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Chevy Orlando: Will This Become an E-Flex Microvan?
GM revealed the Chevrolet Orlando MPV7 concept this week at the Paris Motor Show.
The car is built on the same global compact delta platform as the Chevy Volt and Cruze. GM notes this is an entry into a new segment for the brand, a small footprint 7-seater with “impressive interior space,” and an adaptable theater-style seating configuration that combines elements of a sport utility, family van, and wagon.
The show car demonstrates a 150 hp 2.0 L diesel engine.
It has been speculated this car will be built alongside the Volt at the same plant in Detroit-Hamtramck, and since it shares the same platform, would be ideally suited for an E-Flex drivetrain. Since we know GM has at least 2 other E-Flex models under development, this car seems an ideal opportunity considering the needs of families.
I asked GM spokesperson Nancy Libby if this car will be sold in North America, and she responded it was simply a demonstration show car and “at this point, we have nothing to announce regarding the production of a similar vehicle in the U.S. or anywhere else. ”
Recently the Wall Street Journal reported that GM pulled the Orlando from DHAM, although that remains unconfirmed.
GM sources told me the plant is currently building Cadillac DTS and Buick Lucernes and the ability to go to Volt is “subject to successful discussions with state and local governments.” These sources also report that “no other product has been announced for our plant.” But since capacity there is in the hundreds of thousands, and first year Volt volumes won’t be as high, perhaps the E-Flex Orlando will wind up being that other product.
Guess we’ll have to wait and see, but what do you think about this being an E-Flex microvan?
122 Responses to “Chevy Orlando: Will This Become an E-Flex Microvan?”
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
I think that’s a great idea. I actually like this concept alot. I doubt i’m first lol………
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Yea, I was first……I think GM needs to have a lot of options on the table and this one seems rather practical.
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Looks cool, the for E-Flex options the better
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
I rather buy this one over the volt if it is a plug in. I had concerns my hockey bag would be difficult to get in and out of the Volt in addition to even fitting in the trunk.
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I’m wondering what those blue panels are in the roof?
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I am tired of all the games being played. Just give us a car without all the crap. How many stories have we been told? How many times has the price been changed? How many times has the gas tank size been changed? What is the price now that government will pay for $7500 for your car? I am sick and tired of it ALL. JMHO GM has used the net for a VERY effective campaing for this car but I do not like the game being played.
Take Care
Arch
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I sure hope that GM brings some of these cars to the US. I currently own two Hondas, a CRV and Odyssey. Just by the looks of it, I would consider replacing my Odyssey with this vehicle. Especially interested if it’s EFlex.
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Too much car for the available battery packs. Maybe with the next generation of batteries.
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I’m not a fan of GM holding out for government incentives. Notice production tied to certain promise by localities… I understand they’re out for profit and the best deal, but this isn’t supposed to be socialism. If they can’t figure out how to beat the competition with a superior product, then game over.
Do you see ANY of the foreign manufacturers demanding such incentives? Watch out for Nissan, Toyota, and others that have electrified their product lines WITHOUT the strings.
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Make it an AWD EREV and I’m there!!
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
I’m guessing DonC (#7) is correct if they stick with 40 miles on a charge. But if they lower expectations and guarantee a lower number like 30 on a charge for example that could be a different story. If we think back to the Flextreme then we know they have thought this way before. They suggested around 34 miles on a charge for that one.
I would still like to see a conventional powered option like Europe will get but with a slightly higher boosted 1.4 than what will be in the Cruze. Maybe also that coupled with a six speed auto and the new mild hybrid system. Then offer a more aero body worked version for the E-Flex. Maybe it could still get high 30s. That would be very nice. Or a 2 mode plugin could be great as well.
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
#7 DonC said:
True, and the battery format would need to be reworked. No place for the T shape in this car.
GM concentrate… concentrate… on the Volt… on the Volt….
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
VERY NICE! Now that’s some cargo space for a small car! If they made this in an E-REV, I would buy it.
Yes, it’s a little bigger, so it probably won’t get 40 miles AER and won’t go 100 MPH, but I need some cargo space, so I can deal with it. This is the E-REV we need.
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
#13 Woooo hooo!
I will take one in the plug in please.
In fact if my wife and I are lucky enough to get a first year volt (that’s our goal) I’ll trade it in for a plug in version of this baby!
It’s perfect for my needs.
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October 4th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
I’m trading my Civic in on a Volt. I’d be willing to trade in my MDX for an E-Flex version of the Orlando.
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October 4th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
#7 DonC Says: “Too much car for the available battery packs. Maybe with the next generation of batteries.”
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I think the picture is deceptive. The wheels are probably small.
They say it’s based on the same chassis as the Volt, so it has to be a small vehicle, probably like a Toyota Matrix or something. I don’t think it would be as big as a Honda CRV, because the Volt/Cruze chassis is comparable to a Honda Civic, and the CRV is based on an Accord chassis.
If it’s as big as a Saturn Vue, then I agree it wouldn’t work as an E-REV, but it seems impossible that a vehicle that large could fit on such a small chassis.
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October 4th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
#14 Rooster Says: “I’m trading my Civic in on a Volt. I’d be willing to trade in my MDX for an E-Flex version of the Orlando.”
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The Orlando will be MUCH smaller than an MDX. Smaller than the RDX as well. Probably something more like a Toyota Matrix, or maybe a hair bigger.
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October 4th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
LyelL #11
“True, and the battery format would need to be reworked. No place for the T shape in this car. ”
*** *** ***
This is the same platform as the Volt so it should be able to accept the exact same battery. The photos are deceptive as the view through the back hatch has the seats folded over.
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October 4th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
If I was a manager at GM this would be a done deal.
Build it.
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October 4th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I would prefer this in e-flex to the Volt, I like being able to carry loads, bicycles, and friends in my current Mini Van. I want E-REV enough to sacrifice the body type, but this would be ideal, indeed better than my current Minivan in body form, AND e-flex, best of both worlds.
I just hope GM announces the other types of e-flex before they take my deposit on a Volt.
I’d be very happy with 30 miles e-range for this. (20 mile round trip commute).
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October 4th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
#15 Dave G – “I think the picture is deceptive. The wheels are probably small.”
It supposedly seats seven. Seven people and their stuff is a lot of weight. Plus of course you have to add the weight of the battery.
The Volt range is for city driving. Start driving fast and your range will drop. Start going up hills and your range will drop. The Volt is actually pushing the envelope on weight. Adding 500-750 Kg is just not going to make for a very long or very fast ride. The energy density is just not there at the moment.
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:16 am
I hope the E-Flex Corvette is next
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October 5th, 2008 at 2:29 am
#5, Arch:
You need an education on postwar Japan if you think the japanese automakers didn’t have any government help, or don’t still have help.
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October 5th, 2008 at 2:52 am
Why not a small truck? Something like the S-10’s of yesteryear.
Change the depth of the bed and add a thin battery pack under the bed. So the bed isn’t as deep as before- big deal, just tie everything down!
Use a small engine or even a honda generator in the front. Have it use diesel/gas/lng/biofuel/solar. Four wheel drive with electric motors on every wheel. Comes in with some goodies for under $20,000.
40 miles before the batteries are drained. Over 300 mpg in town. Build them and they will come! Please
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:03 am
#20 Don C
“The Volt range is for city driving. Start driving fast and your range will drop. Start going up hills and your range will drop. The Volt is actually pushing the envelope on weight. Adding 500-750 Kg is just not going to make for a very long or very fast ride. The energy density is just not there at the moment.”
There is plenty of power density in the battery for speed and quickness. It would of course require a more powerful traction motor, something more in the 140KW range. They would also need to upscale the power electronics at the same time and it was perhaps the power electronics that caused the downsizing from 120KW to 111KW in the first place. 30 miles range for this design with the same battery pack sounds about right. That would certainly be acceptable for many people. Performance on long slopes would probably be limited without a larger pack or require user interaction to avoid starting an ascent with too little energy in the battery. All of these can be easily overcome for a 2nd generation EREV.
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:26 am
I like it! I have a ‘92 Subaru Legacy wagon now, it would be a perfect replacement. Try to get it under $25k.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:41 am
If Chrysler is putting out a van EREV then GM will need to put one out too to compete. (Someone mentioned the HHR being a johnny-come-lately in a previous thread). I want to hear about the Flextreme concept and what they are planning for that car. I thought that concept looked as good if not better then the concept Volt. Maybe even better then the production Volt, without the segue scooters that is.
#5 Arch Says:
I am tired of all the games being played.
I’d say we are lucky to have heard so much about the Volt at this point in the process. I doubt we will get anywhere near this much information about any other EV’s in the future. I’m grateful for what we have seen so far from GM.
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October 5th, 2008 at 6:47 am
I have been thinking strongly about the Chrysler plug-in minivan ever since its announcement. The Volt, as I predicted, is getting worse and worse – now, it seems that driving at highway speed will shorten the AER, and most of my driving IS at highway speed. Add that to the fact that GM sucked all the fun out of the Volt by killing the Concept Volt, and suddenly I’m not as interested in the current snoremobile “Volt” as I was before.
I would get excited about the Chevy Orlando, but I’ve been lied to by GM before. I don’t trust the SOB’s – they killed my beloved Concept Volt. I have no doubt that after all GM’s lies about the Orlando, it will be nothing like the “concept”. Would it be too much to ask of GM that they should test a scale model of any “concept” in a wind tunnel BEFORE parading it before a public that is hungry for new, exciting car concepts that DON’T look like an egg with wheels ? Perhaps if the Volt had been badged under Pontiac, GM would have kept more of the Concept, to make the Volt more fun.
As for me, I’m soooo over the Volt. The 7 gallon gas tank was ok by me, the engine not fully recharging the batteries disappointed me, the Production Volt was a huge mistake that I was trying to accept – now, reduced AER at highway speed ? Another broken GM promise ? That’s more lies than I can take. GM promised 40 AER at speeds up to 100 MPH – they PROMISED, and they LIED.
I’ll wait on a plug-in car that has the bugs worked out, delivers what it promises, and looks cool doing it. I am not paying $617.00 a month for a car that’s disappointing (40.000 est price, minus 7500.00 tax rebate = 32750.00 est purchase price. At 5% interest for 5 years, with no cash down or trade = $617.00 a month). I admit, no down payment or trade is a worst case scenerio, but it gives you a true picture of exactly how much the Volt will cost per month.
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I’ll just sit back, wait 25 months, and watch. It’s pretty pathetic to see the posters here saying “put the Volt on the road now”, when they know the Volt is at least 25 months away. What are they thinking – Bob’s going to walk in and give them a Volt ? Please ! It should be LJGTVWOTR25MFN (Let’s Just Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road 25 Months From Now), in the interest of truth in advertising.
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October 5th, 2008 at 6:50 am
DonC #20
It supposedly seats seven. Seven people and their stuff is a lot of weight. Plus of course you have to add the weight of the battery.
___________________________
Maybe GM and Nutri-System could team up on a promotion and they could go on a diet
But whatever you do, don’t fall in love with the concept, because the production version will look totally different and break 60% of your hearts.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:00 am
#20 DonC Says: “It supposedly seats seven. Seven people and their stuff is a lot of weight. Plus of course you have to add the weight of the battery.”
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I’m assuming an E-REV version would seat only 6. The T-shaped battery would prevent 3 people from sitting in the 2nd row seats.
I’m also assuming the 3rd row seats are very small. They’re squeezed between the rear wheel wells, just like the station wagons of yester-year. This would presumably be for children or other small people. In addition, cargo space would be practically eliminated with the 3rd row seats folded up, so that may even be a wash for max load weight.
The point I’m trying to make is that, while an Orlando would certainly be versatile, I don’t think it would add a lot of weight. The Volt’s drive train would probably work. The acceleration, AER, and MPG would all be a little worse, but that’s the typical trade-off for this type of vehicle. They might even be able to beef up the electric motor electronics to keep acceleration about the same.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Do you see ANY of the foreign manufacturers demanding such incentives? Watch out for Nissan, Toyota, and others that have electrified their product lines WITHOUT the strings.
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You bet I see foreign mfgrs demanding incentives. Daimler built a plant in Alabama and received a subsidy in the hundreds of millions. It worked out to $500,000 for each job created.
I also dislike these subsidies, but as long as they are offered, GM has a responsibility to employees and shareholders a like to go for them.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:24 am
#27 Grump,
“- now, reduced AER [for the volt] at highway speed ?”
———————————————————
Where is this info coming from?
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:32 am
#8 Dave B Says: Do you see ANY of the foreign manufacturers demanding such incentives? Watch out for Nissan, Toyota, and others that have electrified their product lines WITHOUT the strings.”
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You might be mis-informed on this particular issue. The $7500 plug-in tax credit bill originally had a minimum 5kWh battery to be eligible for any part of the tax credit. Toyota was unhappy about this because their upcoming Prius Plug-in battery was smaller than 5kWh, so Toyota lobbied Congress and they changed the bill. Now Toyota’s small battery gets something like a $4000 tax credit.
And by the way, if I remember correctly, the Prius got a $2500 tax credit for the first 60,000 sold.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:36 am
As for me, I’m soooo over the Volt. The 7 gallon gas tank was ok by me, the engine not fully recharging the batteries disappointed me, the Production Volt was a huge mistake that I was trying to accept – now, reduced AER at highway speed ? Another broken GM promise ? That’s more lies than I can take. GM promised 40 AER at speeds up to 100 MPH – they PROMISED, and they LIED.
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It is because of attitudes like this that most auto companies (or large organizations of any type), do not release performance specs when a product is in development. GM made a bold decision to give the public a window into the development process of the VOLT, and all some people can do is accuse them of lying.
They are inventing the first 100mpg car with the performance and amenities people expect in a regular car, and when specs change, all you can do is throw around the word liar.
Should they be like Apple, where you do not even know what they are working on until Steve announces a few weeks before it hits the stores?
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:41 am
OK, let’s assume an Orlando E-REV is feasible with the same drive train as the Volt, and that it would get 30 miles of all-electric range, and 40 MPG. These numbers are significantly lower than the Volt due to added weight, height, and worse aerodynamics. So how would that compare in terms of gas savings?
Using a typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
and assuming night time only charging,
• the Volt gets 314 MPG average
• the Prius Plug-In gets 70 MPG average
• the Orlando E-REV gets 211 MPG average
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:52 am
#33 tom harwick Says: “They are inventing the first 100mpg car with the performance and amenities people expect in a regular car, and when specs change, all you can do is throw around the word liar.”
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Yes, I agree. However, I think you sell the Volt short calling it 100 MPG. My post #34 calculates 314 MPG average. I think this is a realistic expectation of how much gas the Volt will actually save. I hope the EPA adopts this method.
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:22 am
The Volt does not use all the space in the T shaped pack today, more batteries could be added in this car. The Volt does not use all of its pack but just 50%, GM is making 40 miles all electric range promise but when new the cars will go over 50 for most people, on the other hand if you open the windows and go 100 mph over a road it may not go 40 mile all electric. A 2008 Corvette going 62 mile an hour might get 27-33 mpg, but going 120 miles per hour get 12 miles per gallon or less.
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Way to go Lyle.
Now you’ve done it.
Even hinting that the Orlando Concept *MIGHT* become an E-Flex vehicle at some time (great idea) is like waving a red cloth in front of a bull FOR SOME PEOPLE.
The “Dirty-Angry-Hippies” are now going to chime in and remind us all (again and again and again) that the Production Volt body failed to match the Concept Volt.
“THOSE EVIL WASCALS AT GM THAT CRUSHED ALL OUR LEASED EV1’s ARE OUT TO JERK US AND THE PLANET ALL OVER AGAIN ! DAMM THEM ! DAMM THEM ALL TO HELL !
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:47 am
# 37 is right, this is a concept vehicle, not a production. If they DO bring this into production there may be many design changes, taking a large load off the battery, drag and weight wise, making an E-flex version possible.
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:33 am
#27 The Grump:
As for me, I’m soooo over the Volt. The 7 gallon gas tank was ok by me, the engine not fully recharging the batteries disappointed me, the Production Volt was a huge mistake that I was trying to accept – now, reduced AER at highway speed ?
——————-
I don’t get it, Grump. You’re a veteran on here, I assumed that you liked the volt partly because it would help reduce your gas consumption. Was I wrong? Obviously if the gas engine charges your battery from the 30% to 80%, you are wasting gas to get energy that could come from the grid.
In fact, why would you ever need to plug it in at all with that sequence? Did you expect the batteries to drain, then the ICE kick on and stay on until you got to 80%? Then when would it turn back on again? That’d be wasting gas and battery cycling.
If the Volt can (conservatively!) make 250 long-haul miles on a tank, that’s a normal range for a lot of people. A bigger tank equals less available space, more wasted weight (lower AER), and more chance that a full tank of gas goes stale. Is all that waste worth the ‘excitement’ of being able to go 500 miles on a trip without filling up?
And I’m sorry if you expected the Volt to magically ignore wind resistance on the highway and get the same or better AER than slow/city driving. Hell, if they’d stuck with the (yes, amazing looking) concept, it’d be an order of magnitude worse! I’m not sure why AER matters to you that much though, as you would prefer the ICE to stay on at and keep your battery fully charged for.. whatever reason.
I’m sorry if I’ve sounded condescending to you, but damn, I thought you were a on our side! We were both excited about the concept Volt. For me, it was hugely about the EREV with the bonus of stunning looks. I think it was the other way around for you, and I’m sorry. Maybe we can both agree that the less fuel a vehicle uses, the more forgiving (to a point!) we can be on styling? I know both have come down since the concept, and we were fed falsities, but it’s still amazing! My current driving pattern would get me a conservative 214 mpg, with NO GAS used on a normal day!
Volt or not, I’ll be standing in line next to you for the first non-ass-ugly, affordable EV to hit the market. Right now, it’s still looking like GM will be first, but there’s still a race to be run.
NPNS! =D~~
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:38 am
#28 benson : But whatever you do, don’t fall in love with the concept, because the production version will look totally different and break 60% of your hearts.
————
How many people are in love with the Orlando concept here? It looks like an ugly Dodge hunk of metal to me. I could build a more shapely, seductive car out of duplo blocks.
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The only thing hampering the Volt’s success (aside from the price point) is its relative lack of utility compared what a lot of people might need. An E-Flex crossover or utility vehicle of some sort would make a lot of sense, and probably sell well, if priced reasonably. I’m sure Chrysler’s introduction of the Town & Country EV had GM re-consider a lot of options all of a sudden!
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:26 am
The Delta MPV7 is not coming to North America. It’s not a maybe. It’s a no.
The plant was scheduled to be in conversion as we speak…for a 09 rollout. There is nothing, nada going on here or anywhere else in NA on the Delta II platform…and the Union boss has already confirmed it…so thats it.
GM has no faith in this application of the platform I don’t think, so it is out to the roadside.
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Other news, best picture of the Volt yet:
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/parisboothprofessionals/1003886193?viewSize=thumb1280×1280
…another of thier ‘engineers’?
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:36 am
This looks interesting, especially if they do E-REV with it (would be a no-brainer in the future.. maybe not so much for first release; they’d probably wait to see how the volt does)
The picture is deceiving. A 7-seater vehicle on a compact platform? This is probably about the size of a Vibe.
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Hey Lyle,
How about a post on BYD?
Buffett powers into electric cars, buying 10% of BYD
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/berkshire-powers-electric-cars-buy/story.aspx?guid=A0737406-0BEC-4527-84CB-8EEA08BD1792#comments
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:47 am
• the Volt gets 314 MPG average
• the Prius Plug-In gets 70 MPG average
• the Orlando E-REV gets 211 MPG average
The use of “gets” is misleading, at best.
In other words, those are really only estimates… and ideal condition at that.
There is no real-world data to support the numbers… since none of those vehicles are actually available. Volt is still a prototype and most definitely not winter-tested yet. The new generation of Prius isn’t available. And an Orlando hybrid is very new concept.
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:49 am
#40 jdsv Says: “How many people are in love with the Orlando concept here?”
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Well, I think most cars are ugly. The only cars that look good to me seem to cost around $100K, and they don’t do what I need anyway. So I don’t really buy cars for looks.
But the basic concept of a small wagon or micro-van E-REV, that I’m in love with! Small, efficient, room for our dog in the back, room for a bunch of people, room for guitars, amps, or drums, room for stuff from home depot, room for a vacation, room for life!
Orlando E-REV – This is the type of car I want!
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:58 am
China’s BYD to Sell Electric Cars and Plug-in Hybrids in Israel in 2009
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/byd-china-electric-cars-plug-in-hybrids-israel-2009.php
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Looks a little like the GM Sequel which should be on the roads in CA, like the Honda FCX Clarity.
NPNS.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Look too much like the UGLY Pontiac AZTEK Give it electric range even 20 miles or forget it altogether.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:11 am
I still like the Volt. One thing I have been pushing for in the Volt is higher ground clearance. After seeing the Volt up close I know the stance is closer to a Camry than to a CR-V.
Didn’t AMC sell an Eagle with 7″ of ground clearance? This would be ideal in an EV.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/1982_amc_eagle_sx4.jpg
=D~
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:15 am
#47 # Dave G
“But the basic concept of a small wagon or micro-van E-REV, that I’m in love with! Small, efficient, room for our dog in the back, room for a bunch of people, room for guitars, amps, or drums, room for stuff from home depot, room for a vacation…”
Agreed! I think this is the perfect sweet spot for the millions, now embarrassed or otherwise, to buy their full size mini-vans.
Here’s a vehicle that holds all of Dave G’s junk, or simply 1 mom, her 2.3 kids, plus 3.7 of their friends (dad will meet them at the place in his Volt, as he’s coming in from the office).
=D~~~~
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I think this is a great looking automobile, especially as a minivan. If they keep true to the concept, this would be a great seller. I’d buy one if I had kids.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:28 am
#46 john1701a Says: ”
• the Volt gets 314 MPG average
• the Prius Plug-In gets 70 MPG average
• the Orlando E-REV gets 211 MPG average
The use of “gets” is misleading, at best. In other words, those are really only estimates… and ideal condition at that. There is no real-world data to support the numbers… since none of those vehicles are actually available.”
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I disagree. Yes, these numbers are estimates, as all mileage numbers are estimates, but there is data to support them. And they’re not based on ideal conditions, but rather on a typical driving pattern.
Specifically, if the Volt gets 40 miles AER and 50 MPG after that, then using the yearly driving pattern in post #34, the Volt will get 314 MPG average. You can’t argue that.
You can argue the driving pattern, but I think this is fairly typical. You can argue the 40 miles AER, but GM has stated repeatedly that the Volt will have 40 miles AER at end of life (10 years or 150K miles). You can argue 50 MPG, but GM seems to be holding this number as well.
Toyota has released numbers for the the Prius plug-in as well. Specifically, if it runs at 150 MPG for the first 16 miles, and then 47 MPG after that, then using the yearly driving pattern in post #34, the Prius Plug-In will get 70 MPG average.
As for an Orlando E-REV, 30 miles AER and 40 MPG are both pure speculation, but it’s interesting to see that such a vehicle would produce 211 MPG average using a typical driving pattern. In addition, it’s not unreasonable to assume numbers in this range for an Orlando E-REV.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Dave G Says:
October 4th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
#14 Rooster Says: “I’m trading my Civic in on a Volt. I’d be willing to trade in my MDX for an E-Flex version of the Orlando.”
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The Orlando will be MUCH smaller than an MDX. Smaller than the RDX as well. Probably something more like a Toyota Matrix, or maybe a hair bigger.
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Dave,
My take is this concept is sized more closely to the Mazda CX 9. http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=CX9
The Orlando concept is said to have 3 row “stadium seating”, implying that the bottom seat cushions will be high off the floor. The original Dodge Caravans in the 80s had short wheel bases and were built off the K-car chassis (may they rest in peace), but they could seat seven in relative comfort because of the high roof line and high seat height. The Orlando concept appears to follow this design philosophy with a high roof line, so things might not be as tight in the 2nd and 3rd rows as it would appear based on the wheel base alone. One can hope.
Full Disclosure: Actually, I need my MDX replacement to be capable of towing a small boat (<3000 lbs). I’m not exactly positive an “E-Flex” Orlando would be capable of towing that much, if anything at all. Consequently, I’m most likely holding out for a plug in-2 mode hybrid Buick Enclave. Personally, I’d be thrilled if it could average 45-50 MPG for the first 40 miles, then revert to standard 2-mode hybrid operation and average 27-30 MPG until it is plugged in again. I’d be happy even if it could only operate in EV mode at low speeds (<35 MPH).
Personally, I like the idea behind the 2-mode Saturn Plug-in that is coming out next year. Unfortunately, it is too small for my needs. I need seven passenger seating. The Enclave has more room than the Tahoe, and I don’t need (or want) a V8 and 21 MPG (in hybrid form) – my MDX averages that now. Besides, the Tahoe’s 3 row seat is a terrible design for a vehicle that large– the 3rd row bottom seat cushion is on the floor, so your knees end up under your chin – assuming an adult tries to sit back there – but I digress.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:43 am
#53 Craig Says: “I think this is a great looking automobile, especially as a minivan. If they keep true to the concept, this would be a great seller. I’d buy one if I had kids.”
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I think the picture is misleading and the Orlando is much smaller than a minivan. They’re calling it a “Microvan”.
Also, note that a small car with some cargo/passenger space has a much wider market than just kids. What about skiing? surfing? dirt-biking? back-packing? In fact, I would say such a vehicle might have a sizable target market among young men.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:45 am
>> You can’t argue that.
Good luck! Consumers decide how the game is played.
You’ve got quite a reality shock coming. History overwhelming reveals estimates to be misleading and efficiency claims simply won’t be accepted without lots of data to support them.
That’s the way the market works… whether you like it or not.
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:50 am
#39 jdsv – “I’m sorry if I’ve sounded condescending to you, but damn, I thought you were a on our side!”
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I am on your side. Unfortunately, GM is not on my side. I was willing to pay for a Volt, even after GM destroyed the Concept. I could, eventually, learn to live with it.
However, recent posts are showing that the AER decreases as the Volt’s speed increases. I travel 70 MPH on route I 95 (big hwy which runs along the east coast, from Florida to God knows where in Canada). 70 is the same speed everyone else is driving – drive slower and you may get run over. Now, I have no idea what my AER would be with a Volt, but it certainly wouldn’t be 40 miles at that speed.
It’s the straw that broke the camel’s back – one GM lie too many. The Volt now has competition. If the wind-tunnel-tested-to-death Volt cannot get 40 miles at highway speeds (25 months from now, may I add), there’s a lot of plug in cars coming, in roughly the same 25 month time frame.
The Insight is due on April 22, 2009 (Earth Day). A reasonably priced mild hybrid to act as a 25 month bridge to our plug-in future. The Prius may be the first production plug-in car, due in late 2009. Maybe EEStor will surprise us and finally produce something more than talk. Mazda and Chrysler are working on plug-ins, due about the same time frame as the Volt. Personally, I am thinking the Insight now, and either the Town and Country or the Orlando later. An E-flex minivan is right up my alley – room for more stuff. BTW, seriously, give E-Flex to Pontiac, so they can add some excitement to the E-Flex line. Also, make it the Pontiac Orlando, so Chevrolet cannot get it’s concept-destroying hands on it.
I do not bow to, and am not loyal to, any car manufacturer. I was on GM’s side, but now, I don’t know what to believe. Will I get 40 miles at 70 MPH with a Volt ? No. How many electric-only miles will I get ? Unknown. Price ? Still approximately $40000 before tax credit. I’ve compromised on the Volt enough. The deal just got worse. Bring on the competition.
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Lyle, it looks like another Joe is registered on this site. Please check.
Thanks, Joe
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I guess this is the thread I should have posted this in for discussion, lol…as I just posted this in the old one, but I see it here too:
#34 DaveG
Using a typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
and assuming night time only charging,
• the Volt gets 314 MPG average
• the Prius Plug-In gets 70 MPG average
• the Orlando E-REV gets 211 MPG average
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For the record, I completely agree that your numbers are probably the closest pattern of the average driver in one year. I used to try and explain your model myself to the masses…as a reason why a pure electric vehicle was superior to a E-Rev already….didn’t go so well for me, lol.
There seeme to be alot less resistance however, if you word it so that it impunes the viability of the Prius and helps the Volt…go figure.
Right now all electric car planned for production go much farther than 60 miles. According to you and your handy graph, most people should own a pure EV (like the iMiev) and just drive their other car for those 3 long trips. (or if we are assuming they only own a $40,000 vehicle and nothing else…rent a car 3 times a year).
Is this not so?
For the record, the most popular reasons I got ‘back in the day’ were:
A) people worry and need a redundant system
B) 100 mile range anxiety
(which to me are both weak sauce…I’m not afraid of boogey men in my closet at night either)
Side note on the three 450 mile journeys, which has really nothing to do with your chart, just a observation. What ‘well off’ person (enought to afford a 40K car) is taking a econobox platform on 450 mile trek? I know I wouldn’t.
I drove a Dodge Shadow from Toronto to Florida when I was very young…I learned my lesson, never again.
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
I don’t see any deception in the fact that the Volt may not go 40 miles at highway speeds. I don’t think that’s what GM promised. They said “40 miles.” Like the Cruze is supposed to get “40 mpg.” Who knows what it will actually get, or under what conditions. The Volt is just like any other car that may not get its rated gas mileage in some situations (and may exceed it in others). The only difference is that an electric vehicle’s “sweet spot” is at lower speeds, when the motor is consuming less battery power. As opposed to an ICE, which runs most efficiently at some intermediate RPM and gets terrible mpg in city driving because the engine not in its sweet spot and burns fuel even when the car is stopped. You know how some full hybrids like the Prius get equal or better gas mileage in the city than on the highway? It’s the same idea with the Volt, only taken a step further.
“However, recent posts are showing that the AER decreases as the Volt’s speed increases.”
Please, this should be no great surprise. I could have told you that from the beginning…though as an engineering major maybe I have a leg up.
Just keep your head up…can’t wait to see some actual reviews of the Volt!
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
#34 Dave G is right on the typical numbers,
“Using a typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day”
#60 Statik is right on the analysis,
” ….most people should own a pure EV (like the iMiev)….”
——————————————–
But the big, established car companies are loathe to cut their own throats with a low cost, low maintenance car that could last for decades (just replace the batteries every 10 years or so).
If the free market is allowed to work, startups and smaller car companies will push into the market with a BEV and force the big car companies to compete with the same.
I think there’s a market for the EREV, just not a mass market, if the BEV is allowed to compete.
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October 5th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
#62 add,
Of course, one could argue that no electric vehicles will happen without the batteries, and even a circuituous route to the batteries (through the volt) is better than no route at all..
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October 5th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
#60 statik
“Side note on the three 450 mile journeys, which has really nothing to do with your chart, just a observation. What ‘well off’ person (enought to afford a 40K car) is taking a econobox platform on 450 mile trek? I know I wouldn’t.”
That would be me, though I’m not sure about the well-off crack (don’t forget to deduct the $7,500).
At different times, we’ve taken the Camry and Prius on vac, across the Appalachians (800 mi. one way). It’s more comfortable in the heavier car, but I enjoy driving around the destination far better in the Prius. It’s just a lot more fun to drive. For that reason, we usually take the Prius.
Ascending the mountains, we do suffer from engine noise “anxiety”, as the hybrid synergy drive keeps the engine revved at it’s optimum efficiency (read loud). But it’s worth the cost of ear plugs as your display shows your mpg pinned to the ceiling on the way down.
With E-Rev, you will be rewarded in spades. And, again, driving around the destination will be far more fun in the Volt!
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October 5th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
If they made a straight battery pack, at least seating for six to seven, front, rear or all wheel drive I’d buy it. Of course, that would give my kid a reason to ask her friends for sleepovers as I would inevitably “volunteered” to pick them up. Parenthood…damn.
…other than that, I like the Orlando as much as I like the city. Build it. I may actually forget the Venture and Uplander.
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October 5th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
#60 statik Says: “Right now all electric cars planned for production go much farther than 60 miles. According to you and your handy graph, most people should own a pure EV and just drive their other car for those 3 long trips…”
————————————————————————————–
Hi statik,
Yes, I’ll debate this with you, as I know it will be in good fun and you won’t flame me.
Most arguments for EVs assume that you either have another gas engine car available, or if not, you can always rent one for a long trip. The underlying assumption here is that you always know when you will be going on a long trip. This is not always true.
For example, let’s say it’s Friday night, and I’m with friends, and one says hey let’s go skiing tomorrow morning! This has happened to me more than once.
Or what if a good friend or relative that lives in the next state goes into the emergency room? What if you are married, and your wife is out somewhere with the other car when you need to leave suddenly? What if you need to go somewhere suddenly and the rental car places are all closed? What if you live in New Jersey, and it’s really expensive to insure 2 cars?
Or more importantly, what if gas gets really expensive, scarce, or otherwise undesirable (not a stretch) and most cars become electric? What happens if there is a power failure?
Or here’s a good one, what if I forget to plug it in? (I know I will).
And the clincher for me is: What happens if E85 ramps up to the point where it can replace 35% of our gasoline usage:
http://coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp (GM is investing heavily in them)
In this case, what is the benefit to eliminating liquid fuel?
By the way, a long trip in a Volt would be cramped. That’s why I want an Orlando E-REV.
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October 5th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
#55 Rooster Says: “My take is this concept is sized more closely to the Mazda CX 9.”
————————————————————————————-
My daughter’s friend’s mother just drove over with a CX 9. That’s a big car, much bigger than our Honda CR-V. The article says that the Orlando “is built on the same global compact delta platform as the Chevy Volt and Cruze.” The Volt and Cruze are compact cars, like a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. How could such a small frame support a body the size of a Mazda CX 9?
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October 5th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Make it
Anyone know what the Pluggin Vue is suppose to run off – it is not an E-Flex – so what is it?
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October 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Volt for the Wife (she hates big Cars) I guess that means I get stuck with the E-Flex Orlando
.
Go GM Go
NPNS =D-
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October 5th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#58 The Grump : It’s the straw that broke the camel’s back – one GM lie too many. The Volt now has competition. If the wind-tunnel-tested-to-death Volt cannot get 40 miles at highway speeds (25 months from now, may I add), there’s a lot of plug in cars coming, in roughly the same 25 month time frame.
————–
I feel you on this one. Compared to what other manufacturers are claiming, I don’t know why the heavily ground-up-engineered Volt is having trouble hitting its figures, IF it is having trouble and IF the other manufacturers aren’t lying.
25 months is a LONG ways away, not considering I have about zero chance of getting one anywhere near that date. On the flip side to long wait, 25 months is decades in technology years.. it would be relatively no effort to plug in a better battery, which is why they haven’t signed their contract just yet.
I am fully expecting that two or three years from now, the Volt’s stats will look BETTER than they do now. I also recognize the good chance that someone will get a near-equivalent car on the road before then, and if it’s around 20K, they’ll get my money instead.
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I think GM had a better concept with the Provoq
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/detroit-2008-cadillac-provoq-fuel-cell-concept-1/
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
#66 Dave G
Hi statik,
Yes, I’ll debate this with you, as I know it will be in good fun and you won’t flame me.
Most arguments for EVs assume that you either have another gas engine car available, or if not, you can always rent one for a long trip. The underlying assumption here is that you always know when you will be going on a long trip. This is not always true.
For example, let’s say it’s Friday night, and I’m with friends, and one says hey let’s go skiing tomorrow morning! This has happened to me more than once.
Or what if a good friend or relative that lives in the next state goes into the emergency room? What if you are married, and your wife is out somewhere with the other car when you need to leave suddenly? What if you need to go somewhere suddenly and the rental car places are all closed? What if you live in New Jersey, and it’s really expensive to insure 2 cars?
Or more importantly, what if gas gets really expensive, scarce, or otherwise undesirable (not a stretch) and most cars become electric? What happens if there is a power failure?
Or here’s a good one, what if I forget to plug it in? (I know I will).
And the clincher for me is: What happens if E85 ramps up to the point where it can replace 35% of our gasoline usage:
http://coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp (GM is investing heavily in them)
In this case, what is the benefit to eliminating liquid fuel?
By the way, a long trip in a Volt would be cramped. That’s why I want an Orlando E-REV.
—————————————
You are obviously mentally challenged! How did you even manage to turn on your computer! I reviewed your arguments and decided that I am right. Case closed.
Any car that even looks at a gas pump supports the middle east and therefore terrorism! The Volt uses gas! I can’t believe you support terrorism Dave! Why do you hate America Dave?
I’ll answer your simpleton questions, if I can slow down my huge brain enough so that you understand it:
1.) let’s say it’s Friday night, and I’m with friends, and one says hey let’s go skiing tomorrow morning! This has happened to me more than once.
a) you don’t have any friends
b) skiing was invented by foreigners, does everything you do have to support other cultures and not America?
c) Question is ‘hey lets go skiiing tomorrow?’
Answer: “No, I can’t go with you, I care about saving the earth and will not be poisoning it today by burning up dinosaur guts and spewing them into the air, thank you very much”
2.) Or what if a good friend or relative that lives in the next state goes into the emergency room?
a) they probably just have a bad cold and need some amoxicillin, what do you follow all your friends around watching them at doctor’s offices when they get colds? You probably just want to get a peak at their behinds…sicko, thats your sister!
b) another non local trip, eh? can’t you and your family and close friends stay in one spot, what were they doing out there anyway? the ‘next state’ was probably Mexico and they are into black market human trafficing
3.) What if you are married, and your wife is out somewhere with the other car when you need to leave suddenly?
Why did you preface this by saying ‘what if you are married’ and then used the word ‘wife,’ that is so redundant. I fear I cannot answer this question, because I had to stop reading it right there.
4.) What if you live in New Jersey, and it’s really expensive to insure 2 cars?
It is a known fact that anyone who lives in New Jersey are indeed poor, so I was going to conceed this one to you…until I realized they are also all criminals and would not even think of insuring a car at all.
5.) what if I forget to plug it in? (I know I will).
This is a real problem, you can probably answer this one yourself however. What do you do when you forget to put gas in the car you have now? (Besides mailing a check for $20 to al-qaeda to make sure they get their weekly stipend from you).
6.) And the clincher for me is: What happens if E85 ramps up to the point where it can replace 35% of our gasoline usage:
Back to hating Americans again? What is with you? You want all the food to be so expensive that the poor starve to death wouldn’t you. Don’t you think inner city kids deserve to know what real corn tastes like?
—-
Hehe, j/k. I hear you…and your points.
Only thing I really don’t agree with you on is that the internet is a fad, that is so ridiculous….and of course your rampant hatred of America.
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I would consider the Orlando with just the diesel and no eflex. The 2.0 diesel with a 6 speed auto should get close to 40 mpg.
I have a ‘63 Corvair, a small carbed motor (don’t remember the size) and a 4 spd. I average 26 mpg in it. I say bring the corvair back. Add fuel injection and a 5spd manual or 6 spd auto and it would probibly be rated at 35 or more.
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Also the Orlando could be the replacement for the HHR, eventually they will need to replace or redesign it. If so it could easily be built in Mexico where the HHR is currently being built. Remember, just because they are going to sell it in the USA does not mean the will build it in the USA. The Colbalt and HHR are built on the same platform, The Cruze, Volt and Orlando are all on the smae platform It woud make sense for GM to build it in Mexico at the HHR plant as it would require the smae retooling that the Cruze plant in Lordstown, OH will need. If by some chance they do build the Orlando in Mexico I will not buy one.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
#58 The Grump – “However, recent posts are showing that the AER decreases as the Volt’s speed increases.”
That’s been true from day one. Of course you get a lower AER as the speed increases. That’s true for every car — electric or ICE — because as speed increases drag increase.
At 70 mph you’ll burn about 14000 watts, about 3/4 of which will be due to drag. That’s about 40 miles on a 8 kWh battery. Factor in drive train losses and you’re looking at a range in the lower 30s. (If you’re in Florida we can safely assume you’re not climbing mountains). If you have a 40 mile commute this should be OK, and if you can plug in at work the entire commute can be electric.
I think a lot of posters on this site just don’t instinctively comprehend the limitations of electric cars. You have about 35 kWh of energy in a gallon of gas. The Volt uses 8 kWh in the battery, which is the energy equivalent of a quarter of a gallon of gas. An electric engine is efficient, but just how far do you think you should be able to go on a quarter of a gallon?
The Volt really has break through technology. By adding an ICE range extender the Volt removes the range issue, plus it’s efficient after that running on the gen set. I don’t understand why you’d be disappointed with getting the first forty or thirty miles on the battery without using any gas and then 50 mpg, which will be better than what the Prius or Insight will get at 70 mph. But the numbers do suggest that all this talk about SUVs using something like E-FLEX is just silly until the batteries come down in price. So forget about the alternatives you’re mentioning for quite a while.
#43 Statik — Always the comedian! LOL I liked the picture. I thought for a minute that I’d stop by the Show to see “it” in person but I figure that when I’m there the “picture” will be gone and all I’d see is the car.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Arch Says:
October 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I am tired of all the games being played. Just give us a car without all the crap. How many stories have we been told? How many times has the price been changed? How many times has the gas tank size been changed? What is the price now that government will pay for $7500 for your car? I am sick and tired of it ALL. JMHO GM has used the net for a VERY effective campaing for this car but I do not like the game being played.
Take Care
Arch
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You want to know the price of a car that does not even exist yet?!!!
Hear what. Why don’t you just drop off the radar for two years and we’ll get back to you when you can handle it.
The car is coming out in 2011! (November 2010)
And you’re asking about the price?
Gives new meaning to “take leave of one’s senses”.
“Price” indeed!
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Dave B Says:
October 4th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I’m not a fan of GM holding out for government incentives. Notice production tied to certain promise by localities… I understand they’re out for profit and the best deal, but this isn’t supposed to be socialism. If they can’t figure out how to beat the competition with a superior product, then game over.
Do you see ANY of the foreign manufacturers demanding such incentives? Watch out for Nissan, Toyota, and others that have electrified their product lines WITHOUT the strings.
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What?!?!
Sir, nobody told these “localities” to tax the businesses therein. Taxes are unfortunately part of the cost of doing business, and these “localities” had darned well be bending over backwards to give GM “incentives” in the form of tax breaks.
Because you can be sure the Japanese got more than that from their own government. It is well documented that Japanese hybrid technology was well-funded by the Japanese government.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
benson Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Maybe GM and Nutri-System could team up on a promotion and they could go on a diet
But whatever you do, don’t fall in love with the concept, because the production version will look totally different and break 60% of your hearts.
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It’s a problem when non-car geeks pile onto a vehicle like they do here. Hilarity ensues.
There is nothing outlandish about this concept (unlike the Volt concept) so there is no reasonable expectation for the microvan here to look much different in production form.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Microvan?
Looks like a station wagon to me.
Seems to be a slow news day. Maybe we can get back to Volt and all the technical challenges. One thing I thought about as I listened to my am radio, while the wife was running on the treadmill, was electronic interference. When the treadmill runs, it dumps a lot of electrical noise on my household service. This causes my radio to “whine” in tune with the treadmill.
So, that got me to thinking, about the Volt. When the Volt is running, the inverter section that drives the motors puts out an incredible amount of noise and harmonics (caused by those pulsed DC currents, with sharp edges, that emit HF noise across a large frequency spectrum). So, if I am listening to any AM station on my radio (FM should be mainly immune to the noise, since FM uses frequency modulation, versus AM, which uses amplitude modulation) in my $40,000 Volt, will they have sufficient noise suppression when listening to my favorite AM620 news radio station?
Maybe a good question for our GM engineers?
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
#73 J Man Says: “I would consider the Orlando with just the diesel and no eflex. The 2.0 diesel with a 6 speed auto should get close to 40 mpg.”
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An Orlando E-REV would get around 211 mpg. (see post #34).
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
statik Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Other news, best picture of the Volt yet:
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/parisboothprofessionals/1003886193?viewSize=thumb1280×1280
…another of thier ‘engineers’?
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Statik, Sir, that woman is not very attractive.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
#72 statik,
I do not associate with terrorists! (well, maybe that one time, but don’t tell anyone).
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
#82 Dave G
#72 statik,
I do not associate with terrorists! (well, maybe that one time, but don’t tell anyone).
—————————————————
After my last post, your never going to be able to fly on a airplane again! Hehe.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Sorry GM. I got on the Honda Insight waiting list this week (At least informally with a dealer I know). I am not totally commited to the Insight, but I need a solution and right now Honda’s Insight seems to the the only solution to be reasonably “in sight” (pun intended).
I could barely afford a $20k car, and the Volt is not even going to be close to my range. I will also keep an “eye” on the iMeiv (again, pun intended), but I don’t think we will be seeing this available in the US for at least 3 years+
Still, I hope GM can make a “reasonably” prices E-Rev for the general populace.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
I have suspect GM has not thought much beyond the Volt and staying in business long enough to bring it and the Cruze to market. Somehow I think GM is still thinking too short term at this time. They need to be thinking pretty hard about a family style e-Flex because the competition is certainly do so. GM could get caught short again, if they don’t put their thinking in forward gear.
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
#81 Jon
statik Says: Other news, best picture of the Volt yet
—————-
Statik, Sir, that woman is not very attractive.
====================================
Well, I did say ‘yet’
…but I know what you where really hoping to see more of, so I will hook you up my friend.
http://us.tnpv.net/2008/GMC200809/GMC2008091637025_PV.jpg
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Dave G
My wife said I should have put in a
in #52 lest you misunderstand my use of the word Junk. Didn’t mean to insult your stuff. Trying to be funny 
to make a point.
=D~~~~
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October 5th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
#52 George K Says: “Here’s a vehicle that holds all of Dave G’s junk, or simply 1 mom, her 2.3 kids, plus 3.7 of their friends (dad will meet them at the place in his Volt, as he’s coming in from the office).”
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Yes, well said. Junk is part of life.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
#75 DonC Says: “You have about 35 kWh of energy in a gallon of gas. The Volt uses 8 kWh in the battery, which is the energy equivalent of a quarter of a gallon of gas.”
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Yes. Simple physics makes a strong case for liquid fuels. That’s why the E-REV drive train is so effective.
Looking at ethanol, a regular gas engine won’t use it as efficiently, so it would appear less efficient. But if you use an engine that’s tuned for ethanol, it’s actually better than gas – more power, higher MPG. So looking further into the future, ethanol looks bright.
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
#85 N Riley Says: “Somehow I think GM is still thinking too short term at this time. They need to be thinking pretty hard about a family style e-Flex because the competition is certainly do so. GM could get caught short again, if they don’t put their thinking in forward gear.”
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Here’s the problem; Most housewives are in denial. They don’t see themselves in a station wagon or minivan. The idea makes them want to throw up. This is part of the reason SUVs are popular. Somehow moms don’t see SUVs as family vehicles. Not sure why that is.
At the same time, there is a significant market among people without kids for a small gas-efficient vehicle with some cargo space. For example, would you say the Scion brand is aimed at housewives with kids?
So here’s the solution. Make an Orlando E-REV, then advertise it as a vehicle for young people doing extreme sports, rock music, social activities, ANYTHING BUT KIDS. Drill this image into the American psyche. Then moms will flock to it by the millions…
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Santa Monica Expo 09/26/08
The fellow in the near left with the dark shirt is a GM rep. He was very good to talk with and had more general knowledge to share than hard numbers. He let us look in the front and read seat areas but not in the hatch or hood areas. A local media girl asked me for a short interview wherein I mentioned gm-volt.com as my information source.
FYI: Since this Volt wasn’t actually an “ICE” Volt the underside was totally flat. A different rep mentioned the addition of a ’small’ exhaust system for the 1.4L ICE engine. And that the pipe would not be visible from the rear. I responded by asking, “Will the pipe be placed behind the rear axle pointing downward?”. He shook his head, “yes”.
A good look at the Volt plug in.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt_plugin_092608_Expo.jpg
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
#89 Dave G – “But if you use an engine that’s tuned for ethanol, it’s actually better than gas – more power, higher MPG. So looking further into the future, ethanol looks bright.”
I didn’t know that. I always assumed the energy density of ethanol was simply lower.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Density
Not sure about ethanol though. I’d guess some form of algae grown in a closed system might be better, but this is not my area of expertise.
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Dave G Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
#55 Rooster Says: “My take is this concept is sized more closely to the Mazda CX 9.”
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My daughter’s friend’s mother just drove over with a CX 9. That’s a big car, much bigger than our Honda CR-V. The article says that the Orlando “is built on the same global compact delta platform as the Chevy Volt and Cruze.” The Volt and Cruze are compact cars, like a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. How could such a small frame support a body the size of a Mazda CX 9?
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I’m assuming GM just stretched the wheel base — look at the rear door, it’s longer than the front. To me, it looks like the distance between the front and rear tires is greater than on the Volt. Like I said, one can hope. I’d really like to see the 2 vehicles side by side.
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
#92 DonC Says: “Not sure about ethanol though. I’d guess some form of algae grown in a closed system might be better, but this is not my area of expertise.”
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Algae is mostly being looked at for bio-diesel. Ethanol will probably be made from switchgrass, wood chips, crop residue, etc.
http://coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
#93 Rooster Says: “I’m assuming GM just stretched the wheel base — look at the rear door, it’s longer than the front. To me, it looks like the distance between the front and rear tires is greater than on the Volt.”
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Yes, I’m thinking the same thing. So you would you would probably end up with something like a Toyota Matrix only longer, squarer, and with the wheels sticking out wider, which is shown by the body sticking out around the wheels. A wider distance between the wheels allows enough width for a 3rd row seat between the wheel wells. But I would guess the main body width is about the same as a compact car.
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
As a minivan driver, I’m excited about this concept. An AER of 30 miles is OK with me as most of my driving is short errands or long trips. The diesel makes SOOOOO much sense to me. Great efficiency, lots of torque, etc.
I have one concern. I use my current minivan to pull my pop-up camper. I’ve pulled larger trailers as well. I need this flexibility in my next vehicle as well.
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
stop with all this “MICRO” stuff we are americans we want HUGE CARS why dont they give what we want an e-rev 3/4 ton suburban, 1ton truck, esclade esv, and a hummer. not a stupid micro car and van.
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
#92 DonC Says: “Not sure about ethanol though. I’d guess some form of algae grown in a closed system might be better, but this is not my area of expertise.”
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The company is called Solazyme, and my sources tell me they are well ahead of anyone else — the algae they use does not require sunlight!
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10021122-54.html
http://www.solazyme.com/news090908.shtml
http://www.solazyme.com/news080415.shtml
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October 5th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
E flex it! It’s a good looking station wagon – I mean crossover. It should have a vanity plate with the name “Tony” on it. Then you can have a Volt with the plate “and Dawn”.
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October 6th, 2008 at 6:31 am
It looks like someone stepped on it.
It’s what I need, but it sure is ugly.
LJGTVWOTR
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October 6th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Looks awesome. I will need a new family car in a couple of years for the wife and two kids. I kinda hate SUVs, but would consider a smaller one like the Saturn Vue. This looks like a great replacement in the GM lineup for the Chevy HRR. From what I understand, the HRR shares the Cobalt platform. So when the Cruze takes over the Lordstown facility and the Cobalt is discontinued, I wouldn’t be surprised in the Mexican-assembled HRR is next on the chopping block.
Small footprint, good fuel economy (especially if an EREV), low slung for good handling. And it looks bigger than the Matrix, er I mean Vibe. I approve!
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October 6th, 2008 at 8:15 am
I would love to see this go into production as an e-flex vehicle, as currently designed. I’m sure it will look like a Town and Country minivan by the time they get done with it, but as it sits right now, I would take it over the Volt.
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October 6th, 2008 at 9:05 am
From GM:
This is just the concept, if you want it with an e-flex powertrain were going to have to stick it in the wind tunnell. When it comes out it won’t look like this so please love the “concept” , not the car.
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October 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Stretch it out just a wee bit (so it can hold 2 adults, 4 kids, and a couple suitcases) and count me in!
I realize I could get a more efficient car if I had less than 4 kids, but I’m not giving them back, and I’m frustrated at the fuel efficiency of all minivans. My 2005 Sienna has a 230hp engine, which is pretty nice, but I’d happily give back 50-80 hp for a few more miles to the gallon…
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October 6th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Third child due in January, and our 2000 Venture is falling apart around us. I’d love to be able to fit all of us into a Volt, but I’m skeptical. This would be a no brainer buy for us.
Still got a few more years in my Saturn SL, so I have some time before it needs replacing.
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October 6th, 2008 at 11:29 am
I love this car!!!
I love the volt, but like stated in others numerous comments above, we are planning on have 3 kids and 3 kids, 2 adults, and all the kids crap doesn’t and won’t fit in the VOLT. The VOLT only has 4 seats and you really can’t put a kid in the trunk. LOL.
So when I saw this I was like sweet!! Then when I read it will have the same platform as the VOLT. I was like SWEET!!! I really want a car that can hold 3 kids, 2 adults, some friends, and all our travel/vacation stuff. And that car needs to be built on the VOLT platform so I can plug it in and also get some kind of all electric range.
I love the plug-in Saturn Vue, but probably won’t buy it because it doesn’t have an all electric range.
Comment # 103 states “This is just the concept, if you want it with an e-flex powertrain were going to have to stick it in the wind tunnel. When it comes out it won’t look like this so please love the “concept” , not the car.”
I hope GM reads the following:
I understand that if you stick it in the wind tunnel it won’t come out looking like the above. Although please don’t make it come out looking like a Minivan!!!!!! I totally hate the look of a Minivan!!! I believe many of the younger families and people agree with me on that one. As the younger generations grow up we want cars like look cooler and have styling to them. Minivans are just to ugly. We like our SUVs but don’t like the gas they use. So please try to make a minivan or a “Microvan” look as much like the above or like an SUV. For example take the Mazda CX-9, I like the way that looks.
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October 6th, 2008 at 11:47 am
The Orlando looks great for a small vehicle.
I’ll take one if they use the same concept as the Volt.
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October 6th, 2008 at 11:47 am
I like it.
#23 Avatar:
I agree with you on the S-10 sized pickup. Exactly what I need for my business. The next best thing would be this small van concept. It would work too.
#32 Dave G:
Good point. Actually, the Prius tax credit was $3500.
#81 Jon:
Speak for yourself. I observe that pickiness regarding the appearance of women decreases as a function of age. Maybe you’re a lot younger than I am, but she looks tres chic to me. I guess it’s sort of like disgruntled bloggers who demand that their names be taken off the Volt waiting list. Our invariable response is, “So much the better, it just moves me up the list!”
#86 statik:
Ouch! You got me that time. I guess I should have expected it.
#103 Jon P:
Roger that on the wind tunnel.
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October 6th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
#90 Dave G
“So here’s the solution. Make an Orlando E-REV, then advertise it as a vehicle for young people doing extreme sports, rock music, social activities, ANYTHING BUT KIDS. Drill this image into the American psyche. Then moms will flock to it by the millions…”
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I bet you are right. Most of the “Moms” I know think they have to have an SUV. Doesn’t matter if it a mid-size SUV or a large Chevy Tahoe or Suburban. They have been brain washed about the safety factor in SUVs. GM needs to insure the Orlando is a “safe” vehicle and tout it as such, plus, as you say, a vehicle for the “in” crowd.
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October 6th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Look, “GUYS”, I am almost 65 (in January) and those ladies pictured with the autos at the Paris Motor Show were all beautiful to my old eyes. As the saying goes: “I wouldn’t kick any of them out of my bed”. As far as that goes, I wouldn’t kick them out of anything of mine. They did sort of dress up those cars with one of two of them a little better than the others. I wonder how much that kind of option would cost? More than I could afford, I guess.
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October 6th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
It would be interesting if GM could put the two-mode hybrid system into a vehicle like the Orlando. You would think there would be plenty of room for that type of hybrid system. I just wonder what kind of mileage it would achieve? GM needs to get off the stick with their very mild, very meek hybrid systems used in the Chevy Malibu and others. These hybrid systems don’t give you enough reason to purchase a hybrid over a standard gas engine. If GM doesn’t get started on something like a smaller two-mode hybrid for their car lines, Toyota, Nissan and Honda, to name but a few, are going to have them for breakfast. I do not want to see that. I want GM, and Chevrolet, especially, to succeed. I know I have been buying Hondas and Nissans lately, but not because I really wanted too. I took a good long look a couple weeks ago at the full Chevrolet line and found too many things that did not satisfy me to want to buy one just yet. I can only wait another 6 months or so, before buying something. It probably will not be a Chevrolet.
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October 6th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I am all for this or other GM vehicles like it to have shorter electric range than 40 miles. Heck, 20 miles would be great. Even 10 miles. It would still serve as a good around town utility vehicle and would replace many of the bigger SUVs on the road. And who said the battery pack had to be T-shaped? Someone mentioned a thinner pack spread over a larger area. That would work, I suppose. Or a battery pack divided into several smaller bundles and stored in places where they would fit. Do some creative thinking, GM and give us some vehicles to compete with the coming competition. It is for our good as well as your survival.
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October 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I would totally buy this car, but only if I could plug it in and it had a decent electric only range. It looks very attractive.
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October 7th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Was planning to buy a Volt in 2010, trading the 2004 Yukon in on one, but would prefer this vehicle over the Volt. Build it, the masses currently with kids and needing more space will buy it. Trust me. the only we keep the Yukon is for the space.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
You know, the more I see of it the more I like it.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
It does have a kind of rakish look to it. I bet the younger generation will like it more than the older gen.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
I keep wondering if GM has any plans to bring the same diesel engine to the U.S. as they will use in it in Europe.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
#110 N Riley:
My sentiments exactly.
#111 N Riley:
Alas too true.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Sorry, for the extra post, but I keep thinking of other things to say right after hitting the submit button.
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October 7th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Since this is a concept vehicle still, I wonder when GM will release more specs on it for us to see.
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October 7th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
This vehicle would not weigh much more than few hundred pounds more than a Volt if that… I expect that it will appear as a Cruze variant and the EFLEX version like the Volt will have a slightly modified appearance to maintian “uniqueness” to the EREV for a while, a la` Prius.
You wouldn’t be carrying around a full load often, just as you wouldn’t be toting around a trunkful of bricks and mortar either.
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October 9th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I’m looking to buy a EFLEX utility vehicle .. this looks good.
would like a model that has the seats that come out so you don’t have to haul around the seats if you don’t need them.
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