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One Step Towards a Cheaper Volt: Senate Passes Plug-in Tax Credit

September 23rd, 2008 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

US lawmakers certainly have their hands full these days. Somehow in the midst of wrangling with the fed over the massive Wall Street bailout plan, the Senate managed to pass a wide-ranging tax bill on Tuesday.

Included in the package is a new tax credit for people who buy plug-in electric cars. The credit starts at $2500 and ranges up to $7500. The tax credit would only phase out after an automaker sold 250,000 vehicles.

Though it needs to be passed by the House and signed by the President, there appears to be a strong sentiment by congress to get this passed quickly, and the White House has already dropped objections.

This bill favors the Volt which is the only formally announced vehicle that would be eligible for the credits, something Toyota has complained about.

On a related note the $25 billion loan to the big-3 US automakers was included in a “must pass” spending bill that will keep the US government running through next March. Voting is likely to take place on Wednesday.

Source (Automotive News, subscription) and (Reuters)

Posted by: Lyle

153 Responses to “One Step Towards a Cheaper Volt: Senate Passes Plug-in Tax Credit”

Arch Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm

See there is hope. Just got to push us up against the wall. I love it!

Take Care
Arch
ziv Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm

Outstanding! Now bring on any other EREV’s & or BEV’s! I don’t care if it is built by GM, Chrysler, Mitsubishi or Toyota, I will consider them all if they have at least 30 miles of AER! I want my car powered by American electricity, not OPEC oil.
beachliving29 Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm

This is good for whichever company puts the first one on their lots.
Norman D. Robinson Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Damn….!!!!!!!!!!!, you Americans have got yourselves the “Sweet-Life” indeed. I have to pay full price for my “Volt” when they hit my Bermudan shores.

We have an import duty on all cars of 150% above the US listed price. That’s a $100,000 car folks for us on this Atlantic rock. No tax assist here.

I’m certain now that when I come to the US to shop for “Christmas” gifts in December 2012 there won’t be a “Volt” left in the Chevy showrooms to stand next to for me to get a picture. “SOLD OUT”

Yeah…..!!! There is really no reason the “Volt” won’t be under 10,000 trees that holiday season.
Mike-o-Matic Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:16 pm

I hate to flog the obvious, folks… but it ain’t passed and signed yet!
Michael Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:26 pm

Lyle – I see you put the real Volt in front of the steps, cool.

If this passes the house, we can stop talking about McCain’s vs. Obama’s incentive plans, and just find out what the price of the Volt is before the incentive.
Morgan Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm

4 Norman:

Yeah, but you live in Bermuda….I think that is a fair trade off
ash Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:48 pm

After Chrysler announcement of there plug-in, I am certain that Toyota and Honda have concrete plug-in plans too, unlike US companies they don’t need to blabber about it.
jdsv Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm

I would give 9 quarts of gasoline (an approximate equivalent of my arm, leg, and life savings) to be isolated in Bermuda right now. By 2015, I could use my PV Volt to power my freezer and blender.. good to go!

On a heavier note..

It’s unfortunate, but if this bill doesn’t pass, I don’t need a Volt anyway, because none of us will need to worry about gas. or daily transportation. or an economy. I’ll head out West with a loosely knit group of agronomical anarchists. Does stuff still grow in Arizona?
N Riley Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:09 pm

This bill, at first glance, is more useful than that passed by the House. We need a good, strong tax credit bill to help get us off foreign oil. This is a step in the right direction.
Statik Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:10 pm

From the article:

Included in the package is a new tax credit for people who buy plug-in electric cars. The credit starts at $2500 and ranges up to $7500. The tax credit would only phase out after an automaker sold 250,000 vehicles.

—————-

Lyle do you have a source on this? I have not seen the official PDF posted on the bill yet.

Not the part about the $2,500-$7,500, I know that is confirmed (max credit on 6kW)…but on the part that it is 250,000 vehicles PER automaker.

Having a cap of 250,000 on rebates and 250,000 per automaker is two very, VERY different things…and takes considerable pressure off of all automakers if true… the potential for massive gov’t spending on the other end is virtually limitless.

250,000 vehicles x $75,000 (max) = 1.8 billion
250,000 vehicles x $75,000 (max) + ?? automakers = ??–potential to be in the tens of billions

…is that really what they signed off on?

I know you don’t like to wade in on ‘the comments’ section of your threads very often…but I really think it is warranted here if you can confirm it. It is a very key component to not only this discussion but the viabilty of the Volt program.

250,000 Volt specific rebates could bridge the gap to when GM can get costing under control. However, if they are racing down just against the Plug-In Prius you have to figure they will only get maybe a quarter of these MAX…add in Chrsyler/Tesla/Mini and the ‘wannabes’ to the mix and GM maybe gets 25,000 of them before they are tapped.

/big, big difference
Mikie Casey Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Tax credit, that means you can deduct it from your tax’s, I’m a senior citizen and on a fixed income and I want a Volt too, but I don’t pay that much in tax’s, so a tax credit wont do me or a lot of baby boomers any good, so we have to pay full price so a tax credit wont make it any cheaper for us. ———NO PLUG NO SALE
Statik Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 pm

#11 Statik (ME)

Obviously I have too many zeros on my $7,500…math is still good though, lol:

250,000 vehicles x $7,000 (max) = 1.8 billion
250,000 vehicles x $7,500 (max) + ?? automakers = ??–potential to be in the tens of billions

Side note: Because I haven’t seen this bill, I don’t know…but are we sure this is a dollar for dollar credit, or is it proportional to your tax rate? Geesh, they are slow posting this today.
Statik Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm

#13 Statik (ME)

Side note: Because I haven’t seen this bill, I don’t know…but are we sure this is a dollar for dollar credit, or is it proportional to your tax rate? Geesh, they are slow posting this today.

———–

Nevermind. I figured it out, lol. I got momentarily confused about the US tax code. It is dollar for dollar.

Handy reference:
http://www.finweb.com/taxes/deductions-vs-credits.html

I assume you run into the AMT problem and lose this credit however if you are in the 150,000-400,000 annual range. I know that was a problem with the Prius credits back in the day…that why they put the “Check that you qualify for this rebate” on all the stickers.
Nick Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:50 pm

For the first tens of thousands of units, this is mostly a gift to GM that will have little impact on how many people buy a Volt. Those people would buy the car at $40k just for the reasons we are all excited about the Volt. So GM can now just raise the price an extra $7500.
JoeAlvord Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 pm

I hope the volt’s as big as the one in the picture. I’d have no trouble fitting into that one.
Kent Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 pm

This will be great for the automakers, but I don’t think any of us will see this credit. Do you all remember the $3,500 credit people got for buying the Prius? Once the credit reached the limit, the cost of the Prius dropped. So either way, we will all pay the same amount anyway with the only difference going to GM, Chrysler or whoever.
KC Eric Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 pm

#17 — interesting point.

One thing I’m wondering (and never heard an answer for): Is it a refundable or non-refundable tax credit?

Is it a one-time thing I assume — meaning you only put it down on your taxes once?
JonP Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 pm

Couple of things from this:

Hasn’t the senate always been the big hurdle, i thought the house has been passing these type of bills for a while now.

I wonder if this will drive Mccain/Obama to raise the bar on “their” proposed energy policies/tax credits

If all of the sudden the Volt cost 45K GM totally shits the bed. That would definitley push the majority of us that were willing to stretch for the cause, but relying on the tax credit to bring it under 35K.

With a $7500 dollar tax credit if priced at 40K, makes this car $32,500. Personally if that’s the case i think GM has achieved the car for the masses, especially if you drive below 40 to work, and then factor in the added maintenance savings.

If that’s the case $32,500 after tax and 6% interest over 5 years your talking about $36,862. A payment of $615.00.

Compared to say a Accord (EX with the navi, which the Volt has plus more) that’s $28,455. After tax and 6% interest over 5 years that’s $32,274. A payment of $538.

Without factoring fuel savings, maintenance savings, or all the other reasons we all want a Volt that’s a difference of $77 a month!!!!!

If that’s the case i’m in, and i bet alot of the other 290,857 people who bought accord’s as of Aug 08′ would consider it.
JonP Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Kent @ 17

“but I don’t think any of us will see this credit. Do you all remember the $3,500 credit people got for buying the Prius? Once the credit reached the limit, the cost of the Prius dropped.”

True, but at the time the Prius had no competition, and was selling to a niche market. (emphasis on “at the time” i don’t think its a niche car anymore)
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:11 am

#14 Statik

The AMT won’t necessarily affect the credit. For example the solar credit isn’t affected. It depends on how its structured.

I’d think most people capable of ponying up for the Volt will be hit by the AMT. It hardly applies only to a select group. (Maybe they’ll finally get around to fixing the thing, perhaps when the Bush tax cuts expire.) Since this is really the Volt rebate bill I’d think GM would be on the case making sure the AMT doesn’t affect it, because, like other posters have noted, we may be looking at a price increase for the Volt in the amount of $7500, assuming the AMT doesn’t apply.
Paul-R Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:12 am

I don’t feel like the US government should be offering tax credits towards any non-US company’s automobiles. The Japanese government certainly won’t be offering tax credits on the Volt in Japan. The policy of the US government should match the policy of our trading partners.
Kent Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:16 am

#20:

Don’t forget….the $3,500 tax credit didn’t apply to just Prius’. There was a credit of varying amounts depending on which hybrid you bought. You could have bought a Civic hybrid or an Escape hybrid and you still would get some type of tax credit.

#17:

Yes, the credit is only a one-time thing.
Sheet4Brains Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:22 am

I don’t trust GM Management to get this Volt on the road. Everyone knows who killed the electric car. GM unleashed their weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) on a perfectly fine EV even after their owner’s wrote GM a check for millions of dollars to keep their vehicles. At least with Chrysler, Nissan and others releasing their own EVs this time GM will NOT be able to get away with their disgraceful tactics this go around. Hurray for Chrysler, Nissan and others. Hopefully GM has learned “some” lessons, but looks like they are going to milk congress for everything they can get their greedy little hands on.
Only in America !! LOL
hayley Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:33 am

tax CREDIT? that’s awesome! somebody correct me if i’m wrong but $7k tax credit is worth like $10k or more when you’re talking about salary (not sure if i’m explaining correctly) because that’s $7000 tax that you don’t have to pay, versus other types of tax incentives where you get to reduce your income for tax purposes by 7000
Studly Doright Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:35 am

The underhanded liberals are trying to attach this massive load of pork onto the necessary DOD funding bill because they know taxpayers would never vote for this crap as a stand-alone bill. What a bunch of cowards in congress who are run by back channel incompetent corporate morons. I hope I live to see the day that a violent citizens revolt shows congress who is really in charge. I pray for that day, the sooner the better.
butters Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:00 am

Whatever. It’s clear that we’re never going to actually pay our way out from under our mountains of public debt, so we might as well spruce up our legacy before our time in imperial sun is over, like the British, Dutch, and Spanish before us.

It’s been one heck of a ride. I know my parents made out well.

You know, with all the road blocks in the way of authentic democracy — the lobbyists, the PACs, the 527s, the Pepsi Challenge that is our two-party system — at least we could maintain the illusion of representative government, however imperfect.

But with our public debt rocketing past 80% of GDP, our lobbyists, our PACs, our 527s, and even the masters of projection we call politicians will be unable to contend with pressure from global capital markets.

The unaccountable institutions we know are giving way to an entirely new set of unaccountable institutions we don’t.

Maybe the Chinese central banks taking the reins of our policy priorities will be a step in the right direction. I wouldn’t be surprised. But we’ll no longer be able to pretend that we are the masters of our own destiny, and that’s more than a little sad.
Len Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:22 am

Amen butters.

As I see it the problem, at the moment, is the flood of houses on the market. Until they dry up there will be a problem. The clever financial swindlers have made it impossible (they say) to determine who owns the debt on what house, therefore it is impossible to tell what the debt is worth. So they say the solution is for the taxpayers to buy the debt so they can clear the books. I don’t care about their books. If they have created instruments that have no clear visibility to the assets they have loaned money for – tough, they should have thought of that when they created this cr*p. No tangible assets, no value. It is worth zip.

Go Volt! Go Crysler! Go anyone that gets us off oil.
omegaman66 Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:23 am

This might help get plug-ins going but it wont help you save money. If you get the full deduction then you simply break even after doing the paperwork. If you don’t get the full deduction you just gave a donation because you can bet the price of the Volt is adjusted for there tax rebates.
kubel Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:31 am

Tax Rebate > Tax Credit > Tax Deduction > Nothing

Tax deduction is less what you would list as taxable income. You can never deduct more than what you owe.
Tax credit is less what you would normally owe in taxes. You can never apply more credits than what you owe.
Tax rebate is like a tax credit, but it can exceed what you owe.

I was personally hoping for a tax rebate to really spark the revolution of the electrification of the automobile. But I suppose if you don’t make enough money to make full use of this tax credit, you probably won’t be able to afford a first (or second, or third, or fourth…) EREV anyway.

::Reality sets in and starts looking for a new gas car::
Dick G. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:47 am

Will my pre-owned plug EV that I bought in April 2008 qualify ?
Dick G. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:35 am

If anyone can get the full attention of 3 or 4 high level federal law makers, I can show them how every new EV & E-REV owner ( not just 250,000 of them ) can get a $20,000 rebate …..And the rebate plan will go on until we have 250 million EV’s & E-REV’s on the road……………………..GUARANTEED !!!!!!!!!!!
joe obrien Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:00 am

Seeing as how this bullshit 700 Billion bailout will only cost every taxpayer around $6,000 in the long run, at least there will be $1,500 left over after I buy a Volt.

I really hate this brain dead government sometimes. Wall St is an addict, and they came crashing down because of greed, and more greed, and it bit them in the ass. So what do we do? We give them $700 Billion worth of Herion to keep them addicted while billing the taxpayers for it all.

It won’t cure Wall St’s ways, just temporarily let them ride a nice HIGH for a few more years.

We should have just let these banks fail, then in time those who made good investments would rise out of the ashes, and Wall St. would have came out clean and sober for a while. But not after we gave them a fresh $700 Billion injection of drugs.

We’re screwed.
Len Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:12 am

We haven’t given it to them yet. Email your congressman and senator. This bird don’t hunt. No way.

Go Volt! Go Electric cars!
Dick G. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:38 am

#34 Len …..That was 16 US 145’s…….#183 the day you asked…
Len Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:52 am

Thanks, Dick G. I dug a bit further and found that Bradley became the Electric Vehicle Corporation (1981 ahead of their time) then went belly up. I also found a fellow who has done both the original Bradley and the GTII and sells a CD set on the plans and parts sources, tips and such. I am looking at the batteries you obtained and also some called Oasis that are made using a foamed lead process that are supposed to be lighter and about one and a half times more powerful than regular lead acid batteries. With a 40 mile range I could make it to work where I could charge it for the ride home. Living in central Florida I don’t need any creature comforts. My Subaru has neither heat nor air. I carry a little plug in heater for the two days a year that I need defrost. With over 230k miles on it, the milage is still 29 mpg over a tank and in 10k miles it goes through a quart of oil (100% synthetic).

My next car will be electric if I have to build it myself.

Go Volt! Go electric cars!
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:53 am

From the article: “Included in the package is a new tax credit for people who buy plug-in electric cars. The credit starts at $2500 and ranges up to $7500. The tax credit would only phase out after an automaker sold 250,000 vehicles.

This bill favors the Volt which is the only formally announced vehicle that would be eligible for the credits, something Toyota has complained about.”
————————————————————————————-
Lyle, I’d like to know more about this. The links provided don’t help. The Automotive News link requires an auto industry job, and the Reuters link doesn’t say anything about the Volt or tax credits.

Questions include:
• Will the tax credit require an all-electric drive train?
• Will it be based on kWh of the battery?
• Exactly why will the Plug-In Prius not qualify?
• If the Plug-In Prius does not qualify, what about the Plug-In Saturn Vue?
• The article says only the Volt will qualify. What about the Fisker Karma?

Can anyone else answer these questions?
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:59 am

#32 Dick G. Says: “If anyone can get the full attention of 3 or 4 high level federal law makers, I can show them how every new EV & E-REV owner ( not just 250,000 of them ) can get a $20,000 rebate…”
————————————————————————————–
You have access to 3 high level federal law makers, two senators and one congressman. Write them a letter. E-mails are much less effective. Postal adresses available here:
http://www.senate.gov
http://www.house.gov
jabroni Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:27 am

So… a 40,000 dollar MSRP Volt would be sold to us for 32,500….right?

I would assume that the auto dealer would get the 7500 credit straight form the government and then apply the discount directly to us.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:30 am

#27 butters Says: “Whatever. It’s clear that we’re never going to actually pay our way out from under our mountains of public debt, …
Maybe the Chinese central banks taking the reins of our policy priorities will be a step in the right direction…”
————————————————————————————–
The national debt is really scary. $Billions, $Trillions – these figures are meaningless to most people.

Here are some meaningful figures. If you take the U.S. national debt, divide it by the U.S. population, and then multiply for a family of 4, you get the following:

• For a family of 4, your portion of the national debt is $128,500.
• For a family of 4, your debt portion is increasing at a rate of $862/month.

Note that this does not include any of the recently announced government bailouts which will probably add around $12,000 more debt for a family of 4.

So who is it exactly that we owe this money? The largest purchaser of U.S. treasury notes is the Chinese. Right now, 15% of the U.S. budget goes toward paying the debt. That means that around 15 cents of every tax dollar goes directly to China.

When I hear politicians talking about human rights in China, I just have to laugh. Pretty soon, they will own us, and they’ll be telling us what to do…
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:32 am

#37 Dave G

Questions include:
• Will the tax credit require an all-electric drive train?
• Will it be based on kWh of the battery?
• Exactly why will the Plug-In Prius not qualify?
• If the Plug-In Prius does not qualify, what about the Plug-In Saturn Vue?
• The article says only the Volt will qualify. What about the Fisker Karma?

Can anyone else answer these questions?
—————

I’ll take a stab if you don’t mind:

1.) I think the criteria for eligibility is being a PHEV, so a plug and the capability of going any distance ‘unblended’

2.) It is definitly battery based subsidy…max rebate at 6kW.

3.) The Plug-In Prius does apply, the regular ‘next gen’ Prius will not even though it can apparently drive electric only up to 60 mph, the battery is reported to be in the 1.5kW range, and no plug of course…thats why Toyota was all pissy about it at the hearings.

4.) Plug-In Saturn would qualify

5.) Fisker too

—————–

What we still don’t have is confirmation that 250,000 rebates are PER automaker…or for the industry as a whole.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:39 am

#39 jabroni Says: “So… a 40,000 dollar MSRP Volt would be sold to us for 32,500….right?

I would assume that the auto dealer would get the 7500 credit straight form the government and then apply the discount directly to us.”
————————————————————————————–
First, GM’s CEO has recently said the Volt will be priced in the mid to high 30’s, so figure closer to $30,000 after tax credits.

Second, as I understand it, you don’t get the tax credit until your next tax return. For example, if you buy a Volt using cash in November of 2010, then you would get a tax credit when you file your return for tax year 2010. This would normally be sometime between Feb 1st and April 15th of 2011. The $7500 tax credit will be subtracted from the Tax Due amount. If you normally get a refund, this refund will be increased by $7500.

As for financing or leasing, I’m not sure how this will work.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:44 am

#41 Statik,

Lyle’s article says:
“This bill favors the Volt which is the only formally announced vehicle that would be eligible for the credits, something Toyota has complained about.”

Do you think this is incorrect?
Dave B Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:47 am

Anyone else get the feeling the US is going the way of the Soviet Union?–no I’m not talking socialist (although that argument is growing stronger). I’m talking bankrupt.

Since Uncle Sam is giving money out for free, I mise well step up to the plate and take some too.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:47 am

#42 Dave G

First, GM’s CEO has recently said the Volt will be priced in the mid to high 30’s, so figure closer to $30,000 after tax credits.

———————
I’m seriously doubting this fact. Toyota jacked the hybrid price by the amount of the rebate.

The rebate is a good thing for us in the fact that plug-in vehicles will be getting to market much faster, nothing else…but we (royal we) aren’t going to see this money.

If you think GM, Chrsyler or Toyota (whoever) is leaving the price the same as if there was no rebate, your borderline crazy, lol. They are all jacking the price up in their headup by $7,000 right now (I left the consumer the extra $500 lol).

The days of a Volt in the ‘mid 30s’ are looooong gone. Surely everyone has noticed that the reported price estimates on the Volt is a steadfastly around $40,000 now…with places like the WSJ pegging harder numbers like 42-45K. Our landed to consumer price is still mid to high 30s.

Same story for the Plug-In Prius. Toyota estimated the conversion should be around $5,000 more when the concept first came out. Anyone want to bet the Plug-In will be cheaper than the standard next gen Prius? Probably not. It will still be $5,000 more.
————
At least once this thing is officially passed GM can spit out the number it has been thinking all along.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:00 am

#43 Dave G

#41 Statik,

Lyle’s article says:
“This bill favors the Volt which is the only formally announced vehicle that would be eligible for the credits, something Toyota has complained about.”

Do you think this is incorrect?
—————-
It is correct in as much as the Volt is the only vehicle that has ‘formally announced’ production dates from any big automaker. Toyota was pretty pissy when it went to testify, because its next gen Prius gets nothing out of it.

The bill certainly ‘favors’ the Volt, because at the time of the rebate floating around, only GM even had plans to be to market with a 6kW+ PHEV…and they were perceived to be farthest along.

Once it was looking like a reality you noticed the Plug-In Prius went from a ‘we are not sure on viability, maybe we’ll put out limited numbers in late 2010′ to ’small quantities in 2009 and full production in 2010′ and suddenly Chrysler is out in the public’s eye.

This is why it is VERY important if the rebate is 250,000 total rebates and it’s done…or 250,000 per automaker, HUGE difference.
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:08 am

“http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:4:./temp/~c110CdVaaA:e89214:”
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:09 am

HR 6049 on senate calendar
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:13 am

#47, 48 RB

Nice…thanks!
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:24 am

To anyone that tries to copy and paste RB’s link, the LoC timestamps them to expire…you have to start a new search.

Side note: I’m having stome trouble figuring out how they get to $7,500 max credit still, lol.

SEC. 30D, Per Vehicle Dollar Limitation-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The amount determined under this subsection with respect to any new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle is the sum of the amounts determined under paragraphs (2) and (3) with respect to such vehicle.

`(2) BASE AMOUNT- The amount determined under this paragraph is $3,000.

`(3) BATTERY CAPACITY- In the case of a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $200, plus $200 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $2,000.

I’m assuming this has to connect to a application with other credits found elsewhere? Geesh.
GXT Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am

19. JonP,

People buy Accord EX for many reasons. Reliability, Resale, Size, Power, and a touch of Luxury.

The Volt has none of those (cheap looking LCD’s and gawdy ipod stack not withstanding).

Plus it doesn’t change the fact that GM has no hope of making more than a fraction of the Accord’s volume.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am

From #47 RB’s link:
“IN GENERAL- The term `new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle’ means a motor vehicle …
`(F) which is propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor which draws electricity from a battery which–
`(i) has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours, and
`(ii) is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.”
————————————————————————————-
Does the Plug-In Prius have a 4kWh battery? Does the Saturn Vue?

By the way, thanks for the link RB!
Michael Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:29 am

#50 Statik – I was able to use copy and paste. What am I missing here? I add up $3000 for the vehicle and $200 per kWh above 5 kWh, up to a maximum of $2000. That adds up to $5000. Where did $7500 come from?

I see your edit comes to the same conclusion. It might be in that “Subpart A.”
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:31 am

#52 Dave G

Plug-In Vue has 16kW, the Plug-In Prius concept had 6.3kW (total power 5+1.3)
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:35 am

This however affects the Volt:

SEC. 30D (e)

PHASEOUT PERIOD- For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the number of new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles manufactured by the manufacturer of the vehicle referred to in paragraph (1) sold for use in the United States after the date of the enactment of this section, is at least 60,000.

`(3) APPLICABLE PERCENTAGE- For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable percentage is–

`(A) 50 percent for the first 2 calendar quarters of the phaseout period,

`(B) 25 percent for the 3d and 4th calendar quarters of the phaseout period, and

`(C) 0 percent for each calendar quarter thereafter.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:40 am

By the way, #47 RB’s link seems to be a house bill, and Lyle is talking about a Senate bill in the article, so that’s probably why the discrepancy ($5K vs. $7.5K).
DC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Congress has to stop with all of these nonsensical bailout plans. I understand the concept behind it, sure, make people happy to buy an environmentally friendly car. But if these cars cant stand on their own financial merit they should not stand at all.

Without any tax credit whatsoever GM will sell out of the Volt in the first few years pretty much regardless of the price. Anyone want to argue that???

These billion dollar programs are coming out of our tax pockets and being added to the tab that our kids will end up paying for. No thanks, I’ll pass.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:46 am

So we can glean that this is indeed a ‘per manufacturer’ rebate, but that as soon as they hit 60K, phaseouts occur. Quick napkin-back scratches for the Volt:

2011 -10K units – $7,500 rebate
2012 – 60K – $7,500 rebate (GM hits 60,000 units in Q4 2012)
2012 Jan-March- Full $7,500 rebate
2012 April-September – $3,750
2012 October-December – $1,875
2013 January-March – $1,875

What does this mean to you, Volt consumer? It means if you are in the NY, CA, FL or DC areas you will be getting the full rebate…if you don’t, you aren’t going to get anything.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:46 am

#54 Statik Says: “Plug-In Vue has 16kW, the Plug-In Prius concept had 6.3kW (total power 5+1.3)”
————————————————————————————–
Wow! That’s higher than I expected. The Vue has the same size battery as the Volt! Where did you get this info? I’ve been googleing and couldn’t find anything.
Cautious Fan Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:53 am

Wasn’t GM going to produce the Volt before the gov’t ever announced these credits. So is the gov’t really accomplishing anything here besides just spending tax money to look good.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:56 am

#56 Dave G

By the way, #47 RB’s link seems to be a house bill, and Lyle is talking about a Senate bill in the article, so that’s probably why the discrepancy ($5K vs. $7.5K).

——

Yeah it could have alterations, what we are looking at is the June 5 (legislative day, June 4), 2008, Renewable Energy and Job Creation Act of 2008 (Placed on Calendar in Senate).

I’ve been trying to run it down, but I think the change might be to 30D, sebsection 3:

`(3) BATTERY CAPACITY- In the case of a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $200, plus $200 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $2,000.

I believe this may have been bumped to $200 to $500. Nothing like weeding through paper first thing in the morning.
Tim Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:58 am

I’m ALWAYS worried about the titles of these bills which include the words “… and for other purposes.”

These bills are often 90% pork for special interests to lubricate the 10% that is good for the rest of us peon taxpayers who are ALWAYS forced to pay the WHOLE tab.

Tax credits… OK, we pay too much anyway.

Direct payments… HELL NO! NO TAX MONEY TO FOR PROFIT COMPANIES UNLESS THE GOV’T IS BUYING GOODS OR SERVICES… PERIOD.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:58 am

#57 DC Says: “…But if these cars cant stand on their own financial merit they should not stand at all.”
————————————————————————————–
That’s why the tax credits are phased-out based on unit volume. In other words, as unit volumes ramp up, manufacturing costs come down, and the tax credits are no longer necessary.

For an example, look at the Toyota Prius. They have sold so many of these cars that the tax credits have been totally phased out. For a complete list of today’s available hybrids and current tax credits, see here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/cr_hy_3.jpg

If there is no Volt tax credit, then GM may sell 20,000 to 30,000 Volts to enthusiasts over a few years, which is nothing in the scheme of things. That’s why tax credits are phased out at much higher unit volumes, like 60,000-250,000 units.
Michael Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:06 am

Check out this morning’s Dilbert. http://www.dilbert.com/
DC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:08 am

Sorry but I absolutely disagree that the Volt would only sell to enthusiasts with no tax credit. Electric cars are a game changer. GM will have people lined up to buy this car especially if it is limited numbers in limited cities. LA and DC are two of the biggest centers of wealth in the country. I dont think the folks that buy them in the first 2-3 years are really going to need a tax credit to buy one – thats not going to be the decision maker between buying or not buying. Then when the price starts to drop and youre in version 2 or 3 of the car/upgrades and the car is more widely available – this thing is going to be sold as fast as dealers can get them (along with a dealer markup of course).

Same with the Prius. No one that I know that has a Prius bought one because of the tax break. Not one.

There are a lot better things the government should be spending money on than another billion dollar bailout/propup program.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:09 am

#59 Dave G

Wow! That’s higher than I expected. The Vue has the same size battery as the Volt! Where did you get this info? I’ve been googleing and couldn’t find anything.

——————
Honestly, I don’t know. I thought it mentioned during the press conference on it’s debut. So I could be way off base to be fair. I’ll hunt around for a link for you if I can find it.

What I do know for sure is that the 2-mode works on 1.8 kWh NiMH battery pack, one has to assume the plug-in will be much, much larger than this and qualify for the full credit…or very, very close.
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:17 am

#56 Dave G notes “By the way, #47 RB’s link seems to be a house bill, and Lyle is talking about a Senate bill in the article, so that’s probably why the discrepancy ($5K vs. $7.5K).”
=======================================

As you know, the constitutional requirement is that tax bills originate in the House. Thus they are considered by the Senate after House passage. So if one looks up the bill by number, it is important to select the version of the House bill that is on the Senate calendar. That will be the one passed by the House, rather than some earlier version of the house bill that was considered and later amended.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:18 am

Roll call details from September 23, 2008 on the bill:

http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/5037

The subsection was not amended, and it went through the Senate ‘as is.’ So obviously it must be working in conjunction with another bill? Maybe this bill works inconjunction with the hybrid rebates….overlap?

“Passed House amended. (This measure has not been amended since it was reported to the House on May 20, 2008. The summary of that version is repeated here.)”
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:23 am

#60 Cautious Fan Says: “Wasn’t GM going to produce the Volt before the gov’t ever announced these credits. So is the gov’t really accomplishing anything here besides just spending tax money to look good.”
————————————————————————————–
Normally, car makers lose money on new models until the unit volume ramps up. This is normal. Toyota lost money on the Prius at first. In Jan. 2007, GM expected they would do the same.

But then gas prices went up, and people stopped buying SUVs and pickups. In addition, high gas prices got a lot more people interested in the Volt. So GM found that it was no longer in a financial position to lose a lot of money initially on the Volt.

In order to get over this hump and make the transition to new types of cars, the government is looking at tax credits and loan guarantees. Without this, it’s quite possible that all 3 U.S. based car manufacturers will go bankrupt.
nataraj Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:28 am

This is similar to the one included with the house drilling bill.

BTW, if you get hit with AMT – this is of no use – though there may be a measure to increase the minimum income for AMT.
arty Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:29 am

Finally Congress does something productive for the EV industry. Just like the previous tax credit applicable to the Prius and Insight, this will encourage purchase of new technology. Which means more jobs for Americans and others.

How and why do we pay for all this? We pay with money NOT spent on foreign oil imports. And money NOT spent on foreign military stableizing hostile nations’ oil resources. Volt and other PHEV sales will meet the 250k limit by 2013 – making this a 4 year jumpstart plan.

GO GM VOLT!
DC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:38 am

@ Arty #71

Uh huh, we also pay for this billion dollar program with money not spent on public infrastructure, public education, public health programs or any of another 50 programs that are in more need of public tax funding than the release of a new freaking car.

You know what would get us off oil even more? Wind power – or solar, biomass, nuclear, natural gas, clean coal etc etc etc. I’d rather put the money towards that then paying people out of the tax coffers to buy a certain kind of car.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am

#59 Dave G

Wow! That’s higher than I expected. The Vue has the same size battery as the Volt! Where did you get this info? I’ve been googleing and couldn’t find anything.

—————

You know what, I think I’m off my rocker on this one.

I’ve been doing more ‘napkin-back’ math on estimated power needed to propel a vehicle that size for 10 miles…and at ‘low speed’ only (higher efficiency) and I keep coming up with numbers like 6-8kW. I can find no link on hard numbers either.

The only thing I can find to give a clue to A) me being totally wrong…and B) to the pack size, is this from GM’s press kit on the plug-in Vue:

“The vehicle’s lithium-ion batteries can be fully recharged in four to five hours by simply connecting the vehicle to any standard 110V household electrical outlet.”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/14/detroit-2008-saturn-vue-green-line-plug-in-hybrid/

Assuming the Volt (@16kW) and a 8 hour charge (110), this leads me to believe 7-8kW is probably more the order or the day.

/my apologies (and exactly why I try to source/link everything, sometimes you just say things believeing them to be true and not needing sourcing…and mass chaos erupts)
Dale Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am

#27 Butters

You are right – this current crises is nothing to the big debt picture.

Would a balance budget amendment be our only way out? If so do we start a website coordinating the effort – in these days of the Internet – we may have the ability to quickly raise the signatures etc.. required to make it happen.

We need to raise the age of entitlements (Social Security and medicare) and stop spending – but alas our congress for the past 60 years has decided to go to the will of the PAC’s and lobbyists instead of doing our business
Nelson Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:56 am

A tax rebate should not have been an option until the plug-in vehicles were in the show rooms including the Volt. The Government has been out foxed by the automotive industry again.

If I were the President I would veto the Bill. Government stipulation should read – “Start selling your plug-in vehicles and if we deem it necessary, we will allow a tax rebate as long as the price on the vehicle stays the same.”

This tells the automotive industry to price their vehicles as aggressively as possible because a tax credit is not guaranteed. It also gives the Government the power to infuse money into the public’s hands instead of the auto manufactures pockets.
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:56 am

statik says “What does this mean to you, Volt consumer? It means if you are in the NY, CA, FL or DC areas you will be getting the full rebate…if you don’t, you aren’t going to get anything.”
=============================

Yes, the situation is normal. Those poor people in NY,CA,FL and DC are getting subsidies from the much richer people in AL, MS, ND, CO etc.

Another way of thinking about it is that some states are much more skillful than others in getting subsidies from the feds.
Rich F. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:56 am

I found this article on kicking tires that describes a $5,000 tax credit for the Volt.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/09/plug-in-tax-cre.html
Brad G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:05 am

#58 Statik says:
So we can glean that this is indeed a ‘per manufacturer’ rebate, but that as soon as they hit 60K, phaseouts occur. Quick napkin-back scratches for the Volt:

2011 -10K units – $7,500 rebate
2012 – 60K – $7,500 rebate (GM hits 60,000 units in Q4 2012)
2012 Jan-March- Full $7,500 rebate
2012 April-September – $3,750
2012 October-December – $1,875
2013 January-March – $1,875

What does this mean to you, Volt consumer? It means if you are in the NY, CA, FL or DC areas you will be getting the full rebate…if you don’t, you aren’t going to get anything.
======================================
Statik,
This is my post exactly except you left out the #%*@ word, if you live outside NY, CA, FL or DC!
Rich F. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:11 am

Here is the actual text of the bill (if you care to look at it):

H.R.6899
Comprehensive American Energy Security and Consumer Protection Act (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)

——————————————————————————–

SEC. 824. CREDIT FOR NEW QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES.

(a) In General- Section 30 is amended to read as follows:

`SEC. 30. NEW QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES.

`(a) Allowance of Credit- There shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this chapter for the taxable year an amount equal to the sum of the credit amounts determined under subsection (b) with respect to each new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year.

`(b) Per Vehicle Dollar Limitation-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The amount determined under this subsection with respect to any new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle is the sum of the amounts determined under paragraphs (2) and (3) with respect to such vehicle.

`(2) BASE AMOUNT- The amount determined under this paragraph is $3,000.

`(3) BATTERY CAPACITY- In the case of a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $200, plus $200 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $2,000.

`(c) Application With Other Credits-

`(1) BUSINESS CREDIT TREATED AS PART OF GENERAL BUSINESS CREDIT- So much of the credit which would be allowed under subsection (a) for any taxable year (determined without regard to this subsection) that is attributable to property of a character subject to an allowance for depreciation shall be treated as a credit listed in section 38(b) for such taxable year (and not allowed under subsection (a)).

`(2) PERSONAL CREDIT-

`(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of this title, the credit allowed under subsection (a) for any taxable year (determined after application of paragraph (1)) shall be treated as a credit allowable under subpart A for such taxable year.

`(B) LIMITATION BASED ON AMOUNT OF TAX- In the case of a taxable year to which section 26(a)(2) does not apply, the credit allowed under subsection (a) for any taxable year (determined after application of paragraph (1)) shall not exceed the excess of–

`(i) the sum of the regular tax liability (as defined in section 26(b)) plus the tax imposed by section 55, over

`(ii) the sum of the credits allowable under subpart A (other than this section and sections 23 and 25D) and section 27 for the taxable year.

`(d) New Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle- For purposes of this section–

`(1) IN GENERAL- The term `new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle’ means a motor vehicle–

`(A) the original use of which commences with the taxpayer,

`(B) which is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer and not for resale,

`(C) which is made by a manufacturer,

`(D) which has a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 14,000 pounds,

`(E) which has received a certificate of conformity under the Clean Air Act and meets or exceeds the Bin 5 Tier II emission standard established in regulations prescribed by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency under section 202(i) of the Clean Air Act for that make and model year vehicle, and

`(F) which is propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor which draws electricity from a battery which–

`(i) has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours, and

`(ii) is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.

`(2) EXCEPTION- The term `new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle’ shall not include any vehicle which is not a passenger automobile or light truck if such vehicle has a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 8,500 pounds.

`(3) MOTOR VEHICLE- The term `motor vehicle’ means any vehicle which is manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways (not including a vehicle operated exclusively on a rail or rails) and which has at least 4 wheels.

`(4) OTHER TERMS- The terms `passenger automobile’, `light truck’, and `manufacturer’ have the meanings given such terms in regulations prescribed by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency for purposes of the administration of title II of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7521 et seq.).

`(5) BATTERY CAPACITY- The term `capacity’ means, with respect to any battery, the quantity of electricity which the battery is capable of storing, expressed in kilowatt hours, as measured from a 100 percent state of charge to a 0 percent state of charge.

`(e) Limitation on Number of New Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicles Eligible for Credit-

`(1) IN GENERAL- In the case of a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle sold during the phaseout period, only the applicable percentage of the credit otherwise allowable under subsection (a) shall be allowed.

`(2) PHASEOUT PERIOD- For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the number of new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles manufactured by the manufacturer of the vehicle referred to in paragraph (1) sold for use in the United States after the date of the enactment of this section, is at least 60,000.

`(3) APPLICABLE PERCENTAGE- For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable percentage is–

`(A) 50 percent for the first 2 calendar quarters of the phaseout period,

`(B) 25 percent for the 3d and 4th calendar quarters of the phaseout period, and

`(C) 0 percent for each calendar quarter thereafter.

`(4) CONTROLLED GROUPS- Rules similar to the rules of section 30B(f)(4) shall apply for purposes of this subsection.

`(f) Special Rules-

`(1) BASIS REDUCTION- The basis of any property for which a credit is allowable under subsection (a) shall be reduced by the amount of such credit (determined without regard to subsection (c)).

`(2) RECAPTURE- The Secretary shall, by regulations, provide for recapturing the benefit of any credit allowable under subsection (a) with respect to any property which ceases to be property eligible for such credit.

`(3) PROPERTY USED OUTSIDE UNITED STATES, ETC., NOT QUALIFIED- No credit shall be allowed under subsection (a) with respect to any property referred to in section 50(b)(1) or with respect to the portion of the cost of any property taken into account under section 179.

`(4) ELECTION NOT TO TAKE CREDIT- No credit shall be allowed under subsection (a) for any vehicle if the taxpayer elects to not have this section apply to such vehicle.

`(5) PROPERTY USED BY TAX-EXEMPT ENTITY; INTERACTION WITH AIR QUALITY AND MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS- Rules similar to the rules of paragraphs (6) and (10) of section 30B(h) shall apply for purposes of this section.’.

(b) Coordination With Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit- Section 30B(d)(3) is amended by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:

`(D) EXCLUSION OF PLUG-IN VEHICLES- Any vehicle with respect to which a credit is allowable under section 30 (determined without regard to subsection (c) thereof) shall not be taken into account under this section.’.

(c) Credit Made Part of General Business Credit- Section 38(b) is amended by striking `plus’ at the end of paragraph (32), by striking the period at the end of paragraph (33) and inserting `, plus’, and by adding at the end the following new paragraph:

`(34) the portion of the new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle credit to which section 30(c)(1) applies.’.

(d) Conforming Amendments-

(1)(A) Section 24(b)(3)(B), as amended by section 804, is amended by striking `and 25D’ and inserting `25D, and 30′.

(B) Section 25(e)(1)(C)(ii) is amended by inserting `30,’ after `25D,’.

(C) Section 25B(g)(2), as amended by section 804, is amended by striking `and 25D’ and inserting `, 25D, and 30′.

(D) Section 26(a)(1), as amended by section 804, is amended by striking `and 25D’ and inserting `25D, and 30′.

(E) Section 1400C(d)(2) is amended by striking `and 25D’ and inserting `25D, and 30′.

(2) Section 30B(h)(1) is amended by striking `section 30(c)(2)’ and inserting `section 30(d)(3)’.

(3)(A) Section 53(d)(1)(B) is amended by striking clause (iii) and redesignating clause (iv) as clause (iii).

(B) Subclause (II) of section 53(d)(1)(B)(iii), as so redesignated, is amended by striking `increased in the manner provided in clause (iii)’.

(4) Section 55(c)(3) is amended by striking `30(b)(3),’.

(5) Section 1016(a)(25) is amended by striking `section 30(d)(1)’ and inserting `section 30(f)(1)’.

(6) Section 6501(m) is amended by striking `section 30(d)(4)’ and inserting `section 30(f)(4)’.

(7) The item in the table of sections for subpart B of part IV of subchapter A of chapter 1 is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 30. New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles.’.

(e) Treatment of Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit as a Personal Credit-

(1) IN GENERAL- Paragraph (2) of section 30B(g) is amended to read as follows:

`(2) PERSONAL CREDIT- The credit allowed under subsection (a) for any taxable year (after application of paragraph (1)) shall be treated as a credit allowable under subpart A for such taxable year.’.

(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS-

(A) Subparagraph (A) of section 30C(d)(2) is amended by striking `sections 27, 30, and 30B’ and inserting `section 27′.

(B) Paragraph (3) of section 55(c) is amended by striking `30B(g)(2),’.

(f) Effective Date-

(1) IN GENERAL- Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, the amendments made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2008.

(2) TREATMENT OF ALTERNATIVE MOTOR VEHICLE CREDIT AS PERSONAL CREDIT- The amendments made by subsection (e) shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2007.

(g) Application of EGTRRA Sunset- The amendment made by subsection (d)(1)(A) shall be subject to title IX of the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 in the same manner as the provision of such Act to which such amendment relates.
Rich F. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:17 am

In Connecticut they eliminated the sales tax for qualified hybrid vehicles for a period of time. We should push our local state legislatures to enact similar legislation for plug-in hybrids. That saves quite a bit of $$$$ as well.
Mike-o-Matic Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:26 am

@33 Joe Obrien,
>> We’re screwed.

Optimist!!

; – ]
Joe Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am

Here’s some more info on the tax credit. I’ve not read all of this posting, so I hope no one else has already put this one on.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/24/senate-passes-legislation-including-phev-tax-credits/
Jackson Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:38 am

Would anyone who did not quickly scroll past #79 give the rest of us the bottom line (if possible?) ;-o
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:41 am

#76 RB – “Another way of thinking about it is that some states are much more skillful than others in getting subsidies from the feds.”

You are so right about this. Interestingly enough the “Red” states get much higher subsidies than the “Blue” states. (Not a color mistake). California and New York residents pay much more in federal taxes than they get in return. Residents of states like Alaska pay relatively little and get much more in return. Here’s a Hoover Institute (conservative think tank) study on the issue:

http://psweb.sbs.ohio-state.edu/faculty/hweisberg/conference/Lacy-OSUConf.PDF

So if CA and NY get all the rebates it would help even things out.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:48 am

GXT @ 51

“People buy Accord EX for many reasons. Reliability, Resale, Size, Power, and a touch of Luxury.”

Luxury:
I have a 06 Accord. I can’t think of 1 luxurious thing it has the Volt won’t.
Power:
I’m pretty sure from 0-100mph the volt will be alot more powerful.

Resale:
It’s impossible to buy a used Prius right now, and if you can its probably close to its original value. That’s because the demand for high mileage vehicles is very high. I don’t see that changing in the near future so i would expect the Volt (or any other electric drive car) to hold its value very well.

Size:
IMO if you have a real need for a 5 passenger car your not buying an accord.

Reliability:
Well we’ll have to wait and see about that, there is less moving parts though, and most of the moving parts will be used substantially less.

————————————————————————————–
Statik @ 45
“If you think GM, Chrysler or Toyota (whoever) is leaving the price the same as if there was no rebate, your borderline crazy, lol. They are all jacking the price up in their headup by $7,000 right now (I left the consumer the extra $500 lol).

The days of a Volt in the ‘mid 30s’ are looooong gone. Surely everyone has noticed that the reported price estimates on the Volt is a steadfastly around $40,000 now”
==========================
As i have said before, Toyota had little riding on the Prius and almost no competition. They at the time were selling to a niche market that was lees concerned about price, and tax credits. Also with or without the $3500, the car was still under $30K. Which already made it available to a large portion of the market. As compared to the Volt the difference between 38-40K & 45K crosses a threshold that puts the car outside of the large majority’s buying power.

As far as the Days of mid 30’s being looooong gone. Instead of listening to the WSJ, and other journalist that may have their own agendas and very little inside information. I’ll go with the CEO of the company that said not even 1 months ago.

“Wagoner was asked about price. He replied that they haven’t worked out final pricing yet but expects the initial cars to come out in the mid to upper 30s.” If you watch the Video he definitively says “it won’t be 40″. He’s not new to the game of double-talk or saying nothing, but he was definitive on the Volt won’t be in the 40’s.

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/08/18/1/part-one-of-a-look-at-gm-with-ceo-rick-wagoner
Jeff Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am

Hmmm…not to sound too negative…

- Freddic Mac and Fannie Mae bailout
- AIG bailout
- PlugIn tax credit

What’s next? Uncle Sam seems to be the rich uncle with a bleeding heart. Of course, the PlugIn tax credit could be viewed a little different. The free market system seems to be fading away.
noel park Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:52 am

Looks like the Senate bill is better than the House version. So much the better. 250K per manufacturer would be entirely appropriate. It’s good public policy to lower oil consumption, and it’s waaaaay cheaper than fighting wars. Or bailing out Wall Street, BTW.

LJGTVWOTR!!
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:54 am

#83 Jackson

I think Statik has it down fairly well. One point no one has brought up is that the Aptera doesn’t qualify because it’s not a motor vehicle. That seems unjustified.

I can’t tell about the AMT which is an interesting question.
arty Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Aptera IS a motor vehicle – it is a three wheeled motorcycle. Don’t know the size of its battery but it must be at least 5kWh.
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:11 am

I wouldn’t take the DC and NY geographic areas too literally. GM is probably picking large dealers in these areas to sell and service the cars. The DC car dealers are probably in VA or MD rather than DC, and they have a history of selling into surrounding states. Ditto for NY which will probably be the NY/NJ/PA area.

CA is tougher because the urban centers are along the coast and aren’t very close to other states.

I’d be surprised if MI doesn’t get a few as well.

In any event I’d expect this limited distribution to be for the first 10,000 – 20,000 cars. After that the distribution will expand, which should be early/mid 2011. There is some confusion here with some saying the production for all of 2010-2011 will be 10,000 cars, but once production starts I can’t see GM producing less than 5000 cars a month. (Partly my thinking is that Nov/Dec is two months at 5000 for 10,000 and Jan-Dec is twelve months at 5000 for a total of 60,000).
Eric Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:12 am

Why is anyone excited about this tax break? GM will just raise the price of the Volt and say “Ah, but look, you get $7500 back! You can now expect the volt to be about $45,000.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:17 am

Eric @91

see the bottom of post 85
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:18 am

Guys there not going to sell a Chevy for $45K

They would of just made it a Cadillac, and had minimal resistance at that price
Miller Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:20 am

#24 You are both right and wrong. You are right about GM killing the EV but wrong about the reasons they did it for. Anyways, I could barely imagine you being correct about anything, after all you have ______4brains.
DC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am

And not only could it be more expensive – but again – dealers will also add a $5,000 “High Demand Car” surcharge onto the sticker. Happens all the time.
dennis Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:25 am

Memo to the moon:
Watch out! I hear Chevy is aiming for you

side note:
Where’s my 5th rear seat?
Bob Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am

The price will go up by the amount of the subsidy. Even if GM does raise its price above cost by the whole amount, the dealers will still add diddly-boom options to each and every one on the lot.
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:41 am

#73 Statik Says: “I’ve been doing more ‘napkin-back’ math on estimated power needed to propel a vehicle that size for 10 miles…and at ‘low speed’ only (higher efficiency) and I keep coming up with numbers like 6-8kW. I can find no link on hard numbers either.”
————————————————————————————-
I’ve been looking around the web, and here’s what I’ve been able to find:

• The senate version specifies a minimum 6kWh battery to qualify for a credit.
• The Plug-In Prius has less than 6kWh, so Toyota is upset.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/17/toyota-unhappy-with-current-phev-legislation/
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am

JonP #85 “People buy Accord EX for many reasons. Reliability, Resale, Size, Power, and a touch of Luxury.”

Luxury:
I have a 06 Accord. I can’t think of 1 luxurious thing it has the Volt won’t.
Power:
I’m pretty sure from 0-100mph the volt will be alot more powerful.

Resale:
It’s impossible to buy a used Prius right now, and if you can its probably close to its original value. That’s because the demand for high mileage vehicles is very high. I don’t see that changing in the near future so i would expect the Volt (or any other electric drive car) to hold its value very well.

Size:
IMO if you have a real need for a 5 passenger car your not buying an accord.

Reliability:
Well we’ll have to wait and see about that, there is less moving parts though, and most of the moving parts will be used substantially less.”

2009 Honda Accord: Base price ~$20,000
2010 Volt: Est Price ~$40,000

One thing the Volt does not come with that the Accord could is a second Accord, enough solar panels to power your home, a really nice vacation with money to spare, or anything else that costs about $20,000.

With such a large difference in price, the Volt had better provide something over the Accord other than a gas savings. Yet again someone acting like the Volt is still priced at $25,000.

Most of your positive points for choosing the Volt over the Accord are pure speculation, and to your credit you admit it.

Come on guys. Stop making these arguments that keep compelling me to ask if you really are that stupid.
THOM Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:53 am

Government “welfare” sucks!

If the car lives up to it promises, people will buy it.

Most subsidies are misused and end up in the pockets that dont need it.

Let supply and demand determine the price!
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:58 am

#90 DonC says “I wouldn’t take the DC and NY geographic areas too literally. GM is probably picking large dealers in these areas to sell and service the cars. The DC car dealers are probably in VA or MD rather than DC, and they have a history of selling into surrounding states. Ditto for NY which will probably be the NY/NJ/PA area. ”
=======================================

Yes, the important detail is that some dealers will sell them and others will not, so probably sales will be limited to a few influential dealerships. No doubt they will sell to anyone who has whatever price they are asking.

The one aspect that is different from today’s cars is that service for the Volt is going to have to come from one of the few dealerships that sells Volts. That means, for the customer, that the dealership has to be within driving distance.

So someone like me (in NC) can go to DC (300 miles) and buy one, if a car was available. Doing that would not be a good idea, however, as I could not drive back for service on a regular basis (or be towed back, if necessary).
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

#100 THOM says “Most subsidies are misused and end up in the pockets that dont need it. ”
===============================

In this case the subsidy will flow to GM, one way or another. That’s why GM lobbying is pushing so hard for it.
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

#89 Arty – “Aptera IS a motor vehicle – it is a three wheeled motorcycle. Don’t know the size of its battery but it must be at least 5kWh.”

The battery is 10kW and the EV range is over 100 miles. However the definition of motor vehicle in the bill says that “The term `motor vehicle’ means any vehicle … which has at least 4 wheels.”

No fourth wheel, no rebate. My question is: Why leave a US manufacturer out of the rebate game when it’s producing the most efficient all electric car?
Dave G Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#90 DonC Says: “There is some confusion here with some saying the production for all of 2010-2011 will be 10,000 cars, but once production starts I can’t see GM producing less than 5000 cars a month.”
————————————————————————————–
We heard straight from GM that they will only produce 10,000 Volts for the 2011 model year, the first of which will sell in Nov. 2010. They did say they expect to sell 60,000 Volts for the model 2012 year. They also said the 2012 model Volt will have numerous cost and performance improvements over the 2011 model.

The real issue will be how the unit volume ramps after 2012. I hope it ramps up very dramatically.

I’ve heard with these new technologies, every time you can increase the sales volume by a factor of 10, the manufacturing costs go down by a factor of 2. That’s the rule-of-thumb. I consider the 2011 model Volt as just testing the waters, so using the 2012 model volume as a baseline, if they can get up to selling 500,000 Volts a year, the price should come down to around $20,000.
arty Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Surprised no one here speculates that the talk of MSRP is maintained in the mid to high 30s just so GM can announce pricing 10k BELOW that at product launch. There are many business reasons for this but the major one is undersell/overdeliver. They have done that throughout the concept to build process. Why would we expect different? The viable sweet spot for this car is within $2-3k of the Prius plug-in that will get 10 miles AER.

Do-nothing Congress seems to be waking up to the idea it’s time to DO SOMETHING! Fix what should’ve been fixed in 2003 (Admin proposed oversight Agency for Mae&Mac paper makers) And pass an Energy Bill that invests in jobs, R&D and complete overhaul of aging grid.
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

#101 RB – “So someone like me (in NC) can go to DC (300 miles) and buy one, if a car was available. Doing that would not be a good idea, however, as I could not drive back for service on a regular basis (or be towed back, if necessary).”

I think the need for having dealers trained to handle the service issues are exactly why GM is at first limiting the number of dealers and therefore the geographic distribution. But GM will have to ramp up the service if for no other reason than people do move, and not always across town. I’d think by the end of 2011 GM would have at least one dealer in every state ready to go. I’d think the Research Triangle would be an area which would have a dealer fairly early in that process.

FWIW I know people who will go out of state and buy a car even if service isn’t available in their location but personally I wouldn’t want to risk the hassle if a problem or problems did arise. For the EV-1 GM used Saturn dealers. That worked very well but in those days Saturn was “different”.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

#85 JonP

As far as the Days of mid 30’s being looooong gone. Instead of listening to the WSJ, and other journalist that may have their own agendas and very little inside information. I’ll go with the CEO of the company that said not even 1 months ago.

“Wagoner was asked about price. He replied that they haven’t worked out final pricing yet but expects the initial cars to come out in the mid to upper 30s.” If you watch the Video he definitively says “it won’t be 40″. He’s not new to the game of double-talk or saying nothing, but he was definitive on the Volt won’t be in the 40’s.

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/08/18/1/part-one-of-a-look-at-gm-with-ceo-rick-wagoner

——————

Yes, I agree with you, that was the price, no argument. That is the highest number GM felt they could achieve…what the market would pay.

That interview was BEFORE this rebate went through. GM is a company on the verge of bankruptcy, there is no way they pass on this savings and put it in the consumers pocket.

Bookmark it and call me on it when GM puts the Volt out at $37,000. I’d be delighted to be wrong.
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

#104 Dave G – “We heard straight from GM that they will only produce 10,000 Volts for the 2011 model year, the first of which will sell in Nov. 2010.”

Do you have some cites for this? I’d like to take a look.

I’ve seen video of Lutz talking about this but I interpreted what he was saying was that there would be 10,000 in calendar year 2010. He was going back and forth between calendar and model years so it wasn’t altogether clear to me. I’ve seen a model year car released in April of the preceding year so for me model years are squishy concepts.

For the reasons you’ve laid out in your manufacturing cost scenario I have trouble envisioning a Chevy production line making 800 cars a month. GM was producing that many Corvettes a year in 1960. OTOH I know GM thinks it will lose money on the cars at first so that would be a reason to keep the numbers down. But 800 seems really low.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

#90 DonC

“….In any event I’d expect this limited distribution to be for the first 10,000 – 20,000 cars. After that the distribution will expand, which should be early/mid 2011. There is some confusion here with some saying the production for all of 2010-2011 will be 10,000 cars, but once production starts I can’t see GM producing less than 5000 cars a month. (Partly my thinking is that Nov/Dec is two months at 5000 for 10,000 and Jan-Dec is twelve months at 5000 for a total of 60,000).”
————

GM is on record for 2011 production to be 10K.

“They (GM) are expecting to build and sell 10,000 (Chevy Volts) in 2011 and 60,000 in 2012.” I was able to confirm and clarify this statement with Dee Allen (GM director of marketing)…Dee told me “Bob said the first 12 months of production (beginning in 2010) would be around 10k, but in second year 60k would be more like it.”

http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/19/lutz-gm-to-build-10000-volts-in-first-year-and-60000-in-second-year/

Why this number is so low when production ’starts’ in Nov 2010, is likely similar to what is happening in Oshawa on the new flex line for the Camaro. It has been ‘producing’ Camaros now for several months, but in a very limited capacity on a ‘mock line’ …there is a good 6-8 months between the ‘mock/temp/test’ line and the real thing. So we are probably seeing the real, full line engaged sometime in Q3 2011.

After the line is up and running, 60,000 is max capacity for the line in Ham, MI per year (provided they don’t do the overtime/add a shift thing).
David L Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

In Canada we are also involved in a federal election (October 14th) – however I’ve heard few specifics from the various political parties about possible rebates or incentives that will be offered to EV/EREV consumers.

The current ecoAuto program (that provides up to a $2000 rebate) is due to be phased out on Dec. 31st/08.(!) However, various provincial governments also offer additional rebates.

I’m optimistic that by 2011, there will be other rebates available in Canada.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Jerry @ 99

“2009 Honda Accord: Base price ~$20,000″

Thats not true.

If you buy an Accord EX without the V6 but with the NAV(which the Volt has for equal comparison)
it is $28,455

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/build-price/trims.asp?SERIES=5&SERIESNAME=Accord Sedan&YEAR=2009
———————————————————————————-
Luxury i guess is an opinon but can you give any points otherwise.
Resale is impossible to prove, but based on pretty solid factual data
Size is opinion 100%
Reliability is opinion until we actually have Volts on the road, but i stated a pretty decent case for its basis.
DC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Well, he could make the Volt base price 39,900 and that wouldnt be 40 either. Want some options or even the solar roof? Add a few more thousand. Add a few thousand in dealer markup (especially if its in the Northern VA area) and you’re easily in them mid 40s – before taxes, title, registration and all those charges.

In November of 2006 Northern VA dealers were asking $3500 in dealer upcharge (High Demand Car) for a full loaded (it was called the “tri-pack”) newly redesigned 2007 Infiniti G35x sedan. Now, I love the car, but its no Volt – and they were asking this over a 5-6 month period because dealerships had a limited allotment of cars to start out – as in a few per dealership with a waiting list. I should know because I shopped for one for 8 months and had to look as far away as New Jersey.

I can only imagine what the markup on a Volt will be in this area when they have far fewer cars and they know they will have far fewer cars for the next year or two. There isnt a boat full of them just around the corner and this is one of the wealthiest areas in the country.

NO NEED for a tax break for this car. NONE. I love the Volt. I want a Volt. But I’m tired of the government of my generation writing checks my kids and their kids are going to have to cover for. And now the government needs to be in the business of giving people massive tax breaks to convince them that this particular kind of car is good? Really? Look people are either going to “get” the Volt/electric cars or they arent. Giving someone a tax break isnt going to get them to buy a car they arent already interested in.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

DC @ 95

“And not only could it be more expensive – but again – dealers will also add a $5,000 “High Demand Car” surcharge onto the sticker. Happens all the time.”
——————————————————————
Totally agree that’s why “most” people one way or the other won’t see a Volt till early 2012
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Staik @ 107

“That interview was BEFORE this rebate went through. GM is a company on the verge of bankruptcy, there is no way they pass on this savings and put it in the consumers pocket.”

Still i disagree, Wagner new there would be a rebate of at least 5K, maybe 7.5K way before that interview. If they were going to steal the rebate by marking it up i think he wouldn’t of been so definitive. He’s a pretty PR savy guy, it not like were talking about Lutz here.
If they were going to absorb the rebate i would expect to be hearing phrases like “after rebates”, when talking about the price point I have never heard anybody from GM say anything about the price “after rebates”.

I agree they need the money, but the change in price point at that level could destroy their overall numbers. Not to mention if they keep production high they get the parts cheaper.

IDK about you but i’m ready for a number already!
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

#109 Statik

Thanks. That clears it up. Hopefully the rebates will change the pricing for them and they’ll ramp up sooner.
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

JonP #111: 2009 Honda Accord: Base price ~$20,000″

Thats not true.

If you buy an Accord EX without the V6 but with the NAV(which the Volt has for equal comparison)
it is $28,455

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/build-price/trims.asp?SERIES=5&SERIESNAME=Accord Sedan&YEAR=2009

It is right up front on their website:
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/

I personally wouldn’t buy the NAV. NAV is an option on cars today even luxury cars, not standard. Don’t put an albatross of chevy’s around everyone else’s neck. Further, using your logic, why not add a $10,000 AC motor system to the price of the Accord, even though you would just carry it around in the trunk.

You also choose the most expensive trim level. So who is padding the numbers? Even with all the padding, you STILL can’t get the Accord within $10,000 of the current projected Volt price.
dennis Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

~32,000 for the volt after rebates
~18,000 08 Scion Xb
Difference is about 14,000.
According to fueleconomy.gov, the annual fuel cost is $2402
At $3.84 a gallon it would take 7 years to make up the difference
At $5 a galllon Annual Fuel costs is $3476 = ~ 4 years
(Scion = ~300 mi/tank w/ 14 gal/tank and 15,000 mi/year)

Of course this negates maintenance cost, Oil changes brakes…etc
I want to drop my car and run to the volt, But I really enjoy the huge amount of cabin space I get with my Scion…even if the looks don’t appeal to everybody…but on the other hand my wife has an 01 Accord I would love to replace

ps….where’s my rear middle seat….babies are comin’?
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

FWIW here is the bill which actually passed:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:3:./temp/~c1104wUAQt:e89094:
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

JonP:

Before it even starts, I don’t mean to bicker with you regarding the appropriate cost of an Accord. The exact pricing really doesn’t matter. The point is most people buying a car priced under $30,000 will not be in the market buying a car priced at $40,000.

I don’t know where you are on the income scale, but I have gone from working-stiff, to an older student, to an over-educated semiretired millionaire.

Having gone through that transition, I am telling you that there are breaks put on credit at certain levels and you do not break through those levels unless you have substantially more income that the level immediately below. You see the same thing when buying real estate.

I don’t know if this is by design, but it is my empirical observation.

My point is that if you are in the group that can only afford a car under $30,000, you are going to need either a big boost in income or ready cash if you want to move up to cars in the $40,000 to $50,000 range. You are not likely to find creative (expensive) financing to get around this. Exuberance will not get you a Volt

The current financial crisis will only exacerbate the situation.
Statik Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

#114 JonP

IDK about you but i’m ready for a number already!
————
Indeed, something we can both agree on.
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Assuming the bill containing the tax rebate passes, there are some things to consider before you start subtracting from the cost of the Volt, or any other qualifying hybrid. You have to be able to take advantage of the rebate, even if it exists and there are hurdles to that:

1. A future tax rebate will not help you get financing for the car in the first place. It does not move the Volt closer to a price the masses buying cars under $30K can afford because a tax rebate is not considered in the financing process.

Chevy would be crazy to raise the price of the Volt further then try to use the tax rebate as a sales pitch because it would simply push the car further into the luxury market where it can’t compete.

2. On a $40,000 car, how the rebate is applied by the IRS is critical. If it is above the line, it is of limited use or totally useless for many in the luxury end because they pay AMT.

I’m sure more informed people could add to this list.

So in raising the price of the volt to $40,000 or more, Chevy has put the Volt in a very bad bracket with regard to rebates. People who could get the rebate can’t afford the car, and those who can afford the car may not be able to take advantage of the rebate because of the tax code.

Talk about a Red Herring.
Tom H Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

statik says “What does this mean to you, Volt consumer? It means if you are in the NY, CA, FL or DC areas you will be getting the full rebate…if you don’t, you aren’t going to get anything.”
=============================

Yes, the situation is normal. Those poor people in NY,CA,FL and DC are getting subsidies from the much richer people in AL, MS, ND, CO etc.
———————————————————————————–
There is a critical public policy need to get the American people off imported oil. If we were not sending almost $1 trillion per year overseas to pay our oil bill, the economy would be in better shape, and might even have been able to weather the housing slump without bailouts. If you believe in MMGW, that doubles the need.

But right now, the economics still favor oil. It is cheaper to buy a $14.4k Cobalt, and use lots of $4 gas, then it is to buy an unrebated Volt. So some government action is best for everybody in the long run.

But Statik’s point is one reason why rebates are not the best way to do it. Another problems with rebates is that the government is picking winners and losers. This bill also has huge tax breaks, for the 40th consecutive year for solar. Engineers have graduated, worked entire careers on govt funded solar programs, and are now retired, all without producing a viable product.

IMO, the right way to get the transportation off of foreign oil is tighter CAFE standards. By 2015, 60 mpg vendor fleet average. This would drive automakers to structure thier product offerings, and their pricing, in such a way that we will see a wide variety of small gas cars, clean diesels, hybrids of all types, and BEVs.

Then by 2020, if technology and economics make this reasonable, 80 mpg fleet average, which means the majority of vehicles are either PHEVs or BEVs.

At that point, we can probably live on domestic oil for a generation or so, then start dipping into our natural gas reserves.
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#99 Jerry

To me the right Honda car for comparison to the Volt is the Honda Civic, not Honda Accord. That’s because the sizes are virtually identical.

Compare Honda Civic /Volt
Length 177.3 / 177
Width 69 /70.8
Height 56.3 / 56.3

The appearance also is very similar.
FWIW, I think both are nice looking.

RB
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

RB #123:

I don’t disagree. The Accord was used in an earlier post to which I referred, which is why it was referenced.

You make a good point though. It widens the gap another $5000.
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

#106 DonC says “I’d think by the end of 2011 GM would have at least one dealer in every state ready to go. I’d think the Research Triangle would be an area which would have a dealer fairly early in that process.”
=====================================

I’d like to think so, but I doubt there will be any Volts sold in NC in 2011, 2012 or even 2013. If there are, it will more likely be in Charlotte, which has the largest metro area and the most well heeled customers (e.g. Bank of America headquartered there).
RB Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

#124 Jerry –> I understand; very sensible.
kdawg Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

@122 Tom

I hate CAFE standards. Let people build/buy whatever cars they want. The market will determine where we go. If you want people to use less oil, tax the hell out of it. I was actually glad when gas prices went up over $4/gallon. It finally forced some change in the US consumer. We did respond, and used 5% less oil than previously. A 5% reduction from a consumer that consumes 25% of a product has a significant affect too. Oil prices dropped, and the bubble burst.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Jery @ 117

———————————————————
“Sedan&YEAR=2009″

I don’t understand your point?

———————————————————
“I personally wouldn’t buy the NAV. NAV is an option on cars today even luxury cars, not standard.”

It’s in the Volt standard, so i figured for equal comparison. Take the Nav out if you want its $2K less, over 60 months thats what?
—————————————————————————-
” Further, using your logic, why not add a $10,000 AC motor system to the price of the Accord, even though you would just carry it around in the trunk.”

Dude that makes no sense, if you could get the Accord with a EFlex drivetrain than i would be comparing those. But you can’t so i’m trying to get them as close as possible on the options.
———————————————————————————–
“You also choose the most expensive trim level. So who is padding the numbers? Even with all the padding, you STILL can’t get the Accord within $10,000 of the current projected Volt price”

Jerry, with the EX you get a indash cd-changer, and a sunroof. I’m not padding anything i’m trying to bring the options on the honda up to the standard options on the Volt and compare them. Why would i compare a stripped down accord to a Volt in price. The stripped accord is nothing but a roomier civic ( i have one!), and barely half the car the Volt will be. Your questioning my logic, how many of the exact accords i described do you think they sold last year? 100K, i’d say that’s a comparison worth making.
————————————————————————————–
“Even with all the padding, you STILL can’t get the Accord within $10,000 of the current projected Volt price”

Jerry when i buy a car, or anything that cost 30K plus for that matter. I like to be informed of the total cost of ownership. So therefore I’ll be looking at the:
Sale Price + Tax Credits+ Fuel Cost + Maintenance Cost = TCO

We both know you will spend hundreds more a month in fuel, thousands more in maintenance cost over 5 years, and get no $7500 tax credit on an Accord or a Prius. So don’t accuse me of padding the numbers when your totaly ignoring at least 10K savings in TCO.

——————————————————————————–
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Jerry,

My finances will allow me to buy whatever car i want (within reason). I choose to drive economical cars because their just machines to me. But the Volt is different I put a price on the “other reasons” to buy one.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

To All:

I’m 35 minutes outside of Manhattan in NJ.

My brother is the GM of the local Chevy Dealership

Hopefully this will be a resource for all of us to get Volts as early as possible. At the least we will have dealer level info on initial quantity, invoice price, first delivery dates, manufacturer hold-back, etc….

Plus I’ll be able to avoid the whole “dealer markup” thing, can’t guarantee that for the rest of you.
DonC Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

#125 RB – “I doubt there will be any Volts sold in NC in 2011, 2012 or even 2013.”

Boy I’d be shocked if Volts didn’t show up in NC by 2012. That would be horrible.

The demographics tell me RTP is a better market for the Volt than Charlotte. Research Triangle has the tech folk while Charlotte has the more established businesses, like banking as you’ve mentioned. The Volt is a car for the nerds, not the bankers.
JonP. Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Boy I’d be shocked if Volts didn’t show up in NC by 2012
———————————————————–

Me too.

In any state for that matter. Might have to drive to your states big city, but by 2012 they’ll be there.
jefro Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

I’ll take the money if I can. Might as well get it before there is none left.

Guess we could buy a Ford or Chrysler.
Grizzly Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

This doesn’t make sense. The article above says that it’s already been passed in the senate. Bills go from the house to the senate not the other way around, and the original article says that it has yet to pass in either.
AlanM Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Do the people that can afford a 40,00.00 car really need a tax break? The rich get all the breaks. Maybe if you can’t afford the car you should get the tax break.
firehawk72 Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

“This doesn’t make sense. The article above says that it’s already been passed in the senate. Bills go from the house to the senate not the other way around, and the original article says that it has yet to pass in either.”

Simply not true. A bill can be introduced in either and then sent to the other (not counting committees). It must pass both before going to the President, but either way, a bill can start from the House or the Sentate.

Hawk
Grant Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

It may not sound great to most, but this tax credit has a double effect…it lowers the cost initially, AND it stays in effect for 250,000 units, far more then the first year or two of manufacture. As such, the cheaper second and possibly third generation will ALSO qualify, and we will still get the same benefit as the wealthier early adopters.

Also, GM can not afford to loose out by jacking the price away from the tax break. They are on life-support as-is, tugging the plug is a stupid idea. They will want to get as many Volts and related technologies on the road fast, and the best way is to find a way to use the tax credit as a down payment or the like. They are not fools (anymore, anyway…).
Grizzly Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

firehawk #136

Appropriations bills must start in the house.
Grizzly Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

PaulR #22

“The Japanese government certainly won’t be offering tax credits on the Volt in Japan.”

*** *** ***

There will hardly be any US cars sold in Japan and that’s not by accident. Sure isn’t a level playing ground is it?
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

JonP #128, #129:

Whatever. As someone else pointed out, your comparison of an Accord to the Volt is an apples to oranges comparison anyway. The volt is closer to an electric Civic.

The Volt needs NAV to implement the eflex system, and is therefore better considered part of that system. There are simpler cheaper ways of doing it, and other cars do not need NAV to operate. Therefore NAV remains an option.

As to trim options, ditto previous comment. Why does Chevy put so many routinely optional extras as standard on the Volt? We all know that optional extras are jacked up on price by every car maker. Chevy puts them on the Volt in an attempt to justify the cost of the car.

As to your $10,000 savings on TCO, that is total speculation.

As to your “other reasons” for buying a Volt, does that mean you are currently green, driving a Prius and have solar panels on your home, or that your brother is a Chevy dealer?

My bet would be you drive a big ass SUV purchased from your brother at a discount.

BTW, It was good of you to disclose that your brother is a Chevy dealer.
Koz Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Said it before when the house passed this bill: overall it is a pretty good incentive bill save one major mistake. Statik hit on it when he asked if it was 250K per manufacturer or for all manufacturers. Why are plug-ins provided from one manufacturer potentially years after others have been selling them valued the same has early providers. The idea should be to get as many plug-ins as possible on the road as quickly as possible. The best way to do this would be to have all manufacturers competing for a fixed number of credits. The early providers and early adopters should be rewarded.

The individual solely concerned about the dollar of his purchases could wait for the laggard manufacturers to jump in after the EV costs have dropped and also get the full tax credits.
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

AlanM #135:

A tax rebate only offsets taxes you owe. You still have to finance the entire cost of the car and the tax rebate is not considered in that calculation.

A tax rebate is not a discount off the price of the car at the dealership.
jerry Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Grant #137:

Don’t know about the current bill, but the last one was limited to the first X number of cars and was phased out after a certain date.

The rebate is unlikely to be indefinite.

Does anyone have the language in the current bill?
Grizzly Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

Jerry #142

“A tax rebate only offsets taxes you owe. You still have to finance the entire cost of the car and the tax rebate is not considered in that calculation.”

*** *** ***

That’s a very good point, but I guess it’s better than nothing at all. I’ve long said that 2nd or 3rd generation will be the E-flex to have. Hopefully you’ll get a rebate, and hopefully you’ll get one before they’re electronically over controlled.
firehawk72 Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Grizz #138

Beating a dead horse here. Make sure you read all of it. We are both right-technically

According to the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 7, clause 1), all bills relating to revenue, generally tax bills, must originate in the House of Representatives, consistent with the Westminster system requiring all money bills to originate in the lower house. The Constitution also states that the “Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills,” so in practice the Senate and House traditionally proceed separately, with each body drafting and considering their own bills separately. The Senate generally will amend its version of a particular appropriations bill to the House-passed version in order to send the bill to a conference committee prior to the bill becoming law. This is why the majority of appropriations bills that are enacted contain the H.R. modifier used to identify House introduced legislation.

Hawk
KentT Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

Are there no tax accountants in this blogsphere?????????

PEOPLE! NO! NO! NO! You will not get $7500 from the government if you buy a Volt!!!!!!!

A $7500 tax CREDIT is a reduction of one’s taxable INCOME.

For example, if you made $50,000 applying the Volt tax credit you would reduce your taxable income, i.e. you now owe taxes on $42,500 (plus any other tax deductions) even though your W2 says you earned $50,000.

SO, if $50K – $35K is in the 20% tax bracket (I’m just pulling figures out of the air for example sake, fyi) then with no deductions you would owe $10,000 in federal income tax. If you bought a Volt you could deduct $7500 and your taxable incomes becomes $42,500 and you would owe $8500 in federal income tax. THEREFORE, you save $1500 NOT $7500 by buying a Volt. Clear?

YOUR savings will vary!
koz Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

KentT #146

I am pretty sure you are mistaking a tax deduction for a tax credit. Deduction lowers your taxable income. Credit is a one for one deduction in your tax bill. Easy enough to google this if it doesn’t make sense to you.
stas peterson Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

For all that still maintain their undying love for the Accord or Camry, just buy one of your pet vehicles. Stop with your belly-aching about the Volt, that you have no intention to ever purchase,. It doesn’t have the “cachet” of your so-sophisticated foreign car lifestyle.
Michael Says:
September 25th, 2008 at 1:01 am

#143 Jerry – I think S3478 is it. These numbers match the article. (HR 6899 does not.)

Senate 3478
SEC. 30D. NEW QUALIFIED PLUG -IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES .

`(a) Allowance of Credit-

`(1) IN GENERAL- There shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this chapter for the taxable year an amount equal to the applicable amount with respect to each new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year.

`(2) APPLICABLE AMOUNT- For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable amount is sum of–

`(A) $2,500, plus

`(B) $400 for each kilowatt hour of traction battery capacity in excess of 6 kilowatt hours.

`(b) Limitations-

`(1) LIMITATION BASED ON WEIGHT- The amount of the credit allowed under subsection (a) by reason of subsection (a)(2) shall not exceed–

`(A) $7,500, in the case of any new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds,

`(B) $10,000, in the case of any new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds but not more than 14,000 pounds,

`(C) $12,500, in the case of any new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 14,000 pounds but not more than 26,000 pounds, and

`(D) $15,000, in the case of any new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 26,000 pounds.

`(2) LIMITATION ON NUMBER OF PASSENGER VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS ELIGIBLE FOR CREDIT-

`(A) IN GENERAL- In the case of a new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle sold during the phaseout period, only the applicable percentage of the credit otherwise allowable under subsection (a) shall be allowed.

`(B) PHASEOUT PERIOD- For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes the first date on which the total number of such new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicles sold for use in the United States after December 31, 2007, is at least 250,000.

`(C) APPLICABLE PERCENTAGE- For purposes of subparagraph (A), the applicable percentage is–

`(i) 50 percent for the first 2 calendar quarters of the phaseout period,

`(ii) 25 percent for the 3d and 4th calendar quarters of the phaseout period, and

`(iii) 0 percent for each calendar quarter thereafter.

`(D) CONTROLLED GROUPS- Rules similar to the rules of section 30B(f)(4) shall apply for purposes of this subsection.

`(c) New Qualified Plug -In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle- For purposes of this section, the term `new qualified plug -in electric drive motor vehicle’ means a motor vehicle–

`(1) which draws propulsion primarily using a traction battery with at least 6 kilowatt hours of capacity,

`(2) which uses an offboard source of energy to recharge such battery,

`(3) which, in the case of a passenger vehicle or light truck which has a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 8,500 pounds, has received a certificate of conformity under the Clean Air Act and meets or exceeds the equivalent qualifying California low emission vehicle standard under section 243(e)(2) of the Clean Air Act for that make and model year . . .
JonP. Says:
September 25th, 2008 at 8:39 am

Jerry,

“BTW, It was good of you to disclose that your brother is a Chevy dealer.”

& My dad is the used car manager at a VW store. Your point?

————————————————————————————

As i’ve already stated i drive an 06 accord
———————————————————————————-

“Whatever. As someone else pointed out, your comparison of an Accord to the Volt is an apples to oranges comparison anyway. The volt is closer to an electric Civic.”

Why because their similar in size?

A Porsche is similar in size to a kia rio, so is an audi a4 to a civic.
Obviously those are extremes, but my point is size is not that important.

My original reason for using the accord is because that’s what i drive. In my mind for an extra $75 a month and a few inches of legroom. I can drive a car that runs on little to no gas, has 10 times the interior features/technology, will cost a 1/4 to maintain, and run twice as long.
Jim I Says:
September 25th, 2008 at 5:05 pm

We are already 10.6 TRILLION DOLLARS in debt, with another TRILLION being tossed to Wall Street to “help” them get over their greed and bad decisions…….

So what is a few more Billion $ in tax rebates? Just ask your great great grand kids what they think about it………….
statik Says:
September 25th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

#151 Jim I

We are already 10.6 TRILLION DOLLARS in debt, with another TRILLION being tossed to Wall Street to “help” them get over their greed and bad decisions…….

So what is a few more Billion $ in tax rebates? Just ask your great great grand kids what they think about it………….

———————–

You might me happy to know that the 700 billion dollar bailout and fallen apart then…they are working late tonight to try and get it done, the market is going to freak tomorrow, lol.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080925/financial_meltdown.html
William Hughes-Games Says:
September 26th, 2008 at 11:12 am

As a thought exercise, I wonder what the range would be of the Chevy Amp (brother of Volt), what the price would be and what size the market would be if they:
*replaced the engine with as many batteries as would fit in the compartment.
*used the new lithium titanate batteries instead of lithium ion
*removed all features which are not necessary to make the car roadworthy.

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One Step Towards a Cheaper Volt: Senate Passes Plug-in Tax Credit

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