AND 
Chrysler In Discussions With A123 to Supply Batteries For New Electric Car
Tomorrow, Chrysler is expected to unveil its quickly cobbled together version of the Chevy Volt. Reports indicate the car will use the same E-REV paradigm as the Volt, with a 40 mile EV range and combustion range extender.
It was also reported that Chrysler may have to work with a partner on the powertrain.
A late breaking report out of the Wall Street Journal quotes inside sources as saying Chrysler is actually in advanced talks with A123 Systems of Watertown MA to supply the batteries for that car, which is expected to launch by 2011.
A123 is of course one of the two battery suppliers in the running for the initial Chevy Volt production contract.
A contract with Chrysler would help bolster A123s upcoming IPO.
Chrysler for its part with this forthcoming announcement is reportedly responding to fear about being left out of the electric car buzz that the Volt has clearly generated.
Source (Wall Street Journal)
121 Responses to “Chrysler In Discussions With A123 to Supply Batteries For New Electric Car”
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
first POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Go A123 & Chrysler!
Yay…I’m first!! Darn…now second!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
How in the hell did that happen–if true?
Wouldn’t GM’s legal brass ensure that the design would not be used in competition with the manufacturer? I suppose if rejected A123 could take their product elsewhere, but wow…it’s the same darn battery.
If I had to bet, I’d say A123 lost the contract with GM and saw Chrysler as the next best thing, which it may be.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Heh… “quickly cobbled together version of the Chevy Volt.”
Glass houses and stones and all that.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I guess it goes to show pretty much ANY automaker can do this “moon shot”. The real question is whether or not they think it is worthwhile.
I’m going to call the Volt “GM’s Late Knee-Jerk Over-Reaction to the Toyota Prius”.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I would be very surprised if this came to fruitation. Read this exchange with Chrysler I had back in June where I asked them on their future plans for a BEV. I was starting to wonder if they were actually reading my emails, it would have been funny if it wasn’t so depressing.
My post on SeattleEVA asking Chrysler about BEV’s
http://www.seattleeva.org/smf/index.php/topic,76.0.html
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Although Chief Executive Robert Nardelli has slashed costs and sold off assets,…
The reason why Chrysler’s car is delayed, unfortunately.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Good!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:35 pm
This is a good PR move for Chrysler. By simply saying that they are jumping on the A123/Volt bandwagon their name will be be mentioned in nearly every Volt related article.
The last line of most articles will read… Chrysler Corp is also working with A123 to produce their own EV.
And Chrysler’s release of an artists rendition of the car (2008 CR-V?) is an obvious reach to mass appeal. Good move Chrysler.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Dave B #3:
“Wouldn’t GM’s legal brass ensure that the design would not be used in competition with the manufacturer? I suppose if rejected A123 could take their product elsewhere, but wow…it’s the same darn battery.”
As I have said multiple times, The basic idea of the Volt is not a bew design. GM can’t patent it.
GM might have been able to get an exclusive contract with the battery maker, but not without committing to the manufacturer (which they haven’t done) and showing they are serious by shelling out lots of money (which they obviously didn’t do) fpr an exclusive contract.
On an earlier thread, people compared GM to Apple and the Volt to a Mac. Assuming all of the cheerleaders are correct and the Volt is the next big bang, I would suggest that GM is more like IBM.
Let the clone wars begin.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Stew #6: You are basing this conclusion on a response from a customer service rep?
If you wanted a quick response from someone equally enlightened, you could have just asked one of the guys in detailing at the local dealership.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Chevy trumps Chrysler, but seriously a Service rep?
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Come on in Chrysler, the more the merrier. Did they announce a release date (of course, No one ever hits the announced date….(g)). Wouldn’t GM have tied up battery production for A123 *IF* they were to make the Volt’s batteries? Shrug.
Fun times though!
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
The concept behind the Volt is nearly identical to the Fisker Karma which is nearly identical to the Prius conversions done in any number of places, etc. I doubt the serial hybrid can change much at this stage, the Karma and Volt even have the same seating arrangement to handle the battery. Mazda will probably follow a similar pattern. What will make or break any of these is design and price. Fisker aims to the high-end sporty stuff. The Volt should (as in, we’ll see) be aimed at the masses. I have no idea what Chrysler and Mazda are going for. Right now, the Volt comes closest to a pre-written list of features I actually want, but I am open to anyone who can give me the performance and features I’m hoping for. Competition is good.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:47 pm
>> I’m going to call the Volt “GM’s Late Knee-Jerk Over-Reaction to the Toyota Prius”.
Lutz pretty much admitted that anyway, regretting the success of Prius years ago and showing off a concept model that would have done better in a wind-tunnel backward.
We’ll all have a good laugh, question the “cobbled” remark, then move on to realistic solutions for the masses. The problem of getting stuck with a niche vehicle hasn’t really been taken seriously.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Yes lots of clone wars and shake outs, will see more of in two to three years. Best wishes to all of them
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
GM credit rating was further reduced today from B- to CCC by Fitch Ratings. This is many levels below JUNK status. This is why GM wants government bailout money, because the interest rate for them to borrow from private industry is enormous due to their poor credit rating.
Also, GM has recently used up all their Revolving Credit to pay off other debts, very bad news.
GM recently decided that they will NOT be advertising in this years Super Bowl, another sign of impending doom for this once proud company.
Parts suppliers are getting very nervous. GM must maintain between 11 and 14 billion in liquidity or they will start losing supplier’s confidence.
Things are not looking good here, despite GM management trying to paint a pretty picture, Don’t Believe It.
I hope GM survives, but I would guesstimate a 45 percent chance they will fold sometime next year.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Competition is always good. Since Toyota has lagged behind in their introduction of such a car — and since it’s recent comments that GM could not pull the Volt off… I think it makes sense for every company to jump into the fray and not sit by the sidelines to see if the Volt succeeds in the market or not.
Right now, with hurricanes wiping out our oil rigs and refining capacity and with much political game playing over prospecting for new domestic oil — The writing is on the wall for more soaring gas prices in the future. OPEC and Venezuela be damned..
I think GM will find success with the Volt, even though it’s styling looks less revolutionary than evolutionary–such as , why a fake wind-pushing signature Chevy grill when no grill is necessary? GM leaves the door to competition VERY OPEN by making the Volt far less utilitarian than the Toyota Prius by having far less useful space inside and only seating FOUR. This will hurt Volt sales as rumor has it it will not be cheap—and people can buy a small compact for A2B commuting to work.
The Prius was and is groundbreaking, it’s design now being copied by Honda’s upcoming Insight…. It’s cab-forward, wheels at the corners-hatchback format still makes the long-hooded Volt look inefficient, use-of-space-wise. If anything, the Volt will prove that a car of it’s type is possible and feasible. Just wish GM put more engineering towards making it more useful for it’s price. I bought a Prius instead of a minivan because no efficient, electric-assist family hauler existed. I found I can haul two small children and their stuff in a smaller, efficiently designed vehicle. I may buy a Volt as a second car just to support it’s technology’s success…I’m rare though, the masses need a fuel-efficient SPACE efficient people mover.
If Toyota builds a Volt-type ICE assist EV that is streamlined like the Prius and will carry my family and a load from Costco, I’ll purchase that vehicle which meets my needs. GM, Chrysler or Ford would be wise to introduce that car vs. a proof-of-technology piece with the seating of a Mustang or Camaro.
A123’s LiFEPo battery formula looks to me like the answer to lithium volitility and a great way to go for GM, Chrysler would be smart to jump onboard. It’s previous collaboration with several car companies to develop the “in-transmission-case” hybrid system present in the Aspen and Tahoe hybrid showed collaboration can get new-tech product on the market relatively quickly.
Competition and moving ahead of foreign competition—it’s a good thing….and I’m not MARTHA STEWART!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Sarah Palin is the Volt’s Best Friend.
Absentee Voting for POTUS begins this week, don’t forget who is looking out for you and the mighty Volt.
I want to thank everyone on this site for your support.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
If GM does not use A123 (based on my info, the best chemistry)…
Would you buy a Chyrsler E-REV instead of a GM Volt?
It’s getting more interesting…
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:13 pm
>> Since Toyota has lagged behind in their introduction of such a car
Counting chickens, eh? Volt isn’t available yet and high-volume production is a long way off.
>> The Prius was and is groundbreaking, it’s design now being copied by Honda’s upcoming Insight
One is a FULL hybrid, the other is an ASSIST hybrid. There is very little is in common.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
john1701a 20:
Both the Prius (parallel hybrid) and the Volt concept (serial hybrid) are transitions.
From an engineering standpoint, a serial hybrid is much simpler than a parallel hybrid.
Parallel hybrids preceded serial hybrids because at the time parallel hybrids were being developed the battery tech didn’t make serial hybrids feasible.
I don’t think Toyota is married to parallel hybrids. There is just no point in them retooling and replacing a very successful product when there is no competition. When/If the time comes, they will make the necessary changes.
Because the serial design is simpler to implement, we will also see clones developed much more quickly than we are seeing for the Volt. Battery tech is the bottleneck once that is defeated, there will be choice in the serial hybrid market, if serial hybrids is the right format moving forward.
Again, I don’t know why anyone who really studied this would chant the GM mantra that the Volt is somehow revolutionary.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:36 pm
>> Both the Prius (parallel hybrid)
Parallel? That doesn’t make any sense. Speeds up to 62.1 MPH forward and all speeds backward using only electricity with the engine motionless is a serial characteristic
Prius is actually a SERIES-PARALLEL type hybrid. But that’s a pain to type and confusing to reference. So, the term FULL has been used for the last 8 years instead.
And of course, the parallel reference misleads about the ASSIST hybrids. Credibility is reduced when lumping different types of hybrids together. Keep constructive by avoiding that.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I suppose this may mean LG got the GM contract. Will Lyle create a new website for the Chrysler? Will someone else? And now for the real question, what is the production schedule for the Chrysler A123 battery packs.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 9:47 pm
If the GM Volt website is going to discuss all electric/hybrid vehicles why not mention that Volkswagen should have an entry level Up! car on the market by 2010 and Daimler is going to have the Smart and potentially the A and B class cars on the market by 2011 using Tesla batteries. Also Magna International is working on its own sedan for 2010. Lots of things happening in 2010/2011!!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
#11 Jerry
Lol. Yeah, you’re right. BUT, these were supposed to be Chrysler’s customer care people; you know, the people who are supposed to GET the answers when they don’t KNOW the answers.
I just want some manufacturer to get an electric car to the market, I don’t care who really, I am tired of waiting already.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 10:29 pm
#14 John
Just a few thoughts…
Correct…the Volt is a niche vehicle. The question…how big is the niche? Drivers are aching for complete freedom from the oil companies. We have drivers extreme hypermiling in the Prius to get the best MPG possible…and converting the Prius to a PHEV with a 3rd party product or something thrown together under a shade tree. Yet the modified Prius still uses some gasoline.
GM’s claim: Out the box…the Volt will go 40 miles without the ICE turning one revolution (in a warm climate anyways). Extreme owners will be attempting to go thousands of miles without using gasoline at all. Heck…the thousands of miles are possible without extreme measures if the Volt is used for a short daily commute only. The extreme owners will probably overcome the stale gasoline issue also. Of course, real world experiences are needed for these claims.
It appears that Toyota’s design for the Prius PHEV will be close to the same as the 3rd party and “shade tree” design. While very effective, it still is designed to use the ICE occasionally. This is probably a better design than E-REV….yet the current owners of the 3rd party Prius PHEV still go to extremes to keep the ICE from running at all.
Of course, price is a HUGE factor. However, if the SUV (the ones that only really need a small car) and luxury car drivers decide that an E-REV is the “must have” vehicle…the niche could be big. Somehow people were able to scrape enough money together to buy a SUV that is priced out of the mainstream.
The PHEV vehicles are a new market…and the Volt is GM’s first “proposed” PHEV vehicle. I agree…some enthusiasts have expressed dismay at appearance changes and features of the Volt.
Only one feature is of real importance…40 miles AER.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 10:39 pm
#21 Jerry – “Again, I don’t know why anyone who really studied this would chant the GM mantra that the Volt is somehow revolutionary.”
It is revolutionary. The tech may not be — GM had a serial hybrid working for the purpose of testing the EV1 — but actually going to production with a car using the tech is.
It’s completely surprised the Japanese and shocked Tesla, Ford, and Chrysler. Hey, Toyota has had a death watch on the Volt and Ford called it a “Hail Mary”. Yeah, it’s revolutionary.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
I wonder what kinda performance it’s gonna have!!
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September 22nd, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Might I remind people that this is not a political website and those that subject us to their shameless biases should be banished and ridiculed.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Surely GM will licence its technology to Chrysler, why reinvent the (steering) wheel?
The US automakers are wanting a quadrizillion dollars from the taxpayers for a rescue package, couldnt they share a little?
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Stew #25:
Good luck with that, mate.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:09 pm
John 1701a: “Prius is actually a SERIES-PARALLEL type hybrid. But that’s a pain to type and confusing to reference. So, the term FULL has been used for the last 8 years instead.
And of course, the parallel reference misleads about the ASSIST hybrids. Credibility is reduced when lumping different types of hybrids together. Keep constructive by avoiding that.”
You have got to be kidding. Every manufacturer adds to the obfuscation by claiming their car is different and slapping new meaningless label on it.
Example: Volt = “assisted Hybrid”
This is nothing but marketing BS, and perhaps one of the problems in these discussions.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Excellent, more choice = more competition = better prices.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
DonC #27: “It is revolutionary. The tech may not be — GM had a serial hybrid working for the purpose of testing the EV1 — but actually going to production with a car using the tech is.”
Problem is that it is not in production (and may never be see #16), and might not be the first. All I am asking for is a little less levity (O.K., a reality check) from some of the cheerleaders.
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:26 pm
The new ELECTRIC Range Rover will be unveiled this week.
It will have a 200 MILE RANGE !
Take that Voltheads and your measley 40 mile AER.
Late
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I hope they all bring out an ev the more the merrier, but get something on the market, getting off oil is whats important, the batteries won’t get better til they get a ev on the road. And why won’t Tesla put an ice in the roadster to keep it going?, once someone gets an ev on the road there will so much improvement on everything, but somethings got to get out here and soon—–NO PLUG NO SALE
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September 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 pm
17 James: “The Prius was and is groundbreaking, it’s design now being copied by Honda’s upcoming Insight”
You could even argue that Toyota copied the Prius design from GM. Do a Google Image search for “GM Precept”. I have to admit that the Prius looks better, though.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 12:12 am
#5 GXT Says:
I guess it goes to show pretty much ANY automaker can do this “moon shot”. The real question is whether or not they think it is worthwhile.
I’m going to call the Volt “GM’s Late Knee-Jerk Over-Reaction to the Toyota Prius”.
AND
john1701a Says:
“Lutz pretty much admitted that anyway, regretting the success of Prius years ago…..”
You’re right in saying that anyone can do this “moon shot” remembering that the Soviets actually reached the moon first: they crashed an unmanned piece of junk in which nothing larger than a soda can survived. Maybe that’s Chrysler.
Secondly, it was the Tesla more than the Prius that got Lutz all lathered up although admittedly he said they missed the boat with regard to the Prius.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 am
No one wants to be the only company without a plug in by 2011. Chrysler no exception.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 12:41 am
Jerry @ #10
“Assuming all of the cheerleaders are correct and the Volt is the next big bang”
Jerry @ #34
“Problem is that it is not in production (and may never be see #16), and might not be the first. All I am asking for is a little less levity (O.K., a reality check) from some of the cheerleaders.”
————————————————————————————
I’ll assume you refering to most of us that frequent this site daily with your cheerleader comments.
Dude in all seriousness what is your purpose for coming to this site?
It’s obvious you think Toyota is great and GM sucks.
What is your purpose here?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 12:49 am
Why did you type out this brainfart? Obviously you are clueless or you would see that Obama backs a bigger incentive for alternative vehicles, and has a vastly superior energy plan beyond simply drilling for more oil like we always have done. Which is all McCain’s plan is. Wake up man.
Nobama , you are retarded…
“Nobama wrote”
Sarah Palin is the Volt’s Best Friend.
Absentee Voting for POTUS begins this week, don’t forget who is looking out for you and the mighty Volt.
I want to thank everyone on this site for your support.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 am
The problem with EREV and the Volt in particular is that it has upset the climb to a gradual increase in technology. It was always anticipated that parallel hybrids would eventually be the next step- and then plugin parallel hybrids. It was expected that batteries in hybrids would slowly grow as they became affordable, and consumers would slowly make the switch as they have found it to make sense. No one ever expected GM to skip a few steps with the electrification of the automobile- and one that goes 40-miles on a charge.
The big question is: Are auto makers (and particularly consumers) ready for this skip? Can people afford 40-mile battery packs, and what happens if people can’t? How long can GM and other auto makers float on the early adopters and rich and famous and positive PR alone? If they can’t find a mass market for the Volt, and soon, it will die just like the EV1 did.
Looking forward to see what everyone else comes up with.
(By the way, I didn’t like the bias of this article.)
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:49 am
Thanks Lyle,
Very interesting, because monopolistic competition is starting BEFORE the products are on the markets. This quite unusual in industrial economics and problematic.
When Chamberlain first introduced this monopolistic competition model in the ’60s, it was quite revolutionary because it explained why in the modern industrialized world, producers are always on the verge of bankruptcy unless they always innovate and create new attractive products that for a while will generate profits before imitators take more and more market shares until the “Chamberlain condition” is met : that is average cost = average revenue while the usual condition marginal cost = marginal profit still holds.That means no profit.
So such an early competition could drastically reduce the market share of both GM and Chrysler with problematic consequences : insufficient returns to scale to drive the average price down, no profits to reinvest in R&D, etc.
Usually in car manufacturing, imitators begin to take market shares 2 years after the new product is introduced on the market by the inventor, it seems it is not the case here.
Times are very interesting …
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
First of all it’s not a E Flex Drive System period. The chevrolet Volt will be in production period. There in talk with the battery manufacture, they have not sign a contract with them. Gm will most likely will get the contract.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:50 am
The E-Flex Drive System will be on many more cars.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:56 am
Why would A123 give GM an exclusive? A123 is in its ascendancy. GM is heading toward… Losing market share, may be soon bankrupt, still committed to gas guzzling SUVs and pickups.
While Chrysler is similar to GM, there is far more opportunity for A123 in the world automotive market than at GM and Chrysler combined.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:03 am
I belive Gm has already sign with A123 system’s already. Chysler has not sign with them. The chevrolet volt has already went 40 miles I belive on A123 batteries. Gm is not going anywhere.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:04 am
I think competition is great. Having Chrysler in the game and who ever else joins will only help, every body! Competition means more battery production, more production means lower prices!
I also suspect that Chrysler may be bolder in their design approach. While the Volt looks nice for an average 2008 vehicle, remember that it’s going to be out in the 2011 model year, so in 2001 GM will introduce a very average 2008 vehicle. Chrysler already has cars with straighter lines and I wouldn’t be if Chrysler’s car looks more like the Volt than the Volt does. Time will tell but, one thing for sure, the electric car is our future! We can thank GM for bringing the electric car to the for-front.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:24 am
Aerodynamic is going too play a role in how there car’s performs as well.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:36 am
For every-body saying it’s a PR stunt from Gm about the volt. Well it’s not and Gm has planes to have these E Flex Drive System be mass-produce. Gm has already started working on other cars’s for the E-Flex Drive System to be put on.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:47 am
Any how I’m hearing that Gm is going too build it’s own battery.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 4:16 am
I am a Volt fan, but it is not like this Chrysler came from the blue.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9850711-54.html
Competition is good. There won’t be enough electric cars to meet the demand anyway.
I think A123 has the best battery and it is patented, good luck with trying to manufacture a copy.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 4:42 am
All chysler is doing is talking not signing a contract period. Like I said before I belive Gm has the contract with A123 Systems.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 5:05 am
#52 Len,….Check #183 from yesterday…..Also you’re right, there won’t be enough electric cars to meet demand…
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September 23rd, 2008 at 5:58 am
Interesting that Chrysler’s entry is perceived as “cobbled together”. GM makes much better products in my opinion, but many US consumers feel differently. Chrysler may be trying to make the same improvements; I’m keeping an open mind.
tcvhtwmstbr
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:12 am
It takes a lot of money to develop new automobile systems. That’s why GM collaborated with BMW and Chysler on the ~ billion dollar 2-mode hybrid system, to save money.
I forsee a similar situation with Chrysler, although at this point they may just license the E-Flex system from GM. Again, this makes sense for GM as well, because it increases volume.
Back in April, after Lyle’s visit to Michigan (media event for the Volt), an interview with some of the folks in the battery lab was posted by one of the auto sites. In this interview, the GM lab engineer stated that the performance for A123 and LG Chem batteries was very similar. Also, he stated that is was good business practice to have 2 battery suppliers, obviously in case one company had a production problem.
Here is the link with the discussion from the battery engineers:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/07/the-april-2008-chevy-volt-update-a-visit-to-the-battery-systems/
Personally, I see one battery supplier perhaps getting the award for the Volt, but that will leave the other battery supplier to make batteries for the Opel Flexstreme, Cadillac Provoq, or what ever vehicle that comes next in the E-Flex development program. It also leaves a backup supplier in place in case the primary supplier can’t meet its commitments.
The E-Rev concept will be very popular in the US, where people want the option of taking longer trips without range anxiety. Although GM cannot patent the basic concept, be assured that they will patent some of the more intricate systems that are necessary to make it efficient.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 am
I hope A123 provides the battery only to the domestics car makers. I’m tired of seeing Japan getting a free ride using our technologies and then getting credit as being so smart. I know many will say, the more the merrier but it is time we start thinking about protecting our technologies unless you don’t mind being a second rate nation.
For those who don’t remember past trade issues with Japan or are too young to know, read this.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:26 am
#18 Nobama Says: “Sarah Palin is the Volt’s Best Friend.”
————————————————————————————-
McCain is offering a $5K Volt tax credit. Obama is offering a $7K Volt tax credit.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:41 am
#13 Grant says “The Volt should (as in, we’ll see) be aimed at the masses.”
===================
“..the masses.” We use this terminology often here, but it bothers me, as I’m not sure there is any such group of car buyers. Do we mean low income car buyers? Certainly they are not going to buy Volts. Beyond that, “masses” is definitely not “..the huddled masses yearning to breathe free”, as they don’t have enough money.
Does it mean the average car buyer? but who is that? For Chevy, there are no “masses” buying any car. Chevy is at present an SUV and truck brand.
Is it intended to mean those who are uneducated in terms of cars? or otherwise? sort of a put down of those beneath our level? The peasants? I don’t know that to be the case, but the word’s general usage seems to carry that overtone.
Or, does it mean “high income people who life on the coasts”? There are quite a few, but “masses” does not seem to be the right word.
I don’t mean to pick on this particular post, but cite it simply as an example of the frequent use of this identifier on this blog..
So if you look at the post, what group is it that constitutes these “masses”?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:44 am
I hope Chrysler does the Jeep Renegade concept shown at the January Detroit auto show.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 am
#22 john1701a Says: “Parallel? That doesn’t make any sense. Speeds up to 62.1 MPH … Prius is actually a SERIES-PARALLEL type hybrid…”
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Whatever you call it, the fact is that the Prius engine comes on when you step on the gas, even at low speeds.
I test drove a Prius, and this is exactly what it did. At 35MPH accelerating into traffic, the Prius lagged, then the engine came on, then it took off.
So there really is no all-electric range with a plug-in Prius. The point is that the Prius gas engine and electric motor must work in parallel to provide reasonable acceleration. Most people call this a parallel hybrid.
By contrast, the Volt has an all-electric drive train with a gas/electric range extender. In other words, if you yank out the gas engine, you still have maximum horsepower up to 40 miles with the Volt.
To see how much difference this makes for a typical driver, look at the Average combined MPG for the Volt vs. a Plug-In Prius using the following typical yearly driving pattern:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
The Plug-In Prius gets 70 MPG average, while the Volt gets 314 MPG average.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:53 am
#43 Jean-Charles Jacquemin says ” So such an early competition could drastically reduce the market share of both GM and Chrysler with problematic consequences : insufficient returns to scale to drive the average price down, no profits to reinvest in R&D, etc.”
Thank you for this informative and thoughtful post. There are a couple of factors:
1) As of now, neither company has a product for sale. It may be 2 years or more after the first is produced before the second becomes available.
2) As the overall car market is hugely larger than either company will supply for some number of years, and as each company has a core following of customers loyal to its brand and dealerships, it may be that they are not competiting with each other very much during that time. That is, demand may be greater than aggregate supply. (A similar situation existed for a while after the introduction of the IBM PC AT.)
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:58 am
Go tesla! Built a company from scratch and beat the big 3 to market, and has better range and performance. All tesla has to do now is go to walmart, buy a $500 coleman generator set and it has a range extender in one day!!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:03 am
It looks like Chrysler has a Jeep Wrangler set up as it’s EREV.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26850309
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:06 am
46 Greenman:
I am getting really sick of coming to this site and hearing that tripe. Yeah, I said tripe. “committed to gas guzzling SUVs and Trucks” Really? Seriously? You STILL parrot the unthinking non-critical thinking corporate line? A company that should have more hybrid options than any other manufacturer by 2010 and you STILL regurgitate that?
In case you don’t know GM is the biggest almost everywhere on the planet other than N. America. A123 has huge options “worldwide” with the general. The Japanese aren’t going to do huge business with them since its a US firm. Koreans “might” but they have their own battery labs.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 am
63 THOM:
…and get their battery pack to have > 3 years life, ramp production up to >50 a year, and maybe build their own chassis.
But yeah, Tesla smoked everyone.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:15 am
#47 Speedy Says: “I believe Gm has already sign with A123 system’s already. Chrysler has not sign with them. The Chevrolet volt has already went 40 miles I believe on A123 batteries. Gm is not going anywhere.”
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To be clear, there are 2 companies competing to supply battery cells fro the GM Volt.
A123 is a small American start-up that leases space in Chinese manufacturing plants to produce their cells.
LG-Chem is a big company in South Korea with their own manufacturing plants.
Note that big companies generally like to do business with other big companies, so don’t be surprised if GM goes with LG-Chem. On the other hand, A123 does have access to big manufacturing, and they may have a better chemistry. So we really have no idea which company GM will choose.
In either case, an exclusive deal would be very unlikely, as GM doesn’t have the cash for this. So it’s quite possible that one battery company may supply cells to more than one car maker.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:15 am
I think the term “cobbled together” is not realistic. Just because GM has been more open about their development of the Volt does not mean that every other manufacturer could have an E-REV type project in the works….
And if in fact Chrysler is going to license the GM E-FLEX technology, there is no real reason why they could not have their vehicle out pretty quickly.
RB #59: Over the last 17 months or so that I have been active on this site, the term “masses” seems to be applied to the buyers that are spending $19K – $25K for a family vehicle. I have always questioned that logic, since the average price for a new vehicle has been over $30K since 2006. I had a link for that, but I can’t find it right now.
Personally, I hope there are a dozen plug in electric vehicles on the market in 2010 & 2011. That way, my chances of actually getting to own one before 2012 in NE Ohio will go up significantly!!!
No Plug – No Sale!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:18 am
Chrysler did the unveiling live on CNBC this morning. From memory, they showed 3 cars: a sports car (all electric, > 100 mile range, 0-60 in 5 seconds), a minivan (40 mile EREV), and a Jeep (40 mile Erev with in-wheel electric motors). The reporter drove the sports car.
They said this would all be consumer-driven. The vehicles could be in fleet testing in 2009. They were somewhat squishy on production committment. They did not say “we will produce this vehicle in 2011″. I think they said something like “one of these vehicles could be production in 2011″.
.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:21 am
The attitude that surprises me here is that Chrysler “cobbled together” something out of the blue while GM still has the best game in town.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If GM is not careful with their timing and pricing they are going to get *run over* with more and more announcements like this.
I think its GREAT for the future of our country and GREAT for the future of electric cars – but it remains to be seen how great this will turn out for GM.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:38 am
>> I test drove a Prius, and this is exactly what it did. At 35MPH accelerating into traffic, the Prius lagged, then the engine came on, then it took off.
I find it intriguing that you judged based on sound & feel. Those that take test-drives who focusly solely on the speedometer instead report very different results.
They comment about how impressive the electric motor (50kW) power is, even though it is silent and there is no vibration. By the time the engine joins in, the car is already moving along quite well… though you’d swear the opposite without feedback from the speedometer.
That lack of shifting makes acceleration very deceiving, which is why the first thing you actually notice is the engine.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:38 am
#63 THOM Says: “All Tesla has to do now is go to Walmart, buy a $500 Coleman generator set and it has a range extender in one day!!”
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I’m not sure if you’re joking here, but just to give an idea of the size of the problem, I found this generator at Walmart for $700:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10099156
You would need 10 of these generators to match the power of the Volt’s gas engine generator.
Also, if you parked the Tesla Roadster and used one of these $700 Walmart generators to recharge it, it would take around 10 hours, assuming you could get it to work at the right voltage and current, and the generator’s gas tank is big enough.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 am
#43
There is the Jean-Charles Jacquemin I know, hehe. Good time to be a consumer.
I would suggest that these multiple players, who are innovating EVs concurrently are not really in danger of being pushed to the brink of bankrupty because of competing innovative products…the auto industry is a pretty good historic example of everyone just producing the same thing, decade over decade, with slight variations.
I think the economy has fundamentally changed the automarket in a short enough time frame that it has been caught falt footed, and now the breadth of vehicles they produced are obsolete…but still selling, (much slower and at a discount, as the automakers bastardize their own markets), due to the lack of ability on the automakers part to convert to this new thrifty economic reality.
This change has pushed a good number of companies to the edge of bankruptcy , but I think they are all rushing to re-establish themselves and realign themselves with the consumer and attempting to renew/reset the system that had been in place for the past several decades.
I think at the end of all this, we end up with 3-4 less automakers, but we essentially have the same system…for awhile.
(The battery packs themselves threaten most of ‘big auto’ I think, as the current ICE systems have two main features, performance and efficiency….this is the basis of the price structure hierarchy. When the pack evolves to a point where it has ample power for satisfactory range at a decent price, it will be virtually impossible to sell anything on the basis of ‘performance’ or ‘efficiency’–only the most streamlined of companies can compete…probably not the description most associate with ‘big auto’)
SIde note:
How does this senator dude have a 30 mile Prius from A123?
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington-whispers/2008/9/19/sen-lamar-alexander-buzzes-about-his-electric-car.html?msg=1#Comments
He never says the words ‘Hymotion’ but you have to assume that is what he bought off A123 when they came lobbying? 10 mile range/100MPG for 30-40 miles is their gimmick. I think maybe he just has no clue about what he bought.
I will say I LOVE the fact it is just a hardware store extension cord. That is not going to be stolen…and if it is, who cares. Note to GM–keep your fancy plug please!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 7:52 am
#71 john1701a Says: (on the Prius) “The comment about how impressive the electric motor (50kW) power is, even though it is silent and there is no vibration.”
————————————————————————————-
For a parallel hybrid, a 50 kW electric motor is indeed impressive. To be clear, I don’t knock the Prius. It’s the best hybrid out there.
But for comparing plug-ins and all-electric range, 50kW is woefully insufficient for reasonable acceleration. The 120kW electric motor in the Volt is much better aligned with typical American drivers.
Also, on the subject of the motor, note that GM has designed the Volt with an induction electric motor, which uses no magnets. The Prius electric motor still uses magnets. Magnet based motors are much harder to scale up to higher power. Induction motors have much more complicated software algorithms.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:00 am
Statik says “SIde note:
How does this senator dude have a 30 mile Prius from A123?
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington-whispers/2008/9/19/sen-lamar-alexander-buzzes-about-his-electric-car.html?msg=1#Comments
He never says the words ‘Hymotion’ but you have to assume that is what he bought off A123 when they came lobbying? I think maybe he just has no clue about what he bought.”
==================================
Lamar Alexander is well informed on cars. I think he knows exactly what he bought. It’s also worth noting that Tennessee is his state, and a state where the link to the auto industry in Tennessee (that provides jobs and incomes there) is not to the traditional big 3. He was a part of getting them there. So what he is doing is probably something he likes personally and also is good politics in his state. Note he says he paid the same as the customer before and the customer after, so he’s been careful not to get some special inside deal.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:08 am
#73 statik Says: “I will say I LOVE the fact it is just a hardware store extension cord. That is not going to be stolen…and if it is, who cares. Note to GM–keep your fancy plug please!”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, I agree.
You don’t need extra contacts on the plug. It would be better to build a sensor into the charge port cover. For example: If the charge port cover is open, don’t allow the car to move.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 am
Personally, as much as I like the look and promise of the Volt I welcome diversity in the market. If Chrysler can deliver a viable vehicle, that’s great — the odds seem slim if you consider the short notice. It does not appear that they have any substantive development time on any of the proposed vehicles, but I would love to be surprised!
I’ve seen fairly regular mention of tax incentives for the Volt and I must say, as nice as that sounds I have to wonder if anyone really considered just how available such rebates would be? We’re discussing a vehicle which has a very real possibility of being listed for something north of $40K… how many who could afford that expense in the first place would really be able to dodge AMT to take advantage of such a tax credit at all… much less the entire 5 or 7 thousand proposed?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 am
People worry too much about losing their “advantage”, when they should merely focus on getting their product out the door. If A123 is indeed covering their butts due to their loss of the Chevy Volt contract, that is a benefit to GM, because A123 will ramp up production and be in a good position to bid on the next vehicle that GM develops. It all works out in the end.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:26 am
#69 o.jeff Says: “Chrysler did the unveiling live on CNBC this morning. From memory, they showed 3 cars: a sports car (all electric, > 100 mile range, 0-60 in 5 seconds), a minivan (40 mile EREV), and a Jeep (40 mile Erev with in-wheel electric motors). The reporter drove the sports car.”
————————————————————————————
Here’s a link to the newscast:
http://www.cnbc.com//id/26850309
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:36 am
I wonder if this announcement has something to do with the proposed bailout/loan and tax break initiatives that have been floating around. I don’t know the particulars of these legislative initiatives, but they may require that the recipient companies display some commitment to alternative energy and/or oil independance for the USA.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:42 am
>> Also, on the subject of the motor, note that GM has designed the Volt with an induction electric motor, which uses no magnets. The Prius electric motor still uses magnets.
That’s knocking the Prius, whether intended to or not… and the pattern is becoming noticeable.
Blowing off the differences between ASSIST and FULL hybrids, even though having a second motor is a profound difference compared to motor design… is a bad sign. More and more, it’s becoming less about how the vehicle actually operates. Digging deeper into the niche pit isn’t helping.
Try to stay focus on the objective. Isn’t the point to utilize electricity more? FULL hybrids do indeed take a major step forward away from traditional vehicles and are doing a big part in the production ramp-up of automotive batteries.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:48 am
This is the best possible news for GM and the Volt.
To be way ahead on the consensus solution is the best possible position.
If you’re solution is alone it’s a risk, but if others are working on the same thing then its a visionary revolution!
Add one more player and you’ll wish you had some GM stock. (Nissan?)
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:55 am
Thanks for the links that were posted.
Looks like everyone has had their coffee today. Most posts on-topic, few political “discussions”, etc. Then again we haven’t hit the 100th post meltdown point… but I, ahem, remain optimistic (g).
Off to read the links.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:10 am
OK, so what we have here is 3 existing Chrysler vehicles:
• Dodge Viper
• Chrysler Town & Country
• Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
all retrofitted to run as either a pure EV (Viper) or as a 40-mile E-REV. In other words, Chrysler chose to use “existing platforms” for their EVs.
When asked about price, Chrysler’s CEO said:
“… you have a wide range of consumers out there who can handle various price points. So we know where they are, we know where the technology is today, we have to drive that back to the other side of afford ability. We do that in conjunction with, hopefully, this $25 billion appropriation to invest in technology …”
Translation: Yes all 3 of these cars will cost an arm and a leg, so they won’t sell that many, but it’s a great way for Chrysler to get the bailout they so desperately need.
This is bad news. My impression was that Chrysler would actually unveil a modestly priced car that would compete with the Volt. This is, sadly, not true.
To put this in perspective, we have done some rough cost calculations for SUV and Minivan batteries here on this site, and they turn out to be very expensive and very heavy. GM has confirmed this by saying that a new battery technology would be required to bring E-REV to larger vehicles. Indeed, it looks as though Chrysler’s EV / E-REV program was cobbled together for the purpose of green-washing.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:16 am
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 am
84 Dave G:
I think I am beginning to come around to Statik’s point of view that perhaps what we really need is to meld these companies together by gunpoint. With the small diesels/gas vehicles of Ford, the stylings and tech of Chrysler, and the advanced technology/research and branding of GM we might actually be able to create one fully functioning car company.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:24 am
#81 john1701a Says: “That’s knocking the Prius, whether intended to or not… and the pattern is becoming noticeable.”
————————————————————————————–
Well, here’s my full opinion, for what it’s worth. This way, it won’t be a pattern, but just what it is.
The Prius is the most efficient hybrid car available today. Nobody has announced anything better. The best anyone else has done is to announce something similar for less money (i.e. the new Honda Insight).
Toyota is undeniably a great car company. That’s why they are poised to be #1 in global sales this year.
However, when it comes to electric cars available in the next few years, the Prius design has some definite limitations, which I’ve spelled out previously. My hope is that Toyota will recognize these limitations and build a car that competes better with the Volt. Competition is a good thing – everybody wins.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:36 am
#86 Morgan Says: “I think I am beginning to come around to Statik’s point of view that perhaps what we really need is to meld these companies together by gunpoint.”
————————————————————————————–
Well, in the case of Chrysler, I would tend to agree, especially after today’s announcement. Chrysler has been bailed out once already, and they are not really a U.S. company any more.
The U.S. government can’t bail out everyone. This would lead to even more reckless behavior among executives. There needs to be an example. So my bet is that the U.S. government will let Chrysler go the way of Lehman Borthers, and America will be left with the “Big 2″ auto makers. Maybe that’s the kind of wake-up call we need.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 am
Lyle, this is depressing…. while we all know this is a “fan site” and you are the #1 fanboy, and we shouldn’t expect real journalism here, I think you have dropped to new lows
All that wining and dining and free airfare from GM seems to have removed the last of any independence you had 
You said “… Chrysler is expected to unveil its quickly cobbled together version of the Chevy Volt …”
Just start with the word “quickly”… where do you get your data? How do you know how long Chrysler has been working on a series hybrid? They are now a privately held company, and just like Volvo, GM, and others, they may have also had a prototype series hybrid back in the 1990’s.
Then you paired “quickly” with the word “cobbled” which has it’s own negative implications.
And lastly, before you start saying who was copying who, keep in mind that GM’s Volt is a copy of the design of Volvo’s ECC from 1992 (yes, 16 years ago, google it), which GM actually first copied in 1999 with their prototype series hybrid (using a stretched EV1). But if I recall even the Volvo ECC was not the first series hybrid automobile but like EV’s in general, maybe closer to 100 year old technology.
Neither GM nor Chrysler may be first to sell a production series hybrid, Aptera could beat everyone else (though that is still one funky looking vehicle), and I don’t think they will steal market share from those looking for something more conventional looking….
Speaking of which, if Chrysler, or any other automaker sells a series hybrid that seats 5 at a price point no higher than the Volt, one does have to wonder how a 4 seater like the Volt will compete.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:51 am
Jeff M
If you absolutely need a journalism site, you need to go elsewhere. I’m not sure where that would BE, but no one here expects “position neutral” posts.
To suggest that “GM seems to have removed the last of any independence you had” is a new low in accusations here.
Tag
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 am
I predict many more EV entries are on the way besides just the Chrysler guys. GM appears to be at the forefront, just barely, of this wave of electric powered cars about hit the market in a few years. My guess is that GM’s advantage will be short lived as the competition heats up and their volume of EVs will greatly outnumber the GM selection. Electrics have been tried before by many auto companies in the 70s and 90s without much success, will it have staying power this time around ? Consumers will probably not trust them at first as their primary vehicle, so they will be mainly a second of third vehicle for those that can afford it. As secondary vehicles can their sales remain high enough to justify continued production. I remember even the Prius was not selling well in March of this year, many dealers had a dozen or more on their lots, but by the end of April their was a waiting list to get them after gas hit $4. The global economy may end up the deciding factor for EV succees this time around.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 9:54 am
RB #62
Statik #73
I would like to precise that GM will not be the only one to produce an E-car “for the masses” and what we observe from other manufacturers could result in a situation where in the late months of 2010 or in the early months of 2011, more than two manufacturers will put their E-cars on sale.
And I am not sure the market is as large as it seems for the first years of the Volt and other E-cars.
The first to introduce its car will reap the premiums by being the only one.
Thanks for your comments, I really hope we shall see the same story as for the IBM PC.
But I doubt it will be the case.
In Western Europe we have a dozen car manufacturers competing since several decades and the real consumer price for cars (not taking quality in account) NEVER decreased, except for some end of series.
What I hope is that competition will arise for some important parts : motors, batteries, electrically efficient A/C, … and perhaps that could have an impact on the price of the global product.
And never forget what Bob Lutz always says : “The Volt will not make a profit for GM in the first years.”
LGTVWOTR !! NPNS (thanks Tag)
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:01 am
#89 Jeff M Says: “Neither GM nor Chrysler may be first to sell a production series hybrid, Aptera could beat everyone else (though that is still one funky looking vehicle), and I don’t think they will steal market share from those looking for something more conventional looking….
Speaking of which, if Chrysler, or any other automaker sells a series hybrid that seats 5 at a price point no higher than the Volt, one does have to wonder how a 4 seater like the Volt will compete.”
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I actually like the look of the Aptera a lot, but as it’s a 3-wheel vehicle, I would never buy one. You need a motorcycle license to drive it, and even Aptera admits it won’t work well in snow and ice. If I could afford $30K plus insurance for a fair whether vehicle in addition to another winter vehicle, I would buy it. But then again, it looks like I can’t buy it even if I could afford an extra car, since Aptera will only be selling in California.
As for Chrysler, their announcement today was very anti-climactic. I really don’t believe they can make an E-REV SUV or Mini-van for under $100K. Besides which, they would be really heavy and sluggish. The current battery technology just isn’t there for larger vehicles yet. Notice the only test-drive was with the small Viper-based sports car.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:01 am
Chrysler announces
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=864784364&play=1
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:13 am
#91 Klaus Von Reich Says: “I remember even the Prius was not selling well in March of this year, many dealers had a dozen or more on their lots, but by the end of April their was a waiting list to get them after gas hit $4. The global economy may end up the deciding factor for EV success this time around.”
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That’s why I propose that the government sets a minimum price on gas. If gas goes below, say, $3/gallon, foreign oil imports would be raised to bring it back up. This would prevent OPEC from killing electric cars by increasing production, like they did in the late 90’s when gas was less than $1/gallon.
Setting a minimum price would also encourage investment in cellulosic ethanol and bio-diesel, as well as domestic oil extraction from stripper wells, oil shale, and tar sands.
Also, setting a minimum price significantly below the current price would not hurt the economy, since the economy has already adapted to the higher price.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 am
At CNBC’s website there is an article showing additional info and pictures of the 4 potential EVs from Chrysler:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26850309
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
#89
Anyone who has watched Chrysler for 40 years knows that “quickly cobbled up” are the exact and appropriate words to use for anything “new” there.
Pending further competition to the Volt, I think Lyle may find himself running “EREV.com,” in practice, if not in name. In a way, that’s already started.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 am
JonP #40:
“Dude in all seriousness what is your purpose for coming to this site?
It’s obvious you think Toyota is great and GM sucks.”
First, Toyota has a hybrid that is a great success. GM has a PR campaign that has yet to produce anything. Toyota is financially above water, GM is below and sinking. The reasons for comparing GM to Toyota are obvious. People on both sides have done it. When a comparison of those companies is made one clearly wins. You take the comparison and attribute it to bias. That is sad. You need to take the blinkers off.
As to your question “Why am I here?”
When the Volt first came out I was very excited. We were promised an electric drive car, with moderate performance characteristics, the ability to travel several hundred miles, with a little style, and a price tag at around $25,000. I thought such a car would really shake things up. It would sell like hotcakes and compel other manufacturers to invest in R&D propelling the PEV industry forward.
Now what do we have (and we are not even at the end of the R&D period)? A car that accelerates like a slug, that looks like every other car, is prohibitively priced for many, and is slated for only limited production in the first two-three years. And yea, I am frustrated.
All the time, the cheerleaders have continued cheering, apparently oblivious to how the metamorphosis of the Volt would actually effect its viability and its probable effect on the market. Folks when GM moves the goal posts you need to put down the pom poms and reassess. When you don’t, all of us just keep sinking.
As the Volt concept currently exists, I honestly do not believe it will sell. Most people can’t afford the Volt now. The Mercedes crowd can afford $5-$6/gal gas. Some even welcome it because it gets the poor people off the road. Gas prices alone won’t convert people with money to be green. They are going to make a cost/benefit calculation and if that is favorable, ask themselves what premium is worth continuing to drive their ICE.
To compound the problem, the Volt is a Chevy. Chevy doesn’t exactly have a great rep in quality, reliability and service. These things are important to people who spend $40,000+ for cars.
The short of it is that the Volt has got to be produced and priced for those 80% of Americans that travel 40 miles to work. If it is not, it becomes another excuse for car companies to not produce electrified cars. Assuming the Volt even comes available to you, odds are most of you cheering for it will never be able to afford it. That is irrational and affects everyone.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:01 am
What I find encouraging about Chrysler’s announcement is that their minivan EV & Jeep EV both claim to employ the same architecture as the Volt. They even describe them the same way –i.e., as being purely-electric vehicles for the 1st 40 miles, then use a small conventional engine to extend the range to about 400 miles. So whether Chrysler follows thru with production vehicles or not, this announcement itself serves as an endorsement of the Volt design!*
*After all, the best location for a Burger King is close to a McDonald’s!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:02 am
Good luck to Chrysler and any other automaker who wants to develop a Volt like vehicle. Even those building strictly electric vehicles. The more we reduce our dependence on foreign oil, the better off we will be. Drill now, Drill everywhere, Pay less. That’s the way I feel about it.
So, Ford, what are you waiting on?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:13 am
N Riley #99:
Ford is producing a Diesel hybrid Fiesta for Europe next year. I don’t recall all the particulars offhand, but I do recall the mpg being north of 65. it is based on their Rflex system
hhttp://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/forget_the_mustang_check_out_the_reflex_diesel_hybrid_vehicle.htm
The reason for not releasing it in the US is that they don’t believe Americans would buy Diesel.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:17 am
>> However, when it comes to electric cars available in the next few years, the Prius design has some definite limitations, which I’ve spelled out previously. My hope is that Toyota will recognize these limitations and build a car that competes better with the Volt.
Please spell it out again, prior to this has been somewhat vague and very hard to find afterward.
Any so-called “limitations” eluded to certainly don’t fall in the “high-volume & mid-priced” category.
What market is Volt actually targeting? And when?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 am
john1701a #102:
Why does anyone think that a $20,000-$30,000 Prius and a Volt at somewhere north of $40,000, are competing for the same market?
It’s like comparing a Malibu to a Mercedes C series (at least on price). It doesn’t make any sense. Particularly if you can’t afford the Mercedes.
This is what I mean by putting your pom poms down and reassessing. People are acting like the Volt is still priced at $25,000.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
A lot of people here say the Volt has a disadvantage over the Prius because it only seats 4. Does the Prius have seatbelts for 3 back seat passengers? Myself and 2 friends stood behind a Prius last week. The 3 of us, shoulder to shoulder were wider than that car on the OUTSIDE. The Prius may be marketed as a 5 passgenger car but believe me, its not. The Prius is an extremely narrow vehicle. Lets face it, 3 adults in the back of a Cadillac is a tight fit.
I’m not cutting down the Prius, it’s the coolest tech car on the road that you can actually buy, but I wourld rather ride on the hood than in the back seat with 2 other people……
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I would take Chrysler’s claims for future green Jeep Wranglers much more seriously, if they sold their current greener Diesel Wranglers in the US that they already sell overseas.
Why would I believe that Chrysler would sink millions upon millions of dollars into a vapor-ware E-REV Wrangler, when they won’t sink enough money into their current Diesel Wranglers that they already have to sell them here in the States?
I don’t believe a word of it.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Consider, please, that in their haste to get a “me too” system out the door, Chrysler could end up giving the EREV a black eye, regardless of manufacturer.
Back in the ’70s, the VW Rabbit was “THE” thing, and Chrysler set out to copy it: the result was the disasterous Plymouth Horizon / Dodge Omni. Six safety-related recalls the first two years, mixed metric and english fasteners on the same car, back doors that closed never to reopen were among the low-lights.
These were almost the first American cars with the now-standard transverse engine, FWD design. This did reflect the future of automobiles, but I know a lot of folks who had a hard time giving that design a second chance, years later (and only when offered by other manufacturers, with few “north-south” RWD options left).
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Jerry @98
“First, Toyota has a hybrid that is a great success. GM has a PR campaign that has yet to produce anything.”
Do you really still believe this is just a PR campaign, so all the money they have spent on r&d, all the publicity they have generated (which would quickly turn bad if the volt wasn’t produced), and claiming that the Volt is the car “for gm’s next 100 years”. Is all just to get green points, and a bailout they would of gotten without the Volt.
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“Toyota is financially above water, GM is below and sinking.”
I think it’s been pretty well documented as to why GM is not profiting like toyota, it ain’t for a lack of selling vehicles which they have done more of since Toyota’s inception.
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“That is sad. You need to take the blinkers off.”
There you go with the passive aggressive thing again.
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“When the Volt first came out I was very excited…. Now what do we have (and we are not even at the end of the R&D period)? A car that accelerates like a slug, that looks like every other car, is prohibitively priced for many, and is slated for only limited production in the first two-three years.
I don’t think 8 second car with unlimited torque is a slug, surely faster than the prius. Looks like every other car isn’t an accurate statement, its your opinion, looks similar to other car bodies is accurate. Most cars look alot like the others in their class, with aero advancements its become obvious to makers that certain things are neccesary which dictate some of the cars body lines.
I don’t think a $37,000 car (my guess) with a $7000 dollar tax credit is to much. Figuring you pay 23-25k for an accord and get 1/4 the fuel savings, and 1/4 of the technology. In my case the extra 7-10K i spent extra. I will recoup in fuel savings will come in the first 5-7 years.
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“And yea, I am frustrated.”
I can tell, so your sticking around to rain on everyone elses parade because the Volt dosen’t fit your origional vision? The car your describing was a concept, i’ve been here long enough to remember when we were fighting just to make sure it made it to production!
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“apparently oblivious to how the metamorphosis of the Volt would actually effect its viability and its probable effect on the market. ”
Not where i live, a 40K car/suv is the norm. Myself and a majority of others (based on a recent pole) that come here want to buy the volt for it’s drivetrain, not for it’s looks. Since the drivetrain hasn’t changed at all really i’m happy. As far as price point in retrospect i think believing GM’s origional statement of around 25K was where i was silly. You can barely get an accord for 25K, and there about as generic as it gets, i expected revolutionary for “around 25K”.
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“As the Volt concept currently exists, I honestly do not believe it will sell.”
I think that statement is completely wrong, and most of us normal people will be lucky to get one by late 2011 because of demand & dealer markup.
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” The Mercedes crowd can afford $5-$6/gal gas.”
” Gas prices alone won’t convert people with money to be green. They are going to make a cost/benefit calculation”
So which is it they can afford it, or they need to do a cost/benefit calculation?
Personally i think alot of people have lots of different reasons for buying the Volt. Poor people want to save money, rich people want to save the enviroment, both want to save america
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“Assuming the Volt even comes available to you, odds are most of you cheering for it will never be able to afford it.”
I won’t even begin to try to understand how you came up with that.
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“Folks when GM moves the goal posts ”
I do like the football reference though.
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So in summary:
Your not even sure the Volt isn’t vaporware.
Your positive Toyota is twice the car company GM is.
You think the production version compared to the concept is horrible.
You think the Volt “if produced” won’t sell for various reasons.
You think the price point is to high, and will out price most of the country.
Okay got it.
Which leads me to 2 conclusions. you think stomping your feet on this board will change any of that. Or your pissed “your Volt” isn’t what your going to get so your going to spew hate all over this board to make yourself feel better.
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“Why does anyone think that a $20,000-$30,000 Prius and a Volt at somewhere north of $40,000, are competing for the same market?”
Probably because Prius is the current king of fuel economy, and the Volt want’s that title.
Probably because the prius is like 28K with the normal options, and after tax credits the Volt will be like 30-32K. If you factor in total cost of ownership including maintenance, over say 5 years depending on your daily mileage needs (less than say 50) you can easily make the argument the Volt is cheaper.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
ELECTRIC RANGER ROVER ..
A brand new electric drivetrain is being worked up, which is said to allow up to 200 miles of range on electricity alone for the Liberty Range Rover. Pricing starts at £95,000, and for £125,000, the company can fit the Landie with a range-extending generator, which makes the machine similar in concept to the much-hyped Chevy Volt.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Talk, Talk and more Talk. A lot said but not much worth the time to read. I’m ready for the Volt.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:10 pm
N Riely @ 109
“Talk, Talk and more Talk. A lot said but not much worth the time to read. I’m ready for the Volt.”
Agreed!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
#107 JonP
Another excellent response!
I especially like this part:
“Probably because the prius is like 28K with the normal options, and after tax credits the Volt will be like 30-32K. If you factor in total cost of ownership including maintenance, over say 5 years depending on your daily mileage needs (less than say 50) you can easily make the argument the Volt is cheaper.”
It certainly does get difficult to make advances on this forum when we constantly have to take two steps backwards to educate the uninformed.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Seedy wrote:
First of all it’s not a E Flex Drive System period. The chevrolet Volt will be in production period. There in talk with the battery manufacture, they have not sign a contract with them. Gm will most likely will get the contract
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1. What does this mean?
2 What are you on?
3. Can I get some?
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September 23rd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
BillR
Thank you for the support!
I remember this site use to be a lot more positive, now we are overran by anti-gm guys of every stripe. GM sucks, GM’s gonna go bankrupt, GM is crap compared to Toyota, GM is only making the Volt to get a bailout……..
When this site started we just wanted to get the Volt into production! We accomplished that, we proved people were interested. Alot of the same guys that helped us get there, are now the same guys that spend days arguing/complaining about the silliest shit.
Maybe its me but it seems like in the beginning we were a bunch of guys that just wanted an electric car, we all had our reasons why, but we all wanted it. Most of us would of taken a bathtub with 4 wheels (exaggeration) we were so desperate for any car with an electric drive.
Maybe it’s the lack of new information, but in all honesty i’m not so sure. We just got the first official look at the production volt and by the next day were back to attacking each other over what looked better the production or concept as if it even mattered. As if the concept was anything other than a brainstorm with no thought of practicality.
I tried to take a stand against one of them anti-gm er’s early on, but i got blown out by him and 3-4 of his buddies pretty quickly. Now the board is filled with a dozen of them.
I’m #3798 on the wait list, and i’ve been following this site everyday since then, i was at voltnation, and i’ve probably talked the Volt to death with my friends, family, and co-workers. The forums use to be informative, now there a breeding ground for guys here for all the wrong reasons.
I just don’t understand why guys that don’t support GM or the Volt would come here routinely? As if telling us over and over how great the prius/toyota is, or how much longer till GM goes chapter 11 there adding to the community.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I see people comparing the Prius and the Volt again, price performance, etc. I say it is an unfair comparison. Compare the Prius plug in version and the Volt (When they are both on the market, and both have been tested by the large car magazines). At this point its all speculation, Volt this Prius that. The Prius will save you gas, the Volt, if it performs as designed, will save you a LOT of gas but you will pay up front for the extra battery capacity. Depending on your driving habits one car or the other may be better for you.
Maybe other hybrid vehicles would work for you too. If you have a boat or a camper or a construction trailer to haul around, a Tahoe Hybrid or Durango Hybrid are your choices.
If you’re dirt poor (like me!) buying an 800 dollar car and spending a lot on gas may be the most financially effective way to get around.
Regardless, over the next 20 to 30 years, there will be a lot of electric and semi electric cars that fill a whole bunch of needs but making an informed choice will be more difficult. The buyer will have to weigh the added expense vs. battery capacity, miles driven per day, etc. Even things like higher taxes on conventional vehicles (Its coming believe me), and whether you live in an old apartment building and have no place to plug a car in.
Murphy will play a big role. A person will carefully caluclate their distance from work, chose an apartment with a metered electric outlet at their assigned parking place and buy the most appropriate vehicle for their needs. Then and only then the company they work for will be bought out and their new office will be another 50 miles away! (Happened to me 3 times.)
And if you are a young man, you will chose the car most likely to get you chicks, regardless of the cost and to hell with the environment!
I have faith in human nature!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 pm
The comparisons really don’t make sense. But since some continue to insist…
$40,000 vehicle price plus 7 percent tax is $42,800. A 5-year loan at 6 percent interest calculates to a $49,646 total, which is a montly payment of $827.
$22,500 vehicle price plus 7 percent tax is $24,075. A 5-year loan at 6 percent interest calculates to a $27,926 total, which is a montly payment of $465.
The cost of driving 15,000 miles per year with the current 48 MPG real-world average at $4 per gallon comes to $1,205, which is a per-month amount of $104.
The $465 plus $104 is $569, which leaves a difference from $827 of $258.
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How are you going to convince the typical consumer to pay an extra $258 per month, plus whatever gas & electricity Volt uses.
Heck, even if the owner qualifies for a full tax-credit (no AMT penalty), that would only drop the expense by $125 per month to $133 more than Prius. Of course, the Prius available will deliver an efficiency improvement, maybe 4 MPG real-world average. That’s a monthly improvement of $8, bringing the Volt disadvantage to $141, plus gas & electricity.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 pm
John1701a @115
That is a good breakdown, but 2 problems with it. Where can you buy a prius for $22,500. Please don’t give me the starting at stuff either. Because if we are talking about the base line prius, then the extra $133 maybe worth the technology/amenity features alone.
Also you haven’t (which is hard to do) factored in the reduced maintenance cost over a 5 year period. But anyway i’ll try with some simple maintenance items.
Oil change: assuming 15k miles
Volt 1 per year @ 30.00 bucks = 30.00
Prius 5 per year @ 30.00 bucks = 150.00 Savings of $600 or $10/month
Full tune up @30K (plugs/wires/coolant/air filter/)
Volt None
Prius 1 @ (hard to gauge but) $400 Savings of $400 or $7 a month
Full tune up @60 (plugs/wires/coolant/air filter/ timing belt/battery/trans fluid/)
Volt None
Prius 1 @ (hard to gauge but) $1000.00 Savings of $1000.00 or $17 a month
Do you see where i’m going here………. And that’s without a failure of all the prius’s additional moving parts.
Nobody is saying a Volt would be priced cheaper sale price than a Prius (why would it be it’s twice the car). But if your mileage needs are less than 40 a day, or 80 with work charge, then you calculate in the added maintenance savings it’s close to say the least, alot closer than your numbers show, for alot more car.
Plus for me its more realistic if i extropolate it out over 10 years since if i’m paying 32K i’ll be driving it that long. Which only compounds my point because now your talking about a Prius with a 150K miles.
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:18 am
>> Also you haven’t (which is hard to do) factored in the reduced maintenance cost over a 5 year period.
It’s not hard. Many have owned a Prius for 5 years now, including me… Your guesses were way off.
Oil changes every 3,000 miles is just plain nonsense. No one with a hybrid does it that often. Heck, the automaker suggested interval is 5,000 and many owners wait until 7,500 since oil is used so lightly.
You quoted 30K service from dealer at $400. It was actually just $247.77 for me.
You quoted 60K service from dealer at $1000. It was actually just $114.08 for me.
There’s a standard 90K service too, but that was only $159.97 for me.
Also, you never provided any gas or electricity numbers for Volt… which is clearly going to be a difficult sell for the mainstream. And obviously, Volt will require some standard maintenance by 60K. That “none” is quite unrealistic. Use these opportunities as practice. First round didn’t go so well…
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September 24th, 2008 at 8:57 am
#37 Gary “You could even argue that Toyota copied the Prius design from GM. Do a Google Image search for “GM Precept”. I have to admit that the Prius looks better, though.”
Upon perusal of the 1997 GM Precept, I’d still have to say that the Prius is extremely groundbreaking – due to three factors: A) The Prius, at great financial risk, was actually commercially marketed-and hugely successfully at that. B) The Precept concept was a very forward-thinking science project which never saw much more than a photo studio or a GM test track. C) My main point regarding the significance and even superior market penetration versus the Volt ( and the Precept concept) is utility. The Precept clearly is chock-full of drive gear and, even with it’s huge rear overhang, doesn’t represent the clever cab-over, short hood, short f/r overhang packaging the Prius does.
After owning a Prius now for one year, it still often surprises me the people and stuff I can carry in it, that it’s extremely close to the inside measurements of an ICE Camry, and with it’s hatchback and folding seats-even more useful.
The upcoming Honda Insight hybrid four door, while not a “full hybrid” is indicative of the Prius design success—it’s nearly a dead-ringer for the Toyota!
Again I’ll say—Volt vs. Prius. The Volt is a proof-of-concept machine that seats four, with limited utility. Yes, it’s incredible if an actual 40 miles can be obtained sans foreign oil. Still, it falls short of the potential market success of a Prius due to it’s intrinsic shortcomings in practicality.
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September 24th, 2008 at 9:55 am
How about an electric Crossfire… Hummm….
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September 27th, 2008 at 4:56 am
hi all,
Attended the Santa Monica Expo yesterday and saw the Volt. Took 32 photos and really enjoyed talking with the GM staff and onlookers. If the Volt comes to your area, have a look. The up close, in person, view does it good.
Sorry, the photos won’t post with this comment. I get a “spam message”.
no plug =D~ no sale
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I am glad I had a chance to read your post, if you have more information on cheap airfare elsewhere let me know or post it here.
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