interior of the car for a pre-set time [if plugged in] should be no problem at all.

For a software engineer, such a feature would be so simple to add that it’s basically a freebie and doesn’t even need to be discussed.

More of a concern though is the interface to the feature. If the car has a well-designed, pleasant LCD screen menu system, then by all means, add as many features as you want. Otherwise, it may just add clutter and confusion and should be dropped even if it’s useful to some small percentage of people.

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jefro Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

I can’t figure out that dash!

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Ray Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Up North here in Central Alberta Canada… born and raised… I have seen temps from + 35 C in the summer to weeks of -28 to -35 C overnight in the winter with the occational -40C or colder.. With Global warming… I don’t think we have been below -35 for more than one or two days in the winter in the last 5 years….
I am all for software programable heating/cooling.. While the Volt is plugged in… it could warm the seats, interior, clear the windows and warm the battery and the engine oil up… Set it for an hour or so before you leave time… all toasty… charged up and ready to go.

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omegaman66 Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

When the car is parked it will be plugged in. Heating the battery even in extreme cases and heating the car interior or cooling the cars interior shouldn’t be a problem while at home or friends house. Most people that live up north already have experience with plugging their cars in or removing the battery so that it doesn’t freeze. I don’t see what the big deal is. ICE runs in lue of the battery in some cases to heat things up and then the battery kicks in.

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noel park Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

#57 Statik:

OK, I’ll fall for it too. Does anyone know what they are building at Hamtramck now? Cobalts? Nothing like keeping the experienced workers together for the next very high tech model.

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Red HHR Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

40 Below! Most cars would not start with out a plug!

With its big battery the plug in Volt would start… Unplugged!

I know there is a joke in there somewhere…

Red HHR (unplugged)

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

#62 noel park

#57 Statik:

OK, I’ll fall for it too. Does anyone know what they are building at Hamtramck now? Cobalts? Nothing like keeping the experienced workers together for the next very high tech model.
——————————————-
Right now they have DTS and Lucerne as a ongoing concern through 2010.
The MPV7 was ’supposed to begin in ‘09, but that is done.

Epsilon platform for 2012…but what value can you really put on that?

Check page 11 of this UAW PDF:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJ-GM_UAW20070928_terms.pdf

I’m assuming they just have the one line going, with plans to demo/changeover one for the Volt starting in Q1 ‘09…and leave the third line idled.

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N Riley Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

Just one more bit of information about the Volt for us to comment about. Some good positive comments and as always, we have the negative comments. Comments are comments and we will take them for what they are worth. Nearly nothing. We all have opinions and they will change more times than someone’s (I won’t mention a name) economic plan. Thank God for politics because without someone injecting a little in here now and again we would have to just talk about cars.

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js1219 Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

#28 Dave G Says:

“Oh, and by the way, it takes a whole lot of energy to make solar cells, so much so that the break even point for most solar panels is around 2 years. So if you add solar cells to a car roof as just a comfort feature, you’re wasting a whole bunch of energy and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. So this is not a green option. It wastes energy.”

The solar option on vehicles will most likely be thin film. Thin film makes up for it’s energy draw in 1 year, not 2. And if you want to get that technical, then every single part of the Volt is ‘wasting a whole bunch of energy and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. So this is not a green option. It wastes energy.’

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Tom Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

To the guy who has solar panels at home and wants one for his Volt … okay, you clearly understand that it wouldn’t provide much electricity. But given the choice between adding to your existing solar setup at home, and getting a roof panel for the Volt, why would you do the latter? If you add to the one at home, you can use the electricity for anything (including powering your Volt) and you have the added advantage that you can park your Volt in your garage and still be able to make use of your expensive panel.

The roof solar panel sill makes zero sense to me.

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Grizzly Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

GM should have a fairly good concept of what the AC will require as the EV-1 had air conditioning. I thought that Frank Weber stated quite some time ago that the Volt would use a low draw A/C system from Behr of Germany. Heat may be another issue because I don’t think the EV-1 had heat given where it was sold in Ca and Az.

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Koz Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

jst219 #66 & Dave G

And maybe their produced in Iceland, so no CO2. The energy expenditure argument for solar array prodcution is halfbaked

Kinda depends on what PV tech is used and where (electricity production content) they are made.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:08 pm

I don’t think this issue is for when the Volt is plugged in.
It’s for when it is not plugged in.
I live in Connecticut. It may not be as cold as where Statik lives,
but I have seen -17F (-27C). Cold enough if you ask me.
My car can be warm when I get into it, but how long do you think it will take to cool off once I am unplugged? Not very long at -17F (-27C).
How does the heat work then? My guess is on battery until the ICE kicks in many miles down the road.

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Tom Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

@ 70 Rashiid:

Of course the heat is battery powered and will stay on once you unplug the car to start driving it. How else would it work?

The Volt can drive 40 miles on battery power (8 kWh). If you drive 40 miles/hour, the battery will last for an hour. If you have a 1 kW heater (seems like a lot), it will decrease your battery power by 1 kWh in that amount of time. That means you decrease your range by roughly 12% = 5 miles. Put another way, the ICE turns on after 53 minutes instead of 60 minutes. Hardly a deal breaker in my opinion.

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canehdian Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

#49 Kubel
I agree completely.

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Jeff Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

The feature I want is to be able to program the heated seats to be warm for me at a precise time, like 8:00AM. That way I unplug it, and get in my toasty Volt without having to worry about it being cold or the battery being warmed up. Is there any word on this feature?

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gsned57 Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

This topic really seems to bring out our neighbors to the north! Wouldn’t a bottle of vodka at the destination be a more efficient way to warm the body? Actually, why are you guys so interested in America getting off oil? the way I see it we buy most of our imported oil from you guys and if Global warming does really happen Disneyland may move from Anaheim to Vancouver! But then again who wants bacon, hockey, and Maple syrup when it’s 70 F (20 C?) so I guess you loose out on those exports.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

#67 Tom Says: “To the guy who has solar panels at home and wants one for his Volt … okay, you clearly understand that it wouldn’t provide much electricity. But given the choice between adding to your existing solar setup at home, and getting a roof panel for the Volt, why would you do the latter? If you add to the one at home, you can use the electricity for anything (including powering your Volt) and you have the added advantage that you can park your Volt in your garage and still be able to make use of your expensive panel.

The roof solar panel sill makes zero sense to me.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, well said.

For the time being, solar panels belong on houses, not cars.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

#66 js1219 Says: “The solar option on vehicles will most likely be thin film. Thin film makes up for it’s energy draw in 1 year, not 2. And if you want to get that technical, then every single part of the Volt is ‘wasting a whole bunch of energy and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. So this is not a green option. It wastes energy.’”
————————————————————————————–
Compared to a regular car, the Volt will save much more energy over it’s lifetime than it takes to manufacture, so this is a net energy savings.

By contrast, the Volt solar roof option is just for comfort, so it doesn’t save any energy. So the high amount of energy to produce the cells is not offset by anything, producing a net energy waste.

My point is that people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction that anything with solar cells is good for the environment. In the case of the Volt solar roof option, it’s quite the reverse.

Now if people want the Volt solar roof option for comfort, or because it’s high tech, and aren’t so concerned about the environment, then that’s OK. But if people go for the Volt solar roof option because they think it’s green, then they are fooling themselves.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

#67 Tom
#75 Dave G

Yes, well said.

For the time being, solar panels belong on houses, not cars.
—————————————————-

I’m going to echo Dave G’s point, it would be much easier, efficient and much cheaper for me to add capacity to my house solar system to power up the Volt. Solar on the roof of a car is not going to be a ‘net positive’ proposition financially, for a long, long, long time.

/it is cool though

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RB Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Off topic — WSJ is reporting tonight the GM/Chrysler merger discussions are well advanced, that lenders are pushing for it, and that GM is thinking of having a merger agreement perhaps by the end of October. Attractions are $11B in Chrysler cash and possible $10B annual savings.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:56 pm

#71 Tom Says: “The Volt can drive 40 miles on battery power (8 kWh). If you drive 40 miles/hour, the battery will last for an hour. If you have a 1 kW heater (seems like a lot), it will decrease your battery power by 1 kWh in that amount of time. That means you decrease your range by roughly 12% = 5 miles. Put another way, the ICE turns on after 53 minutes instead of 60 minutes. Hardly a deal breaker in my opinion.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes. This agrees with the rough calculations we did last year. The HVAC drain is noticable, but not a big deal.

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noel park Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

#76 Dave G:

It’s cool That’s what it’s about..

Cars aren’t practical, at least at this price point. It’s been said here many times, but driving a Benz, BMW, Cadillac, Corvette (may God forgive me), Infiniti, Lexus, Jaguar, Porsche, and on, and on, and on is not practical. People are making a statement, whatever it is. “Look at me, I’m cool”.

Somebody here wisely commented months ago that, if the $$ bottom line was the only thing that governed car purchases, everybody would be driving an Aveo or a Rios.

You can read 20 comments here in the last 2 days about how the Prius doesn’t pencil out. Who cares? They have a 3+ month waiting list.

I will have to wait to see what the price is, but give me a photovoltaic top any day. It’s cool! Driving a Volt will be about making a statement. A PV roof is a relatively inexpensive way to put a big exclamation point on that statement.

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Grizzly Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

Did anyone notice that the Econ/Sprt switch in previous console pictures has changed to Econ/Hold in the shot above? I’d SURE like to know more about that.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

71, Tom

@ 70 Rashiid:
Of course the heat is battery powered and will stay on once you unplug the car to start driving it. How else would it work?

———
The ICE.

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Texas Tea Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

Black Gold is trading below $70/barrel. This is important because $70 is the price at which Research, Development and Exploration of Alternative Fuels begin. Anything below $70 and OIL RULES. If every single POV in this country ran on Electric we would still need to import oil, wake up from your EV fantasy world people. The truth hurts. You need to realize where every barrel is going in this country and where did each barrel come from. EV is just a small part of the final solution.

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Grizzly Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Texas Tea #83

“This is important because $70 is the price at which Research, Development and Exploration of Alternative Fuels begin. Anything below $70 and OIL RULES”

*** *** ***

I’m not so sure. I still don’t like what I see at the pump, and I’m old enough to remember 1973. In my book this is the last straw.

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

#80 Grizzly

“Did anyone notice that the Econ/Sprt switch in previous console pictures has changed to Econ/Hold in the shot above? I’d SURE like to know more about that.”
————–
Yes. This is was changed from Sprt -> Hold after they changed the proto-type design to look like a 2009 Honda Insight. Since the car does not look Sporty anymore, they just decided to put it on Hold.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

#80 noel park Says: “I will have to wait to see what the price is, but give me a photovoltaic top any day. It’s cool! Driving a Volt will be about making a statement. A PV roof is a relatively inexpensive way to put a big exclamation point on that statement.”
————————————————————————————–
I was right with you, except for the end. What’s the statement? The PV roof statement is, “Let’s waste energy for comfort”. If you want that statement, buy a Lexus!

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

If someone wants to spend for the PV roof, and it makes them happy, then I say, sell it.

If you don’t want it, don’t buy it.

I would be in the “don’t want it” category, but I am also in the “get rid of the ICE” minority (please, no need to flame me on this, I have been here before and I am wearing my asbestos undee’s again)

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BillR Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

Actually, on cold days, turning on the ICE may be the way to go.

Electricity is a very pure form of energy, and it can be used to power an electric motor or provide heat with a resistance heater. Both of these processes are very efficient, with resistance heating near 99%.

A fuel such as gasoline has to be combusted to generate power or heat. The conversion to power in an optimum ICE is about 36%. The beauty of the ICE is its ability to use coolant to heat the car.

Let’s look at the example of $0.15 per kWh for electricity, and $3 per gallon for gasoline. If you need 4 kWh for heat, this consumes half of the battry pack’s power, or 20 miles of AER. So for your 8 kWh charge ($1.20), you get a heated cabin and 20 miles range ($0.06 per mile).

A gallon of gasoline has 36 kWh equivalent energy. It will provide at 36% efficiency 12.96 kWh, or about 65 miles of range. The energy not converted into power is captured as heat and exhaust energy. About 40% of the input energy is captured in the coolant. Therefore, 14.4 kWh is available for heating, which is 3.6 times the 4 kWh used in the all electric scenario. The 65 miles is 3.25 times the all electric scenario. Thus, there is more heat available, relative to the miles driven. At $3 per gallon and 65 miles, the cost per mile is $.046, which is less than the all electric scenario.

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JEC Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

88 BillR

Good point. This makes very logical sense.

Sometimes people get caught up in the solution without understanding the problem.

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Statik Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

#79 RB

Off topic — WSJ is reporting tonight the GM/Chrysler merger discussions are well advanced, that lenders are pushing for it, and that GM is thinking of having a merger agreement perhaps by the end of October. Attractions are $11B in Chrysler cash and possible $10B annual savings.
———————————————

I’m sure the lenders are pushing for it, even though a merged GM/Chrysler makes little sense on a direct value basis.

Good odds on GM going bankrupt as it stands right now, and with that, those ‘lenders’ lose…big time and soon. If GM and Chrysler merge it definitely puts them alot more securely in the ‘too big to go bankrupt’ department…and those lenders keep getting payments.

/certainly doesn’t hurt the lenders position one bit if they merge

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BillR Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

#80 Grizzly,

Purely speculation on my part, but I feel the Econ/Hold switch could be for the AC/heating system. With the auto temperature control, the AC system works to maintain your setpoint (let’s say 70 F). It may have to work extremely hard under certain conditions to meet this requirement, and with the “Hold” setting, the AC system will expend the power necessary to hold the setpoint temperature.

With the “ECON” setting, the AC system may only work at a given, predetermined level where it is most efficient. This saves battery power, but cabin temperature may creep up to let’s say 75 F on hot days.

This could also work for the heating system, as coolant is designed to be circulated through the ICE, battery pack, and power drive system. In the “ECON” setting, you would get all the heat available from these systems, but no more. If it got too cold, you can switch to “HOLD”, and either the ICE will start, or electric heating will come on to maintain your setpoint.

Again, just my speculation.

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J. Muchagrove Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

Hey #45:

CNG has the worst emissions. CNG is worse that gasoline. CNG is worse than fuel cells (a.k.a. Fool Sells). CNG is worse than diesel.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf
(See page 4)

NONSENSE!!

CNG burns so much cleaner than regular gasoline it isn’t even funny. Try reading from non-biased sources. It burns virtually pollution-free.

A CNG powered vehicle can cut toxic soot pollution by at least 75%. Smog-forming pollution compared to diesel is reduced by about 25 percent. Diesel soot is extremely toxic, containing over 40 chemicals that California has declared as toxic air contaminants. The Honda Civic GX is rated the least-polluting automobile by the EPA.

Get your facts straight before spouting off some nonsense!

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Grizzly Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

BillR #91

“Purely speculation on my part, but I feel the Econ/Hold switch could be for the AC/heating system. With the auto temperature control, the AC system works to maintain your setpoint (let’s say 70 F). It may have to work extremely hard under certain conditions to meet this requirement, and with the “Hold” setting, the AC system will expend the power necessary to hold the setpoint temperature.”

*** *** ***

I don’t know what it is either, but that wouldn’t explain the change from “sprt” to “hold”, because if climate control is in full force, you’re going to be drawing from the battery leaving less for performance or sprt if that’s what it means.

Here is the photo of the interior from a past thread…you’ll have to scroll down a little.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/18/the-chevy-volts-interior/

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Peter M Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

All this talk about programming the car so that it is nice and warm in the morning seems like overkill. I think the more likely scenario is the same system used on current cars. My car is nice and warm when I get in it on cold mornings. 10 minutes before I leave I start the car with my key FOB. I doubt the volt would be any different, except that it will draw power from the wall to heat the car.

Don’t create some crazy program that no one car figure out. Just give me a key FOB.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

#92 J. Muchagrove Says: “Get your facts straight before spouting off some nonsense!”
————————————————————————————–
Read the report – page 4 – CNG has the worst carbon emissions per mile. No lies.

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Peter M Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

CNG does burn much cleaner, that is true. It also has higher CO2 emission. Also true. The problem is everyone calls CO2 a pollutant (I know, global warming) the point is that it’s not the kind of pollutant that people generally are referring to. Think L.A. in the 70’s, smog, asthma etc. Those are the kind of pollutants that are reduced with CNG. CO2 is not reduced.

I think we did a disservice to the environment when CO2 was given the same label as all the other smog and asthma causing pollutants. They are very different.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

#83 Texas Tea Says: “Black Gold is trading below $70/barrel. This is important because $70 is the price at which Research, Development and Exploration of Alternative Fuels begin. Anything below $70 and OIL RULES. If every single POV in this country ran on Electric we would still need to import oil, wake up from your EV fantasy world people. The truth hurts. You need to realize where every barrel is going in this country and where did each barrel come from. EV is just a small part of the final solution.”
————————————————————————————–
Hi Texas Tea. Welcome to the forum.

I agree with your $70/barrel mark. I think the U.S. should set a minimum price for oil at $70/barrel. If the price falls below that point, oil import tariffs should be raised to get the price back up to $70/barrel. This will keep alternative vehicles alive.

As I’ve said before, 70% of the oil consumed in the U.S. is imported, much of it from nations whose citizens are hostile toward the U.S. There is no doubt that oil money is funding terrorism.

U.S. oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 45% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 7% home heating oil
• 2% electricity
• 22% other (industrial fuel oil, plastics, petro-chemical, etc.)

Looking at these numbers, it becomes obvious that there is no one solution that will reduce oil usage by 70%. Energy independence will require multiple solutions.

Here’s one possible range of solutions:

• Convert most passenger vehicles to EVs with range extenders. This would reduce our gasoline consumption by around 80%, which would reduce our total oil consumption by around 36%.

• Convert the remaining 20% gasoline usage to E85. Cellulosic ethanol would not affect food crops. This will reduce oil consumption by another 7%.
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp

• Convert diesel and jet fuel to bio-fuels from algae. Note that ancient algae is what made the oil that’s in the ground today. Genetically engineered algae can be grown in the desert within closed loop bio-reactors that use very little water. More info here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ToojK_MJd0
This would reduce our oil consumption by 22%.

• Convert natural gas currently used to make electricity to wind turbines and solar power. Use some of this natural gas to replace home heating oil. This would reduce our oil consumption by 7%.

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Dave G Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:05 pm

#96 Peter M Says: “I think we did a disservice to the environment when CO2 was given the same label as all the other smog and asthma causing pollutants. They are very different.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, they are very different. Rain washes most pollutants out of the atmosphere fairly quickly. CO2 stays until something else soaks it up.

The problem with CO2 is two-fold:
1) Each year, we are pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere.
2) Each year, we are cutting down more rain forests, so less CO2 is being absorbed.

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Jeff Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

#90 Statik

If GM and Chrysler merge it definitely puts them alot more securely in the ‘too big to go bankrupt’ department…

Not to be negative…but my thoughts also. It is the new business model encouraged by the US government,..sad to say.

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Neil Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Keep your Volt in the garage. It will be warm enough when you get in.

CNG is a bridge technology. T.Boone is talking today. What do we need to do right now to reduce dependance on foreign oil. Wind allows current Natural Gas production to be diverted to transportation. Natural Gas in fleets starting w/2009 purchases whittles away at the 350-700 billion in oil purchases.

T.Boone isn’t saying that CNG is the future. It is the now. I would think that T.Boone expects electric to be the future for cars and Diesel for trucks because of the energy mass required.

NC

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LB Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 12:13 am

Ironic!

Turn on the ice (ICE) to get heat.

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Grizzly Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 12:22 am

Neil #100

“CNG is a bridge technology”

*** *** ***

I just don’t believe that CNG fits in the auto picture. Any idea what it would take to convert cars over with the proper tanks and our infrastructure to support it? Electric or should I say RE EVs are almost here. In the case of the Volt the RE ICE can burn a renewable like ethanol. There are already 1200+ ethanol stations and growing.

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Ed M Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 2:57 am

One thing that makes me wonder about the nano wired battery / super capacitor, why isn’t GM pursuing this system with more vigor. If a super capacitor holds 10 – 100 times the power of Li ion battery and can charge in 5 minutes then why aren’t they developing them. We hear very little about the super capacitor and yet it would get about 400 miles to the charge and its cheaper to make. Does anyone know anything more about this ??

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Darius Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 3:48 am

Dave G #96

Several issues.
1. The new developments shall be protected for a while. The oil price is simply not stable and will be not foreseeable future. I would better support gasoline tax targeting the transport industry and will more politically correct.

2. Cellulosic ethanol will be not economic in comparison with grain ethanol. Let’s not kill good existing solutions.

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NZDavid Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 3:51 am

Ed M
Super Capacitors, are very powerful, they also leak a lot of power, so for storage purposes are quite inefficient. It’s a bit like leaving your park lights on when out of the car.

CNG
I think T Boone is just looking at converting the heavy truck fleet to CNG, not cars.

LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.

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nasaman Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 5:45 am

105 NZDavid……. “Super Capacitors, are very powerful, they also leak a lot of power, so for storage purposes are quite inefficient. It’s a bit like leaving your park lights on when out of the car.”
—————————————————————————————————————————–
Good point, David! The self discharge rate of a super capacitor, whether made by Maxwell, EEStor or others, will inherently be many times that of a Li-Ion battery —it would likely fully discharge within a few hours at most!

I also agree that Pickens et al should expect CNG to be used primarily by heavy truck fleets.

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Paul Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 8:13 am

HVAC?

Cool…

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Dave G Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 8:40 am

#107 Darius Says: “2. Cellulosic ethanol will be not economic in comparison with grain ethanol. Let’s not kill good existing solutions.”
————————————————————————————-
Cellulosic will be cheaper. Grain alchhol is fairly expensive even with the significant government subsidies thay have now.

Contrast this will a cellulosic gasification process:
“Coskata’s process delivers the next-generation of ethanol at the lowest cost target in the industry – under US $1.00 per gallon.”
http://www.coskata.com/ProcessAdvantages.asp

Take a look around coskata’s site and you’ll soon see why GM is investing heavily in this company.

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Dave G Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 8:58 am

#105 Grizzly Says: “I just don’t believe that CNG fits in the auto picture. Any idea what it would take to convert cars over with the proper tanks and our infrastructure to support it?”
————————————————————————————-
Yes, I agree.

The infrastructure is the key. Today we already have an infrastructure for liquid transportation fuels (gas, diesel, etc) and electricity. Converting a gas or diesel filling station pump over to E85 is trivial, as long as there are enough E85 cars to support it (which there aren’t today). Bio-diesel is a complete non-issue, since it’s indistinguishable from regular diesel.

By contrast, it will take 20-30 years before there are enough CNG filling stations to be able to make a long trip anywhere in the country.

So I believe any plan that proposes suddenly changing the infrastructure isn’t viable. This goes for hydrogen and fast electric charging stations as well. If the infrastructure does change, it will be gradual. So cars will have to be made to use 2 or 3 different fuels during the transition.

In the case of the Volt, it’s 3 different fuels (Electric, gas, E85), and the infrastructure for all 3 already exists.

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randy Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 10:22 am

There should be a way to program the car to heat up electrically at a certain time of day(like 30 minutes before your daily commute)while plugged in at home, so as not to reduce your range

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DaveP Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

ICE running at -40?
I strongly hope I never have to use this feature.

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Raymond Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Where I live, the temperature dips below -40 (F or C) a few days of the year, but usually at night. My question is; Will the gas engine start at that temparature? Answer: Experiance says, Not if it’s not plugged-in to an engine warmer for a few hours before start-up. It’s ironic that on cold nights, you’ll have to plug in your electric car to warm the engine that will in turn warm you I wonder if that will require 2 seperate plugs or if there will be a thermostat control for the engine warmer using the same plug as the battery charger? I was kind of hoping to be able to turn on the (electric) heat (via remote control) about 15 minutes before unpluging your car in the morning. That way your car would be warmed up and your battery still fully charged. Anyway, I’m glad those guys in California think about us northern folk at all!

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Grizzly Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Dave G.

“Converting a gas or diesel filling station pump over to E85 is trivial, as long as there are enough E85 cars to support it (which there aren’t today)….In the case of the Volt, it’s 3 different fuels (Electric, gas, E85), and the infrastructure for all 3 already exists.”

*** *** ***

There are not enough E85 vehicles on the road to support rapid proliferation. This is the chicken or the egg problem. W/o a mandate I believe the auto manufacturers, especially GM with agreements w/ Coskata should start rolling these out. With proper policy, or just good business I’d like to see a dotting of the landscape especially along highways so that if you have an E85 vehicle and travel you’ll be able to make that choice. As we move to RE EV’s less and less will be used so the infrastructure will never necessarily need to be as robust as Gasoline was or is. It will just need to be strategic with placement of stations.

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Tom H Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Contrast this will a cellulosic gasification process:
“Coskata’s process delivers the next-generation of ethanol at the lowest cost target in the industry – under US $1.00 per gallon.”
http://www.coskata.com/ProcessAdvantages.asp

——————————————————————————–
This would be great if it ever happens, but I am very skeptical. Anybody can set a target price under $1.00 gallon. In fact, I just have. I have set a target price of 75 cents per gallon for making gasoline out of discarded candy wrappers.

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Tom H Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

IMO we will not see both electric cars and alternate fuels (E-85 or CNG) become pervasive. If electric cars do become pervasive, and people can buy 300MPGe PHEVs, or gas free BEVs, the usage of gasoline will drop by 90-95%. At this level of usage there will be no incentive (neither economic nor ecological) to convert our entire infrastructure away from gasoline.

Of course, even with a 90-95% reduction, crude oil wil run out someday, but not within the current century.

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Grizzly Says:
October 18th, 2008 at 12:00 am

Tom H #118

” If electric cars do become pervasive, and people can buy 300MPGe PHEVs, or gas free BEVs, the usage of gasoline will drop by 90-95%. At this level of usage there will be no incentive (neither economic nor ecological) to convert our entire infrastructure away from gasoline”

*** *** ***
The problem is that this won’t happen overnight. In fact it’s going to take quite a while for it to happen and for EVs in general to have any chance at proliferation they’ll need to be RE EVs. For this reason, liquid fuels will be with us for quite some time. Since the infrastructure for E85 already exists, it’s unlike H2 or CNG. The same pumps and stations that pump 87reg can pump E85 it’s just a matter of breaking big oil’s monopoly.

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carcus Says:
October 18th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

#100 Dave G./ # 83 Texas Tea,

How hard do you want to think about this topic? It’s a bit of a Pandora’s box, isn’t it?

Energy Debate Fact Check #2 – Is Energy Independence Good For the Nation?
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4647

Don’t forget about conservation. It may be the best answer of all.

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Hank Beasley Says:
October 25th, 2008 at 2:20 am

What about a heat pump? It would be up to 4 times as efficient.

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Poe Says:
March 17th, 2009 at 9:20 pm

What is all the excitement about -40, the majority of these cars are not going to be sold to people who live in -40 areas. Peo who live in -40 areas need 4 WD suv’s. Not high mileage puddle jumpers.

I do like the idea of pre heating the car, while you are chaging it. You could heat a heat sink, then pull the heat off that. Don’t forget Elec motors do generate heat too. All kinds of ways to avoid turning the ICE on.

My other personal beef, they complain about companies going overseas. Maybe the highest corporate tax in the world might have something to due with it. And we will not get into how many companies DEP has killed. Good day all.

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