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Continental Begins World’s First Mass Production of Lithium-ion Automotive Battery Packs Today
September 24th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Production
Continental Automotive, one of the two Chevy Volt pack-making team partners announced the opening of a new factory in Germany today. The plant is being billed as the first in the world to mass-manufacture lithium-ion battery packs for automotive use.
The plant has the capacity to produce 15,000 packs per year, which could be doubled at short notice. The 25 kg packs are actually for the Mercedes S400 Blue Hybrid which is slated to launch in mid-2009. These are non-plugin hybrid packs with a peak power of 19 kw. The packs include a battery management system to keep the cells in an optimum working environment from a charge and temperature perspective.
This event is a very significant milestone in the global drive towards electrification of the automobile.
Source (Continental Automotive)
Posted by: Lyle
100 Responses to “Continental Begins World’s First Mass Production of Lithium-ion Automotive Battery Packs Today”
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:42 am
1st…..
NPNS
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am
>> The plant has the capacity to produce 15,000 packs per year
That’s what Toyota meant by not ready yet. Yields are way too small for mainstream needs and price is far from affordable still.
Given the necessary time, all will go very well. But those years in the meantime will leave some automakers with nothing competitive to sell.
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Great News!! This is just the beginning.
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:51 am
What are all the nifty little gribblies attached to the near-end of that pack?
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Does anyone know how long it took them to get this plant up and running?
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am
“The packs INCLUDE a battery management system to keep the cells in an optimum working environment from a charge and temperature perspective.”
You got to love that.
no plug=no sale
PS: Watch for a few Volt pictures from the Santa Monica Electric Vehicle Expo (09/26). Will post them this Friday night right here at gm-Volt.com
Could it be the purple ‘movie’ Volt? Interior colors?
Thanks again Lyle for offering this opinion interface.
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:58 am
So if I understand this correctly it is a 50lb pack…about a 1/8th the size of the Volt…so we are probably talking about a 2kW pack
This would translate into raw capacity for about 1,900 Volt packs?
No comment as such on the announcement, was just trying to get some perspective…I didn’t see any power numbers in the release.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
“I didn’t see any power numbers in the release.”
Me either, except for 19 kw output (we must’ve been reading at the same time). The release does have pictures of a technician standing near a couple of units; they don’t appear much bigger than a traditional lead-acid ICE-cranker. Well, OK; for a truck.
Actual cost wasn’t disclosed either. I wonder if something like this could be used by the home EV-conversion crowd as a replacement for deep-cycle lead-acid batteries (probably not this one, with it’s integrated hybrid function controller). A lot of them read this site. Comments, anybody?
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Do these packs have integrated liquid cooling? I can’t tell from the plugs. If they don’t they’ll simpler then the Volt’s and direct comparisons will be difficult.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
The connection on the left is for coolant and the orange one in the middle looks like the power connection.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Wow, this is great, I’m getting excited again, thanks Lyle, I look forward each day and sometimes twice a day to what you bring to us. I hope they start building more factories to produce more of them ——No Plug No Sale —(I see this slogan other places now even off our blogs, this is great too) I go into car dealers in my area and yell in the door at the salepeople no plug no sale
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
If the energy density of the cell is 120 wh/kg, and the 25 kg pack contains 20 kg of cell storage, then a 2.4 KWh battery is in the ball park. More than adequate for a mild hybrid.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
#12 Van
If the energy density of the cell is 120 wh/kg, and the 25 kg pack contains 20 kg of cell storage, then a 2.4 KWh battery is in the ball park. More than adequate for a mild hybrid.
————
Thats about what I was thinking exactly, lol. I rounded down allowing for extra pack weight ratio based on scale efficiencies…but either way, I feel good about our math, unless someone can pin point a exact number in a press release somewhere. Maybe we have to dig up the info directly from Mercedes?
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
#10 Len
If fitting on the left is for liquid coolant there must be a return, which I don’t see. If it’s air cooled then the exhaust could be anywhere, including the black fitting on top.
If it is air cooled, direct extrapolations to the Volt need to be careful. The Volt’s liquid coolant system will add recurring cost, weight, and higher engineering fixed costs. The Volt battery will probably also be higher performance.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
GO CONTI!!!
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Most of the big AC motors are water cooled, so it makes sense the battery would be, but… The other fitting could be on the back. It sure looks like a hose fitting.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Is Gm going too uses two battery suppliers?
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
# 11 Mike Casey
“I go into car dealers in my area and yell in the door at the salepeople no plug no sale”
I’m with you in spirit, bro. But, it looks like you are starting to go over the edge.
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Taking baby steps toward less oil. This is great news!!!
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
@18 ThombDbhomb,
Maybe so (M. Casey going over the edge), at least a bit. But I think we should encourage him! I might even join him.
At the very least, it’ll confuse the hell out of the more ignorant sales staffers. Tons of fun for the whole family!!
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
More silly conjecture…
Conti has an image at their site of the pack on a test bench.
http://tinyurl.com/49dqd8
(image links are on the bottom right)
Judging by how it’s hooked up, I’d say both the “pipe fitting” and the orange plug are for the liquid cooling since they both have orange hoses/cables connected to them. That leaves the black plastic port as the power connector.
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Hope they can ramp up the production sooner
.
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
A123 batteries dont need cooling or heating. Just check their internal impedance on the battery’s spec sheet posted at their site. This design is a waste. MB and BMW must be thinking stone-age when they insist on cooling. Their mechanical guys and associated busybodies dont want to bend over gracefully.
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Mohsen – I agree with you, but they are using lipos not A123 batteries.
I just ran across an article:
“Over the next three years, the Fraunhofer Institutes in Germany will collaborate with Volkswagen to explore lithium-polymer accumulators as alternatives to the lithium-ion batteries today’s vehicles often use. The four organizations are working under a development program that Germany’s Federal Ministry of the Environment and other organizations launched.”
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6594105.html
It is areas like that the government could actually help. They could use some NASA brainpower to move us ahead, and keep key developed tech out of the patent courts.
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September 24th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Note that the Continental pack announced today is a “charge sustaining” type battery used for traditional hybrids. These are usually all about maximizing power at the cost of energy density. With this in mind, 19kW of power seems very low. I’m not sure if that’s a typo. Also no mention of energy storage here.
As a contrast, the Volt uses a “charge depleting” type battery, with max power of at least 120kW and total energy storage of 16kWh.
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Wow!! The Germans. Not Quang Dong…
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
#26 Aleman:
Yeah, at least DB has enough loyalty, patriotism, and/or sense of their own enlightened self interest to source the batteries out of the Fatherland.
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
This is good news.
Be aware that the Sarah Palin administration will force the government (kicking and screaming) to heavily invest in advanced battery technology.
Also, I have noticed that when comparing Volt battery to other Lithium batteries many of you are just comparing blanket numbers like kWh, size, weight. This is bad practice because each Lithium battery maker builds their cells differently. Even A123 makes many different type of Lithium batteries each with their own energy densities and chemical makeups.
The batteries in Chrysler vehicles can be much smaller and have a much longer lifetime than the ones used in the Volt. Stop using your monkey math numbers with kiloWatt this-n-that to justify your lame arguments. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about. I have chemical engineers working for me that would put you people to shame on this site. So please stop with your battery comparison nonsense already.
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
John 1701a #2: “The plant has the capacity to produce 15,000 packs per year
That’s what Toyota meant by not ready yet. Yields are way too small for mainstream needs and price is far from affordable still.
Given the necessary time, all will go very well. But those years in the meantime will leave some automakers with nothing competitive to sell.”
I’m not sure that all will go very well with time, at least with respect to Li. Li is not exactly abundant and there are only a few miners of Li in the world. If we start mass producing Li-ion batteries, the cost of Li will go up and make the cost of Nickel look really cheap.
Batteries are likely to be the bug in the ointment for the foreseeable future. That’s why I think getting good electric vehicles is a viable alternative right now. We probably need two cars. One for local driving and one for longer trips.
If GM could get the price/performance specs of the Volt back to where they were originally, it would be fantastic. I would imagine aftermarket packs extending the EV range for those needing it, making it a great solution.
Pity, it won’t happen, but I can dream like everyone else on this site, can’t I?
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
“These are non-plugin hybrid packs with a peak power of 19 kw”
Sorry, no plug, no sale
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I doubt GM will be using European or American made battery packs. Volt batteries will likely be Chinese. We will shift our dependence from radical Islam sponsoring Middle East oil, to Communism sponsoring Far East Li-ion.
The best solution would be to make the batteries here in the US. It may be expensive, but if GM is to have us believe they are paying $10,000 (x2) for a pack (and passing on that $20,000 expense to consumers), then our batteries should at least be made by US workers.
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Olivia de Rothschild is getting surly in #28
Suggestion for Olivia: Instead of name-calling, educate us. That seems more grown up.
p.s., say “Hi!” to my fellow ChE’s for me
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September 24th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
ThombDbhomb #32:
Could have been worse.. You know, that “redneck” thing.
No time for education. Livvy is having tea with Carly to compare gaffs.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I love the way all you gear-heads or maybe I should say engineers analyze the size and output of the proposed battery packs like it was for real! Have you stopped to think that a plant in Germany will be supplying the Europeans electric cars first and that the import taxes will run the cost of foreign produced power products out of sight? Your Uncle will get his first you know. A gallon of gas produced in the Middle East is taxed around 9 times before it makes it to the pump and if we cut that consumtiom the government will need to get it back from some place. If you want something that is a little cheaper to drive in the near future you may want to look into LNG. The US has more than the rest of the world put together and it’s clean and can be made available very quickly if you listen to T. Boone Pickens; He needs a few more $s from us you know.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
nasaman :
With all of the news that is coming out from several automakers that plan on having electric vehicles available in 2010, I have a question. Do you think GM developed the Volt within the structure needed to have a vehicle of this caliber, or was it overkill? It seems like the additional vehicles that will be coming out have not completed their homework and they could have serious problems down the road..My feeling is that GM wants to mage darn sure this application works ! I sure would be interested in your comment on this.
Many thanks,
God Bless America.
Tom
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
As I understand it the Volt is a 10Kw system , Plus if they have started mass production they have solved the over heating problem . NICE.
God Bless
Edwin Mang Jr.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
#34 Jay
I’m trying to follow your logic. How did you go from “battery packs aren’t real” to commenting on the price of imported batteries? If batteries aren’t real, how can they be imported?
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Len “… but they are using lipos not A123 batteries.”
OMG, double OMG! Do they want to blow up their Smart cars and fry its occupants using lipo batteries? I mean even the Chinese have moved away from dangerous lipo (Lithium Polymers) and have moved to LiFePO4. And the Germans are way behind the curve.
And then after 300 charges, the lipo goes dead anyways.
This is what you get in a semi-socialist economy where the government sits on your board. Way to go DB!
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Kubel #31 – We’re talking about a $700 billion bail-out of Wall Street. Record trade deficits. Record budget deficits. A $12 billion per month war that is not even included in the annual budget. Our currency will not be worth as much tomorrow as it is today and china has been underpricing their currency anyway> folks our days of cheap goods from china are over
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
The Tesla is also using lipos. They are very careful with their packaging to contain and limit any thermal runaway. Someone posted a power point presentation from Contentinal back in one of the threads and they are using “separaters”. They apparently have done a lot of work on the cathode and anode materials to increase current. They also said that after testing some of the units exibited a slight puffyness. It appears to me that they really need to control the environment for these to last. I wouldn’t have any confidence in them anyway though. Not the right chemistry.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
This is off the thread and I apologize.
I live in Atlanta.
It would be real easy to sell Volts here today.
All the stations on my way home had no gas.
Its the same pretty much all over Atlanta.
If a station does get gas, people form LONG lines waiting to get it and then the station sells out quickly.
We are weeks past the hurricane.
Could this be a brief vision of our future without electric cars?
Oh yeah, one more interesting tidbit. I just heard that 10% of our nation’s nuclear power comes from material we got from old Soviet nuclear warheads.
That, in part, is what will power your Volt! Pretty cool, eh?
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
#29 Jerry – “I’m not sure that all will go very well with time, at least with respect to Li. Li is not exactly abundant and there are only a few miners of Li in the world. If we start mass producing Li-ion batteries, the cost of Li will go up and make the cost of Nickel look really cheap.”
The peak lithium argument seems overdone. Lithium is a very common element. While true there is not a lot of production, it’s also true there hasn’t been a lot of demand. When people start looking for it we’ll see it popping up all over the place.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434
Also keep in mind that it isn’t consumed and can be recycled.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
#36 Edwin Mang
As I understand it the Volt is a 10Kw system , Plus if they have started mass production they have solved the over heating problem . NICE.
God Bless
Edwin Mang Jr.
—————
+1
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Len: “The Tesla is also using lipos. ”
I dont believe this is the case. Tesla is using 18650 LiCoO2 (standard laptop cylindrical batteries). Flat Lithium Polymer is too expensive and unstable. Could you show me somewhere that says lithium polymers are being used by Tesla?
Are you sure Conti is using polymers?
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
I thought both companies CPI/ Continental promised to build factories in the US, and they would almost have to unless they want to ship 400lb packs across the ocean.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
#40 Len
I don’t know much about Continental’s spinel manganese chemistry, but the A123 nanophosphate chemistry is far safer than the standard Li-ion. Both types are described as “safe Li-ion”.
The A123 batteries have proven safe in the field, so if GM decided to go with Continental you’d have to assume that the spinel are at least as safe, suggesting there isn’t a safety issue.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
DonC. I was under impression that they were moving away from the mining of lithium other than as a byproduct of mining something else and are shifting towards extracting it from extremely salt water. Sorry can’t seem to find a reference.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
This is what mikeinatlanta is talking about (it affects a 45 county area including Atlanta):
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/9089/
This is the kind of thing that makes me sick and tired of California’s role as the ‘center of the Universe’ when it comes to rolling out new electrics (including most of the first US Volts).
There are places which desperately need practical (above 35 mph) electric vehicle technology that won’t get it for years, because nothing gets more for a greenwashing buck than a new line of EVs in Kah-lee-foe-knee-Ah.
Thom M (#35):
nasaman left some excellent late comments on the “Chrysler goes Electric” post which goes into some of that.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
It is a start. We still have a long way to go before the Volt can be produced in capacity to fill our needs. I just hope the battery suppliers can meet the demand. I see a very busy future for the battery suppliers. I hope even more so that new technology will reduce the size and expense of the battery packs. That would really see electric vehicles take off.
Maybe this Continental Automotive battery pack could be used in pickup trucks to give them a boost in mpg.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
off-topic: The USA today of yesterday (9/23) has a full page ad from GM showing the Volt. It has the picture of the car in the lightbox with the cord attached, and some text.
In part the text says “..for up to the first 40 miles of driving, it will use zero gasoline…” Note “up to”.
At the bottom of the ad it says “Target launch 2010. Vehicle features and performance subject to change without notice.”
It’s a legal disclaimer, of course. But legal disclaimers are there for a reason.
I have become less and less confident that the Volt’s performance will be what we have understood it to be up to this point, or even close to that That is, my confidence in the Volt’s appearance or performance is “…subject to verification upon production..” and otherwise just wait and see. (If the Volt is just a Cruze with a decal, it will meet everything claimed in this ad. After all, “up to 40″ includes zero.)
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
DonC #46
The A123 batteries have proven safe in the field, so if GM decided to go with Continental you’d have to assume that the spinel are at least as safe, suggesting there isn’t a safety issue.
*** *** ***
Don,
I think you meant CPI right? Conti is partnered with A123 and CPI with LG, in fact CPI is a division of LG. I’m still wondering if the reason there is no batt contract yet is that GM is perplexed with the decision to go with what might be a better pack as opposed to better chemistry. I’m wondering if they’re going to find a way to get both involved like using A123’s cells in CPI’s pack. That wouldn’t leave much for Conti though, except maybe pack manufacturing licensing.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
35 Tom M…….. You asked, “nasaman : With all of the news that is coming out from several automakers that plan on having electric vehicles available in 2010, I have a question. Do you think GM developed the Volt within the structure needed to have a vehicle of this caliber, or was it overkill? ……”
Hybrid batteries are much easier to design than EV or E-REV batteries because they only need to be high power (and not high energy) and they can be MUCH smaller in size & capacity. Toyota, GM, Ford & Chrysler already have successful cars on the road with hybrid batteries, so Mercedes is not facing major risks. For more about this see my posts #134 & 135 today at…. http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/23/chrysler-goes-electric/#comment-70370
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
#48 Jackson – CA is the center of the universe because that’s where all the EV-1s, Honda Insights, and the early Prius’ were sold. It’s just a market with a more proven track record of accepting these types of vehicles.
#51 Grizzly – Yes you’re right. I meant CPI. For some reason I always link Continental with LG. (There did it again … LOL). I suspect GM is finding the chemistry of both of the batteries to be fine. Because of the success of the A123 batteries I have never seriously questioned the Volt battery pack.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
DonC #53
They may very well both be adequate, but if one chemistry was superior they might not determine it necessary to include a replacement battery cost in the price of the Volt. Anything to bring the cost down!
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September 24th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
#54 Grizzly – “but if one chemistry was superior they might not determine it necessary to include a replacement battery cost in the price of the Volt.”
I’m with nasaman on this one. GM is talking up the battery cost in order to justify the move from “under $30K” to “under $40K”. As he’s pointed out, both companies have suggested the cost of the packs should be $5K. And they are not going to fail. All this talk about having a replacement pack built into the price is crazy.
When the tax credit goes away they’ll drop the price of the Volt and claim it was because of the falling prices of the batteries.
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
#46 DonC — Manganese Spinels (LMS) though more stable than standard lithium cobalt, is nowhere as safe as lithium iron phosphate. The real reason behind spinels is cycle life and cheapiness, and not safety, as it is marginal.
Spinels is a dead end. Its low capacity and relatively high propensity to catch fire does not justify its low cost. Expect to see Spinels lose out to standard iron phosphate (and nano iron phosphate) pretty soon. The Chinse are now gravitating to standard iron phosphate.
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
What is the point of having a big battery if you don’t charge from the grid???? Seems like a lot of extra cost for a battery that will frequently not even be used.
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Mohsen #56
“The real reason behind spinels is cycle life and cheapiness, and not safety, as it is marginal.”
*** *** ***
Mohsen,
How does MS cycle life compare to nano iron phosphate?
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Toyota and Panasonic have much more advanced battery technology on the way. They will make the Volt’s tired old Li-ion obsolete before it hits the Chevy showroom floor. Chevy is using 10 year old technology. Battery research is going to win this war and last time I check GM came up empty in this vital category. If you think the Chrysler announcement was shocking you haven’t seen anything yet. Stay tuned…
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Statik:
I know this is off topic but…
Would you pretty please post your financial blog or website?
I really would be interested in reading what you have to say about the events of the last 9 days.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Grizzly #58 – Manganese Spinel probably comes close to standard iron phosphate in cycle life.
But neither can come close to nano iron phosphate in cycle life or internal impedence. That is why Manganese spinel needs cooling, while A123 (nano iron phosphate) does not.
A123 is reporting 10,000 deep DoD cycle life. Nobody can come close to this number except for Altair and ultra-caps (if real).
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I am not a battery expert, but I do not understand why GM chose to use Lithium-Ion instead of the newer more advanced Lithium-Polymer for the Volt battery. There must be a logical reason but I don’t see it. I know the iPod nano uses Lithium-Polymer because it is not flammable (unlike Li-Ion).
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
#59 Rising Sun — hard to believe what you say, as Toyota or Panasonic have not produced any evaluation samples.
But A123 nLiFePO4 batteries have been in DeWalt tools since 2005. You would think Panasonic would start using the batteries you claim in their gadgets. But they have not.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I am looking for a satellite-based web site that will show me all the Lithium deposits within the lower 48 and Alaska. Does Google Earth have this info. I am willing to pay for access to this data. I am currently contacting several oil companies who have extensive geo mapping databases but they are in proprietary formats that are not suitable for the web. Any info would be greatly appreciated. TIA
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Meredith #62 – Lithium Polymer is the most flammable of batteries, in fact it is explosive. Many have died when their cellphones have exploded in their shirt pockets. It is an old technology. The advantage is that it has very high capacity (2 to 3 times more than LiFePO4).
LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) is the new and safe chemistry and GM Volt is evaluating it in the form of A123 batteries.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Could be for being very flamable? That Gm has not used that lithium-polymer. Gm has stated that the second Generation of the Volt will use supercompactors.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Lithium Polymer is flammable, I have personally watched a model plane with those batteries go up in flames after a crash. People have lost SUVs and nearly lost their houses by accedently overcharging them. There have been laptops that caught fire also, due to manufacturing defects at Sony and I believe also at Panasonic.
The A123 batteries are the best that are in use. There may be better stuff in the labs but I don’t know about that.
I read the PowerPoint presentation from the folks using the Manganese Spinel and somehow got the impression that they were lipos. Maybe the aluminum foil soft packaging threw me off. I will find it and post a link.
If people work hard enough and are looking, I am sure they will come up with improvements over the A123 batteries, but I wouldn’t make any bets on how soon.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Len, Manganese Spinels have the lowest capacity of all chemistries and they are cheap. While Li Polymer are expensive and high capacity. I do not believe lipos are LMS based.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
#64 88Hawii on deposits of Lithium
===================================
I know little about this subject. However:
This topic has come up in some earlier threads, where it was discussed at length. If you look back and find one of those, you might be able to find some useful information.
I remember than some posters said that lithium-something is a byproduct of desalination plants and therefore readily available there, though rarely refined or used for anything to date. Generally the spirit of the comments was that there is plenty of lithium, and the places identified as “deposits” are just those where extraction has been the cheapest for the quantities needed at present.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
From the looks of it, this battery has nothing to do with the volt? I mean 15k units isn’t anything, and this battery doesn’t seem big enough for the Volt anyways. I am also disappointed if they are manufacturing the Volt battery all the way in Germany. We need more jobs here in the USA.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
#61 Mohsen – Do you a cite to the A123 10,000 cycles? Thanks.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Mohsen – I think they described some kind of gel or paste in a aluminum foil package and said some puffed a little, I could have jumped to conclusions. I have had a lot of lipos puff.
The was a new battery technology developed by a researcher at Stanford that uses some kind of carbon tube cathode or anode and is supposed to be 10 times the capacity of the A123 batteries (if it pans out). I heard he was offered 30 million dollars to spend three or four months a year teaching in Saudi Arabia. Never heard anything after that though.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
It was my understanding that Lithium-Ion has the lithium salt electrolyte held in an organic solvent and it is this solvent that is flammable. While Lithium-Polymer has the electrolyte in a solid polymer composite such as polyacrylonitrile (a resinous, fibrous, or rubbery organic polymer). This polymer is NOT flammable. I could be wrong. Anyway I am sure more improved Lithium derivatives will be showing up from many places in the near future.
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September 24th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
They have been trying to make them less flamable, but it is a thermal runaway that happens and it can be started by either overcharging the cell or by damage to the cell (crash) or discharging too quickly causing enough heat to start the runaway. it burns quite vigorously once started. I threw one that started burning after a crash into a pond and it continued to burn underwater.
The A123 batterys do not have these problems. The five pack I am using now I have overcharged twice and overdischarged and they seem to be good as new. I don’t have a special charger for the A123 batterys and use a lipo charger which will overcharge them if I am not monitoring the charge.
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Another milestone in the electrification of the automobile. Great news! From this day on lithium-ion battery packs will be getting better, cheaper, faster, safer. You have to start somewhere!
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Len: The A123 batterys do not have these problems. The five pack I am using now I have overcharged twice and overdischarged and they seem to be good as new. I don’t have a special charger for the A123 batterys and use a lipo charger which will overcharge them if I am not monitoring the charge.
Ooooops — you cant overcharge A123 to 4.2 volts. They will get destroyed overtime. Get a hyperion charger or a cheap LiFePO4 chinese charger. Those batteries are too expensive to be mistreated!
They can be discharged up to 2 volts. But I would not go beyond 2.8 volts as there is no capacity left under 2.8.
Where do you buy the A123s?
The thing with LiFePO4 is that this material does not release oxygen until extremely high temperatures (800C) and therefore the thermal runaway cannot take place because it is the oxygen in the cathode that causes runaway in other cell chemistries at much lower temperatures (300C). LMS is not really much better than LiCoO2 (laptop) in this respect.
I am pretty sure Manganese spinel is a dead end.
The Stanford battery, if it works, will take 5 to 8 years before it can be mass produced. Dont hold your breath.
A123 is the way to go. The problem is that Chiang hasn’t figured out low cost manufacturing for this beast yet – otherwise in all other respects (except for 40% less capacity) it is superior. I expect its capacity to double in 3 to 4 years.
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
DonC – “Do you a cite to the A123 10,000 cycles? Thanks.”
See page 18 of this Argonne National Labs document:
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cove…925388-1KEcuJ/
It says 7000 at 100% DoD. Someone else claimed 10000 (probably at 80% DoD).
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I hated chemistry….This thread is getting a little long in the tooth.
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I am now convinced that I will be driving an electric based car within 5 years (hopefully less). There are so many players coming into the field, you just know that at least one of them will figure it out. I am not brand loyal, but would definitely lean towards US manuf. if at all possible, but I am not going to compromise on quality and price.
I have my checkbook at the ready….who wants the money?
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Today I got my first Dewalt Li Ion battery pack based on A123 LiFePO technology. They claim 2000 recharges are possible.
DeWALT’s Nano Technology delivers longer life. Delivering 2,000 recharges per life cycle, DeWALT’s Nano Phosphate Lithium Ion cells deliver an industry leading durability and life cycle.
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September 24th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
This is GM’s dilemma:
1- LG LiMnO2 (mang. spinel) battežries at low prices, which will probably have to be replaced after 5 years, and carry a danger in crashes, need cooling and lower performance, vs.
2- A123 nLiFePO4 batteries, expensive, but in all other respect far superior (and I am pretty sure does not need cooling).
LG batteries are probably 1/3 price of A123.
What would you choose?
I would choose A123 because there are enough good folks in the USA who will pay that extra (and get a safe, fast, 10 year battery).
The Problem is Prof. Chiang of MIT who hasn’t figured out yet how to produce the A123 batteries cheaply. Even after 10 million have been produced for DeWalt. Any chemies here than can lend the poor prof a hand?
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September 24th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Don C (53):
“CA is the center of the universe because that’s where all the EV-1s, Honda Insights, and the early Prius’ were sold. It’s just a market with a more proven track record of accepting these types of vehicles.”
I get it. In fact, I get it ‘up to here.’ We talk about the Volt in terms of it’s being a revolution. Is “traditional practice” any way to run a revolution?
To signal that this is truly something different, GM should have picked at least one roll-out location from a hat. If the Volt is anything close to what has been promised, people need it in places that have not already had a stab at every electric road vehicle that has come down the pike.
The first practical unit with wheels on the ground in Atlanta is going to get interest beyond any manufacturer’s belief … whoever that manufacturer is.
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September 24th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Mohsen #61
“But neither can come close to nano iron phosphate in cycle life or internal impedence. That is why Manganese spinel needs cooling, while A123 (nano iron phosphate) does not.”
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Thanks Mohsen. I knew that A123’s chem was superior I just wasn’t sure if it was across the board.
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Grizz, it is all across the board
The drawbacks of A123 are two fold:
Price – 3 times more expensive than standard Li-Ion batts.
Capacity per unit weight – about 2/3 of standard batts (but still more than manganese spinel)
But superior in:
power (3 times more than the runner up)
recharge time (10 minutes)
internal resistance (.008 ohms)
stability and abuse handling
safety (no thermal runaway)
cycle life (7000)
calendar life (15 years)
balance (cells match)
cold temperature -40C (great for Palin state)
hot temperature +70C
running cool
flat output curve
can be manufactured in large size (standard Li-Ion is dangerous in large size)
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Statik:
I know this is off topic but…
Would you pretty please post your financial blog or website?
I really would be interested in reading what you have to say about the events of the last 9 days.
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I’d love to hear it to, Wall St. (unlike GM) i would like to file chapter 11!
Wait isn’t that what their doing?
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September 25th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Mike Casey #11
Since two years, I do the same in my Opel garage : no plug, no sale.
At first they were smiling, now they take it seriously and keep saying : OK but you have to wait at least 2 or 3 years.
I’ll wait.
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:03 am
Mohsen – I buy the DeWalt packs on ebay, usually $100 or so. That gets me 10 cells. I break it down and make my own packs. You are right, I need to get the right charger, still I am amazed how tough these things are.
I must be getting old, I swapped CPI and Contenental in my pea brain. Someone has probably pointed out by now that it was CPI that teamed with LG that is not using A123 batteries. I don’t know what Contenental is using in the German case.
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:58 am
Still off the thread but events like these affect attitudes about drilling and energy independence…
I found gas with no waiting lines this morning in Atlanta at 4:00 AM. $4.00 per gallon and there were 10 other early birds like me filling up. During more regular hours there will be a very long line at this station until it runs out.
There are very few stations with gas in Atlanta right now. BE CAREFUL IF YOU ARE TRAVELING TO THIS AREA IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS!
I have lived here over 50 years and this is unprecedented. The only thing close was Jimmy Carter’s era with the oil embargo, but even then more stations had gas. I can’t help but feel this is a preview of America’s future if we don’t change.
I would much rather just plug in each night in my garage.
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September 25th, 2008 at 7:32 am
#60 Morgan
Statik: I know this is off topic but…
Would you pretty please post your financial blog or website?
I really would be interested in reading what you have to say about the events of the last 9 days.
————
You can send me a email for details if you like:
moderator.theclub@gmail.com
—–
It is basically a closed/invite forum, with institutional investors, money mangers, but also with some individuals of note…and buddies/co-workers of members.
The process is basically someone puts you up for access in the apps section, and whoever happens to stroll by votes on you, you get 90%, your in. I happy to post you up if you like, (there is a quick Q&A style dossier to fill out).
Basically done this way to keep the ‘Palin ‘08 Rules’ posts down and to ‘attempt’ a higher standard (although sometimes you wouldn’t know it).
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September 25th, 2008 at 7:48 am
will all Li-ion batteries packs for cars need to be liquid cooled?
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September 25th, 2008 at 8:41 am
mikeinatl:
Early birds. That’s why I didn’t see any stations with gas on my 20 mile drive into work this morning! A co-worker who comes 20 miles from a different direction also saw no stations with gas.
20+ mile (1 way) commutes are the norm, here; and the EPA has mandated a “botique” low-sulfur blend for our region which is apparently only made in the Houston area (which is still suffering blackouts and other side effects from the hurricanes). Also, a critical pipeline was closed for a couple of weeks. Governor Sonny Perdue has gotten a waiver from the EPA, but conventional “dirtier” fuel still has to be bought, and shipment arranged.
I did see a couple of stations yesterday with gas; they were either causing traffic jams, or had police officers on site to insure order.
Yeah, Mike; you’d think some manufacturer would recognize Atlanta as prime EV marketplace: but the only EV I’ve seen in the last 5 years was a low-speed GEM. Electrical supplies here are good, thanks to the Southern Company, so there would likely be no forseeable grid problems from electric cars. Moderate winters and a long summer would be another plus, I would think.
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September 25th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Looks like my Mom’s Norge toaster…
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September 25th, 2008 at 11:25 am
#90 Jackson
I found a QT station with gas last night about 8:00PM. The line was WAY too long and I decided I would rather come back in the wee hours since I’m an early riser anyway. Thankfully they still had gas.
It is very interesting to watch the public’s reaction to this. Most are well behaved and quietly get in line. So far. I am sure if this were thought to be a longer term problem and they were about to lose their jobs and homes over the shortages, things could get different in a hurry. There have been a few reports of flaring tempers and violence already.
So, with our dependance on how Iran acts regarding the Straits of Hormuz and a wild card dictator down in Venezuela and Russia’s new aggressions, just how far are we from this being an ongoing national shortage instead of regional and temporary? (So many more hotspots I could mention.)
The Volt could be the most important automotive product of all time if any of these teetering dominoes fall. Maybe even fist fights at the dealership. There may come a time when an electric car is an absolute necessity for everyone. Seems like a real good idea right now in Atlanta.
Hope there are still some GM dealers left by 2010.
NPNS!!! (Today that means a bit more in Atlanta.)
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September 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
37. ThombDbhomb Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
#34 Jay
I’m trying to follow your logic. How did you go from “battery packs aren’t real” to commenting on the price of imported batteries? If batteries aren’t real, how can they be imported?
OK, The battery packs are not on the boat to the US and won’t be, if ever, therefore they are not real by definition. The problem is that items made to replace gas in foreign countries will be a threat to the people in Washington and they will make sure we can’t afford it in any quantity. Electric cars and the concept of them is just to get us off the real subject of cheaper gas and alternative fuels developed here in the good old US of A. We are tied to our cars and everybody knows it! Cheap gas is at hand, if you study the Congress like these people on this website study the Volt, you will realize that the price of gas, cars, housing is going to remain at levels that we can barely afford unless We the People do something about it at the ballot box. I hate to say it, but the oil companies are really our friends, however the environmentalist and Congress will not let them give us the public the fuel we need at a fair price, read the papers and watch TV!. Who is trying the hands of the oil companies and won’t let them drill for our oil and develop oil shale and so on. The technology for pure electric cars, trucks, trains, and etc is here, but you will never see it or get it till we remove the greed at the top! They want our money and our children’s money and on and on and on, need I say more!
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Mohsen #83
This is what’s got me wondering again what Lutz meant when he said that they “felt there was a little less risk with one company” ? CPI was first to get a pack out because they had decided on prismatic cells early and had delivered several packs before Conti did.
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September 25th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Build the packs and they will come………….
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September 25th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Grizz, no question that A123 is far less risk. The problem with A123 is pricing of the cells. GM is well advised to go with A123, because Chiang will find a way to manufacture A123 at lower cost (is he smart enough for that?). This is bound to happen. There is no inherent expensive material in the nLiFePO4 (of course if manufacturing nano powder is not the costly step).
GM should keep CPI in the wings, but should go to bed with A123. Also, GM does not need Conti. A123 packs are a lot simpler to build than CPI packs, and GM will master that someday and does not need Conti.
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September 26th, 2008 at 7:48 am
If you want to get even more off topic than this thread has already gotten, nobody’s mentioned that A123 is being sued for patent infringement by UTexas and HydroQuebec for “borrowing” the basic chemistry breakthrough here from the work of Dr. John Goodenough at UT, and that others are manufacturing similar batteries here and now, mostly overseas, and have been licensed by the original patent holders. (see Lifebatt and other PHET-licensed companies). Pricing is still too high though.
I’ll admit A123 has the manufacturing lead here right now BUT–and this is a big but–so many other larger players are committed here to large cell lithium production (Panasonic, Sanyo, Hitachi, Saft, Conti, the list goes on) that I seriously doubt there will be one big winner. Interesting horse race, though, and of course we’ll have a gazillion cheap Chinese knockoffs that may or may not work–their quality control to date on high discharge lipoly packs is fairly abysmal. ABAT and CBAK are two players in that space.
But returning to the real news here, the key points about Conti’s very positive announcement here are the claims that they have
a) developed a safe, reliable, and robust lithium-based HEV pack that I’m assuming has been vetted and approved by Daimler, which is a huge step forward if true–even Toyota hasn’t had the confidence to run lithium-based packs in their Prius beyond a handful of beta testers; and
b) the pack is ready NOW, and is going into some 2009 Mercedes hybrids.
Regardless of your preference for particular lithium chemistries, this is a major achievement and step forward for the entire HEV industry, and ought to be cheered. It will be interesting to see what kind of warranty Mercedes puts on these packs, and of course the big question here in the U.S. is, will these packs meet the very demanding 10-year/150,000-mile standard mandated by California and other greenie states that follow CA’s lead? Anyone know more details here?
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October 2nd, 2008 at 3:13 am
“No Plug No Sale”
no surprise that Deutsch company didn’t find plug-inability to be an issue … check out what they pay for electricity over there (even in the heavily advertised wind mill countries):
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=92216
I suspect that gasoline, at 2-3 times what we pay in the US, is still cheaper than an equivalent amount of electrical power.
“no gas in Atlanta”
come on folks. how else to guarantee record profits than to choke off the source to limit supplies precisely when one knows demand is going to skyrocket … something like the long-term profit motive behind not building new refinerys over the past few decades … basic economics: keep supply down as demand rises equals more profit. My understanding was that refinerys in that end of the country intentionally slowed or stopped refining with the approach of the storm “for the public good”.
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December 22nd, 2008 at 11:26 pm
WELL MY BUDDY ENGINEER (WE BOTH WORKED AT GM ON THE ELECTRIC CAR LONG TIME AGO) HE HAS ALREADY THE NEW NANO
LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE BATTERIES INSTALLED (USED) REPLACING HIS EXISTING LEAD ONES.WE HAVE ALREADY BEATEN GM EV VOLT
(SORRY ABOUT THAT GM!)
I (BOB) JUST WAITING TILL THE PRICES ARE RIGHT AND I WILL POWER
MY 3KWATT ELECTRIC BIKE (SMILES)
REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY TO BE SUCCESS FULL !
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December 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 pm
SEE ABOVE REMARKS
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