Chrysler Goes Electric
As you might have heard by now, Chrysler made an announcement today that they have three electric vehicles in running prototype form. These include the Dodge EV sportscar, the Jeep EV range-extended electric vehicle, and the Chrysler EV range-extended minivan.
Chrysler indicates that these vehicles are “production-intent” and that one of them will be produced for the North American market in 2010.
Two years ago Chrysler formed an internal organization for the development of electric vehicles called ENVI.
The Dodge EV sports car has a 200 kw motor producing a 0 to 60 of less than 5 seconds, and a 150-200 mile range, making it competitive with the Tesla roadster. The Jeep EV has a 200 kw motor, electric range of 40 miles and overall range of 400 miles. The Chrysler EV has a 190 kw motor, 40 mile EV range, and 400 mile total range.
Chrysler says it will be working with GE, who is a major investor in A123, on battery development.
It is unknown which of the 3 vehicles will be produced, and there is no word on price, except to say “competitive.”
In an obvious stab at GM Chrysler co-president Jim Press said “We are well ahead of where people think we are. Perhaps that’s because we haven’t tooted our horn up till now.”
Source (Chrylser) and (Bloomberg)
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- Chrysler to Unveil New Extended-Range Electric Car Next Tuesday
- GM Welcomes Chrysler to Join Them in the Electric Car Future
- Chrysler In Discussions With A123 to Supply Batteries For New Electric Car
- More Details About Chrylser’s Electric Car Plans
- Under What Conditions is the Chevy Volt’s Quoted 40 Mile Electric Range Modelled?
(7 votes, average: 4.86 out of 5) 
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
(My last comment on the Chrysler/A123 posting, seems to work better here):
Consider, please, that in their haste to get a “me too” system out the door, Chrysler could end up giving the EREV a black eye, regardless of manufacturer.
Back in the ’70s, the VW Rabbit was “THE” thing, and Chrysler set out to copy it: the result was the disasterous Plymouth Horizon / Dodge Omni. Six safety-related recalls the first two years, mixed metric and english fasteners on the same vehicle, back doors that closed never to reopen were among the low-lights.
These were almost the first American cars with the now-standard transverse engine, FWD design. This did reflect the future of automobiles, but I know a lot of folks who had a hard time giving that design a second chance, years later (and only when offered by other manufacturers, with few “north-south” layout / RWD options left).
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Excellent news! The more the merrier!
First one to produce a 4+ seater that I can service locally, gets my business. I have no loyalties to any automaker for this project. I will not sit by and wait on promises if there is any other options available to me.
I imagine there are quite a few like me…just give me something to buy!
/game on
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
The sports car looks cool, but without range extension of the EV mode, it is a deal breaker for me. 150-200 miles just won’t work for anything other than a commuter or a “play” car.
I wonder if it will be priced like a Tesla as well????
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Jackson,
Certainly, the EV conversions of the Chrysler mini-van and Jeep wrangler ring true to your concerns of an ad-hoc approach, but the Lotus based development of the Dodge EV seems far more plausible, as GE and Lotus are doing most of the work.
Were I a betting man, I would bet that the Dodge EV will be the first vehicle that Chrysler puts out the door.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Besides perhaps the Dodge sports car, Chrysler does not seem to be as concerned with aerodynamics as GM is with the Volt. Yet, they still claim they will be able to acheive 40 miles all electric.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Lyle,
You left out the most interesting aspect of the Jeep Wrangler - wheel motors. I suspect they are from Raser.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I owned a pure EV Fiat for many years, and I can tell you that
without a range extender my wife will NEVER drive it. Ever.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
please somebody get an ev on the market, I don’t care who–NO PLUG NO SALE
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I don’t see how that sports car would be competing with the Volt. It would likely have a $60,000 to $80,000 price tag, which would make it competitive with the Tesla, but it wouldn’t get anything near the volume of the Volt. And I don’t see how they plan on getting a 40-mile all-electric range with the other two vehicles in the picture, considering how much work GM had to go through in order to make sure the body and frame of the Volt were light enough and aerodynamic enough for a 40-mile range.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I agree Ben. They claim 40 miles and have no aerodynamics involved. I wouldn’t be surprised if those numbers got revised. I do think that the Dodge EV will be the first one out the door, but I think it because the Viper is being sold soon and that would be it’s replacement.
Jackson, I doubt you’d have much to worry about with Chrysler getting into the extended range electric vehicle game. Chrysler worked with GM on the cylinder deactivation V8 technology, the hybrid SUV technology, the new phoenix V6, and they’re probably working with GM on extended range electric vehicle technology. If you worry about chrysler, then you should also worry about GM
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
To achieve 40mi. AER in a brick-shaped Jeep or minivan, simply enlarge the battery. ‘Course, they didn’t say anything about price, weight, etc… now did they?
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
The sports car looks cool, but without range extension of the EV mode, it is a deal breaker for me. 150-200 miles just won’t work for anything other than a commuter or a “play” car.
I wonder if it will be priced like a Tesla as well????
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Maybe not. Maybe there is such a thing as a free lunch.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I wonder how heavy the battery is on the Dodge EV on the spec sheet it says its a 26kWh battery, that’s bigger than the one on the Volt. To get the bigger range are they must be using a much bigger range of the batteries capacity which will mean more wear on the battery. Sounds like it will be as expensive as a Tesla.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Very interesting indeed. Too bad American minivans are ugly as sin and Jeeps are outclassed in every category except off-road ability. Just my views of course. I am still very glad to hear of this development, these vehicles could serve people well…perhaps even me someday. Jeep ruggedness combined with low emissions? Yes please!
To echo what was said above: Perhaps they can fit bigger batteries in these larger vehicles, which gets them their 40 miles all-electric range. They probably already have a leg up on the Volt in one way: number of seats.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. The first big auto manufacturer out with a plug-in vehicle, will garner the bulk of the market dollars. NPNS
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
So has gm sign a contract with A123 systems?
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I am not sure they should be tooting their horn even now. I am not sure how they expect to get 40 miles on battery with current vehicle designs. If they can, then why did GM do such a re-design on the Chevy Volt? If a Jeep Liberty can go 40 miles on battery, why couldn’t the Volt concept do the same? Not that I think the concept didn’t need some changes. Just wondering out loud.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
This is interesting. I can give arguments why all three vehicles would be appealing.
1. Dodge EV - A Tesla roadster with better battery technology. Will replace the Dodge Viper as the premium Dodge sports car.
2. Chrysler EV - Environmental vehicle for the soccer mom who will not compromise on room for the kiddies in the back. Great for making a statement.
3. Jeep EV - A potentially great idea for 4-wheeling. Instant torque on demand. Shifting gears will be eliminated.
I’ll just sit back and wait to see which one they pick to mass-produce first…
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I am now at the point in my life that I will need a mini -Van (arggghh)
I think the 1st company to make a world class Hybrid plug-in mini van will win a very large portion on the market
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
#2 Statik
“I imagine there are quite a few like me…just give me something to buy!”
I am in agreement. No brand loyalty at this point.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Statik and Mike Casey I second your comments. GM, Chrysler, Ford, VW, or even Toyota I don’t care who gets it to me first (although I’m rooting for the home team I’ll certainly support the others) I’ll get nothing but used clunkers until I get my plug with approx 40 mile ALL ELECTRIC RANGE.
I’d like to replace my VW bus with something so I’d love to see the town and country come out EREV style.
I love the idea of 4 independent wheel motors driving the car. For 4WD needs all 4 could be powered and for cruise control maybe just 2.
All I can say is be careful rushing it because American cars are finally being accepted as more reliable now and I’d hate to see EREV’s get a bad rep because companies rushed to market.
IMHO I kinda figure this is a well planned attempt to get a bigger slice of the 25 bil retooling $$$. Expect to See Ford announce something within the month.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
This is GREAT news for those of you wanting a VOLT. It will motivate GM to keep on schedule. It will also motivate them to ramp up the 2nd year production rate.
I want HIGH GAS prices for long enough that people realize an electric motor is far better then a gas engine. It’s quieter, smoother and has longer duty cycle with lower maintenance. Even though the Volt has the ICE as an extender, hopefully it will see dramatically less usage then a current cars ICE. As battery life extends the electric only distance, my hope is that people will not want a traditional car even with $2.00 / gallon gas. I’m fully aware of the battery issue, but as an engineer we have to power through the development if we want make a real change.
Plug-In Hybrids need to “Shock and Awe” the market/consumer such that we don’t want a traditional car. I don’t want a transmission, oil changes, starter, alternator, exhaust, etc. I know the volt has some of that, but it’s smaller, used less and over time may become used so little that it’s good for extremely long life. The batteries are still an issue, but you get my point.
It will be a tug of war between using less gas as a nation so the demand falls, then the price drops and the motivation to buy a Volt goes down. So the more the merrier I want the car to succeed to a point that it profoundly changes the consumer’s misguided believe that ICE are better then an electric motor. Your gas tank is better then a battery pack, but maybe that can change with time.
Go Volt and GO Chrysler.
It’s not about Chevy, Chrysler or Ford it’s about Americans making cars that run on power/energy made in America.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I think the sport car is a Lotus Europa with a Dodge badge. Interesting that they would resort to ripping off Tesla’s Idea to the point of using a Lotus body!!! Here is a pic of the lotus
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sweetauto.net/gallery/files/1/2007-Lotus-Europa-FA-1024×768.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sweetauto.net/gallery/showimage.php%3Fi%3D5560%26c%3D567&h=768&w=1024&sz=134&tbnid=hGvoq24c-L0J::&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlotus%2Beuropa&usg=__Lj9eY4pSWVDx5-smGsQpAUGwyc4=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&cd=1
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Interesting that none of these body models compete directly with the Volt.
I currently have a minivan, and would be prepared to suffer the smaller body in a compact car (Volt) for the drive train. A serious offering by Chrysler would give more choice without even competing with the Volt (as I guess most will want to choose by body type before drive train).
I wonder if they deliberately avoided a Volt like body type?
If they haven’t even chosen a body type, and “will be working” rather than “have been working for 12 months” with a partner on this, then they are someways behind. Also they don’t have a current EV like the GM fuel cell powered Equinox (or do they) that have can call upon experience with.
Show a production intent body and a drive train mule and I’ll consider that Chrysler are a significant way down the path.
I guess that they could buy a drive train like from the private future is it ATV or ATX or similar who use battery and ultra caps in their converted SUV.
Being behind the curve may force them to partner more and avoid the “not invented here” trap. So they could even end up with a better product.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:00 pm
What’s the cost of the these’s car’s? AS I said before These E Flex Drive System can and will be on different platforums that can seat 5,6,7 people.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
2010 should be an interesting year… and for those who just want something to buy, I am in that category as well…
GM should start taking deposits and get serious about fast-tracking their Volt program. I believe Chrysler has just caught up. Let’s see, they’ve chosen to do conversions which means the body is finalized. The Volt’s producton body just debuted. Chrysler appears to have chosen A123 for their batteries, as GM has just chosen their supplier. 2009 will see fleet testing… Wow, Chrysler IS a competitor.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Wow… If you think electric and E-REV vehicles are the future, then the last seven days have been pretty exciting… and Chrysler’s triple threat has just stolen the show(http://www.motortrend.com/index.html).
With Chrysler’s announcement, they may have leapfrogged over GM and Tesla. Why should we take Chrysler seriously?
1)The Dodge EV, like the Tesla roadster, is clearly derived from Lotus, and is similar to the Tesla in range, acceleration and top speed. The difference? I think that Chrysler will be able to offer it at a price that is 25-50% than the $106,000 Tesla roadster, becuase Tesla’s price is inflated to help finance expansion and development of what is still a fledgling company.
2) We know from CNBC’s Phil LeBeau that at least two of the prototypes (The Dodge and Jeep EVs) are fully functional (read http://www.cnbc.com/id/26850309). This means that Chrysler has been working on these cars for a long time, and just kept them under wraps.
3) Chrysler claims that the Town and Country EV can go from 0-60 in 9 seconds. If so, this would make it as quick as the Chevy Volt, a car which weighs far less.
To the GM faithful, Chrysler’s announcement appears to be a copycat attempt that was quickly cobbled together, but all that they’ve really done is held onto their cards, keeping their three of a kind a secret until the other players reveal their hands. Who knows how many other automakers are doing the same?
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
squat (#10):
In my little story at #1, the reasons the Omni / Horizon were flops had nothing directly to do with the transverse-engine FWD design, but everything to do with basic philosophy, attention to detail and quality of construction.
If you spew out beverage company A’s “new ‘X’ flavor” soda because it’s nasty, you may balk before trying company B’s “X flavor,” even if the actual “X” ingredients were less important than company A’s execution.
. . . does this mean that I now know “squat?”
Another way Chrysler could be taking a different philosophical approach:
GM tried to make a car with a similar duty-cycle as a traditional ICE-only car, not only by pushing the state-of-the-art for Lithium Ion batteries, but by severely limiting how the pack can be used (16kwh capacity, but only half of that available). This is thought to make for a 10-year, 100,000 - 150,000 mile lifetime. Only time will tell definitely if this will work; or even, if electric car buyers will think it’s worth the cost.
Chrysler may have no such objective. Perhaps they see the battery as a dealer-replacement option at 3 - 4 year intervals. That sounds rough on the poor car owner, but what if they roll a replacement battery’s cost into the initial selling price, as GM has reportedly done just to hedge it’s bets?
If you’re not trying to make a battery last 10 years, there’s much less incentive to restrict it’s use. Using 100% of an 8kwh battery could achieve the same result as the Volt’s 16kwh pack (in terms of 40-mile AER) at half the cost and weight. One replacement is still likely to be 6 - 8 years, and answers the critic who asks “who keeps a car for 10 years?” (actually, a lot of people, but many more trade within 5 years). In any case, is a buyer likely to think that far ahead with the sticker in front of him in a showroom full of balloons and eager salesmen?
Another potential advantage for Chrysler is that the improving state-of-the-art in Lithium Ion will potentially lengthen the lifetime of the 100% use 8kwh battery down the road, so that it might only take 3 battery swaps to get to 120,000 miles instead of 4 (and they could be cheaper).
Disadvantage: don’t look for a lot of resale value, if the new buyer has to go straight out and replace the battery.
It would be interesting to see how such a difference in philosophies plays out in the market (and if Chrysler does intend to follow GM’s lead with a 10-year battery, who’s to say someone else wouldn’t go for a shorter-life battery?)
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Gm has already stated that there will be fleet Chevrolet Volt’s way before chrysler has, chrysler has not leapfrog GM . I think Gm has already chosen 123 systems.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
It has been mentioned that Tesla was GM’s catalyst for creating the Volt on several occasions… Interesting that Chrysler has leapfrogged the costly middleman of “engineering” by going with an off the shelf lotus and cramming GM’s idea in it.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a great idea. Instead of a 4-seat sedan which will undoubtedly be compared to the Prius, they’ve played to their strengths by modifying their signature cars… and likely billing the EV as a baby-viper. Of course if it fails, they’re screwed.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:22 pm
______________________________________________________
Run Chrysler Run…yes that is the GM VOLT Team way ahead of you…with big grins on their faces and tooting their horns…getting ready to lap you!
toot…toot…hahaha
______________________________________________________
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I’m just going to echo others in saying to get 40mpc, you just need a bigger charge! That minivan and jeep have plenty of space to pack in more cells.
Sign me up for the sports car
I’d love it to have a extended range factor, but I know performance would be hindered once you hit the 150~200mpc range (and were running on the generator).
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
If dodge released their MiniVan in EREV I would drop the Volt in a second.
I drive a 34mpg civic so it doesn’t really make sence for me to trade in in for a Volt until it’s dead. Now our Family car is very big and nice but it’s a gas hog. 18mpg if i’m lucky. I would jump at the chance to trade that in for an EREV Minivan
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Regarding Chrysler going electric…It’s about dog-gone time!
Competition is good. The more REEV’s and EV’s out there, hopefully the sooner we will see more affordability through economies of scale. Interesting developement.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Lots are questioning why the Volt will only get 40 miles on a full charge while the Jeep will get as much and is not aerodynamic like the Volt. Could it be GM is doing what Toyota has done……promise less and give more? Maybe the Volt will do better than the 40 miles promised.
Also, I believe Chrysler and GM are working together on some projects and sometime later, will surprise us. After all, GM can not be telling everyone everything they have up their sleeve.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Chrysler has no choice but to head this way. This will help them get a government bailout or help them sell themselves to Tesla. Its really going to be hard for a company with the worst fuel cafe standards of any major automaker to survive in this current economic climate. I welcome the move and if affordable (highly unlikely) I’d love the sports car. All I got to say is Good Luck Chrysler.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
The Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep vehicles shown seem pretty weak.
The Dodge is just like another Tesla… it doesn’t even look like a dodge. The Chrysler and Jeep vehicles look like any of their traditional gas-powered vehicles and will not help Chrysler’s/Jeep’s image out on the road as being environmentally friendly and increasing sales (e.g. Regular/Hybrid Civic vs. the “Unique”-looking Prius).
P.S. A boxy non-aerodynamic Jeep with 40-mile range will need a BIG battery!
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
OK Statik, I feel like you
/game on for me too
LGAEREVOTW ASAP !! NPNS
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
#35 Joe:
“Also, I believe Chrysler and GM are working together on some projects and sometime later, will surprise us. After all, GM can not be telling everyone everything they have up their sleeve.”
___________________________________________________________________
You have a good point. Is it just a coincidence that none of Chrysler’s EV prototypes is a four-door car like the Volt?
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
As I stated before that these E Flex Drive System will be on other Gm models, that will hold more than just four people.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:45 pm
#37 Gary:
“The Chrysler and Jeep vehicles look like any of their traditional gas-powered vehicles and will not help Chrysler’s/Jeep’s image out on the road as being environmentally friendly and increasing sales (e.g. Regular/Hybrid Civic vs. the “Unique”-looking Prius).”
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True, but the Chrysler and Jeep EVs could be “mules” in the same way that GM is using the Malibu as a mule for the Volt powertrain. By 2010, the prototypes’ body styles will be outdated, so you would have to think there will be some exterior redesigning done in the next 2 years.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I’ll just echo the “exciting times” theme!
Be well,
Tag
PS My hard drive is wheezing, so I may be off line for a while.
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
…sounds like a case of Prius ENVI.
In-wheel motors are being investigated as ENVI moves forward, the Jeep prototype has a single motor. I have no doubt that the in-wheel motor will ultimately prevail, but in the near term, I’d be concerned by issues of heat and especially vibration (in an off-road vehicle this would be even worse). I think there could be a lot of research and tweaking ahead before “in-wheels” take off, IMO.
No where in the Chrysler article is service life even mentioned (see my #28).
GE is working on a “dual battery” system which combines a “power” battery (for bursts of energy) with an “energy” battery (for storage at lower power). This suggests to me that if A123 is involved, it is in production of a different flavor of battery (batteries?) than the Volt’s.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:07 pm
These announcements just emphasize the point that GM needs to develop other EREV options on the Volt chassis. Each of these vehicles from Chrysler are aimed at a specific niche. GM better have a comprehensive plan to push E-Flex throughout a set of cars/trucks/vans or they will be ripe to be outdone. We don’t even really know yet what Toyota is going to put out. Or Nissan… Mazda ….. Ford…..
All the time GM spent tuning the Volt’s aero may have been better served working on other vehicles. As the comments here show, when you get right down to it, the 40 MPC IS NOT A DEAL BREAKER TO MOST PEOPLE!! Its the electric drive, period.
All that said, we know nothing about the technolgy in these Chrysler cars. Or charging times, or battery drain, or warrantees or features or price or……..
Gm needs to keep pushing E-Flex thru their other cars. Keep the MPC promises out of the equation.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“If you’re not trying to make a battery last 10 years, there’s much less incentive to restrict it’s use. Using 100% of an 8kwh battery could achieve the same result as the Volt’s 16kwh pack (in terms of 40-mile AER) at half the cost and weight.”
Nice point, Jackson. In addition, battery prices can only be cheaper, and perhaps much cheaper, after 4 or 5 years.
StephenB
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Jackson #1:
The article says they have been working on this for two years. Doesn’t sound like it was too much of a last minute idea.
Chrysler are going to need twice as many cells in series compared to the Volt to push that 200kw motor. Lets see how Chrysler does on price.
Like the specs on the sports car, but why does the body have to be built to appeal to teenagers? That isn’t the market that would be buying the thing.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Oh, wow. Bye, bye Tesla! The Dodge EV looks like a total clone of the Tesla! Even down to the steering wheel (see video!).
I know Tesla has said they will face competition and many have blogged about it being the death of Tesla (Tesla could never compete with the major automaker’s component prices and therefore not be price competitive for a given feature set.) But who knew it would come so quickly?
Tesla may be a bust as a business but may history show they were the pebble that caused the avalanche of mass market electric drive!
God bless you Martin Eberhard, wherever you are!
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
The electrification of the automobile is happening NOW!
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
jerry
“The article says they have been working on this for two years”.
Yes, it does (for whatever it’s worth).
“twice as many cells in series compared to the Volt to push that 200kw motor”
It depends on how long it’s going to be pushed at max power. The time puts the “h” in kwh, which is the more important statistic when talking about batteries. If you’re talking the pure electric, yes; it will need a heck of a lot more. I was mostly talking about the EREVs.
The jeep motor is a 500kw unit, BTW.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Sherman #9: “don’t see how that sports car would be competing with the Volt. It would likely have a $60,000 to $80,000 price tag,”
Interesting. All these comparisons of the ~$25,000 2008 Prius with the ~42,000 2010 Volt, but when the ground shifts, the competition is too expensive.
Sorry Sherman, I had to take the opportunity, but you are right it won’t compete. You just got the reason wrong.
The Volt is a four seat family car designed to be a gas sipper for sedate driving. The Chrysler sports car is for all intents a two seater toy designed for performance.
There won’t be just one EV/HEV market. That’s why price/performance is important and inflating the price $15,000 is a problem.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
So there you have it. Chrysler and Tesla have been talking. That Dodge EV looked and awful lot like a Lotus Elise to me, so I did some Googling. Indeed the body and chassis is made by Lotus. This leads me to believe that the drive train is mostly that of the Tesla. Hopefully with better batteries. Given that this is a car that is almost nearly in production now, I’d say this is what they will be building for 2010. All they have to do is take the Tesla and sanitize it and make it ready for real production.
If they, and I’m dreaming here, put this car out at the same price point as the Volt, I may very well say goodbye to the Volt. Most likely, it will priced “competitive” with the Tesla, so no go for me.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I currently own a Jeep Cherrokee and a Jeep Wrangler and love them both. If Chrysler could produce a four door Wrangler with the the same range as the Volt, I would buy the Wrangler in a heartbeat to replace my Cherrokee.
It will be interesting to see if the new Wranlger can produce 40 miles on a single charge. My current Wrangler is the equivalent of a rolling brick with no aerodynamic qualities whatsoever.
The Volt looks very Prius-esque and may not be a comfortable fit for large individuals like myself taller than 6′2. The extra room and cargo space would tip the balance in the Wrangler’s favor if the price is in the same neighborhood.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Jackson #49: “twice as many cells in series compared to the Volt to push that 200kw motor”
Nope.
It depends on how long it’s going to be pushed at max power.”
The difference in the power rating in the motors is a reflection of the voltage they run at. The Chrysler motor is twice as powerful as the Volt. As the car companies are in discussion with the same battery company, I assume all cells to carry the same voltage. Therefore the Chrysler motor needs twice as many cells to provide the necessary voltage to the more powerful motor.
I agree that this also means that the Chrysler pack would have twice the stored power, which is probably why the range is so good with the sports car and the Jeep Brick can still manage 40 miles on a charge.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I think Chrysler will produce the Dodge EV sportscar first. Like we’ve heard, Dodge is probably going to sell their Viper line off and so it makes sense to make their new halo car for the brand a 100% electric beast.
I personally think it looks awesome. It can be priced high enough to justify the cost and it’ll draw some good attention to the Dodge brand. As for the Chrysler and Jeep EREVS, they need to look more distinctive and not be based on existing models. People need to know that these are a new generation of cars (like the Volt) and not just a powertrain option, you know?
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
jerry
“which is probably why the range is so good with the sports car and the Jeep Brick can still manage 40 miles on a charge”
…especially if they’re looking at a shorter life for the battery. To expand on this idea, consider what would happen if you could use 100% of the Volt’s 16kwh pack: you could theoretically get 80 miles per charge (but the battery would be worn out in less than 4 years).
This is going to be interesting to watch.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
#11 Mike-o-Matic Says: “To achieve 40mi. AER in a brick-shaped Jeep or minivan, simply enlarge the battery. ‘Course, they didn’t say anything about price, weight, etc… now did they?”
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Right. Well said!
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Jackson 55:
I am assuming that Chrysler would not thrash the batteries. From past experience, I don’t think GM has anything like a monopoly on common sense.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Here is a good poll:
Will you wait for a GM-Volt, if another 40 mile E-Rev comes to market first?
-or-
Will you wait for a GM-Volt if ANY electric vehicle is released from a ‘major automarker’?
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I’m guessing that by totally throwing the concept Volt into the garbage pail after pretending for over a year to be producing something that was ‘unmistakably the Volt,’….they have also thrown away any loyalty to the brand that those people who loved the concept had.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
my first thought… volt=no doge ev = yes
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:48 pm
jerry
As you may have gathered from earlier replies, I don’t put a lot of credence in Chrysler’s capacity for “common sense” (remember #1, it was the reason for #28). Shorter life batteries allows them to get out the door fastest, and that could be all they’re considering given that they have even less time and fewer resources than GM.
The issue of voltage also will depend on what kind of controller is used, but yes, it’s more likely to be a case of more voltage = more cells … of course that doesn’t guarantee that the individual cells would be the same size (power rating) as those used in the Volt. More cells means more complex assembly, unless they are going to physically separate the two types of cells by pack (which isn’t what they said). This added complexity could come back to bite A123 (or whoever is going to assemble them), in the long run.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
#22 NASA-Todd said:
I want HIGH GAS prices for long enough that people realize an electric motor is far better then a gas engine….
_____
Even though there is not a single E-REV car on the road, GM is already too far committed to turn back now and it is obvious that Chrysler and others are following in their footsteps. We don’t need HIGH GAS PRICES to keep the auto industry on track towards the electrification of the automobile.
Another thing that is obvious to me is the consumers are ready for the Volt and similar cars. They will snatch up all the E-REV cars manufacturers can produce and likely on the very 1st day they go on sale.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
tbay #54: “As for the Chrysler and Jeep EREVS, they need to look more distinctive and not be based on existing models. ”
They are two model years from production. Chrysler just did the cost-effective thing in putting existing body parts on a prototype EV system. Makes sense. Why bother building a concept car from scratch, when you don’t intend to use any of it in production?
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
hi Jackson #1
I owned a Dodge Omni and really liked it. Had good on-ramp acceleration and was easy to work on. Gave the Omni to my brother-in-law and replaced it with a Mustang V6 (new price - $9600). Put 168,000 miles on the Mustang and replaced it with a Honda.
Will look at the Volt in person this Friday at the Santa Monica Expo. Watch for a gm-Volt.com picture link this Friday night. Will get a good look at the build n’ fit and also a peek at the underside. Also want to see what the lower tail looks like. See how the seating is configured. And gauge the tire size (and type) in person.
no plug=no sale
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Chrysler builds crappy cars/trucks with piss pore quality. I had whole list of issues I typed up but the site hung when I posted and cleared them. Here is a reduced list.
Search for the following:
Dodge SRT-10 - Towing Capacity
Jeep Liberty - Ball joint recal, rear brakes
Jeep Liberty CRD - Torque converter issues, Customer Satisfaction Recall / Detune, EGR Valve
Dodge Intrepid - Steering Rack
Chrysler 300M - Steering Rack, Ball Joints
The first time I searched for the term recall google gave me “Dodge Truck Recall Information”
and just to add fuel to the fire: http://www.daimlerchryslervehicleproblems.com/
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Jackson #60:
I think I made it clear that assumptions were made regarding battery size. You didn’t mention low friction tire would also effect range and therefore pack size. Any other minor issues we could bring up? Lets push this to 100 posts ASAP.
As to common sense, I would agree Chrysler’s track record is no better than GM’s.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
did you see the colbert report.. when lutz said you can still pick up chicks with it.. it just will by “crunchy” enviornmentalist older women with hairy legs.. or at least thats the way the conversation went.. too funny
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Actually, the minivan makes a lot of sense. Have you guys seen the “Stow-n-go” seats that Chrysler has? They are able to drop the seats into holes in the floor. I’ll bet on the E-REV version, you will loose the Stow-n-go feature because they will cram that space full of the batteries. Very smart idea Chrysler! Not sure where those batteries will go on the Wrangler, though.
That is all,
AndyChuck
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm
#2 Statik & #8 Mikie Casey
You guys have got to be kidding. You will really take the first piece of junk out there produced by a so called major manufacturer? Really?
There is no way that Chrysler can pull this all together in a fully engineeringly (I may have just invented this word) thought out manner by 2010! If they are able to release some vehicles by 2010, I would run away as fast as I possible. There are bound to be big issues with these cars.
I do however wish them well, perhaps this will push GM to release the volt sooner and in larger quantities and may spurr the better manufacturers to join in this segment.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Let’s not forget that Lithium Ion batteries ought to be recyclable (though there’s no particular chemical reason to keep them out of landfills, the lithium material could be economically recovered for making new cells).
Even though I have a lot of prejudice against Chrysler, no single American car company made the Japanese such a success; all had a hand in it (and deserve a measure of blame). It probably doesn’t make sense for me to single out one of them … but yes, I did own a Plymouth Horizon (I think you were lucky, Dave K; though I think the Omni might have been a little bit better than the Horizon. It wasn’t a ‘78 model, was it?).
Even so, there’s no reason for short-life batteries to mean a waste of resources, and I still think someone is going to give it a try, for the reasons I stated.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:15 pm
AndyChuck
The Voyager series of minivans is the one shining exception to the wrongs of Chrysler, thanks for that reminder.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Great news I have been waiting to hear more news like this.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
#66
oh yeah. i guess your right.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:35 pm
I agree “the more, the merrier”. However, as GM and this website have shown, there will be a LOT of changes between the original announcement and the “for sale” car. For all we know, the Chrysler vehicles shown have ICEs, despite Chrysler’s claims. They would not be the first ones to do that. I still say GO GM! Go VOLT!
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
#67 John S
#2 Statik & #8 Mikie Casey: You guys have got to be kidding. You will really take the first piece of junk out there produced by a so called major manufacturer? Really?
There is no way that Chrysler can pull this all together in a fully engineeringly (I may have just invented this word) thought out manner by 2010! If they are able to release some vehicles by 2010, I would run away as fast as I possible. There are bound to be big issues with these cars.
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Yes.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I am in the camp of first to market with an EV gets my business.
But (there’s always a but), what about the regular guy who wants an EV for commuting? I do not want a 4 second 0-60 sports car that will cost an fortune to insure, nor do I want to commute in a big honking jeep or minivan.
How about this for a far-fetched idea: An EV that is a regular car, something like a Honda Civic or Chevy Cobalt. Something that is compact, something that is not trying to set a world record for 0-60, a normal compact car which is an EV that I can do 95% of my regular driving in.
Why is this so hard to grasp?
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
hi Jackson #68,
I don’t recall the year on the Omni. And I will add that I punished the motor to get all I could out of it. OK, I changed the head gasket (myself) at about 80,000 miles. Very easy to work on and fun.
a short history:
The Horizon and its corporate twin the Omni (sometimes collectively referred to as the Omnirizon) appeared at a critical time, when Chrysler was desperately looking for government support to survive. In 1978, Chrysler had beaten both Ford and GM to the market with a domestically-produced front-wheel drive car to challenge the VW Rabbit. News reports indicated that these fresh small cars, which did indeed begin to sell well, helped persuade Congress and the White House that Chrysler had a future worth saving. The Omni was Motor Trend magazine’s Car of the Year for 1978.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
#67 John S
#2 Statik & #8 Mikie Casey: You guys have got to be kidding. You will really take the first piece of junk out there produced by a so called major manufacturer? Really?
There is no way that Chrysler can pull this all together in a fully engineeringly (I may have just invented this word) thought out manner by 2010! If they are able to release some vehicles by 2010, I would run away as fast as I possible. There are bound to be big issues with these cars.
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Problem with waiting for the Volt for me…and most others (if there is another EV out there), is we have no expected delivery date at all…not for 2011,2012, 2013 and on and on.
All we know for sure is that GM is going to take orders and is exclusively delivering in New York, California and DC to start..and well, I don’t live in those places. With the first 4 years capacity at 190K (10K-2011, 60K-2012,2013,2014), that probably means the Volt is not a reasonable expectation for me until at minimum 2015ish. On top of that…half of the production is also supposed to go overseas, so it could be even longer.
Besides Chrysler has alot less work to do than GM, they are using existing models/platforms that have the kinks already worked out. They are just adding a component…not creating the whole thing from scratch. I think #66 AndyChuck is on the right path…the van already has a huge cavern in the ‘Stow-n-go’ area, perfect for the pack.
————
Isn’t it just about the ‘electrification of the automobile’ and not what it looks like and ‘just getting the wheels on the road’ and ‘no plug, no sale’? etc, etc.
I find it ironic that this logic seems to be used when it is to the benefit of the ‘production Volt,’ but doesn’t apply to Chrysler when they convert existing platforms.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
#52 Mike C.
My sentiments exactly. Also my situation. I am 6′4″ and love the functionality of Jeeps. My last 3 vehicles have been Jeep Cherokees. I love em everywhere but the gas pump.
If there is to be a 4 door Wrangler EV with range extender, I want one. The 4 door Wrangler is like a Swiss Army Truck. It does almost everything a guy could want.
I did the math on my usual driving patterns and in a Volt I would get well over 300 mpg. Even if an EV Jeep is half that, I would want one. I’m at about 17 mpg now.
Starting about 2010, cars are going to get real exciting again.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Well, it is not difficult to predict which one they will make:
Sportscar: Nice halo car, but Chrysler cannot afford halo cars now, they are trying to get rid of the Viper.
Jeep: Imagine all that new tech going on a trail and being shaken to pieces? Too early. Also, the Jeep crowd is not really the market for this type of car, Jeep Wrangler owners would be Honda Civic owners if they were.
So the winner is…
The minivan! Soccer moms will want to show off their new enviromentally responsible vehicle plus they can justify driving a minivan again “phew, a minivan??” - “Honey, it is a hybrid, your SUV is so yesterday…”
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Chrysler is expecting 40 miles without having to go to the extremes GM did (which ruined the Volt), I wonder how. Didn’t I read a long time ago when GM was doing the wind tunnel tests that their design was based on something like 80 MPH? At 80 MPH I’m sure their new shape makes sense, but if the average person is driving 40 miles per day, 20 miles each way, I would think that very few are driving that 20 miles are doing it at 80 MPH.
Me thinks GM might have over engineered the Volt in giving us a mundane looking car. The result will be the competition passing GM right by with style and sales.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
#76 Statik
“It” isn’t just about the volt but it is also not about a race to be first either. The volt “looks” to me to have a lot of thinking behind it. It could be that because I have been following the comings and goings for the last year I feel more comfortable.
If Chrysler or somebody else is able to pull off a quick re-design that has a plug and seems solidly built and thought out to me, they have a sale. But, being that I live in the DC metro area and DC is slated to have some of the first Volt’s, I am seriously leaning to the volt and am ready to put down money on this.
As long as Chrysler doesn’t put out a real junker that gives e-rev’s a bad name, it seems all good to me. I do have this bad feeling (my spider sense again) that Chrysler in a rush to be first (whatever that means) will sacrifice quality and engineering.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:31 pm
It’s interesting to see how much human psychology is going on here.
According to Chrysler, they have been developing these cars for 2 years, i.e., roughly the same amount of time as Chevy. So far nobody has any reason to doubt that or any reason to believe they haven’t been doing as good an engineering job as Chevy, if not better.
But, since Chevy has been making such a big deal about the Volt, and we have been discussing the Volt for over a year, almost everybody just assumes (with no logical reason) that Chrysler’s cars have just been slapped together at the last minute with questionable/shoddy engineering and can’t possibly be as good as the Volt.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Hmmm…. If both the Volt and the Jeep EV were available…
For practical reasons I should buy the Jeep EV, but the Volt is just too cool.
I would take the Volt unless there is some deal breaker that’s not present in the Jeep.
(not buying the minivan or the super cool play toy)
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Todd # 22
You are very insightful. Your post is worthy of a repost. The only reason and I repeat the only reason I will vote Democrat is they will not drill for any more oil and will get us off of oil faster.
This is GREAT news for those of you wanting a VOLT. It will motivate GM to keep on schedule. It will also motivate them to ramp up the 2nd year production rate.
I want HIGH GAS prices for long enough that people realize an electric motor is far better then a gas engine. It’s quieter, smoother and has longer duty cycle with lower maintenance. Even though the Volt has the ICE as an extender, hopefully it will see dramatically less usage then a current cars ICE. As battery life extends the electric only distance, my hope is that people will not want a traditional car even with $2.00 / gallon gas. I’m fully aware of the battery issue, but as an engineer we have to power through the development if we want make a real change.
Plug-In Hybrids need to “Shock and Awe” the market/consumer such that we don’t want a traditional car. I don’t want a transmission, oil changes, starter, alternator, exhaust, etc. I know the volt has some of that, but it’s smaller, used less and over time may become used so little that it’s good for extremely long life. The batteries are still an issue, but you get my point.
It will be a tug of war between using less gas as a nation so the demand falls, then the price drops and the motivation to buy a Volt goes down. So the more the merrier I want the car to succeed to a point that it profoundly changes the consumer’s misguided believe that ICE are better then an electric motor. Your gas tank is better then a battery pack, but maybe that can change with time.
Go Volt and GO Chrysler.
It’s not about Chevy, Chrysler or Ford it’s about Americans making cars that run on power/energy made in America.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
I would really like to see them come out with an EV ’sedan’ car, not a sports car.
Sports cars, generally don’t work where I live based on the horrific road conditions, since sports cars are too low to the ground.
Please come out with a sedan EV.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Chrysler was very smart to choose these 3 very distinct types of vehicles for their the line. By doing so they can throw their EV blanket over probably 90% of the market with these 3 cars. Also by using existing models that are so popular (their minivan and jeep) it will be very easy to integrate current customers into EV products. I’d say Chrysler may have saved themselves today.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
#80 John S
“If Chrysler or somebody else is able to pull off a quick re-design that has a plug and seems solidly built and thought out to me, they have a sale. But, being that I live in the DC metro area and DC is slated to have some of the first Volt’s, I am seriously leaning to the volt and am ready to put down money on this.”
–
Gratz on living in DC! I’m jealous
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#81 Tom S
According to Chrysler, they have been developing these cars for 2 years, i.e., roughly the same amount of time as Chevy. So far nobody has any reason to doubt that or any reason to believe they haven’t been doing as good an engineering job as Chevy, if not better.
But, since Chevy has been making such a big deal about the Volt, and we have been discussing the Volt for over a year, almost everybody just assumes (with no logical reason) that Chrysler’s cars have just been slapped together at the last minute with questionable/shoddy engineering and can’t possibly be as good as the Volt.
—
Agreed.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
# 74 Stew
a normal compact car which is an EV that I can do 95% of my regular driving in.
Why is this so hard to grasp?
___________________________________
A $17,000 Honda Civic plus a $20,000 battery pack would cost how much? Not hard to grasp at all.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:29 pm
This is kind of saying we have an EV capable of 5,000 mile range, but we just half to develop the batteries for it.
So technically they have NO electric vehicle with 2-300 miles because they have no physical working battery.
I love hoy they use that car for PR when it clearly doesn’t exist, even in prototype form, and no research behind the battery.
Would be nice to see a 300 miles EV from one of the big three though.
Using this logic GM could say they have a 300 mile Volt, just the batteries aren’t developed yet
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Lot’s of EV news today. I agree competition is good - especially when it’s all based here in the USA!
Also good news for potential VOLT purchasers…. this news posted tonight:
Automotive News
September 23, 2008 - 6:35 pm ET
WASHINGTON — General Motors’ hopes for a $7,500 federal tax credit to help it sell plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volts may soon be realized.
The Senate this evening passed a complex and wide-ranging tax bill, covering everything from extension of credits for wind energy producers to expanded exemptions from the alternative minimum tax.
Riding along is a small provision creating a new tax credit for buyers of plug-in electric vehicles – none of which is on the market yet. The credit would start at $2,500 and rise to as much as $7,500 for a light-duty vehicle, depending on battery capacity.
A buyer of the Volt would appear eligible for the maximum.
After many months of wrangling over parts of the legislation, the Senate vote was an overwhelming 93-2. The House of Representatives must still act on the bill, but there is strong sentiment in Congress to get a tax bill done this week before lawmakers break for elections. The White House dropped objections to some provisions unrelated to the plug-in hybrid tax credit.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I’ll take the Jeep Wrangler!
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
This is great news for American automobiles. Prices will be competitive.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:47 pm
The chemistry of the LG batteries (lipo) and the A123 batteries (lion) are vastly different. From my experience with both chemistries, you need to treat the lipo batteries with kid gloves. The lion batteries other than the A123 batteries do not deliver high current density. At this time, with the batteries that I have used, the A123 batteries are far, far more robust than the lipos. I believe the LG batteries need the coddling to last, because they are lipos, but the A123 batteries do not. From what I have seen 80% utilization will be nearly as good as 50% utilization, it certainly is not going to half the life from what I have seen. I currently use five 2.3 Amp hour A123 cells in series and draw up to 52 amps to fly a radio controlled plane with a 5.25 foot wing span. I have accedently overcharged them and overdischarged them and they are still delivering the goods. I would need lipos with twice the capacity to even think of getting the same amp draw if I wanted them to last (which they wouldn’t from my experience). I really do not like lipos in case you can’t tell.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I’ll take a Volt and a mini-van. Thanks! Commuter car for me and family car for my wife. Honda? Toyota? Honda is an ICE company — they make products for the purpose of using ICE: mowers, jet skis, motorcycles, cars, jets. I think they will be the last to join the party…. ICE is just too ingrained there. Japanese have a culture of continouse incremental improvement. Americans like revolutions… they try to hit homeruns. GM and Chrysler appear they will start with an advantage. GM seems to still be the most credible. If the Volt was intended to change the image of GM, it’s working on me.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Also of interest, the ‘auto bailout/development’ (whatever you call it), was virtually put through today.
It got attached to the banking sector bailout…which is ‘must pass’ legislation. The controversial bits… like offshore drilling were dropped out…guess thats a post election issue.
This bill has to pass before Sept 30th, because…well, nothing else has all year long, lol.
Gratz to GM, Ford and Chrysler…I guess.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Batteries can become over charged with a temperature change after charging. Lipos get quickly ruined with either overcharging or overdischarging. It can happen with a single occurance. I have a pile of trashed lipos that I need to dispose of that were treated gingerly and they still went bad after a short life.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
jerry & Jackson:
The power rating of the motors will probably have little to do with the actual layout of the battery pack, especially if A123 cells are used since they can accept/deliver high currents. That means lower voltage higher current parallel connections are just as possible as higher voltage lower current series connections because just like in the current model Prius, DC-DC converters can be used to raise the motor operating voltage above that of the battery pack. Of course there’s practical limits on how extreme you can get to either end, but they can have a lot of leeway. They don’t necessarily have to make them higher voltage to operate higher power motors.
I suspect the 40mpc is NOT going to be on the freeway. In the city, those cars are going to be helped considerably by the much larger motors than the volt is using. That will make the motors more efficient and the regen capability much higher. To get 40mpc, they might not need more usable energy from the battery at all if the measurement speeds are low enough.
In any case, with the big motor and brick like bodies (helping at low speeds and hurting at high speeds, respectively), those cars will see a much wider variance in mpc at low vs. high speeds as compared to the volt. Hmmm, actually the larger motors will help at all speeds, but there’s more large motor regen ‘bonus’ in the city.
I for one am personally glad to see some more reasonably sized electric motors. I still think GM is totally missing the boat putting anything shy of 200hp in the Volt.
It’s better for efficiency, it’s better for regen and it’s more fun, too.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
The more companies in the market the better. That’s what drives prices down. Without competition, lower manufacturing costs = more profit, not lower prices.
I’m puzzled by the EV minivan. Assuming a larger battery and 45K for a minivan, no way that’s going to sell. Minivan’s are for practicallity, not style. Why would Chrylser even suggest it? Testing the market….maybe batteries are cheaper than GM is letting on. Exciting times we live in.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I would just add that it would be a serious mistake to underestimate Jim Press. He didn’t work all those years for Toyota for nothing. He was instrumental in their rise in the US. I believe that he was the first and, if memory serves the only, non-Japanese to ever sit on the board of Directors of Toyota.
This is very serious.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
#69 Jackson:
Actually, I think it’s a pretty good idea for the manufacturer to bet on a shorter life battery. That’s what Tesla is doing… They ‘ve acknowledged they expect a 5 year (tops) lifespan out of their battery pack no matter how gentle you are to it, due to the batteries natural degredation.
The flipside is that the \Volt is priced 4x for batteries what it is really going to use… 2x capacity and one more battery under warranty… That seems… overly pricey. Especially since you don’t necessarily get the second battery you will have paid for. Which will really be maddening if the first battery lasts 10.5 years!!
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
# 96 Dave
I agree.
Take Care
Arch
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I have had 5 Chryslers and every one have been great cars and EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS TOYOTA. A minivan with 40 mi/charge-big and safe ( no small Honda Civic). Now thats an electric statement.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Still waiting for Ford to jump on the bandwagon. PHEV are the future.
If you look at early movies, you will see a time when horse drawn vehicles shared the road with engine driven vehicles. We are about to enter another era with a similar sight, vehicles that you plug in domestic energy sharing the road with relics of the past, vehicles that you can only pump in foreign energy. Go Volt, Go GM, Go Chrysler and Go American energy!
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I have to wonder what the longevity of their battery packs will be and the cost. If they can pull that off. Then I am with them.
On a side note the congressional moratorium on offshore drilling expires on Sept 30th. It has been being renewed yearly, but that is not going to happen this year, and with Bush removing the presidential moratorium. Well the only thing standing in the way of oil company’s now, are the States.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
The Jeep and the Chrysler are jokes. Let’s see, we’ll take a 5000 pound minivan with relatively poor aerodynamics, add five hundred pounds for a battery, load it up passengers and all their stuff, and go 40 miles on the battery. What battery? The 28kW battery that costs $20K? OK. So we won’t go 40 miles. We’ll go somewhat less and then the 1.0L motor will power the vehicle. A 1.0L engine for a loaded minivan? Given the question here has been whether a 1.4L engine would power a much smaller vehicle, the idea is ridiculous. You do want to go, right?
Ditto for the Jeep except add to it all the problems of sprung/unsprung weight, the expense of the motors, protecting the motors, and all kinds of other problems, of which there are too many to mention.
The Jeep and Minivan remind me of GM making the Tahoe and Silverado hybrids at huge premiums. Eschewing the idea of building an EV from the ground up, you basically start with a popular vehicle you are currently selling and then, presto, add some electricity. We’re seeing how well that works.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Lido Anthony “Lee” Iacocca is an American industrialist and philanthropist most commonly known for his revival of the Chrysler brand in the 1980’s. Among the most widely recognized businessmen in the world, he is the author or co-author of several books, including Iacocca: Autobiography (with William Novak), and Where have all the Leaders Gone? In his early years, Lido Iacocca changed his name to Lee after going to work for Ford. Both his parents were Italian immigrants from San Marco Italy. In grade school Lee came face to face with ethnic intolerance because of his Italian heritage. He also had two Jewish friends that were treated even worse. This made an impression on Lee that he would never forget. Later in his career when he was with Chrysler, he would name Gerald Greenwald as the Vice President of Chrysler. He would be the first Jew to enter the top ranks of any of the top three automakers. He realized the importance of recognizing people for their contributions and abilities, not their race or nationality. Before Chrysler it was Ford where he began in sales turned a division from last to first place, and developed his management style. Lee says there is one word that describes a good manager, and it is DECISIVENESS. You have to think on your feet. He is known as the father of the Mustang which is just one of his creations. His team or committee were precise thinkers who used research data to decide what type of new car to produce for Americans. “One of the most important things to remember in business is that every problem can not be structured and reduced to a case study if you want to stay ahead of the competition in today’s global market place”.
He was chosen to turn Chrysler on the brink of bankruptcy around after being a 32 year company man at Ford on his ONE DOLLAR A YEAR salary and much more.
Mr. Lee Iacocca is the embodiment of the AmeriCAN® Spirit
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I’ve been lurking on the site for awhile now, and have a question for my first post. I’ve seen several posts saying the Volt will initally be released only in (insert choice of NY, DC, CA, FL here as it varies), but I’ve not been able to find anything that says who from GM said that and when. Is this a fact, suspicion, rumor or what? If it’s a fact can someone provide a link to the reference?
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Imagine you are out in the woods. There is mud and rocks all around. The fresh air smells wonderful and you can hear the birds chirping as you drive along in your 4WD EV. What could be better than that? The high torque, quiet and clean drivetrain is a perfect fit for this application. I want one!!! Thank you in advance Chrysler!
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Interesting…
Chrysler uses “range extender” term like GM…instead of hybrid.
Based on hybrid sales, Toyota is the leader of all other automakers combined. So, why not latch onto a different term like “range extender”. I would guess that the sales force will be educated to this “beat of the drum”:
It is NOT a hybrid….it is an EV with a range extender.
Based on the 3rd party Prius with a plug, Toyota PlugIn Prius could not be called an EV with a range extender. PHEV (PlugIn Hybrid Electric Vehicle) is a more accurate term for a modified Prius.
I wonder if Toyota’s design will be different the 3rd party design.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
#107 BobVL
I’ve been lurking on the site for awhile now, and have a question for my first post. I’ve seen several posts saying the Volt will initally be released only in (insert choice of NY, DC, CA, FL here as it varies), but I’ve not been able to find anything that says who from GM said that and when. Is this a fact, suspicion, rumor or what? If it’s a fact can someone provide a link to the reference?
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Here is a couple, there is a bunch from different sources, but this should do you, has quotes from Lutz and Larry Burns (whose job it actually is on how things are rolled out–VP of Planning/R&D):
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-37-severely-limited-launch-in-2010/
http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/26/lutz-details-volts-new-design-and-production-plans/
http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/09/new-york-now-added-among-first-places-to-get-chevy-volts/
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Jerry
“Any other minor issues we could bring up? Lets push this to 100 posts ASAP”
…that’s pretty much what we do here, in a nutshell
Those citing Chrysler’s “2-year development:”
What else are they going to say? That they hastily cobbled something up? There’s also no proof that they have done the 2 years of development.
DaveP
“DC-DC converters can be used to raise the motor operating voltage above that of the battery pack”
That’s sort of what I was getting at with “it depends on the kind of controller,” but I wasn’t precise, so thanks.
“I suspect the 40mpc is NOT going to be on the freeway”
Agreed.
“I still think GM is totally missing the boat putting anything shy of 200hp in the Volt.”
Don’t forget about Lutz’s super-secret “solution one else has thought of” (that nasaman thought might be switchable windings) which could conceivably equalize what would otherwise be a no-brainer.
I’m of two minds about short-life batteries. This is one of those things best sorted out by the market, IMO.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
So a quick question. We dont use gasoline, how do the states and the fed’s get tax dollers that they used to get on gasoline?
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Here is a fantastic PDF on all the specs for Chryslers 3 EVs, in handy comparitive graph form:
http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/pdfs/Chrysler_EV_Spec_Sheet.pdf
Has all the stats, other than pricetag, we have been waiting on forever for the Volt, of course how can GM know things like 0-60, 1/4 mile, range, etc when they don’t actually have anything to test.
Of interest:
EV -26 kW pack, 0-60 sub 5, quarter sub 13, 150-200 range
Jeep - 27 kW pack, 0-60 9.0, quarter 16.5, MORE than 40 miles EV/400 ICE
Van - 22 kW pack, 0-60 8.7, quarter 16.2, MORE than 50 miles EV/400 ICE
110/120-volt outlet (15A) – standard household power outlet
220/240-volt outlet: (30A) - standard household appliance outlet
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 pm
#111 Jackson:
Those citing Chrysler’s “2-year development:”
What else are they going to say? That they hastily cobbled something up? There’s also no proof that they have done the 2 years of development.
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You think they are just flat out lying? That would be a pretty big lie…and easy to get caught. What is the benefit of the lie? The guy has a vehicle lineup in the flash standing beside him…he has nothing to prove to anyone. He has 12,000 pounds of real life product to back him up.
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Just curious but won’t Chrysler’s batteries fall under the same California state 10 year/150,000 warranty requirements?
Obviously that would not be countrywide, but still one would have to assume Chrysler would be shooting for the same lifespan as GM…neither wants to have to swap these things out anymore than they have too.
I assume they are probably using the exact same pack chemistry and usage bands on their A123 packs, as GM is on their A123 packs?
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Didn’t we just have a discussion about the industry not being ready to ‘double up’ capacity from 32 for like 5 years?
Obviously A123 is capable of producing 27 kW packs now…and if you listen to original GM press/estimates put pack cost around 7-8K…I think even our more technologically savvy members (Nasaman?) were calculating/estimating out a price around $5,000 based on scale of production.
(Regardless of that, we should know once A123 actually gets a auto order from anywhere, with the IPO coming up, I would imagine that would be a disclosure item).
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Does anyone know what happened to Toyota’s planned, ‘the future of green technology day’ in Oregon yesturday. I haven’t heard even a peep about it.
/just curious
EDIT: Nevermind, I got it.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/23/toyota-sustainable-mobility-seminar-explains-where-were-at-and/
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Also, I somehow hadn’t heard that when they passed the $2,500-$7,500 tax rebate on EVs today they increased the amount of rebates as well.
“The new legislation allows for 250,000 qualifying PHEVs to be sold before it expires, but we are not yet clear on whether it would be phased out on a manufactuer-by-manufacturer basis or just end alltogether. Expect these issues to be made clearer in the near future.” -Automotive news
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 pm
107 BobVL - Sorry to say this, but you cannot tag your Volt in the states you mentioned, except Florida. The other three states, DC, CA, and NY, all require a front license plate. The Volt has no visible place to attach a front licence plate, so the Volt can only be tagged legally in the states listed below.
If you don’t live in one of the “back plate only” states listed below, I feel your pain - my state also requires a front plate. After 100 years in the car biz, you would think Bob wouldn’t forget something so important. Apparently, he did. No one on this site can been able to prove me wrong about this, though I wish they could. Until then….
FPRNVS - (Front plate required ? - no Volt. Sorry)
* Purchase of Chevrolet Volt only legal in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, West Virginia, and countries which do not require a front license plate.
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:26 pm
I love the minivan. I always thought the production Volt was too aggressive looking, too extreme. I wanted a family car, not something out of a hot rodder’s wish list. All the Volt fanboys can have their dream hot rod. I want something more urbane and respectable. Losing the Stow-and-Go seats will be a price i have to pay. GM just lost a customer.
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
#116 The Grump
I don’t the ‘tag’ is the issue, lol. Your just kidding with us right? Just funnin?
50 cents worth of plastic, 4 screws and a screwdriver fixes the issue…looks ugly when it doesn’t have a ‘engineered’ spot, I’ll grant you that…but thats life. There is alot of cars who have ‘afterthought’ plates slapped on the front.
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Searching around for the press kit for today’s “Toyota Sustainable Mobility Seminar,” I came across last April’s “Roadmap to Sustainable Mobility”
I thought it might be a interesting graphical read if anyone had some time to kill. You might just want to forget about the ‘propaganda’ parts near the end..it does have some interesting graphical projections on oil, future fuels, alternate power sources, etc.
http://itre.ncsu.edu/ITREmain/news/2008/download/TFF_2008_Presentation.pdf
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
MetrologyFirst:
>>>>….the 40 MPC IS NOT A DEAL BREAKER TO MOST PEOPLE!! Its the electric drive, period….Gm needs to keep pushing E-Flex thru their other cars. Keep the MPC promises out of the equation.<<<<<
Jonbo:
That’s what I have been talking about! The 40 MPC feature is a marketing gimmick to at least some extent. What GM has that I see as beautiful is the series hybrid. The MPC can evolve with battery technology and implementation. If they do that they can allow it to vary to suit all kinds of niche targets, meanwhile getting the most out of what looks to be a really great technology, one that’s future-adjustable.
Say, make all the models plug in because that’s a great gimmick, but make some get 40, and some only get 20 for the near-future models, to make them more affordable. You still have (at least potentially, if they do it right) a wonderfully efficient, dependable vehicle.
I feel a sea change a-comin’.
You know, I think I read an article where a GM representative was talking about doing just that.
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Pull the other leg and it plays jingle bells.
Chrapsler is a bigger piece of crap than GM and the moron they put in charge should have been taken outback and flogged years ago.
I expect everything that asshat says to be a lie therefore I am never disappointed. GE knew he was a loser and threw him under him under the bus, home depot found out what a loser he was and paid big bucks to throw him under the bus, and hopefully soon Crapsler will find out and throw him under the bus and drive over his worthless lieing, stealing, no good ass.
Come on GM, don’t let us down so I can buy a volt and change my screen name.
September 24th, 2008 at 12:02 am
#88 jeffhre
“A $17,000 Honda Civic plus a $20,000 battery pack would cost how much? Not hard to grasp at all.”
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I don’t think it would add up quite like that, but look at it this way:
How many Civic’s did Honda sell last year vs Lotus Elise? There is a much bigger market for small cars like the Civic so why not make an EV for this market?
September 24th, 2008 at 12:06 am
The Grump Says:
“Not legal in Front license plate states”
You are right, those states do