Lutz Provides More Volt Details: Photovoltaic Roof to be Unveiled in January, and Volt Development Ahead of Schedule
After the Volt unveiling the Toronto Star had a fruitful Q& A with GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz.
Lutz told reporters that because things have gone so well, the Volt is actually ahead of schedule. He indicated that he was now 99.9% sure the Volt will be a success, and that as a result it will have a transformational effect on the public’s perception of GM’s technological and environmental prowess.
He also discussed issues being worked out for apartment dwellers, and noted one idea would be to persuade garage owners to set aside an area for car charging and discussed the way public chargers would have to be designed so thieves couldn’t steal power. The charger would have a sliding door that locks the cord in place, opening only when a credit card was swiped.
He also publicly confirmed that GM will unveil the Volt’s photovoltaic roof option at the Detroit Auto Show in January. The roof, he said, will be able to charge the battery from 1/4 to 1/3 over 3 hot blazing days of sun, such as in an airport parking lot, and could function keep the A/C on when parked on hot summer days, avoiding battery draw to cool up the car when the driver gets in.
Lutz also denied present plans to put E-Flex into other vehicles yet, although he remains excited at the prospects for doing so.
Lutz also describes the Volt’s cold-weather algorithm. If the driver turns on the car when its too cold for the battery to properly function, the ICE will go on automatically to condition the battery before shutting off and going to electric drive.
Source (Toronto Star )
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- Laugh Break: Bob Lutz on Colbert Nation, Photovoltaic Roof Option Confirmed
- Video: The Latest With Bob Lutz on the Chevy Volt - Photovoltaic Roof After All?
- Bob Lutz on Chevy Volt Battery Tests, Cold Starts, and Use of OnStar
- Forget the Volt’s Roof, GM Puts World’s Largest Solar Roof on a Whole Assembly Plant
- Video: Bob Lutz Discusses Production Chevy Volt Design
(16 votes, average: 4.75 out of 5) 
Loading ...
October 9th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Great details. I love hearing they are ahead of schedule.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:36 am
The article says ““We’re actually way ahead of schedule with everything now because we haven’t encountered any problems,” said Lutz”
===============================================
So I understand the spirit of the comment and am glad to hear it. However, in contrast to Mr Lutz’s statement, we know of problems that GM has encountered, so perhaps the statement means these have now been overcome. I know Mr Lutz is speaking to a general audience, but for those of us who have followed the details I wish he could be a little more specific about what it is that is ahead of schedule.
My guess is that what the statement means is that Mr Lutz is speaking along a fairly narrow train of thought. He and GM were worried about major unforeseen problems with the Li+ batteries, and that as they have tested prototypes the batteries have done OK. I don’t think he means anything beyond that, e.g., about contracts or production facilities or whatever.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:42 am
This is why there is a need for wireless connectivity and scheduled programming for the car to allow grid A.C. to precondition the compartment and the mechanics (battery temperature) of the car.
While at home, go to the PC and connect to the cars httpd server and tell it to start conditioning (I have a detached garage). While parked at the mall, tell the car from the in dash touch screen to maintain battery temperature conditions while shopping (which could be any length of time up to a max time). If working a regular schedule, just enter the preconditioning information in to the cars existing scheduler.
The goal of this car is to use no gas for 40 miles. This should also apply when the car is at origination and destination points that provide grid energy.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:44 am
I actually like the idea of the PV roof. I know it isn’t a whole lot of power, but it really can’t add much more than $100 - $200 in cost. My guess is they’ll be using Energy Conversion Devices thin film technology. They recently had ECD PV film put all over one of their roofs in Spain. ECD is also located in the detroit area and has one of the most proven Thin film designs even though it’s not the most efficient.
I’m pretty surprised that the battery will actually charge 1/4 to 1/3 in a 3 day time period. That means a full charge in 9 - 12 days. Which translates to on a good day you could get %10 more EV miles while your car charges at work. Bringing you up to a possible 44 miles on a charge. I like it even if it is a little gimmicky.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:44 am
This is great. I love the idea of the roof option even though I think it would not be good for my situation. Just hearing that the Volt is on schedule is great news.
With GM’s zero landfill manufacturing and the huge solar arrays they are installing on some of their factory buildings (along with the Volt of course), GM will truly be Green Motors.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:00 am
This is all great news, but they really need to get going on setting up the manufacturing plant for the Volt.
If the car is ahead of schedule, then they might be able to move up the release date!!
News like that would easily generate a thousand comments here…..
October 9th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Sounds great, just hope the PV roof doesn’t remove the sunroof option. Now a sunroof option with the PV roof would be amazing.
Can you tell I really, really want this to have a sunroof?
October 9th, 2008 at 7:16 am
The cold weather operation is another demonstration of the advantages of E-Flex.
Besides being a range extender, the ICE also can be utilized in cold weather to “condition” the battery pack. Again, more examples of how GM is looking to save battery life.
This is important, because years ago I remember reading that GM felt the EV1 wasn’t viable because the batteries would not last the lifetime of the vehicle. Somewhere in the car’s mid-life, a new battery pack would be needed, and consumers would not be happy with the major expense of the new battery pack (more than half the cost of the vehicle when new).
Now its nice to think that you could always get the battery conditioned from the grid on a cold day, but for those of us who can’t plug-in at work, or have to leave our car at the airport for several days when traveling, this is definately a nice feature.
Just another reason why battery-only electric vehicles are not for everyone.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:24 am
“Lutz told reporters that because things have gone so well, the Volt is actually ahead of schedule”
———————
And what schedule might that be?
F A C T S Please! If your schedule was to have a mock shell by October, and maybe a working prototype by the Detroit autoshow…then great success! Hopefully, the word ‘miracle’ or ‘divine intervention’ is also not included in the 2009 product development plan.
“…but I guess I’ll have to take you…at…your…word”
http://www.vvaughn.com/videos/cameos/2004%20-%20anchorman/anchorman01.jpg
related anchorman clip (1:30): http://www.vvaughn.com/videos/cameos/2004%20-%20anchorman/02%20anchorman%20-%20anchormen%20rumble.wmv
Side note: PV sunroof is ridiculously stupid, ‘non-sensicial’….but hella cool, hehe.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Why only the roof photovoltaic? Couldnt all the surfaces have PV, sort of like the Sunracer?
Oh well, I live in a cloudy state, and wouldnt buy the the PV roof. I’d prefer a hard-top convertable like the Pontiac G6. Not sure what that would do to the aerodynamics.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:44 am
9 Statik:
Its sort of a forced offered option. I am sure the engineers were looking at each other at the request going “Are they serious? Its worthless”
Toyota unveiled a PV roof so the Volt has to offer one as an option. GM’s “green” credibility is hanging by a thread because of the relentless media and environmental group beatdowns. If Toyota unveiled that the plug in Prius had a special Unicorn farts mode then GM absolutely HAS to come out the next day and offer a Unicorn Fart burning Generator option.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:46 am
@Statik: “PV sunroof is ridiculously stupid, ‘non-sensicial’”
If it allows you to keep the car cool (and possibly even warm) without draining the battery I see it as very smart and sensible…
October 9th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I am glad they are “ahead” of schedule, but I wonder about the photovoltaic roof. First they said it was an option, so not all cars will have it, second, since the suns intensity is different depending on where you live, will it get a stonger charge in the south like southern Texas than it will in the north like the UP of Michigan?
The sun can get pretty intense here in Houston, and if it can charge the battery faster because of it, it is a great option i can get behind. Although it doesn’t do me any good at work since I park under cover every day, but it may entice me to go and park on the roof of my parking garage.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:00 am
Very cool. I have to agree with his last comment:
I think a great many people will think that way. I won’t though.
If oil drops and gas is once again $1.25 per gallon, I will still want the Volt because I truly hate OPEC, terrorism, and putting our troops in harms way because of oil.
Death to oil (to quote Anti-Oil Jihadi)
October 9th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Note to GM dealer: Please check my solar powered roof option box for my Volt. Thank you.
Your EV is just not cool if you don’t have PV. Batteries just sitting there slowly fading away, hot seats in the summer, no always-on Internet, your new girlfriend telling you how her ex-boyfriend’s car had PV and how cool it was in the summer, etc. No thank you! I want my burger with cheese, my hotdog with chilli, my EV with PV!
NPVNS - No Photovoltaics No Sale!
October 9th, 2008 at 8:06 am
The PV sunroof won’t be an option I will get.
It is simply not strong enough to do me much good. I park in the garage at home and at work. The car will mostly be inside. 5 days a week, the car is outside for the 2 hours I am driving. A PV sunroof would be useless to me. However, I am glad this will be an option. I assume most people do not park their car in a garage while at work.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Can we get any more information about the software algorithms? Maybe a top level flow diagram? My guess is GM could get a lot of free software design consulting help if they asked for it. If this truly is one of the bottlenecks, they could benefit from a very active and interested free software development community. They could register developers (have them sign a NDA, etc.) and set up something like sourceforge. I bet it would take a couple months off the schedule, and translate into some extra cash. As an experienced software developer in a safety-critical transportation industry (aviation), I’d be willing to participate in something like this. Anyone else with me?
October 9th, 2008 at 8:12 am
“He also discussed issues being worked out for apartment dwellers, and noted one idea would be to persuade garage owners to set aside an area for car charging and discussed the way public chargers would have to be designed so thieves couldn’t steal power.”
=========================
Really? So “asking nicely” to set aside those spots is going to be the way to go? Seems like this is a huge issue that is going to have to be overcome. Garage parkers that have say assigned spots with no current outlets? Apartment owners arent just going to volunteer to wire up their parking garages.
The only thing I could see for this is some kind of portable solution - what that is I have no idea. Leave it plugged in at home during the day then come home, pick “it” up, bring it down and charge the Volt that way, maybe from the interior so it cant be screwed with.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:23 am
“public chargers would have to be designed so thieves couldn’t steal power. The charger would have a sliding door that locks the cord in place, opening only when a credit card was swiped.”
Wouldn’t it be easier to have a simple circuit that cuts the power to the cord, until you slide your CC? And a simple algorithm that cuts the power if, say, someone unplugs your car and tries to charge his own car?
Soft solutions are sometimes better than Hard. They are also Harder to mess up with (unless they mess up with you!)
October 9th, 2008 at 8:26 am
I will take the PV sunroof as my Volt would be outside 24/7. Anything to keep the battery (s?) charged up..
GM.. Black….inside and out…. all the options..
I have deposit in hand
October 9th, 2008 at 8:37 am
A multifaceted development project can have hundreds of details “ahead of schedule” without affecting in the slightest the production date. No announcement was made concerning November 2010.
I can just hear the GM salesman now, the PV roof option increases the all electric range by “up to” one mile a day.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:42 am
“…he was now 99.9% sure the Volt will be a success”
With that certainty, GM should flood the market with Volts ASAFP.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:46 am
#12 Scossa
I’m glad that GM is making this an option, people should be free to purchase it if they want to. But I’d have to agree with Static that it’s not really practical, considering the cost. On a good day, you can get an extra 4 miles of range from parking in the heat. That amount of electricity off the grid will cost about $0.10. So if the PV roof costs $500, it’ll take 5000 PERFECT days, or 14 years, before you make your money back. This ignores the time value of money which would definitely make this a bad decision.
If you strongly support PV technology, you’d be better off taking your $500 and spending it on a home PV system, buying stock in a PV company, loaning it your neighbor so they can buy a PV system, etc. Putting it on top of a car is only useful for declaring to everyone else that you are an eco-minded person with some disposable income.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:46 am
#9 statik said “related anchorman clip (1:30):” with link
============================================
I have no idea what this clip was about or how it is related to this thread, but it was fun to watch.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:48 am
I think the PV roof is a great safety idea! Every year children and pets die, and a lot more end up extremely uncomfortable, because they get locked in a hot car. My guess is that this will ultimately become a required safety feature. Also, how many times have you needed to sit in the heat waiting for someone? Or even with car trouble on a hot day? I’d rather do it with the air conditioner on and running. So I’m with Texas: Check my option box.
#9 Statik - As a FYI this is the interview I mentioned yesterday about the plug. The transcript is an edited down version of the actual interview. Right before he talks about the sliding mechanism he mentions that all the manufacturers and the utilities have agreed on the plug. (I can’t get your link to work so maybe you’ve already know that).
October 9th, 2008 at 8:52 am
#18 DC says “Really? So “asking nicely” to set aside those spots is going to be the way to go? Seems like this is a huge issue that is going to have to be overcome. Garage parkers that have say assigned spots with no current outlets? Apartment owners arent just going to volunteer to wire up their parking garages. ”
============================================
Apartment owners and managers are more competitive than it might seem at first. Good tenants are in effect business partners. If an electrical outlet makes it possible to keep a good long-term relationship, many apartment owners will get it done. It is a minor item in relation to the much larger sums often involved.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:02 am
#9, #11, #12
I agree.
However…hopefully, PV solar cells on the Volt will promote the research and development of the tech for vehicles. I believe that hybrid cars have done a great deal to ramp up the research and development of electrical storage devices…more specifically Li batteries. Heck still within the auto industry, the debate about using large battery packs for cars still continues.
If the solar panels can actually cool a vehicle, it could become an option for ICE only vehicles. ICE only vehicles might switch to an electrical driven A/C compressors…possibly making it standard for all vehicles.
Yes…I know that some Volt enthusiasts want to feel “special” with the unique components on their future vehicle. As you may know, volume production can drastically reduce cost of components which makes it possible for more folks to enjoy the tech.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:03 am
#25 DonC
#9 Statik - As a FYI this is the interview I mentioned yesterday about the plug. The transcript is an edited down version of the actual interview. Right before he talks about the sliding mechanism he mentions that all the manufacturers and the utilities have agreed on the plug. (I can’t get your link to work so maybe you’ve already know that).
——————–
Gotcha, thanks Don, after ferreting around the internet it does seem like even though a universal plug is not legislated, most car companies seem to be complying…which is great.
===============================================
#24 RB
—#9 statik said “related anchorman clip (1:30):” with link
I have no idea what this clip was about or how it is related to this thread, but it was fun to watch.
————————–
Ok, it was a stretch,
“…but I guess I’ll have to take you…at…your…word” was in reference to Lutz saying they are ‘ahead of schedule’ and also in the film Anchorman
It’s a long 2-3 years to go…expect more ‘non-sensical’ links for my amusment (and possibly one or two others) in the future, lol. (Also, expect me to say ‘non-sensical’ and possibly spell this fake word differently at least 5 times today).
October 9th, 2008 at 9:08 am
#23 Cautious Fan, Time value of money? Ha! If you really want to get into that, buying just about any new car is foolish.
If you want to save the world AND have the best time value of money result you should buy an old mini truck, do a EV conversion on it, go to the hardware store and get a generator and install it in the truck bed. The whole deal will cost you less than $10,000 and should get you anywhere you need to go for the next couple of years.
Time value of money. What are we doing? Justifying a piece of production equipment? These are cars! People rarely think logically when they buy them. They are an extension of our personalities, brand name goods, chocolate cake! Time value of money. Thanks for the laugh.
Can I ask a question? Are you driving a Geo Metro or similar mode of transportation? If not, your argument is hypocritical. No?
NPVNS - No PV No Sale!
PV - it’s not only to move you forward!
October 9th, 2008 at 9:09 am
I have no idea why, but my stock screener is going crazy on GM.
It GM opened at around $7.35 but has dived to under $6.00 in like 10 minutes, thats about a 20% move. Might be nothing at all. I just have yet to see that kind of volitility out of GM while the market is in a 100 point range for the day (up about 75 right now).
October 9th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Gsned57 Says: @4
I’m pretty surprised that the battery will actually charge 1/4 to 1/3 in a 3 day time period. That means a full charge in 9 - 12 days. Which translates to on a good day you could get %10 more EV miles while your car charges at work. Bringing you up to a possible 44 miles on a charge. I like it even if it is a little gimmicky.
************************************************************************************
Your misquoting what Lutz said. He says and I quote, “The roof, he said, will be able to charge the battery from 1/4 to 1/3 over 3 hot blazing days of sun.” (From) 1/4 to 1/3 is not very much.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:24 am
#31 Joe,
If you read the actual article the quote is “But here’s what it can do: If you leave your car, say, take it to the airport and the car sits in the airport for a few days in the blazing hot sun, you could get a quarter to a third of a charge off that”
To me that doesn’t necessarily say 3 days, but a few could mean 2 to 4 in my mind so I’ll take the 3 days. And I really don’t think Lutz is saying you’ll go from %25 charge to %33 charge in a few days. That makes no sense, and in reading the actual quote it’s a stretch to assume that’s what he’s saying.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Not all PV cells are created equal. The thin-film cells which are least efficient are also the cheapest.
The Mars Exploration Rovers, twice as far from the Sun, get all of their power from multijunction solar cells which were hand-made in a laboratory (don’t have figures, but I bet they were — astronomical
). It’s even possible that at this moment, there are more multijunction cells on Mars than on Earth.
In the deep South there are stories every summer of pets and children dying from the heat in a locked car. This is enough to mandate at least the thin-film roof, from a straight safety standpoint. If someone with deep pockets wants more than “up to a mile a day,” perhaps a silicon or CIGS based array could be an expensive option.
On-board solar won’t really start to be significant in terms of moving the car until multi-junction cells approach CIGS or thin-film pricing. Don’t hold your breath.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:41 am
#29 Texas
I ride my bike to work. Hopefully I can move out of your hypocrite category now. And I for one do consider the time value of my money because it makes a big difference in deciding between competing options. I understand most people won’t but that shouldn’t preclude us from considering it. But that doesn’t change my conclusion that a PV roof will likely never pay for itself, even ignoring the TV of money.
#25 DonC
All the safety features you mentioned are theoretically available in an EREV without a PV roof. They run off the battery. And I haven’t read the PV will power the AC, only a small circulation fan. In addition there are many other safety features that could be added for $500 (or whatever the final cost is).
October 9th, 2008 at 9:42 am
#31 Joe
Your misquoting what Lutz said. He says and I quote, “The roof, he said, will be able to charge the battery from 1/4 to 1/3 over 3 hot blazing days of sun.” (From) 1/4 to 1/3 is not very much.
——————————————–
Hehe, and I thought I was sceptical.. I think Lutz meant exactly what it appears he said this time. 1/4 or 1/3 of a full charge.
Here comes the math…look away if you are queezy.
If you live in the ‘dark’ areas on this map…and it is summertime, you can get that fairly easily in 3 days…without ‘blazing’ sun all the time actually:
http://cleantechlawandbusiness.com/cleanbeta/wp-content/gallery/graphics-pac-lab/us_pv_annual_may2004.jpg
Assuming a California/Arizona/Texas type location in peak season, a 1/4 or 1/3 charge is not unreasonable. We are talking about 2-2.5kWh (assumeing 8kWh functioning usage of battery) here over 3 days or .6kWh- .8kWh per day
You are peaking out, given a horizontal axis in June and July at about 8 hours in the dark areas, so you only need a solar PV collector in the magnitude of 75-100 watts. 1 foot of standard efficiency photovoltaic panels will yield about 12 watts. So, you are only looking at a maximum 3×3 panel on the roof to do the job given the parameters.
Side note: This is very isolated math…only applicable if you live in the southwestern states and it is summertime, with uninterrupted light. But I think that keeps inline with Lutz statement, ‘3 hot blazing days of sun in a airport parking lot’
October 9th, 2008 at 9:43 am
GM knows the photovoltaic will not be very cost effective and that is why GM will offer it only as an option. Those first buyers will more than likely buy that option because for those, money won’t be an object.
Also, I think,GM will probably advance the production date because they are now more willing to take a bigger risk on the battery. They wanted the extra time to put the battery through longer rigorous testing. This is all happening because of the dire state of the economy.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:45 am
The last paragraph of the article was the most meaningful for me:
Toronto Star: Assuming the Volt delivers on expectations and is well-received by consumers, what else could derail GM’s efforts?
Bob Lutz: Let us say that over the next 18 months the world goes into a major recession, car sales and fuel use drop dramatically, the steel companies produce less steel and therefore use less energy, China finds its main export markets drying up, so they are into a contraction and use less steel and aluminum and plastic. And at the same time Canadian tars sands come on stream, and coal-to-liquids come on stream. All of a sudden there is a reduction in primary demand in petroleum plus all these additional new supply sources, which were started at the time of $140 a barrel, suddenly coming on stream. And oil drops to $25 a barrel and we’re looking at gas pump prices at $1.25 a gallon. I personally don’t think that’s going to happen, but that would be a dramatic event for the Volt because everybody would say, ‘Ha! Why
should I bother?’
Lutz didn’t mention OPEC turning on the spigots to lower oil prices, which they have done repeatedly when alternative vehicles have started gaining a foothold, so I think this scenario is much more likely.
In any event, since 70% of our oil is imported, it seems like a really good idea for the U.S. government to set a minimum price for oil, and then raise oil import tariffs when the price goes below that point. This way, people like Bob Lutz won’t have to worry about the $1.25/gallon scenario, which means investment and development into alternative vehicles will increase substantially.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:46 am
My guess is that the PV on volt will be net CO2 +ve at the end of its life i.e. it will take more CO2 emissions to manufacture it than it will save by making electricity from light.
Atleast it definitely will in my NorthWest corner state …
October 9th, 2008 at 9:48 am
I think the PV roof serves two useful purposes. One, it could be used to maintain interior temperature on extreme temperature days. Two it gets the infrastructure integrated into the car from the start, as opposed to a add on later in life.
What Lutz said about the PV film is where we are today. Look at companies like Konarka or Calyxo that are making some incredible products today. Imagine what will be available in June 2010. Sure some of the claims will be vaporware, but the advances are going to be coming fast and furious with thin film solar. What could recharge 1/4 today might be able to charge 2/3 by 2010.
GM, I’d like mine in black with a black leather cloth interior.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Apartment dwellers will invest in 100′ long extension cords. JK
I think the apartment manager would put in outlets to attract renters or put in pay meters and make some profit off it.
Hell, if i owned a parking lot, and could put in a 1-time cost of pay meters then sit back and let the $ start rolling in, I would. Easy money.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Statik, #30
I got your virus for stock exchange observation
Here
in PARIS : 4.89€, down 14.5%
in AMSTERDAM : 35.7 $, up 13.67 %
in BRUSSELS :6.10 €, down 9.63%
What does that mean ?
All stock markets are up in Western Europe today.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Dave,
I think the market has changed significantly for oil. There is no other way to explain Tesla and the Th!nk City. People are now willing to pay more for a car that gives them “green cred” or just to say they don’t use gas. A car like the Volt that is actually practical for the masses (if priced right) and gives the enviro shine that many people want today, is in a good position to capitalize on the new market outlook, IMO.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Very good interview. There was so much info contained in it that I didn’t think the PV roof was necessarily even the most important part.
The ICE is obviously more than just a RE, conditioning the battery on cold days another reason and especially if you live in cold climates, to use a synthetic motor oil.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:56 am
DAVE G #37
I think you are right, a minimum price for oil will help not ruin the R&D of the carmarkers who take risks with new oil sparing technologies.
JC
October 9th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Just a question I have not seen addressed.
It was asked of me last night by my brother, an airline captain who lives 38 miles from the airport.
Let say you travel 38 miles to an airport and then park the car for an extended trip. (No plug in available)
How long will the Lithium batteries hold its 30% charge?
What happens if you leave your car sitting for longer than that and the batteries are completely dead?
Will the ICE still start? If not, will you be able to “jump it off” like todays car batteries?
And then, how long would the ICE have to run before there is enough charge on the batteries to operate the car?
This “Airport Anxiety” issue might mean that the PV roof option might indeed be a necessity.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Options such as a PV roof are just that - OPTIONS. No one should get their panties in a wad because GM offers any particular option. If the owner feels he wants such a option, then great. Myself, I can see some advantages for some people for having that as an option.
I agree with RB (#26). Apartment owners will try to keep their clients because good ones are hard to find. Plus, they can set-up charging stations and make some money from them. That way everyone wins.
I do hope GM is ahead of schedule with the Volt and can get it out a few months early. I wish them all the luck in the world even though I know I will not be able to buy one for several years after introduction.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:59 am
I would also like to add that in no way do PVs ever make even the least bit of economic sense here…there is zero chance of payback, even assuming 40 years ownership of the car.
Depending on the state/country, payback is in the 8-15 year range for massively larger residential applications that have scale working for them…and with huge rebates in place and no unique engineering.
This is a ‘cool’ feature only…which I personally don’t have a problem with. Desire is as good a reason as any to buy a car…after all, a car is a money pit regardless of how you look at it.
Sidenote: GM is continuing to get obliterated so far today. Off about 25 percent of the high and 18% on the day.
Open high: $7.36
Current: $5.64 (-18%)
Current Market cap: 3.3 billion
No reason, other than fear of insolvency. I’ll take my Volt to go, ASAP please. Err wait, the short selling ban was lifted today. That being said, I still have zero clue where this is going to end today…could be anywhere. How can ‘regular’ people stomach owning something like this?
October 9th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Lyle,
I have an idea.
How about numbering each article so we can reference back to past articles more easily?
October 9th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Rashiid Amul #16
The PV sunroof won’t be an option I will get.
It is simply not strong enough to do me much good.
*** *** ***
I would have to agree, especially if it’s a pricey option. If it was included that would be a different story, and I would hope that if they put this option in it’s modular as opposed to “built in” so that it could be upgraded in the future with a more potent panel.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:08 am
#41 Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says
Statik, #30, I got your virus for stock exchange observation
in PARIS : 4.89€, down 14.5%
in AMSTERDAM : 35.7 $, up 13.67 %
in BRUSSELS :6.10 €, down 9.63%
What does that mean ?
All stock markets are up in Western Europe today.
———————————————-
I know you do JC, hehe. I’ve been following those markets quite closely as well. (Hard to chew the fat about them here, lol).
Even more interesting to me is the OMX (Iceland), closed until monday (maybe longer?). As far as I can tell Iceland’s main gig is banking…does the economy even do anything else? I don’t see their banking system getting out of this one…we thought it was bad elsewhere, geesh.
If they go bankrupt right across the board, I would think the ripple should be felt quite significantly throughout Europe and therefore the rest of the world? Your closer to it, so maybe you have a opinion.
/sorry about the hijack…JC made me do it…honest
October 9th, 2008 at 10:08 am
I like the PV roof, even though its really just a gimmick.
Why use the juice from the PV roof to run the A/C?
Just leave the windows open a crack & have a thermostat controlled fan.
Anyway, glad to hear Lutz give give a probability of 99.9%, & also glad to hear the project has, for the most part, been problem free.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:09 am
nataraj (#38)
That may still be true for Silicon, which must be heated to high temperatures to produce the crystalline materials which are sliced to make cells.
Thin films and CIGS cells are “printed” at low, even ambient temperatures, so much less energy is used to make them. Even though they would both produce less energy over their lifetimes, I think the carbon balance would end up being favorable.
Kdawg (#40):
“if i owned a parking lot, and could put in a 1-time cost of pay meters then sit back and let the $ start rolling in, I would”
I’m afraid it wouldn’t be a one time expense. In addition to the power itself, there’s also the necessity to maintain a data connection for the card-swiper. If you already have a network which can be extended to the garage (along with the power), it probably would be “easy money” … once you get into a total EV volume exceeding 1%; which could take over a decade.
This is the caveat for all alternatives to plugging in at home. How do you make a business decision for a market which may or may not emerge? I’ve seen at least two generations of far-sighted, too-early, now obsolete electric parking stations going unused. I predict that this time, Business will say “show me the numbers” before tearing up the pavement.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Since the battery operates at 30-80% charge (50% range), take Lutz’s 30% number times 40 miles. That’s 12 miles from sunlight over 3 days, or 4 miles over 1 day.
Take 4 miles times 300 average days over the year of driving at least a couple miles. That’s 1200 miles. At 50 mpg that saves 1200/50 = 24 gallons, or about $100 per year in California.
So, if this option increases my monthly payment significantly more than $10 per month, I would be unlikely to get it from a purely financial standpoint. I’ll bet the option will cost more like a couple thousand than a few hundred.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:13 am
I only hope that a PV roof option is a stand-alone option. GM, do not package this into some sort of tech package or comfort package because I do not want it. I do not want to pay for a PV, which will not benefit my overall experience with the Volt, just because I want an upgraded sound system or navigation or something else.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:19 am
#35 Statik
“Side note: This is very isolated math…only applicable if you live in the southwestern states and it is summertime, with uninterrupted light. But I think that keeps inline with Lutz statement, ‘3 hot blazing days of sun in a airport parking lot’”
—————————————–
Well, will miracles never cease. I have witnessed Statik actually agreeing with what Bob Lutz said. Is it possible that this is a new turning point for our friend, Statik? Somehow I truly doubt it.
Seriously, Statik, I really did enjoy your comment and you made it interesting at the same time. The link was good, too.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Rashiid Amul #16
The PV sunroof won’t be an option I will get.
It is simply not strong enough to do me much good.
#49 Grizzly
I would have to agree, especially if it’s a pricey option. If it was included that would be a different story, and I would hope that if they put this option in it’s modular as opposed to “built in” so that it could be upgraded in the future with a more potent panel.
———————————–
Well I have a PV system, costing is not really something I can reasonably do from my residential experience. I would probably put the basic hardware costs at around $1,500 to GM, then the integration costs on top…another $1,000?
So, probably $4,000-$5,000 to the consumer? Does that sound right? I mean they charge $800 to just cut a hole in the roof of a Mailibu.
If your curious about net average production per car on a 3×3 PV sheet on top of a car over the year, (assuming horizontal axis and 60% available time exposure), the formula would be as follows:
102w( 3′x3′@12w/sq.ft) x 365 x 4 (kWh/m2-Mean daily global insolation ) x .6 = 89.3kW.
Thats 11 total ‘fills’ or about $90 bucks worth of electricity.
PS to N Riley) See, I can agree with Lutz from time to time…if he is right, hehe. (In all seriousness, I don’t consider GM to be a enemy or anything, it just seems that way if you disagree alot (or 90% of the time). Thanks for the nod on the math/linkage…wasn’t sure if anyone would really care about the average daily hours of sunlight map, lol.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:24 am
#23 Cautious Fan
#56 Statik
Your arithmetic is OK, but I think you start with the wrong assumptions. Perhaps a better way to think about it might be:
The PV would add electricity when you *can’t* plug it in. It doesn’t replace plugging it in. It’s a supplement.
We already know AC use affects range, just as with IC engine cars.
If you have to park in the sun at work, a PV roof might keep the car cool, and/or add charge to the battery. This could prevent you running the AC full blast when you go home, plus perhaps add enough charge to make up for the AC use during the drive.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:33 am
#57 Bob
#23 Cautious Fan
#56 Statik
Your arithmetic is OK, but I think you start with the wrong assumptions. Perhaps a better way to think about it might be:
The PV would add electricity when you *can’t* plug it in. It doesn’t replace plugging it in. It’s a supplement.
We already know AC use affects range, just as with IC engine cars.
If you have to park in the sun at work, a PV roof might keep the car cool, and/or add charge to the battery. This could prevent you running the AC full blast when you go home, plus perhaps add enough charge to make up for the AC use during the drive.
————————————–
Yes, of course you are right. I should have added my post in #56 was strictly related to the monetary ‘value’ of the option. The best use of the $4,000-$5,000 dollars if it HAD to be put into the car would be to make the pack 50% bigger.
….but then we come back to the original point of the option, it looks cool. Which as I mentioned, makes it viable…moreso than say, 20″ chrome wheels or a skirt kit and a fin.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:43 am
#18 DC says
“Really? So “asking nicely” to set aside those spots is going to be the way to go? Seems like this is a huge issue that is going to have to be overcome. Garage parkers that have say assigned spots with no current outlets? Apartment owners aren’t just going to volunteer to wire up their parking garages. ”
——————————————————————————–
Maybe I’m crazy but shouldn’t the volt be out of the reach of “apartment” renters.
The bigger issue i think is for people who OWN townhouses, they’ll be a larger part of the buying population for the Volt. At least where i am most Townhouses have parking in-front or next to the building usually separated by grass & sidewalk. I don’t see how those existing communities setup plugging stations without doing major renovations. Not only will they have to run dedicated lines from the individual owner’s utilities, but the cost to do it per townhouse would be a couple thousand. Plus what about the communities that don’t have assigned spots? Then what? This isn’t even bringing into account the “association” and it’s rules.
Running extension cords just won’t work for a majority of people in townhouses, for the simple fact of a cord running across the sidewalk alone.
Bottom line is people who live in apartments/townhouses where all of their individual space is inside the dwelling and everything outside is considered “community space” are going to have a hard time with this, i don’t see any easy answers.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:44 am
It remains to be seen if the Volt will produced in 2010, if at all.
GM’s stock is trading at $5.66/share at this moment, and is headed lower. This article http://seekingalpha.com/article/99020-ford-gm-on-the-chopping-block?source=yahoo on Seeking Alpha provides some additional commentary.
Bottom line, as I’ve said for months, GM is on the fast track to Chapter 11.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:44 am
@ Cautious Fan, #23: “That amount of electricity off the grid will cost about $0.10. So if the PV roof costs $500, it’ll take 5000 PERFECT days, or 14 years, before you make your money back.”
Even if you wanted to see it this way, your calculations are wrong. IMO you shouldn’t compute the price of the electricity you are saving but the price of the gasoline you are saving.
At my local (Italian) fuel prices and considering the fuel mileage of a good efficient car such as the ones sold here (40/45 mpg) getting a charge (or better said an avoided discharge) equivalent to 4 miles means 50 eurocent ($ 0,70) saved each day so even if the roof cost € 500 ($ 700) it would pay itself off in less than 3 years AND, most importantly, I would get to forever enjoy getting into a cool/warm car…
As a matter of fact, provided it didn’t cost more than € 700-800 (around $ 1000) I would buy it even if I wouldn’t save any money at all, just to enjoy the added comfort with no further expenses other than the initial cost (i.e. no electricity/gasoline to run it).
October 9th, 2008 at 10:46 am
In any event, since 70% of our oil is imported, it seems like a really good idea for the U.S. government to set a minimum price for oil, and then raise oil import tariffs when the price goes below that point. This way, people like Bob Lutz won’t have to worry about the $1.25/gallon scenario, which means investment and development into alternative vehicles will increase substantially.—
———————————————————————————
This is an excellent suggestion which will probably be embraced by 99% of economists and 1% of political candidates.
Most voters are too short sighted to understand the benefit to them and their families of raising the price of gas.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:47 am
#34 Cautious Fan - “All the safety features you mentioned are theoretically available in an EREV without a PV roof. They run off the battery. And I haven’t read the PV will power the AC, only a small circulation fan.”
I was looking at Lutz’s statement that the roof “could function keep the A/C on when parked on hot summer days.” However, thinking about it, I think your assumption about the roof being too small to run the AC is correct. Unless it’s supplemented by the battery or there is some nifty AC unit, which is possible. I’d say you’re almost certainly correct that a PV panel on a car roof is not a cost effective way to produce electricity. That’s not surprising if for no other reason than solar is not a cost effective way to produce electricity period (rebates change that but those are incentives). It could of course save gas but a flat roof which is not necessarily well positioned in relation to the sun is problematic.
Having said that, if all it does is run a fan I’d probably get it anyway since from a safety standpoint it would still save lives. But that may just be my going overboard with safety features.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I think the market has changed significantly for oil. There is no other way to explain Tesla and the Th!nk City. People are now willing to pay more for a car that gives them “green cred” or just to say they don’t use gas.
——————————————————————–
I don’t think products with 0.01% market share can be used to prove the existence of a shift in the market.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:06 am
#57 Bob, Finally! Somebody that gets it. It’s like whenever the world solar is mentioned everyone gets out their financial calculator. Even when I try to explain that it extends the driver experience and has other value, most people just don’t get it… Yet. I know that after they experience what on-board solar can do they will feel lonely without it.
Don’t forget, this is just the start. Every year the solar efficiency will get better and the cost will come down. Soon, it might be standard on many EVs and plug-in hybrids.
Oh, I like the idea of different packages! There could be the ECO package that includes the solar panel as well as always-on Internet connection and interior cooling control. You can use your phone to call up to tell your Volt to start cooling. There could also be the extended security package that includes the solar panel as well as an enhanced security system that can send alerts to the driver if there is a problem with the car or possibly a theft. The possibilities are endless. Not to mention it could be an even stronger statement of your “greenness”. People see that beautiful solar roof and know you are the man. The green man. Eco man. lol.
There will be all these exaggerated stories like, “Man, it was so hot today I drove home using only the sun!” Or, It’s so cold here my PV couldn’t warm up that cup of coffee.”
I want my MPV!
October 9th, 2008 at 11:10 am
If they truly are ahead of schedule, I suggest they reconsider the release date to perhaps Fall of 2009 instead of Fall 2010. Make the Volt a 2010 vehicle.
Let me think, should I buy stocks now with my $32K or wait 2 years for the 2011 Volt?
NPNS.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:17 am
#61 Scossa
Fair point on the cost. If you drive less than 40 / day, use electricity costs. If more use gasoline costs of around $0.40 (U.S. gas). Static posted some better information on the cost of a PV roof. My $500 guess I just pulled out to show how uneconomical it is. #56 Static estimates the cost to be closer to $4,000 and that “feels” right to me. So asuming worst case commute (>40 miles), best case weather (100% sunshine), and a dirt cheap $2,500 option, that takes 17 years to pay off. Your 3 year estimate differs from this one because you use more expensive gas and a far cheaper roof.
Nothing is stopping GM from running a cooling fan off the battery. With no PV you could still climb into a cool car.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:20 am
>In any event, since 70% of our oil is imported, it seems like a really good idea for the U.S. government to set a minimum price for oil, and then raise oil import tariffs when the price goes below that point.<
An interesting idea, and a good one — especially if the tariffs went directly into r&d or to offset prices of cars like the Volt. However, it would be political suicide for the legislature and President to sign.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:20 am
#63 DonC
I agree with you about the small fan idea. To me this seems like a no-brainer application. It is relatively cheap…and more importantly also alow drain measure to keep the interior car temperature relatively ambient to the outside temperature.
I’m not sure what the draw on the battery would be to keep the temperate even a few degrees cooler inside the car than outside. Considering that you needed a sealed environment to achieve this and you are also battling escalating interior temperatures on a hot/sunny day. But I’m guessing it would be pretty huge releatively speaking.
ie) What is the draw to cool a car to 90 degrees inside, when it is 100 degrees and sunny outside?
October 9th, 2008 at 11:21 am
You are probably still better off parking underground, rather than in the sun, if you can.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:33 am
30 Statik:
The short sale restriction on GM ended today.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:35 am
@ Cautious Fan, #67
Understand and agree with what you say. The point of my original reply was that until we know how much the PV roof option exactly costs and what it exactly does, we can’t so easily discount it as “ridiculously stupid and nonsensical”.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:40 am
#71 Morgan
30 Statik: The short sale restriction on GM ended today.
————————————————-
Yeah, I didn’t put that together at first blush on the numbers. Thanks for the post.
I did put it together a few posts later in #47 as a possible cause though…just took me a minute or two to connect the dots. (I still can’t believe GM was included in that to begin with…although to be fair, I guess it was almost a situation where if you sent the gov’t a letter you could be added to the list).
#47 Statik (Me):
“No reason (for drop), other than fear of insolvency. I’ll take my Volt to go, ASAP please. Err wait, the short selling ban was lifted today. That being said, I still have zero clue where this is going to end today…could be anywhere. How can ‘regular’ people stomach owning something like this?”
October 9th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Cautious Fan #34, #23
I have always agreed with you and this line of reasoning 100%. With that said I will buy the PV option unless I am priced out of it. I live in the high desert and park my car in an uncovered lot at work. I climbed in one day this summer, tried not to touch anything and burned my hand painfully just shifting. Also I have a two year old son and if I was to step out of the car and close the door and get into an argument with someone like Tagamet or static, then knowing the car would stay cool even if I didn’t would be priceless. Cost curves macro or micro, can be affected by emotions.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:48 am
PV roof is an option which I will look at like any other “cool” option (leather seats, fog lights, fancy rims/wheels etc.). Since I live in AZ I would appreciate the feature of keeping the car cooler (less hot) while it sits but the main consideration is whether it adds significantly to the looks…it may just look darn cool (it does in the Fisker pix)…..and then like any option it comes down to the price.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:55 am
73 Statik:
Sorry about that…at work, didn’t have time to read every post even read worthy posts such as yours
At this point and the recent JD Powers prediction of a global auto market collapse in 2009….They should save some cash and file now realistically. As you know I am a strong supporter of GM due to my personal upbringing but…Toyota is having an almighty struggle in this market and is concerned about THEIR future. That should speak volumes for GM’s chances.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am
“Lutz also describes the Volt’s cold-weather algorithm. If the driver turns on the car when its too cold for the battery to properly function, the ICE will go on automatically to condition the battery before shutting off and going to electric drive.”
So.. here in New England we wouldn’t get the 40-miles-without-a-drop-of-gas thing 5-6 months out of the year? Hm…….
October 9th, 2008 at 11:59 am
The idea of an expensive credit card type charger is out of the question for most places and I doubt could be justified economically - I mean, do you really want to spend thousands of dollars to
avoid someone stealing 50 cents worth of power, if that much?
Most condos already have security parking areas - I simply can’t believe that an “electricity crook” would park his car, which obviously doesn’t belong there, in one spot for hours, at the risk of getting towed, in order to get a few cents worth of juice. My old condo is simply getting ready to install outlets at several open locations. Any
charges would be paid at the front desk. Nothing fancy. My old condo pays around 6.5 cents per kilowatthour. At a 2 kilowatt draw
rate that amounts to a big $3 per day if the outlet is used
continuously 24 hours per day. The condo’s yearly budget exceeds $1 million dollars. I don’t see any reason for charging anybody anything. Not at this point.
As more people buy plug-ins, then outlets will be installed at individual spaces, and people will have to pay.
Hey, folks, it’s not as though suddenly tomorrow everyone is going
to show up driving a plug-in.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
#74 Jeffhre
Not getting burned is a fair reason. So is making a statement. Regarding safety, nothing would stop GM from running a fan from battery power either though. PV isn’t required for this, though I suspect if you hit the battery depletion point the fan would turn off.
#72 Scossa
And likewise Scossa. I think it’s important to consider alternatives and costs, and not just support something because it has a buzzword in it. Until we know the cost, the answer has a lot of uncertainty in it.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
#14 Rashiid Amul:
Amen! God willing that gas should go down to $1.25/gallon, this time I’m gonna do my bit to keep it there!
#28 Statik:
Well how about N-S? In the words of the Prophet, it would save a lot of keystrokes.
#29 Texas:
Right. My wife parks in a parking structure, and the car will be in the garage at home. Even so, I love the PV roof. The cool factor is not to be denied - no pun intended. Otherwise, as someone pointed out here months ago, everyone would be driving an Aveo.
Statik nailed it at #58. It’s more useful than 20″ whells or skirt kits (fin???). And this is LA man. 20″ wheels are yesterday’s news. 24″ or forget it. PLENTY of people here have wheels which are worth way more than their car. Although…..I may have to eat my words if he is right about the cost of the option, LOL.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
#76 Morgan
73 Statik:
Sorry about that…at work, didn’t have time to read every post even read worthy posts such as yours
At this point and the recent JD Powers prediction of a global auto market collapse in 2009….They should save some cash and file now realistically. As you know I am a strong supporter of GM due to my personal upbringing but…Toyota is having an almighty struggle in this market and is concerned about THEIR future. That should speak volumes for GM’s chances.
————————————————
I think we are on the virtual same page.
I’ve been putting GM in 11 since…well, whenever this site started. Things have only gotten worse…crazy worse. Like, all-time worse. Auto industry isn’t quite the beast it is today that it was in the 20s and 30s, lol.
I don’t know if it is possible for GM to save cash, pre-bankruptcy.
But spending, borrowing and stealing as much captial as you can before you go Chapter 11, then turning around and ‘blowing it all,’ knowing you won’t be repaying it, to produce future infrastructures, complete expensive R&D, complete future production lines and get cost efficiencies down before you go bankrupt is kind of the same thing…and is exactly what I believe GM is doing right now with Volt and the entire flex line programs.
Unfortunately with this type of plan the order of the day out of the executives mouths is alot of BS. Which although, it is the right thing to do for them fiscally, it drives me insane…especially when you see people investing in the company, or the gov’t/banks giving them money they have no intention to repay.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I like the idea of being able to leave the air conditioner on. However, I hope that the air conditioner is on a different switch than the ignition. If it isn’t, leaving the air conditioner on would be an invitation to steal the car and I don’t want to lose it.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
81 Statik:
The government is doing some CRAZY things lately so anything is possible. Heck, by 2009 there could be General Ford or General American Motors consisting of Ford Chrysler and GM.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Heyley # 77 says,
So.. here in New England we wouldn’t get the 40-miles-without-a-drop-of-gas thing 5-6 months out of the year? Hm…….
———-
Well, that depends. I live in Connecticut and my garage rarely goes below 42 degrees F. My garage is below the house and will admit that when it drops below 42, the Modine kicks on and heats the garage. It is very loud, which is why I know it doesn’t go on very often. The battery should work fine at 42 F.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
This is nothing to do really with the thread topic…but Volt related.
This is some video of the official opening of the Volt/Cruze engine plant. It also has some spiffy animations on the Volt, some shots of it driving around and saying, “Hi, look at me, I’m sexy.” The Wagoner comes in at the end to throw cold water on the whole thing my opening his big yap and telling us nothing.
http://www.mediaseed.tv/Story.aspx?story=35755
So if your bored and desperate for any new contend, this is a link for you. Enjoy.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
>> So.. here in New England we wouldn’t get the 40-miles-without-a-drop-of-gas thing 5-6 months out of the year? Hm…….
If you go to work and leave the car parked outside all day without a plug, there’s no way to avoid it. The startup process will run the engine for a little bit.
Of course, range itself will be reduced, simply from the need to run the electric heater to keep you warm while driving.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Kent Beuchert #78
“Most condos already have security parking areas - I simply can’t believe that an “electricity crook” would park his car, which obviously doesn’t belong there, in one spot for hours, at the risk of getting towed, in order to get a few cents worth of juice. My old condo is simply getting ready to install outlets at several open locations.”
*** *** ***
That didn’t make any sense to me either, certainly not in a condo/townhouse parking lot. Residents know who belongs there and who does not so I don’t really see that as an issue. My townhouse community has numbered spaces and I’d like to see some sort of retrofit that would put an outlet right by my space so I won’t have to run an extension cord across the sidewalk to my weatherproof outlets on the front stoop.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
# 83 Morgan wrote:
“The government is doing some CRAZY things lately so anything is possible. Heck, by 2009 there could be General Ford or General American Motors consisting of Ford Chrysler and GM.”
I’m looking forward to a 2012 E-Flex AMC Pacer Wagon with that woodgrain vinyl running down the sides !
October 9th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Statik #85
Glad to see that that glass is still looking “half full” to you.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
PV rooftop….
Totally depends on the cost. Someone here said ~$200 in which I laugh. IF it only cost $200, yeah give me that option. If it $1000, which I think is closer to the real price, I’d easily pass. Also, its also hard to guage what ou are willing to pay on options without knowing the MSRP.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Overheard at a Chevy sales lot in the year 2012:
“Look dear, it’s got the optional roof top trickle charger!”
October 9th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
I don’t think you can equate a house Solar system with a car’s on-board Solar system at any point, statik.
Your house system is most likely based on silicon wafers which are very expensive and fragile. In order to put them on your roof, it was necessary to fully enclose them, front and back, and protect them from the weather with a transparent cover. The enclosure had to be strong enough to handle wind and snow loads (to say nothing of keeping the cells dry in a rainstorm, and as for hail … it doesn’t bear thinking about).
The roof most likely to go on the Volt will be based on thin film; inefficient by comparison but much cheaper, and much more rugged. Vibration which could damage a crystal wouldn’t faze a film-based cell; and in fact, the whole array would amount to little more than a series of coatings over an existing body part.
Further, the case for solar on a house vs a car is a completely different one. You have to very carefully cost out the installation over it’s lifetime, taking into account where and how it is specifically sited; and figure in the exchange rate of your electric utility. On a car, location and use begin to supercede such considerations.
In my area we have “School Speed Limit [X]mph When Flashing” signs which are powered by solar arrays. In many cases, these signs sit under a conventional power line. The cost of the electricity must be much higher for the sign coming from the solar array than it would be from the grid. However, it must be that so much money is saved by not having a buried line to go up a pole to a meter and transformer that it becomes a no-brainer (every new such installation I’ve seen for the past year uses these signs).
The fact that the array is on a car verses a house changes virtually everything about Solar. The added value of safety, range and mobility add a value which is much more difficult to calculate, using a technology which itself is drastically different.
NOTE: CIGS cells are more efficient and costly than thin films, but share many of the advantages (any shape, more rugged etc), and I predict this would be the next step beyond thin film.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
I keep getting the feeling that GM has a board of directors that does not get the fact that MPG records exist world wide for the last Thirty years . 6 Billion people are watching to see what you do .
Not just the ones on this sight . The question is how many of your own cars can you buy and still keep your selves in buissiness ?
I have the feeling that this one message may not get through but I do have some HOPE .
God Bless
Edwin Mang Jr.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
I love the Idea of keeping the AC on. It doesn’t need to run constantly, but cycling on and off every once in a while will be nice. Even to keep the car at a “cool” 100 degrees would be nice. I live in Phoenix and my car has no shade at work. My Dash Express GPS has already died because of the heat. My car is white, has tinted windows, a sunshade in it, and I crack the windows. Not much more I can do to get it cooled down.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Lutz:
“It’s clear the thing is going to cost many thousand dollars more than we had hoped for the first generation technology. So what do we do about that?
Initially there will be enough demand from rich people, so there won’t be a worry for the first year or two. But if we want to generalize the technology the price has to come down.”
This is why I have been consistently planning on 2012, not 2011 as many posters do. I hope that those rich beta-testers find all the bugs, and that GM is still around in 4 years.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
#92 Jackson
I don’t think you can equate a house Solar system with a car’s on-board Solar system at any point, statik.
Your house system is most likely based on silicon wafers which are very expensive and fragile. In order to put them on your roof, it was necessary to fully enclose them, front and back, and protect them from the weather with a transparent cover. The enclosure had to be strong enough to handle wind and snow loads (to say nothing of keeping the cells dry in a rainstorm, and as for hail … it doesn’t bear thinking about).
The roof most likely to go on the Volt will be based on thin film; inefficient by comparison but much cheaper, and much more rugged. Vibration which could damage a crystal wouldn’t faze a film-based cell; and in fact, the whole array would amount to little more than a series of coatings over an existing body part.
Further, the case for solar on a house vs a car is a completely different one. You have to very carefully cost out the installation over it’s lifetime, taking into account where and how it is specifically sited; and figure in the exchange rate of your electric utility. On a car, location and use begin to supercede such considerations.
The fact that the array is on a car verses a house changes virtually everything about Solar. The added value of safety, range and mobility add a value which is much more difficult to calculate, using a technology which itself is drastically different.
——————————————————-
Um, I’m not sure, but what is your point to me? I think maybe you are arguing something you perceive to be in my posts, but aren’t really there.
A) by solar housing experience in relation to the Volt
B) the raw cost of solar collectors
I prefaced my ‘math’ on solar costing in #56 by saying:
“Well I have a PV system, costing is not really something I can reasonably do from my residential experience,” then I continued into my guesstimating just based on expected auto-business related issues.
Besides that, and what seems to be the bulk of your post, I didn’t stipulate at ANY point that the cells themselves were anywhere near the problem when getting to the cost.
It is all the rest of the stuff, the hardware as a whole, the wiring, the inverter, the integration, the product lab testing to make sure the application works, the paying human beings $25/hour to do the conversion, etc., etc.
A 60 watt Kaneka panel ‘old school’ (which is actually amorphous) is $180 bucks, we only need about 90 watts, thats $270 in raw panelling cost. I don’t care if your thin film is free, this is such a small application, that portion of the cost it is near irrelevant.
I already said that it was ‘cool,’ and is better than/offers alot more than oother options, but from a monetary standpoint only… it makes no sense.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
#4 Gsned57:
ECD is a good guess. Another Ovshinshy technology. GM had a good relationship with him on the development of the related NiMH technologies for the EV-1. That may have gone downhill somewhat after they sold that joint venture to Chevron… which pretty much destroyed it through strangling Cobasys.
Still the ECD material has some advantages for cars. It’s not brittle, and can conform to a curved rooftop. It’s not terribly expensive. It doesn’t have a high power output, but it does support its lower power output in more types of lighting conditions. (eg, it doesn’t produce as high a power as silicon in bright sunlight, but produces more in low light, relatively).
I would totally consider a solar roof option to keep the car cool. Depends on how much it costs for that luxury. By the time the \Volt is released I’ll be more worried about my kids trying to climb out of the car than getting stuck in it so it’ll definitely be a luxury by then for me.
Much better than just having an otherwise functionally useless black roof to otherwise melt the interior of your car. I’m not too happy with \Volt’s black roof styling thing. Might look cool but cool it isn’t!
October 9th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
How will the system provide DEFROST for the windows in the winter?
If the A/C operates in reverse as a heat-pump to provide warmth, what will dehumidify the air so condensation doesn’t build up on the glass?
In both traditional vehicles and FULL hybrids, this is accomplished by running both the Heater and A/C at the same time. If Volt only has a single system available, how will it condition the winter air to deal with both cold & moisture?
October 9th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Photovoltaic roof is a goofy idea. Talk about point of diminished returns.
October 9th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Since the government has taken over the entire US economy they should solve the cheap oil dilemma by banning the commercial import of any foreign oil. Oil companies that need crude for US refineries would be required to purchase it from the US government which will acquire it as needed on the world markets. Offshore US crude would be similarly controlled by the States, giving them rebates for income.
The US govt would then set the US market price for crude, supporting the price to perhaps at least $2.00/gal of gasoline and etc for other oil products. Hopefully the govt could manage to make a small middleman profit when world crude prices are high(just pass it through) and make a windfall when world crude prices fall to more economic levels.
These revenues could support US produced electric cars, US production of batteries, nuclear power, clean coal, and the development of shale to ethanol or something else good to drink.
If you like this idea, you don’t understand taxes.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Statik (#96)
I was responding to
” I would probably put the basic hardware costs at around $1,500 to GM, then the integration costs on top…another $1,000?
So, probably $4,000-$5,000 to the consumer? Does that sound right?”
$1500 doesn’t sound like $180 in terms of hardware. I can’t comment on integration testing etc, though the thin film / CIGS approach strikes me as needing much less physical integration than inflexible wafers; but shouldn’t that sort of research be spread over the total number of cars?
But then you say
“They charge $800 just to put a hole in a Malibu.”
If you honestly think that GM is going to price a thin-film solar array at $4000 - $5000, then the most outspoken GM detractors are correct: GM is just looking for the most plausible way to screw the consumer.
Which means, they’re doomed.
And Let Them Die.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I’m surprised Statik hasn’t posted yet (sorry if I missed)… GM shares closed down today to their lowest levels since 1950 (ie. in 58 years)…. of course the other automakers also taking significant hits. Biggest percent drop of the DJIA since that black (red) day in 1987.
See http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/081009/business_us_gm_shares.html
Renewed talks GM will be declaring bankruptcy at some point… Europe sales also down as this appears to be headed for a worldwide recession.
I sure hope GM is committed to the Volt regardless, but GM also needs to be building affordable and fuel efficient (40+ mpg) cars as even the rich may not be able to afford a Volt when their stock portfolio is performing so poorly
October 9th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Not sure if it’s gratifying or creepy that his scenario is identical to the one I put forwards months ago about how the Volt makes for a great car for those of us who have to park for long periods IF there was a means of keeping the battery topped off and conditioned. My airport prospect must not be that uncommon.
The Volt is very nearly my ideal car. Now I just have to hope that I can afford one.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I don’t get why people here are arguing PV panel base on return on investment. If that is your reason for not getting the solar option then you aren’t buying the Volt. It makes a lot more sense to buy a fuel efficient ICE car for less than $20 000 and spend the $20 000 you saved on gas.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Stupid idea.
Not worth the time and effort. PV’s are about the most un-eco friendly devices on the planet. They take much more resources than they will ever return.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Jackson #95
“IInitially there will be enough demand from rich people, so there won’t be a worry for the first year or two. But if we want to generalize the technology the price has to come down.”
This is why I have been consistently planning on 2012, not 2011 as many posters do. I hope that those rich beta-testers find all the bugs, and that GM is still around in 4 years.”
*** *** ***
Certainly the first 10K are going to go to the rich. Simple economics with high demand and few units, GM would be stupid to give those away. The price will come down as suppliers ramp up and packs start to be produced in volume.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
#104 Jack
But what would be the point of that? I don’t want to sound trite on this subject, but most people wanting a Volt are willing to spend the money because they WANT THE CAR.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Better hurry.
Couple more days like today and we will be able to buy GM for $40,000
October 9th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
GM finally has a nice product. Hope that they are still around in 2010.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Well, its been fun anticipating the arrival of the Volt. Too bad it will never hit the showroom after GM declares bankruptcy…
October 9th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Actually, my logic for the PV system wouldn’t be an investment return, it would be more for my personal security. While battery conditioning and parking lot issues abound, I really want it for the emergency charge it can give me when I have no gas OR power available. If I have to make an emergency run to the hospital in the aftermath of a hurricane that knocks power out for two weeks, the PV will supply everything I need, seeing as I certainly wouldn’t be going to work that week (judging by last time…). In the meantime, I can plug into the car’s lighter or whatever it has and tap some of that solar power and the giant battery to keep my cell operating in the interim. I use a similar system at my house now and it’s great. Charging isn’t fast from 80 watts, but with three deep cycles it runs the freezer and everything during storms. I can only imagine that the Volt will have better efficiency and is a heck of a lot easier to move.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
er, after hours it says $4.85, with market cap less than 3 billion. In other news, US National debt clock broke, it ran out of numbres.
Volt ? They had their chance when they debuted the series hybrid version of EV1 back in 1998.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I hate when Lutz says he wants the genset to warm the batteries. That’s the most stupid solution. The car is going to be plugged in at night anyway, this gives the car all the power it needs to heat the battery pack using electricity prior to unplugging and driving off.
Lutz has been the most unreliable source for Volt information since the beginning. Let’s hope this is just more of the same.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
tHE CHEVY Volt realy needs some re styling in the back it is the eye sore of the car the car looks realy good until you get to the back!!!!!
October 9th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
The back of the chevy volt needs some re styling because it is the eye sore of the car. Everything else except the navigation screen looks realy nice but when you get to the back it dosent look realy good with the lights and the black glass!!!!
October 9th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
If GM declares bankruptcy, it might be because of a strategic move not an act of desperation. It could allow them to make a faster turn with a ship that is/was headed towards the rocks.
I believe now is a good time to buy blue chip stocks. I just bought into GE since