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	<title>Comments on: EPA Closer to Giving the Chevy Volt at Least a 100 mpg Rating</title>
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	<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/</link>
	<description>Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:07:32 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Top 10 Electric Cars Coming to the US in 2009/2010 : Gas 2.0</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-90822</link>
		<dc:creator>Top 10 Electric Cars Coming to the US in 2009/2010 : Gas 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-90822</guid>
		<description>[...] Far: 40 Miles on battery power alone, something like 50 MPG after [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Far: 40 Miles on battery power alone, something like 50 MPG after [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Randy B.</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-74124</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-74124</guid>
		<description>A standard unit of measure for energy input is needed to make a comparison understandable to the public. The energy content (btu) of various fuels is confusing to most:
diesel-as much as 140,000 per gal.(is that U.S. or Imperial?)
gasoline- maybe 120,000 per gal.?
propane-91,500 gal. or 2500 per cu. ft. at 11&quot; w.c. pressure.
natural gas- 1050 or so per cu. ft. at 7&quot; w.c. .
hydrogen- I don&#039;t have a clue.
electric- 3413 per kW (could be off on this one)

If there was a comparison of how many miles a certain vehicle got under a standard set of conditions with an input of (lets say) 100,000 btu (one THERM), the comparative efficiency of a particular vehicle would become clear, and the operational expense would be easier to compute for different regions of the world.  A hybrid would show some type of sliding scale so that a person could see what the mileage would be for the planned volt; electric only, on board generator running full time (you started trip with 30% charge), or a mix of the two  (lets say a 200 mile trip started with a full charge).

 A &quot;therm&quot; is a unit of measure equal to 100,000 btu. I believe natural gas is usually sold in this unit of measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A standard unit of measure for energy input is needed to make a comparison understandable to the public. The energy content (btu) of various fuels is confusing to most:<br />
diesel-as much as 140,000 per gal.(is that U.S. or Imperial?)<br />
gasoline- maybe 120,000 per gal.?<br />
propane-91,500 gal. or 2500 per cu. ft. at 11&#8243; w.c. pressure.<br />
natural gas- 1050 or so per cu. ft. at 7&#8243; w.c. .<br />
hydrogen- I don&#8217;t have a clue.<br />
electric- 3413 per kW (could be off on this one)</p>
<p>If there was a comparison of how many miles a certain vehicle got under a standard set of conditions with an input of (lets say) 100,000 btu (one THERM), the comparative efficiency of a particular vehicle would become clear, and the operational expense would be easier to compute for different regions of the world.  A hybrid would show some type of sliding scale so that a person could see what the mileage would be for the planned volt; electric only, on board generator running full time (you started trip with 30% charge), or a mix of the two  (lets say a 200 mile trip started with a full charge).</p>
<p> A &#8220;therm&#8221; is a unit of measure equal to 100,000 btu. I believe natural gas is usually sold in this unit of measure.</p>
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		<title>By: statik</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-74089</link>
		<dc:creator>statik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-74089</guid>
		<description>Ok, this thread is a little long in the tooth, but autoblog has a update on it...thought I&#039;d pass it along:

&quot;Update: GM Spokesman Rob Peterson has just let us know that the Seattle Times report is based on an earlier erroneous, Bloomberg report. GM is still talking to the EPA and nothing has changed in the last two weeks.&quot;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/14/has-epa-approved-test-procedure-that-would-give-volt-100-mpg-rat/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, this thread is a little long in the tooth, but autoblog has a update on it&#8230;thought I&#8217;d pass it along:</p>
<p>&#8220;Update: GM Spokesman Rob Peterson has just let us know that the Seattle Times report is based on an earlier erroneous, Bloomberg report. GM is still talking to the EPA and nothing has changed in the last two weeks.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/14/has-epa-approved-test-procedure-that-would-give-volt-100-mpg-rat/" rel="nofollow">http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/14/has-epa-approved-test-procedure-that-would-give-volt-100-mpg-rat/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Arty</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-74083</link>
		<dc:creator>Arty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-74083</guid>
		<description>People buying the Volt will do so because they value the AER.  That means they understand that to &quot;fill&quot; the battery with 8kWh of energy at an average of $.14/kWh = $1.12 for 40 miles range.  Compare that to something around $5 for 40 miles with an average gas engine and it begins to sink in.  While overall vehicle cost is higher than a plain ICE - the Volt will cost you 80% less than driving a typical gasoline powered vehicle.  The EPA figures are a measurement of the past.  

Of course if you&#039;re like the guy in San Diego with PV on the roof and no electric bills for the last seven years - energy costs for your Volt is zero.  Or if you live in the Northwest and pay around $.07/kWh - your 40 miles costs you $.56 cents.  Sounds damned attractive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People buying the Volt will do so because they value the AER.  That means they understand that to &#8220;fill&#8221; the battery with 8kWh of energy at an average of $.14/kWh = $1.12 for 40 miles range.  Compare that to something around $5 for 40 miles with an average gas engine and it begins to sink in.  While overall vehicle cost is higher than a plain ICE &#8211; the Volt will cost you 80% less than driving a typical gasoline powered vehicle.  The EPA figures are a measurement of the past.  </p>
<p>Of course if you&#8217;re like the guy in San Diego with PV on the roof and no electric bills for the last seven years &#8211; energy costs for your Volt is zero.  Or if you live in the Northwest and pay around $.07/kWh &#8211; your 40 miles costs you $.56 cents.  Sounds damned attractive.</p>
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		<title>By: Steveland Harris</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-74017</link>
		<dc:creator>Steveland Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-74017</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the deal with the posted graphic above? It has 2.5 and 3.1 which if multiplied by 16kWh gives us a 40 miles of all electric range (AER), but we all know that the Volt will use only 8kWh of its whole 16kWh. So the Volt is really more efficient than this chart implies, or am I getting worked up over a chart that&#039;s no remotely based on reality? The way I see it: when the we have E-Flex with a Volt body driving on real streets then we will know what the fuel/battery economy are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the deal with the posted graphic above? It has 2.5 and 3.1 which if multiplied by 16kWh gives us a 40 miles of all electric range (AER), but we all know that the Volt will use only 8kWh of its whole 16kWh. So the Volt is really more efficient than this chart implies, or am I getting worked up over a chart that&#8217;s no remotely based on reality? The way I see it: when the we have E-Flex with a Volt body driving on real streets then we will know what the fuel/battery economy are.</p>
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		<title>By: stas peterson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-73983</link>
		<dc:creator>stas peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-73983</guid>
		<description>There is certainly an important element to what #53. #53  et  al, have posted.  Of course the hate America, hold their feet to the fire after they are already dying mentality is at work and visible in #56 post.

The synthetic way the CAFE number is computed for all hybrids and plugins, will effect the companies by billions of dollars, WITHOUT changing a thing in the real world.

But I do wish that the peoplel would get it straight in their heads. The EPA sticker on the window has NOTHING to do with CAFE mileage rating that the car companies must meet by force of Law.   

NHTSA does CAFE; EPA &quot;guesstimates&quot; the window sticker mileage and changes it at a whim. Look at the differences between EPA 2007 and 2008 model year  window stickers for the exact same car, with no changes. Some idiot bureaucrat just decided one day that he felt that one number was &quot;better&quot; then another.

But CAFE is measured and the measuring stick can&#039;t be arbitrarily changed.  It is the same as in 1975, just so we can compare cars from different eras. At the same time the car companies have a firm target that doesn&#039;t change. The wild ass EPA &quot;guess&quot; of the mileage of a car differs from the CAFE measure by a large amount.



For those  people who think that conservation and efficiency have never been tried, that is the reality.  The auto industry has come a long way already. Not that anybody green  gives then any credit.

The average CAFE of the US auto fleet for the 2007 model year before gas prices cratered truck and SUV sales was 30.5 mpg by the CAFE measuring stick.  I am sure its climbed dramatically since then.  Back in the 1975 it was difficult to achieve the mandated 14 mpg as an average for the model year.  now its difficult to find a single model that is that  poor in fuel usage.

Did you know that the thirstiest SUV or truck sold inn America get over 22.5 mpg combined on CAFE?  Take your biggest Suburban or pimp-mobile Escalade and load it up with the biggest engine.  CAFE will still rate it accurately as 40% BETTER  than a 1970s Beetle or  Accord or Corolla. 

But how to synthetically account for hybrid CAFE  is critical to the companies and the jobs of several million people.  The CAFE measuring stick has a vehicle cover a prescribed copy of a real auto route,  inside a climate controlled lab driving on a dynamometer duplicating speeds and with some  combination of city and hiway travel. But I don&#039;t remember how far that test was route is.  If its under 40 miles, ther Volt has infinite CAFE mileage, If it covers 80 miles the rating would be much less.  Who knows the cycle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is certainly an important element to what #53. #53  et  al, have posted.  Of course the hate America, hold their feet to the fire after they are already dying mentality is at work and visible in #56 post.</p>
<p>The synthetic way the CAFE number is computed for all hybrids and plugins, will effect the companies by billions of dollars, WITHOUT changing a thing in the real world.</p>
<p>But I do wish that the peoplel would get it straight in their heads. The EPA sticker on the window has NOTHING to do with CAFE mileage rating that the car companies must meet by force of Law.   </p>
<p>NHTSA does CAFE; EPA &#8220;guesstimates&#8221; the window sticker mileage and changes it at a whim. Look at the differences between EPA 2007 and 2008 model year  window stickers for the exact same car, with no changes. Some idiot bureaucrat just decided one day that he felt that one number was &#8220;better&#8221; then another.</p>
<p>But CAFE is measured and the measuring stick can&#8217;t be arbitrarily changed.  It is the same as in 1975, just so we can compare cars from different eras. At the same time the car companies have a firm target that doesn&#8217;t change. The wild ass EPA &#8220;guess&#8221; of the mileage of a car differs from the CAFE measure by a large amount.</p>
<p>For those  people who think that conservation and efficiency have never been tried, that is the reality.  The auto industry has come a long way already. Not that anybody green  gives then any credit.</p>
<p>The average CAFE of the US auto fleet for the 2007 model year before gas prices cratered truck and SUV sales was 30.5 mpg by the CAFE measuring stick.  I am sure its climbed dramatically since then.  Back in the 1975 it was difficult to achieve the mandated 14 mpg as an average for the model year.  now its difficult to find a single model that is that  poor in fuel usage.</p>
<p>Did you know that the thirstiest SUV or truck sold inn America get over 22.5 mpg combined on CAFE?  Take your biggest Suburban or pimp-mobile Escalade and load it up with the biggest engine.  CAFE will still rate it accurately as 40% BETTER  than a 1970s Beetle or  Accord or Corolla. </p>
<p>But how to synthetically account for hybrid CAFE  is critical to the companies and the jobs of several million people.  The CAFE measuring stick has a vehicle cover a prescribed copy of a real auto route,  inside a climate controlled lab driving on a dynamometer duplicating speeds and with some  combination of city and hiway travel. But I don&#8217;t remember how far that test was route is.  If its under 40 miles, ther Volt has infinite CAFE mileage, If it covers 80 miles the rating would be much less.  Who knows the cycle?</p>
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		<title>By: js1219</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-73968</link>
		<dc:creator>js1219</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 03:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-73968</guid>
		<description>Great!

Give me a generation II VOLT.  I much rather have a pure EV, but if the cost is less than $50K with an 80 MPC E-REV, well, I guess I might as well forget the pure EV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great!</p>
<p>Give me a generation II VOLT.  I much rather have a pure EV, but if the cost is less than $50K with an 80 MPC E-REV, well, I guess I might as well forget the pure EV.</p>
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		<title>By: statik</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-73952</link>
		<dc:creator>statik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-73952</guid>
		<description>EDIT: sorry wrong thread...move along nothing to see</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EDIT: sorry wrong thread&#8230;move along nothing to see</p>
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		<title>By: Shaft</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-73945</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-73945</guid>
		<description>Shaft #54
=================
OK, now I prefer this:
EV range (after 3650 charge cycles): 36 miles combined (40.8 city/33.6 highway)
M/kWh battery: 4.5M/kWh combined (5.1 city/4.2 highway)
MPG gas: 50 MPG combined (46 city/55 highway)

Yah, I know it&#039;s more complex, but it says what you need to know in clear fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaft #54<br />
=================<br />
OK, now I prefer this:<br />
EV range (after 3650 charge cycles): 36 miles combined (40.8 city/33.6 highway)<br />
M/kWh battery: 4.5M/kWh combined (5.1 city/4.2 highway)<br />
MPG gas: 50 MPG combined (46 city/55 highway)</p>
<p>Yah, I know it&#8217;s more complex, but it says what you need to know in clear fashion.</p>
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		<title>By: tom harwick</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/13/epa-closer-to-giving-the-chevy-volt-at-least-a-100-mpg-rating/#comment-73938</link>
		<dc:creator>tom harwick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1329#comment-73938</guid>
		<description>GM has stated that they want the EPA sticker to include:

Miles per kWh, City/Highway, Electric Range
Miles per gallon, City/Highway, Total Range

This provides, I believe, the basic information needed by the consumer to determine his/her energy consumption and costs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my last rant on this topic for a while, I promise. 

 First of all, I agree with publishing all requested specs. 

But the sentence immediately above the ---line is absolutely incorrect.  

A better way to phrase it would be, the above information, plus the cost of electricity per kilowatt hour, would enable a select set of technically oriented consumers to determine energy consumption and costs.

The average consumer would get no benefit at all from this info, because they are unable/unwilling to do the calculations.  Given that info, the average consumer would be totally clueless as to whether the Volt is a better or worse deal for him than a Prius, Cobalt, or Civic.

To popularize the Volt beyond a few geeks like us who enjoy math, the biggest number on the sticker has to be 100MPGe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GM has stated that they want the EPA sticker to include:</p>
<p>Miles per kWh, City/Highway, Electric Range<br />
Miles per gallon, City/Highway, Total Range</p>
<p>This provides, I believe, the basic information needed by the consumer to determine his/her energy consumption and costs.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
This is my last rant on this topic for a while, I promise. </p>
<p> First of all, I agree with publishing all requested specs. </p>
<p>But the sentence immediately above the &#8212;line is absolutely incorrect.  </p>
<p>A better way to phrase it would be, the above information, plus the cost of electricity per kilowatt hour, would enable a select set of technically oriented consumers to determine energy consumption and costs.</p>
<p>The average consumer would get no benefit at all from this info, because they are unable/unwilling to do the calculations.  Given that info, the average consumer would be totally clueless as to whether the Volt is a better or worse deal for him than a Prius, Cobalt, or Civic.</p>
<p>To popularize the Volt beyond a few geeks like us who enjoy math, the biggest number on the sticker has to be 100MPGe</p>
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