House Approves $25 Billion Loan for Chrysler, Ford, and GM
Times are getting tough all around. This has been true for US automakers in particular. GM has been working hard to shore up liquidity to ride the economic downturn, with the hopes of a 2010 recovery and the dawn of the Chevy Volt.
Today the US government gave them a boost.
The House of Representatives approved a measure which was part of a larger spending bill that included the $7.5 billion in appropriations required to allow a $25 billion loan for Detroit.
The low interest loan was authorized to assist automakers in retooling their plants to make more fuel efficient vehicles.
They could get the money early next year when at the same time a similar sized additional $25 billion dollar loan package is expected to be proposed. How and to whom the loan will be doled out won’t be decided until next year.
It is expected to pass the Senate and be signed by the President.
GM spokesperson Renee Rashid-Merem told GM-Volt.com:
“Although the Senate still needs to vote, we are pleased that it is likely the Congress has appropriated full funding for The Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program. Congress clearly recognizes the need to move forward at this critical time to make available this source of capital for automakers and suppliers. Authorized nearly a year ago, these direct, federal loans will support advanced technology development and implementation and will help speed the transition to cleaner, more fuel-efficient vehicles.”
Source (Forbes) (Reuters) (USA Today)
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- White House and Democrats Reach Accord on Loan to GM and Chrysler
- BREAKING: Bush Approves Loan to GM: The Chevy Volt Dream Lives On
- US House of Representatives Passes Automaker Loan Bill
- Leaders of Congress Now Beseech Treasury to Assist GM, Ford, and Chrysler
- Automaker Loan Breakthrough Deal at Hand
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113 Responses to “House Approves $25 Billion Loan for Chrysler, Ford, and GM”
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
I would rather have the government loan to buy one of these vehicles. I mean, a large low interest loan from the government beats any bank loan.
September 24th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Great news, Lyle! And I’m certain your tireless efforts as our “Master Blogger” at gm-volt.com have contributed significantly to making this happen!!! One passionate, dedicated person really CAN make a difference!
September 24th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
What exactly has Ford announced. Are they working on a plug in Escape to even qualify for the loans?
September 24th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
A few billion here, a few billion there, and before long we’ll be talking real money.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
The 7500 $ tax credit for serial hybrids and electric cars, I would like it to be for Hybrids with E85 ICE only. That will force Japanese car makers to start making E85 Hybrids.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Not only are we addicted to oil, but we’re also addicted to spending. Compared to bailing out billionaire bankers I’d rather spend my taxes getting the volts wheels on the road.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
OK, no CEO pay checks until a profit is turned.
Any vehicle built from now on…..without Japanese reliability causes the interest rate to be what any one would pay with a low credit score.
Any American buying one of the vehicles gets zero interest auto loans until the bail outs are paid back…in full.
We get a tax deduction for helping these idiots that have no clue on how to run a business.
Saving Chrysler again is a fckin joke.
Now we can move some metal.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
You’d hope Congress would start demanding more than 10,000 vehicles during the first year in return for these loans. I’m thinking having the Fed or the Treasury negotiate the terms of the financial bailout is a good thing.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Well the big boys have won. Banks get the big bucks and cars get the medium bucks. I bet we will not get much.
Take Care
Arch
September 24th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
#5 ash Says: “The 7500 $ tax credit for serial hybrids and electric cars, I would like it to be for Hybrids with E85 ICE only. That will force Japanese car makers to start making E85 Hybrids.”
————————————————————————————–
It only costs around $100 to add E85 capability to a gas engine car. If we want to force car makers to start making E85 vehicles, then a government mandate is much more effective. Something like: Mandate All New Vehicles are Flexible Fuel Vehicles
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/factsheet_energy_speech_080308.pdf
(top of page 5)
September 24th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Jeffhre #3
What exactly has Ford announced.
*** *** ***
IIRC they announced that they would essentially wait and see what happens with pluggins. They either don’t see the future or are too far in the red to even get started.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
#10 If you are referring to conversion kits, then $100 is not really the amount it takes. They cost around a minimum of 400, not including labor, as I have been researching getting one. See http://www.fuelflexinternational.com/pages/product1.htm#5_&_6_Cylinder_Motors_-_All_models
September 24th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
What’s in it for me? I get to buy a $40k+ car?
September 24th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Ford already delivered to Southern California Edison (utilities company) several plug-in Escape SUVs. They are being tested by Edison as we speak.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Ford also has a new flex that gets 25 highway mpg and seats 7 and they think that’s great, I’ve got a 2004 dodge 1 ton diesel quadcab that gets almost that pulling a 35ft 5th wheel, where can I get a low int. gov. loan for $40,000.00 to buy me a Chevy Volt—————————–NO PLUG NO SALE
September 24th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
#8 DonC
You think more highly of our government then I. If their motives were to advance electric cars there are far more efficient ways.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
I don’t see why everyone is getting so worked up over this money. If anything the government should be helping MORE with fuel saving technologies. We’re in a technology war (that we’re currently losing) and it’s creating jobs in other countries that could have and should have been ours. As if we weren’t getting enough competition from China already.
As far as I’m concerned this money is a direct investment in the country and to our national security. Honestly, 25 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to what these guys should be getting.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
#16 Cautious Fan - “You think more highly of our government then I.”
I was going for satire …. However, I have no idea what the bill extracts in return for the below rate risky loan. My guess is not very much. By way of comparison, the AIG loan is actually pretty good from the taxpayer standpoint since it has a reasonable chance of producing an above average return.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
This is crazy… the National Debt is already insane, and now between $50B here (Lyle said $25B now, $25B next year), $75B for AIG, $700B (more likely $1.3T!!! in the end) to buy BAD debt, no wonder Gold prices are skyrocketing again, our US$ is going to be worthless with all this money we are printing. Dr. Ron Paul was right! The Chinese are going to own us
It’s amazing our capitalistic society is being turned socialistic under a Republican administration! Let the free market work, let the weak die so the stronger can thrive. The US automakers could very well predict cheap oil wouldn’t be forever but they wanted to take the quick profits on building large high profit margin vehicles.
These loans should come with strings…. they should require the companies get rid of their CEO’s that are still running the companies and put them into their current situation, and without the “gold paracutes” that reward them for bad management (and this definitely applies to Rick Wagon(train)).
September 24th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
shame on Detroit, I am suffering from the bad economy and no one assists me, I will NEVER buy any vehicles from Detroit unless everyone else goes out of business
September 24th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Every government handout whether to big institutions or car makers or whomever, increases inflation by driving down the value of the American buck thus making just about everything reduces the consumers ability to spend and causes When third world countries loan us money you know were in trouble.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
I wanted GM to get the loans but…….
After the 1 trillion our finnacial gurus have spent or will spend this month i’m kinda soured on the whole “bail-out” thing!
At least our Govt. will turn a profit on this, assuming GM dosen’t go chapter 11!
Is it me or does it seem like were headed for a serious longterm recession? With the more money our Govt. throws at it the longer it will take to get here but the harder/longer it will be.
I guess there is no such thing as perpetual growth?
No offense to the baby-boomers, but you’ve made my Generation (X) debt slaves for life!
9 Trillon
In the words of the biggest douche ever Don Rumsfeld:
“to me the numbers are so large their almost confusing, and i find it easier to ignore them”
September 24th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
I was shocked to learn tonite that one of the newest Chevrolet dealerships (they claimed to be the largest Chevy dealer in the US) was shut down by creditors today. Bill Heard Chevrolet is on I-4 only a few miles from my home in the greater Orlando area, which for decades has been one of the fastest growing areas of the country …..and virtually recession proof. Tonite’s 11PM news also reported that GM had finally just found a source of credit at 7% interest (about twice what they normally pay) that will allow them to “stay in business”.
Good Grief, when 1) GM’s largest Chevy dealer fails and 2) the corporation itself has trouble getting operating capital, this $25 Billion industry assistance loan will be none too soon!!!
Hey statik, should I plow up the back yard, plant a garden and maybe even get a few cows, chickens, pigs, etc???
September 25th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Alan Pizzy #20
When someone buys something made in America it helps the American economy and every worker in America. When we buy something from Japan or China it helps those economies. If Americans won’t buy American products there won’t be an American economy to gripe about.
This is why the government is helping out the American car makers and not the Japanese.
If union demands over the last 50 years hadn’t been so expensive then maybe the America car makers could have produced better cars for less money and have remained on top.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:35 am
Folks, if we don’t start working on the real underlying problems we will be putting ointment on rashes until we can no longer afford the medicine!
The main problem is our debt and the horrible financial management of our country. We can’t afford to keep spending like we have been on wars, imported petroleum, etc. without getting good returns. The wars we are now engaged in will never pay for themselves and we waste energy like it grows on trees. Who the hell is running this show?
Here is what I suggest:
1) Get a handle on our energy policy. We cannot keep sending out so many hundreds of billions of dollars every year on energy that we simply waste. This is just sending our wealth overseas (and even to Canada).
2) Balance our budgets. Read my lips… Balance our budgets!
3) Embark on massive energy conservation programs. We waste like nobody on earth. This includes hybrid cars, BEVs, smaller cars, improved gas mileage standards, better building codes, etc. Thankfully, the recent rise in oil prices is doing the job for us. However, we need to make it a country mission.
4) Get out of the petrol dollar game. Oil is over! We need to pull the plug on this beast. It will take a long time and we need a great plan but we must do it. We cannot grow our economy by relying on growing oil supplies. We have learn how to squeeze more juice out of the same number of lemons (or fewer lemons).
5) If we are going to be spending so much money we must make sure it’s improving our infrastructure. Giving money to people so they can buy another toy made in China is going to kill us. We need to stop wasting time on short-term fixes that make politicians look good.
6) We need an energy plan (The Apollo Energy Plan). How can we fix this mess without a plan? You tell me. Let’s huddle up!
7) Change our thinking. Going “green” is not going to cost us money. It’s going to save us and make us richer.
With the price of oil hitting all time highs this summer and now all of this unbelievable daily news about massive bail-outs I have one last thing to say… The shit has hit the fan.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:47 am
19 Jeff M: The US automakers could very well predict cheap oil wouldn’t be forever
They could have predicted cheap oil wouldn’t be forever, but nobody imagined it could go up in price so fast!
September 25th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Texas #25
“Embark on massive energy conservation programs. We waste like nobody on earth. This includes hybrid cars, BEVs, smaller cars, improved gas mileage standards, better building codes, etc. Thankfully, the recent rise in oil prices is doing the job for us. However, we need to make it a country mission.”
*** *** ***
AMEN!
September 25th, 2008 at 12:58 am
#23 nasaman
See, this is why you need Statik! LOL Had you asked, he probably could have told you that Bill Heard Chevrolet has been on the critical credit list for a few months now, so it’s not completely surprising. AFAIK there are a handful of others but it’s not an epidemic. However, having said this, keep in mind that the number of dealers has been slowly shrinking and that will probably not change. The credit crunch is simply accelerating the process.
#26 Gary - “nobody imagined it could go up in price so fast”
Actually because both supply and demand are inelastic, it will ALWAYS happen this way. (If you think about it, oil has dropped 50% in the last six weeks or so). What Lutz says is not that it went up so fast but that it went up so soon.
September 25th, 2008 at 1:14 am
#24 Ed M
I agree, I fault the overpaid union worker for most of the demise of the big 3 automakers. I mean some guy with like a high school education making more than me with my masters degree just makes me mad. Not to mention all the student loan debt I have
Dont get me wrong, Unions serve a purpose. Especially before organizations like OSHA to protect some guy in a coal mine from some heartless robber baron. But it seems more like they got greedy and want more money for less work.
I just hope GM can keep the union under control and produce this car. I want to be free from oil. No plug no sale! I also have no brand loyalty. The first one to get a quality product gets my business. Though, Ive got to give GM props for being the first to get the idea going
September 25th, 2008 at 1:20 am
25 Texas: The main problem is our debt and the horrible financial management of our country. We can’t afford to keep spending like we have been on wars, imported petroleum, etc. without getting good returns. The wars we are now engaged in will never pay for themselves and we waste energy like it grows on trees.
I totally agree! Being Canadian, this may be too easy for me to say, but can’t the U.S. simply stop wasting soooooo much money on the military and occupying other countries? If there is the issue of “unemployed” soldiers as a result, can’t they be put to work in factories on U.S. soil so all the crap you buy from the Dollar Store doesn’t have to come from China?
Redirect some of the military dollars towards education instead… AND “marketing” being smart and hard-working as a good thing like it is in industrious overseas countries. As it stands right now in the eyes of the American teen generation, “cool” people are: stupid (e.g. your typical Rap artist), repugnant (e.g. your typical Rap artist), and glamorize making easy money and buying material goods without thinking about the “big picture” (e.g. your typical Rap artist who writes songs about drugs and killing so he can buy a fancy imported car). There are plenty of drug pushers in my town that drive pimped-out SUVs because they want to be just like these so so-called “heros”. At least they usually buy American SUVs.
September 25th, 2008 at 2:01 am
The government should be supporting our industry’s.
Its about time
I am the only person on my street with a Ford and everyone else has Honda comes over and says when are you getting a Honda.
I am like OH hell no. My ford explorer has 220k on it and runs perfectly where the neighbors Honda had two transmissions in 150k.
OR tired of Consumer Distorts getting donations from Toyota
I told the neighbor so your buying Japanese and making there country richer for what reason? and he works for congress.
I hate Toyota lobbyists to in DC they are totally corrupt. Toyota spends 10 times what GM does in Washington to keep the laws on there side . IF it was a fair world we could sell cars in japan.
September 25th, 2008 at 2:33 am
Um, We can and do sell cars in Japan. However, the Japanese don’t like them very much. BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Mini cooper, etc. sell very well. They can buy Xbox 360 as well but don’t. However, they just love Apple! Everywhere. I mean everywhere.
September 25th, 2008 at 4:43 am
One of the problems is that American business turned their backs on American workers a long time ago. You buy American and you don’t know what it is going to say when you turn it over. American scientists and engineers have not been treated as professionals, but like menial labor. The importing of non-citizen engineers and scientists (h1b visas) was done initially to hold down the pay of the citizens. It backfired, now people don’t think it is worth the investment in time and money to become engineers and scientists. Where does that leave us?
Washington and Wall Street have bankrupted this country. It is highly likely that America’a time in the sun is over.
September 25th, 2008 at 4:44 am
O.K. Texas #25……You want the plan….I got it ….Most people think it will hurt,…. but ……NO PAIN NO GAIN…….READY….Tax the gas $1.00/gal. for the next 4 years. This nets us $730 billion. Use this money to rebate $20,000 to EV & E-REV buyers who also install enough alternative energy to power there car that first 40 miles each day. After 4 years increase the gas tax….Keep the plan going until we have 250 million EV’s/E-REV’s on the road….TOTAL REBATE …. $5 Trillion…..Now that’s a rebate!!!!!
September 25th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I can’t believe all the wingnuts still hyping E85. When are you going to get it through your heads that E85 is a scam, just like the promised “Hydrogen” economy. There are no E85 gas stations around so making all those “flex fuels” vehicles is a scam by the automakers to get around the dumb green requirements passed by and even dumber congress (wait! maybe they are not so dumb, since a lot of them are getting kickbacks from the E85 scam). And even if refiners were inclined to make significant amounts of E85, by the time there would be enough E85 produced and stations to carry it to make any difference, it will be a moot point since battery technology will have evolved to make both E85 and hydrogen obsolete.
September 25th, 2008 at 6:48 am
#12 jediwompa Says: (on E85 mandates) “If you are referring to conversion kits, then $100 is not really the amount it takes.”
————————————————————————————–
No, I was referring to the additional cost of $100 to add E85 capability when the car is manufactured.
Right now, less than 5% of all cars on the road are E85 capable. With this in mind, if I were a gas station owner, I would not offer E85, as the demand would be too low.
Now let’s say the U.S. government mandates that all new cars are flex fuel by 2012 model year. Most car makers would start ramping up more E85 models before then. By 2014, I would guess 30% of all cars on the road would be E85 capable. At that point, I were a gas station owner, I would start to look into offering E85, as the potential demand would be real and growing.
September 25th, 2008 at 6:54 am
This loan package is of course not the same as the tax credits discussed yesterday. Some comments on the loan package from the 9/25 WSJ are
“Once the legislation passes, the Department of Energy would have two months to promulgate its own regulations, governing how and when auto makers and suppliers can apply for the loans and what criteria the government will use to approve those loans.
The basic rules as currently written, however, appear to restrict considerably the kinds of projects the auto makers could use the money for. The guidelines were set down in last year’s energy bill that authorized the $25 billion in loans, and that bill states the money can only be used to overhaul plants that are at least 20 years old and will be upgraded to make vehicles that offer about a 25% improvement in fuel economy over similar models in their class.
Auto makers want the rules loosened to allow more leeway on how they can use the money.”
September 25th, 2008 at 6:56 am
This explains inmlarge part Chrysler’s rush to announce its EV program: to qualify for the loans.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:00 am
#35 OzoneLevel Says: “When are you going to get it through your heads that E85 is a scam, just like the promised “Hydrogen” economy.”
————————————————————————————–
E85 is not a scam. There are 2 problems with E85, both of which are easily solvable:
1) Despite the hype of car manufacturers, only a small percentage of new cars sold today are E85 capable. It only costs car manufacturers $100 to add E85 capability to a gas engine car. If a significant percentage of cars on the road were E85 capable, then gas station owners would have a reason to sell it.
2) Somehow, somebody has convinced the majority of the American public that ethanol is only produced from food crops. This is, in fact, the worst way to make ethanol. For example, switch grass and algae are both at least 10 times more efficient and cost effective than corn. President Bush even mentioned switch grass in his state-of-the-union speech a few years ago.
Also, when you look at battery technology, the average improvement is around 9% per year. Given that E-REVs are only starting to become economically viable in 2010 and beyond, my guess is that pure battery vehicles for the masses are a long, long ways off. In the mean time, we need E85 for E-REVs.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:01 am
A few comments from a much longer article in the Financial Times
“The automotive loans are separate from the proposed $700bn bail-out for the banking sector, which is still being debated in Congress. The Senate is expected to add its approval to the motor industry package in the next two days.
The industry’s case has been helped by the fact that Michigan and Ohio, the two states most dependent on the car industry, are key swing states in the November 4 presidential election.
Executives of General Motors, Ford Motor and Chrysler and their suppliers have lobbied heavily for the loans. Both presidential candidates, John McCain and Barack Obama, have expressed support.”
September 25th, 2008 at 7:07 am
What a waste of money. We have public schools in disarray, our roads and bridges are falling apart, our military is stretched about as thin as it can get - and loaning $25B to car companies was deemed the next best use of our tax money. Fantastic.
The current Congress seems to get high on spending as much taxpayer money as fast as they can. My grandkids will look back and be real happy about that I’m sure.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:16 am
#41 DC says “The current Congress seems to get high on spending as much taxpayer money as fast as they can. My grandkids will look back and be real happy about that I’m sure.”
==================================
The Presidential candidates and their parties are focused on who will win the November election. Grandkids will not be voting if they are young enough to still be going to public school. Auto workers in Ohio and Michigan will be voting, and in critical states.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:20 am
If we crash into a second Great Depression, our $40,000 hopes of electric drive will be unattainable for more than just me.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:21 am
#41 DC Says: “What a waste of money. We have public schools in disarray, our roads and bridges are falling apart, our military is stretched about as thin as it can get - and loaning $25B to car companies was deemed the next best use of our tax money. Fantastic.”
————————————————————————————–
If our economy collapses, there will be a lot less tax revenue for schools, roads, and military.
If our economy doesn’t collapse, the $25 Billion in loans to car makers will most likely be repaid, and the $700 Billion in risky mortgages will be sold off (perhaps at a profit).
God knows what will actually happen, but the second scenario sounds much better to me.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Please read this article to understand how GM is pulling the wool over our eyes.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=132112
GM lies and scams and pretends to innovate—yet in the end, our tax dollars are being sent to prop up companies that should go under because instead of meeting the needs of society, they bob and weave and send the public mistruths and half-answers.
The way I see it, we will pay THREE TIMES for inferior technology to what is already out there in the form of EVs and foreign technology hybrids.
1) We’re taxed to death to support domestic carmakers who perennially underachieve..
2)We who buy a Volt or Tahoe hybrid, Escape Hybrid, Aspen or Durango hybrid will pay HUGE prices to save very little at the pump.
3)We pay a third time by giving the government the means to give out mpg incentives on hybrids sold by American companies.
ReVOLTing!
September 25th, 2008 at 7:54 am
#13 ThombDbhomb
What’s in it for me? I get to buy a $40k+ car?
————
I ‘gaffawed’
Don’t put it so clearly, hehe.
September 25th, 2008 at 8:09 am
#23 nasaman
I was shocked to learn tonite that one of the newest Chevrolet dealerships (they claimed to be the largest Chevy dealer in the US) was shut down by creditors today. Bill Heard Chevrolet is on I-4 only a few miles from my home in the greater Orlando area, which for decades has been one of the fastest growing areas of the country …..and virtually recession proof.
Good Grief, when 1) GM’s largest Chevy dealer fails and 2) the corporation itself has trouble getting operating capital, this $25 Billion industry assistance loan will be none too soon!!!
Hey statik, should I plow up the back yard, plant a garden and maybe even get a few cows, chickens, pigs, etc???
————–
#28 Donc
#23 nasaman: See, this is why you need Statik! LOL Had you asked, he probably could have told you that Bill Heard Chevrolet has been on the critical credit list for a few months now, so it’s not completely surprising. AFAIK there are a handful of others but it’s not an epidemic. However, having said this, keep in mind that the number of dealers has been slowly shrinking and that will probably not change. The credit crunch is simply accelerating the process.
—————
You know, I was going to post on this…but new, ‘more positive’ me passed lol. Fair game now right? Heeh.
First as a point of interest. Bill Heard has/had a chain of 15ish dealers…well, I guess he was down to 14 at the time of closure. He is also one of the biggest a-holes of cardealers.
I’m sure alot of people have following the circus of Bill Heard from time to time. My ‘favoUrite’ is his being sued by Georgia for mailing out 9,500 recalls notices on cars he sold, complete with a bogus “Program Heardquarters” in California (that didn’t exist). The famous mantro, “Get them in, make them pay”
He is also famous for ‘the coupon book,’ which he basically wrote right into deals and forced customers to pay. (State got him on that one a few years back too). Of course he has the normal, false advertising, falsifying incomes,
Check the ripoff report for all the fun times at Bill Heard…very entertaining:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchResults.asp?q1=ALL&q2=&q3=&q4=&q5=bill%20heard&q6=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search!&r=1
part 1/2
September 25th, 2008 at 8:24 am
DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT MORE DEBT…
These political prostitutes can’t say NO!
September 25th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Part 2/2
Bill Heard/Nasaman plowing up the back yard
(I like to break up long posts)
—————-
So why does/did GM put up with this all this time. Does GM condone this kind of behaviour? Well GM had sent him some nasty letters, lol.
Bill Heard’s nickname was “Mr. Volume,” and GM would put up with whatever he did. Bill Heard’s Sugar Land is often the top/second largest Chevrolet dealership.
Overall the 13 or 14 remaining dealerships netted over 2 billion in sales. Basically 1 in every 70 cars that GM sells…were off of one of his lots.
Ironically, the punishment for all this shady practice? Nothing. The official statement from Heard on the closure is this:
“….rising fuel prices, a product portfolio of mostly heavy trucks and sport utility vehicles, economic recession, unfavorable local market conditions for vehicle sales, the crisis in the banking and financing sectors, and other factors all combined to create a business environment in which the company simply did not have the resources needed to continue to operate.”
(moral of the story, if your going to cheat…cheat big)
/2,700 employees
This is significant development to GM’s bottom line. (GM can take over the dealerships while they look to sell them…but if Heard couldn’t turn a buck…GM certainly will be a loser)
——-
Nasaman, “Hey statik, should I plow up the back yard, plant a garden and maybe even get a few cows, chickens, pigs, etc???”
Probably, lol. (Not literally of course, but you’d be wise to be overly conservative…what does it hurt to take some things ‘off the table’ for a few months/year?)
September 25th, 2008 at 8:30 am
If it’s of any interest and back on topic. Consensus seems to be that GM will net around 6 to 6.5 billion on this ‘loan pie’
http://www.billheard.com/Pages/Page.cfm?pageid=86139&pagetype=26&featureid=-1
hehe
September 25th, 2008 at 8:31 am
#5 & #10-
E-85 is a joke! I live in the midst of several ethanol plants & they are all going broke! Ethanol will die a natural death because it’s a worthless fuel. Costs too much to produce & returns very little in the form of power. Do some looking into the financials & see that even a federal subsidy isn’t keeping these ethanol plants viable. Verasun lost 60 MILLION last QUARTER!! There are dozens of other smaller players whose value is all but gone. Lots of investors in the red!
They’d be better off producing high quality booze!
BDP
September 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Statik,
1,000 (often very interesting) comments !
Congratulations,
JC
September 25th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Post #3
The 7500 $ tax credit for serial hybrids and electric cars, I would like it to be for Hybrids with E85 ICE only. That will force Japanese car makers to start making E85 Hybrids.
—————————————————————————–
Haven’t you heard? Ethanol/E85 has been discredited as an alternative fuel solution.
In the US ethanol is made from corn. Ethanol has already driven up food prices, although it has just barely begun to penetrate the market. It takes almost as much energy from fossil fuel to make ethanol as the ethanol has. Ethanol is sold and priced by the gallon, even though it has barely half the energy content of gasoline. Ethanol is terribly expensive to produce. The cost is hidden in massive government subsidies needed to pay for the small amount of ethanol we produce. Ethanol cannot be transported by pipeline because of its physical properties, so every gallon must be trucked over the road, burning up, you guessed it, more fuel. If you beleive in MMGW, ethanol is no solution, by weight it is mostly carbon, and yields CO2 when burned.
The two alternatives to corn based ethanol are both unviable:
Cellulosic ethanol. Exists in chemistry books and laboratories. There is no process to produce it on a mass scale. If a mass process for producing cellulosic ethanol could be developed, it might be a good alternative, but there is no guarentee this will happen.
Suger cane ethanol. This is made in Brazil. They burn down the rain forest, and plant sugar cane. If we adopted sugar cane alcohol, we would be dependant upon imported fuel.
The way ahead is not ethanol, it is PHEVs. PHEVs use so little fuel that our domestic supplies of gasoline will last for generations, and will be burned so slowly that atmospheric CO2 will stablize. When our great grand children use up the oil, they will dip into natural gas. Long before the gas is used up, there will be BEVs with quick charge stations on every highway.
September 25th, 2008 at 8:57 am
#51 BDP Says: “E-85 is a joke!”
————————————————————————————–
Ethanol from corn is a joke. I have no idea why the U.S. keeps following this path. It’s a dead end.
But expanding this to say that E85 is a joke, that’s just false. Look at Brazil.
September 25th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Lyle,
Take the comment #2 of Nasaman and make it mine too.
Thanks to your efforts, we are still around and see the probability of a differentiated supply in car propulsion systems increasing from month to month.
So NP=NS becomes more and more realistic.
LGAEREVWOTR ASAP !
September 25th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Statik,
1,000 (often very interesting) comments !
Congratulations,
JC
————-
Is that right? Thanks…and ‘ouch’
…I didn’t know there was a counter.
(Wonder what I’m doing wrong, lol…I’m probably missing out on some uber GM-Volt.com flash game as well)
September 25th, 2008 at 9:00 am
These are not bailouts
Warren Buffett said he would put up the 700 billion if he had it, and the gov’t is going to make a fortune off the AIG deal over 8%
These loans are just an investment in American jobs and our own economy, we must get back to some industrial economy and losing the Auto industry is not the right thing to do. This 25 billion is just a loan and I have every confidence the money will get back to the American Treasury from GM Ford & Chrysler.
September 25th, 2008 at 9:02 am
at number 35
Wake up and look outside your own state. I live in Des Moines and we have e-85 everywhere - I ran a Chevy s-10 for 100,000 miles on only e-85, my mom drove her Taurus on e85. In Minnesota, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Illinois, Wisconsin, and here in Iowa there are lots of e85 stations. That means we grow our own fuel here, and it does not need to be transported very far (like over the atlantic) to be used by the end users.
E85 although not perfect - is a good addition to our energy portfolio, and when i fuel my volt on e-85 for my 200 mile road trip I will know that I have not funded forign oil regimes…
Also - what is the main BYPRODUCT of ethanol production…. Animal Feed - which is where the corn was originally going to be used. Ethanol is not using crops that humans eat - that is a different type of corn than what we use for animal feed. High transportation (fuel costs) costs and inflation is the reason for skyrocketing food costs.
September 25th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Post #39
For example, switch grass and algae are both at least 10 times more efficient and cost effective than corn. President Bush even mentioned switch grass in his state-of-the-union speech a few years ago.
—————————————————————————–
Anybody can sit in front of their computer and type out words that switch grass and algae are efficient and cost effective, but that does not make it so. If these methods of making ethanol are 10 times more efficient than corn, why are there no plants on line doing this? The dozens of production class US ethanol plants use corn, for the reason explained in my post.
Ethanol is not a scam. It is simply an alternative fuel which is not the cheapest solution in any conceiveable scenario. It provides huge benefits to corn farmers, recipients of government subsidies, and the politicians who pass out the goodies.
September 25th, 2008 at 9:28 am
#59. Tom
I forsee local/regional bio fuels being used in the future, it may be corn in the midwest until a cheaper more efficient crop like switch grass is being planted. My understanding is even forest waste can be used in the Northwest as the source of bio fuels.
It will change as we ween ourselves off the foreign products. I still love the electric option with these crops fueling electricity plants
September 25th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I am glad the automakers are getting some low interest money. They need the help of the American people. I also agree with what TEXAS said about the need to conserve and get plans on the books to improve our economy, etc. We depend on our congressional leaders and the President to set policy, but they need to hear our voices. If we don’t speak out, they set policies we may not agree with. We all need to watch what congress and the President is doing and follow up with them when we can by email, letters or by meeting them in person. We have to start somewhere. Organizations like “American Solutions” (www.americansolutions.com) and others like it are ways to communicate together and let congress and the President know our wishes.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
This bailout should be conditioned on forcing the Big Three to stop selling their biggest SUVs, immediately. Because otherwise they’ll just (with the possible exception of Ford) go back to the days of hoping gas prices will go back down.
As it stands, we’re taxing ourselves to support automakers who fought fuel economy regulation, sought and GOT preferential regulatory treatment for the worst vehicles on the road, and in the process enriched the people who are trying to kill us. Nice work, superpatriots.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:12 am
#35 Ozonelevel:
The E85 compatibility requirement would create a market for alcohol fuel. It would not just be ethanol from corn. It could also be ethanol from switchgrass, or from Brazillian sugar cane, if they would drop the tarriffs It could be methanol from coal. Right now the producers don’t see a market.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
We can talk about alternative fuels until the cows come home. Up to now alternative fuels or better, alternative energy sources, have mostly been methods to soak up federal grants totaling many billions of dollars. Very little benefit has been produced from the billions of taxpayers money spent. I am not saying we should not invest in new technology, but I do say we should monitor those programs much more than we do now. If a program is not “going anywhere”, it should not be funded. Congress needs to get off the “kick” of funding every “Tom, Dick and Harry” program (my apologies to Tom, Dick and Harry). We waste so much taxpayer money that we should be ashamed to continue electing the same money wasters to congress. We need to pay close attention to our nation’s business.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
For all who read this drivel:
45 Melvin: Please read this article to understand how GM is pulling the wool over our eyes. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=132112
GM lies and scams and pretends to innovate, blah, blah, whine, whine
…Read this instead!
http://jalopnik.com/5054642/chevy-volt-engine-wont-recharge-batteries-while-driving-just-a-regular-plug+in-hybrid
It would be stupid for the volt to recharge its batteries because running the gas engine to recharge them costs 10 times as much as plugging it in when you get home. On top of that, electrical resistance losses used to put electricity into the battery, and then take the electricity out again does not make efficency sense.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Statik #56
You do’nt ?
Well on the home page, center column, going downwards, after the most popular posts.
Noel Park is first with 1,200 comments : way to go …
September 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
My congratulations to Statik for reaching a milestone only three others have reached - 1,000 comments on this site. Congratulations to Noel Park (1200), Rashiid Amul (1071) and Grizzly (1022). We have read and enjoyed many of your comments over the past 18 months or so. We expect to continue enjoying them for the next several years as we see our dream of the Chevy Volt come to life. Thank you, gentlemen, for your contributions. You four stand with Lyle as beacons for the rest of us to follow.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:38 am
There were 5 Bill Heard dealerships in the Atlanta area, where he advertised heavily as “MISTER BIG VOLUME!!!” (on the radio, at a ‘big volume’
). We had front row seating for a lot of the shenanigans.
This is the kind of thing that it will take GM many years to live down, even if the Volt / E-FLEX program meets with huge success. GM should have spread the no-haggle Saturn model across all of it’s dealerships.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:39 am
#59 Tom H - “Anybody can sit in front of their computer and type out words that switch grass and algae are efficient and cost effective, but that does not make it so”
Unfortunately so true. OTOH that was the rap on solar and EVs as well, the point being that technological advances and market conditions can turn solutions that aren’t cost effective into ones that are. You can’t dismiss an alternative simply because it hasn’t yet been implemented.
When you think about it you really have to love algae. If it could work it’s a very good alternative. It grows fast in small spaces and can clean up all kinds of things you want to get rid of, like nitrogen and carbon. Given some more advances, a cap and trade system might make it economically viable. Also remember that it’s taken a hundred years to get to where we are now with the technology for oil and gas drilling, so it’s reasonable to expect great progress in the technology needed for alternative fuels, which at this point is primitive.
In this regard, I don’t see EVs and alternative fuels being inconsistent. I think the Volt shows they’re complementary.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:45 am
IF GM Goes so does the country.
As they say GO USA we need to start building again.
The home boom is over without industry we will be in poor shape.
People stop buying foreign cars, they are not better at all its just marketing and consumer distorts.
Oh and BTW we are not allowed to sell many cars in japan there is like a limit of 10k cars so we need to start limiting toyota as well if we want to keep fair trade in place.
G
September 25th, 2008 at 10:58 am
#66 Jean-Charles Jacquemin
Statik #56: You do’nt ?
Well on the home page, center column, going downwards, after the most popular posts.
Noel Park is first with 1,200 comments : way to go …
—————-
Oh, ok. I thought I was missing some fancy plug-in or something. That noel park is such a loser, he must just sit in front of his computer all day…hasn’t he got anything better to do.
/wave noel
(=
——————
#67 N Riley
My congratulations to Statik for reaching a milestone only three others have reached - 1,000 comments on this site. Congratulations to Noel Park (1200), Rashiid Amul (1071) and Grizzly (1022). We have read and enjoyed many of your comments over the past 18 months or so. We expect to continue enjoying them for the next several years as we see our dream of the Chevy Volt come to life. Thank you, gentlemen, for your contributions. You four stand with Lyle as beacons for the rest of us to follow.
—–
N Riley (922) - It will only take another day or two for you to get into the exlusive, ‘too much time on your hands club’…actually I like your terminology better, ‘Beacons!’ — nice.
—–
Side Note: JC- by pointing that out you have probably start some kind of weird competition that will be taken up by ‘133tVoltd00d37′ and ‘ub3rn355′. We can look forward to alot more ‘FIRST!’ posts.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Eisemann-theater #70
I’d have to agree. I’d say that the bailout of any of the big 3 is more important than Bear-Stearns or Lehman. Acquisitions could take care of the smaller financial institutions, but GM and our domestic auto companies are now center on our quest for energy independence. Selling these off to foreigners is not the way to go and is the reason there is (was?) a limit on foreign ownership of our domestic airlines. We need to be smart and take care of ourselves.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
47, 49, 50 Statik………THANKS! …..the Bill Heard Chevy dealer collapse was interesting (but distressing) reading! Now I see why Ed Peper, the GM of the Chevy Division that I met at VoltNation, has lost so much hair! I’m glad I’ve been doing business only with Saturn dealers for the last two purchases.
Guess I’ll hold off on the cows, pigs & chickens for a while & start small with a WWII-like victory garden in the back yard.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
#71 Statik
I am only trying to emulate the “great ones” on this site. If I ever reach the 1,000 comment mark, I will wonder how did I ever find the time or nerve to comment so many times. I can only hope I have made some helpful comments. I know that I would like to take some of them back. Sometimes I go off track and get up on my “soap box”.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
#66 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
Thanks. Actually, I have been trying to cut back lately, as I don’t want to look quite so compulsive. I have been patiently waiting for someone to pass me up, but no such luck so far.
I do continue to do my best to read all of the comments, however. This is an awesome group of bloggers, and there is a lot to be learned.
#67 N Riley:
Thanks for your kind words. Likewise, I’m sure. Your comments are always thoughtful and courteous. I always stop to read them very carefully as I slog through the ever increasing number of comments every day.
#71 Statik:
As we used to say in grammar school, “It takes one to know one, and you know ‘em all!” I have high hopes that you will be the one to remove me from the embarrassing position of being the most compulsive blogger here.
Where is Rashiid BTW? He was making a big run at it, but I haven’t seen anything from him in the last few days. I hope he didn’t do anything crazy, like take a vacation and miss several days of GM-Volt.com!!!!
BTW, wasn’t GM trying to reduce the number of dealers? Sounds like this Heard deal represents pretty good progress. A huge Ford dealer in our town closed a few years ago, and Ford ran the thing for a while as a company owned outlet. They couldn’t make it work, and it is now empty. So your point is well taken re GM and Heard.
Also, I thought I read or heard somewhere yesterday that GM had exhausted its lines of credit. Did you hear anything like that? At the curent rate, how long do you think it might take them to burn through 6 or 7 billion? Or the whole 25, come to that?
September 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Foreign investment and control of many of our institutions have been made possible by our buying habits and the greed of American company management. Not all managers, I might add, but all of the major “international” companies that farm out jobs to other countries in the name of giving consumers lower priced goods. Just when did we, as consumers, demand lower priced goods. Most of us would gladly buy American made products if available and at the same or near the same quality. Problem is, we now have no choice on many of the products we buy. Take a good look at every item you choose to purchase and see where it is manufactured. Most likely it will be China or another Asian nation. Doesn’t mean it is not good quality or not low priced. It just means that we, the American consumers, have sold out our workers for a few pennies. I am just as much to blame as anyone else. I have asked my wife to try to select American made products whenever possible. There isn’t many to choose from now days. It is a sorry situation we find ourselves in.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
#73 nasaman:
How about an ethanol still. Kind of like the back yard blast furnaces during “The Great Leap Forward”.
Did you ever see a picture of the charcoal powered cars in Europe during WWII? The one I saw was in Norway. It had some sort of a charcoal burner mounted on the front bumper which somehow gave off methane, or some such, which was piped to the carburetor. Good for about 15 mph or something, if memory serves.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
It is about time our government backs our auto industry like japan has backed theirs for years.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I understand that GM will place up to several hundred Volt-like test cars on the road during 2009. I would like to propose to GM that they sponsor a GM Volt Nation day with many of these cars present at their launch. Some of us, certainly many of us, would attend. It would be a good send off for the test fleet and would give GM a good opportunity for some more easy publicity. Maybe they could do a drawing and let several members of the visitors take a test drive around the track or something. I would think that of the 41,000+ on this site, GM could expect to see a pretty big crowd. They could limit the size by first come first serve tickets. Kind of like what was done in New York. What do you others think?
September 25th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
noel #77
You can actually buy an Ethanol pump/distiller for your home. What they don’t mention is that to make 30 gals or so you’d need about 500lbs of sugar delivered on a truck!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmFwSogNAEc
September 25th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
#80 Grizzly:
Yeah well, maybe not one of my best ideas! You mean we can’t just cook it up out of our backyard switchgrass plots? Or the trash can?
September 25th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
More taxpayer-funded welfare for the Dumb-3 who were 5-10 years behind Toyota, Honda and Nissan, who are ALREADY making fuel-efficient small engines, and employing American workers.
Their reward for getting the product and engines “right” - nothing.
GM, Ford and Chrysler deserve *nothing* for YEARS of bad business decisions.
Why were there no bailouts for other decent blue-collar sectors? Did the steel or appliance manufacturing sectors get bailouts? Hell no - not on this scale.
Congress should have told the big-3 to go f*&k themselves. Now we’re financing Ford, GM and Chrysler. Everyone in America should start learning French as it’s creeping towards a welfare state like France!!
September 25th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
WTF?! The government should not be bailing out companies that cannot succeed. It’s called the FREE MARKET because it’s supposed to be free from state control and intervention…
As if the banking bailout isn’t enough evidence (not to mention the long long history of other corporate bailouts in this country), we are now the U.S.S.A., no longer the USA… We are not a free market republic, we are a state-capitalist oligarchy. I just can’t wait till the IMF and World Bank are bailing the government out… Welcome to the 3rd world!
But please, let me buy an electric car for under $25K. Thanks.
September 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
So GM, thus Chevy, gets the money….now what?
Will it bring the Volt to the showroom any sooner?
September 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
# 65 Gary
I understand your concerns, but GM’s engineers put a lot of time and thought into the Volt’s range-extender, and I believe they reached the consensus that having the engine recharging the batteries is better. Besides, why would they sabotage their much-hyped-and-anticipated Volt, whose success or lack there of may very well determine if GM survives?
September 25th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
OK, one more time for those in the cheap seats! You people sound like a bunch of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. I will say this until someone listens and does something about it; Our United States Congress (Senators and Representatives) is spending your and my tax money without authorization. What are YOU going to do about it! These men and women work for us, however until you make that point clear to them nothing is going to change! Washington is ELECTED, one more time, WASHINGTON IS ELECTED! Call your Senators and Representatives and ask them what are you people doing with my money and my children’s money? Tell them to shape-up or you will ship them out! Also I think we need to approve their pensions based on their performance. Once elected they have it made for the rest of their lives and don’t care what you think! They will continue to drawn their pay, in full and all benefits until they die, can you?
September 25th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Statik, Noel, Nasaman, Grizzly, and all the others.
I must say that this “virtual community” that has become Gm-volt.com means a lot for me.
I never met you personnaly but I think we are familiar of each others, look above we ask where is Raschiid.
Thanks for your comments. They have educated me a lot.
Good night.
JC
September 25th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
noel park #81
I don’t know about switch grass, but I’ve got to believe that a gasifier for cellolosic would be a dollar or two. I’ve got to say that for “start with sugar” ethanol I was shocked at the amount it took to produce just 30 gallons.
September 25th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
#75 noel park
BTW, wasn’t GM trying to reduce the number of dealers? Sounds like this Heard deal represents pretty good progress. A huge Ford dealer in our town closed a few years ago, and Ford ran the thing for a while as a company owned outlet. They couldn’t make it work, and it is now empty. So your point is well taken re GM and Heard.
————
I don’t think they wanted to lose the Heard chain, lol
…maybe the people working in GM’s legal division were happy
September 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
BDP #51;
You’re on to something…They should give up on ethanol and go back to making booze and we can drink our happy selves into oblivion while this country goes down the economic rat hole…
September 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
noel park
Also, I thought I read or heard somewhere yesterday that GM had exhausted its lines of credit. Did you hear anything like that? At the curent rate, how long do you think it might take them to burn through 6 or 7 billion? Or the whole 25, come to that?
————
Yeah GM had to tap it before they shut it down on them next quarter.
Of interest there is no buyers now on Hummer, so it is ‘officially’ for sale on the website…no more weighing our strategic options BS.
Also they were trying to dump off their Mid-Size truck business to Isuze after Navistar signed a ‘tentative’ deal then back out out, today’s news–> not good on that front either:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7822589
GM is going to have their worst quarter (counting revenues/profits directly from automobile business only…not one time items). I figure they have to maybe Q2 2008…even with their share of the 25 billion (6.5B tops)
September 25th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
#64 - We can talk about alternative fuels until the cows come home.
#77 - Did you ever see a picture of the charcoal powered cars in Europe during WWII? The one I saw was in Norway. It had some sort of a charcoal burner mounted on the front bumper which somehow gave off methane, or some such, which was piped to the carburetor.
#88 - I don’t know about switch grass, but I’ve got to believe that a gasifier
——————————————————————-
Thinking about the above quotes, I just this great idea for a new hybrid. It starts with cows pulling the car, and then you capture the “natural gas” and compress it, and then a little CNG engine starts up and pulls the cows on a trailer for the next 40 miles. Oh yeah, I forgot, you have to have saw grass mounted on a bumper in front of the cows.
Then . . .
September 25th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
#92 Michael
Cute, yeah cute. Making me laugh after a full day.
September 25th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
“The company (2007) overall earned $1.4 billion, or $2.48 a share, excluding special items, compared with $1.2 billion, or $2.03, on that basis a year earlier (2006).
Analysts had forecast that GM’s earnings would fall to $1.13 excluding special items in the most recent period, due to the sale of 51 percent of its money-making finance unit, GMAC, during the last year.
Probably good to have bailed out of the finance unit that has tanked along with other mortgage lenders.
September 25th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
BTW, the details of the “bailout” are the taxpayers guarantee the mortgage portfolio with hard cash on the order of 10% of the value - i.e. $70B, not $700B. The paper is not worthless as it’s secured by real estate. Indy investment bankers are enthusiastic about the potential for taxpayer income over the next 2-5 years when real estate bounces. Estimates on cash value of the portfolio are $1.5 - 2 Trillion -making this the biggest trade in financial history. And a huge net profit for the US Treasury.
Now, what will Congress do with its new found $1.5 Trillion bucks???
September 25th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
#53 Tom H Says: “PHEVs use so little fuel that our domestic supplies of gasoline will last for generations…”
————————————————————————————–
The facts contradict you. Here are the facts:
• 70% of the oil consumed in the United States is imported.
• 66% of the oil consumed in the United States is for transportation
• 44% of the oil consumed in the United States is for gasoline
• 5% of the oil consumed in the United States is for jet fuel
• 17% of the oil consumed in the United States is for diesel
Most diesel is used for heavy duty and long distance travel. PHEVs provide little or no benefit here. So if everyones car was an E-REV, then around 80% of our gasoline consumption would be reduced. But since gasoline only accounts for 44% of our oil consumption, the maximum impact of E-REVs would be to reduce our oil consumption by about 1/3. This is no where near the 70% of our oil that’s imported.
Bottom line: In order to elimintate foreign oil, we need PHEVs plus bio-diesel, ethanol, and more conservation. We should also find ways to migrate away from home heating oil.
September 25th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
#90 RichardD-
I laugh every time someone tries to make the argument for ethanol. Time & technology will kill it soon enough. Take away the kids candy (subsidy) and they kick, scream & cry. Heck, even a growing number of politicians are dropping their support for it. If politicians can see the writing on the wall, why can’t the people who invested in it?
At least we’re going to have a lot of production capabilities in the booze department!!
September 25th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
#88 Grizzly:
Yeah, I was just teasing.
#90 Richard G & #92 Michael:
Jean-Charles is right again. There are a lot of good ideas here! Making booze in the back yard is a way better idea than mine!
#97 BDP:
Yeah, and it looks like we’re gonna need it too!
September 25th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
I posted this in the other thread, but this one seems more appropriate now I think about it.
The 700 billion dollar banking bailout has collapsed on itself. They are working late tonight to try to revive it. Market will probably have a cow tomorrow (technicl terminology there) if they can’t work it out, or at least smooth it over.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080925/financial_meltdown.html
September 25th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
#97 BDP Says: “I laugh every time someone tries to make the argument for ethanol. Time & technology will kill it soon enough.”
————————————————————————————-
I have no idea what technology you mean here. What will replace diesel for 18-wheel trucks? What will replace jet fuel? These two account for 22% of our oil consumption (see post #96 for details). Bio-diesel and cellulosic ethanol are the most promising technologies for these sectors.
And for cars, I just don’t believe fast electric charging stations are going to sprout up all over the place in the next 10 years. Infrastructure changes like that take much longer, like 30-50 years. So for those days that we drive over 40 miles, E85 seems like the best answer.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Fast charging will spring up as demand warrants. As EVs enter the market so too will the support systems needed to service and refuel them. A fast charge kiosk or pedestal will cost about the same to operate as an ATM and can be located similarly.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
OK!!! Now we’re talkin’! The Senate has passed HR 6049, which includes the PHEV tax credit. The President will certainly sign this, so it’s essentially a done deal, regardless of what MCain and Obama tell you. Here are the numbers:
`”(2) BASE AMOUNT- The amount determined under this paragraph is $3,000.
`(3) BATTERY CAPACITY- In the case of a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $200, plus $200 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $2,000.”
So there you have it! $5,000 tax credit for the Volt. I saw a blog entry that said that the credit would be available for the first 250,000 vehicles, but the actual bill, as I read it, only covers the first 60,000 cars.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Dave G. # 100
“So for those days that we drive over 40 miles, E85 seems like the best answer.”
*** *** ***
Yes, that and/or eventually E100. Unfortunately liquid fuels will be with us for quite some time and without ethanol or some other non opec liquid fuel EVs simply won’t be practical enough to go mainstream and potent enough to free us from foreign oil.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Texas,
Please know what you spew before you spew it. Japan buys a handful of other cars but no one sells many cars other than the Japanese in Japan.
The Japanese had a cute trick to get into auto business in the early 20th century. They said every maker, like Ford, had a few months to sell out to Japanese interests or they would be forced out of business, and they did, for a dime or penny on the dollar.
Its past time to return thye favor, I suggest that Toyota and Honda have one month to sell their American factories and sale and engineering businesses lock, stock and barrel, to an American buyer at whatever price was an American offered.
Fair is fair. One good turn deserves another.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:45 am
#102 George B. Says: “The Senate has passed HR 6049, which includes the PHEV tax credit. The President will certainly sign this, so it’s essentially a done deal, …
So there you have it! $5,000 tax credit for the Volt. I saw a blog entry that said that the credit would be available for the first 250,000 vehicles, but the actual bill, as I read it, only covers the first 60,000 cars.”
————————————————————————————-
gm-volt.com and many other news outlets report that the Senate amended HR 6049 for a $7500 max tax credit, and 250,000 vehicles.
Also, autobloggreen reports a 6kWh minimum battery capacity, so this may have been amended as well:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/17/toyota-unhappy-with-current-phev-legislation/
September 26th, 2008 at 6:19 am
#65 Gary said- >”…Read this instead!
http://jalopnik.com/5054642/chevy-volt-engine-wont-recharge-batteries-while-driving-just-a-regular-plug+in-hybrid
It would be stupid for the volt to recharge its batteries because running the gas engine to recharge them costs 10 times as much as plugging it in when you get home. On top of that, electrical resistance losses used to put electricity into the battery, and then take the electricity out again does not make efficency sense.”
Gary, you’re missing the forest for all the trees. Before you go on accusing me of spewing drivel and whining - consider this:
You’ve seemed to lose your common sense in lieu of making a physics-engineering point about a car built and designed to travel 40 miles. The 400lb. MONSTER in the room here is that any number of current EVs can travel 40 miles and more on nothing more than lead-acid batteries, 60 plus on lithium - FOR $10-15,000 LESS.
Who the heck cares if once the Volt’s batteries reach 40% it can limp home to the electrical outlet? It makes absolutely no sense to spend $40plus grand for basically a commuter vehicle! It’s not gonna float! It’ll die an embarrassing financial death, and rather quickly.
You miss fact that the Volt will not fly with the American consumer.. As a Prius owner I understand weight and wind resistence are efficiency’s worst enemies. The Volt is not a light vehicle. Neither is it’s design practical. Seating four in cramped quarters and a golf bag. The Volt under gas-assist from it’s 1.4 litre mill and a full 12 gallon fuel tank and 400lbs.of batteries will be a slug. A major slug at that. GM quoted 30 mpg. on ICE powered electric on the highway. Do the math. My yesterday-tech NIMH Prius will continue to use full electric at times combined with ICE thrust on the 600 mile jaunt to grandma’s house. The Volt, on the other hand, will go 40 miles on battery and continue the next 560 miles on GAS! This is why it needs a 12 gal. tank!
Lose the engineer cap here for a moment and think what that means. It means a small, cheap ICE compact costing far under half what a Volt will set you back - will do a much better job getting you to work, It’ll carry all your stuff and you’ll have enough left in your wallet to buy gas for over a decade.
Now call that “drivel” and whining - I call it good old American common sense.
The Volt turns out to be a big buzz-kill joke.
ReVOLTing, indeed. Buy an Aptera instead - and if you’re like Lutz and filled with end-of-charge anxiety - get the Aptera hybrid. Still, you’ll save $8k over the Volt!
#85 Kyle - > ” Besides, why would they sabotage their much-hyped-and-anticipated Volt, whose success or lack there of may very well determine if GM survives?”
Kyle, it’s not about sabatoge. GM merely overstated the capabilities of the Volt from the outset. Now they’re lowering your expectations and eeking out the truth through contradictory press releases. Scroll up and read the reason: Try 6 - 12 BILLION dollars of our tax money alloted by misguided, naive Congressmen.
Bottom line: TOYOTA EXECS said before the 2007 Detroit Auto Show that GM’s claims re: the Volt could not be done. Mr. Lutz defended his position fully knowing they were playing to Congress to portray an image of a company who had answers to questions nobody can answer at this point in time. Toyota was right.
Future lithium-energized plug-in hybrid platforms will out-perform the Volt hands down. Even the next-gen 2009 Prius with it’s larger NIMH packs and no plug will go seven miles on all electric and achieve higher mpg. than the current iteration.
GM is playing you. Check this link: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=132112
September 26th, 2008 at 7:48 am
#106 Melvin Says: “As a Prius owner I understand weight and wind Resistance are efficiency’s worst enemies.”
————————————————————————————-
Actually, this is not quite right. Weight is not a big issue. Wind Resistance are tire rolling Resistance are efficiency’s worst enemies. Tire rolling Resistance is affected by weight, but not as much as you would think.
So weight is not a big deal for efficiency. Weight does affect acceleration though. This is why the Volt has a 150hp electric motor. Note that this electric motor is around 3 times the power of the Prius electric motor. Also note that larger electric motors are more efficient than smaller ones. This is the exact opposite of gas engines.
As for the Volt’s price, it will be around $30K after tax credits. GM’s CEO says the sticker price will be in the “mid to high 30s”, and the senate just passed a $7500 tax credit.
As for how much gas you save, let’s compare a Prius, a Plug-in Prius, and a Volt:
• Prius = 46 MPG
• Plug-In Prius = 70 MPG
• Volt = 314 MPG
Note that these figures are the average MPG you would get using a typical yearly driving pattern as follows:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
So while the Prius is probably the most gas efficient car today, it will come nowhere close to the Volt and other EVs with range extenders. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a GM fanboy. I just hope Toyota sees the light and starts making EVs with range extenders as well.
September 26th, 2008 at 8:21 am
#102 George B, #105 Dave G
In my comment 149 on the “One Step Toward a Cheaper Volt:Senate passes …” post, I pointed out that the Senate language could be found in S3478.
September 26th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Nothing like a little red tape to mess everything up, the nightmare scenario for GM on the bailout money.
WASHINGTON — The $25 billion in low-cost government loans domestic automakers are banking on to retool plants to build more fuel-efficient vehicles may not be awarded until mid-2010, the U.S. Energy Department said Thursday.
“It appears that DOE is making excuses for its own anticipated failures,” said U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Dearborn, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. “…If DOE is asking for vigorous oversight to ensure it performs its duties, we will be happy to oblige.”
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080926/AUTO01/809260336/1148/AUTO01
September 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am
#87 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
Many thanks for your charming comment, as always. I continue to carry with me your brilliant comment so many months ago about the potential of the internet, and forums such as this, to bring the people of the world together beyond our traditional environment of our “leaders’” spin and obfuscation, to all of our great mutual benefit.
Never mind the scholarly and professional lessons on economics which you have provided for us.
On balance I amm bound to say that I have learned a lot more from you than you ever could hope to from me. Thanks again.
September 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am
More National Depth= less the value of the dollar
less the value of the dollar= income staying the same, price of goods rising (inflation)
The Chevy Volt is a good. By giving GM and other automakers 25 bil, we have increased the price of the Volt in the USA. Good Job!
pjd493@gmail
September 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am
@Bahamut:
Correct. When the National Depth reaches 6 feet - the dollar will be dead and buried.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
@ dollar sign.
lol. Hey I have no clue how to spell, nor do I care. I am only 14.