GM and Honda chose this week’s Paris Motor Show to debut new cars that are expected to sell in high volumes, the Chevy Cruze and the Honda Insight.
INSIGHT
The Insight is a low-cost hybrid. It uses an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system, which is actually a mild hybrid, in that the car never drives on electric-only power. Modelled after the original 2-seat Insight, this car is a 4-door, with exterior styling reminiscent of the Toyota Prius. Although pricing hasn’t been determined, it is expected to sell for less than $20,000 and should get the same fuel economy as the hybrid Civic (40 city | 45 hwy). Honda hopes to sell as many as 200,000 per year, and will launch it in North America in the Spring of 2009. It will use a 1.3 L normally aspirated engine which will give civic-like performance, although specs wont be released until January.
CRUZE
The Cruze is an original design based on GMs new global delta compact platform, upon which the Volt shall also be built. GM is leveraging this as a global car with a global platform, allowing for economies of scale and wordwide assembly. Pricing has not been announced either, and GM will not provide a number stating that it is “a competitive disadvantage to release specifics about new products too far in advance.” We could speculate it too might be priced under $20,000 since the current larger, well-equipped Malibu is. A hybrid option has not been announced, and per Chevrolet manager Ed Peper is not currently planned. The car will use a new 1.4 L turbocharged motor that should allow it to get more than 40 mpg and generate 140 hp. GM hopes to sell these at 300,000 per year and make it the first compact car they can actually generate profits from. Going on sale in Europe in Spring of 2009, it wont reach showrooms in North America until mid-2010.
There may be people who believe they are “making a statement” by driving the Insight because its a hybrid (albeit mild) and looks like it. But is that more important than styling and performance when actual efficiency and price are similar?
If you still cant get a Volt, which would you prefer and why?
Oct 2nd, 2008 (9:47 pm)I like them both. Give me a EV in 2010 and I will die a happy man.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (9:48 pm)I prefer a Volt!
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-1
Oct 2nd, 2008 (9:51 pm)Chevy Cruz looks like another cheap Chevy Cobalt or Cavalier, with little resale value after 3 years. If Insight is offered at the same price, I’ll take the Insight hands down. Besides, hatchback is more useful for a small care for lugging stuff.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (9:51 pm)I prefer to buy American (if there is such a thing).
At 6′4″ I have to rather let the car or truck pick me.
At 45 minutes commute, the vehicle ought to be smooth, quite, safe first and good looking second.
It would be a hard sell to many people if they are priced very close and the edge in mileage would go to Honda. Most people can get more off MSRP on the Chevy.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (9:59 pm)Which one will hit the showroom first? My understanding is that I’d have to wait almost until the Volt is available before the Cruze is ready.
I understand that it would help GM (and indirectly the Volt) to buy the Cruze, but if I’m looking for a bridge to a Volt, I’m not sure either car will be “it.” If I consider Honda, maybe a Fit would be preferable; I can get one of those tomorrow and get pretty good mileage if my old SL2 gets forcibly introduced to a truck (“crunch”).
If I can wait until the Cruze and/or Insight II are available, I’ve heard that there could also be a hybrid Fit; which I would very much prefer over either.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:00 pm)I’m gonna go right ahead and predict that the Cruze does not get 40 mpg in real-world conditions for most people. If it does I would love to know why similar or smaller cars by Chevy and other manufacturers basically don’t break 35. However it will be great if the Cruze does get such good mileage, or even close to such good mileage.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:05 pm)I can’t see myself buying either one of these cars. I want something electrified, so, I guess the Insight would be preferable. But, a Prius is looking a lot better – worth the extra bucks. By the time these are available, we’ll know a lot more about the value of the plug-in retrofits for the Prius, too. Really, if I’m looking in the bargain market to which these seem to be targeted, I’d just get something used.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:07 pm)Honda has a far superior product here, not only will the Insight be available over a year before the Cruze it actually looks like a progressive “I’m driving a hybrid” car.
Honda learned this lesson the hard way, hybrids that look like regular cars don’t sell.
That, and we all know when GM says “over 40 mpg” they really mean 35 city 41 hwy, which not as good as the 40/45 Insight numbers.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:12 pm)The current Cobalt design already looks dated. Only the SS model has the right “look” that market segment asks for. The new Cruze has sharper edges with crisp body lines that stand out nicely and even with the new ‘family style’ front grill, it is easy to see a line of aftermarket custom parts would sell well for it. And the Cruze interior is definitely a winner! The Honda has too much resemblance to the Prius and would probably not do well with aftermarket customizing. I believe the Cruze will be for the younger “tuner-generation” and the VOLT will focus on the middle-class working commuter crowd. Two seperate demographics.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:21 pm)Although I always prefer to buy a car that is built on this continent, the insight seems a bit more interesting to me but is stilll a no go. In either cases I’d miss the peppy start I get with my actual car and that I will surely get out of the the electric drive of the VOLT.
NPNS… Still
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:31 pm)I keep diggin’ the Cruz more and more. But the interior on the Insight looks real nice.
10th!!!
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:35 pm)Because I drive so much, I need MPG, so whichever gives me better highway mileage is what I’ll take.
Here’s what I’d really like. I’d like a Honda Accord or Civic DIESEL!! And I have a funny feeling that even an Accord diesel will get better MPG then either the Cruz or Insight II on the highway.
Please Honda, get us an Accord diesel for the US market!!
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:36 pm)I would prefer the next Generation Prius, due out Spring of 2009 also, it is supposed to get around 50 MPG, with improved acceleration. Time will tell.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (10:43 pm)I like the Honda prius for sure but as usual the interior is so japped out looking.
Why not a classy european interior? At least the Cruz tried.
Maybe the Honda prius folds into a robot or something?
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:11 pm)Give me the Cruz anytime any place, damn, give an American car, a Chevy even if it built in Mexico or Brazil or in the moon. I am tired of complaining how bad everything is going in this country, thus we go out and buy foreign car like if our cars have some sort of a disease. Stop complaining and just do it. Give me a Cruz with Bluetooth, nav and a bose system so I can do a cross-country road trip. I see you.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:11 pm)Since these cars both run on gas, I would choose the Honda. Their cars seem to last much longer:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/tt.jpg
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:14 pm)I think the Insight is uglier than the Prius. I just don’t understand this mentality that likes that notion so they can show the world how green they are. That would be like asking to make the Volt uglier so you can make a public statement. I like the way the Volt looks and I’m sure I’ll like how it performs, and I don’t care what anyone next to me in traffic thinks.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:19 pm)If the Cruze isn’t cheaper than the Insight, then i shake my head at GM.
If they’re priced close to the same…I’d probably go insight due to much much higher resale value, and lower cost of ownership. (less fuel, less engine wear, less brake ware because of hybrid system) oh AND there will be a government tax credit for buying it because its a hybrid, which there won’t be for a cruze.
I’d totally choose a Cruze hybrid over an Insight! Or a TURBO DIESEL cruze, or a TURBO DIESEL HYBRID cruze. Or a TURBO BIO-DIESEL HYBRID cruze. OR a TURBO BIO DIESEL HYBRID SUPER HAPPAY FUN cruze. The last option would really sell me.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:20 pm)For 20K the Cruze is an absolutely fantastic looking car.
With Turbo and I assume direct injection the Cruze will get 40 plus mpg. It’s not even close to a Cobalt.
I also have a newer civic coupe 2006. It never gets the stated 40mpg no matter how hard you try. 35-36 tops driving like a girl scout. Apples to Apples they beat the Honda Civic.
I’ll take the Chevy all day long. Quality is there now with all the new GM vehicles.
The interior of the Cruze is much nicer. Very good job GM.
Add your mild hybrid to the Cruze and smack Honda upside the head.
I would like to see a comparison with Cruze hybrid and Honda Hybrid. Two soooo different vehicles here. ICE and Hybrid…
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:23 pm)#17
I totally disagree with you man, totally.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:24 pm)Boy, Lyle is turning from a Volt fanboy to a generalized GM fanboy. Maybe if GM would fly me around and wine and dine me I’d be too
I’m with Van, I think I’d prefer to spend the extra cash and get a bigger Prius and gets better fuel economy. Though if Honda puts the same quality in their cars as they do their motorcycles, the Insight or other40-50mpg+ vehicles, I may consider them. I bought a 27 year old CX500D this year as my first bike and am impressed. Gets 47 mpg with such old technology and runs great! My next vehicle purchase may actually be a bigger and newer Honda (I think I like the Shadow).
And no Lyle, most folks aren’t buying a Prius or will buy the Insight because they are “trying to make a statement”. That’s code from the oil lobbies and the politicians in bed with them to belittle those looking for the best fuel economy. I’m sure the first Prius buyers may have been making a statement that they care about the environment when gas prices were still “cheap” but those days are long gone. The folks who will be buying a Volt are more likely at that price range to be making a statement.
What we really should be talking about is the great news that all the automakers are now getting in the game of making affordable and high fuel economy vehicles. We should applaud GM, Honda, and Toyota, not try to pit them against one another.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:39 pm)#11 crabjoe – “Because I drive so much, I need MPG, so whichever gives me better highway mileage is what I’ll take”
A few have modded their Civics by making them tear dropped shape and they get 70 mpg. Get a used Civic and with a bit of work you’re set.
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Oct 2nd, 2008 (11:46 pm)From what I’ve hear, the Cruze will actually be getting close to 50MPG. I think it will be a real winner for GM. I would prefer it hands-down to a Honda. Plus the Cruze will be made in the U.S., which I am all for!!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:13 am)I thought the Honda Insight was suppose to get ~60mpg? What happen? Reading 40/45mpg doesn’t sound as good.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:14 am)I like the looks of the Cruze over the Honda. If the Cruze is simply a Cobalt replacement with no hybrid parts, seems like it should start around $17K or $18K.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:53 am)The Cruze and the Insight aren’t in the same market segments.
The Cruze should be compared to the latest Hyundai models.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:57 am)2 Jack: “Chevy Cruz looks like another cheap Chevy Cobalt or Cavalier, with little resale value after 3 years.”
Looking at this web page…
http://allcarsallthetime.blogspot.com/2008/08/holy-cow-chevrolet-cruze-spyshot-is.html
…I don’t think so.
Cobalts and Cavaliers have depreciated rather fast because of sales to rental fleets. Once tens of thousands of 1- or 2-year old used Cavalier/Cobalt rental cars are dumped onto the used car market, that hammers down the value of other similar cars being sold by private individuals.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:03 am)well at half the cost of the Volt I’d have to go with the Cruze.
If the Cruze is less than 20k and the Volt is more than 40k and I only save approximately 2-3 dollars (assuming $3-4/gallon) per day by having a Volt it would take approximately (20000/2 or 20000/3) 6667-10000 days to obtain equality in cost.
My guess is that I will not have a Volt for 20-30 years. Sorry but it just doesn’t add up.
Even at $5/gallon (subtracting $1 dollar for the recharge cost) that is still approximately 5000 days (13.7 yrs) to make-up the cost of ownership.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:20 am)I was wondering how Honda was claiming to undercut the Prius by so much.
Now it makes sense… I didn’t realize that the hybrid powertrain in the new Insight was relatively unsophisticated and inexpensive like the current Malibu Hybrid (that is generally criticized for not getting much better fuel economy than a regular 4-cylinder Malibu) that can’t move the vehicle on electric power alone. I guess Honda gets its good fuel economy by using a tiny gas engine compared to the Malibu Hybrid (2.4 L versus 1.3 L).
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:26 am)“when actual efficiency and price are similar?”
I laugh when GM goes on about fuel economy and seems to focus on highway only. I expect that of them. But Lyle! Someone in your position surely can’t be that dense! Can you?
The current non-hybrid civic is rated at 25/36 and the hybrid 40/45. If GM is saying 40 MPG for the cruze you can be sure that is highway and the city will likely be just under 30. That means the Insight should get ~35% better fuel economy than the cruze in the city.
That isn’t “similar” at all.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:40 am)28. Gary,
Malibu 4AT: 22/30
Malibu 6AT: 22/33
Malibu Hybrid: 24/32
Civic 5AT 1.8L: 25/36
Civic Hybrid 1.3L: 40/45
The Insight/Civic’s hybrid system may be “unsophisticated”, but at least it manages to be simple and deliver results. In case you think the majority of the results come from decreased engine displacement, please refer to the Fit that has a 1.5L engine with a 5AT and gets “only” 28/35.
There is something to be said about being serious about hybrids and having some experience building them. GM has neither. Please don’t lump GM and Honda together again
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:43 am)22. nihaochan,
50MPG? What in the wide-world-of-cars would make you think that was even possible?
Also, please take this opportunity to research “depreciation”. You may save yourself thousands of dollars.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:44 am)Actually the NEW Malibu hybrid for 2009 gets much better millage than the 2008 version.
As for lumping Honda to GM
I think I would be insulted if I were GM
The new Acura TL is so fugly I saw one a the mall and the grill was super cheap and the paint had much more orange peal than the maibu and the Acura was 40k
Compair the new Acura TL to a CTS cadillac the Cadillac quality is so much better.
So again if you lump GM to Honda I would take the NEW gm products anyday.
Oh and BTW my neighbors have two honda cars with leaking power steering racks all over my driveway when they pull them in. So much for quality ..
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:34 am)Wouldn’t buy either.
No plug, no sale.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:03 am)Same as JS1219.
Just had a BIG post gobbled up. arrrgh. It was on the Alternative energy bill, tacked on the end of the 700 billion bailout bill pp191-195.
The key parts are:
‘‘(B) PHASEOUT PERIOD.—For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the total number of such new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles sold for use in the United States after December 31, 2008, is at least 250,000.
The full credit is limited to the first 250,000 cars, then declines to zero over the next year.
They MUST have a battery of more than 4KW and be recharged from an external source:
The maximum credit itself is based upon weight, and for us says:
‘‘(A) $7,500, in the case of any new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds, blah blah blah.
Note: The credit is built from a base of 2,500 (4KW) and then add $417.00 for each KW. In the case of the Volt the total would be $7,504. Amazing how GM managed to position right on the upper limit.
/Straying into Statik’s territory with that last comment hehehe.
The race is to get the biggest share of the 250,000 vehicles, as possible. I think GM will ramp up significantly in the second year if the bill stands!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:21 am)They are both pretty good looking IMHO
. But I prefer a volt so-far.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:25 am)I think Honda is going to win this one by default, since the Cruz is not even going to be available until a whole year after the Insight is.
I gotta wonder what GM is thinking, by not getting us these sorts of cars here, like yesterday; the Japs are going to eat their lunch- AGAIN!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:23 am)The Cruze is more attractive looking than the Insight.
But they both have an automatic transmission. I only drive standard.
I will wait for the Volt, which doesn’t have a transmission.
Also, and more to the point, No plug, no sale.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:34 am)I have always wondered how the HWY mpg is so much high for hybrid vs non-hybrid???? i would expect at great speeds the car needs to recharge the battery and would actually get worse fuel economy….
i think the EPA hwy test is too slow and does not reflect real highway driving and thats how these hybrids get better fuel economy. the battery has to recharge sometime, right?
i dont see how a hybrid over a 100 mile hwy trip at 65 mph can ever get better fuel economy than a turbo diesel. it just cant happen….
i really dont think you can compare hwy mpg of a cruze and hwy mpg of a hybrid. drive both for 100 miles non-stop at real hwy speeds and there is no way the hybrid can be better.
Lyle, can you look into this??
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:44 am)I agree with JS1219 #33 and the last paragraph of Rashiid #37:
What part of “No Plug – No Sale” do you not understand?
It is time to kick it into high gear, so to speak, and get real electric, E-REV’s and BEV’s on the road!!!
That is when I will sign a purchase agreement……….
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:58 am)Whatever happens with the Insight, the Cruze will be the comparison car for the Volt. Cruze/Volt will be the same size, shape, and generally meet the same needs as transportation.
So GM has created an awkward situation for itself, one where the Volt will not be seen as a special car in its own right, but rather a high-line model of the Cruze. I think the Volt will do OK because of its plug-in capability. However, if it has a markedly higher price as expected the Volt “upgrade” will be a tough sell to many customers. And, for sales people, the easier path will be to relax back to the Cruze.
(Possibly that is GM’s actual marketing plan: Come in to see the Volt, buy a Cruze. Personally I think it undersells the Volt to make its point of comparison a low-end economy car.)
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:58 am)I buy American cars. In a time when people are complaining about their money being transferred to Wall Street, why aren’t they equally dismayed about their money being transferred to Japan? Either way, it never gets back to you. I believe the Chevy will be made in GM’s Lordstown, Ohio facility. And it will use an engine made in the new Fint factory. It also will likely use a US-sourced transmission. So we are looking at a genuine (90% +) American car here. What an easy decision. Especially since a normally aspirated 1.3L with mild hybrid assist (the Honda) will drive like my kid’s tricycle compared to a turbocharged 1.4L (the C hevy). And, consistent with today’s GM’s products, the quality will be fairly comparable.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:00 am)Jake #5 says,
I’m gonna go right ahead and predict that the Cruze does not get 40 mpg in real-world conditions for most people. If it does I would love to know why similar or smaller cars by Chevy and other manufacturers basically don’t break 35. However it will be great if the Cruze does get such good mileage, or even close to such good mileage.
——
My 2002 Hyundai Elantra with 172,000 miles on it gets 39 MPG. Back when I was driving like a maniac, this same car with way less miles on it was getting 31 MPG. I’m not sure how they figure the MPG in these cars, but I would bet that individuals get different numbers based on driving habits.
According to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/17558.shtml
the overall combined MPG is 28 for my car. This simply isn’t the case for me and never was.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:08 am)Facts:
1) Honda track record on resale is higher
2) Honda Insight 40/45 mpg
3) Cruze 40 mpg, (which is surely 35/40 mpg) Why in the world would you think GM would say 40 mpg city? We all know 40 mpg has to be highway. I would also ask, how they expect to get 40 mpg highway with the 1.4L engine and a larger car than the Cobalt (Did GM find a way to violate the laws of physics?)
4) Cruze available in 2010
5) Insight available 2009
6) Cruze is basic ICE and priced at near $20k
7) Insight includes ICE and electric components at nearly same price.
This is just a no brainer.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:11 am)#40 RB is right to a degree. My next car will likely be a Cruze (well, if they are still making them by then. My 110,000 mile Grand Am is humming along just fine) rather than the Volt simply because of the financials. Having said that, however, I would choose the Volt if I had the disposable income to spare. The concept is wonderful (I hate OPEC) and the technology is awesome.
But… I don’t think most consumers will confuse it with or compare it to the Cruze. It will have different skin/styling and interior (and drive train!) than the Cruze, which makes it quite different. Most people have no clue what the word “platform” means.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:19 am)I have a 2003 saab 93 with 160K miles. Since i’ve been tracking now (about 20-25 fill-ups) i’ve been getting 32.5 mpg overall. Its a 2.0L turbo @ 175 hp. I do drive mostly highway at around 75 mph. It being a manual does help too
I still dont think you can compare HWY mpg for hybrids vs non-hybrid. A 30 Miles+ Trip with a hybrid will just not hold its fuel economy. a hybrid needs stop and go to get its numbers. This is why people dont get what they are told they are suppose to get.
After even 10 or so miles i dont see how a hybrid can be better at higher speeds.
Any comments on this??
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:23 am)#43 JEC,
Yeah but very few of your points affect me.
1.) For starters, resale means nothing to me because I keep my cars until the practical end of their life. But even when considering resale value, all I have to do is buy a 1-year old Cruze (at lower resale value than an Insight) and I just beat you economically. So resale value is either irrelevant or can be gamed to my advantage.
2.) Furthermore the 2009 availability of the Insight matters only if you are looking to buy a car in 2009. I am not.
3.) Obviously unknown to most people on this site is the fact that a turbo setup can increase an engine’s efficiency over normal aspiration when not in boost mode (which is most of the time), but then will suck up extra gas when occassionally boosted. THAT is how the Cruze will surpass the existing 35 mpg normally aspirated Cobalt. Look for 40 mpg with the Cruze… It is technically possible.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:27 am)#45 Cashen.
You are right. But also consider than many people in congested urban/suburban areas seldom commute at 60 mph even on the interstate. Here in Pittsburgh, the commute on the Parkway (with emphasis on the word “PARK”) runs stop-and-go with and average speeds anywhere from 20-40 mph in the worst of rush hour. So even a long highway commutes winds up being ideal for a hybrid.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:29 am)Hi and good morning,
I’m ‘on the list’ at Honda(sort to speak) for the new Insight, so let me break down ‘why’ (FYI, Insight will be my ‘commuter’ until I can get a plug-in 4 seater from…anyone). The choice for me was easy. Here is why:
A) The Insight is real. It has a ship date that is in the 6 month range, the production line is up…and running. The Cruze is slated for mid/late 2010 rollout. Why did they push it back? Because any small car is selling well now…the Cobalt/Pursuit/G5 is old architecture and with that comes high margins. SImply put, old tech is cheap tech, and the margin is better.
B) The Insight is alot of car for $18,500, probably the Cruze will come in around the same cost, but with less MPG…you have to assume the 40MPG of the Cruze is highway…it’s not getting that in the city.
C) And more important. One is a Honda, one is a Chev. One is a hybrid, one is not. Therefore, one of the most important factors is residual…and here, there can be no argument.
Cruze $18,500 — 4 years– $8,000
Insight $18,500 — 4 years — $14,000
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:39 am)#48 Statik – Regarding your math, you just convinced me to buy a used Cruze, thereby getting much more car for my money! The best value in any car is to buy a 1-2 year old car still under warranty. Therefore anyone buying a “new” used car is wise to buy the one with the highest depreciation (assuming quality is high, of course)
The mpg is a non issue. A 40 mpg Honda gets 0.025 gal/mile. A 35 mpg Chevy gets 0.028 gal/mile. The difference is a whopping difference of 0.003 gal/mile. Driving 12,000 miles in a year yields a difference of only 36 gallons a year. Therefore mpg is not a practical deciding factor if you have other compelling reasons for choosing a model.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:41 am)Oh, and my “compelling” reason is buy American. I want to keep as much of my money as possible in the US. That way the compounding effect of my money generates greater wealth in the economy, thereby making more cash available to hand over to Wall Street financial institu….. hey wait a minute….
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:48 am)A 767 Boeing so I can make as much carbon footprint as a google guy.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:49 am)#44 Jim in PA says, regarding Volt as compared to Cruze ” I don’t think most consumers will confuse it with or compare it to the Cruze. It will have different skin/styling and interior (and drive train!) than the Cruze, which makes it quite different. Most people have no clue what the word “platform” means.”
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I’m in agreement that most customers will not confuse the one with the other. On the other hand, it seems to me that most likely they will compare it, as both Cruze and Volt will be sold by the same dealers, and will be the same overall size and shape and meet similar needs insofar as transportation.
When they do the comparison, I hope they will see the Volt as a car with more upscale fit and finish, and they will see the Volt as having a gadgety non-traditional iPod-like interior (which probably will be better to younger customers and worse to older ones, on the average).
I’m sure everyone will notice that the Volt is different because of the plug and like the idea of not having to be dependent on gas all the time.
That is, the Volt will be a high-line Cruze, with nicer features but at a higher additional cost. To me the higher cost will be worth it (if the Volt is available, and it is not too much higher), but I’m not sure that I am representative of most other customers.
I do think the Volt will be successful in getting some customers to visit Chevy dealers who otherwise would have gone only to Honda, so in that way they may pick up some Cruze sales versus Insight.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:50 am)I’d also like to mention the impact these cars will have to each compny.
Honda is immediately pumping out 200,000 of these…this is a new car for them, additional product to complement their lineup and will help their sales.
Chevrolet hopes to sell 300,000 of these (worldwide or NA?, I dunno)…but at the loss of the Cobalt/Pursuit/G5/G4 (and maybe HHR?) domestically. The Cruze is a replacement car for the Delta platform smaller car. As was mentioned the Cruze will be made in Lordstown in mid 2010. For a short period there will be overlap of the two cars in 2010, but the Cobalt will cease to exist and the Cruze takes its place.
The Cruze is a nicer car for sure, but it is also more expensive. Just last week a Cobalt could be had for $12,900, it is doubtful if you will ever see a Cruze in this price range.
Sales (thru Sept 08)
Cobalt 162,462
G5 21,080
HHR 80,498 (made in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico, so this could be continued to be built or something else…I don’t think there is any news on it)
Note: I did not include international production of the Delta platform (Opel/Astra, etc) for this comparison.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:59 am)I have to admit that the Volt appeals to the “deep seated inner geek” in me, but in the end I have to write a check and the decision will be purely financial…
20k for a cruze that gets 40ish mpg 30k for a Volt that gets 100ish. Assuming $4/gallon gas, zero interest on money, and free electricity, it would still take 100,000 miles to break even.
I faced the same decision 4 years ago. The Prius was $24k and a fully loaded Taurus w/a $5500 rebate was $17.5k. The Taurus now has 130,000 miles on it. If I had purchased a Prius I still would not have broken even.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:59 am)Campy Says: @7
Honda has a far superior product here, not only will the Insight be available over a year before the Cruze it actually looks like a progressive “I’m driving a hybrid” car.
Honda learned this lesson the hard way, hybrids that look like regular cars don’t sell.
That, and we all know when GM says “over 40 mpg” they really mean 35 city 41 hwy, which not as good as the 40/45 Insight numbers.
**********************************************************************************
Making statements like the above is ridiculous. You don’t have any inside information on Honda or GM and yet, you can predict which car will be better. Your are not looking at the new GM who’s new models have won many awards.
You should find yourself a job with Consumers Report because you would fit in perfectly.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (7:59 am)The only way I buy another GM is if it’s an E-REV.
If I have a choice in E-REV drivetrains, GM will have to prove theirs is better with total cost savings over the competition to 150,000 or 200,000 miles.
GM makes nice “shells.”
GM makes cars reasonably fun to drive.
GM sells cars usually cheaper than the competition, for similar vehicles.
None of those three factors is helpful when the car is on the rack.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:10 am)I see a few misconceptions here about how the Honda IMA works — I’d like to try to clear that up.
First off, you need to know that Honda’s approach with their hybrid system has always been to use the smallest, most efficient engine that will maintain any speed you select with very little power to spare. They make the resulting vehicle “acceptably drivable” by adding what amounts to and electric boost system.
Second, the battery pack is very small, but you don’t need a big pack if all you do is dip into it when accelerating. If you use some charge, it will need to be replenished but after that point the vehicle operates in a charge sustaining mode — very similar to the Volt using the CDL as a target and running the engine/generator when on the the highway and out of charge depletion mode.
Third, because of the above yes, the Honda engine really is that efficient. In fact, those of us who avoid using the battery as much as possible actually get significantly better mileage than the rating because we avoid conversion losses accrued when trying to recharge — which you need to remember is only through regenerative braking. To illustrate, have a look at the results I’m currently getting in my 2002 Honda Insight 5MT here (with photographic proof):
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14354
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:10 am)Fourth, the EPA highway cycle has recently been “improved” and now includes segments at 80mph so yes, those ratings for 2008 and newer vehicles are “real world” — that’s why the ratings dropped across the board.
Fifth, the Honda definitely won’t have a manual transmission because they found over the years that it is too easy to lug the engine and thereby cause excessively deep and frequent cycling of the battery. They had a much higher failure rate for batteries in manual transmission equipped vehicles than CVTs (because of uneducated drivers really) so they stopped manufacturing them. The last Civic Hybrid with a stick was the ‘05 model year, and the very last hybrid they made with one was the discontinued original Insight in ‘06. The Cruze on the other hand has already been pictured with a manual transmission and there is no reason to believe it will not be available with one.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:12 am)Finally, if you like the Cruze but want the mileage of the Honda you can get there if you really want to purchasing the 5MT version and modifying your driving habits. Like Rashiid, I also own a 2002 Elantra 5MT — mine has 99K mi on it. He is correct about the mileage ratings and also correct about what you can achieve with driving behavior. I used to average 33mpg in that car — modifying my driving in some fairly easy ways had me over 40mpg. My current tank is at 66mpg (as measured by a ScanGauge-II calibrated by good old odometer miles divided by pumped gallons) and I’m on track to hitting 1000mi before needing to fill up again. I’m hardly your typical driver but honestly, it isn’t that difficult to “out hybrid a hybrid” if you want to. Particularly if you start with a vehicle that is more efficient anyway. My Elantra is only rated for 33mpg on the highway — imagine what is possible with a vehicle rated for 40+mpg ?
Regardless, I’m really excited about the Volt because of the real possibility of reducing fuel usage to a bare minimum of just a few fillups a year. The Cruze looks really nice, and so does the Honda Insight II. I eagerly await actual usage numbers for both!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:15 am)#43 JEC
1)Honda track record on resale is higher
Honda does not have fleet sales being dumped on the market driving resale lower.
2) Honda Insight 40/45 mpg
The article says it is “expected” to get that…not a “fact”
3) Cruze 40 mpg, (which is surely 35/40 mpg) Why in the world would you think GM would say 40 mpg city? We all know 40 mpg has to be highway. I would also ask, how they expect to get 40 mpg highway with the 1.4L engine and a larger car than the Cobalt (Did GM find a way to violate the laws of physics?)
You can make a vehicle physically bigger and use better lighter materials, improved aerodynamics, and a direct injection turbo can give better mileage…proven and a FACT..no laws of physics being violated..and as a counter how can a smaller HP ICE / electric move all the extra component weight without additional fuel..it cant which is why many hybrid users cannot get the expected mileage on highway commutes..only city is realistic.
4) Cruze available in 2010
Unless they bump it up..it is expected mid 2010
5) Insight available 2009
unless they run into delays..date is also expected///no “facts here either (also applies to point 4)
6) Cruze is basic ICE and priced at near $20k
Read the article…price no announced, expected to be Under 20 k
7) Insight includes ICE and electric components at nearly same price.
right..same price…as in “not announced”
This IS a GM fan site…for thiose that want the insight…get your d**n name off the list and go here
http://www.fanpop.com/spots/honda
JGTVWOTR
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:15 am)For more info about what the 2008 and newer EPA highway cycle is, check out the following site:
http://tinyurl.com/4ls2s6
This is the reason mileage ratings were reduced.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:20 am)Based on the following criteria, if I was in the market in 2009 for a new car, I would “Choose the Cruze.”–(Yes, you may use that GM). Here’s why:
1. Like “Jim in PA” sited earlier, re-sale value is a non-issue for me as well as I make vehicle purchases for the long, long term. So saying vehicle X is worth more than vehicle Y in 5 years means very little to me.
2. Based on subjective appeal of the two vehicles, I like the look and design of the Cruze better. The interior is especially a nice touch and is what puts the Cruze over the top for me.
3. Base costs are close. I’m skeptical a “value packaged” edition of the Insight is going to be as cheap as we are being lead to believe. I’ll believe it when I see it. I will be happy to be wrong by the way.
4. Fuel efficiency is not far different between the two. I imagine the Honda will be somewhat better with efficiency, especially in City driving, but it doesn’t appear like it will totally massacre its competitors. I would suspect when the turbo kicks in, the Cruze will have a little more punch than the Honda.
5. If you just “gotta have a hybrid”, and nothing else will do, then the Insight looks like a good choice at a good price point. I don’t fall in that category. I consider anything with good efficiency.
Things I like about the Cruze are, first, it lacks the added complexity of a hybrid. Second, it can likely be serviced and repaired by most mechanics today, I fact that is sort of a gamble with hybrids at some places. Third, it is a small car with sexy lines and a cool interior. Fourth, any way you slice it or dice it, the Cruze offers good efficiency–not better than a hybrid, but really good for its size. Fifth, it appears GM is closing the quality gap that used to be a huge issue.
It is very close to a draw for me between these two cars, but I would choose the Cruze. And all of this coming from a current owner of an older Honda Accord.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:24 am)#48 statik
Excellent points. Especially item C. Honda’s efforts to keep resale value in their vehicles payoff for their company and the vehicle owner. While a quick sale of a few thousand vehicles looks good on the bottom line, fleet sales crush resale value. And do not forget quality.
GM NA has been forced by high energy prices to get more competitive in the small vehicle market. But everything new is 2-3 years away.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:41 am)GXT (#32), First of all, read what I wrote a little bit closer. I said “close to 50MPG”. That is the direct quote I have heard, and admittedly I don’t know what /exactly/ that means. Believe it or not (and I don’t care if you do or don’t…) I have heard this information from people within GM that I personally know and trust.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:48 am)I spend a lot of time in my car. At a 110 mile a day commute in heavy houston traffic it can be 3-4 hours a day in my car. I love the look of the outside of the Cruze, but I have to admit, the interior of the Insight caught my eye. I have never been a fan on Honda, my husband had a 1991 Accord when I met him and 175000 miles later, and 14 years we sold it. It is still on the road to this day. So there is no doubt that Honda makes a good vehicle. the just aren’t for me.
Chevy cars have always seemed to lack something when it comes to interior. I have been a Ford girl all my life ( starting with my 67 Fastback Shelby Mustang) but the volt has cought my intrest, I just wish the interior was “more”.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:02 am)If GM does with the Cruze what they’ve done with the Malibu, the Honda fans may have a surprise coming in regards to their depreciation rhetoric. GM dramatically ratched down the rental fleet sales of the Malibu when it launched the 2008. Go now to Cars.com, AutoTrader.com, etc, and you will see used 2008 Malibu LTZ’s with 15,000 miles on them selling for $25,000!
Regarding the Cruze vs. Insight, you will certainly have a more enjoyable ride in the peppy Cruze, with more creature comforts included than either the Honda Civic, and Toyota Corolla. In addition, the Cruze will continue GM’s track record over the last few years to have superior fit and finish. One visual comparison of the Honda Accord and the Chevy Malibu will confirm this. GM features like OnStar, and the rate in which GM has become industry leading in mileage in several segments, make the Cruze a great choice. Even the current Cobalt gets 37 HWY, while the Toyota Corolla went backwards from 36 to 35 with their current model. If the Cruze comes out with a 44 MPG HYW rating, most people will probably exceed 50. GM really DOES have it going on, and more and more people are coming to that realization.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:12 am)The interior of the Honda looks like most asian cars, like a grandpa car, but trying to be cool.
I would like to know the 0-60 of each of these. I dont want to limp onto the expressway. I’m guessing a 1.4L turbo, would beat a 1.3L hybrid, but need to see the actual #’s.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:16 am)Without a doubt I would prefer the Honda Insight primarily because it will be available more than a year earlier than the Chevy Cruze. Plus, I expect the Insight to get better gas mileage. If the Cruze could be released in the U.S. early next spring, I could be persuaded to purchase it over the Insight. Maybe. Right now, for me, it is all about availability and gas mileage savings.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:17 am)If GM charges 40K for the volt, I’ll buy a Cruze over that any day. For me, the economics have got to make sense. I’m a single income family with three kids.
Between Cruze and Insight, I’d go Cruze, again on the economics, assuming the hybrid will cost 3K more. They are more complex to fix and you’re really not getting much, if any, extra in mpg’s over the Cruze.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:23 am)My last Honda was a 1984 (85?) CRX-SI, great little car, just about perfect.. drove it for 50k miles and sold it for about $600 less than what I paid for it.. so resale value does matter.
One word regarding the Cruze vs the Insight….TURBO LAG…. the Insight will not have any since electric motors have instant torque. Obviously the Insight is a more sophisticated vehicle but I bet it will carry a much higher dealer premium.
Both electric assist motor and turbo have the same function.. to make a smaller engine work like a bigger one.. the turbo recovers wasted exhaust energy and the hybrid recovers wasted brake energy.
I would love it if my next car did not have a timing belt, I prefer a chain.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:32 am)Definitely prefer the Volt (interior especially) over the Honda Insight 2.0
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:36 am)I’ve never liked the styling of the Prius, and therefore, I don’t care for the new Insight as it is almost a direct copy of the Prius. The Cruze, I have to say, looks great, especially the interior. If it can do better than 40 mpg without the added cost of a hybrid drivetrain, then I think it is a winner.
However, I still want a VOLT…if it’s affordable
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:47 am)One interesting thing on the American Versus Japanese car debate..I find that as far as convenience features, American cars win hands down.
I have a friend that just bought a Honda, it has power windows..here is a small thing, but shows engineering oriented thinking versus consumer oriented thinking that is the main difference.
The Honda has a lock for the power windows. when engaged, even the DRIVER cannot operate the windows. it must be unlocked first, and Honda has no option for this. It is either locked, or unlocked.
A GM car can also lock out the window operation, but the driver can operate all the windows without dis engaging the lock. Harder and more expensive to engineer, but better thought out for the consumer.
Fit and finish are similar, and I find over the long run I personally have better durability with NA cars..for every “I had a crap (insert brand) and will never buy one again..” I can find another that is EXACTLY opposite.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:51 am)I am surprised at the number of people that bad mouth G M regarding mpg and quality. I am a retired machine tool sales engineer [retired in jan. 01] and still have my 99 buick park ave ultra. Being in sales and driving a lot forced me to develope driving skills that add to mpg. Sales types make no money while pumping gas.
Anyway, to the point, on a long hwy trip I DO GET 30 MPG. The car now has 181000 miles on it and the only thing I have had to do other than normal maint. is have one gasket replaced at 161000 miles. I also admit that I have my cars serviced as often as the owners of imported car do.
And if I have to buy before the volt is available it would be the Cruze
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:56 am)Real world prediction:
Chevy Cruze: City/Hwy 26 mpg/ 34 mpg
If you dispute, then please explain how the technology or design on this car is significantly different/better than a Mini Cooper.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (9:57 am)Statik
Hard to argue with your Honda choice. I’ve bought Hondas (Acuras really but same difference) for quite a while and the quality has always been reasonably good.
What’s discouraging on the mpg side, at least to me, is something I mentioned earlier in this thread: namely, that by modding a Civic to have a more tear drop shape you can up the mileage to 70 mpg. You’d be able to go faster as well. Honda makes very efficient engines, it’s the drag that kills the mileage.
We’d be better served if the manufacturers spent more time on the aerodynamics. It works even on things like trailers:
http://www.saac.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=142&Itemid=2
Personally I like the Maybach and Tucker shapes as starting points. We’ll see what Tesla comes up with.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:03 am)I would take the insight over the Cruze. I like the interior and exterior styling better. Sure, the Insight does look a little like a Prius, but they jazzed it up enough to not be so boring. Plus you get TDI type mileage with cheaper regular unleaded for less than 20 grand!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:08 am)It’s hard to say. I think the Cruze has more style, but the looks and concept of the Insight are more interesting, which is really important to me. The Cruze definitely has the nicer interior, and will almost definitely be more fun to drive.
So basically to me the Insight has more Curb appeal, but the Cruze seems like the better car. Not sure which one I would actually go for.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:15 am)jjski78
Plus you get TDI type mileage with cheaper regular unleaded for less than 20 grand!
Where did you get that?
READ THE FRIGGIN ARTICLE..(and I quote” ” Although pricing hasn’t been determined, it is expected to sell for less than $20,000 ”
Pricing hasn’t been determined…
All you japanese car loving “Fact” posters” need to go back to your hooked on phonics lessons and READ it. (because it seems that you read what you want..
Same applies to the CRUZE..No Price has been determined..
Same fo rthe VOLT..NO PRICE HAS been determined..
you are all guesing
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:27 am)If the volt is 35k and these are 20k, I will be going with one of these. While I would love to plug-in my car at night, I am not going to spend over 20k for any car. Cars are still a depreciating asset. It is not worth my money to drop more money into them because I will never get it back.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:27 am)61 mitch
This IS a GM fan site…for thiose that want the insight…get your d**n name off the list and go here
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have been following the Volt for quite some time on this site, as well as others. The question being asked in this thread is NOT about the Volt. The question is a comparison between the Volt and Cruze, and the facts I stated are facts based on the information stated in this article and from other sources, such as consumer reports.
If you want to argue the “fact” that the Cruze will come out earlier than promised, or that the Insight will come out later than promised, then perhaps all arguments can be deemed non-factual. These are the facts as we know them today, and yes anything can change.
I am not a GM basher or a Honda lover, I am answering the question that Lyle posed. If you are so sure the Cruze is the better car, then go ahead and put yourself on the waiting list.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (10:37 am)JEC
you say
“If you want to argue the “fact” that the Cruze will come out earlier than promised, or that the Insight will come out later than promised, then perhaps all arguments can be deemed non-factual. These are the facts as we know them today, and yes anything can change”
I did not state any facts, nor did I claim my rebuttals as “facts…YOU did. I was pointing out the erronous claims of “fact”..too many people read something and it becomes a “fact” it is not. it is an expectation..I accept the expectation..I will not accept it as a “fact”
and that was the intent.
The GM bashing or Honda loving portion was not directed at your post specifically..but in General, and for that I apologize.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:04 am)39, 46 chasen and 48 Jim in PA……”I have always wondered how the HWY mpg is so much higher for hybrid vs non-hybrid????…..”
———————————————————————————————————————
Although hybrid car makers rarely mention it, what I call “deceleration recharging”, which occurs when the accelerator is released (but before the brakes are applied) as a means of reducing the fuel consumed or battery drain still more — particularly on long trips and open highways — is an important feature of any well-designed hybrid, electric or E-REV drive train. It provides the sensation of “engine braking” (“free-wheeling” causes a driver to feel out of control). And it unquestionably improves the mileage of hybrids (and reduces the battery drain of electrics & E-REVs) at highway speeds, even if the driver never touches the brake pedal.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:06 am)#68 kdawg – 0-60 times for when you enter an express way?
Really, how often do you enter a freeway with your foot jammed to the floor? I drive around the greater Seattle area all day long and never need to merge in this fashion.
Not to pick on you, but some drivers need to make some fundamental changes to their driving habits.
Driving habits are why some people get 45 mpg in a particular car and others get only 29 mpg in the same car. The Volt will be the same way, some will get 50 miles electric range and others will get only 20 and not have a clue why.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:10 am)Same as #34 JS219, #35 NZ David, #38 Rashiid Amul, & #40 Jim I.
BTW, where’s Tagamet?
Be well.
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:13 am)76, I have no idea about anything what the Mini Cooper has, but the current Chevy Cobalt gets 37 MPG Hwy, already, so, your prediction is already wrong!! its not a real stretch to conclude that GM’s excellent engineering staff have come up with a small turbocharged 4 cyl. that can get over 40 MPG Hwy.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:25 am)The Volt looks just like the Cruze or the Cruze looks just like the Volt. I’d like to see a picture of the Volt and Cruze side by side. Looks like the same car to me, which is why the Volt will be a hard sale.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:26 am)I dig this thread, so much misinformation from so many people it almost renders the whole thing inert. We should just deal in things we do know, or what statements are out there. Not the maybes, or what ifs.
—-
Only things we really have on record for the Insight is the price $18,500, (although at the Paris autoshow the display only said ‘under $20,000 and it will be near the current Prius in MPG. Production lines are in place/testing now…but full production is scheduled to being in January/February 2009 and hopefully in dealerships in early spring.
Only things we know on record for the Cruze:
Will not be out 2009. (4 banger plant for it starts production Q2 2010 — Lordstown begins production swticher over in early 2010, production in summer of 2010). Has a MPG rating of approximately 34MPG city/44MPG highway according to Wagoner,
“1.4-liter turbocharged version of GM’s global four-cylinder engine and its EPA fuel-economy ratings should be 34 mpg city and 44 mpg highway, give or take — or about 9 mpg better than the Cobalt. Price will be well south of $20,000.” Wagoner (as per GM spokeperson)
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/07/gms-bob-lutz-chevy-beat-not-coming-to-america-cruze-a-long-ways-off.html
GM is on record saying that it will be significantly more than a Cobalt ($15,500), and more than its Japanese rivals. General Manager Ed Peper said. “GM needs to get more money per vehicle than its prime Japanese competitors, Honda Motor Co. and Toyota Motor Corp.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26726172/
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:28 am)The Cruze will achieve better mileage than previously offered small cars because GM is finally putting their best technology into this engine. For example, I’m sure this engine will have direct injection. That’s good for >1-2mpg right there. Engine downsizing combined with turbo charging creates a very efficient powerplant. If they put one of their new 6 speed automatics behind it, there is no reason why this car can’t get at least 40mpg.
I used to get 36mpg in a 2000 Pontiac Vibe, which had a 1.8L, 5 speed Toyota drivetrain. The Cruze will actually have a more powerful engine than the Vibe, but consume much less fuel when not under boost due to smaller displacement. At peak power it will also be more efficient due to decreased pumping losses (thanks to the turbo).
I’m very proud of GM for FINALLY building a high tech small displacement motor. It will do the job. All the people that think a 1.4L is too small, need to get their heads out of the 1980s. Technology is not static, so neither should be our thinking.
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+1
Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:31 am)# 47 Jim “Obviously unknown to most people on this site is the fact that a turbo setup can increase an engine’s efficiency over normal aspiration when not in boost mode”
The one and only single function of a turbo is to force more air in to the engine, period. When you do this, you need to add more fuel to keep air/fuel ratios happy. A turbo absolutely cannot increase FUEL efficiency over the same engine, normally aspirated.
What it does is increase volumetric efficiency (or more accurately, mass efficiency) when the turbo is producing positive manifold pressure. Or even when it’s REDUCING negative manifold pressure but manifold pressure is not yet positive. But again, this comes at a cost of using more fuel.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:41 am)I have the 1.4L’s grandfather, the 2.0LNF. The LNF is an amazing engine with direct fuel injection that allows a leaner air/fuel mixture, a twin scroll turbo spools up lightning fast, variable cams allow for high horsepower with low end torque, oil squirters keep the pistons cool, a highly advanced Bosch ECM that regulates engine perimeters to provide 260’ Ibs trq.at all density altitudes, the stock car is running 130 horsepower per liter!
I’m getting a solid 39MPGs commuting to work on a 60MPH parkway, that’s from a rear wheel drive sports car convertible that is almost as wide as it is short. My car has a terrible coefficient of drag, something like .42. I’ve tuned my engine and increased boost to 23 PSI and I’m running about 272 horsepower at the wheels or 320 horsepower at the engine. My stock torque is now up to about 380’ Ibs. On some days I can average 42 miles per gallon. 320 horsepower on 2 liters is like running 992 horsepower on the GM’s 6.2L.
The 1.4L is going to be an excellent little engine as it carries over much of the LNF’s advancements into a smaller more efficient package. I vote good engineering for a powerful/efficient turbo gas motor versus a mild hybrid Honda. The Insight is not going to come with those headlights and 18” wheels either, it will end up just looking like a Prius. The Cruz is a good looking car that I’ll be able to get 50 MPG out of.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:44 am)I get a kick out of those people who do not understand that GM has been building quility into their vehicles for many years now.
I purchased an Avalanche in 2002. The truck has had one minor $300.00 issue that I had to pay for and the emergency break pedel malfunctioned and was covered by the warranty. The truck has 82,000+ miles on it. I have had no other issues. Even the break pads are original on this 6000+ Lbs truck! I drive 30 miles to and from work daily in the winter, all city traffic. The rotors have never been turned, the engine has had spark plugs changed once. The air filter has been changed twice. I do regular oil changes at 3K miles. Tires, windshield wipers have been changed, but that’s about it. The truck runs/drives just as good as it did the day I purchased it.
I had a friend give a very favorable comment when he found out that the truck was six years old. He thought it couldn’t be more than a year or two old.
Now for those complaining about me owning a big SUV, I also ride my Honda Valkyrie (motorcycle) to and from work a great deal. I use the truck for what it’s designed for, hauling people, cargo and my camper trailer. I use my motorcycle and someday the Volt as my commuter. I’m sure the Volt will last a very long time. If the Volt were not due out in two years, I’d be looking at the Cruze or the Malibu which are also a great looking cars. Now there may be a difference between the quility of GM’s SUV’s and smaller products. I believe they have learned their lessons on quility or the lack of it. The TV special that was produced and reported here a few months ago gave me hope. When the long time GM employee on the line stated that in the past cars left the assembly line with parts missing but today nothing leaves unless it’s perfect, well that was nice to hear.
Go GM!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:51 am)I would not trade my current vehicle for either car. My 2006 Insight gets on the average 60.8 miles per gallon. Its biggest drawback is that it has no all electric capability. My next car will be electric. NPNS
Sure you will find customers for your car. Anyone however who sees that the state of the economy was caused in the largest part by sending millions of dollars a month for oil to countries that hate us will agree that only home grown fuel will help us out of this crisis.
Take Care,
TED
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:53 am)VOLT, VOLT, VOLT
NPNS =D-
I’ll wait thank you
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:55 am)Put the Cruz on a volt platform and I will buy it.
Take Care,
TED
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:58 am)NO PLUG NO SALE
If I have to limp my existing vehicle along by adding a set of peddles to it that’s what I’ll do rather than buy another vehicle without a plug.
This consumer is on strike until a plug-in is available.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (11:59 am)For STATIK
Toyota annopunces 0% financing until Nov 3.
A first for them.
Toyota offers 0% interest on 11 models
TORRANCE, Calif. — Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc . Thursday announced a zero-percent interest rate offer on eleven Toyota models. Expiring Nov. 3, the loan offer varies by model, with terms ranging from 36 to 60 months. Taking on the credit squeeze which has sidelined many new-car buyers, the offer is unprecedented for Toyota. The Toyota models qualifying for this offer are: Matrix, Corolla, Camry, RAV4, Highlander, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, Sienna, Tacoma and Tundra.
seems incentive for (from) all…seeing a LOT of BIG SUV’s and TRUCKS on that list…..
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:03 pm)or better yet a 125 Mile per charge BEV platform.
NPNS LJGTVWOTR
Take Care,
TED
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:10 pm)#91 Stew – A turbo 1.4L engine WILL be more fuel efficient than the larger engine you would otherwise need to match that same power without a turbo. So I phrased it poorly, but I stand by my point that putting a turbo 1.4L into the Cruze will be more fuel efficient than the alternate (larger) aspirated engine that would otherwise be needed to replace it. But yes, you are correct that the specific 1.4L engine in question would not see an increase in efficiency when a turbo is attached. Good catch.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:17 pm)#85 Stew – With regard to 0-60 mph merging acceleration, you may be humored to know that some of the highways in Pittsburgh actually have on-ramps with STOP SIGNS. No kidding. You can either go 0-60 very fast when pulling onto the highway, or you can get a tractor trailer in your trunk. Fun stuff.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:19 pm)If, they both get 40mpg in the City, and better on the highway, then my vote will be for the Cruze. Because I would not have to deal with the complex hybird parts.
Additionally, I like the exterior of the Cruze, more then the Insight’s “Like Prius” design. “I Hate the Prius design”
As for the interior, they both look good to me, but I like the center stack of the Cruze.
So, if this was my chose, excluding the VOLT of course.. I’d select the Cruze.
I’ve have owned Honda’s and it’s no big deal, their dealerships have issues with accepting, the fact, that sometimes there cars have problems too. And then, they refuse to address the issues, stating there is nothing wrong, or it’s not covered. So I’m not real big on Honda ownership either.
#98,
I may have to look into that, to get me a car until the volt is ready. I can do 0% for 36 – 60 months.. LOL…
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:26 pm)I’d like to buy a 2002 Honda Insight if i couldn’t get a Volt. No mild hybrid for me.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:27 pm)#98 Mitch
For STATIK
Toyota annopunces 0% financing until Nov 3.
A first for them.
Toyota offers 0% interest on 11 models
TORRANCE, Calif. — Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc . Thursday announced a zero-percent interest rate offer on eleven Toyota models. Expiring Nov. 3, the loan offer varies by model, with terms ranging from 36 to 60 months. Taking on the credit squeeze which has sidelined many new-car buyers, the offer is unprecedented for Toyota. The Toyota models qualifying for this offer are: Matrix, Corolla, Camry, RAV4, Highlander, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, Sienna, Tacoma and Tundra.
seems incentive for (from) all…seeing a LOT of BIG SUV’s and TRUCKS on that list…..
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Hehe, why is this for me? Although I did see big ole banner on it somewhere…made me do a double take.
It is very true that the economy/price of oil seems to be turning the auto industry into the airline industry. Losers all around.
If I was ‘mixing it up’ in the market right now and I didn’t belive in the motto of ‘don’t in invest in what you care about,’ I’d be betting against all the big cap players like Toyota in this segment.
I think there is some good money to be made. Not that Toyota is in any real dangers of solvency/liquidity like the domestics…but I can’t justify their 126 BILLION dollar market cap in this environment by any stretch of the imagination.
/just saying
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I will say this, if Toyota, Honda, etc. really starting pushing these kind of 0% deals and start to drop their prices across the board, that is REALLY bad news for GM. It has just been the domestics slashing and burning so far to try and hold onto their sales, the importers have been attempting to hold the line/margins, if this signals the beginning of all out war…thats not good.
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Even more interesting is the way Toyota is playing up the fact you can lease these vehicles…something they know GM/Chrysler can’t do.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/03/autos/toyota_zero_percent/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:30 pm)#100 Jim
Right on! Anyway, we really all have the desires here, to hurry up and get a EREV or BEV to market!
On another BEV related note, which has nothing to do with this threads specific topic, I had the pleasure of attending the Tesla test drive event for owners-awaiting-delivery.
Man that was so exciting to see a 200 mile range full BEV sports car right there before my eyes. It really does make you wonder why the big automakers are having such a hard time with this.
Video was shot with my phone so it’s not very good quality, but here it is. The volume is not muted, it really is virtually silent, even when doing 0-60 like in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGDtrhtaNRI
Cheers!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:31 pm)carcus Says: @76
Real world prediction:
Chevy Cruze: City/Hwy 26 mpg/ 34 mpg
If you dispute, then please explain how the technology or design on this car is significantly different/better than a Mini Cooper.
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Because we Americans are smarter. When we set our minds to it, we tend to to beat the competition. Compare it to when the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, they woke up a sleeping giant. GM woke up three years ago and have been coming out with world class vehicles since. Expect the same to continue. Wake up and smell the coffee and be proud.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:34 pm)#84 nasaman
There is a some difference of opinion over using regen or freewheeling on downhills. Most who understand the issue have expressed a preference for freewheeling until they press a button or tap the brakes to engage regen. Some would even like to be able to set the level of regen.
The regen situation between the parallel hybrids and the Volt is quite different since the battery packs on the hybrids are much smaller but can be recharged much more frequently.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (12:53 pm)Joe @ 106,
You are exactly why Europeans and others get frustrated with Americans….Your analogy to Pearl Harbor is ridiculous. Sorry…back to the issue…
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:06 pm)the cruse
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:17 pm)Wow, I’ve seen some filler posts here from Lyle when there isn’t Volt news, but this is really pushing it. Over 100 posts on the question of which car would you buy based on Lyle making up price and mileage for each. And of course every expert with their own “facts” about these cars weighs in. Beautiful.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:19 pm)IMPORTANT!!!!
The Chevy Volt in a Cruze body (not the Cruze) is an electric car. The Prius can become nearly, not the same, type of car, for $10 – 20,000 added battery and electronics. NOTHING Honda has can do this.
Please do not mix up old technology (i.e., Honda and anyother mild hybrid) with new technology, the Chevy Volt.
One of the best features is that the Volt can generate electricity. Indeed that is all the gas motor does. Now imagine some time in the future when you have a house and the Volt is plugged in and charging and the power goes out. If you have thought ahead and the feature is available on the Volt then this can can turn around and generate power into your house during the outage!!!!! THIS OS SO COOL!!!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:26 pm)#104 Statik
You seem to get the most information about news items like this, and in true form provided excellent commentary.
I always enjoy your views (may not agree, but enjoy)
Do you think that short term it is a problem forht NA automakers, but if they do it too often can become a problem for the Japanese ones?
My thinking is that the big 3 are trying despaately to wean off of incentives,and lease losses, and the japanese are venturing there, I see the Japanese companies doing the big 3 dance in some ways..
More fleet sales to continue mgrowing market share.. bigger SUV’s and truck, US rising on the quality surveys, Japanese improving, but not s much (while improving, losing ground)..and now incentives…could swing the pendulum the other way now…maybe?
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (1:46 pm)For those who have not seen the latest photos of the Volt showing the plug, then follow the link:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2011_chevrolet_volt_more_official_photos_released_car_news+view-photos.html
Do we yet know where the exhaust pipe is?
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:40 pm)The Honda looks like a Prius
OK
But the Chevy looks quality
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (2:48 pm)There is some phobia against American cars.
Its weird I have a friend who has a 300k ford Taurus and never spends a dime on it. He even forgets to change the oil and he says oh its crap never buy another American car. I am like why do you say that you have owned this thing and it never breaks and you never spend any money on it. Last time I talked to him it failed emissions because it needed two oxygen sensors after 300k and he didn’t want to spend $75.00 on new ones saying how crappy it was. People at his work keep telling hit to by a foreign car and I am like why do you want to do that if your car works so well and is never broken down on you.
Now my neighbors have a Honda with 150k on it. Been though a transmission and one CV boot and they said they spend only 2k a year on repairing the vehicle but how great and reliable the car is.
Am I missing something here is the American public brainwashed by the Japanese marketing making us think our own products are bad.
So when consumer distorts asks both of these customers which car is better the Honda person says there’s it even though they spend a lot more on repairing the vehicle.
I am too smart to know about foreign cars. After owning a Mercedes and some Toyota models I know how much they cost to keep running. There is no magic in owning a Toyota Or Honda its just a fad at this point from my understanding.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:01 pm)I’ve seen a lot of well-reasoned, logical economic arguments based on the probable cost of gas in this thread.
That’s all fine and good, as long as you can remember these arguments fondly while sitting in a gas line, after an hour, when the pump five cars ahead of you goes “click” for the last time, and they start pulling numbers off of the gas station sign.
Two hurricane seasons have given us only a taste of what to expect in the coming years; it’s not just the fuel’s cost, but it’s availability / volativity. Add in economic and political upheaval (seen the news lately?) and you’ll find gas lines becoming a much more common element of life in these United States — that, or $1-a-day shifts in the per gallon costs.
If the Volt is out of the picture for some reason, I’ll likely look very seriously at the Saturn derivative of the Cruze. I’ll not buy a Cruze (or new anything) the year before I could get a Volt, or other EREV. In that case, I’ll pick up a used POS somewhere. In an ideal situation, my old SL2 keeps chugging along until I leave it with the GM dealer in trade for an EREV. If it dies three years before I could get a Volt, I’ll be far more likely to get a new something and take a longer view.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (3:16 pm)#112 mitch
#104 Statik
You seem to get the most information about news items like this, and in true form provided excellent commentary.
I always enjoy your views (may not agree, but enjoy)
Do you think that short term it is a problem forht NA automakers, but if they do it too often can become a problem for the Japanese ones?
My thinking is that the big 3 are trying despaately to wean off of incentives,and lease losses, and the japanese are venturing there, I see the Japanese companies doing the big 3 dance in some ways..
More fleet sales to continue mgrowing market share.. bigger SUV’s and truck, US rising on the quality surveys, Japanese improving, but not s much (while improving, losing ground)..and now incentives…could swing the pendulum the other way now…maybe?
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I’m not sure really what you are asking me.
Are the big 3 trying to get away from incentives? Yes, pretty badly, but thats also what they said a couple months ago, and their actions have not backed up their desire…and as of yet, have not been able to stop it doing it. This current month should see a reduction from the $3,900ish GM averaged in September judging by the structure on the website. (industry average was $2,900 for the month).
Do I see the pendulum swinging the other way? I’m not sure it what regard you mean. If you mean as to the quality of the automobiles they produce…sure. Toyota has actually been hurting a bit in this area and the domestics have certainly narrowed the gap.
If you mean do I see domestics overtaking the Japanese in any real fiscal sense…it is impossible. For reference, I don’t use the word ‘impossible’ lightly or cavalierly either…but I mean it in this case. I would explain myself, but it would be big, long, and then someone would probably retort accusing me of hating America or something, lol. (Long story short, they can’t service their debt)
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:35 pm)After reading all of these comments, I am still convinced there is no comparison to be made between a car that will be available in April 2009 and one that will be available in mid to late 2010. As much as I like what I see with the Cruze, the question was which would we prefer if we still can’t get a Volt. We can get the Insight in early 2009, the Cruze in summer 2010 and the Volt, probably mid 2011, if we are lucky. The answer has to be the Honda Insight at this time.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (4:47 pm)Neither.
No Plug – No Sale !
NPNS…
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:29 pm)If you want value, high resale, and high fuel economy, the new Insight would be the way to go.
Also, it’s actual mileage will be higher than stated. I have a Civic Hybrid and get 44/48 city/highway. I am an aggressive driver so get over 50 mpg on the highway when I take it easy and drive between 60 and 65 mph.
Something else to consider is the smaller size, lower weight and more aerodynamic design of the new Insight versus the Civic. Though the two vehicles share similar IMA hybrid components, the Insight will certainly get better mileage than the Civic hybrid. A realistic, real world figure should be 46/52.
Now compare that to the Cruze!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (5:49 pm)Tough choice. Honda makes the best cars but the styling of the new Insight is such a copy of the Prius it’s a crime.
I’ve actually had great luck with GM vehicles and I can’t say that the real world quality of GM is any worse than Honda. GM has finally learned to build quality 4 cylinder engines and small cars.
SO. All things being equal I’ll take that good looking Chevy Cruze!
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:27 pm)Neither. No plug, no sale.
(Of course, there is the very real risk that I may be driving my current cars for a very, very long time
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (6:54 pm)If I couldn’t get a volt and I had to choose between the insight and cruze, I would choose the insight just because Honda’s experience in the compact market has been longer and their years of reliable reputation. Don’t get me wrong, GM products have some good models that are reliable, but not every devision/vehicle is of high high quality.
But I predict that the volt definitely will be great due to the large amount of money/manpower spent on its development.
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Oct 3rd, 2008 (8:27 pm)I don’t see a coffee cup holder in either. This is a must. Whichever one has a coffee cup holder will sell better. Everyone I know drinks coffee on their way to work.
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Oct 4th, 2008 (12:00 am)I won’t buy either one.
If I can’t get a Volt then I’ll buy another Suburban.
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Oct 4th, 2008 (7:55 am)I own a Honda Insight 2 seater which I have driven since 2001 without any maintenance problems. I have gotten 64 mph lifetime. I’m sorry to see it disappear from the market. My wife has an SUV but we use my car most of the time. 99% of the time we only have two of in the car. Someone else can drive if we have to have more than two of us together.
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Oct 4th, 2008 (9:24 am)Very simple obvious fact:
Honda will sell more Insights ithan GM will sell Cruzes and Volts combined in 2009.
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Oct 4th, 2008 (10:08 am)I would love to have any American car that gets 40 MPG or greater. When we can stop using foreign oil and polluting our evniornment we will be a happier nation.
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Oct 4th, 2008 (1:51 pm)“……… when actual efficiency and price are similar?”
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The likelihood that the gasoline Cruze can match the hybrid Insight in real world efficiency is slim to none.
The Cruze will be lucky to average low 30’s mpg, the Insight will most likely get mid 40’s mpg.
GM tends to over-promise and under-deliver, while Honda does the opposite. If GM wants to get back up on their feet, less talk and more action will be required.
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Oct 6th, 2008 (8:36 am)This competition is healthy for the nation. I want either a Volt or a (bio) diesel Cruze, but the Honda is nice too. Either of those will give substantially better mileage than the Honda and let us start moving away from oil. Seems like the diesel, that is going on sale this spring in Europe is has fewer technology questions to solve before deployment.
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Oct 6th, 2008 (10:25 am)If you care about making the statement I’m driving a Hybrid..then by the Honda. However, if you care about driving something that doesn’t look like all the typical Hybrib bubbles then buy the Cruz! I mean seriously if the economy is close to the same you have to give a little importance to esthetics.
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Oct 6th, 2008 (10:39 am)Most of you guys seem to be glossing over the fact that only 100,000 insights will be slated for NA. At under $20,000 demand will far outstrip supply. Good luck getting your hands on one and if you do, good luck actually paying under $20k. The cruze will be much more accessible and it should get pretty close to the hybrid mpg-wise especially on the highway which is more of a priority to many of us than good city economy.
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Oct 6th, 2008 (6:01 pm)First off the statement that “hybrids that are non-hybrid looking vehicles, don’t sell”, is just foolish. hybrid looking cars that are out right now ( i.e. the Toyota Prius) or this future Honda Insight, are some of the most ugly exterior styling out there. GM/Chevy has something unbelievable with the Volt. The Volt is a true hybrid, battery powered up to 40 miles and gas anything over. Not to mention the exterior and interior are some of the best styling I have seen, and show the rest of the competition so called “hybrids” to shame.
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Oct 6th, 2008 (6:39 pm)Actually, the Insight is a “mild hybrid”. Those things don’t get much better mileage than gas cars, so the gas Cruze could be close. Now the diesel Cruze should be more efficient than the Insight, and downright FAST. It is going to have 236 lb/ft of torque. That much torque in a car the size of a Cruze should get 0-60 times in the six second range. Hybrid mileage and sports sedan performance. When can I get mine???
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Oct 9th, 2008 (8:00 am)#85 Stew
Most of the major highways in the Houston area have stop lights at the entrance ramps for the freeways. They are used to control traffic merging so not to cause a backup, so going 0-70 around here quickly is a necessity.
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Jan 2nd, 2009 (9:14 am)I’ll buy American.
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Sep 3rd, 2009 (12:28 pm)i like the cruze…i liked the cobalt too… but the cruze is more classy looking…and if you cant afford the volt this will do almost the same….GM….your doin a good job….keep it up!!
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