Oct 03

Along With Wall Street Bailout, Plug-in Car Tax Credit is Passed: Chevy Volt Now $7500 Less

 

GM and the Chevy Volt turned up three “7s” on the Congressional slot machine. First, automakers got the $25 billion in low interest government loans. Second, the Wall Street bailout will likely help the beleaguered auto industry. Third, plug-in tax credits have now been signed into law.

The now passed by the House and signed by Bush $700 Billion Wall Street bailout bill had a few congressional “sweeteners” in it to help get it passed after failing for the first time in the House earlier in the week.

Sweetest for future Volt buyers is what’s called the Transportation and Domestic Fuel Security Provision.

This provision provides a tax credit for buyers of plug-in electric vehicles. It provides a base of $2500 plus an additional $417 per kwh for batteries greater than 4 kwh. For the Chevy Volt, that works out to $7500 per car, a number GM had lobbied for.

The credit will be applied to the first 250,000 plug-in cars sold in the US and will be phased out to 50% for the following two quarters, and 25% for the two quarters after that before ending. The total cost of the credits will be $758 million.

OK maybe its all money Uncle Sam really doesn’t have, but the odds look better now for GM and the Volt to thrive. And your Volt just got significantly cheaper.

Long live the USA, GM, and the Chevy Volt.


See Section 30 D. of the Bill

This entry was posted on Friday, October 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 pm and is filed under Financial, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 251


  1. 1
    xyxx

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:55 pm)

    For non-Americans, what does “tax credit” mean exactly? Do you have to pay 7500 less, or how does it work?


  2. 2
    Grant

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:56 pm)

    Not bad at all. I’d rather have my money go into my car and not Wall Street.


  3. 3
    Arch

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:56 pm)

    Well that should change the game a little.

    Take Care
    Arch


  4. 4
    Jack Riggins (jrigg on gm-volt.com)

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:06 pm)

    I guess I’m a little fuzzy about exactly how tax credits work.

    As an example, let’s say I buy a Volt in October of 2010.

    I file my taxes for 2010 having paid in $5400 in Federal Income tax. My tax was actually $5100, so I was looking for a $300 refund. This is all before applying the tax credit.

    How much do I actually get back from the IRS? Do I get it all in 2011 along with the rest of my tax refund?

    Sorry for putting this so simply; I guess I am a simple guy.


  5. 5
    Kevin R

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:07 pm)

    That is terrific however, what if I can’t get one right away…..then do those of us who want one get screwed because of the phase out?

    Either the government wants us to switch over or it doesn’t…..I won’t buy one if I can’t get the $7500 credit, especially in light of the fact my neighbor might but I won’t just because GM runs out or doesn’t have it available in Michigan…that would be totally unacceptable to me.


  6. 6
    Bob

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:08 pm)

    “Chevy Volt Now $7500 Less”

    I’m afraid that’s not the case. The dealers will mark the price up with diddly-boom dealer installed options (floor mats, mudguards, undercoat, paint protection…) to make up the difference. That’s what happened with the Prius when the tax credit was still available. Now that gas prices have gone up, they’re doing more of it.

    A tax credit counts directly against your taxes. A tax deduction reduces your adjusted gross income, for tax purposes.


  7. 7
    Johann

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:11 pm)

    I agree Grant. Let’s also go further and get rid of the federal income tax which we could almost do if we roll back the federal budget to Y2K budget…and with a little more trimming we could definitely get rid of it. Heck, if you get rid of the corrupt IRS and the Federal Reserve (which has limited Federal oversight and questionable reserves) then this union would be so much more prosperous and we wouldn’t need any stinking tax credits which makes us feel like $2 hookers.


  8. 8
    KUD

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:12 pm)

    That is great, as long as the Volt isn’t going up $7500

    NPNS =D-


  9. 9
    KUD

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:14 pm)

    # 4
    Jack Riggins

    If you do not run into the Alternate minimum Tax tables you would get $300 + $7500


  10. 10
    Mike D

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:16 pm)

    I’m actually quite excited about that. Looks like it really will be a $30,000 car! This credit really throws off the balance between “this car is worth it” or not, in the favor of it being worth it of course.

    So I pay $30,000. I keep the Volt for 10 years (which isn’t that long, only until the WARRANTY expires, if all goes well i’ll keep it 15 or 20 years, with a 20-25 mile EV range still). Compared to the 25 MPG, 15,000 mile a year car i have now, with gas at $3.75 (kind of low right now!) i’ll be saving $2250 a year in gas. Assuming gas prices DON’T EVEN GO UP, 10 years of gas savings will equal $22,500! So you’re still $8500 in the hole, but how much is your Volt going to be worth in 10 years? Still has probably half of its original electric range, and still gets 50 MPG after that, i honestly think a 10 year Volt’s resale value would be right around $8500!

    Which would net you a Grand Total 10 year cost of ownership to ONLY the cost of car insurance, if you take into account the gas savings.


  11. 11
    Jeff M

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:18 pm)

    Lyle wrote: “Chevy Volt Now $7500 Less”…

    That’s misleading…. we all know how this works…. GM will charge more for the Volt than they would have otherwise so the consumer won’t see a price $7,500 less than they would have otherwise.

    I haven’t seen the language of the tax credit, but it sounds like GM is being rewarded for having a larger “raw” kwh pack rating… even though they only use 50% of the packs capacity. So if another vehicle used EnerDel’s packs where they use 95% of the packs capacity, they are penalized with a smaller tax credit.

    In addition basing the credit on the size of the battery pack (raw or usable) rewards automakers for building bigger and heavier hybrids even if they get relatively poor fuel or energy (in case of plugins) economy.

    The tax credit should have, for plug-ins, based on it’s battery only range (for the Volt 40 miles). In any case, this bailout package was so full of pork, never mind the huge cost of the financial system bailout itself, that this tax credit is just small fries in comparison, and I’d still prefer to see any tax credit promoting EV’s than to bail out wall street which would have worked itself out (look at the competing private industry bid for Wacovia as to how free markets should work).


  12. 12
    JEC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:20 pm)

    GM List price w/o tax credit: $41,999.00
    GM List price with tax credit: $49,499 .00

    Your price: $41,999.00

    Owning a Volt, priceless…well almost :)


  13. 13
    jan

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:22 pm)

    It’s a step in the right direction. Will our waiting list be honored though.


  14. 14
    JonP

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:22 pm)

    Like i said Getting closer to 30K everyday!! Even at 35K this car is still a game changer.

    Now bring out all the “credit’s gonna get eaten up by GM & the dealer” Guys. This should be fun!

    If they price the Volt @ 35-37K it will be the most popular, revolutionary car since the model T!!

    PS the bailout sucks, but at least now i’m eating from the pig troff too!


  15. 15
    Rob

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:27 pm)

    #6 Bob

    I’m afraid ANY car manufacturer’s HQ will tell you (and with a straight face, too) that its dealers are free to set the price of the vehicles they sell: something having to do with the “law of supply and demand.”

    Look, some car dealers are unscrupulous, while others are not. When I purchased my Prius in January 2006, I certainly paid sticker, but not a penny more.


  16. 16
    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:29 pm)

    If GM gets to market the fustest with the mostest, they get to pocket the $7,500 by selling higher – the buyer gets his inflated price rebated.

    If there are other players, the market may hold the prices down providing there is ample supply of electric vehicles to choose from. Then the tax credit will really do something for the purchaser.

    This is a stimulus that is entirely unneeded to encourage a market. It is a big boon to GM if they can sell their whole production close to half a billion.


  17. 17
    Grant

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:32 pm)

    Don’t worry, everybody, GM will NOT be pumping the price up. They can’t. First off, they would be quickly accused of violating the whole point of both the tax credit and the acts to boost alternate transport, that is, to get as many of these vehicles on the road as soon as possible (didn’t anyone notice the unusually high numbers of vehicles involved? WAY more then any of the original hybrids!). As well, they are depending on future Volt generations to save the company, and that won’t happen unless they can get the first non-profitable generation out the door for real world testing and improvements fast, just like the older computers.

    The Volt will actually be quite competitive in my area, NC where a Prius is running about 28,000, and can not do gas-free driving at all.


  18. 18
    brad

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:33 pm)

    I’m against the bailout bill, but I feel better about it due to the fact it was loaded with alternative energy legislation that was having a difficult time passing.

    Oh by the way, I’m still waiting for the (2) economic stimulus packages to start working????????

    too bad we didn’t use that money towards alternatives and reduce our (oil) funding that we send directly to terroists.


  19. 19
    Rick C

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:34 pm)

    I itemize my taxes so I wonder if that is applied against my deduction.


  20. 20
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:36 pm)

    I love it, GM is giving cars away to keep numbers up, their overall sales numbers are some of the lowest ever, as Statik pointed out their losing money on cars with all the rebates, but……….

    #6 Bob
    #11 Jeff M
    #12 JEC

    All think GM is going to mark this car up $7500! Wow i wish i had as much insight into the workings of GM as they do.

    JEC thinks the Volt will cost 49K, are you serious?

    Here’s what Rick Wagner has to say about the price of the Volt 2 Months ago:
    http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/08/18/1/part-one-of-a-look-at-gm-with-ceo-rick-wagoner
    Fast forward to 32:15 to hear his take.

    “It won’t be 50, i’d say mid to high 30′s” was his quote exactly!


  21. 21
    David

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:41 pm)

    The news is good. Many of us will want to be in on the cutting edge of a new technology like we were when we bought our first computer. The first production run of Volts will probably not be bargains — but I will pay extra to not to have to wait a few years for prices to decline as the technology matures. The $7,500 just makes it a little more feasible.


  22. 22
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:42 pm)

    To quote a character in Anchorman: “That’s GOOD NEWS!”

    The Volt will unquestionably sell well now, launching the type of product that will segue us off foreign oil and into alternative fuels.

    This whole package should be a great shot in the arm to the economy, and a sobering thought to Dems, who thought they could add more entitlement programs to the federal budget.

    The next administration should do nothing but focus on advancing water, food, shelter, energy and transportation policies for the nation as a whole. Each state should be looking at how to become energy independent from all other states (I’m talking to you, Florida.).


  23. 23
    DonC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:48 pm)

    Bad News: The price just went up
    Good News: There will be more Volts produced

    On balance it’s a great first step. Hopefully it will help move along the electrification of transportation. We are definitely NOT going to see 10K the first year. No way. GM’s issue was how to sell cars it might be losing money on. This will no longer be the case.


  24. 24
    Arch

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:50 pm)

  25. 25
    Steve

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:51 pm)

    Tells me a couple of things. One of them is even in a financial crisis Congress can’t manage to focus on the main issue. Isn’t there a difference between compromise and “Let’s make a deal” ?

    Since the car is still 2 years away, MAYBE it will be a $7500.00 rebate. Things have another two years to change.

    This increases the odds that I might decide to buy one, but I still don’t know the bottom line. Encouraging news, I guess. Why isn’t it part of an energy bill though?


  26. 26
    Bob

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:53 pm)

    The biggest problem with the bailout bill is that it doesn’t hurt the shareholder equity. This creates moral hazard. Shareholders will still encourage risky behavior because they get the profits, and the public takes the loss. If the shareholders were to take a hit, they would encourage a bit more caution in the executive suite.

    Warren Buffett pointed the way with his investment in Goldman Sachs, but nobody really paid attention.

    When all our dollars turn into not-very-good toilet paper, we’ll at least have our electric cars. No, wait, the batteries are made in (China? Korea? Japan? Germany?)


  27. [...] Souce: GM-Volt [...]


  28. 28
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:55 pm)

    Steve,

    As Bernacke will tell you, the Great Depression was the result of the unavailability of capital / credit. These steps will keep loans flowing to those who qualify, which will in turn help autos and homes to sell, which will revitalize our economy.

    The bonus are the tax breaks for hybrids and renewable energy providers, which will help keep capital / credit in the US, maintaining our economy, and not the economies of Russia, Iran, Venezuela and other hostile nations.


  29. 29
    Jack

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:56 pm)

    I’m thinking of buying an electrical motocycle/scooter… too bad this bill doesn’t cover any tax break for that.


  30. 30
    jabroni

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:57 pm)

    I would bet that GM will now price the Volt at around 45K which makes our sales price about 37.5K. What GM SHOULD do is sell it for 37.5K and let us buy for 30K.

    Uncle Sam has no money. This will be another trillion added to the federal deficit causing inflation (of the money supply since the Fed creates money out of thin air) and the value of our dollar bill to drop. This bill really sucks.


  31. 31
    Schanie

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:57 pm)

    If it’s for plug-in electric vehicles, not just plug-in hybrids, it means you could get Tesla’s 2010 high-end all-electric luxury sedan for $52k or so. That could make it pretty popular.


  32. 32
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:02 pm)

    #20 JonP Says: “It won’t be 50, i’d say mid to high 30’s” was his quote exactly!
    ————————————————————————————-
    Yes!

    For all the people who suspect that GM will now raise prices way over $40K, I have a different theory.

    I think GM wanted the final price of the Volt to be $30K all along, but they wanted at big tax credit from congress, so they started taking about numbers up to $40K or more. Then when the politicians started talking $5K-$7K tax credits, GM’s CEO started saying mid-to-high $30′s. Now that the tax credit is finalized at $7.5K, I’ll bet GM sets the Volt sticker price at $37,499, or $29,999 after the tax credit.

    In addition, my bet is that GM will take steps to discourage initial price gouging by dealers. They want the Volt launch to be a BIG DEAL, so they don’t want any bad press from dealer price gouging.

    But as always, my theory could be wrong. We can only hope…


  33. 33
    MC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:07 pm)

    #25 Steve: “Why isn’t it part of an energy bill though?”

    As it turns out the Constitution says any revenue bills (aka tax) must start in the House. So, from what I see, the Senate actually added the bailout stuff to the renewable energy tax incentives bill (which they already got from the House) so they could vote on that instead of waiting for the House to try again to send something new…


  34. 34
    Tim

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:07 pm)

    They will probably change the deal so you have to lease them. Then when your lease is up, they will take it away from you and crush it. Sound familiar?


  35. 35
    Guy Incognito

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:09 pm)

    I find the 4th paragraph of this article disturbing….
    Essentially, only the first 437,500 Volt buyers will get the tax credit; this is a maximum number.
    The 437,501st buyer & all subsequent buyers after that will not get the tax credit.
    This is assuming, of course, that the tax credits would not be renewed upon their expiration.

    With the $25 billion the Big 3 has gotten, with the plug in tax credits, we as the consumer had better not see any kind of backsliding when it comes to dedication of the automakers to build serial plug-in hybrids.

    -Don’t tell us you can’t afford to build them, we just gave you $25 billion.
    -Don’t tell us that no one will want them, because that is patently false & we’ve passed tax credits for them.


  36. 36
    Hoochy Coochy

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:10 pm)

    Will this influence the Volt battery decision? Larger credit may make the more expensive (and better) A123 battery more viable.


  37. 37
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:10 pm)

    #32 Dave G

    Finally someone that sees this as more than an opportunity for GM to make money. This is the tip of the iceberg, they want to license this tech out to other makers, hard to do if your only selling 25k a year….
    There gonna sell this thing for 30K after rebates and sell as many as they can.

    As far as discouraging dealer markups your right on, they want to sell a lot of these cars, i wouldn’t be surprised to see a higher “dealer holdback” if dealers agree to sell it right at or $500.00 above invoice!


  38. 38
    Gas Electric Volt

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:11 pm)

    Breakeven cost on the Volt is $40k.

    Not sure why anyone would expect GM to sell it for less.

    GM has been quoted as saying they will not take a loss on this car…


  39. 39
    John C. Briggs

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:16 pm)

    When I purchased a Prius, it was under the same type of tax credit. I was supposed to get $3300. However, due to other deductions I had already taken, I was only able to get $800 of the credit. I think this is very misleading on the part of the government. If you say $3300, you should get $3300.

    So be a little suspicious of the $7500 tax credit.

    Regarding the price of the Volt, since the price has not been announced yet, you can be sure GM is thinking of a higher number now.

    When the tax credits were available for the Prius, people were attracted to buying it. As a result, discounting was reduced, and I had to pay “full sticker” price to get the car at all. So the tax credits effectively increased the price of the car by reducing the need for discounts. As a result, the consumer does not get all of the rebate, part of it goes to the manufacturer/dealer in the form of higher sales price.

    Supply and Demand.


  40. 40
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:16 pm)

    #38 Gas Electric

    Actually i asked bob lutz directly if they were willing to take a loss on the inital Volts like Toyota did on the prius, and he said yes.

    Don’t make me link to the Volt nation video……


  41. 41
    Paul

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:16 pm)

    But remember that if you are hit by the Alternative Minimum Tax, you are not eligible to take tax credits and that a tax credit only applies against tax that you owe. If you don’t owe $7500, you will not be able to use the entire credit.


  42. 42
    GerryD

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:17 pm)

    I’m not a huge fan of the tax credit, but the credit will help sway on-the-fence buyers that will drive up demand that will bring economies of scale that will bring lower prices……..that will lead to the eventual phase out of the credit. The good thing – it will advance the technology and the acceptance which is what I believe is the main goal of the Govt (use less oil!!!). This was successful with Solar tax credits in CA and NJ.


  43. 43
    DaV8or

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:18 pm)

    Don’t know about how good of news this is for the consumer. This is good news for the manufacturers and great news for the dealers. They will be now adding extra profit to the car. It was unfortunate that they passed this BEFORE GM announced pricing. Without any serious competition for the Volt in 2010/11 they can charge a lot for the folks here that are crying NPNS! No matter how we slice it, I suspect that this vehicle will cost us $40k.


  44. 44
    Allan

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:21 pm)

    I’m partucularly happy about the provision encouraging higher Kilo-wattage. Great motivation to make SUVs and trucks having large battery capacity!

    This may be the turning point in oil consumption!


  45. 45
    Rick Z

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:30 pm)

    In Canada, we may get “Green Shift” tax credits if the Liberals win the election on Oct. 14. or not have to pay as much of their proposed cabon tax. While they have not proposed a new tax on gasoline, I would expect to see less fuel-efficient vehicles subject to a new tax. The Conservative’s proposed one cent reduction in the tax on diesel fuel is something most consumers will never see and is just another gift to the oil companies because they raise and lower their prices by more than this on any given day.


  46. 46
    Ken

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:38 pm)

    Although the tax credit is good news here is my experience regarding the $3,000 tax credit I received when buying (originally my Honda Insight)

    1) All dealers gleefully announced the tax credit, but when pressed how to obtain it the credit, the dealer was at a loss as to how to proceed.
    2) The tax credit is actually given off your FUTURE taxes, so you still have to pay (generally) the full price of the vehicle at the Dealership
    3) The IRS has not made it generally known how to CORRECTLY obtain the tax credit. In my case, in order to obtain the tax credit (at all) you would have to know what line item to place the $3,000 credit (at that time it was line item 32), you HAD to write “CLEAN FUEL” above that line with the “-3,000″ amount.
    ***If you failed to perform all three tasks on the correct line you DID NOT GET THE CREDIT!**

    So, bottom line, let’s see how difficult the IRS makes it to actually get the $7,500 credit.


  47. 47
    Lew

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:41 pm)

    Remember also that some other OEMs are coming out with plug-in hybrids and some all electric cars in the next few years.


  48. 48
    Dave B

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:42 pm)

    The problem is the dealers and GM are going to see these as an excuse to gouge the average Joe. They’ll say it’s an excuse to price the Volt at $49,999. If you don’t receive the credit at the end of the day (year), it’ll be YOUR FAULT for failing to read the fine print.

    This is not very reassuring…


  49. 49
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:42 pm)

    #38 Gas Electric Volt Says: “Break even cost on the Volt is $40k… GM has been quoted as saying they will not take a loss on this car…”
    ————————————————————————————-
    GM has also said many other things as well. For example, GM said:
    • the Volt will be priced in the mid-to-high 30′s.
    • they figured 2 batteries into the initial cost of the Volt.
    • there were already over a dozen cost improvements in the 2012 model year.
    • they would produce 10,000 Volts in the first year, and then quickly ramp up after that.

    So let’s say the 2011 model battery really does wear out after 5 years and they have to replace most of them. If they price the Volt at $37.5K, then they would lose $2.5K for maybe around 8000 vehicles. That would work out to a $20 million loss, which is not a lot. As a comparison, that’s less than 2% of what they’ve spent on Volt development already, and probably less than 1% of the total Volt development by 2010.

    The point is that GM can handle a small loss for the 2011 model year (which starts selling in Nov. 2010), as long as the 2012 model year is cost parity or profitable.


  50. 50
    Rob

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:46 pm)

    This is great!

    Though this will also mean GM can charge more for it so people can still aford it. So, the $7500 does not just go into the car buyers’ pockets!! In other words, if there was no tax incentive, GM would need to charge less in order to be able to sell the car.

    Would have been better if this was announced _after_ GM put a definite price tag on the car…


  51. 51
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:53 pm)

    #4 Jack Riggins Says: “I file my taxes for 2010 having paid in $5400 in Federal Income tax. My tax was actually $5100, so I was looking for a $300 refund. This is all before applying the tax credit.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Unfortunately, if your 1040 Tax Due line is only $5100, then I would say you probably can’t afford the Volt anyway. But if you did buy it, I assume you would get a $5400 refund, which means you don’t get the full credit.


  52. 52
    Stew

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:54 pm)

    # 32 Daveg

    I’m thinking along the same lines as you. GM Threw out several figures from 30′s to over 40 and sat back to listen to the chatter on forums like this to gauge what people will pay.

    Now knowing what the credit will be before they’ve announced the price, they can set the MSRP to be what people have been saying the most they will pay in forums like these!

    It will be, in my opinion, a ‘tail wagging the dog’ situation.

    Kind of like mentioning you have a coupon before you get the bill at some service centers. Don’t kid yourself, you are not getting a discount, other prices are adjusted up accordingly.


  53. 53
    Rob

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:04 pm)

    I need relief from all this financial talk: can someone Photoshop the finalized Volt design in a range of colors OTHER than metallic green?


  54. 54
    Frank B

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:14 pm)

    The real question is, $7,500 less that What!


  55. 55
    Jackson

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:17 pm)

    Johann (#7):

    (and anyone else who despises the current US income tax):

    http://www.fairtax.org


  56. 56
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:17 pm)

    Guys anyone making over 50K, paid in 7500K to the feds in federal tax at least. Unless ypur claiming multiple dependants(like more than 4). So you’ll be able to take advantage of the credit.

    Not to mention if your making under 50K, or under 80K and have 4 dependants you shouldn’t buy a Volt anyway. In my opinion that would be living way above your head.


  57. 57
    JEC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:17 pm)

    #20 JonP
    Here’s what Rick Wagner has to say about the price of the Volt 2 Months ago:
    “It won’t be 50, i’d say mid to high 30’s” was his quote exactly!

    JEC thinks the Volt will cost 49K, are you serious?
    =======================================
    Ok, lets say Ricky is actually correct, which I am not so confident about, but lets say for sake of argument he is. Then would this make you a little happier?

    The point is GM has been figuring in the tax credit from the beginning. NEVER ONCE has anyone, including Lutz or Wagner been willing to say their price did not include GM’s hoped for tax credit.

    GM List price w/o tax credit: $34,499.00
    GM List price with tax credit: $41,999 .00

    Your price: $34,499.00

    Owning a Volt, priceless…well almost :)


  58. 58
    Frank B

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:21 pm)

    One way it would work really well is, having the ability to assign your $7,500 credit to either the dealer or to GM making it an immediate deduction to the price you pay at the dealer.

    Many companies did that in the late 70′s when there was a solar credit. Many companies selling or leasing solar water heaters took the solar credit themselves and passed the savings along in lower prices to the consumer.

    Now That would Work!!


  59. 59
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:24 pm)

    LYLE,

    Now that we know what the tax credit is going to be I think it’s time for a new Poll.
    How about this.

    Considering That we now know that the Tax Credit will be $7500 for the Volt. Plus all we know about fuel/maintenance cost over the life of the car. What is the absolute most you will/can pay for a Volt before the Tax Credit?

    A. Less than 25K
    B. 25K – 30K
    C. 30K – 35K
    D. 35K – 40K
    E. 40K -45K
    F. More than 45K


  60. 60
    Drake

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:24 pm)

    $758 million.

    This may sound like a lot of money until the “big picture” is seen:

    $137,500,000 (cost of one F-22 Raptor fighter aircraft)
    $758,000,000 (cost of plug-in tax credit)
    $12,000,000,000 (cost of 1 air craft carrier battle group)
    $474,000,000,000 (cost of Iraq War to 12/07)
    $13,750,000,000,000 (U.S. 2007 GDP)

    Fact: If we weren’t tied to Middle Eastern oil supplies we could retire one of our carrier battle groups.

    Fact: This plug-in tax credit costs the same as 6 F-22 Raptor Aircraft.

    Fact: If we weren’t tied to Middle Eastern oil, we would not have invaded Iraq.

    Fact: This plug-in tax credit will help $billions stay in the U.S. economy, as opposed to leaving our economy for nations that do not have our best interest at heart.

    Fact: This tax credit is an investment that will pay for itself many times over.

    Fact: The size of this tax credit will not allow the poor to afford a plug-in vehicle.

    I can only hope our future president is more conceptual and able to see the big picture.


  61. 61
    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:29 pm)

    EDIT…timed out


  62. 62
    igotzzoom

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:31 pm)

    I’m not afraid of being gouged by a dealer for a Volt, because I refuse to pay over sticker. I will gladly pay the MSRP, but not a penny over. I guarantee you if you’re patient enough, you’ll be able to find a dealer that will sell one for sticker. Maybe not in the first 1-3 months, but 6 months out, you’ll be able to find someone willing to work with you.


  63. 63
    noel park

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:31 pm)

    I only hope that they can produce enough Volts so that we can all get one and claim the credit before others – Toyota, Nissan and Chrysler for a start – grab off too many of the first 250,000.

    I heard in the announcement that the bill had been signed some comment that it also contained some relief from the AMT for “middle class families” Does anyone know if such will help with the issue, often raised here, that the AMT will gobble up all or part of the credit?


  64. 64
    noel park

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:35 pm)

    #60 Drake:

    Amen brother, preach on!


  65. 65
    Jackson

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:36 pm)

    With everyone now on line with an upturned hat (including the Governator), the US Treasury has introduced a new currency:

    http://i36.tinypic.com/6f413d.jpg


  66. 66
    JIm in AR

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:40 pm)

    Terrific! I guess GM will be increasing the sticker price by $7,500. Gosh, I feel so much better.


  67. 67
    Cautious Fan

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:41 pm)

    #60 Drake

    How does wasted gov’t defense spending justify more wasted spending? Or is just our turn to feed at the public trough?

    How does this “investment” help us get off oil? GM was going to produce the Volt before the credit and I haven’t heard they’ll actually increase production rates. So the credit looks to me like it’s just a shooting straight into corporate profit. It won’t truly affect our oil consumption levels.

    I don’t want to move into politics with this but one of the presidential candidates suggested a battery competition like an X-Prize to advance battery tech. That makes better sense to me. This credit is just another corporate subsidy.


  68. 68
    Drake

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:50 pm)

    Cautious Fan #67 – Good questions there. Let me see if I can address them all:

    How does wasted gov’t defense spending justify more wasted spending? Or is just our turn to feed at the public trough?

    -The point here is that if we did not have to rely on Middle Eastern oil for the success of our country, we would not have to spend so much on defending (obtaining?) that oil WITH expensive defense spending. Require less oil, spend less on security it. By the way, America has no shortage of electricity. The last time I checked, we have ample natural gas, uranium and wind here (not to mention that we are the “Saudi Arabia of coal”). Why not use our home-grown energy sources for transportation?

    How does this “investment” help us get off oil? GM was going to produce the Volt before the credit and I haven’t heard they’ll actually increase production rates. So the credit looks to me like it’s just a shooting straight into corporate profit. It won’t truly affect our oil consumption levels.

    -If there was no Volt tax credit, fewer units would be sold. It’s basic economics. Also, for every Volt on the road, that is that much less oil that we have to fight (and spend) to secure.

    I don’t want to move into politics with this but one of the presidential candidates suggested a battery competition like an X-Prize to advance battery tech. That makes better sense to me. This credit is just another corporate subsidy.

    -Politics are very closely tied to energy independence, thus it is very hard to avoid politics when discussing this issue which, in my opinion, is the most important issue of our time. Again, basic economics: the less plug-ins cost, the more of them will be purchased and the more of them will be made, and the more money will be reinvested back into the technology making future versions of the vehicles even better.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:50 pm)

    #55 Jackson

    I’m with you. When one party is in congress they get tax credits for their buddies. When the other party gets in the credits move to new companies. The answer isn’t new politicians. The answer is to take away the lever congress uses to play these games.


  70. 70
    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:53 pm)

    I don’t think one thing has registered through to the masses here…and how this is different from the original piece. (+1 point to noel)

    ————————————————-

    ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—There shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this chapter for the taxable year an amount equal to the applicable amount with respect to each new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year.

    ‘‘(B) PHASEOUT PERIOD.—For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the total number of such new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles sold for use in the United States after December
    4 31, 2008, is at least 250,000.
    —————————————————
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Do you see it?

    “qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles sold for use in the United States ” It no longer says, ‘per manufacturer’. GM got the $7,500 they lobbied for but lost the bigger battle.

    This means your plug-in credits are going to be eaten up by the plug-in Prius first and then the Chrysler whatever as well…then the Volt.

    How many Volts are going to be on the road versues the Plug-In Prius and whatever Chrysler puts out…or the iMiev?

    10 to 1? Don’t count your rebate money just yet if you dont live in the ‘chosen states’ or take delivery by the end of 2011…it doesn’t look like its going to be there to me.

    Maybe the first 20K Volts get this…maybe.

    So GM didn’t get really get a 777 on their pull from the government…that got a free spin maybe.


  71. 71
    GmsAJoke

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:53 pm)

    I like your post and your blog, thanks for keeping us updated, BUT

    Anyone that thinks this lowers the price you are going to pay for a Volt is a FOOL. Its just like houses for the poor(wipes a tear from my eye). All this crap does is increase the price of the object. Sheeple believe in crap like this, learn to think for yourself and quit believing everything the MSM and the greedy talking heads tell you.

    Between the billion dollar give away to the auto companies and this so called lower the volt price tag crap this car has been paid for by the taxpayers. But will we get what we paid for? Hell no, now we have to buy it again if we want it in our driveway. Now guess who is getting paid twice for the car? The worthless upper management that can’t run a company without taking the taxpayers money……TWICE.


  72. 72
    Maggie

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:54 pm)

    HURRY UP GM!! I am so ready for my Volt!


  73. 73
    BluesBrian

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:54 pm)

    35. Guy Incognito
    only the first 437,500 Volt buyers will get the tax credit

    49. Dave G
    they (GM) would produce 10,000 Volts in the first year

    63. noel park
    Toyota, Nissan and Chrysler for a start – grab off too many of the first 250,000.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Let’s look at the bright side:
    This isn’t all bad news… when the tax credit is used up…
    1. congress (could) come up with a new tax credit plan.
    2. batteries (could) become cleaper as the manufacturing ramps up.
    3. we’ll have a half-a-million electric cars on the road.


  74. 74
    Bill L

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:54 pm)

    ‘lecrcicty isn’t free. and it’s coal, at least here in the east.
    has anybody figured cost of ownership,… or gas vs. electric?


  75. 75
    tBay

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:55 pm)

    #5
    Hopefully by the time the $7500 tax credit does start to phase out, GM will be ready to release the Volt 2.0 which should be considerably cheaper.
    So those of us who don’t get a Volt right away, won’t be screwed; we’ll be able to buy the 2nd Generation Volt at a much lower price that won’t need a tax credit to put it under $35k. I’m sure GM has plans to work with.


  76. 76
    host

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:55 pm)

    Seriously, how can so many not understand what a tax credit means????
    This doesn’t mean that the cost of the car is 7500 bucks less.
    its only that your taxable income is 7500 less.
    Therefore if you normally pay 25% of income in taxes (Middle class), you will only be getting 25% of 7500 back in your pocket ($1875). The richer you are the higher the tax bracket you have and the more money you get back…
    The title of this article is misleading and unprofessional.


  77. 77
    Duke Nukem

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:55 pm)

    That Volt is going to look really nice parked next to my Tesla Roadster. Yeah Baby.


  78. 78
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:56 pm)

    #67 Cautious Fan

    I think his point is if we spent more on supporting energy independence we could save alot on defense spending.

    Example:

    For what we spend in Iraq in 6 months the government could buy 1.5million Volts from GM @ 40K a piece. To me that would of been better than a loan, this way they get their operating capital (alot more than they got) and we get the Volt’s.

    Now it would probably take GM 5-6 soild years to make them but with a infux of 60Billion i think they could get it done. Assuming after year 1 we get a soild 150K per year out of them.
    The government could just give them away to low-income famalies, or have a lottery or whatever they come up with…….

    Point is this. GM would of had to hire alot of new employees, the battery and all part suppliers would have to hire alot of new people. The economies of scale would of come down like lightning, the price of a barrell of crude would plummet due to specualtion of reduced demand, industries that are forced to rely on gas/diesel would see increased profits due to the drop in crude, etc…….

    That’s how you get the economy fired up again. Not with buying 700 Billion in Crap dirivetives that are only going to lose value, while not even remotely addressing the root of the problem(housing forclosures).


  79. 79
    Rodney

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:57 pm)

    My carbon footprint is going down in 2010.


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    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:00 pm)

    Jeff M. # 11

    “That’s misleading…. we all know how this works…. GM will charge more for the Volt than they would have otherwise so the consumer won’t see a price $7,500 less than they would have otherwise.”

    *** *** ***

    I think you’re right. And for the first 10K units in 2011, good luck. Demand will be so high and supply so low that those buying them probably won’t even care about the deduction.


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    Nobama

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:02 pm)

    Thank you Sarah Palin. I know you spent many hours helping to get this legislation passed. And thank you JM for your tireless efforts.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:02 pm)

    #74 Bill

    “lecrcicty isn’t free. and it’s coal, at least here in the east.
    has anybody figured cost of ownership,… or gas vs. electric?”

    It kinda varies based on what you drive now, and how many miles per day you drive to & from work. Give me those numbers and i’ll give you a rough est. of how much you will save not including maintenance savings.


  83. 83
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:04 pm)

    #76 host Says: “Seriously, how can so many not understand what a tax credit means????
    This doesn’t mean that the cost of the car is 7500 bucks less.
    its only that your taxable income is 7500 less.”
    ————————————————————————————-
    What you’re describing is a tax deduction, which is taken off your taxable income.

    A tax credit is taken off the Tax Due line of your 1040. So if you normally get a refund, then your refund will be $7500 more.


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    MarkinWI

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:05 pm)

    #81 Nobama: Great sacasm! Made me smile. :-)

    As for the rest, I’ll wait until I see the sticker price GM puts on it before crying foul.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:07 pm)

    #78 JonP

    Fair point. Drake’s point maybe wasn’t against wasteful defense spending, but how reduced consumption will decrease the need for it.

    I still don’t see any benefits from this credit. If the Volt is so great, which I think it can be, it doesn’t need a subsidy. It makes economic sense on it’s own two feet, which is why GM started pursuing this before the gov’t jumped on the bandwagon. Will this subsidy actually create MORE jobs. Is GM going to increase their production rates as a result of the subsidy? I doubt it. I think you’re giving gov’t credit that smart engineers and workers deserve.

    I don’t see how gov’t creates jobs here. They tax one group, move the money someplace else, and claim they’ve created something. If I had kept my money to begin with I guarantee it’d get spent more efficiently then after passing through the bowels of bureacracy.


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    Richard

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:07 pm)

    The whole idea is to get people out of the guzzlers and into the newer technology. The price of the Volt seems to be getting up there; and I guess GM is hoping the Volt will compete for the high end Beamer and Lexus crowds money.. Not!

    Looks like the Volt isn’t going to be your average Joe Six-Pack’s family car and your gonna have to be making (or hopefully keep making) some serious coin to be able to afford one. The $7500 tax credit seems to perpetuate that notion with the big earners getting the best tax rebates because, as I understand it, that $7500 will come off their ‘marginal tax rate’…technically reducing the taxes of the well off, by ‘up to’ $7500.

    In Canada the ‘green rebates’ are for everyone, and are not tied to the buyers taxes or tax burden… not a lot, but here the Feds give back a flat $2000 if you buy any ‘green’ fuel efficient car like the SmartCar or Prius. Presumably the Volt would qualify as well. That makes the SmartCar, for example, costing as little as $15,000cdn.

    Enter the new Honda Insight, a completely revamped < $21,000 hybrid… a big difference from the cost of the Volt. Hypermilers were getting upwards of 150mpg out of the old Insights. That’s not real world driving, but 60 to 70mpg highway in the new 4 passenger Insight might well be.

    GM, bring down the price of the Volt and make it affordable or the Asians will take the market.


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    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:08 pm)

    #76 Host says:

    “Seriously, how can so many not understand what a tax credit means????
    This doesn’t mean that the cost of the car is 7500 bucks less”

    I’m not an accountant but i thought a “tax credit” was subtracted off of your total tax due at the end of the year.

    Example:
    Jon pays 15K to the feds throught the year out of his bi-weekly paycheck. He does his taxes at the end of the year and owes 12.5K, so he would usually get a 2500.00 check from the IRS in a “tax return check”. Since Jon bought a Volt he only owes 12.5K – 7.5K (credit for Volt) which is 4K. But he paid in 15K so he gets a check from the IRS for 11K as his tax return

    Guys is this wrong??


  88. 88
    Len

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:10 pm)

    No Plug No Credit. :)

    This could prove interesting. The first to market get the credit. You can bet everyone just moved their time table ahead to get as close to the front of the line as possible.

    The bailout does not address the fundamental problem of 5 to 10 thousand homes going into foreclosure every day (and all the homes on the market). It is a tempory feel good pretty bandaid. something like 2.2 trillion dollars worth of this junk was written (just by Goldman Sachs if I remember). As more of this paper goes bad, they will be back for more bailout money. I suspect they will not free up the credit markets, they know whats coming, it was just a last chance raid on the taxpayers before every one got on the same page. I think main street understands they have been had.


  89. 89
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:13 pm)

    #75 tBay Says: “Hopefully by the time the $7500 tax credit does start to phase out, GM will be ready to release the Volt 2.0 which should be considerably cheaper.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Actually, GM has said they already have over a dozen improvements for cost and performance in the 2012 model. It may be that the Volt just keeps getting a little better every year. Maybe GM has stolen a chapter from Toyota’s handbook. Wouldn’t it be great if GM could beat them at their own game?


  90. 90
    JonP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:16 pm)

    #85 cautious fan

    “Will this subsidy actually create MORE jobs. Is GM going to increase their production rates as a result of the subsidy”

    It worked for the Prius. The subsidy only broadens the demographic of people who can finacialy afford this vehicle. Which inturn will make them sell more, which inturn will make GM produce more, which inturn will make GM either divert some of there exsisting workforce or higher more people. Which inturn will speed up the economies of scale, which inturn will bring down the price of the volt, which inturn will broaden the demgraphic of people who can finacialy afford it………..

    see where i’m going with that.

    Personally i would of like the Gov to wait until after GM annouced a price, but they wanted to piggy back it onto this free for all bill. Plus i would like to see the credit be able to be claimed by the dealer allowing people to see instantaneous savings, i think it will make it easier for more people to afford. Getting financing for a car that is 30K is alot easier than a car for 40K. Regardless of what type of credit you get from the feds. Even if you get the credit you’ll still be paying a payment as if it never happened. Unless you refinance the loan and put the credit towards it.


  91. 91
    Rocky

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:16 pm)

    Very nice.

    The Volt used to look like something you’d gladly pay 40g’s for no matter what sort of tax break you might get.

    All the pseudo “aerodynamic” changes on a vehicle that only goes 20 miles each way… to and from… wherever? Great now it’s 33 thousand for a car that still looks like it’s worth 15 thousand.


  92. 92
    Jim I

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:17 pm)

    GM may not yet have enough exact info to put on paper what the selling price of the Volt will be, but I think it is time they announce how and where the first cars will be sold.

    Will there be any type of pre-sales deposit system put into place?

    Is it still going to be a limited geographical roll out?

    If it is a limited roll out area, will they be sold to customers who travel more than 100 miles to purchase a vehicle?

    If sales will be available nationwide, will GM put in place a method where we can contact our local Chevy dealers to let them know there is real interest in this vehicle, and that we want them to sign up to be an authorized Volt dealer?

    Will the GM-Volt.com list have ANY bearing on the first model year sales?

    I guess what I am saying is that if I have to wait another two years and 28 days, only to find out that there is no way I would be able to purchase a Volt until 2014, it would really kill the mood……..

    But in the mean time – Go GM – Go GM Volt Team!!

    But don’t forget – NPNS


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:17 pm)

    #87 JonP Says: “I’m not an accountant but i thought a “tax credit” was subtracted off of your total tax due at the end of the year.

    Guys is this wrong??”
    ————————————————————————————–
    No, you have it right. A tax credit is subtracted from your taxes. A tax deduction is subtracted from your income.


  94. 94
    Rocky

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:23 pm)

    What? No concept pic any more?


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    Mike

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:26 pm)

    Well now this makes the Volt MUCH more appealing. I would not have considered it for the $30,000 number I’ve seen. But $22,500 is much sweeter.


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    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:27 pm)

    Duke Nukem #77

    “That Volt is going to look really nice parked next to my Tesla Roadster.”

    *** *** ***

    So of the two Roadsters Tesla has delivered, Elon Musk has one and you have the other?


  97. 97
    Rocky

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:33 pm)

    Gm could have saved $$$$$ in R&D by putting a wind up key on it and we could engage it’s spring at night to our windmills.
    Better yet. It would’nt take much to paint it to look like a Dutch wooden shoe. Call it the “Clog”!!
    Cheap enough! Buy two! One for her and one for you! A pair of “Clogs”!
    The Volt is not a Volt any more… The “Jolt” is a JOKE!


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    Dave Klein

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:34 pm)

    WoW!!! This is Fantastic!!!
    I could not be happier.
    I would buy stock in GM now because it is gonna skyrocket the next couple of years.


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    Reese

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:34 pm)

    If the bottom line works out to $22,500. I will buy two as soon as available.


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    Cautious Fan

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:37 pm)

    #90 JonP

    If it truly did work for the Pious then I’d eat my words. But did the credits really help boost PRODUCTION of the vehicles, or would Toyota have produced the same number anyway. Did production drop when the credit went away? You can’t say subsidies lowers prices and increases demand because companies can pocket the subsidy.

    Fundamentally, I like electric cars and I think they’re good. I just think we’d all be better off if the gov’t stayed out of it. If you want to support an electric car, you should be free to do that. If you don’t want to support it, the gov’t shouldn’t steal your money and force you to.


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    Len

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:45 pm)

    How many Prius plug ins will they sell before the Volt makes it to market. Will the Hymotion add on make a regular Prius qualify. Curious minds want to know!


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    Derrick

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:45 pm)

    This is the kind of thing that drives me CRAZY about Federal Legislation! Why couldn’t they simply say that the amount of the tax credit is a certain fixed dollar amount regardless of price, or even a percentage of the purchase price of the vehicle? Why tie it to some convoluted kwh rating of the batteries!?!?!? This was a B.S. bill and it should NEVER have passed regardless of what happened to the economy! Maybe the economy should tank, then at least we could start with a clean slate instead of playing this tired old game! I’m sick of it, our congress just made this whole thing even WORSE, because now in addition to the $25B low interest loan the auto manufactures have just been gifted with this consumer tax credit which will simply be wiped out when they jack the price up $7500!!!


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:45 pm)

    Just because GM has gotten most of the publicity for its version of PHEVs doesn’t mean the Toyota/Honda/Nissan versions will be any less desirable. Toyota, after all, did a pretty good job with the Prius 2G. So if you don’t get your $7,500 tax credit on a Volt, maybe you’ll get it on a better, Japanese-nameplate car.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:48 pm)

    Dave G #89

    “Actually, GM has said they already have over a dozen improvements for cost and performance in the 2012 model. It may be that the Volt just keeps getting a little better every year”

    *** *** ***

    Lutz has already stated that one thing that could not be done for the 2010 Volt is “cost optimization”. That will have a significant effect on the cost of the Volt and with increased volume in 2011 may drop the price significantly. One of the improvements in 2011-2012 that I’m looking forwrd to is the use of super caps to buffer the battery and capture regen. braking.


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    Stew

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:48 pm)

    #95 Mike – “Well now this makes the Volt MUCH more appealing. I would not have considered it for the $30,000 number I’ve seen. But $22,500 is much sweeter.”

    ——————————–

    Mike has the right idea. Instead of GM doing the ‘expection management’ of the public by quoting figures of $40,000 for the Volt; we, the public, need to do the ‘expectation management’ of GM and let them know where they need to be with price.


  106. [...] Via GM-Volt [...]


  107. 107
    Todd

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:38 pm)

    One thing we have on our side and that’s Lyle. As the sale of the Volt gets closer and we hear GM saying, well the Volt will be $45K and then you get your tax credit, well that would be more than enough for a Re-Volt on GM. Lyle, I trust you’ll be the one leading the charge, letting GM know that this will not be acceptable at all. A Volt over $30~$32K is about where I’m willing to draw the line and look at other than GM products.


  108. 108
    Jack

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:46 pm)

    At first I was all excited about the Volt. I have solar panels and I produce more electricity than we use and the thought of our limited driving got me excited, I am 76 years old and on a fixed income but we manage to live very comfortably. I have a 2000 Buick with only 38,000 miles on it so I will probably just drive it for the rest of my life.


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    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:47 pm)

    #102 Derrick Says: (on the tax credit) “Why tie it to some convoluted kwh rating of the batteries!?!?!?”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Because the kwh rating of the battery has a direct relation to how much gas will be saved. It also has to do with the fact that batteries this large are a new piece of the puzzle and haven’t yet been used in any production volume.


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    Billy

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:47 pm)

    Even with the tax break the production Volt is too ugly to drive. I stopped waiting for that monstrosity and am very happy with my new BMW 135i.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:51 pm)

  112. 112
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:52 pm)

    #103 Ken Says: “Just because GM has gotten most of the publicity for its version of PHEVs doesn’t mean the Toyota/Honda/Nissan versions will be any less desirable. Toyota, after all, did a pretty good job with the Prius 2G. So if you don’t get your $7,500 tax credit on a Volt, maybe you’ll get it on a better, Japanese-nameplate car.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    The Toyota Prius is the best hybrid on the road. Toyota and Honda are great car companies. But I don’t see them doing anything significant with plug-ins. The only thing that’s been mentioned is a fleet test of a Prius plug-in in 2010. Note that Toyota was upset with this bill because their Prius plug-in plans didn’t even meet the minimum kWH for a any part of the tax credit.


  113. 113
    DonC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:01 pm)

    Sixty Minutes is doing a special on electric cars. The trailer features a Tesla but you have to believe the Volt will likewise make an appearance:

    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10058119-48.html?tag=mncol;posts


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    vincent

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:01 pm)

    For starters…your not gonna be first when it comes out. So stop belly aching about the price.

    Secondly, it will be at a lower cost and production ramped up by the time it’s widely available for all of us. Honestly I’ll wait 12 additional months for version 2.0

    Further, competition will bring it down and if your in the market for a $20,000 ride…the Cruze is very, very nice….and 40+ mpg is sweet and finally from GM.

    Sorry if this is a repeat…I did not read all previous 100+ posts.
    Nice deal on the tax deduction!
    Our US Government that all of us here just bailed out…should demand tax breaks for US made products ONLY!
    Let Japan (and I have nothing against our good friends) Fund their own tax breaks for their factories.
    Keep the money here people.
    No more free rides for non US manufacturers.


  115. 115
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:05 pm)

    #104 Grizzly Says: “Lutz has already stated that one thing that could not be done for the 2010 Volt is “cost optimization”. That will have a significant effect on the cost of the Volt and with increased volume in 2011 may drop the price significantly. One of the improvements in 2011-2012 that I’m looking forward to is the use of super caps to buffer the battery and capture regen. braking.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Just to be clear, the first Volt will be for the 2011 model year. These 2011 Volts will start selling in November of 2010. The second model of the Volt will be the 2012 model year.

    Yes, adding a large capacitor with the battery might help with instantaneous power both to and from the motor. But I do remember someone saying that it wouldn’t be that simple. He said the way capacitors behave, you wouldn’t be able to just add it in parallel with the battery. The cap might need it’s own management system.


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    Len

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:12 pm)

    If the battery is A123, it won’t need a capacitor. :)


  117. 117
    Bob

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:17 pm)

    Cool!
    My electric MOPAR will now be cheaper!
    Who cares about that ugly excuse for a Volt!!!


  118. 118
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:28 pm)

    Dave G #115

    “The cap might need it’s own management system.”

    *** *** ***

    That could be why they scrapped it for the first version.


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    HolidayInn

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:33 pm)

    If GM charges too much they will give away many more of those first 250,000 tax credits to Toyota, Honda and others. GM (and everyone else for that matter) has a strong incentive to bring these puppies to market early and price them low. Pricing it high is a double mistake (you increase your competitors’ use of tax credits and reduce your own), and everyone gets that.


  120. 120
    » GM Volt could get $7,500 tax credit

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:33 pm)

    [...] Here is GM-Volt.com’s announcement of the tax credit var disqus_url = ‘http://beutelevision.com/blog2/2008/10/03/gm-volt-could-get-7500-tax-credit/ [...]


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    DaveP

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:35 pm)

    $7500 tax credit is nothing to sneeze at. If CA coughs up some rebates as they did for the original electric vehicles the \Volt could wind up about the same price as the RAV4-EV, which would be pretty good for almost a decade later.


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    Estero

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:41 pm)

    Sorry, but I have to disagree with the majority here. This whole bailout is ‘sad’ from the standpoint that those responsibile for this mess will never held be held accountable.

    How can anyone look upon this ‘tax credit’ as being American. It is nothing more than a national lottery with the winners being the ‘fortunate few’ who choose or have the opportunity to buy early. Everyone one else with get the ‘short end of the stick’ as someone stated just the other day.

    But, of course I do agree with Lyle — long live the USA, GM, and the Chevy Volt.


  123. [...] the story. Keep in mind…while this sounds great…this article is from the GM Volt website… GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site


  124. 124
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:53 pm)

    #122 Estero Says: How can anyone look upon this ‘tax credit’ as being American. It is nothing more than a national lottery with the winners being the ‘fortunate few’ who choose or have the opportunity to buy early. Everyone one else with get the ’short end of the stick’ as someone stated just the other day.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Well, if it’s a lottery then there’s 250,000 winners plus some additional part of the credit for a year after that. In other words, it’s not just for the first 10,000 2011 model year Volts. It will probably go until 2014, maybe longer. So if you want a Volt, I don’t think you’ll be left out.


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    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:54 pm)

    Side note: GM announced they are shutting down the Moraine Plant early today…last day is Dec 23.(Trailblazer, Envoy, Saab 9-7x and Envoy Denali)

    http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2008/09/29/daily41.html?ana=yfcpc

    They elimated the second shift Tuesday (about 1,000 jobs), then once they got them out they immediately announced the axe for the other line…originally it was supposed to run through 2010.


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    David

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:00 pm)

    It seems that a major use of the electric energy will be used to heat or cool the Volt or any all-electric car. As strictly a novice opinion/idea it seems the less space to heat or cool, the less energy needed for this purpose. Would it be feasible to have removable Styrofoam blocks or an automated inflatable barrier available to place in the unused back seat area for those that seldom use the space? This could cut the cooled space in half.


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    David L

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:09 pm)

    I’m quoting myself from a February posting but …

    Currently the Canadian federal government offers a rebate of up to $2000 for fuel efficient vehicles. The BC provincial government offers a 50% reduction of the sales tax payable, up to a maximum of $1,000. I think a reduction or elimination of sales tax is a better option than a rebate as it does not influence car manufacturers and dealers to “artificially” inflate the sale price.

    Three years ago, I purchased a new Suzuki Aerio SX. At that time, the federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) was 7%, and the Provincial Sales Tax (PST) was 7%. The list price was about $21,000 and with delivery and various other charges – the price was about $22,500. Taxes (a total of 14%) added $3150 to the purchase price!

    Even with the currently reduced GST rate of 5%, new cars in BC have both GST plus PST added to the purchase price, for a combined rate of 12%. On a $35,000 Volt, 12% would be an additional $4200. I dearly hope that by 2011 – that the federal and provincial governments make EREV like the Volt “tax free”. I think that this would be much more effective than offering rebates.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:14 pm)

    Looks like the Congress and their constituents recognize the leadership of GM and the Volt electrification project. In little over two years GM has managed to completely turn around the image of a stodgy old school car company to one that is leading the electrification of transport. No small feat and worthy of great praise. With this GM-Volt website claiming some 40k members – it also seems destined to be a huge financial success.

    All in all a rather remarkable accomplishment for a public/private sector collaboration that makes a major contribution to Global Energy Independence. It IS a new world and the old players gonna have to get used to it!


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    MM42

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:31 pm)

    The same bill with the tax credit includes an adjustment to the AMT.

    “AMT Fix

    A “fix” or “patch” to the alternative minimum tax, or AMT, with the goal of minimizing the reach of the alternative levy (but not eliminating it) is a significant part of the tax provisions in the new law.

    In 2007, the AMT exemption, which largely determines who falls under the alternative system, was set at $44,350 for single individuals and $66,250 for married couples filing jointly, but for this year these amounts were set to revert to just $33,750 for individuals and $45,000 for married couples filing jointly. The new law sets the exemption amounts at $46,200 for individuals and$69,950 for joint filers for 2008.

    The measure also extends and liberalizes the ability to take personal tax credits against the AMT and mitigates the effects of AMT when it is triggered by “phantom income” from incentive stock options, through a refundable credit.

    “Overall, these measures are estimated to keep about 21 million taxpayers free of the clutches of the AMT for 2008, but what will happen in 2009 and subsequent years is still anybody’s guess,” said Luscombe. ”

    http://www.ibtimes.com/prnews/20081003/il-cch-bail-out.htm

    And would people who know nothing about taxes and economics please stop spouting malarkey? Thanks in advance.


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    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:32 pm)

    Posted in yesterday’s thread, but on topic here.

    Just had a BIG post gobbled up. arrrgh. It was on the Alternative energy bill, tacked on the end of the 700 billion bailout bill pp191-195.

    The key parts are:
    ‘‘(B) PHASEOUT PERIOD.—For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the total number of such new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles sold for use in the United States after December 31, 2008, is at least 250,000.

    The full credit is limited to the first 250,000 cars, then declines to zero over the next year.

    They MUST have a battery of more than 4KW and be recharged from an external source:

    The maximum credit itself is based upon weight, and for us says:
    …. ‘‘(A) $7,500, in the case of any new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds, blah blah blah.

    Note: The credit is built from a base of 2,500 (4KW) and then add $417.00 for each KW. In the case of the Volt the total would be $7,504. Amazing how GM managed to position right on the upper limit.

    /Straying into Statik’s territory with that last comment hehehe.

    The race is to get the biggest share of the 250,000 vehicles, as possible. I think GM will ramp up significantly in the second year if the bill stands! (now passed). Gaining market share, while the credits are in place, is critical, the race is on. Start your engines, I mean, charge your batteries lol.

    If you think that $417 per KW is good, the H2 subsidy went from $500 to $1,000, woo hoo.

    And in response to someone here, yes the tax credit, or part thereof, can be carried over to the next year if not all used.

    Off Topic, the $2,000 limit for residential solar/wind systems has been removed as well, and the period extended for another eight years.
    Big wind farm tax credits extended for another year.
    Solar extended as well, forget time period (there’s just so, so much).

    Special tax provisions for steel mills,
    ….
    blah, blah, blah.
    ….
    Special tax provisions for Coal EXPORTERS, WTF?

    /I mean nothing to see here, move along, please.

    Sorry about the large post, but it took hours to read & understand that bill.


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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:41 pm)

    Too bad I won’t be buying that car now that GM made it look like an Americanized Prius.

    GM has failed to win me over, yet again. I have four GM vehicles right now, and other than my trucks my GM cars will never be newer than 98.


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    Matthew

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:42 pm)

    Let’s see how “Middle America” they price the car. Last I checked, you can by a nice Mercedes Benz for $40g’s!

    I am on the wait list for the Volt, but if GM doesn’t price this car in the mid $20′s, I’m out. They can’t make up their loss on the American public on one vehicle.

    Wise up GM!


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    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:48 pm)

    Goodbye Matthew.


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    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:49 pm)

    Now that this has passed, I honestly expect to see SMART hop in and take a good chunk of this market/rebates.

    The car is a easy convert, they already have a fleet on the ground (non Lithium), with plans to get out 1,000 (lithium) in 2009 (around the world) and 10-15K/US production by 2012….that was pre rebate.

    With Zetsche on the record at 16,000 pounds at the London autoshow this year, that translates to around 26-27K US…and another 6K off….thats $20,000.

    BTW, SMART Ed lithium range is 150 miles on a assumed 12 kW pack.

    I can see this car ramping alot quicker now (their connection with Chrysler should benefit them as well). The SMART brand itself is really only enjoying great success in North America and alot of resource are being diverted to marketing it and producing them for here anyway…success is mostly due to it passing safety requirements and the lack of anything else in its ‘class’

    SMART ed would seem to draw the greatest benefit from this rebate. It has the lowest price structure due to it’s diminutive size and existing suitable platform (there is sufficient pack space already under the floor board) and would receive almost the fullest rebate.

    Even though it is only 2 seats, selling a 150 mile range electric vehicle for $19,999 is a easy sale. Heck I bought a regular SMART tdi in Canada, just for the 69.8 MPG (real world) as a commuter…too bad they stopped bringing the tdi over once Americans started getting theirs.

    Random SMART ed link from Paris, talks about range, production plans, etc. (pre rebate)
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4285575.html


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:59 pm)

    The $7500 tax credit is my money anyway. I might as well get it back.


  136. 136
    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:06 pm)

    #130 NZ David

    Sorry about the large post, but it took hours to read & understand that bill.

    —————
    No problem at all…have you seen some of my posts? Lol. I was trying to read through it all myself, but it has been a busy day.

    You referenced it, so I wanted to comment:
    —————
    Off Topic, the $2,000 limit for residential solar/wind systems has been removed as well, and the period extended for another eight years. Big wind farm tax credits extended for another year.
    Solar extended as well, forget time period (there’s just so, so much).
    —————-

    It was really nice to see they got the solar extended (8 YEARS!!!) inside this bill, seems like it gets neglected and has a tendency to run out for a couple months (I think it has happened 3 times in the last decade?), then they have to jam it through later when everyone in the industry starts to squawk (or die)…then they have to retain/reteach everybody…2 steps forward, 1 step back.

    The industry really needed policy certainty behind it.

    As I understand it, this bill will:

    1.) Extend for 8 years the 30-percent tax credit…HUGE
    2.) Kill the 2K cap $2,000, now creating a true 30-percent tax credit…HUGE
    3.) Allow AMTers to get this credit…HUGE
    4.) Allow for great utilization and capitalization of manufacters given the time length of enactment (stars Dec 31, 2008 of course)

    Just wanted to echo/expand your point…solar is kind of my first love for eco-friendless, or getting off oil, or gaining independence, or whatever the heck you want to call it.


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    DonC

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:08 pm)

    #134 Statik

    I’d imagine that Th!nk would be a better bet than Smart. People who drove the Th!nks said they were very good, and that was several generations ago.


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    Allan Lee

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:16 pm)

    aaaaww!!!


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    Dave G

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:17 pm)

    #126 David Says: “It seems that a major use of the electric energy will be used to heat or cool the Volt or any all-electric car. As strictly a novice opinion/idea it seems the less space to heat or cool, the less energy needed for this purpose. Would it be feasible to have removable Styrofoam blocks or an automated inflatable barrier available to place in the unused back seat area for those that seldom use the space? This could cut the cooled space in half.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    I don’t think it’s matter of space, it’s more a matter of glass and metal. In the summer, it’s a greenhouse. In the winter, is a really badly insulated house.

    Of the two, summer is probably worse, but electrical heating and cooling are not that big of a deal. Worst case, it looks like it will affect range by around 20%, so you may get only 32 miles per charge when it’s 115°F outside.


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    Jscott1000

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:24 pm)

    I didn’t read every post…but most you folks don’t have a clue how a tax credit works.

    A tax credit is a deal between the tax payer and the federal government at tax time. Not something you can “give” to the dealer or anyone else.

    If you don’t owe at least $7500 in taxes after all your deductions then you don’t get the full credit.

    If the Alternative Minimum Tax bites you and you owe more tax than the $7500 credit would allow then you don’t get the full credit. You might not get any credit.

    If you live outside the USA this is all moot and you get no credit.

    Your loan, (assuming you borrow money) is going to be based on the FULL PRICE.

    So this is great news for a sub-set of folks, but this is NOT a $7,500 discount off the price of the car.


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    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:35 pm)

    Thanks for the reply Statik, here, have a fish. lol.

    “We have to get our US business turned around in order for GM to succeed,” chief financial officer Fritz Henderson told reporters in Paris. “We must. There’s no other choice. And with the US as it stands, I think it’s going to be difficult for us.”

    /The understatement of the year, I think. JMHO.
    LJGTVWOTR


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    Fred

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:40 pm)

    I wouldn’t spend a penny on a American made piece of crap, I will buy a Honda Hybred or when they come out with their version of the plug-in, this Volt is way over priced and they will surely raise the price 7500.00 more.

    Best bet is to not buy it at all and watch the price drop.

    Fred, San Diego Ca.


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    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:40 pm)

    Jscott1000
    If you live outside the USA this is all moot and you get no credit.

    Well that seems fair, we won’t get any Volts either. I predict, until the 250 K target + one year is met, NO Volts will go out of the U.S.A.

    /Grits teeth.
    NPNS


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    Arthur Morrison

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:51 pm)

    GM took a big gamble with the Volt and now it is already starting to pay off big for it, the US economy and the planet. The race is on now against Toyota who I still feel could launch the plug-in Prius tomorrow if they want.

    Presumably this tax credit of $7,500 dollars would also apply to after market upgrades such as the Hymotion Li-ion pack for the Prius. If so then an existing Prius owner could upgrade for very little. I would like to know Hymotion’s take on this and if they can scale up and cope with the demand.

    Go Volt, go GM, go Michigan, go USA


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    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:03 pm)

    Estero #122

    “. This whole bailout is ’sad’ from the standpoint that those responsibile for this mess will never held be held accountable.”

    *** *** ***

    You are probably right, and now the tax payers are rewarding them for their greed and the congressional oversight for sleeping on the job.

    “It is nothing more than a national lottery with the winners being the ‘fortunate few’ who choose or have the opportunity to buy early. Everyone one else with get the ’short end of the stick’ as someone stated just the other day”

    *** *** ***

    I’m hoping this gets the ball rolling, the cost of the pack down, and by 3rd gen the Volt might actually have a reasonable price tag. If it does it’ll have served its purpose although I’m positive that everyone buying after #250K would love a credit.


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    WopOnTour

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:18 pm)

    #101 Len
    Actually it is GM that will have a “plug-in” hybid on the road before anyone else (of the major oems that is)
    The “plug-in” 2 mode Saturn VUE hybris is set for release in the spring a full YEAR before the expected delivery of the Prius plug-in!

    If the current schedule GM is commiting to continues as planned, the Volt will be less than 6 months behind the Prius PHEV.

    WOT


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    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:30 pm)

    Arthur.

    Nope, OEM’s only. Hymotion type products are excluded, as are DIY EV mods.

    Q: Does anyone know how big the battery will be for the PHEV Prius?
    Also this little gem tells me Toyota is nervous about the Volt.

    In addition to having lower fuel consumption and CO2 emissions than the current model, the next-generation Toyota Prius will be lot more sporty, said Toyota Great Britain managing director Miguel Fonseca at the Paris Auto Show.

    It will be cleaner, with CO2 emissions below 100g/km. We could have gone lower, but instead we have chosen to give the Prius better performance.
    —Miguel Fonseca

    Source:http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/next-gen-prius.html#more


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    laffin@luzers

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:31 pm)

    Ba Bye Mathew. Don’t let the door hit you in the a*s on your way out.


  149. [...] Vi­a GM-Vo­­lt [...]


  150. 150
    WopOnTour

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:34 pm)

    #125 static
    The demise of that S/T platform was ORIGINALLY going to coincide with th launch of the Lambdas (Acadia, Outlook, Enclave, Traverse) in the fall of 2007. That plant knew full well they were running on “borrowed time”

    However since sales of the Trailblazer and Envoy were still holding their own it was decided to keep the plant running contingent on the demand remaining stable. (Much like they did extending the “old” S/T platform – Blazer/Jimmy for nearly a full 3 years when the TrailbazerEnvoy appeared in 2002.)

    Had the sales of the S/T platform continued to hold it’s own that plant would still be making them. They had garnered numerous quality and productivity awards over the last 7 years.
    WOT


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    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:18 pm)

    #150 WopOnTour

    #125 static
    The demise of that S/T platform was ORIGINALLY going to coincide with th launch of the Lambdas (Acadia, Outlook, Enclave, Traverse) in the fall of 2007. That plant knew full well they were running on “borrowed time”

    However since sales of the Trailblazer and Envoy were still holding their own it was decided to keep the plant running contingent on the demand remaining stable. (Much like they did extending the “old” S/T platform – Blazer/Jimmy for nearly a full 3 years when the TrailbazerEnvoy appeared in 2002.)

    Had the sales of the S/T platform continued to hold it’s own that plant would still be making them. They had garnered numerous quality and productivity awards over the last 7 years.
    WOT

    ————————-

    That is all true…but I’m not sure how that relates to my post on today’s news?

    Back in June they announced the plants closure, saying that it would expire at the end of the model 2010s, but it could close earlier depending on the market.

    Original press: http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080905/BUSINESS02/809050293

    Today they indeed announced a earlier close on plant that was already on the block, thats all I meant.


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    Michael Thompson

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:02 pm)

    So 7500$ tax write-off at the end of the year.

    Realize that you still pay the 39,999 or whatever the car costs. Then, depending on when you buy the car, you get 7500$ back at the end of the year.

    Take 7500$ and subtract whatever you end up paying in interest until you get the money back after Tax time.

    Example: 7500$ borrowed for 12 months at 5% interest is $375.05 paid in interest.

    However, if everyone is smart, you will buy your vehicle closer to the end of the calendar year, such as November or December, when the 7500$ is borrowed for a shorter period of time.

    If you buy the car in December in cash, the interest for the 7500$ at 5% for 1 month is only $30.56. Of course, if you finance, you’d still have the other 30k’ish to finance. So we’re getting 0% on these too right? :-)

    Now my question is, can everyone take advantage of the tax credit? In other words, at what MAGI does the tax credit phase out? 50k for a single person? 60k? 70k?


  153. 153
    statik

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:13 pm)

    Something else I have noted this week that seems like a rather large deal…but under reported. The economic situation coupled with the loss of facility to borrow, seems to be pushing GM dealers off the edge of the cliff…and all at the exact same time.

    Not counting Heard’s 13 that went bankrupt, and just that I know of, I count at least 5 other Chev/GMC that went down ‘unexpectedly’ just this week:

    Courtesy Chev in Longwood, last friday
    Los Gatos, SF, Tuesday
    Good Chevrolt, Alameda, Tuesday
    Friendly Chev in Escalon, today
    Coloma GMC (Bay Area) Tuesday

    I wonder if there is some correlation between these events and Cerberus controlled GMAC cutting off leasing to consumers exactly two months ago and then perhaps ‘strategic reviewing’ dealership relationships last month…they cut off Bill Heard at the end of August and then they were done 30 days later. I wonder perhaps if this is not a situation affecting the whole chain that happens to be financed by GMAC (note: not all dealerships are)

    GMAC Cuts Credit To Some Bill Heard Dealerships, Aug 26th, 2008
    http://plantcity2.tbo.com/content/2008/aug/26/reports-gmac-discontinues-credit-some-bill-heard-c/

    –30 days later–

    Bill Heards Bankruptcy note from TD, September 24th, 2008
    http://tdw.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/print/DJONES/20080924/200809241713DOWJONESDJONLINE000889

    Something is going on…I just can’t put my finger on it. Maybe they just all happened to dive at the same time, I don’t know, just hypothesizing here. Seems a worse scenario if they are all just closing there doors ‘willy-nilly’

    It certainly is a ugly trend. Anyone have thoughts/guesses on it, inside scoop/local take?


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    Freemon Sandlewould

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:19 pm)

    Never mind these arrogant bastards who rule the nation like we are a herd of profitable cattle have killed the golden goose called capitalism. I think the odds of GM actually seeing 2010 just got alot lower. I handicap it at 20% odds now.

    We would have been better off had these fools kept hands off. But what are the odds of that when there is a chance to grab more cash for your cronies.


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    Freemon Sandlewould

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:21 pm)

    BTW: regarding car dealers……it is time to sell directly via the internet. What use is a dealer???? To over charge you for maintenance ? I avoid them like the clap!


  156. 156
    Michael Thompson

     

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    Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:23 pm)

    Looks like you’d want to be one of the first 50 or 60,000 people in order to get a tax credit.

    “Federal Tax Credits for Advanced Vehicles: On August 8, President Bush signed the comprehensive energy bill into law. Included were new tax credits for advanced vehicle technologies ranging from $250 to $3,400 depending on the vehicle’s level of fuel economy improvement. For a limited time, quality hybrids like the Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius or Ford Escape Hybrid will qualify for tax credits in the range of $1,700-$3,150. The tax credits will be available beginning on January 1, 2006 and will be available through December 31, 2010, though they will expire earlier for the most popular hybrids. The full tax credits will be available until a manufacturer reaches 60,000 vehicles sold (60,000 for Toyota, 60,000 for Ford, etc.). Once a manufacturer has sold 60,000 vehicles, a one-year “phase out” will begin after the next complete calendar quarter; 50% of the credit will be available for that manufacturer’s hybrids in the first two quarters of the phaseout period and 25% in the final two quarters. Preliminary IRS guidance on the tax credit can be found here.”

    “Lifting the 60,000 cap on the hybrid tax credit (bill): Senators Evan Bayh (D-IN), Joe Lieberman (D-CT), and Sam Brownback (R-KS) have introduced a broad bill (S. 2025) that would remove the cap on hybrid tax credits as part of a package to reduce domestic oil usage. Representative Jack Kingston (R-SC) and Elliot Engle (D-NY) introduced a similar bill (H.R. 4409) in the House. Representative Chris Shays (R-CT) introduced a broad ranging energy bill (H.R. 4384) that in addition to several incentives for renewable energy and energy efficiency across all energy sectors would remove the cap on hybrid tax credits. This bill was not voted on in the 109th Congress, and was NOT enacted.”

    FEDERAL INCOME TAX CREDITS:

    2008 Tax Credits

    * Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid — $1,300
    * Ford Escape 2WD Hybrid — $3,000
    * Ford Escape 4WD Hybrid — $2,200
    * Honda Civic Hybrid — $525 (phasing out to $0 by end of 2008)
    * Mazda Tribute 2WD Hybrid — $3,000
    * Mazda Tribute 4WD Hybrid — $2,200
    * Mercury Mariner 2WD Hybrid — $3,000
    * Mercury Mariner 4WD Hybrid — $2,200
    * Nissan Altima Hybrid — $2,350
    * Saturn Aura Hybrid — $1,300

    2007 Hybrid Models & 2007 Tax Credits

    * Chevrolet Silverado 2WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $250
    * Chevrolet Silverado 4WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $650
    * Ford Escape Hybrid 2WD — $2,600
    * Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD — $1,950
    * GMC Sierra 2WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $250
    * GMC Sierra 4WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $650
    * Honda Accord Hybrid AT — $1,300
    * Honda Accord Hybrid Navi AT — $1,300
    * Honda Civic Hybrid CVT — $2,100
    * Lexus GS 450h — $0
    * Lexus RX 400h 2WD and 4WD — $0
    * Mercury Mariner 4WD Hybrid — $1,950
    * Nissan Altima Hybrid — $2,350
    * Saturn Aura Hybrid — $1,300
    * Saturn Vue Green Line — $650
    * Toyota Camry Hybrid — $0
    * Toyota Prius — $0
    * Toyota Highlander Hybrid 2WD and 4WD — $0

    2006 Hybrid Models & 2006 Tax Credits

    * Chevrolet Silverado 2WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $250
    * Chevrolet Silverado 4WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $650
    * Ford Escape Hybrid (Front) 2WD — $2,600
    * Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD — $1,950
    * GMC Sierra 2WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $250
    * GMC Sierra 4WD Hybrid Pickup Truck — $650
    * Honda Accord Hybrid AT w/updated calibration and Navi AT w/updated calibration — $1,300**
    * Honda Civic Hybrid CVT — $2,100
    * Honda Insight CVT — $1,450
    * Lexus RX400h 2WD — $0
    * Lexus RX400h 4WD — $0
    * Mercury Mariner Hybrid 4WD — $1,950
    * Toyota Highlander 2WD Hybrid — $0
    * Toyota Highlander 4WD Hybrid — $0
    * Toyota Prius — $0

    * 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid AT and Navi AT without updated calibration qualify for a credit of $650.

    2005 Hybrid Models & 2005 Tax Credits

    * Ford Escape 2 WD Hybrid — $2,600
    * Ford Escape 4 WD Hybrid — $1,950
    * Honda Accord Hybrid AT and Navi AT — $650
    * Honda Civic Hybrid MT and CVT — $1,700
    * Honda Insight CVT — $1,450
    * Toyota Prius — $0

    * According to the IRS, this reflects a decrease in the credit amount as of Oct. 1, 2006, due to the manufacturers meeting quarterly sales of 60,000 quotas.

    ALSO CHECK YOUR STATE INCOME TAX CREDITS:

    EXAMPLE: PENNSYLVANIA: Waiver to pay vehicle registration for 5 years, and a 500$ credit. It isn’t much, but it helps somewhat.

    Hybrid Tax Rebate: The PA Department of Environmental Protection offers a rebate to Commonwealth residents who purchase or lease a new hybrid electric vehicle. The rebate amount is $500 and will be offered throughout the calendar year as long as funds are available. Rebates will be offered on a “first come, first served” basis. Rebate applications shall be submitted no later than six months after the purchase. For more information, the Rebate form and to see if your hybrid qualifies, please visit: http://www.depweb.state.pa.us/enintech/cwp/view.asp?a=1412&Q=502288&PM=1.

    Hybrid Registration Fee and Emissions Inspection Exemption (bill): HB 564 reenacts an expired rule that exempts hybrid electric, electric and zero-emission vehicles from the annual registration fee for five years. Similar to HB 309, it would also exempt hybrid electric vehicles that achieve an EPA rating of 40 or better mpg (city) from periodic emission inspection requirements. HB 564 was introduced and referred to committee 03/06/07.


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    WopOnTour

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:25 am)

    #153 static
    Good post!
    And I agree there’s more to this than mets the eye.Many of these dealers were already on a short corporate leash. But what better way to “cull the heard” than to pull their GMAC floorplan financing right from under them!
    As far as coverage, there’s numerous articles on the goings-on in the F&I sections of Automotive News
    WOT


  158. 158
    GXT

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:30 am)

    The fiscal irresponsibility of the US is truly stunning. Can’t pass a 700 Billion dollar bailout? Just add 150 Billion in tax cuts.

    And this from the country that has fought so hard against universal health care. The USA isn’t half the country it pretends to be.


  159. 159
    omegaman66

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:45 am)

    Everything the government touches turns to crap. It is so sad that free interprise was working just fine and then congress gets involved and screws up the banking system and then blames it on capitalism so that they get even more involved. (Involved mean control)

    Socialism is a term most americans view as a bad word and most of them are pushing the country further and further towards it. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.


  160. 160
    Angel Lozada

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:53 am)

    Look Gm has been pushing for this : ” For the Chevy Volt, that works out to $7500 per car, a number GM had lobbied for”. Now for how long who knows. My point is this, there’s a good reason why a final price tag was never stated. GM was counting on this, guess what folk – big business wins again. See if the bill wasn’t passed, well the price would be lower. But it passed so the price will be much higher- and of course you have marketing. GM -oh thank you so much -for shafting us again.Wow, this country is really going in the right direction. It’s amazing. Wake up folks. Big business gets bailed out – why because for years they mismanaged themselves. And to save the economy the Feds “must act quickly”. Like they didn’t see this coming, hello did all these businesses fail just this year alone. No , we all know that. So now because the Auto Industry fell dead on there face -they get bailed out . Oh yeah but they finally produced a plug in car -how creative of them. Like they too didn’t know gas prices would shoot up. Right. Good luck to everyone who purchase the “The Volt” , I think I’ll wait awhile till they work out all the kinks by 2012-2013. Just wait, other cars will come out the same time–see 2012 is a magic year for the entire Auto Industry. Just wait.


  161. 161
    Angel Lozada

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (1:03 am)

    GXT – your so right. This country will bail out big business, for the sake of the economy right. Well if the average person can’t pay there bills (for whatever reason -living beyond there means, hard times, lose of industry in there town) , whats happens? They loose everything. Can’t pay your on your home -Oh guess what goodbye – credit gets destroyed . Now I know, everyone needs to take responsibility for there own actions. But some out there, do everything in there power and still loose everything. But Big Business, well they can mismanage billions of dollars for years right. And when the shit hits the fan – well – lets bail them out for the sake of the economy. I think “We the People” make up this economy -Oh yeah “We the People” have to pay for it. I’d rather see that money go to “We the People” first. Is that such a hard concept to understand.


  162. 162
    Mark

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (1:53 am)

    How will this affect the price of the Volt in countries that are not the U.S? The Volt might be way too expensive in Canada, seeing how every car coming across the border is automatically twice as expensive..


  163. 163
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (1:58 am)

    hi Angel Lozada #160 & #161,

    I like your observations. And your psychic-like predicting. Your mention of people having their credit destroyed makes one wonder…

    The people of this world who have somehow weathered this last dozen years of big oil and big brother will still have a credit rating.

    The others, which are most of the worlds “middle class”, will no longer have buying leverage. They will be recycling goods (including cars) and working longer hours (for big business).

    The “survivors” will continue to reach higher than their means. And, in time, become trapped in the same credit bind.

    I am starting to think that the entire “rebate” plan is engineered as a continued leach on our public tax funds at a predetermined valve level. Why not? If the money is there to take, why not take it? If not directly then through crisis bail outs. Today the State Of California called for a $7 billion ‘emergency loan’ from the public tax bucket.

    And you made a very good point concerning the 2012 era being one of multiple vehicle/energy options. And that these vehicles will be priced out of reach. What will remain for a fiscally struggling public are discarded, high oil use, vehicles. Or smaller high maintenance vehicles, Civics with 200,000+ miles. Again, both money drainers.

    The Volt sticker price will speak volumes.

    no plug =D~ no sale


  164. [...] Souce: GM-Volt [...]


  165. [...] Via GM-Volt [...]


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    BRUCE

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (5:25 am)

    Let’s face this tax credit is BS. Its not a rebate and what happens if your return does not give you the rebate because you make too much or too little? Middle class and poor class can’t afford $50K. How many gallons of gas will it take to make up the difference from a same sized Honda Civic which is $30K less. Americans will pay more for a stunning car (which the Volt is not) because EMOTION sells cars!!
    I spoke to many people and the consensus is that if they have a choice of an electric Chrysler Minivan or the Volt guess who wins by a long shot. And for all those people who don’t think American quality is no good now (which they were in the past) then don’t make statements unless you know. I have had 5 and I am a consumer and they are just as good as a Lexus. Today’s car which is terrible on quality is the Mercedes-overpriced, nonquality high test only gas guzzler).
    Lyle: tell GM to sell the cars directly to consumers-on line without the dealer surcharges-which will happen-TOYOTA IN FLORIDA DOES IT-I WITNESSED IT. GET RID OF DEALERS AND HANGLING ON THE PRICE-THAT MAY DROP THE PRICE TOO!!


  167. [...] Source. [...]


  168. 168
    BRUCE

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (5:41 am)

    Edit the above-Toyota adds surcharges in Florida which I witnessed myself. Sell the cars on line and deal directly with GM.This will also drop the price.


  169. 169
    the real james

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:16 am)

    nice, the rescue plan works, at least for the volt. : )

    god bless the volt, god bless america, and death to oil!


  170. 170
    o.jeff

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:24 am)

    The $7,500 rebate and the $25 billion loan guarantees should help GM and the Volt a lot. … The only thing that might have helped more would have been to add one more sentence in the bailout bill:

    “Beginning immediately, the federal gasoline tax shall increase five cents per month for the next fifty months.”

    If we are serious about working toward a better future, we’d do it!


  171. 171
    Estero

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:40 am)

    Let me continue with my posting #122 when I said:

    How can anyone look upon this ‘tax credit’ as being American. It is nothing more than a national lottery with the winners being the ‘fortunate few’ who choose or have the opportunity to buy early. Everyone one else with get the ’short end of the stick’ as someone stated just the other day.
    _____

    The point I’m trying to make is 250,000 vehicles like the Volt is not going to do squat when it comes to getting rid of our dependence upon foreign oil. Likewise, I don’t believe 250,000 vehicles will do all that much to bring down the price of the Volt battery pack rumored to be $10,000. So, from my perspective this $7,500 tax credit is all politics. If it were otherwise, the timeframe would have been much longer than just 2-years.


  172. 172
    Norm

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:43 am)

    so does this mean you will raise the price even more?


  173. 173
    Andrew

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:06 am)

    I read a lot of complaining about the tax credit. I’m from Canada and we get taxed to death (not figurtively). So getting any tax credit would be nice. I wouldn’t even care if I got any tax credit anyway.

    Oh, by the way: I think they should have left the “grill” alone. The concept version looks better.


  174. 174
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:25 am)

    #171 Estero Says: “The point I’m trying to make is 250,000 vehicles like the Volt is not going to do squat when it comes to getting rid of our dependence upon foreign oil. Likewise, I don’t believe 250,000 vehicles will do all that much to bring down the price of the Volt battery pack rumored to be $10,000. So, from my perspective this $7,500 tax credit is all politics.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    If they only ever sell 250,000 E-REVs and it ends there, then you are right, it won’t do that much to end foreign oil. But the idea is to jump-start a much bigger E-REV and EV presence moving forward.

    Also, I disagree that 250,000 volume will not affect unit price. The rule of thumb for new technology like this is, every time the unit volume increases by a factor of 10, the unit price goes down by a factor of 2. GM has said the initial volume is only 10,000 Volts for the 2011 model year. So a unit volume of 100,000 should decrease the cost of the battery to $5K, and 1 million units should be $2.5K.


  175. 175
    spike

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:32 am)

    reply to Bob – you stated that the problem with the bailout was that “the Shareholders didn’t take a hit” obviously you don’t have much money invested or you would have been a part of the shareholders that have suffered a 4.5 trillion dollar loss so far this year. The day the dow dropped 777 points off the DJIA the shareholders lost 1.5 trillion dollars. The average investor has lost in excess of 20% of thier invested money in the past year. That means someone like me who has worked 50 plus years to accumulate a savings of $575k lost $115k
    in just the past year. BTW, the bailout did nothing to restore any of my losses. The bailout is targeted to relieve commercial credit markets, that means your employer can access credit lines so you may keep your job.
    VOLT- I hope we will all have the funds to take advantage of the tax credit.


  176. 176
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (8:10 am)

    I’ll be happy if the price after the tax credit comes to about $30,000-32,000. $28,000 would definitely make the Volt a hit. People would be clamoring for it. Long waiting lists for them though.

    Now …. if only the banks can get their “stuff” together so we can get decent car loan rates. Everyone better make sure they keep their credit rating numbers high for the next few years. Pay off those credit cards. No late payments on anything, etc. Start saving a little every month right now for the down payment.


  177. 177
    greg woulf

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (8:25 am)

    The first Volts will be $40k+, almost for sure. They could sell out of the first batch without tax credits at that price.

    The 2nd year will depend more on the market, but I’d guess at $38k. People will spend $31k for a car that saves them $2k a year, if it works and people are still buying cars, that’s my estimate.

    I hate pork, but if we have to have it, I’m glad this EV part of the bill oinked.


  178. 178
    Tim

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (8:31 am)

    sizzle…sizzle…sizzle…

    Sell the sizzle, not the high cholesterol PORK that giving American a financial heart-attack.

    Congress never cooked pork that they did NOT shove down OUR throats.

    $ TRILLIONS in new pork & pork by products every session.

    BOTH McCain (NeoCon-Fascist) & Obama (Democrat-Socialist) ignore their Constitutional Oath & embrace this Federal Totalitarianism!

    Want REAL change? YOU Change!

    Vote for ANY 3rd party & ARM YOURSELVES!


  179. 179
    JR

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (9:12 am)

    Lets be honest about this.
    This is really more of an opportunity for GM to make a higher profit than an incentive to purchase a plug-in hybrid. GM has been raking in huge profits on sport utility vehicles – upwards of 18k per vehicle for many years. Now that that cash cow is dead with higher fuel prices, they need to have that next highly profitable vehicle. Auto makers are in business for one reason – make profit, increase the stock price, make executives rich. They do not care about who can afford a particular vehicle as long as they can sell a targeted number at a targeted price. This government tax credit is really a bailout for the auto makers. In a perfect world, auto makers would build the most efficient vehicles possible and sell them at the lowest price possible, but then they would not be raking in the huge profits that Wall Street wants to see. Honda and Toyota have both indicated that they want their next version of hybrids to get higher fuel economy and be able to sell them at a lower cost than current models. Plug-in Hybrids such as the volt may be more efficient if you don’t need fuel for the first 40 miles, but keep in mind that the price of electricity is rising nationwide and will continue to rise as there is more demand from plug-ins. Only time will tell, how many people will pay over 30k for a plug-in car when you can still spend less than 20k for a fairly fuel efficient sedan.


  180. 180
    Brian

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (9:24 am)

    Does anyone know if this tax credit also includes conversions of gas engine cars to plug in?


  181. 181
    statik

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (9:41 am)

    #180 Brian

    Does anyone know if this tax credit also includes conversions of gas engine cars to plug in?
    ————————————————
    It does not. Originals only.


  182. 182
    Tom King

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (10:38 am)

    Well at first blush $7500 seems great until you realize thats just another $7500 for GM to jack up on the price. You watch … it will be way over $30K when it finally arrives … which won’t be fall 2010.

    I’m sorry but time and time again GM has failed to step up. Look at the position they are in RIGHT NOW. Truck heavy when the rest of the world is beating the snot out of them on the alternative fuels front.

    And before you say I’m just bad mouthing GM. I currently own two GM vehicles and my last two before that were GM. I like the trucks, Z06, and my wifes Cadi. NOT practical today. And 2011 is a long way away when the rest of the world is putting their money where there mouth is now. Perhaps I will soon to. :-( Come on GM … $50K+ for a dang hybrid Tahoe!!?? Put that drive train in the Avalance and I’ll buy it.


  183. 183
    Larry

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (10:55 am)

    GM is moving way too slow and finally are building cars “I want to buy” however, now I cant afford them. GET IT STRAIGHT MOST PEOPLE CANT AFFORD 30k FOR A CAR.
    I went to buy a Malibu last tuesday. They dealer Stillwater Motors was hung up on a $200 dollar price difference and would not move. Needless to say I walked. The sales manager just wanted to go home for the night. Glad to hear GM is selling so many cars they nolonger need my business after buying 7 GM cars in the last 15 years and having my cars serviced there also. I am now looking at Toyotas! And they will soon offer me a 0% loan.


  184. 184
    Michael Thompson

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (11:23 am)

    Nice post #178.

    “Want REAL change? YOU Change!

    Vote for ANY 3rd party & ARM YOURSELVES!”

    So true, so true.


  185. 185
    Cautious Fan

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (11:43 am)

    #126 David

    That is a new idea to me. I doubt the AC and heat use enough energy to make this economical but you never know. It would look a little silly. How about inflatable fairing for trucks. Small trucks have terrible aerodynamics. Probably too crazy but you never know.


  186. 186
    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:05 pm)

    How many arms do I need?


  187. 187
    Van

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:19 pm)

    I read the first few comments, then skipped down to the end so if my comment is redundant, sorry.

    I do not think GM will jack up the price because of the competition from the Prius, and other non plug in high mileage vehicles. Yes the tax credit will be partially offset by high prices, but hopeful we are talking about 10%. Lots of folks had thought the price would be about $37,500, and so if the market price comes in at less than $39,000, the tax credit will allow some of us on the bubble to buy in.

    And I expects folks that can afford to buy a $35,000 plus vehicle pay more than $7500 in federal income taxes.


  188. 188
    boB

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (12:57 pm)

    GREAT! Now don’t think you can RAISE the price by $7500 or even $5000 just because there is a tax credit. Tax Credits have nothing to do with your end. I expect the vehicle to still be $35K or less.


  189. 189
    J Man

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (1:40 pm)

    You people complain too much. Just be happy that some of the car companies are building the cars so that you can actually buy one. It could be the EV1 all over again where they make you lease it and then take them all back and crush them.


  190. 190
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (2:01 pm)

    Santa Monica Expo 09/26/08

    Front seat ~ screens: http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt_screens.jpg

    =D~


  191. 191
    nataraj

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (2:13 pm)

    For people talking about not getting the rebate because of hitting alternate minimum tax limits – this bill also increases AMT limits. That should help.

    BTW, I wonder how many plugins BYD and Mitsubishi will sell because of the tax.

    Volt itself we know will be sold in small numbers to start with. So, it will be priced to sell whatever they produce (taking the 7.5K tax credit into account) – so this 7.5K tax credit is essentially another aid to GM. Not reallly to consumers.


  192. 192
    Nelson

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (2:28 pm)

    We should permeate the internet with the NPNS mantra, in hopes that the auto industry will move up the release date for their plug-in vehicles.

    NPNS!


  193. 193
    dac122

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (2:45 pm)

    Since GM was lobbying for this credit BEFORE setting price I assume this will be a variable in setting their price.

    Sounds like the price just went up.


  194. 194
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (2:56 pm)

    #193 dac122 Says: “Since GM was lobbying for this credit BEFORE setting price I assume this will be a variable in setting their price.

    Sounds like the price just went up.”
    ————————————————————————————–
    I think GM wanted the final price of the Volt to be $30K all along, but they wanted a big tax credit from congress, so they started taking about numbers up to $40K or more. Then when the politicians started talking $5K-$7K tax credits, GM’s CEO started saying mid-to-high $30’s. Now that the tax credit is finalized at $7.5K, I’ll bet GM sets the Volt sticker price at $37,499, or $29,999 after the tax credit.

    In addition, my bet is that GM will take steps to discourage initial price gouging by dealers. They want the Volt launch to be a BIG DEAL, so they don’t want any bad press from dealer price gouging.

    But as always, my theory could be wrong. We can only hope…


  195. 195
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (3:21 pm)

    Where is the Obama / Palin ticket?

    =============
    Dave G #194 on price gouging.
    My understanding is that GM can’t control how the dealers set the price.
    I believe we had a dealer on here several months ago and I believe he said that. I wonder if anyone else remembers the same thing.

    I won’t be happy with price gouging, but I honestly do expect it to happen.
    It would be a shame.


  196. 196
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (3:27 pm)

    #171 Estero says,
    The point I’m trying to make is 250,000 vehicles like the Volt is not going to do squat when it comes to getting rid of our dependence upon foreign oil.

    ———–
    Yes. I see it the same way. It may take years and many other automakers making 250,000 EVs to make a difference. But as you know, we have to start somewhere.


  197. 197
    jgiralde

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (4:27 pm)

    I’m going to take one, i’m sold now how many cup holders does it have?


  198. 198
    carcus

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (4:39 pm)

    More than a sound bite, so give yourself 20 minutes to read and think about what’s happening here:

    For those of you that think a $700B bailout is necessary to save GM/ the country, etc. I urge voters and congressmen to think about how we got in this hole and and who’s leading us out.

    From the Miami Herald:
    Is it safe to trust a Wall Street veteran with a Wall Street bailout?

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/695796.html

    Those bonds, called mortgage-backed securities, are precisely the bad assets taxpayers will now be buying back from Paulson’s colleagues on Wall Street.
    During Paulson’s tenure, Goldman was not as big a player in issuing mortgage bonds as two other investment banks that have gone under this year, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers.
    But the 2005 annual report shows that Goldman was still a significant player. Its trading division, which included the mortgage bonds and complex financial instruments called derivatives, reported pre-tax earnings of more than $6.2 billion, up sharply from $3.5 billion in 2003.
    From July, 2002:
    “Goldman Sachs Releases New Mortgage-Backed Securities Valuation Framework; New model offers clients cutting edge tool for MBS pricing and relative value analytics.”

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Goldman+Sachs+Releases+New+Mortgage-Backed+Securities+Valuation…-a089485874

    junk Mortgages Under the Microscope

    http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/15/markets/junk_mortgages.fortune/index.htm


  199. 199
    DonC

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (5:57 pm)

    #198 Carcus

    This entire well spring of criticism of the rescue plan (note I’m not saying bailout) is overblown and largely fueled by misunderstanding. For example, so far the Treasury has done a super job negotiating. The AIG deal was very sweet for the Treasury, much better than what Berkshire got for its investment in Goldman. I don’t see any basis for criticism so far.

    On the merits, the $700B is not only not a waste of taxpayer money, it’s a heck of an investment. The Treasury can borrow at less than one percent. If it pays market prices for the loans it buys — which is the only pertinent issue — then it’s going to be getting assets that pay interest at rates between 12% to 20%. It shouldn’t take a genius to figure out that borrowing at 1% and lending at 15% is not exactly a recipe for losing money. In fact it’s the age old recipe for making money. It’s like being a bank on steroids.

    Of course some loans will default but there are physical assets underlying those loans and the high interest rates will more than make up for this. On balance taxpayers will make out very well from the market intervention. Very well. In fact so well that it will probably be able to fund all the alternative fuel programs including all those rebates for Volts.


  200. 200
    Roy Lowe

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:20 pm)

    GM never seens to learn,,, they could make a cheaper version of the volt for 15,000 that would sell,,,, but instead some foreign county will and GM will be looking for some more bailouts at tax payers expense.


  201. 201
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:45 pm)

    #195 Rashiid Amul Says: “Where is the Obama / Palin ticket?”
    ————————————————————————————
    You betcha…


  202. 202
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (6:53 pm)

    #195 Rashiid Amul Says: (on price gouging) “My understanding is that GM can’t control how the dealers set the price.”
    ————————————————————————————-
    Well I guess GM could sort of talk with the dealers and ask them not to gouge prices during the first month or two of the product launch. If that didn’t work, then I guess GM could decide not to ship any more Volts to dealerships they discover price gouging. GM is not totally without leverage. But this is all assuming that GM wants to avoid price gouging around the product launch to get better media coverage, which is just a theory.


  203. 203
    Ex Employee

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:02 pm)

    It is my sincere hope that GM file bankrupty ASAP, it is the most henious company in the world and it is only a matter of time for it to die. Go to hell and DIE NOW.

    Bejing, China,


  204. 204
    Ex Employee

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:07 pm)

    I used to work for GM in their disastrous EV1 project, I can tell you they are liers!


  205. 205
    Herm

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:08 pm)

    Could Toyota buy Hymotion A123 packs and put it in the Prius themselves?.. if they substract the cost of the nimh pack they use (and are in short supply of) then there is additional savings.

    This is something they could do today, and perhaps qualify for the tax credit. MSRP for the Prius is $22,000 plus $10,000 (or less) for the Hymotion battery.. and if they can get Hymotion to warranty the pack even better.


  206. 206
    Herm

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:12 pm)

  207. 207
    Dave G

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:35 pm)

    #205 Herm Says: “Could Toyota buy Hymotion A123 packs and put it in the Prius themselves?.. if they subtract the cost of the NiMH pack they use (and are in short supply of) then there is additional savings. This is something they could do today, and perhaps qualify for the tax credit…”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Not sure if you’ve heard, but Toyota has announced this for delivery around the same time as the Volt. They later said that may be just fleet testing only 1000 vehicles or so.

    Also, Toyota was unhappy that the original $7500 tax credit in the Senate bill had a minimum battery requirement that was higher than their plug-in Prius would be, so they got the Senate to change the bill. That’s lobbying for you…

    In any case, it’s important to realize that not all plug-ins will be alike. For example, with a typical yearly driving pattern of:
    • 30 days at 8 miles per day
    • 50 days at 16 miles per day
    • 240 days at 30 miles per day
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per day
    and assuming night time charging, the Toyota Prius Plug-In will get 70 MPG average, while the Volt will get 314 MPG average. So a true EV with a range extender will save a lot more gas that a converted parallel hybrid plug-in.


  208. 208
    Dave K.

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (7:49 pm)

    opinion from: edmunds

    The Chevy Volt is more than a flying car; it’s a rocket to the moon…times are tough, and we’re all tired of people in other countries laughing at us.

    Just as with the EV1, the 2011 Chevrolet Volt’s success will depend on its battery performance and the car’s price/value equation. And there’s a lot riding on all this. As GM’s Clarke told us recently, “I think the Volt will make back its investment — maybe not in the first generation but for sure in the second. Volt is probably the most powerful brand name in the GM portfolio today. Everybody who’s heard of the Volt can give you a description of what they think it is.”

    Just as with the GM EV1, the Chevrolet Volt’s biggest challenge is to be just as good as everybody expects it to be.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=131546


  209. 209
    Gary

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (8:02 pm)

    203 & 204 Ex Employee: “Bejing, (sic) China”… “I used to work for GM in their disastrous EV1 project, I can tell you they are liers!”

    Employees who were actually on an advanced engineering program surely would be better spellers than that. Can you please elaborate, rather than spewing verbal diarrhea?


  210. 210
    Grizzly

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (8:52 pm)

    P.D.F.T.T. !


  211. 211
    carcus

     

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    Oct 4th, 2008 (9:24 pm)

    #199 DonC,

    Did you take 20 minutes, . . .even 10 minutes, to read the Miami Herald or Money references?

    Did you stop to think that IF those mortgage securities would yield 12% to 20% the banks might want to hold on to them and not go bankrupt?

    Do you realize that when you say the treasury can borrow at 1% that means you and I (assuming you are a U.S. taxpayer) are loaning that money at 1%?

    If 1% return sounds acceptable, then please loan me all you’ve got.

    You are an idiot.


  212. 212
    NZDavid

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (6:43 am)

    Herm
    The Hymotion packs do NOT qualify for the tax credit, only OEM’s.


  213. 213
    tom harwick

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (7:51 am)

    Compared to the 25 MPG, 15,000 mile a year car i have now, with gas at $3.75 (kind of low right now!) i’ll be saving $2250 a year in gas. Assuming gas prices DON’T EVEN GO UP, 10 years of gas savings will equal $22,500!
    ——————————————————————————
    I think your numbers are overly optimistic. You are assuming zero energy cost to run your car. You still have to pay for the electricity (about $300 per year). Plus if you drive 15,000 miles per year (41 miles per day), you will be driving quite a few days over 40 miles, so you will have to buy gas as well.


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    tom harwick

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (8:37 am)

    #91 Rocky

    Very nice.

    The Volt used to look like something you’d gladly pay 40g’s for no matter what sort of tax break you might get.

    All the pseudo “aerodynamic” changes on a vehicle that only goes 20 miles each way… to and from… wherever? Great now it’s 33 thousand for a car that still looks like it’s worth 15 thousand.
    ———————————————————————————

    So the shape into which the sheet metal is bent makes a difference to you of $18,000?


  215. [...] Souce: GM-Volt [...]


  216. 216
    statik

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (11:24 am)

    #207 DaveG

    In any case, it’s important to realize that not all plug-ins will be alike. For example, with a typical yearly driving pattern of:
    • 30 days at 8 miles per day
    • 50 days at 16 miles per day
    • 240 days at 30 miles per day
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per day
    and assuming night time charging, the Toyota Prius Plug-In will get 70 MPG average, while the Volt will get 314 MPG average. So a true EV with a range extender will save a lot more gas that a converted parallel hybrid plug-in.

    ————————————————-

    For the record, I completely agree that your numbers are probably the closest pattern of the average driver in one year. I used to try and explain your model myself to the masses…as a reason why a pure electric vehicle was superior to a E-Rev already….didn’t go so well for me, lol.

    There seeme to be alot less resistance however, if you word it so that it impunes the viability of the Prius and helps the Volt…go figure.

    Right now all electric car planned for production go much farther than 60 miles. According to you and your handy graph, most people should own a pure EV (like the iMiev) and just drive their other car for those 3 long trips. (or if we are assuming they only own a $40,000 vehicle and nothing else…rent a car 3 times a year).

    Is this not so?

    For the record, the most popular reasons I got ‘back in the day’ were:

    A) people worry and need a redundant system
    B) 100 mile range anxiety
    (which to me are both weak sauce…I’m not afraid of boogey men in my closet at night either)

    Side note on the three 450 mile journeys, which has really nothing to do with your chart, just a observation. What ‘well off’ person (enought to afford a 40K car) is taking a econobox platform on 450 mile trek? I know I wouldn’t.

    I drove a Dodge Shadow from Toronto to Florida when I was very young…I learned my lesson, never again.
    ————————


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    J Man

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (4:04 pm)

    #183 Larry

    Do not blame GM for some a hole dealer. I am sure some other dealership would be more than happy to sell you the some comparable malibu.


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    J Man

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (4:17 pm)

    #200 Roy

    The loans that GM and the other car companies are getting have nothing to do with the 700B bailout just passed. The loans they are getting are from an older Energy Bill that the EPA never set standards for so the car companies could get the loans.

    #203/204 Ex Employee

    I bet you don’t have a problem getting that pension check every month, do you? I am sure they would be more than happy if you gave it back.


  219. 219
    Arty

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (4:31 pm)

    #199 “On balance taxpayers will make out very well from the market intervention. Very well. In fact so well that it will probably be able to fund all the alternative fuel programs including all those rebates for Volts.”

    This is correct. Not only does Treasury borrow at 1% it pays a highly leveraged cash amount on the dollar. Typical BK purchases pay 10-20 cents on the dollar (face value) of assets. That is what Treasury will do with the rescue – giving taxpayers a huge upside when the paper matures.

    Conservative estimates put the Treasury gross on this deal at $1.5 -2.0 Trillion more than doubling taxpayer’s money. Why the dalays and fighting – not just the Energy Bill earmarks, Congress is fighting over who will get to spend those windfall profits earned by Treasury on the “Bailout.”


  220. 220
    Jon

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (5:36 pm)

    Gas Electric Volt Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
    Breakeven cost on the Volt is $40k.
    Not sure why anyone would expect GM to sell it for less.
    GM has been quoted as saying they will not take a loss on this car…
    ————————————————————-

    Two false statements broken up by an opinion.


  221. 221
    N Riley

     

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    Oct 5th, 2008 (5:51 pm)

    Somehow I suspect the price of the Volt just climbed another $5,000 to $7,500. I just don’t see GM letting the consumer have that tax credit without them getting a large chunk of it. Call me pessimistic, but that is my opinion and I a sticking to it.


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    Sundry

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (1:03 am)

    N Riley, you are exactly right.

    GM will price it higher then discount it when the tax breaks expire. It is basic supply and demand, the rules of capitalism.


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    me

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (1:29 am)

    just saw the new Volt images…. maaan i’m probably not buying it… so not like the prototype, so ugly ;(


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    MeTwo

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (6:47 am)

    First off Tax Credit, doesnt that mean you can take it off your taxes? They are not giong to cut the cost of the car when you buy it, you will have to wait and take the credit on your taxes?

    If that is true it Totally sux, because you will still have financed that 7500 dollars and be paying interest on it and such, sigh.

    Next, this means all of the kids of the corprate big wigs all the people who dont need the 7500 dollar tax break will the the ones getting. Do you really think the little people are even going to have a shot at the first x number of volts that come off the line????


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    THOM

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (7:18 am)

    Government welfare!

    LIke usual, good for the large corporation (GM) at the taxpayers expense!

    If the volt is is as good as it is hyped, it will sell no problem @ $40K.


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    Henry Phish » Government Plug-In Tax Credit

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (7:25 am)

    [...] Along With Wall Street Bailout, Plug-in Car Tax Credit is Passed: Chevy Volt Now $7500 Less   [...]


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    david

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (9:37 am)

    will it have a/c? Im in houston area….if no a/c then it wont be a big seller.


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    Andrew V.

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (10:32 am)

    This is all fine and good. The problem is, GM has now announced a 10,000 unit first year limited run, and an initial cost hovering around the $40,000 mark versus the $27,000 everyone was expecting. Even with a $7,500 credit, it is now out of my price range.


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    KRO

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (11:14 am)

    The $7,500 credit is used on your tax return after your Taxable Income is derived and your Taxes due are calculated. The credit is deducted from Taxes Due. Be careful and ask how many cars have been sold. Phase outs don’t last very long and people find themselves getting a car after the 50% and 25% phase out is over.


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    Good Green Cars · PHEVs Get a Tax Break

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (1:53 pm)

    [...] per kilowatt hour for batteries greater than 4 kwh. This makes the Chevy Volt $7500 cheaper, as GM’s Volt blog was happy to point out. The credit will apply fully to the first 250,000 PHEVs sold, then will be [...]


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    Starcast

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (2:35 pm)

    I wish the Gov would just stay out of the free market! Government intervention leads to more Government intervention.


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    old man

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (6:55 pm)

    Regarding tax credits for forign cars Allow their phev cars the same persentege off their price as they allow ours to get in their country. And it needs to be based on electric drive distance. It seems to me that we are allways giving and never receiving from our trading partners.


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    skeptic

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (8:57 pm)

    Unfortunately, with the way the economy’s going, no one’s going to be able to secure a loan to buy one.. Hopefully things will turn around


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    No Dealers

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (9:34 pm)

    The problem with cars is the buying experience(s). Get rid of the gimmicks and the douche-bags that sell them. Set the price based on a respectable profit and if they don’t sell, lower them.


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    Kenneth M Kite

     

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    Oct 6th, 2008 (10:40 pm)

    Socialism for the Corporation.
    Capitalism for the worker.

    Next time you hear a Corporate Exec’ or their spokesperson talking about getting the government out of their business, remember these days!

    I so could use a lobbyist, to get me one of these deals. How much do you think our elected officials will pay for these new toys, and who will pay the electric bill? Remember they all had 30 years to get to this day (dragged along kicking and screaming) wasting our independence, quality of air, health, and competitive edge. I rode electric street cars all over Chicago at one time, who killed that concept? These players are not the good guys or the smart guys.
    Even a blind batter will hit the ball from time to time.


  236. [...] per kilowatt hour for batteries greater than 4 kwh. This makes the Chevy Volt $7500 cheaper, as GM’s Volt blog was happy to point out. The credit will apply fully to the first 250,000 PHEVs sold, then will be [...]


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    matt

     

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    Oct 7th, 2008 (9:11 am)

    Hos stupid for GM to promote their lobbying power. One reason the bail didn’t get approved the first time is for stupid deals like this. This has no business being on the bailout bill. I really wanted GM to survive, but these stupid games that maybe the have to play, shouldn’t be promoted. That’s the problem with this country. GM is a dying dinosaur. How can Tesla make an electric car before the biggest automaker? Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. The design of this car went from awesome to lame. Dumb. Get some fresh blood in that company please.


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    joe

     

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    Oct 7th, 2008 (3:17 pm)

    there’s a lot of great posts here, it’s nice to see so much interest and thought in issues regarding the Volt.
    I’d like to remind everyone, that first and foremost, GM needs to make a profit, and this means selling a lot of Volts, not just five or six thousand to electric car enthusiasts, but indeed many more than that. They also need to do this in the face of competition from Toyota, and others. Because the Prius is one of the closest true competitors for this particular market, GM price for the Volt will have to find a way to be competive with this proven product. Therefore,,,,,,,,, the tax credit is really, truly in the best interests of both GM, and the consumer. I am confident that GM price for the Volt (adjusted by the tax credit) will be VERY competetive with the Prius.


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    joe

     

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    Oct 7th, 2008 (3:29 pm)

    One of the things each of us can do, once we get our Volts, is to really let our neighbors, and freinds know how much we like them, and how they will save money by their fuel efficiency. Gas may come down for a while, but the truth is………..it will continue to go up.

    One more thing, the Volt needs to incorporate : since battery energy will be required to heat, or cool the vehicle, it just makes so much sense, that…………..the vehicle be insulated . I would expect that spray in foam insulation would be the logical choice, and shouldn’t add that much to the vehicle cost.

    Great to hear that the solar roof panels, are an optional package. This is fabulous. In the future, every car, I mean EVERY car will have a solar roof. Nanosolar’s technology is awesome.


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    N Riley

     

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    Oct 7th, 2008 (4:48 pm)

    Roof solar panels will be great for helping conserve battery power for better use. Let’s just keep them on top of the roof and keep the car looking good.


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    N Riley

     

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    Oct 7th, 2008 (4:51 pm)

    Somehow I believe the cost of the Volt has been raised by GM although they are not talking. That tax rebate may be shared by them and the purchaser. GM raises the price of the car by $4,000 to off-set some more of the cost and the purchaser gets to net $3,500 off the sticker price when he files his taxes. Better than most of us thought we would get, wasn’t it? Now tell the truth.


  242. [...] Via GM-Volt [...]


  243. [...] Via GM-Volt [...]


  244. [...] Source: GM-Volt [...]


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    No one saw this coming - Page 2 - YardLimits.com

     

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    Oct 12th, 2008 (9:57 pm)

    [...] part of Big Oil’s Worst Nightmare GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site Blog Archive Along With Wall Street Bailout, Plug-in Car Tax … __________________ always carry plenty to eat,plenty to read & a coat that makes a [...]


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    steve

     

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    Oct 17th, 2008 (7:53 am)

    When I first got on this list the Volt was supposed to be under 20,000.The pictures of what it was supposed to look like were stylish and basically an awesome looking car.But as usual GM has raised the price so far up above it original price and made the car so ugly compared to the prototype that I wouldnt buy one.Like always greed has taken over the American car company instead of common sense.As usual it will take a foreign car company to make what we need at a price we can afford.What a shame. That just only goes to show why our auto makers are no longer #1 in anything.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Oct 25th, 2008 (5:24 pm)

    Tax Credits are not always fair. Rebates are the most fair way to have the Volt more affordable. One provision that I would expect for even tax credits to come into play is that the vehicle will not cost more to eat up the intended “credit”. Let a tax credit be convertible to save GM on taxes when tax credits would not help me and a vast number of others who need the Volt, in the form of a rebate. Otherwise, many of us may be required to wait several years.
    For very small business people like me, whom must cut costs so low for the services we offer, there happens always to be so many required costs-of-doing business to remain competitive, that the net amount of deductions is always, always where the $7500 tax credit would do me/us little or no good at all.
    I teach auto shop techs how to perform L-1 Advanced Computer Systems Diagnostics, and, in my case, I will certainly need to own a Volt so that I can immediately begin to select the very best of the best technicians (of the 363 that I have already instructed in L-1 Advanced ICE systems), for pre-conditioning for training regarding the Volt’s very highly advanced systems, for even the more standardized procedures such as the Range-Extender services.
    While the Volt may indeed have a very extensive array of Warranties for the expected many years of service, the transitioning of the best techs to the category of the “Very Best” will actually take several years of relentless training as their businesses (management) are able to accommodate.
    High Voltage propulsion is by no means a “slam-dunk” as far as training is concerned. Yes, it may be true that non-ICE technically-minded individuals will need to be brought into the ICE Advanced L-1 Systems training program which I offer, in order to get them properly placed with the 350 or so shops which I expect to be advising by the 2014 to 2016 time frame.
    But for educators and small business people and most of the middle class, a tax credit leaves us out completely.
    Thanks for considering these facts.
    Dan Petit Austin, TX.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Dec 25th, 2008 (10:15 am)

    The best way for a $7500 tax credit to work for all of us is to have a highly-controlled set of methods by which an electronic certificate of the $7500 tax credit is resellable by me to another person or company/corporation. It could work like that HD broadcast air converter box “coupon” in the form of a credit card which the FCC sends out to those of us who needed to upgrade our large (but good ‘ol) TV’s for the new broadcast air HD format.
    Think of the new kinds of relationships which could come about from large companies to individuals directly in the spirit of coming together to afford us all a GM Volt. (I would always prefer a “snail-mail” old-fashioned-introduction-on-company-letterhead- paper-in-envelope from a company that would like to buy my certificate. It may get them my other kinds of business),

    “Dear Mr. Petit, We are a company that does [ this kind of ]
    business, and, if you are in the market to get a GM Volt, we would be interested in bidding on/purchasing your pending tax credit”.
    I think that would work if there were legislation to make the tax credit resellable.
    Thanks for considering my suggestion.
    Dan Petit Austin, TX.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (5:54 pm)

    While from one perspective, many of us would like a Volt yesterday, the advantage here for us all is being able to gradually learn about the new technologies in fortunately being well-informed by GM about their progress made, their new technological benchmarks.
    GM is in fact, educating the market about the technologies, which the motoring public has a need to learn about over that same time.
    Their tireless and relentless moves forward in our Worldwide-transition-era toward green/electric motoring, and as well, from my perspective, that one picture I was able to download with the view of the Volt’s drive train, (ICE generator, Battery Pack, etc,) is that we can have the needed time to strive to do all that we can to position ourselves to get one, (especially if what we drive now is only several years old).
    That one picture showing the Volt’s Battery and Range-Extender was worth more than a thousand technical words to me.
    These concepts are confirmed to me regarding the terrific progress GM is making for us all.
    How can I say that by looking at only one picture of the Volt?
    It is because GM designs are so extremely well known by heart by all us technicians, and, also as importantly for me, the extremely-highly gifted Electric-Vehicle electrical engineers whom I personally know right here in Austin, always give me the precise answer to any Electric Vehicle drive train question I may pose them.
    This will all wonderfully happen for the environment and for the Volt owner, (and everyone else it seems to me). But GM ‘s excellent standards in designing for all of us an entirely new kind of product require from all of us the patience they most certainly deserve for being the pioneers.
    Time ultimately will have passed “all too quickly”, and, the Volt will certainly be here as we become ready.


  250. [...] government will give you some of my money to buy yourself a new Volt.  They will give you $7,500 in [...]


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    Geronimo

     

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    Aug 29th, 2009 (1:04 am)

    Finally.

    The government gave away my tax money to help people buy Hummers, Ford Excursions, and other hulking gas guzzlers (a $100,000 tax break, which was then reduced to only $25,000 by those frugal Republicans):
    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3326593

    Now, I might get a $7,500 tax break to help launch a 21st century auto industry and reduce my country’s dependence on foreign oil.

    Not as good as a $25,000 tax break, but thank you just the same.