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Bob Lutz Video: GM Wasn’t Prepared for Volt Initial Public Reaction, Current Volt Mules are Chevy Cruzes
In this video segment, I filmed at the Centennial last week, GM vice chair Bob Lutz talks about the origin of the Volt concept and how “vague” in their thinking GM initially was. He said there was nothing to prepare GM for the reaction it received. After that they told themselves that they have “stumbled on the mother load”.
Although apparently not planned from the start, it was the public reaction that led GM to pursue production. Normally, he said GM concepts are very similar to production versions.
Lutz said GM knew “nothing” about the Volt when they got started, such as even the size of the battery pack.
He said normally the car would stay secretive from now on (after unveiling), but that GM decided early on the Volt development would be very open. He explained the reason for doing this was because GM couldn’t discount the possibility of failure, and they wanted to maintain credibility should that occur.
He confirmed Chris Paine and several others got to drive the early Volt developmental vehicles.
He also said the newest crop of mules are in Chevy Cruze bodies, instead of Malibus, and that they are building 3 per week and will have 50 by the end of 2008.
He said next year they will build about 100 cars that actually look like the Volt, and in 2010 he says they will have Volts actually made by “manufacturing” and not “engineering”, and they will have “a pretty huge fleet.” Based on this schedule he said another car company might actually claim late 09 as start of production.
[flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUVOUs_dPN0]
113 Responses to “Bob Lutz Video: GM Wasn’t Prepared for Volt Initial Public Reaction, Current Volt Mules are Chevy Cruzes”
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:33 am
I am still available to act as a Volt tester, should GM decide to put a few of those vehicles out on the road with “real world” end users!!!!
Go GM! – Go GM Volt Team!!!
And just so we are clear – No Plug, No Sale!
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Production Model date = date dealers have a Volt on the lot! Sounds like they really have got their engineering together. I can’t wait to get into one
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:48 am
“Although apparently not planned from the start, it was the public reaction that led GM to pursue production.”
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Great job Lyle !! You did it. We helped.
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:51 am
About asking potential customers what they want, could have told them that years ago. Gee, what a concept! Maybe they should get a new Product Development and Marketing Management.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Lyle:
Great job and thanks for all your hard work !!
I have one question. Will the first run of Volts be available in all states or only three as originally talked about ?
God Bless America,
Tom
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:21 am
When is an independent test driver going to get to evaluate mule performance? If the performance was anywhere near the design goals, why doesn’t GM let the Chevy Volt strut its stuff?
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:26 am
“Based on this schedule he said another car company might actually claim late 09 as start of production.”
Ok, so what exactly does this mean? Sounds like it’s going to push Toyonda to get theirs ready first??
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Ozone @ 4 said:
“About asking potential customers what they want, could have told them that years ago. Gee, what a concept! Maybe they should get a new Product Development and Marketing Management.”
I couldn’t agree more. This goes to the heart of execs and Wall Street barons caring more about stock options and hiring bonuses than actually increasing the value of their company (ala stock price for the shareholder). The consumer may actually get what they want for a change. And I also concur: If I can’t plug it in, I ain’t buying a new car.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:33 am
“He said next year they will build about 100 cars that actually look like the Volt, and in 2010 he says they will have Volts actually made by “manufacturing” and not “engineering”, and they will have “a pretty huge fleet.” Based on this schedule he said another car company might actually claim late 09 as start of production.”
==========================
What? 100 cars in in 2009, and Bob says others might claim this as start of production?
Then in 2010 they will have Volts made by manufacturing? Seems a stretch to think they can build any type of mass production numbers in 2010.
What a load of CRAP!
Everyone, take off your GM goggles. Production in 2010 ain’t gonna happen. Hope for 2011 at best (I am starting to wonder if GM is really serious about the Volt, or are they using it for leverage to get bailout money?)
Then in
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Lyle, I would really like to see something posted from Chris Paine, his reaction to his test drive and how he now feels about GM’s efforts.
Thanks,
Todd
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Lutz said something similar to the following at the end of the video.
…if now in the increasingly unlikely event that something goes wrong the media will say we understand that because you have been telling us for months that it was a seemingly insurmountable hurtle…
Bob, GM can’t use this as an excuse. Since GM has chosen to make this program “totally open”, and runs into a problem with the batteries, I expect and hope that others would demand that GM openly asks for and accepts help from the best government and private labs in the country to work together with you to solve the problem.
We must have highway capable electrics. “we gave it a good try” type response just won’t cut it.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:43 am
I know it is very unlikely that I would buy a new car without the capability to charge its batteries at home for most of my typical daily miles. I also wouldn’t buy a new car that had me tethered to my garage charging location for its only source of power. So the Volt concept is the “mother-load” for me.
I think GM may still be underestimating demand for this concept.
How many on this thread WILL NOT BUY A NEW CAR until cars like the Volt are available (and affordable)? You can show your feelings on this by ending your post with the now-famous “NPNS” or No Plug No Sale.
NPNS.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:58 am
So GM wasn’t smart enough to see that production of an electric vehicle was a good idea – until the public reaction told them it was?
Yeah, that seems smart. Did it take public reaction to get you to see that gas was $4/ gallon and maybe we shouldn’t be using as much? Did public reaction clue you into that?
Yeah, I have tons of faith in GM going forward. And I would agree, with those numbers its hard to believe there will be any real quantities of Volts available (even in CA/DC areas) until 2011.
By then, who knows how many manufacturers will have plug-in options.
Knowing what you know about GM and other companies – does anyone still want to bet the Volt will be the first to market in reasonable #s?
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:12 am
#6 Van Says: “When is an independent test driver going to get to evaluate mule performance? If the performance was anywhere near the design goals, why doesn’t GM let the Chevy Volt strut its stuff?”
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Yes, well said.
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:22 am
DC – gas was not $4 a gallon when the proto came out. And remember, for along time many other companies (and media commentators) dismissed the Volt (some still do).
50 mules this year and 100 pre-production next year are pretty good numbers for this stage of development. Things look like they are coming along nicely to me.
There are still a lot of refinements to be done – making sure it performs optimally in every climactic environment, at altitude and under all kinds of use cases. Optimizing the ICE/battery interactions, satisfying all the OBD and other regulatory requirements, etc. but these are all standard development milestones.
We don’t know what progress other companies are making because they are not as upfront as GM has been. But I would be really surprised if anyone beats GM to the market in any meaningful way – Toyota/Nissan may pull a fleet thing off but that is not the same. Same with a Plug-In Prius – having a 10 mile all electric range with an speed limitation due to motor size is just not the same thing as the Volt.
Yet while all looks good there are still things that can come up unexpected – look at Tesla and all their transmission issues. Stuff happens. Funny that Tesla gets all these Kudos for openness yet so many want to pan GM.
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:28 am
#9 JEC Says: “What a load of CRAP! Everyone, take off your GM goggles. Production in 2010 ain’t gonna happen.”
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Well, it may, or it may not, but it looks like GM is doing everything possible to meet the November 2010 schedule.
As for test vehicles built by manufacturing in early 2010, I imagine these will serve 2 purposes:
1) Help fine-tune the Volt’s manufacturing process
2) Get many more test vehicles to help work out any potential issues relating to weather, driving styles, unusual circumstances, etc.
Note that most of the Volt’s behavior is determined by low-level software (a.k.a. Firmware), so it’s quite possible that the Volt’s development team will be fine tuning the Volt’s behavior under various conditions right up to the time of delivery.
If you compare this to a development cycle in the technology sector, the 100 engineering built Volts would be Alpha test units, and the 500 or so manufacturing built Volts would be Beta test units. I wonder if they are looking for Beta testers…
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Personally, I have no reason to buy a new car before plug in technology hits the streets. GM will test their electric Cruze mules for about a year. The E-Cruze will be filmed in action and rumors of the Production Volt “looking just like a Cruze” will be blown out of proportion.
I feel that Motor Trend should NOT be given access to the E-Cruze. Let GM work it’s way through testing and then, when they feel they are happy with the results, release the Volt to the public.
Spring of 2010 will be a very good time to let Motor Trend test the production Volt. This will happen after the 09′ winter/mountain/rain season testing.
And I still feel it’s possible that the out-the-door cost to the buyer (after tax credit) to be right around $30,000. GM can sell E-Cruze, Volt, and E-Camaro in Delta EFlex ICE for a price of $27,000 to $33,000 OTD in high volume and be very happy with the profit. Not to mention the beating that GM’s competitors will take.
no plug =D- no sale
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:35 am
I just hope GM knows what they have now. If they can utilize the Volt technology in their other brands, we will all be able to reduce our use of petroleum products.
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Same here, I live in Rural IL, and would love to test this sucker out!
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:55 am
I liked what Lutz had to say!
A word for the Toyota fans. Yes Maybe They Will Beat GM, but looking at what GM is doing publicly and the using that to beat them quietly is not as great a feat as the gutsy call by GM to let it all hang out
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 8:58 am
9 JEC:
Don’t know. How much do you want to bet that in 2011 there are ? mile AER E-REV Cruze’s?
Mules typically aren’t a brand new drive train in a brand new body style. They are usually established, baselined body styles with the new technology added in like the Malivolts. That is so there is a relatively standard control group.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Hey BOB, aren’t WE here at this site a big part of that public reaction? Lyle has worked his butt off spreading the word about the Volt. I’ve held off on buying that Toyota Prius because Lyle (by posting constantly) has shown me that you guys are serious about offering something far better. We’ve been here for 2 years. I’ve been posting for over a year, and I got a wait list number under 1,000 to prove it. We’re been waiting for you to ask us to the prom. Show us some LOVE baby. Take our waiting list and give us some kind of credit.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Whether my next car is an EREV depends entirely on whether my current Pontiac P.O.S. continues to run, and can be repaired for reasonable money. If it dies, I have to buy something.
When I go on long trips with it, I take the Title in case I have to leave it on the side of the road with the title under the broken windshield wiper. A note will be attached to the title that says “you can have this car if you want it, but I warn you now, it will bleed you to death with a thousand cuts.”
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I watched the video and finally recognized the obvious, which is how open GM has been about the volt. I was not a born GM fan growing up in a Ford family, however, the openness they have shown with the volt project is really impressive. This is a far different approach than Chrysler took and other manufacturers are taking.
GM made a good decision with the openness as it give people the “feeling” they are involved and that they care what we think. Whether they truly care about our “feelings” is another matter completely.
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Wow…its gonna be a LOOONG 3 year wait …
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:08 am
JEC what are you looking for? I’m a mechanical engineer and this seems right on track to me. Engineering currently is building the mules for testing. Next year they’ll put the whole package together with the body and everything.
Then you let manufacturing churn out a few to test the line and make sure things go smoothly. Once the manufacturing line goes on they’ll be making a lot of volts.
This isn’t like the tesla where you have a bunch of guys putting the car together and building 5 a week. This is an automotive line like any other mass produced vehicle. How many solstice’s or vue’s do you think they had before the manufacturing line was up and running?
Yes the volt is revolutionary when compared to a regular ICE, but in terms of manufacturing I don’t think they are doing anything out of the box (that we know of). So all current manufacturing practices apply and they do manufacturing rather well (on par with the industry and any rate).
I’d be interested to know if compared to other cars this is an unrealistic schedule or how you come to your opinion. If it’s just your gut talking then have some tums.
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Bob, the American people have an unquenchable thirst for consumer products that are new, exciting, & based on leading edge technologies.
The Volt will sell, people will buy it, & we really will be able to put a dent in our dependence on foreign oil at least as far as our transportation dependence is concerned.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:09 am
As an American, I’m proud of GM. They showed some real balls on the Volt and put their money where their mouth is. It’s refreshing and gives me some hope. Now if they would just stop looking for handouts…
On another note, I’d sell all my GM stock. Lutz isn’t wearing his pink tie!!!! ;D
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Now that toyota and the world know GMs schedule im sure they will try to ONE UP everyone with something new just to take the glow off GM
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Premise of the volt.. ELECTRIC CAR (use no gas)
Engine/Genset -> primary purpose = range extender (to prevent getting stranded) (uses gas)
Current design -> malibu / cruise frame with off the shelf electronics
EST Deliver date….2011 in limited numers
Engine production: currently approve building PRODUCTION engine plant
1) Basically, i dont see the purpose of tooling up to produce an engine that is basically a back-up system when you dont even have the primary drive train (ie EFlex) in operation.
2) If e-flex actually existed, wouldnt building on that make more sense that building on cruise chassis??
3) A 1.4L turbo charged engine seems quite big to run a generator
(but it would fit perfectly in a cruise; both size and HP)
I am getting convinced this whole “volt” project is a horse and pony show. Use the volt as an excuse to get grants/funding (from the government) and using the money to develop other projects like the cruise.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I don’t know why Lutz keeps talking about failure as though the Volt will never come out. I understand a delay, but if they give up and say “it didn’t work” rest assured another automaker will definitely come out with a RE EV.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding him, and maybe delays are what he’s talking about, but it seems concerning when he mentions the possibility that GM just throws the towel in on the project.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Seems like a very reasonable way to run a business. Who would have thought building the car based on what the public wants could work….. Something like the volt really seems like a no brainer. Gas is cheap so people love gas. Gas is expensive so people start hating gas. Seems pretty obvious.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:40 am
When Lutz says they stumbled on the mother load, maybe what he actually meant is that he or others at GM read Sherry Boschert’s book “Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America” published in 2006. (and those confused because GM marketing prefers to use the term “range extended EV”, that’s simply a synonym for “series hybrid”, just like Volvo’s ECC in 1992 and GM’s prototype in 1999)
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Who here noticed the comment that it was pretty easy to build “volt mules” out of Cruze cars?
Personally I would love it if they removed some batteries and fit everything into an E-REV Cruze with maybe 30 mile electric range. In one shot they would get a FIVE PASSENGER CAR and make it cheaper and still be mostly electric for a lot of people.
Please make a 5 seater ASAP!
Nathan
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:47 am
“Although apparently not planned from the start, it was the public reaction that led GM to pursue production.”
I hope they’re comfortable wearing that hat, because they’re going to get a LOT MORE ‘public reaction’ on the subject. Volt Nation, for certain, will keep encouraging and pursuing — no doubt about that!
Go GM! Git ‘R Done!
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:47 am
#30 THOM
I see it as the Volt won’t be available so soon if they didn’t go with the 1.4L engine. And Volt won’t use the turbo option, as you are suggesting, thus simplifying the system. It’s possible the camshaft will be different in the Volt to optimize the efficiency for certain RPMs. We are talking more of a cash burn if they looked into other generator solutions. I’m more curious if GM is looking into alternative solutions for future generations for a range-extender (like a natural gas engine, which I would buy in a heart beat). As far as the Cruze mules, it is the best solution they have so far since they are the same global Delta platform (same chassis and similar parts). E-flex is the powertrain, not the chassis.
#34 nathan
The Volt and Cruze will have identical chassis, but the T-shaped battery back will take up the space of the middle-rear seat. So a E-Cruze will be a 4-seater as well!
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Why dont they just change the malibu and other hybrids to plugins? I would think that would take less time. They are already doing it with the Prius (Hymotion). Even if we get a fewer initial miles (20-30). We can always plug in at work so we can get back home with out using gas.
npns
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Volt tester available in Central Alberta Canada… You want all the different climates (+ 35 C to – 35 C ).. Snow, Rain, hills, flatland.. Ideal conditions out here.. Let me have a test Volt mule for a year in “real world” conditions and… believe me …. all those engineering and software “bugs” will be found… I drive around 75,000 KMS per year so that would make me the perfect tester… !!
GM … Can you hear me…. over here… That’s me with deposit in hand… !
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:57 am
#30 THOM Says:
1) Basically, i don’t see the purpose of tooling up to produce an engine that is basically a back-up system when you don’t even have the primary drive train (ie EFlex) in operation.
2) If e-flex actually existed, wouldn’t building on that make more sense that building on cruise chassis??
3) A 1.4L turbo charged engine seems quite big to run a generator
(but it would fit perfectly in a cruise; both size and HP)”
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1) GM is tooling up a new plant to build gas engines for smaller American cars in general. Note that these engines are already being produced in Europe.
2) E-Flex is not a car, or a chassis. It’s a architecture for many different types of cars. The Volt is the first incarnation of E-Flex.
3) The Volt uses the normal (non-turbo) version of the 1.4L gas engine with an Atkinson camshaft tuning that makes it much more efficient at the expense of lowering maximum power. The lower peak power of the gas engine doesn’t matter because the electric motor supplies peak horsepower, and the 30% SOC remaining in the batteries can supply the motor with the bursts of power required for acceleration and steep hills. That’s how you get 150hp out of a 75hp gas engine.
As a comparison, the 2008 Prius uses a 1.5L Atkinson Cycle gas engine, and the 2009 Prius uses a 1.8L Atkinson Cycle gas engine.
By contrast, the Cruze uses the same basic 1.4L engine as the Volt, but with a less efficient, higher power Otto Cycle tuning and a turbo-charger.
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September 26th, 2008 at 9:58 am
I’d prefer a version of the volt without the gas range extender. Make the car more affordable and use zero gas. Of course this version in emergencies would have to let you drive past the optimum re-charge point to get to a plug, but I’d be able to get to work and back. The recharge it to make short trips in the evening, then recharge overnight to go to work.
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:01 am
GM learned with the Aztek that the North American public is the WORST source of input on the cosmetic design of new car.
The concept received RAVES on it’s design and when it was on the lots the rags and public bashed it to no end.
They can’t depend on anything the public says.
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I still don’t think GM has any idea of how great a gold mine the Volt is going to be. But, I think they are beginning to get an idea of it. When they do, we may find that production rates are a lot higher than the predictions.
Also, I wish they would stop referring to the generator as a gasoline engine. That makes most people think that it is just another Prius. A gasoline engine needs a transmission and has a much tougher job than a generator. It has to actually drive the car., A generator runs at constant speed and serves only to produce electricity.
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:12 am
#37 Fred Says: “Why don’t they just change the Malibu and other hybrids to plugins? I would think that would take less time. They are already doing it with the Prius (Hymotion). Even if we get a fewer initial miles (20-30). We can always plug in at work so we can get back home with out using gas.”
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First, the Plug-In Prius that Toyota is introducing in 2010 only gets around 8 miles of all-electric range, and then only when you accelerate extremely carefully and travel 60MPH on the highway. In other words, there really is no all-electric range with the Plug-In Prius. A better way to describe the Plug-In Prius, and the Plug-In Saturn Vue for that matter, is to say they get 100-150 MPG for the first 16 miles. This is how they are advertised.
Second, if everyone plugs in at work, our grid will be a total wreck. As EVs and E-REVs become more mainstream, utilities will do everything possible to encourage people to plug in only at night.
Third, you have to realize how much gas a real EV with a range extender will save over a plug-in parallel hybrid. If you use a typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
The Plug-In Prius averages 70 MPG, while the Volt averages 314 MPG. Even if you put a battery the size of the Volt in a Plug-In Prius, you still only a little get over 100 MPG average.
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:19 am
#42 ROBERT M. SPERRY Says: “I still don’t think GM has any idea of how great a gold mine the Volt is going to be. But, I think they are beginning to get an idea of it. When they do, we may find that production rates are a lot higher than the predictions.”
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Yes, I tend to agree. Once people actually understand what an E-REV is, they will migrate over by the millions. GM is right to look at other E-REV models.
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:30 am
#42 ROBERT M. SPERRY
#44 Dave G
I agree as well. Other than the potential of using no gasoline, I’m excited about the potential driving experience with a large electric motor. Instant maximum torque! Low center of gravity for the Volt! I am patiently waiting to hear how the Volt performs. If the critics love it, the Volt will take off even more…
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:36 am
#6 van
When is an independent test driver going to get to evaluate mule performance? If the performance was anywhere near the design goals, why doesn’t GM let the Chevy Volt strut its stuff?
—————
If I was GM….(not speaking from a consumers point of view)
I wouldn’t let anyone drive a mule, a prototype, or even a production car. You get to drive one, when you take possession…or when there is one ‘unsold’ at your dealership (whenever that is).
They have a product that has a monsterous wave of anticipation behind it, everyone has a utopian dream of this car…all they can do it screw it up by letting people/reviewers ‘toot’ around in it.
If you want to wait and make a educated decision and wait until 3rd parties (or yourself) has evaluated it in person…you get to put your money down a year AFTER the deposit/order list opens…you also get to be #124,507 and get your car in 2014
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Other ’stuff; of interest:
GM-Volt.com
Unique Visitors (Aug 2008): 203,764
Percentage change v July: +12.4%
Percentage change v 2007: +43.7%
Average stay: 7mins, 24 secs
/just thought it was interesting
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I put this on the tail end of a old thread, so I don’t know if it will get any views, so I putting it down here as well, as it seems significant:
————
There is a nightmare scenario developing for GM on its ‘loan/bailout’ money that was approved a couple days ago.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080926/AUTO01/809260336/1148/AUTO01
WASHINGTON — The $25 billion in low-cost government loans domestic automakers are banking on to retool plants to build more fuel-efficient vehicles may not be awarded until mid-2010, the U.S. Energy Department said Thursday.
“It appears that DOE is making excuses for its own anticipated failures,” said U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Dearborn, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. “…If DOE is asking for vigorous oversight to ensure it performs its duties, we will be happy to oblige.”
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:03 am
So goes the theory that the EV-1 project naturally led GM to the Volt program. It’s sounds like they had no clue as to the interest in an OPEC defeating device. Where have they been living all these years?
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:09 am
There is a substantial article about the Volt in Autoweek this week. It devotes quite a bit of space to the concept vs. production controversy, but is pretty positive about the styling in the end.
Any ink is good ink!
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
BTW, great comments here bloggers! #18 N Riley & #27 Guy Incognito, just for example. Hey Guy, nice to see you here. I’m even agreeing with you again – where will it all end?
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:17 am
GM has hit a river, and they know it.
They *have* to build the car in order to keep the credit they have. They took a beating after “Who Killed the Electric Car”.
If they don’t build the car, they may as well pack up, and declare bankruptcy, because their credit to build/sell electric vehicles, or fuel efficient vehicles would be lost.
Sink, or swim for GM.
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:18 am
#48, et al, Statik:
In spite of my arguably snarky rejoinder(s?) on yesterday’s thread, I hope that you know that I enjoy and respect your comments and the huge effort which you clearly put into them. Especially those on financial affairs, which I have found especially informative and educational.
What’s the ancient Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times”?
How about $1.9 billion for WaMu? Looks to me like anyone who has any resources left to bottom feed will find some really awesome deals out of this debacle.
Maybe Volt Nation could pool our $ and buy GM. I nominate Statik for CFO. There is enough talent here do do a better job than has been done in the past, IMHO.
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:25 am
#52 noel park
“Maybe Volt Nation could pool our $ and buy GM. I nominate Statik for CFO. There is enough talent here do do a better job than has been done in the past, IMHO.”
Hmmm… I foresee the resident engineers creating a 5-seat sedan that looks like an electric Camaro with the performance of a Tesla roadster. There will be several choices for a range-extender and a pure-EV option. And thanks to nasaman, no faux grill. Total cost of car: $150,000.
Side note: Does anybody remember when Homer designed the car for the everyday man? This came to mind…
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Everyone see this bombshell??
DETROIT — Remember when we wrote that the 2011 Chevrolet Volt would be able to run 40 miles on pure electric power and then fire up an onboard four-cylinder engine to recharge the batteries?
Turns out, that’s not at all true.
In contrast to popular (and our) impression, once a driver uses up his 40 or so miles of electric power, the 1.4-liter gas engine generates electricity to power the electric drive motor, but does not recharge the batteries. After the 40 or so miles, the battery becomes 400 pounds of uselessness, at least until the owner can plug the car into the electrical grid for a recharge. This means that regardless of how far one drives the Volt, the driver will only ever get up to 40 miles of electric-only range.
Our confusion and that of much of the media corps might have to do with the fact that the company once wrote this: “When the battery is depleted, a 1-liter, three-cylinder turbocharged engine spins at a constant speed, or revolutions per minute (rpm), to create electricity and replenish the battery.”
That was from a press release written for the 2007 Detroit Auto Show, where the Volt concept was unveiled. A release from the day of the production prototype’s reveal reads, “a gasoline/E85-powered engine generator seamlessly provides electricity to power the Volt’s electric drive unit while simultaneously sustaining the charge of the battery.” And by “sustaining” GM says that it means only that no additional power is drained from the batteries. Get it?
What this means to you: It’s not a deal-breaker and if you travel less than 40 miles per day, it won’t make any difference. But for the record: The Volt’s gas engine will not recharge its batteries. — Daniel Pund, Senior Editor, Detroit
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=132112#2
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Dave B Post #8 wrote
I couldn’t agree more. This goes to the heart of execs and Wall Street barons caring more about stock options and hiring bonuses than actually increasing the value of their company (ala stock price for the shareholder). The consumer may actually get what they want for a change. And I also concur: If I can’t plug it in, I ain’t buying a new car.
_____________________________________________-
I am continually impressed by the high level of commentary on this board, but marketing is not the forte of most posters. The above was part of a thread making the point that all GM has to do is give customers what they want, and they can do that just by deciding to do so. Is giving the customer what they want following the expressed preferences of most customers? Or is it following the no plug no deal philosophy, which dominates this board. I doubt if even 1% of the public would know what no plug no deal means, or would specify plug-in in thier top 5 requirements.
So do you cater to the informed minority, or the uninformed majority?
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:43 am
#52 noel park
#48, et al, Statik:
In spite of my arguably snarky rejoinder(s?) on yesterday’s thread, I hope that you know that I enjoy and respect your comments and the huge effort which you clearly put into them. Especially those on financial affairs, which I have found especially informative and educational.
Maybe Volt Nation could pool our $ and buy GM. I nominate Statik for CFO. There is enough talent here do do a better job than has been done in the past, IMHO.
———–
Of course, I feel I know you like my own brother (although I don’t have any brothers…don’t read into that analogy too much).
Side note: I’d love to be CFO, although I would probably just hoard up as much cash as possible before C11 and the purging of the board. (which feels alot like what is happening).
Fritz used to be CFO, now COO, but I have no clue who the CFO is…nor do I care to go look and make a ‘huge effort’ to be ‘informative or educational,’ my standards are going waaay down.
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:45 am
#54 Dave B
Everyone see this bombshell??
DETROIT — Remember when we wrote that the 2011 Chevrolet Volt would be able to run 40 miles on pure electric power and then fire up an onboard four-cylinder engine to recharge the batteries?
Turns out, that’s not at all true.
————————
Sorry I got the drop on you on this one:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/25/gm-officially-announces-it-will-open-chevy-volt-engine-plant-in-flint-michigan/#comments
Post #3, we had a pretty good discussion on it later in the thread…if you want to have a ‘boo’
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Tom @ 55 wrote, “So do you cater to the informed minority, or the uninformed majority?”
I think GM has no choice, they go for the most dollars which would be the majority. Certainly the majority would be inclined to buy the more fuel efficient vehicle. Maybe even one that doesn’t burn gas. You are right, marketing is important. And GM will have to inform the customer exactly what it is that makes this thing so special.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
SOLUTION:
Sell an all elecric volt with a 40 mile range (1/4 of what tesla does) so the 90% of the population can have the electric car.
$40K volt minus the engine-generator-complex electronics = $25k approx
The 10% of the population that need the security can go to walmart and buy a 2500watt generator for $500 and charge their batteries when they are at their destination.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Good Day GMV community.
My first post.
NPNS, NPNS, NPNS, to infinity and beyond.
=D- (congrats to the fellow that invented this little symbol)
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I just wanted to throw in my comment to an earlier request:
1) I currently have a 2007 Prius and a 1998 Mazda Protege
2) I’m going to run the Mazda until I can buy the VOLT. When the VOLT can be bought, the Mazda will be retired.
3) I’m sick of the Mazda, but refuse to make another investment while GM has this product actively pursued.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
#54 Dave B Says: (quoting from the Edmunds article) “After the 40 or so miles, the battery becomes 400 pounds of uselessness, at least until the owner can plug the car into the electrical grid for a recharge.”
————————————————————————————–
This is absolutely false. I wish there were some way I could post a correction on the edmunds.com site.
Here is the reality: After the first 40 miles, the 30% remaining charge in the battery is used to deliver peak horsepower to the electric motor for acceleration and/or steep hills. That’s how you get 150 peak horsepower from a 75 horsepower gas engine. The remaining battery charge powers the peaks, so that the gas engine only has to deliver AVERAGE horsepower.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
#59 THOM
Sell an all elecric volt with a 40 mile range (1/4 of what tesla does) so the 90% of the population can have the electric car.
$40K volt minus the engine-generator-complex electronics = $25k approx
—–
Not considering what the market would actually be for a 40 mile range car, I think the cost savings on dropping the ICE and it’s related components would only net around $4K max.
The base cost for a new platform 4 cyclinder engine installed in vehicle on a new GM vehicle would be max $2,000.
——————————————–
#60 Carl Covey
Good Day GMV community.
My first post.
NPNS, NPNS, NPNS, to infinity and beyond.
————
Welcome aboard, but if you live in California, New York, Florida or DC….your not welcome here, hehe.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
#54
Do you see the continious discrepencies comming from the same horses’ mouth??
The volt was a PR stunt that got out of control.
This will be just like the EV1. (250 mules on the road, to selected celebritys, then just go away)
For all you TRUE believers, put your life saving in GM stock. \\\ or make a personal bet with me!
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Who cares if the generator doesn’t charge the battery once it is depleted? That would be a total waste of gas. The losses for charging and discharging the battery would be far higher than running an electric motor directly.
Also, If the charge depletes below 30% or whatever the floor is from a hard acceleration or hill climb, some of the current will be diverted to the battery to get it back up to 30% which is the most effecient way to make the thing work.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
They ’stumbled upon the mother lode’?
Amazing cluelessness
Toyota: Prius is 13th best selling car in the US.
GM: Chevy Aveo
I’d love to buy a Volt if GM can pull it off, but I’m not holding my breath. I’ll be buying the first reasonable plug in that hits the market.
No Plug No Sale Petition:
http://www.pluginpartners.org/whatYouCanDo/onlinePetition.cfm
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
There is also the benefit, in these times, of having a backup. Think of it this way, just recently here in NC we had gas stations TOTALLY sold out. And we still are having that trouble in spots. Yesterday, I spent almost $49 on gas, but none of my driving was outside the 40 miles (20 out, 20 back), just as GM predicts. As such, I could have filled my tank, but then SAVED that gas for when I really needed it later, and in the mean time, if I had a Volt, just used by battery pack for a bit this week. I’d have vastly preferred it as I had to toss another $18 in today.
Add to that the solar roof option, which will NOT charge the battery all at once, I know, but COULD act as a supplemental charger, and I even have emergency short-range transport if both power and gas are out for two weeks, like they were in Fran. In that case, I certainly wasn’t driving much, but I’d still possibly have to run to the hospital. Getting three or so miles a day in the ‘tank’ by parking in the sun would be great. More if I can plug my house panels into it too.
I’m not looking at the Volt as a huge saver at the pump, that money will just be spent on the car payment instead. I’m looking at it as a huge boost to my personal security.
And with the engine/charger debate…who cares? No matter what, one of the two items, the engine or battery, is dead weight depending on what you are running off at the time. I’ll charge the battery very slightly when parked, but I will have to wait till I get home to do a full charge. That’s fine with me. The battery is there to give me 40 super cheap miles, then the engine is there to give me whatever I want to get back home or take long trips. They are both useful, just not running all the time.
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September 26th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
>> A word for the Toyota fans. Yes Maybe They Will Beat GM, but looking at what GM is doing publicly and the using that to beat them quietly is not as great a feat as the gutsy call by GM to let it all hang out.
To be public, they must share real-world data.
Otherwise, all that’s hanging out is the fact that testing is taking place.
Without detail, what’s different from the other automakers? In fact, that applies to those claiming “314 MPG” too. Those are only estimates until there is actual data to support it.
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
This has probably already been discussed at length, I didn’t have time to read all the posts, but what I found fascinating is that Bob has purchased two new ties! GM MUST be financially solvent if Bob Lutz actually acquired replacements for the dreaded Pepto Pink Tie from H***! The production of the Volt in now a sure thing! Financial concerns a thing of the past!
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“=D- (congrats to the fellow that invented this little symbol)”
=D-
Is that what that is a plug! that is awesome!
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
#43 Dave G
you have to realize how much gas a real EV with a range extender will save over a plug-in parallel hybrid. If you use a typical yearly driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
The Plug-In Prius averages 70 MPG, while the Volt averages 314 MPG. Even if you put a battery the size of the Volt in a Plug-In Prius, you still only a little get over 100 MPG average
—————————————————————–
Dave, congrats on a simple but highly realistic model for evaluating PHEV milage, This is the type of model people have to use, even if you quibble with the number of days per year for each distance. You cannot use average miles per day. If I commute 30 miles to work, and average 40 miles per day over a year, clearly a good number of days per year I am going more than 40 miles, and burning some gas.
Now if we can get the EPA to be this smart. Volt will get a proper mpg equivilency rating
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
#62 Dave G
Thank you. It amazes me how the news media continues to have difficulty in understanding this concept.
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
#68 John1701a,
You might want to read this link:
The Volt will be the first car with an EPA rating of 100 mpg.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a2GgcMQbsIcU&refer=us
All will be revealed when the time is right.
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
#12 mikeinati, you got it
———NO PLUG NO SALE—-and this is it !!! =D-
This is so great, go out an tell the world
#52 noelPark, ditto on static, how bout STATIC for President
———NO PLUG NO SALE–=D-
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Since my prior comment is awaiting moderation, let’s try this again for fun,
#68 John1701a,
You might want to read this link:
The Volt will be the first car with an EPA rating of 100 mpg.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a2GgcMQbsIcU&refer=us
All will be revealed when the time is right.
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September 26th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
#43 Dave
This is what i was talking about. See website A123 website. Why cant GM and others do this on their Hybrids as a quick solution?
A123 Hymotion L5 Plug-in Conversion Modules are designed to convert Toyota Prius HEVs into PHEVs that can achieve up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles*
NPNS =D-
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
______________________________________________________
NPNS
______________________________________________________
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Dear Glenn #66,
Thanks for the link to the NPNS petition. I would encourage all to sign up.
Dear Statik #63,
Just for the record, I am from Arkansas. I assume your comment was a “They will get all the volt’s” jibe. Or was it a red-state, blue-state thing?
Proud to be a GMV enthusiast.
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Mike Casey (#72):
Statik doesn’t qualify — he isn’t a US citizen. Were you actually born in the US, Statik?
“dead weight”:
I know I read this here, don’t recall where exactly; when GM was studying the Volt early on, they found more energy losses due to poor aerodynamics than from the additional weight of the E-FLEX system (you get some of the energy back from accelaration with regenerative braking; what you lose to aerodynamics is gone forever).
This was the main reason given for the change from initial concept to “production version.”
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
You guys with your Honda generator suggestions:
Here’s what you do: get a Smart electric or similar EV and come up with a little trailer for a generator and small gas tank. I think some of the California EV1 owners did that. When you know it’s a short trip, leave the trailer at home.
Let us know how that works out for you (I don’t think it could be even a tenth as good a solution as an EREV; but maybe good enough for some folks, who knows?)
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
#74 Carl Covey
Dear Statik #63,
Just for the record, I am from Arkansas. I assume your comment was a “They will get all the volt’s” jibe. Or was it a red-state, blue-state thing?
—————
Yeah, sorry. I should have put a dislaimer up there. California, New York, Florida or DC get to order/buy the Volt first…while we all get to go to those places on our vacation and key their cars.
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
How about a Nutating Engine
[/]
To use as a range extender for a Plug-in?
=D-
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
#77 Statik
Good thing I have a secured garage at work. This DC’er doesn’t want his Volt keyed after waiting for years to own one
NPNS =D-
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
A123 Hymotion L5 Plug-in Conversion Modules are designed to convert Toyota Prius HEVs into PHEVs that can achieve up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles*
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/products/N5_range_extender
I will take my Malibu with this option any day. If i can get it now.
NPNS
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I always find Bob Lutz entertaining, in part just because he’s fun to listen to and in part because he is always good for some insights. The interesting points here would be: (1) the decision to actually produce the Volt was the result of the great response to the concept (Lyle that would include you); (2) the production car doesn’t look like the concept because the concept was just something they threw out there without any real planning; and (3) the transparent production process is a CYA procedure to ensure everyone didn’t say they intentionally tanked the project.
You gotta love it!
#48 Statik
The loans will come through 90% of the time. If not and there is a serious delay I’m sure there would be short term money given that “take out” financing is secure.
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I’m a Prius owner. In fact, I just got my Prius in August. Don’t think I’m a snob….nor is this a game of “who beats who”. I applaud GM for this project, and I hope to God it is successful. Yes, the first few years the car will be expensive, but it should come down over time. Technology will improve, and the chassis can have other bodies placed on it for other models and styles. I also applaud the other companies working in secrecy, or in the open too. ANYTHING that will lessen our dependence on oil and allow us to free from countries that HATE us, but will gladly take our money is a good thing. Whether it be my Prius getting 48mpg (twice of what I got from the car it replaced) or a plug-in car that may use little or no fuel. This is the future, and it must be a success. I’m not going to say NPNS yet, because I’m doing my part already. I’ve reduced my consumption by at least 50% and significantly lowered my CO2 output simply by choosing a car that has an environmental impact. Maybe my next car will be a full electric plug in. I’d like it to be. You never know. But, for now, I love my Prius.
GO GM! GO CHRYSLER! GO TOYOTA!
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
“We had no idea it would be popular” – - Lutz
Go figure. What else do you expect from a company run by a bunch of old fogeys who worship the petroleum gods?
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
#78 (me):
“[/]“
Nutating Disc Engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutating_disc_engine
Potentially multi-fuel, cleaner, fewer moving parts, more power for a given size/weight … and probably a few years out, yet.
on topic:
Who cares how it started, really. The important part is where it can go…
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
#72 Mike Casey
—-#52 noelPark, ditto on static, how bout STATIC for President
#75 Jackson
—-Statik doesn’t qualify — he isn’t a US citizen. Were you actually born in the US, Statik?
———————————
Somehow Mike I don’t think I would be very popular. People like to hear about roses, not thorns below them, lol. With me running, my opposition will paint the country all red/blue (I’m not insane, so I’ll not go on record as to who I think is better)
Jackson (#75) is right though I’m not American born….but my good friend Arnold is working on it for me (=
As point of FYI, I spend some of my life going to university down ’south’ and have status…so I’m not unfamilar, lol.
Side note: I don’t know how anyone but the very rich or very smart can go to a good university. (I’m not saying thats wrong…it is just not the way it works in Canada). I know my family could not have afforded to send me at the time without mortgaging the family home. However, I was lucky enough to have a decent curveball so that paid my way.
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
“We had no idea it would be popular” – - Lutz
Kinda like Bush, when he first got into office everybody was like ya’ he says what he means, this is great.
but……
After a while that gets old and the straight shooter starts to sound like a total moron, or the “i can’t believe he said that” moments become to much to deal with.
(not meant to be political) Just the first guy i think of when i hear lutz say stuff like that
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
#24 Nathan said “Personally I would love it if they removed some batteries and fit everything into an E-REV Cruze with maybe 30 mile electric range. In one shot they would get a FIVE PASSENGER CAR and make it cheaper and still be mostly electric for a lot of people. ”
===========================================
The Volt in fact IS an E-REV Cruze. It is made on the same/adjacent line with many shared parts, and uses the same basic engine.
A problem for GM is that once the initial demand is satisfied, ordinary customers are going to see the Volt and think of it as a Cruze with an unusually expensive options package. I say it is a problem because the iPod dash and plug are going to seem to many as oddities. That is, they will be curiosities that don’t seem worth the high markup.
I can understand GM making the Volt a variant of an otherwise-existing production-line ICE car, just to reduce the costs of bringing it to market. But, at least in hindsight, GM would have done better to make it a variant of a more expensive car, rather than a a car that is bottom-line in its standard ICE version. That’s because the much larger numbers of (visually interchangable) CRUZEs are going to have a big hand in setting perceptions of an appropriate price level for the Volt.
Yes, I know that we here appreciate the powertrain as revolutionary. For better or worse, that part is completely invisible when you look at the vehicle. What one sees is an high-line Cruze. Although I think the Cruze looks fine, it does not look like an expensive car, and I think that is going to be a problem in selling Volts.
It seemed to me that Bob Lutz was in effect apologizing for the Volt’s appearance, and how much different from the concept it turned out to be. I don’t think the appearance is bad, but it is not that of a $40K car (or even $30K). So one has to appreciate the internals to think of the car as worth it, and you have to get that appreciation from somewhere other than looking at it.
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September 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
#89 statik says “Side note: I don’t know how anyone but the very rich or very smart can go to a good university. (I’m not saying thats wrong…it is just not the way it works in Canada). I know my family could not have afforded to send me at the time without mortgaging the family home. However, I was lucky enough to have a decent curveball so that paid my way.”
==============================
Knowing something about this subject, I’d suggest that people apply where they want to go and then see what happens. You never know. People from all income levels go to all those universities.
–> and the curveball still will work magic.
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September 26th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
The scariest thing about this car is that most people, (even educated people on this forum) don’t have a clue about how electricity works, or conservation of energy or any engineering principles.
I can’t tell you how many people actually don’t understand how difficult thing is is to recharge a battery pack as large as the one in the Volt.
Your 5KW Honda generator is not going to do a very good job at it. Certainly not enough to drive in real time. You need a motor nearly as large as the one if it were directly connected to the wheels. And the only reason you can get away with a smaller engine is that the batteries are still helping as you drive.
So it may be semantics, but they ARE being recharged as you drive, just not all the way up to 100%.
It will take many iterations before the general public and even the press understands how this vehicle operates.
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September 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#93,
If you want to get a really scary idea of how few understand energy, look at the forum, where everyone seems to want to attach generators to the axle so it will run the car and turn the generator to run the car forever!
Where were they when ‘perpetual motion’ was discussed in sixth grade?
That’s also a big concern I have, I want the solar roof for supplemental charging in the airport lot, but I am afraid that many people will not realize that at most you’re getting (in real world tests) 3-6 miles extra a day like that. I think it’s only a matter of time before someone buys a solar roof option, then goes back a week later saying “It sat outside ALL DAY but isn’t full yet!”
I guess I’m fortunate to have my home panels for experience, I know what to expect. Most don’t.
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September 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Before the Volt was announced I use to think of GM more in terms of the HISTORY of American car manufacturing.
They had nothing I wanted right now, but I had fond memories of what they had done in the past.
Now I think of GM much more as the FUTURE of American car manufacturing.
I’m looking forward to that future.
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September 26th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I agree with you # 95
But I also want our soldiers to come home. That’s why everyone I know are waiting to buy an electric plug in.
P.S. My motorcycle gets 49mpg, My scooter gets 60mpg.
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September 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
>> The Volt will be the first car with an EPA rating of 100 mpg.
Actual sales are how change is measured, not a label.
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
#64 Thom
“For all you TRUE believers, put your life saving in GM stock. \\\ or make a personal bet with me!”
I don’t know about true beliven or GM loven, but I’ll make this bet and your gonna regret….round the mountain run boys run..
-Two escro accounts
-One you fund
-One the “true believers” fund
-You match the “true believers” fund contributions
-Lyle gets to purchase his Volt from one of the funds.
-If he can purchase a Volt by January 2011, your fund pays and the “true believers” get their money refunded.
-If he can’t purchase, the “true believers” fund pays for your Volt
-No Volt, nobody wins (in many, many ways)
This isn’t a good bet for me since I don’t get compenstated for the risk but I’ll put in $100 comfortable that Lyle get something well deserved out of it. The publicity for the Volt and this site wouldn’t be bad either, if properly promoted.
GM is no prize, but their efforts are real this time.
NPNS!
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September 26th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
RB #91,
“It seemed to me that Bob Lutz was in effect apologizing for the Volt’s appearance, and how much different from the concept it turned out to be. I don’t think the appearance is bad, but it is not that of a $40K car (or even $30K).”
I understand what you are saying and it truely baffles me that car manufacturers and others still don’t “get” why the Prius has been so successful vs other hybrids. Certainly, it was better tech vs Honda’s but not better vs Escape or other synergy drive vehicles. It was the highest mileage practical (2 seater is not practical for many) vehicle and was not easily mis-compared to other vehicles. Invariably, the hybrids get loaded with options standard and then the rags compare them to the cheapest, lowest performing standard version of the vehicle. They also don’t account for resale, among some other things in the cost analysis. People should do retroactive cost analysis and see how hybrids “actually” compared to the most similar standard vehicle. I bet nearly all purchases in the last 6 years will have the hybrid come out has being the more economical choice.
Having said all of this, I disagree that the Volt is the same or similar enough to the cruze. I’m sure some people will make this comparison among others, but it won’t be as well accepted as a hybrid Camry vs conventional Camry for example.
Is the appearance that much worse than a Lexus IS250, Audi A4, Acura, etc? What if the same exact vehicle had a Cadillac crest instead of a bowtie (this first generation should have anyway, IMO)? How much does a 40 mile AER need to “look” like? In other words, what value should be placed on the EREV? The answer is personal, I know, but buyers must place significant value to it or they won’t be purchased. I don’t drive much, but it is easily worth $10,000 to me in the form that GM has proposed thus far. So if the Volt retails for $36,500 and unchy Sam collects $5,000 less from me, then the Volt needs to be equal to a $21,500 or less car for me.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I think most people are straight on the range extended mode of operation now, but just in case read this thread http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-customer-depletion-point/. The chief engineer for the Volt explains how it will function in range extended mode. GM has been explaining it similar for a long time. Only in the very beginning did the comments get made about charging the battery up and implying all energy would go through the battery. This would be a terrible waste and I need someone to explain how it would even be possible to charge and discharge the battery at the same time.
GM has done their homework and has decided on the BEST method to take advantage of this platform. By the way, the battery will still get some charge sometimes from the generator, but only when there is excess capacity beyond the vehicles power demands. It just won’t charage very much before shutting off the ICE.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I concur
And just so we are clear – No Plug, No Sale!
But I will add, if GM is too slow to the punch, I will consider any Range extender electric car.
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
#9 JEC
I think the comment regarding “other manufacturers” that might consider 100 cars a “start of production” was in direct reference to the Tesla. (quite probably drew blood on hos tongue)
According to Tesla’s web-site they have produced and delivered a total of 27 of their EV roasdster.
CN
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September 27th, 2008 at 8:58 am
#99 Koz says “Is the appearance that much worse than a Lexus IS250, Audi A4, Acura, etc? What if the same exact vehicle had a Cadillac crest instead of a bowtie (this first generation should have anyway, IMO)? How much does a 40 mile AER need to “look” like? In other words, what value should be placed on the EREV? The answer is personal, I know, but buyers must place significant value to it or they won’t be purchased. I don’t drive much, but it is easily worth $10,000 to me in the form that GM has proposed thus far.”
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These are good points. Purchasing a Volt would have a different feel if one were going to a Cadillac dealer with an expectation of Cadiallac quality of fit and finish (traditionally very high) than if one were going to a Chevy dealer.
I’m all for E-REV cars coming to a very wide range of people, but generally people like change more when it flows down from the more expensive models, so I think that would be a better sales strategy, too.
I am like you in being interested in the electric powertrain, and I am willing to pay extra to get it. Largely though I am driven by technical interest, rather than need for transportation. As much as I might wish otherwise, most other people do not share that interest.
I think they will look at the Volt as normal people do –> as another car at the Chevrolet dealership that looks like a Cruze (same size and shape), does what a Cruze does (in terms of numbers of people, or may be a little less), has similar performance (adequate), has some nifty gadgets, and costs much more. It is GM that has made the Cruze the point of comparison, and I think that has been a mistake.
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September 28th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
RB,
I don’t doubt that some people will see the two vehicles as similar. Have many people see it this way is very debatable. I do think they look and they are dissimilar enough that they shouldn’t be compared so directly. Hopefully the media won’t compare the base Cruze as an “equal” product to the Volt. GM has to build in finish quality appropriate for a $25K car if the Volt lists for $35-37K. If it is listed higher, it should have Cadillac quality.
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September 29th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Kinda crazy how naive Lutz’s comments where about the reaction to the Volt and “stumbling” onto something big. I am very glad the boulder hit him on the head
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September 29th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Did you know that the 1st electric cars,invented over100 years ago ,running on simple lead acid batteries got 40 miles on a single charge?
Your EV-1, using nickel metal hydroxide batteries got 90 miles on a single charge. You are using lithium batteries and get only 40 miles on a charge? Sounds like the oil companies still have a hold on you. Still, I am very excited about the volt and I hope you are serious. Just remember one thing. I have never heard of the oil companies ever bailing out any of the former american car companies in the past. Do you think they will bail you out if you come into dire straights?
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September 29th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Knowing the history or the lithium battery I am curious as to how you were able to keep yours stable. What happens to a lithium powered car in an accident? Did you do any crash tests to find out?
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September 29th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Wallman #106
“You are using lithium batteries and get only 40 miles on a charge? Sounds like the oil companies still have a hold on you.”
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The Volt battery is only 1/3 the size and less than half the weight of the EV-1 battery. Only 50 % of the Volt’s battery is used for cycle, the rest for redundancy and to be able to offer a 10 year warranty. Hope that sheds some light.
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September 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
GM Management are idiots if the reaction to this came as a surprise.
Did they miss the reaction to the EV1? It was their car!!! When they killed the project (and crushed all the cars) people actually protested…… I guess oil makes excellent blinders.
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I’m not into bells & whistles and I detest any industry that blackmails the public and destroys the economy in the process. Of course I am referring to the evil oil companies. I would like a car that doesn’t require any gasoline at all to operate. How about selling an EV-1 with a Volt body. Then knock off several thousand dollars so the average Joe can afford it. You will be doing a service to your customers, fighting terrorism (no more funding through oil) and saving the planet. ( no more polluting the atmosphere) By the way, how many miles will the Volt travel (in the all electric mode) at highway speed?
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October 2nd, 2008 at 3:18 am
‘He said there was nothing to prepare GM for the reaction it received. After that they told themselves that they have “stumbled on the mother load”’
Oh, please. Except for the GM-esque complications, this is the hybrid design I’ve been describing to friends and family, and anyone else who stood still too long, for the past 20+ years. There’s no new concept here nor has GM finally stumbled on to anything.
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October 3rd, 2008 at 9:29 am
109, the EV reaction? What a bust!! The cars were mandated by California and would’ve about bankrupted GM had it continued. Only a small amount of the California population wanted one, they were unreliable, and they were VERY, VERY expensive. California was right to kill the mandate and GM was right to get rid of such an unreliable vehicle.
The Volt, on the other hand, is being forwarded by GM. I am so impressed with the progress on The Volt and the high probability that they will be rolling out of Hamtramick in 25 months. For GM to have the foresight to develop the concept Volt, even when gas was only $2.09 a gallon, is a testament to their leadeship in future technology. The fact that gas recently doubled in price has only enhanced the Volt’s standing. Now, its looking like we’re heading back under $3.00 a gallon, but the Volt’s value is in its ability to never use gas at all for a high percentage of consumers.
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December 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I have been planning to purchase the Chevy Volt as my next car. In fact, if it werent for that I was planning to design and build my own.
The one thing I would like to see different is how we charge it. Rather than plug it in, I would like to simply swap out a capacitor. INSTANT CHARGE. I can keep spares on my garage wall powering up all day, and/ or I could go to a gas station and trade in a uncharged capacitor for a charged one. Or maybe it could be made to transfer the charge to one onboard, instantly so it will not have to be plugged into a wall over night. Just plug in at a charging station and seoncds later you have a full charge.
Gas stations will not have this option right away, but dealerships should all automatically have the rights to provide the fuel types for the vehicles they sell.
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