Grab our RSS Feed

AND

GM’s Electric History

October 8th, 2008 | Posted in: EV-1

Most people coming here either for the first time or regularly are likely to have heard about the EV-1, GM’s previous electric. But not as well known is GM’s more distant electric vehicle history. Automotive News has an excellent article detailing some of that.

From 1912 to 1917 GM built a line of electric trucks. In the early to mid 1960s GM built several electric car prototypes. They were called the Electrovair I and II and were based on the Chevy Corvair. These cars used silver-zinc batteries and had from 40 to 80 mile ranges. The gas crisis of the 1970s prompted the appearance of an electric Chevy Chevette.

It was in 1990 that GM introduced the forebear concept car to the EV-1. It was called the Impact and was a two-seater with 120 mile range. A 50 car test fleet was built in 1993 and was driven by 1000 consumers and utility companies. Encouraged by the Impact’s performance, GM went on to build the EV-1.

The EV-1 was introduced in 1996, and 1000 were built between 1996 and 1999.

The EV-1’s waiting list, a paltry 5000 people (compared to the 44,000 already here on GM-Volt.com) apparently only led to 50 qualified lessees. Having spent $1 billion on the program, GM found current and future servicing those cars too expensive and combined with the departure of the CARB mandate, pulled the plug and crushed them.

Despite the ensuing conspiracy theories, GM learned a great deal from the EV-1 experience and it has led to the Volt program.

GM vice chair Bob Lutz has noted that EV-1 development "solved a lot of fundamental problems" on how to engineer an electric vehicle. He also notes that those GM engineers initially working on the EV-1 program, "were scattered in the wind," but now that the Volt program is active, GM "got them all back," thinking, "their ship has come in."

Source (Automotive News )

Posted by: Lyle

123 Responses to “GM’s Electric History”

Ray Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:21 am

Other than some software programing… the basic car should be ready now (subject to battery availability..) I am ready to test drive a preproduction VOLT now.. Send one to me in Central Alberta Canada… Winter is coming and that will be a real test..

GM … you need to get the VOLT out to the people by 2010 in BULK…
All black … inside and out… with all the options..

I have deposit in hand.

(Quote)
Rudi Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:22 am

Having only bought one new vehicle (2006 Pontiac Torrent) do you think dealers will even let a guy trade in their vehicle plus money of course for one of the first Volts when they arrive?

Perhaps I should start my search for an Electrovair now.

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:39 am

Electrical problems often involve imaginary numbers (crazy “i”). Let’s hope this latest push for EVs becomes real, takes root, and flourishes.

(Quote)
Ash Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:40 am

Crushing Ev1’s was a mistake. Nothing GM is doing now and in future is an excuse for it. History will not be kind to GM in that front.

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Sounds like a rough history for GM electric vehicles…easy case for Volt naysayers.

#3
Even techincally inclined folks have trouble understanding electrical systems. The older gearheads tend to shy away from tackling electrical issues.

Any electric vehicle will be a tough sale if not done correctly.

(Quote)
GM Customer Support Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:52 am

Dear Ray, thank you for your interest in GM. We appreciate your offer to test a Volt in the Canadian winter. However at this time we have no plans to release the Volt in Canada. Perhaps you would be interested in purchasing one of our Hummers? We currently have quite a few available and from how you describe your country a Hummer seems like a better fit for you. Again, thank you for your interest in GM products.

Sincerely,
GM Customer Support

(Quote)
Rudi Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:58 am

#6 I am not quite sure how to take your sarcasm. If GM actually restricts the Volt to the US and A, I will be driving to Montana like a fat kid chasing a cheeseburger.

Has there been any further talks around the Wait List here? Maybe GM should undertake the same approach Aptera did on there site to secure a vehicle.

(Quote)
Chris Atchley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:59 am

The problem is in the parts. Auto Manufacturers make money on the original sale, but also on the parts sold later. The infrastructure is not in place to service these vehicles, (There will be an occasional lemon, just like any other car). Imagine buying one and having a problem right off the bat? If the parts, service centers, or training are not in place, we would Howl! I think GM is doing the right thing and making sure everything is in place before releasing the Volt.
I am making do on my existing vehicle until the Volt arrives, but I had not intended to buy a new vehicle until 2010 anyway, so for me the release date is perfect.

(Quote)
DC Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:13 am

@Chris Atchely / #8

Its my understanding this is one of the reasons for a limited Volt release, they will have to make sure the dealers are trained and up to speed on all the new service equipment for the Volt.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:24 am

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

(Quote)
Volt T's Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:25 am

There have been electric vehicles since the car was invented. Phylis Diller (sic) remembered riding to the theater as a child in one ( from Who Killed the Electric Car).

(Quote)
Bearclaw Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:28 am

About servicing the Volt. I agree that the infastructure needs to be in place to service these vehicles. However, I do remember a part of Who Killed the Electric Car where they were interviewing the service technicians on the EV1 and he said the car was almost maintenance free. The brakes will almost never need to be replaced because of the regen and there are few moving parts to replace. I have a feeling the Volt will be pretty close to the EV1 in service requirements with a very rare service for the ICE for many years and by the time they do come in for service it will be well up and running. I’m not worried. Of course I am in Detroit so if they can’t fix it here then…

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:31 am

The other problem with the EV-1 that no one talks about is that it was a totally custom car. Unlike the Volt, the EV-1 did not come from any GM platform making it extremely expensive to produce. Aside from die hard EV enthusiasts, the car was a tough sale with it’s range anxiety and price.

(Quote)
Gordon Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am

So far I have learned from following this website is that the VOLT will be a fantastic $40,000 car. Those interior shots of all the gizmos in the center stack are really impressive. The mistake will be that GM will not make ANY ‘base models’ with just AM/FM/CD + A/C and a Heater… say for around $21,995 tops. Sure, the first batch will be far superior to a Prius, and from what I’ve been reading here, that is the benchmark everyone compares to, but why not make them basic and inexpensive? Many of you here have used the ‘Model-T’ reference. I think you are correct. It must be less expensive so all can afford one.

(Quote)
Ignatius Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:35 am

Considering that there are only 10,000 available for launch, I’d assume that it’s going to be all US for awhile.

(Quote)
Silv Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:36 am

If the Volt charger is not the limiting factor, then what prevents us to have 2000V charging stations where you could charge it in 15′?
Maybe after we have at least 100k Volts running, we’ll get some powerful charging stations. that would be really good, because the average gas pump stop is at least 10′.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:43 am

Gordon # 14

“, but why not make them basic and inexpensive?”

*** *** ***

The expense of the Volt is not the interior, it’s the development of new technology and the battery pack. Hopefully the price will come down, but for $38-40K those few people willing to pay for the initial 10K units are going to expect an interior like that for a car in that price range.

I can’t understand why people think that GM should give away the first 10K units. It’s simple supply and demand and they would sell at $50K. Call the first 10K copies niche if you want, that’s what people said about the iphone and now just about anyone can get one inexpensively.

(Quote)
JonP. Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:49 am

Geeesssshhh

More EV-1 talk, slow news day……

good to see that GM has been toying with electrics since Toyota was making Zero’s! Or was that mitsubishi?

Statik,
How about the markets. Should i start hording Gas in 50gal drums, and break out the M5’s, Body armor, and Night vision gogles?

(Quote)
Gsned57 Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am

Man, I hope I don’t have to wait another 100 years to get my EV! I don’t think my 86 Vanagon can make it that long. I’m in the NPNS club and if I have to get another older beater before my EV get’s on the road so be it. But as for supporting the auto industry with a new car purchase it’s still NPNS.

What I find hard to swallow is how could they have old EV’s getting 40 – 80 miles on a charge with craptastic batteries and the volt with Lithium power still only gets 40 on a charge? I know, I know, it weighs a whole lot more because of safety standards and the battery is a lot smaller than those old concepts.

I guess on the plus side, the volt is a car, with the same look, feel, and drive as any car on the road today (just a lot quieter). I have to imagine those old concepts were giant batteries on a chassis and rode like hell.

I want a a little LCD bumper sticker on my volt that gives the number of miles driven since my last gas fillup. Kind of like McDonalds says the number of burgers sold.

Side note, what are the chances that we haven’t heard any news about the battery contract because they are testing EESTOR technology/vaporware?

(Quote)
Ken Grubb Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:55 am

In the past, I’ve been very critical of GM for crushing the EV1s. Since their recent apparent about face, now proceeding on the right course, IMHO, I’m very enthusiastic about the Volt. Got my T-shirt and everything.

I do feel their pain about offering an EV only vehicle with no EV infrastructure out there. However, the Volt, IMHO, presses the envelope as far forward as they can at this time. Should an EV infrastructure emerge, Volt seems the likeliest production vehicle, once produced, to evolve into an EV only.

(Quote)
old man Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am

I believe that large trucks will soon [5--10 years] be diesel electric as are current trains and ships. It will be along time if ever that they will incorporate a battery. But simple diesel electric should give much better mpg. remember the train commercial , we move a ton of freight 423 miles on a gallon of fuel. would help our oil import problem

(Quote)
Dale Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:19 am

GM – your time is running out. You need to drop what you are doing and get some different cars (like the volt) to market. You and ford are already bankrupt so get on with it

(Quote)
Chris Atchley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:23 am

BTW, has GM released any Safety or Crash data on the Volt yet?

I’d hate to get in an accident and get electrocuted, how many amps is the pack again???

(Quote)
Bob Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:25 am

#10

WTF is LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! ??

(Quote)
Volt T's Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am

Yea Bob that is bugging me too I see it all the time from some posters and I assume its some sort of “inside” joke I am yet not privy too. Ill just go back to my corner and sulk.

(Quote)
RdG Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:32 am

I had almost guessed it (let’s just get the volt working on the road) but indeed it is officially:

Let’s

Just

Get

The

Volts

Wheels

On

the

Road

——

No

Plug

No

Sale

(Quote)
Constantin Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:42 am

Why the GM took with force the EV1 fromt their buyers? You should let them to drive it on the roads.I hope the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car?” is not the true anwer because I worry for the VOLT wich is an amaising car A GREAT CAR !!!
I hope that the Volt will not live the EV1’s history!!!
And why the Volt has only a 40 miles range but the EV1 had a 120 miles range ??? Please answer…
By the way I am from Europe,and I think that the VOLT should be for sale at the same time in EU and US !!!

(Quote)
Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:43 am

WTF = you already know.
LJGTVWOTR = “let’s just get the volt’s wheels on the road”
NPNS = “no plug, no sale”

IASFMLASAIGWED – NIYEMINTTAE = “I am suffering from ‘multi-letter acronym syndrome,’ and it’s getting worse every day. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to take an Excedrin.”

(Quote)
Van Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:48 am

The interesting thing in this article is the idea of selling 60,000 Volts in 2011 vice the 10,000 other stories have suggested. Wish we could pin that down.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Constantin #27

“Why the GM took with force the EV1 fromt their buyers? You should let them to drive it on the roads.
I hope that the Volt will not live the EV1’s history!!!”

*** *** ***

Big difference between the Volt and the Ev-1. The EV-1, like the Honda EV plus and the Rav4 EV all cam from CA. mandates. They were all taken back and crushed, except for 300+ Rav4EVs.

The Volt came from competition, or anticipated competition not a mandate. When Bob Lutz saw that the Tesla roadster could be produced by a silicon valley startup, the question was clear as to why Detroit couldn’t do the same. With the current price of oil, the time could not have been better and the rest is history.

(Quote)
solo Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

#27 Constantin

The EV1 never NEVER had a 120 mile range. A professional driver on a cool day at an oval track driving a constant speed might be able to get 120 miles out of the second generation EV-1. The range was greatly exagerated to make the car look better than it was.

The EV1 was a 2 seat car and the battery pack accounted for almost 1/3 the weight of the vehicle.

The Chevy volt with a 40 mile range and other cars coming out like it will be an order of magnitude better as every day vehicles.

(Quote)
Ignatius Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

The EV1’s supposed range was about 40-80 miles, depending on the generation, age of the battery pack, temperature and driving conditions.

That alone would be enough to meet any needs, I don’t travel.

I’d have gladly taken an EV1 if I had gotten the chance.

(Quote)
statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

What is this electric car talk? Is GM making a electric car? Surely such a thing cannot be built. Is it a flying electric car like I seen at GM’s Futurama exhibit at the 1939 World’s Fair in New York?

I still waiting for my order on one of these…I put $42.50 of hard earned money down:

http://shl.stanford.edu/Bucky/dymaxion/flyingcar.jpg

—————————————————-

#24 Bob says:
WTF is LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! ??

Probably just some elitest nonsense that all the people who have no lives and post here all the time say.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

#21 old man

I don’t believe the trains can go 423 miles on a gallon of fuel. I think they were stating some other version of that. If they could do that, then why don’t we all have diesel to electric cars and trucks? I just think that statement isn’t correct as you stated it.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

#27 Constantin

The European car market is quite different from the U.S. market. Different requirements all the way from the type of fuel that is acceptable, to size of the vehicle, to the governmental requirements that automakers have to meet. Europe has some very fine autos that would be great over here in the U.S. at this time, but can’t meet our emission or crash standards. Ford, GM and Chrysler are working to produce global cars that would meet all requirements, but it is a big job.

Europe will get the Volt in late 2011, most likely.

(Quote)
Chris Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

#34. N Riley
The milage reference I believe is from a CSX commercial where they say something like ‘We can move a ton of freight 423 miles on a gallon of fuel.

The locomotives of course do not get 423 miles / gallon.

Chris

(Quote)
chevonly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

If this happens than what will happen and it could be or will it be. YOU GUYS KILL ME WITH YOUR RABID SPECULATION. The car is not even in production and the worry worts are out in force coming up with problem scenarios out of thin air. GM has been building vehicles for 100 years now PLEASE PLEASE GIVE THEM SOME CREDIT. When did the people in this country start thinking this way are you watching old tapes of Bush and Rummy and their messed up way of thinking, why do you think GM is doing all of this testing????????

(Quote)
kent beuchert Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

The Corvair Monza Spyder convertible I would rate as one of the all-time great cars. Unfortunately, Ralph Nader published a bunch of lies about the car, claiming it was a rollover car – it wasn’t ( I notice
that Nader never mentioned the VW Beetle, the most rolled over car ever built – also the one that experienced the most engine fires).
Nader was a liar, pure and simple. And determinedly anti-GM. Nader
never drove any vehicle and he usually stiffed the cab drivers by giving them an address to write to to claim their fare – he never carried money. Nader was/is a complete jerk, thru and thru.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

#29 Van says,

The interesting thing in this article is the idea of selling 60,000 Volts in 2011 vice the 10,000 other stories have suggested. Wish we could pin that down.

————–
As I understand it:
10,000 in 2010
60,000 in 2011

(Quote)
Skip Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

#34 the train moves 1 ton of freight 423 miles on one gallon of fuel. To get this you need to figure a 110 car train with each car carrying xxx tons divided by the amount of fuel that the train uses in one mile.

(Quote)
stas peterson Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

#38
Nader is a certified Killer. He and his ignorant pall, mandated by law that the US put overpowered inflators in its first airbags.

Practicing Engineering without a license, he figured Peopel won’t buckle up, so overpowered Airbags would make seat-belts unnecessary.

The SAE and all the engineering societies testified that this was stupid, and would kill people,siting too close such as little ladies and kids. Nader wouldn’t listen. But Nader was convinced of his righteousness; and insisted on his idea.

The car companies put regular level propellants into its offerings around the World, and put the overpowered inflators in American cars, per Nader’s hubris inspired mandate.

Predictably the first year, there were several hundred little old ladies and young children who were sitting too close to the overpowered airbags, and were in fact killed by the airbags.

NHTSA changed the regulation to the level of inflators that the engineering societies had wanted all along. And were in fact being used all around the world. Predictably, the deaths pretty much stopped due to airbag inflation.

But the Tort bar never sued the pants off Ralph and his millions in Public Citizen. One Shark to another, they gave him a pass or were intimidated by the Public Citizen legal staff, take your pick.

On net, Ralph killed over 200 people with his arrogance of doing Engineering without a License. Open and Shut case.

(Quote)
frank Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

#16 Basic electrical rules says you cannot ’stuff’ that much current (because the voltage) into a typical battery that fast. The chemical reaction would cause one of those explosions everyone is so worried about. Also you couldn’t afford the wire and insulators to handle 2000 volts. Think about it like this electricity is like water. Voltage is like Pressure and Current is like water flow. To move that much current(water flow) at high voltage(pressure) you need BIG wires to do more work(Power) in a shorter time. If the work(power) is slowly sent to the tank(battery) the tank can fill slowly without a problem.

That is what the first semester electrical engineers spend all of their time learning. It is called Ohm’s law. current=voltage/resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm’s_law

(Quote)
Aspherical Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

#33 statik

“I still waiting for my order on one of these…I put $42.50 of hard earned money down:”

http://shl.stanford.edu/Bucky/dymaxion/flyingcar.jpg

Hmmm… I got you beat with $50.00. You will just have to wait second in line…

(awesome car)

(Quote)
Silv Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

#42
My 2000V shot was just hypothetical – the reasoning behind this was that if 220V can charge it twice as fast as 110V, that means your supply is the limiting factor. Then, if you increase the voltage there will be a limit after which you will not be limited by your input voltage but rather by the battery’s intrinsic impedance. My question is this – what is that voltage? Is it 220V? Or maybe 380V?
I guess it all depends on the battery and we know almost nothing about it yet. I’m still surprised by the low impedance of the Altair-Nano batteries!

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Any GM dealers that are slated to get the first batch of Volts on this website?

If so, what is your level of activity with GM? Anything that you can share.

(Quote)
THOM Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

GM learned alot! Went from 80mi/charge in the sixties to struggling to get 40 miles/charge in 2008.

Thats 45 yrs of progress (too bad its backward)

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

#41 stas peterson
It sounds like you are saying, in an extremist way, that Nadar was extreme. Pot, meet kettle.

(Quote)
Volt T's Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

#47
LOL awesome

(Quote)
anthony Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

That funny I have a corvair but not a electric one and I will have a volt go figure…

(Quote)
JB Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Amazing how much the EV-1’s front end looks just like my old Saturn SL.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

#18 JonP

Statik,
How about the markets. Should i start hording Gas in 50gal drums, and break out the M5’s, Body armor, and Night vision gogles?
————————-

It amazes me that you have M5s, body armor and night vision goggles, but sure…why not? Hehe.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

#29 van
—The interesting thing in this article is the idea of selling 60,000 Volts in 2011 vice the 10,000 other stories have suggested. Wish we could pin that down.
#39 Rashiid Amul
—As I understand it:10,000 in 2010, 60,000 in 2011
————————————————————-

It is established, for sure:

2011 – 10,000
2012 – 60,000

We have a direct quote out of Lutz’s mouth, and confirmed by marketing and communication:

“They (GM) are expecting to build and sell 10,000 (Chevy Volts) in 2011 and 60,000 in 2012.”

I was able to confirm and clarify this statement with Dee Allen who was also in attendance and is GM director of marketing communications.

Dee told me “Bob said the first 12 months of production (beginning in 2010) would be around 10k, but in second year 60k would be more like it.”

Here is the link:

http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/19/lutz-gm-to-build-10000-volts-in-first-year-and-60000-in-second-year/

We also have confirmation of capacity of one line at the Hamm plant of 60,000 units/year. There is only 26 months left until 2011…and there is absolutely nothing doing on the actual Volt production in any form, in any location, whether it be the line, the machinery, the battery, etc. I don’t see the line being up and running in the next 14 months.

Honesty I don’t see a full production line running at all in 2010, much less early 2011…and just the nature of the quote, ‘10K in 2011′ that sounds like GM doesn’t think it will be running until summer 2011 either…unless I am missing something?

Capacity 5,000/mth…10,000 out in 2011? But production in November 2010? These would seem to contradict themselves.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

If they don’t get started building the line, they won’t make the 10,000 to sell. They must have a schedule for manufacturing based on making X-number to have ready to ship to the selected dealers by November 2010. If they made all 10,000 available in November 2010 they would all sell out before the first of December and GM could get started making the next 100,000 to be delivered through-out 2011. I suspect their 2010 production will amount to only a few hundred with the remaining 9,500 (or so) made and delivered between November 2010 and August 2011. They will only have to make less than 1,000 per month starting with start of production in or around June 2010. That’s not many cars to make per day (33-34). Somewhere in there they have to ramp up production.

(Quote)
Gary Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

46 Thom: GM learned alot! Went from 80mi/charge in the sixties to struggling to get 40 miles/charge in 2008. Thats 45 yrs of progress (too bad its backward)

I can’t count how many people have put up comments like that. There is more to an electric car than the range. If GM wanted to make more all-electric range that wouldn’t be used by most people on a day-to-day basis anyway (which is a non-issue since the range-enabling gas engine will allow essentially unlimited range for long road trips), they could have stuffed it with more batteries, which would have lead to undesirable trade-offs such as an even higher price that people are already belly-aching over! I’m sure that the Volt will be a quantum leap in driving dynamics, smoothness, quiet ride, safety, and other appointments compared to the Electrovair.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

I don’t know if this is of interest to many people looking at a electric car purchase, but it is GM related:

Camaroz28.com just got ahold of the new Camaro ordering book and ‘released’ it online:

http://www.camaroz28.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1400

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

#44

Don’t see anyone else coming to the rescue, so …

It’s not the voltage that’s important, it’s the amperage. 220 volts allows smaller wires to be used to carry the current. 15 amps at 220 volts = 30 amps at 110 volts. The issue is, what kind of current is a homeowner likely to have access to?

The charger on the car has to be able to take either voltage and change it to 300VDC for the battery (using a figure I’ve seen quoted here, but actual pack voltage could be off by ~15%). If you could somehow direct 2000V to the Volt’s charge port, with no protection device you’d probably just burn up the charger.

That’s not to say that a “quick charge” scenario based on some kind of mammoth external charger isn’t feasible, but regardless of the current, it’s DC Voltage would have to match that of the battery.

As to limiting the amount of current reaching the Li Ion battery (#42), don’t forget that this is a pack composed of many cells. If a pack is engineered to allow it, these cells could be charged in parallel; at whatever the safe amperage for a cell x #of cells might be.

NOTE: A special connector direct to the battery for an external charger, and internal wiriing for parallel charging of battery pack cells are not, I believe, design targets for the first gen Volt.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

#53 N RIley

If they don’t get started building the line, they won’t make the 10,000 to sell. They must have a schedule for manufacturing based on making X-number to have ready to ship to the selected dealers by November 2010. If they made all 10,000 available in November 2010 they would all sell out before the first of December and GM could get started making the next 100,000 to be delivered through-out 2011. I suspect their 2010 production will amount to only a few hundred with the remaining 9,500 (or so) made and delivered between November 2010 and August 2011. They will only have to make less than 1,000 per month starting with start of production in or around June 2010. That’s not many cars to make per day (33-34). Somewhere in there they have to ramp up production.

—————————————

I’ve said this before, but you have to look at the curve for the new flex rwd line Camaro. Yes, they have been ‘producing’ them, on a ‘line’ in Oshawa for several months now…but only on a mock, partial/test line. Stuff is still not actually permanently in place.

From the time the first ‘production’ Camaro vehicle fell off the test line, until they start pumping them out at capacity on the full line, it will probably be 6-8 months.

It is going to be the exact same way for the Volt. Workers don’t come in one day and they press a big green button and Volts start shooting out the end of the plant. If anything, the Volt line will be slower.

(Quote)
Jake Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

How about when you forget to put in your email and the site tells you so, you can go back and enter it without losing your entire post? That just happened to me because I’m on a public computer. Not so thrilled that it cleared all fields so they were empty when I hit the “back” button.

In brief:

1. Consider cycle life when contemplating the range of the Volt vs. previous electric cars. GM must make sure the battery pack lasts for 10 years/100,000 miles. Therefore they are using very conservative charge/discharge cutoffs to maximize cycle life. Maybe they can use more of the pack’s total capacity for Gen 2, when they have a better idea of the longevity of the packs.

2. A123 chemistry is very accepting of FAST charge rates (4C or 15 minute charge times are easily doable for their 26650 power tool cell). I would hope that if A123 does not end up in the Volt, the LG Chem pack would be similarly robust. Therefore, I bet you could safely charge the Volt’s pack in an hour or two, but as stated above the issue is where do you get all that power?

Let me repeat: I believe that battery chemistry is NOT the limiting factor for charge time with the Volt. Rather, it is the charging equipment/infrastructure that is the weak link. Although a low charge rate does put less wear and tear on the pack if you’re going for maximum longevity, as GM presumably is.

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Lyle Lyle Lyle, you now seem like nothing more than a GM surrogate spewing the same spin they’ve been spewing for years, which is very loose with the facts. Again I don’t blame you… if GM was flying me around and wining and dining me, and the only way to have continued access to information from GM is to stay on their good side and never ever criticize them, maybe I’d do the same. This site now seems to be the equiv of what FOX news is the the Bush administration

And trying to compare the EV-1 wait list to your “interest” list is like comparing apples to oranges…..

The EV-1 wait list was a REAL wait list, folks who were only able to get on it after jumping through hoops and in person application forms to fill out… not simply providing their email address online to an unofficial non-GM fan site who mislabels an “interest” list as a “wait list”.

On top of that the EV-1 was never really marketed (there were a couple of stealth TV ads) and of course was only marketed in parts of California, unlike the Volt which is marketed not only nation wide but world wide. Using that type of metric shouldn’t there be 5,000 times 50 states or 250,000 on the Volt’s “wait/interest” list just to be comparable?

By the way, GM never even admitted there was a wait list for the EV-1, and ex-GM employees (called “specialists”, like Chelsea Sexton) who helped get folks on it had a non-disclosure agreement couldn’t talk about it until 2005 when a GM exec slipped and did refer to a wait list which effectively removed the gag order. In addition to the 5,000 that were able to get on the official wait list, many more weren’t able to that did want one.

Keep in mind that of the around 1,400 EV-1’s that GM built, only 800 were ever able to be leased by the public (there rest were part of fleets, etc)…. and everyone of them was leased. GM only built what they needed to build in order to satisfy California’s ZEV mandate. Actually they were supposed to make some more EV-1
s in 2000 according to their Memorandum of Agreement with CARB (California Air Resource Board) but they had permanently shutdown the assembly line the year before. No surprise they abandoned the EV1 one month before GM bought the Hummer brand.

As for the GM claim that they spent $1B(illion) on the EV1 “to develop, market, and support the EV1″…. but an article in “Automotive News” in 1998 put the figure at $350 millon for EV1 development. People out side of GM estimate that GM spent up to $600 million on its multi-year lobbying and public relations campaigns to kill the ZEV mandate. Yea, add it up and it comes to $1B.

The irony of Lyle’s post above supposedly giving GM’s EV history fails to mention a great GM triumph… in 1999 they created a prototype (not just a concept) which using GM’s currently marketing lingo was a “Range Extended EV” (then they called it by the technical name, a plug-in series hybrid). Essentially a EV1 but stretched to be a 4/5 seater as well as to make room for the range extender (generator) which was a turbine engine (we won’t mention how this prototype had the same design as Volvo’s ECC prototype from 1993). Now here is where we can’t blame GM or Volvo… the problem was that because “range extended” vehicles are not “zero emissions” they didn’t qualify under the ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicle) mandate.

I know others have seen this before, but I highly recommend Sherry Boschert’s 2006 book “Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America”. It’s a nice history plug-in’s, debunks the hydrogen hoax, and lots of other information. Unlike the documentary “Who Killed the Electric Car?” the book is forward looking, does not only give GM’s history but all the major automakers history.

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Oops

When charging the pack’s cells in parallel, the voltage would have to be much lower, to match that of an individual cell. The pack’s ~300VDC rating is based on these cells wired up in series.

SO, if the conductors get smaller as voltage rises for a given power, that means that the connectors for parallel charging would be pretty awesomely big (and dangerous).

Many here have speculated about a system for automatically connecting to power whenever you drive up in your garage, I expect some variation of this could be used at a “quick charge” station: you’d drive up, a pair of small doors in the concrete would open, and two rather impressive pieces of metal would rise up to engage two sockets on the car (widely separated for greater safety) before the low-voltage / awesome amperate current was applied.

Information concerning such things as non-linear charging characteristics of various types and internal impedance of batteries would have to be ‘read’ to insure that damage isn’t done (and so that the appropriate account can be debited), so add in some kind of id chipping.

I’ll not hold my breath for the car / station that achieves of 5 – 10 minute full charge.

(Quote)
fishmahn Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

#’s 44, 56, et al:
I know they are using new LI-Ion technologies that we don’t have many details on, but if we were to do the charging math using known Li-Ion specs (i.e., from my Toshiba laptop), this will give us a ballpark for charging rate. (I’m also ‘thinking out loud’ so someone please correct me if I go way off base) We can adjust the math for known improvements on the new cells to get a more accurate number

Each cell is about 2.4Ah (6 cell, 10.8v, 4700mah and LI cells are 3.6v ea) The new cells are definitely improved, I’ll not allow for that until later. That means 8.64Wh per cell. To get 16kWh you need nearly 2000 cells (1851). For a 200v system, the cells are arranged into serial banks of 55 or 56 cells (I’ll use 55), and there are 33.64 banks (I’ll use 34 – making 1870 cells total). That gives 16.15kWh. Each bank can be charged at I think 1A optimally (if I remember the LI safe charge limit correctly), so that means 34A @ 200V. – or, a bit more than double the current 220 line charge rate.

If the new cells are more robust – say they hold twice the capacity and can take twice the charge rate safely, then there are half as many banks, and at twice the charge rate per bank the net result is the same…

The point of this is: A fast charge station would need at least 30A of capacity to hit the Battery’s limit of charge – and a full charge would still take at least 60 minutes – and that’s if the cells are more robust and can handle more than the guesstimated charge rate.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

#52 Statik – “Honesty I don’t see a full production line running at all in 2010, much less early 2011″

I wouldn’t pay much attention to those quotes. Events have moved very quickly.

All those production guesses were made based on the expectation that GM was going to lose money on every car it sold. With the rebates creating a $7500 cushion that financial concern is gone. Based on Kruse saying, in an interview surely cleared by GM’s PR Department, that “You will see significant and substantial volumes in the first and subsequent years”, I’d guess the number in 2011 will be a whole lot closer to 60,000 than to 10,000. Just run the numbers: GM can price this car at $44K, which should be sufficient to cover its costs, and still sell at an effective price of $37.5K. There should be a lot of demand at that price point.

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:02 pm

I really hate it when Lyle brings up the EV-1………

We almost get all the conspiracy people and those that watched “the movie” settled down, and with one post, it starts all over again!!!

And as far as the plant to produce the Volt:

Since the Ham plant is already in existance, how long should it take to convert it over to a new production line? I should think that GM has a bit more experience in this than we do, so if they say they will have cars off the line for testing in early 2010, that still gives them 16-17 months to get the plant up and running. That sounds doable to me…..

I guess we will know for sure on Nov 1, 2010!!!

(Quote)
fishmahn Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Gah, I messed up – it’s 300V, not 200V, so a bank is 81 cells, and there are 22 banks. the rest of the math is about the same however because the differences cancel themselves out.

(thanks Jackson)

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

#13 (Grizzley)…

Yes, it was expensive to make the EV1, it cost GM about $44,000 per EV1 to make. The Volt would cost at least that much to build if only 1,400 spread across several years were being made. Just like the 50 or so Volt’s that GM will be building over the coming year. It’s not until you “mass produce” them does the economy of scale come in. But remember, GM did not want to build the EV1, they (and the other automakers) were forced to by CARB’s ZEV mandate to build and put on the road so many zero emission vehicles per year. From the auto maker’s perspective the problem with a pure BEV is that it did not have enough “planned obsolescence”… a typical dealership for example makes more money on parts and service than it does on sales.

And GM never offered the EV1 “for sale”, only lease, and even then it was an expensive lease and required you to jump through hoops. Demand far outstripped supply, funny how GM spins that.

As for “range anxiety”, it was NOT an issue to those leasing it, nor for Toyota’s Rav4-EV which some lucky few were actually able to buy them and are still driving them today. With 120 mile range per charge, and the fact that you recharge every night, folks may have more anxiety in the Volt if you exceed it’s “40 mile” (and I believe it’s now been said that’s city driving range, highway is less?) range and you forgot to stop by a gas station and have an empty tank. I know I sometimes have range anxiety with my current car when I need to go somewhere and I forgot I needed to get gas first so didn’t factor that time in (I have 2 or 3 times in my life actually run out of gas while driving).

If you call the 800 plus the 5,000 on the official GM wait list “die hard EV enthusiasts” just in the Southern CA area, imagine how many regular EV enthusiasts that may have leased or bought an EV1?

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

DonC
statik

I think you’ve both touched on what is likely the truth; first that it will take time to bring a line up to speed (statik), and that the initially-announced 10,000 volume gives them great cover while they do this — also, they’ll be looking at the first 10K to see how (or even if) they can ramp up further.

Once the line is nailed down, and the mass-production spec is set; I think you can forget 60K (DonC); they’ll run the line around the clock as soon as the capability allows … the race for the 250K EVs will be on …

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

#59 Jeff M

Your comment could have left off the first paragraph and been much better by doing so. Good information from the second paragraph down and thanks for it.

Lyle does an outstanding job with this site. Sometimes we expect a new revealing article every day and he can’t always provide one. Your opinion on this matter is just as important as mine, but in this case I think you are wrong in everything you said in paragraph one.

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

I am not on the wait list for a Volt yet because I know I will not be able to afford one by 2010. We are trying to make our family car last another 3 or 4 years (fingers crossed). If I need a new car before I can afford to get a 2012 or 2013 year model Volt what would be the best option:

1. Buy a cheaper GM car and not get a Volt until 2015, or
2. Buy a cheap used car for $5,000 and run it into the ground over 2 years till I can afford a Volt?

Lyle, can you write an article comparing the evolution of GMs flex-fuel vehicles (ties in with the Volt since the genset is flex-fuel capable) with the other auto makers?

I seem to remember that GM was the only car maker producing flex-fuel vehicles for the longest time. Now Ford and others are saying they were making them too. Which is the truth?

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

I also want to be clear that I’m a full supporter of the Volt program, and I hope GM is successful and makes and sells tons of them. I don’t hold any grudges against GM, I fully understand the business reasons why GM and the other automakers lobbied to gut the ZEV mandate and kill their own EV programs. I just don’t like revisionist history writing. Lyle and GM should just not comment on the EV1, and leave it in the past. It’s when the lies and spin come out that it should not be left unanswered.

(Quote)
JonP. Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

#45 Jeff

“Any GM dealers that are slated to get the first batch of Volts on this website?

If so, what is your level of activity with GM? Anything that you can share.”

On very good authority….. (i don’t own a Chevy dealer, but my brother is a GM (general manager))
There has been communication between the dealers and GM. Mostly upstream, the dealers are getting guys asking about the Volt, and wanting to put deposits down. Gm’s standpoint is basically, don’t take deposits, there is no waitlist, were not sure of exact initial distribution numbers or locations, it will be limited, we don’t know a price or range, but hang in there. When you finally do get the Volt it’s gonna be a winner for us!

This is not BS, take it for what it’s worth, but like i said my brother is a GM at my local Chevy dealership, and believe me people are asking about the Volt.

I remember a guy from a Chevy dealership wanting to use Lyle’s diagram of how the powertrain worked a week ago. GM is not telling the dealers anything except that it will be built!

======================================================

#51 & 57 Statik,

“It amazes me that you have M5s, body armor and night vision goggles, but sure…why not? Hehe.”

Well actually i’d have to buy the nightvision gogles off ebay. What can i say even in a heavy Blue state (NJ) we still have weapons, only difference is ours are registered. Thanks to G.W. and his gun nut buddies i even bought my M5 (automatic weapon) leagally. Used my $600 stimulus check, figured why not it’s free money. (damn that sounds like a uneducated, hillbilly talking!) Just didn’t need the stimulus check so………
———————————————————————————
Statik #55

“Camaroz28.com just got ahold of the new Camaro ordering book and ‘released’ it online:”

Checked it out, looks alot like the concept Volt to me from that front shot.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

But, Jeff M, the EV1 is part of the history of GM and the Volt. Much of the Volt’s design is based on work GM was doing on Version 2 of the EV1. To say that we should forget it is not exactly right. Reduce the amount of space given to it may be much better. We all have learned a lot from the discussion of the EV1. But, we should keep it in context.

(Quote)
jefro Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:25 pm

“, pulled the plug and crushed them.”

JERKS!!!

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

#62 DonC

#52 Statik – “Honesty I don’t see a full production line running at all in 2010, much less early 2011″

I wouldn’t pay much attention to those quotes. Events have moved very quickly.

All those production guesses were made based on the expectation that GM was going to lose money on every car it sold. With the rebates creating a $7500 cushion that financial concern is gone. Based on Kruse saying, in an interview surely cleared by GM’s PR Department, that “You will see significant and substantial volumes in the first and subsequent years”, I’d guess the number in 2011 will be a whole lot closer to 60,000 than to 10,000. Just run the numbers: GM can price this car at $44K, which should be sufficient to cover its costs, and still sell at an effective price of $37.5K. There should be a lot of demand at that price point.
—————————-

Don, I realize profitability is in the mix now…and I don’t discount its effect, but I am talking about physical factors that must be considered into building it. It makes alot of sense that GM should be running and gunning to built this thing, they just aren’t.

We know the plant scheduled to be tooled (Hamm), we know it has 3 lines, one of which to be converted to the Volt and we have GM on record saying capacity is about 60,000.

It is October 2008. That is the problem. Short of Hitler’s VW, no plant has gone from nothing to full production in less than 24 months. GM doesn’t even have one working prototype. No battery contract, (not even a contracter with a plant to built it).

This is a completely new platform, with unproven technology on top of the fact they have no time. Right now in Hamm, there is not one piece of equipment present for the Volt, it is just a big junk pile. As far as I can tell there is not even one third party production contract out there. GM doesn’t even have one working protype. Tomorrow GM could just say they weren’t building it anymore and they wouldn’t have to stop one thing or pay out a nickel more.

Is it humanly possible that GM could pull off this ‘uber production line’? I give you a maybe.

The better question is, ‘has GM given even the slightest indication they are in any hurry at all to produce this thing even by their own deadline?’ The answer is no. In my experience, seeing is being.

(Quote)
Silv Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

#’s 44, 56, et al (again)

Sorry I didn’t express clearly what was in my mind.
Basically, a simple battery model is a voltage source in series with a resistor. The resistor models any IR losses when charging or discharging the battery, and it also limits the maximum output voltage when drawing a certain amount of current from the battery. At the 1st order, there is no difference between charge and discharge, the battery model is the same.
So my question is simply this – if you can discharge the battery in 40 minutes without blowing it (or melting it), then it should be possible to do the same with the charge. And yes, if you drive 60mph, that means your battery is depleted in 40′. So why aren’t we able to charge the battery in 40′? Well, obiously that would require a power of 8kwh/0.66h = 12kW of power, way higher than most households can offer. But why can’t a gas station provide such a power? Is the AC to DC conversion in the charger the main issue? (The charger is not involved when you discharge the battery so it might limit your charge time thus introducing asymmetry between charge and discharge times).
Can’t we design a charger that is more powerful? After all, Altair-Nano claims their batteries will be charged in 5-10′. That requires some strong power at the gas station and a very strong charger as well.
Or maybe the gas station can directly provide a DC current thus simply bypassing the Volt’s charger – that way we’ve re-established the symmetry between charge/discharge times.

Too many questions, too ahead of time. I think these issues will be solved in the next 2-3 years and we will be able to charge the volt at a gas station/mall in 30′ or less.

(Quote)
Arch Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Another GM hybrid that not many people know about.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/09/priustoric—-g.html

Take Care
Arch

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

#27 on the range of EV1 vs. Volt…

Several reasons:

1. the Volt only has an effective battery capacity of 8kwh (out of a raw capacity of 16kwh) vs. the EV1’s 26.4kwh (in the Gen 2 with the Cobasys NiMH). Part of the reason the Volt is lugging around twice the battery weight than it uses is because of the Lithium chemistry being used doesn’t have the expected deep cycle life to meet the 10 year or 150,000 mile lifetime GM wants, so some or all of the gain of the higher energy/power density of the Lithium chemistry over NiMH is lost.

2. the Volt is a 4-seater while the EV1 was only sat 2. I don’t have the curb weight of the EV1 but being only a 2-seater I imagine it was lighter than the Volt will be.

3. the EV1 had a drag coefficient of only 0.19… the Volt I don’t recall. Of course some complain that the profile that gave the EV1 that low CD was “ugly” so I think GM traded it off a little to get a more conventional look.

I also don’t believe GM could have used the Cobasys NiMH chemistry in the Volt because the patent is currently owned by Chevron (oil company) because GM sold it to Texaco (oil company) just before Chevron acquired them.

What I am confused about is after reading Lyle’s post about the EnerDel Lithium chemistry is why GM isn’t using that one… it supposedly can use 90%+ of it’s raw capacity and still still have a long cycle life to meet the lifetime requirements. The same size pack (16kwh) could thus give 80% more range (72 miles/charge). I have not done any research myself, it could just be that EnerDel wasn’t ready in time to compete, and may still not be ready, and maybe they are still vaporware?

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

I don’t live in CA so I had never heard of the EV-1 until about 4 years ago or so. That sparked my curiosity and I started looking into electric vehicles. I soon became a convert to the importance of electric vehicles.

To say we should forget what happened with the EV-1 is the wrong message. Learning from past mistakes makes America the greatest country in the world. GM should get credit for what good it has done in switching its line over to flex-fuels and with millions of those on the road it has enabled domestic supplies of E85 ethanol. Moving forward, of course, we need cellulosic ethanol (not made from edible parts of the plant). From what I can tell pilot plants are in the works now.

Flex-fuel is step one. Step two is plug-in hybrids like the E-REV in the Volt. The ultimate goal has to be pure electric vehicles. The efficiency of EV is far greater than any other option. And EV cars will be fast, great looking and cheaper to run.

With a majority of the nations vehicles capable of using domestic E85 or electric only modes of propulsion we will be able to end foreign oil imports. With increased exploration and new technology to locate oil underground before drilling American oil companies will be able to supply our remaining needs for oil.

(Quote)
Frank B Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Just a general comment for all those who are doing charging calculations and the such. The voltage in America, since about 1935 or so is NOT 110 or 115 volts or 220 or 230 volts. The voltage is 120 volts and 240 volts.

So all of you calculators out there, you’ll all have to make adjustments. Commercial voltages have the same misunderstandings from by gone times. The voltage is 480, not 440 or 460v, period.

I know a lot of you are going to be saying, wait a minute, it says right here on my toaster, 110 volts, or 115 volts. Those numbers shown are the Design Voltage of that piece of equipment, not the supply voltage from the utility. The Design Voltage differs so they can sell the item in different parts of the world. Most equipment will operate satisfactory plus or minus 10% of the design voltage. But our voltage is 120/240 for most residences.

There are other voltage combinations out there, but they are three phase voltages, but that’s another story. The three phase voltages are; 277/480v, 240/480v, and 120/208v.

Again the normal household voltage in the United Staes is 120/240.

(Quote)
Van Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Statik @ 52

Thanks, exactly what I thought I recalled. That I think, puts Toyota’s full production of the PHEV in 2011 one year ahead.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

#79 van

Statik @ 52

Thanks, exactly what I thought I recalled. That I think, puts Toyota’s full production of the PHEV in 2011 one year ahead.
————————————–

I really don’t know anything (or the anyone for that matter) about Toyota’s Plug-In plans, the only thing we know for sure is next gen bows at the autoshow in January and the Plug-In will be a limited availability option in 2010.

I suspect they will have the same battery limitations on production as other would have, so I don’t expect to see monsterous numbers in 2011. Given the scale of their pack, we could theoretically extrapolate max production…I would put it in the 25-50K range.

I’m not really going to give an opinion or go out on a limb at all on it right now, you’d be best not to plan on anything until then. Toyota could announce just about anything, go either way…high or low.

The greatest autoshow ever…104 days and counting…January 11th, 2009.

Officially:
Jan 11-13, 2008: Press days
January 14th & 15th, 2008: Industry Preview days
January 16th: Official Black-Tie Charity Gala Preview evening
Jan 17-25: Public

Expect most of the ‘big showings’ on the Saturday, Jan. 17th. I’m sure ‘reveal’ information will be readily available as we get closer.

(Quote)
Joe OBrien Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

Regardless of the craftily devised BS line GM uses for killing the EV1, they only killed it because they did not want to be forced to make it. And once the mandate died (Thanks Bush) they no longer were forced to make it, and made sure it looked like they were losing money, then they killed the program. Gas was $1.30 a gallon, and they pushed the Hummer H2 (Tahoe) more than anything.

Their greed combined with their ties with big oil killed the EV’s. Which years later is exactly what is slowly strangling the life from this once great company.

I’m willing to give them another chance, but don’t believe for one minute it was because of diminished demand they killed EV’s. They only kept a list of 5,000 for fulff because sites like this weren’t around back then to prove them wrong.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

#81 Joe Obrien,

I understand what you are saying.

This is why Lyle created this site. To show and push GM into making this car. It is very important to all of us humans. The EV-1 is gone but not forgotten. The Volt is coming and I believe it will be here to stay. I don’t see GM or anyone else crushing EVs again.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

#24 Bob:

I think that “LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!” was ancient graffiti found daubed on the walls of a long abandoned GM plant in Hamtramck, Michigan. Possibly paced there by a long vanished ancient blogger who went by “Tagamet”.

#52 & #57 statik & #52 N Riley:

I swear that this is like watching the last act of a Greek tragedy, or maybe Hamlet. What can they be thinking? If Chevy dealers don’t get something effective to sell against the new offerings from the usual suspects, the game will be over before the Volt ever gets to any meaningful level of production.

Do they think that they will just pick up the pieces out of Chapter 11, and that life will go on as before for the “executive” class? Or do they think that the new US culture of multi billion dollar bailouts for all will produce more bounty behind the $25 billion?

(Quote)
J Man Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

#2 Rudi

I have corvair in the driveway that you can vert to electric that I will sell you.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

#59 Jeff M:

I have been following GM-Volt.com for what seems like forever. I believe that Lyle has done an absolutely spectacular job of helping to keep hope alive, given what he has to work with.

And if you think that I am an apologist for GM, take a look at #83.

My hat is off to you Lyle. If GM survives, which I devoutly hope that it will, it will be in no small part to your tireless efforts.

(Quote)
Michael Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

#83 Noel Park – “Possibly paced there by a long vanished ancient blogger who went by ‘Tagamet’”.

Speaking of which, I was just thinking yesterday, “I haven’t seen any comments from Tagamet for quite awhile.” Tag, are you out there? Hope you are well.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

#86 Michael

#83 Noel Park – “Possibly paced there by a long vanished ancient blogger who went by ‘Tagamet’”.

Speaking of which, I was just thinking yesterday, “I haven’t seen any comments from Tagamet for quite awhile.” Tag, are you out there? Hope you are well.
——————————————–

I’m afraid he won’t be back, he finally yielded to me on all points and adopted my ‘glass half empty’ mantra and has since moved to a isolated location with no internet or TV.

(Somewhere his ears just burst into flames…that should get him back)

(Quote)
noel park Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

#86 Michael & #87 statik:

Well I am hoping that he went on vacation once Rashiid got back to make sure that things didn’t go completely out of control. I dunno though, he leaves for a week and people are wanting to know WTF LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! means. I mean, you can’t take you eye off the ball for a second in the fast paced world of the blogosphere!

(Quote)
dylan Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

i am SOOOOOOOOOOO!! glad they crushed those hidious things now i dont have to look at them on the road i dont care if it was electric or not that thing was the ulgyest thing i’ve ever seen.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Jeff M #65

“And GM never offered the EV1 “for sale”, only lease, and even then it was an expensive lease and required you to jump through hoops. Demand far outstripped supply, funny how GM spins that.”

*** *** ***

All automakers leased their vehicles, and they were all crushed, except for a few that were sold.

“If you call the 800 plus the 5,000 on the official GM wait list “die hard EV enthusiasts” just in the Southern CA area, imagine how many regular EV enthusiasts that may have leased or bought an EV1?”

*** *** ***

CA probably has more EV enthusiasts than any other state for obvious reasons. If GM were the only one at fault then it’s competitors certainly lost an opportunity by discontinuing their EV efforts as soon as the mandate was repealed. The reality is that at the time gasoline was inexpensive and decisions like this are made all the time by for-profit companies.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

CS Guy # 77

“GM should get credit for what good it has done in switching its line over to flex-fuels and with millions of those on the road it has enabled domestic supplies of E85 ethanol”

*** *** ***

There is still so much more to do. GM could do a much better job of proliferating flex-fuel through its product lineup. Currently most of the flex fuel capable vehicles are behemoths like the Aztek and larger SUVs. The only reasonably sized vehicle is the Impala and it’s still only available in certain markets. From this point on GM needs to develop every new engine as flex capable and rework several 4’s and 6’s in their lineup for flex capability and really push the envelope on this “chicken or the egg” problem.

(Quote)
RB Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

#53 N. Riley said “They must have a schedule for manufacturing based on making X-number to have ready to ship to the selected dealers by November 2010.”
=========================================

I believe that in the USA Today article a few weeks back a GM spokesman was quoted as saying that “production would begin in November 2010″. He did not give an initial rate or volume. He definitely did not say that dealers would have cars to sell by November 2010.

As the Volt is a variant of the Cruze, I keep wondering if the initial Volts are going to be cars coming off a Cruze production line, and then modified by threee little old ladies with screwdrivers “add A, subtract B”

(Quote)
Lyle Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

I “spoke” to Tag via email – he is OK and sends his regards, just dealing with some life challenges right now..he’ll be back.

Regardless of the intense economic events we are witnessing and living through, and regardless of the possibility of GM bankruptcy, this site shall continue, strong and undaunted. I believe the Chevy Volt will survive through it all. Its that important for us all and GM-Volt.com will be here to continue to witness, document, experience, and spread the word about it.

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

The most exciting chapter in electric car history is being written, right now. Some of it is being written here.

(Quote)
LyleL Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

#31 Solo said:

“The EV1 never NEVER had a 120 mile range. A professional driver on a cool day at an oval track driving a constant speed might be able to get 120 miles out of the second generation EV-1. The range was greatly exagerated to make the car look better than it was.”

Please post a link supporting your statement.

This Idaho National Laboratory government site http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf shows the gen-2 EV1 with NiMH had excellent range. At a constant 60 MPH the EV1 could go 160.6 miles. At a constant 45 MPH the EV1 could go 220.7 miles. Here it comes… doing a driving cycle it could do 140 miles.

Here’s a first person account of the gen-2 NiMH EV1. Kris Trexler test drives the Gen 2 EV1 with NiMH batteries
http://www.ev1.pair.com/charge_across_america/charge_html/nimh_test2.html

GM certainly doesn’t exaggerate it, they keep quoting the lead-acid battery range. It’s like they have Alzheimer’s short term memory loss on the EV1 range topic.

And for fun, here’s the EV1 chirping its tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhLhvW9b14

Jeff M, thanks for the very good posts. Your question about the curb weight of the EV1 is answered in the specifications pdf above.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

#91 Correction

That should read Avalanche rather than Aztek. Why on earth did I confuse the “camping” Pontiac with the modular Chevy pickup?

(Quote)
Michael Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

#93 Lyle – Thanks for checking up on Tag. Bloggers come and go, but for those who stick around and listen to each other, there develops a sense of comradery.

Then, as Tag would say, LJGTVWOTR!

(Quote)
DonC Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

#73 Statik – “Short of Hitler’s VW, no plant has gone from nothing to full production in less than 24 months.”

This is certainly a very good point. Then again no one has brought out a new car with a new drive train in three years either.

Until I’m proven wrong I’m going to go with Kruse. He knows what he’s doing. I don’t work with hardware but in my business we generally have a good sense of how close we are. People outside the process can either get overly encouraged or overly discouraged. It’s difficult to explain but sometimes things look completely disorganized and you know it will fall into place quickly, and sometimes they think you’re there and you know it’s not that close.

Consequently I’m going to accept Kruse ’s comments at face value. He seems confident he can handle it. And actually he probably does. Hopefully …… LOL

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

#98 DonC

OK Don, we’ll agree to disagree on this one, hehe. Time will flush it out for us.

Side note: Mr. Kruze has only been “Executive Director of Global Vehicle Engineering Hybrids, Electric Vehicles and Batteries” for about 9 months. He used to be the ‘tuner’ guy for GM’s ‘performance oriented’ models at GM’s Performance division. I’m not sure he has any experience leading a team that is developing a line from scratch…I could be wrong though.

/just saying

(Quote)
nasaman Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

93 Lyle, 97 Michael……..
————————————————————————————————————————–
Lyle, I want to add my thanks for emailing Tagamet & letting us know he’s OK. He’s a great guy who I met at VoltNation & a real asset to this forum!

I also want to thank & commend you for this topic on the history of EV’s at GM & the timely Automotive News article! Fascinating!!!

(Quote)
JS1219 Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:29 pm

The Volt looks, hands down, better than the EV1.

And that 423 mile per ton of freight is the average with the locamotive. incremental difference is slightly less than that and if it is a very light load, the effeciencies are not near as good. It is much easier to keep low drag trains moving at constant speed than have cars & trucks with rubber tires staring and stoping all the time. Diesel trucks pulling 40 tons (80,000 lbs including the cab) only get an average of 6 miles per gallon which ends up being about 240 miles per ton per gal (closer to 132 if you count just the freight).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jDk-g02GNw

(Quote)
Bruce Lee Says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

I have been searching GM and Chevy web sites for the official PayPal account to make my deposit for my Volt. I cannot visit U.S. dealer and put $100 deposit. I must use PayPal and have Volt shipped to me. Please Help. Where is Chevy PayPal link ????

(Quote)
Shaft Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 12:26 am

OK, say I’m 11 years into my Volt (my last car lasted 13 years), and the battery is now giving me only 6 kwhrs and 30 miles AER.

Can I take it to GM and get the battery setpoints changed from 30%-80% to, say,10%-90%, and get back to 8 kwhrs?. At that point, who cares if the battery wears out faster? Maybe I can get another year or two out of it with higher AER.

Actually, GM could factory program a gradual increase in the SOC range over the life of the car to help meet warranty requirements.

Wonder if GM has considered something like that.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 1:26 am

Shaft # 103

“Actually, GM could factory program a gradual increase in the SOC range over the life of the car to help meet warranty requirements.

Wonder if GM has considered something like that.”

*** *** ***

Shaft,

That is the very reason for the extra 8 kw/h of battery redundancy. What the BMS will probably do is tap into that extra 8kw/h whenever it needs to to make sure that it can deliver 40 mi. AER in whatever driving cycle GM decides on, particularly at the end of life.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 4:50 am

Has anyone heard what the range will be on the highway in EV only mode? If it will be 40 miles in the city, I suspect it will be less on the highway. If true, I really do think they really over promised and will be under delivering. I do hope I am wrong.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 4:51 am

Lyle, #93.

Thanks for checking on Tag.

You are doing a great job on this site. Thank you very much.
I swear GM-Volt.com is turning into a religion for me. Not a day goes by that I don’t check it.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 4:58 am

Bruce Lee #102.

I have been searching GM and Chevy web sites for the official PayPal account to make my deposit for my Volt. I cannot visit U.S. dealer and put $100 deposit. I must use PayPal and have Volt shipped to me. Please Help. Where is Chevy PayPal link ????

———
Uh…ya. Uh…..good luck with that.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 5:08 am

Will Europeans pronounce “Volt” as “Woldt”?

=D~

(Quote)
fishmahn Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 5:34 am

#78 Frank B:
Actually the supply voltage is “about” 120v. It can fluctuate up or down and is allowed to go down to 110 without triggering a brownout condition. Rarely if ever will it go over 125. And 11A at 110V or 10A at 120V is the same amount of power. It doesn’t upset the calculations enough to be a problem. Technically, if I was to get out my meter, supply voltage would probably be about 121 or 122 right now (5:30AM CDT). Midday in the summer supply voltage could easily be down to 115 or less. Since the supply voltage is variable, all calculations must have some ’slush’ in them unless you only deal with watts. Batteries are the same way. LI cells are rated at “3.6v” but they actually put out anywhere from about 3.8 to 3.4 volts during discharge. (not looking at a discharge graph so I could be a little off. Once again, it’s ‘about’ that voltage.

PS: Just checked my household current: 122.9v. Still not worth changing calculations for.

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 5:56 am

Lyle, #93. Thanks.

I was a worried about Tag, and what had happened to him.
And yes, if GM does go chapter 11, this site will be more important than ever.

Be well
LJGTVWOTR

NPNS

(Quote)
RB Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 6:17 am

#93 Lyle — giving update on Tag, and comments about the future.
============================================

Glad to hear that Tag will be back; thanks.

Regarding GM, an unusual aspect of the current financial scenario is that the Treasury and Fed Reserve seem to be trying to avoid any big shocks, for national policy reasons. So that is good for GM at the moment, as it seems likely that GM will have adequate credit to stay in business for a considerable time into the future.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 8:50 am

#93 Lyle

I “spoke” to Tag via email – he is OK and sends his regards, just dealing with some life challenges right now..he’ll be back.

Regardless of the intense economic events we are witnessing and living through, and regardless of the possibility of GM bankruptcy, this site shall continue, strong and undaunted. I believe the Chevy Volt will survive through it all. Its that important for us all and GM-Volt.com will be here to continue to witness, document, experience, and spread the word about it.

———————————-

I like this post Lyle. I appreciate the fact you are considering the possibility of GM’s bankruptcy and are potentially looking past that event to keep our online family together if the worst does happen. Maybe a sister ‘EV site’ in the works? You have the base to certainly have the highest traffic ‘generic’ electric vehicle site on the net…maybe someday you could give up all that silly ‘brain fixin’ nonsense.

I am sorry to hear that Tag is experiencing some difficulties…I wish him the best.

(Quote)
jabroni Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 10:58 am

The EV1 conspiracy theories are in fact, reality. GM hated the EV1 and chose to crush them and wipe them off the face of earth rather than sell them to the enthusiasts. Hundreds of witnesses attest to this as well as people who worked for Saturn and were on the EV1 team (Chelsae Sexton).

The Internet was not nearly as ubiquitous in 1996 as it is today, which explains why GM-Volt has a 44K waiting list as opposed to the EV1’s 5K. I live in Ohio and had NO idea what the EV1 was until ex post facto.

(Quote)
Tom H Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 11:07 am

And why the Volt has only a 40 miles range but the EV1 had a 120 miles range ??? Please answer…
———————————————————————————

To get the long range, GM filled up the back seat of the EV-1 with batteries, which met their range goal, but drove the production cost of the car up to around $80,000.

The Volt is intended to be a family car. When you make it a four seater, and limit the cost to $30-40k, the biggest battery you can use will only go 40 miles.

Or, if you prefer the conspiracy theory, GM is purposely limiting the range of the VOLT because they want it to fail because they are hateful people.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 11:56 am

#94 Jackson:

I agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it’s an understatement. I would suggest just deleting “electric” and saying that “The most exciting chapter in car history is being written, right now.”

(Quote)
whynot Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

OK, there’s been a lot of talk about the EV-1 and why it ended, but let’s look back to production electric cars. I mean those of the early 1900’s

It’s interesting to see the reasoning for electric cars back then. Just look at the advertising (some examples http://detroit-electric.com/sites/detroit-electric.com/files/JFHaydenLetter.pdf). Why use gas, it’s so expensive (I remember seeing one referring to it being a “luxury” not for the common man)? Electricity is easier. Who’d drive more than 80 miles in a day anyway?

It’s amazing how similar it sounds to today’s consumer comments (and how different it is from the EV-1’s day).

(Quote)
Shawn Marshall Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

People, please help yourselves. Don’t sound dumb. There is no 110 Volts or 220 Volts. There is 120VAC and 240VAC. Get with it.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

#117

This is because so many devices have been labeled 110V and 220V simply to indicate that they can operate at that voltage in the even that attenuation from household wiring or a long extension cord drops them that low.

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
October 10th, 2008 at 5:25 am

Shawn, in New Zealand we run 230VAC as does Australia and parts of Europe. In the UK they run 240VAC, the Volt will have a modern switchphase power supply and cope with them all, just like your computer does.

NPNS

(Quote)
JAKE SANDERS Says:
October 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am

I have understand ( clear it to me if not ) that exists a kind of electrical battery that it be charged with solar energy through a solar panel mounted on roof of any house so we don’t need to expense money to pay to the electrical company. May be the GM project are considering a kind os battery too expensive and only rechargable via electrical service in house.
I think if GM wants to release its electrical car, they should to consider benefits for its customers in order to not depends more of petroleum, (gasoline, generation of electricity(electric company)).

(Quote)
TC1 Says:
December 7th, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Interesting your rewrite of history on the failure of the EV1, but here are the facts:

1. Advertising. They had the most underwhelming campaign that still gives me nightmares. They didn’t want people to buy the vehicles. They wanted people to be afraid of them.

2. Wait list. See above. Had people KNOWN about the vehicle, they would have sign up for it. Nobody knew that the car existed and beside that, the stipulations that were placed upon people to even get on the waiting list and to receive the vehicle were more difficult than obtaining a $5million dollar loan from the bank.

GM needs to face the fact that they were the ones who had the technology and decided to bury it and sell the battery technology – to an oil company.

The Volt, which will drag itself off the racks in 2010 will not do anything to help this bloated company which needs to be retooled from the top on down. Bring someone in with some sense who is not tied to the oil company and them, maybe you’ll have some change take place.

(Quote)
THOM Says:
January 8th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

Gm learned alot…..however they will be the last at the table with an electric car!

(Quote)
kelly Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Burns, a GM executive, said that if GM hadn’t dropped the EV1, we could have had the Volt ten years ago. Wagoner, CEO, still thinks EVs haven’t a financial impact.

It’s the “..are doomed to repeat it” part of history that makes the EV1 important. A bankrupt GM is still GM. They crush EVs – it’s what they do – it’s what they do best…

(Quote)

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts

Hacked e-mails reveal global-warming fraud? November 20, 2009
This is how open minded liberals operate. "And, perhaps most reprehensibly," Delingpole writes, "a long series of communications discussing how best... […]
BigCityCat
Is the Volt Engine Direct Injected? November 20, 2009
I recently read that the Cruze's engine will be DI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Cruze#Chevrolet_Cruze Obviously the Cruze's engine will... […]
omnimoeish
First Reports of the Chevy Volt's Charge-Sustaining (Generator) Mode Operation November 20, 2009
The first two journalists' reports of what it's like to drive the Chevy Volt while in generator mode operation have been published. 1) New York... […]
admin
Florida giving $5000 rebate to convert Prius to plug-in November 20, 2009
- Probably Hymotion - $10,400 standard price - $5000 state rebate - $1000 additional federal incentives - $4,400 final cost. Hurry because their... […]
Texas
New York Times CSM story November 20, 2009
Link to the New York Times story of November 19, 2009 about a test ride of the Volt in charge sustaining... […]
srschrier
New video: Volt drive in Detroit November 19, 2009
November 19, 2009 Detroit Free Press story with video featuring a Volt drive with Andrew Farah in... […]
srschrier
New Video: Volt Corrosion Testing November 18, 2009
From GM VoltAge, the Volt's corrosion... […]
srschrier

GM’s Electric History

123 Responses to “GM’s Electric History”

Leave a Reply

Recent Posts

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts