Chevy Volt and the Electric Grid: Drive 15,000 Miles for $73

September 19th, 2008 | Posted in: Grid

At the Centennial, we heard a presentation from Mark DuVall of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) who discussed the relationship between the Volt and the power grid. Also presenting were GMs energy director Brita Gross and Volt vehicle line executive Frank Weber.

If was pointed out that daily charging of the Chevy Volt will increase the typical single family home electric usage by about 25%. The electric draw is less than that of a refrigerator/freezer or central air conditioning system.

If one takes peak charging rates of 80 cents/day, to drive 15,000 miles/year will work out to around $292 in total fuel costs. At off peak rates from ¼ to ½ of that it is possible to drive 15,000 miles per year for $73.

Furthermore the electric grid has ample capacity to handle this car. In fact Mr. Duvall stated that 10 million E-REVs will use less than 1% of the US electric grids total capacity.

And to answer one of the questions asked on this site, Version I of the Volt will not require data exchange to or from the utility company for charging.

Also aside from the financial benefits, there are obviously tremendous benefits to the country of not having to use imported fossil fuels, but being able to drive using the diverse portfolio of energy sources, coal, nuclear, natural gas, and renewables that our electric grid is powered through.

Popularity: 3% [?]

(17 votes, average: 4.76 out of 5)

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Posted by: Lyle

208 Responses to “Chevy Volt and the Electric Grid: Drive 15,000 Miles for $73”

nuclearboy Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:27 am

This is great. We saw from one of the interior shots that the display was asking for what time the charging should begin. GM has it all setup for time of use meters to minimize charging costs. We have the time of use meters in Howard County, MD. Being able to save more $$ makes the calculation better on weather the Volt is worth the extra $$ over something like the Cruze.

[Reply]
Pedro Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:30 am

I’m still aprehensive about the way people who live in apartments will re-charge the car. Cus the garages of buidings have plugs but they are for all to use…
How do you think in the future this problem will be fixed?

[Reply]
Bearclaw Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:33 am

Moonshot #1 Chevy Volt

Moonshot #2 Al Gore’s Plan

It is time. http://www.wecansolveit.org/

[Reply]
Rashiid Amul Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:35 am

From article:
Version I of the Volt will not require data exchange to or from the utility company for charging.

———
Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?

[Reply]
nuclearboy Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:38 am

I don’t think most will drive 15K miles for $73 but just for fun, here is the gas cost for 15K miles driven for various mpg ratings and gas costs.

mpg gal $3 gas $4 gas $5gas
20 750 2250 3000 3750
30 500 1500 2000 2500
40 375 1125 1500 1875
50 300 900 1200 1500

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:38 am

I’d like to know what the Amp charge rate will be for charging. That can help compute out the cost to charge the car. I’m not someone who trusts the manufacturer for the costs of usage - especially in an area where we have high electric rates (PECO in SE PA). We pay about .13-14/kwh total. So, a one-hour charge at 10A for 120v would be $1.50 or so. I’m sure there will be lots of cost calculators available to figure this stuff out. Also, you will be paying more for deeper charging if you live in a hilly area vs. a flat area.

I’m going to shop for a Volt or similar model in about 2012. But I’m always someone who now believes that saving money is best done by putting off the purchase of a new car rather than jumping on the new technology.

[Reply]
Lunoir Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:44 am

Excellent… I live in a place where electricity is at the cheapest and “greenest” So gone will be any bad feeling about driving a car around… Both financially, economically and environmentally…. We just leave the traffic, but I don’t mind getting in a traffic jam full of volt… Less noisy and smelly.

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

[Reply]
THOM Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:54 am

Sweet…..i could drive my car for a full year on less electricity than my home AC unit uses in 2 months??

Cmon..get serious!

[Reply]
Jason J Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:00 am

John,

A full volt charge is 8KWh (since you only use 8 of the 16kwh). So at $.13/kwh the cost is 8 x .14= $1.04. At $.14/kwh the cost is $1.12. I think that they said in one of the articles that it will take 6 hours to recharge on standard 115VAC so 8kwh or 8000wh will draw 1333 w/h so at 115VAC then 1333/115 = 11.6Amps.

[Reply]
TOM M Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:01 am

Please do not forget the factor that those of us that have solar will not have these costs. If we are already amortized out for the cost of our solar units, the cost is going to very minimal. Here in South Texas solar is a no brain er. 300 plus days of sunshine a year.

God Bless America,

Tom

[Reply]
Byron Alexander Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:01 am

First time to check out the Volt. i live in a part of the country where the ac is lovingly referred to as “the life support system.” Heated seats are basically just a joke; turn it on when the spouse isn’t looking to give a little red a**. The ac is used year-round. How does using the ac impact the Volt?

[Reply]
Joe Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:09 am

Rashiid Amul Says:@4

Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?

***************************************************************************

With todays technology it could be possible to charged your Volt at any 120v outlet and have the amount of the electricity used, billed to your account. Of course, anyone with a Volt who want to go that route would need to have an account already setup for this.
Wouldn’t that be wonderful if you could take a trip to a relative, for example, and plug-in into the relative’s outlet w/o worrying who pays the electric bill for the charge?

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:13 am

“And to answer one of the questions asked on this site, Version I of the Volt will not require data exchange to or from the utility company for charging.”
——————

Glad to know. Thank you.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:17 am

#2 Pedro asks: “I’m still aprehensive about the way people who live in apartments will re-charge the car. Cus the garages of buidings have plugs but they are for all to use…
How do you think in the future this problem will be fixed?”
—————————————-
The core fix will be people in the apartments who are good tenants going to the apartment management and asking how to plug in their car. The management will find a way, or the tenants will move. Management does not want to lose good tenants over a minor issue.
Similarly, provision for charging will be an attractor for new tenants.

[Reply]
NZDavid Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:20 am

I pay a flat rate of 20.71 cents per KWh so 8 * 365 * 20.71 = $604.73 per year. At 50 mpg it would cost me $1687.76 for gasoline for the same mileage, at CURRENT prices!

Off for a holiday, see everyone in a week’s time.

NO plug, NO sale
LJGTVWOTR

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:21 am

#4 Rashiid Amul asks “Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?”
——————————————————-
An earlier thread quoted someone from GM (Mr Lutz?) as suggesting the car could automatically exchange data with the utility so as to avoid charging under extreme conditions, or to determine when to charge at the best rates. It was ambiguous as to whether data exchange would be an alternative or a requirement. So it is great that Lyle clarified that it is an alternative.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:24 am

#6 John asks about the amp charge rates.
————————-
We don’t know, but maybe 12 amperes. A better way to make good estimates is from the kwh required by the battery. The battery is 16 kwh. A normal full recharge is about 8 kwh.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:29 am

11 Byron asks ” How does using the ac impact the Volt?”
——————————————-
GM has said that special attention is being given to all the accessories so that minimal power is used. That said, obviously the ac will use power from somewhere. One unusual possibiity is that initial cool-down may occur while the Volt is parked and drawing power from the electrical grid. Thereafter the car has to draw power from its own sources, but the question is, how much?

[Reply]
TOM M Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:32 am

As the progression of the VOLT and all electric vehicles goes, so goes new ideas for charging you rig. There will be charging stations at apartments, work places and service stations where you can charge you car. Our office building is going to offer charging during the day as part of our rent.I would think that if you are located in a area of density for parking lots this would be a great opportunity for new revenue in your area. I even envision mobile charging stations as a new business opportunity.
The opportunities are endless. This is what makes America GREAT !!

Tom

[Reply]
joe obrien Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:33 am

It’ll be even cheaper for me since I’ll plug in 80% of the time I’m at work. Then my company can pay to charge my car.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:38 am

#6 John said “We pay about .13-14/kwh total. So, a one-hour charge at 10A for 120v would be $1.50 or so.”
—————————————-
Maybe 10A at 120v = 1200 watts = 1.200 kilowatts for an hour.
At 14 cents per kwh the charge is less than 14 cents times 1.2 which is about 17 cents.

So perhaps in your original calculation there was no division by 1000 to convert from watts to kilowatts, making the price seem to be 10 times more than it really will be With the conversion to kilowatts included, the result is about the same as Jason in #9, so I think that approximately 17 cents is the right answer.

It’s going to be great. NPNS. LJGTVWOTR.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:41 am

Is there a picture or video that clearly shows the plug and the place on the Volt where it is plugged in?

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:43 am

I’m still aprehensive about the way people who live in apartments will re-charge the car. Cus the garages of buidings have plugs but they are for all to use…
How do you think in the future this problem will be fixed?
—————————————————————————————————————–
I have to agree with you here, I have said the exact same thing. I really think there is going to be a serious crisis with people stealing electricity from outlets that are outdoors. This is going to be something that if not addressed soon, could turn into a huge disaster.

[Reply]
TOM M Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:52 am

#23

This is a Dear John Letter !

There should be no problem with this factor because they already have locking systems for outdoor outlets. Now if this really becomes a problem there is a little thing called a breaker that can be tripped to shut off juice to the outside box.These are just two ways and believe me there will be many more options available to the building owners.

Tom

[Reply]
Tim Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:04 am

I wish these presentations were filmed and posted on the web so that we could watch them from home.

[Reply]
Bearclaw Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:05 am

#22 RB Says:

Is there a picture or video that clearly shows the plug and the place on the Volt where it is plugged in?

I saw a video of the plug on GM’s web site and it looked like the volt insignia moved forward in front of the mirror and they put a plug in that was a small open angled L shape. I’m hoping there is going to be a way to lock the cord to the car so it doesn’t get stolen.

[Reply]
MarkFLL Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:07 am

#4 Rashiid Amul asks “Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?”
——————————————————-

Maybe it could also be used to pay road tax? After all, if you’re not filling up all the time, how else would they calculate your usage. I’m sure they’re already trying to figure out that one!

[Reply]
kent beuchert Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:12 am

It’s close enough for govt work to call our country’s
generating capacity as 1 million megawatts. Thus 24
million megawatthours could conceivably be produced
daily. 10 million Volts that all need a complete recharge
every day would require 80 million kilowatthours, or
80,000 megawatthours, which is 1/3rd of 1 percent of
total capacity. An entire US fleet of 250 million
Volts would roughly require 25 times 1/3rd of 1 percent, or
around 8 to 9 percent of total capacity. Of course, there is never
a time when all of the country’s capacity is online at the same time,
so that the percentage of available generating capacity would
obviously be higher.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:18 am

To Tom:

Yes I agree with you. I just want to make sure everyone is considering this and has a plan and is aware…before it becomes a problem.

What about apartments? Yes they can make a outlet outside for the cars, but there is going to need to be some type of code or something to access the outlet. I know at my apartment there are no assigned parking spots so you would need multiple points of access.

Also I go to school and have to park on the street, or have also parked using a parking pass at other apartments. I know for a fact that these slumlords on college campuses will not include outlets. However if this car costs 30-40K most kids won’t have this car anyway…

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea of a plug in hybrid and hope that more will be produced. Just being the devil’s advocate.

[Reply]
J. Oliver Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:20 am

What I fail to understand is why GM did not release the car firstly to the European market. We pay something like 10 US dollars per gallon + the crash tests are easier.

[Reply]
John C. Briggs Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:22 am

BS alert

“The car will cost “less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee” to recharge, and use less electricity annually than a refrigerator.”

Refrigerator 448KWH/year
Chevy Volt 2920KWH/year

The Volt takes 6X as much electricity as my refrigerator.

THE MATH

The Volt has a 16KWH battery pack but can only use 8KWH to keep it in the range of 30% to 80% state of charge.

8 KWH/day * 365 days/year = 2920 KWH/year

Since this is supposed to be 40 miles per day it is

40 miles/day * 365 days/year = 14,600 miles/year

This is a little higher than the 12,000 miles/year that the average American uses. So if we adjust this to 12,000 miles this is still

2400 KWH/year or 5.4× the refrigerator

The cost of electricity is $0.19/kwh or

2400 KWH/year * $0.19/KWH = $456/year

This works out to be $1.24 per day. So I will give them the “cup of coffee” story as TRUE, but the refrigerator story is a big FALSE.

[Reply]
Len Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:23 am

The big rigs are what cause the road damage. They should really pay for the maintenance.

The number of electric vehicles will be small for awhile, road tax from electric vehicles is a problem they don’t need to worry about for at least a few years.

[Reply]
mikeinatl. Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:27 am

#27 Mark

You raise a very important point about Volt-type cars that I had not yet considered.

Much of road expense is paid via taxes on gasoline.
It amounts to billions of dollars per year. If electric cars become the norm, governments must find a new way to tax us for roads.

I assume it would be some sort of tax by miles driven.

Has this ever been discussed in previous threads?

[Reply]
Firefly Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:29 am

Where I live, electricity costs $0.12/per KwH during peak times and $.0.08 @ night. So using basic calculation, a Volt @ 40 miles per day every day will only add $21.60 to my monthly utility bill. And don’t let me add solar panels to my home. Then the costs will be far less. Presumably, the only costs I will have are the occasional excursion and the cost of fueling it after going to Florida to get it.

By the way, Lyle. Has GM confirmed the eventual launch sites/dealerships for the Volt yet? Just curious. I hope that Florida will definitely be an initial sale point. I’d still fly to Florida to get it.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:32 am

#27 mark and #33 mikeinatl

This is a very good point. I think in the short term it makes sense to reward people who go with a plug in hybrid, by offering no taxes (or a small amount). However once most of the driving population is driving plug in hybrids the likely scenario is that electricity will be taxed higher. Definitely something that needs to be considered.

However with a 40 mile range I guarantee that people will still be using plenty of gasoline. Just hopefully ethanol or something like that.

[Reply]
Math Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:38 am

Just going to throw it out there that 15,000 / 40 = 375…. 10 more days than there are in a year….

[Reply]
ThomC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:48 am

I live in north Houston. I got my electric power back several days ago, but many of my neighbors have not. Being serinaded by gasoline generators 24/7 got me thinking about how the “cheap” electric car is so very dependent on an established electric power infrastructure. While a hurricane is an infrequent event (at least I very much hope so… one is more than enough) other factors can cause the electric power infrastructure to become unreliable. Anyone here remember the rolling brown-outs southern California endured in the late ’90s?

The impending demise of the internal combustion engine has been greatly exagerated. As alternative fuels are developed and ICEs are designed to burn those fuels, the life expectancy of ICEs will continue to extend.

As far as petroleum-based fuels go, they will continue to be used en-mass simply because the support infrastructure is in place and the infrastructure for (most) anything else is going to be prohibitively expensive (e.g. hydrogen).

To borrow a phrase from James Carville, “It’s the infrastructure, stupid“… The Volt is the right car at the right time because it effectively leverages all the major existing infrastructures: electric and petroleum

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 8:54 am

Sorry, but this is badly flawed.

I can do math, total power usage for 15,000 miles is 375 charges @ 8kW = 3000kW (provided of course you get 100% transfer of power from grid to car…which is also impossible)

3000kW /$73 = 2.4 cents kW, out the door…bottom line, all fees, charges, taxes in. Nobody pays that…nobody.

I defy any person any in the entire world to show me a electricity bill for $.024/kWh bottom line, for even for ONE MINUTE of off-peak pricing (that isn’t dated 1965, lol…for this year)
————–
But if we are going to go so far out on the branch that we assume you could get these rates -AND- it is also possible to drive exactly 40 miles per day…it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 375 charges in a year offpeak (15,000/40 = 375) …you’d need 10 days charging for 16 hours….which would be ‘on peak’ and that would increase your yearly ‘theoretical’ budget alone by 11%.
———-
Side note: This argument actually weakens reasoning for solar expansion…or why the heck would anyone have solar panels or roof panels at all?

I am on solar and the gov’t pays me .42/kW to produce it. My 6kW system cost me about $28,000 (no rebates in Canada, but they buy it back at a great price).

If I was trying to use solar to offset energy prices at 2.4cents per kW, I would have to produce 1,116,666kW… I produce about 25kW on a average day, so it would take me 44,666 days to get payback…or 122 years.
———-
Lets use this thread’s math to see how viable car mounted solar roof panels would be! It would take a roof panel about 2 weeks in a perfect word, out in the sun, to achieve a full charge (as per Lutz on Colbert)…so it would give you 26 charges a year.

Under the math stated in this article 26 charges would be about 7% of your yearly need, or $5.11 worth of ‘off-peak’ energy. I’m guessing the ’solar roof’ option would be around $3,000, (seeing how they charge you almost a thousand to just cut a hole in your roof right now). Payback on one of those? 587 years.

[Reply]
Jackson Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:02 am

People in blackouts with pure electric vehicles would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle with no range-extender.

Lyle, will it be possible to use the Volt’s range extender as a stationary emergency generator?

I think we may find that ThomC is correct about the longevity of Internal Combustion; we may find that the short-range electric / long-range gas model will persist for a great many years.

The EREV’s battery is a “toe in the door” for other things, like fast-charge stations and improved battery chemistry, to happen; but they will take years: years during which the EREV can continue to thrive, pretty much unchanged.

How to tax electric car use has been discussed here often. It’s certainly possible, with GPS and on-board communications (”OnStar”) to create a by-mile taxation structure; one which could also be based on vehicle weight (in a future with more than one size of EREV or BEV on the roads), and maybe even by peak and off-peak traffic times.

However, I tend to like less, rather than more Government involvement in my life, and I’m not really looking forward to such a system. This sort of issue may make used Volt 1s even more valuable, as being ‘grandfathered in’ to the previous age; exempt from any future data-communications/taxation scheme by the 2012 state of their technology.

[Reply]
Jackson Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:14 am

Oops, too late to edit:

By “stationary generator,” I mean park the Volt, press a button, attach a special wire to the charging port (or somewhere else), and plug in your fridge and a couple of lamps.

[Reply]
Ronald Kelley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:19 am

if most of the roof on the Volt was covered with solor cells, would that really be the thing to do buy because it is going to be an option???

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:19 am

I have not heard it discussed, so I will ask the question. Does the Volt have a standard car battery? The type now used to crank a vehicle and power accessories. Just curious. I hope it does not. I hope the Li Ion battery is used to do the things the old battery used to do. That would be one more point in favor of the Volt in my opinion. Keeping a lead acid battery going and replacing it every couple or three years has always been a pain in the rear. Plus, it always dies a the most inopportune time.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:20 am

#37 ThomC,

Well said. I will never buy a pure EV. E-REVs (a.k.a. series hybrids or REEVs) are the way to go.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:23 am

#42

The volt will most likely be lithium ion. There is no way they will use a lead acid battery, even the prius uses a nickel metal hydride

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:26 am

#43

Agreed. It’s totally impracticable. People want freedom to be able to drive. That’s like saying you can fill up your tank with gas, drive 300 miles and then you have to wait for 6 hours to fill up again. It would never take off, ever.

[Reply]
DanKuda Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:27 am

#44 Read #42 again. I think that’s a great question.

[Reply]
Mike-o-Matic Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:33 am

@4 Rashiid and 12 Joe:

(quoting Joe)…
>> Wouldn’t that be wonderful if you could take a trip to a relative,
>> for example, and plug-in into the relative’s outlet w/o worrying who
>> pays the electric bill for the charge

There will be things both good and bad about future “smart power” data exchange systems. For example, you cited a good thing — a convenience factor.

On the other side of the coin, there’s the “government tracking my mileage and charging for road taxes” angle, the counterpart to road maintenance taxes built into the price of a gallon of gas. But, to be fair, the Volt will wear out a road as fast as any other car its size and weight, so everybody should pay up (equally!).

Now to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist: My concerns with “data-exchange charging capabilities” are that it be EQUITABLE and PRIVATE. I don’t want the government probing my driving habits (other than raw mileage), and I also wouldn’t want to pay unfairly higher taxes just because I’m using electrons, not gas. Anytime you have data logging and exchange going on, there’s good cause for vigilance. Open protocols for such data exchange would be nothing short of mandatory, IMO.

Anyway, food for thought.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:34 am

# 38

I have to agree with you about the 2.4 cents for a kWh. I pay about 5.6 kWh.

I found this on Texas electricity:
(off peak/on peak)
Centerpoint (Houston) Area: 11.95 / 14.2 ¢
TNMP Service Area: 11.55 / 13.79 ¢

obviously they are not cutting their electricity rates in half for off peak. The average is around 10 cents, so this is totally impracticable, even if a small percentage could achieve this rate.

Still…It would cost 1700 dollars with gas if gas costs $3.50 and you get 30 mpg and drive 14,600 miles a year. So basically compare that to the $300 you would spend annually with the volt (assuming all short drives) it’s quite a good deal.

Here’s a site that gives averages (outdated I know)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:40 am

#46

I see the real question. Yeah there is no need for a normal lead acid battery. You don’t need to crank the engine with a starter anymore. The prius starts with the press of a button and goes automatically into electric mode or kicks it into gas mode. But no starter or anything. So yes I agree, no more replacing batteries or jump starting your car.

[Reply]
Jerome Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:41 am

I’d be attracted to the solar panel roof option for two reasons (price dependent of course).

1. I live in AZ and it sounds like the solar panels could be used to keep the car cool while it is parked. A great option for desert dwellers. Conversely maybe it could keep cars warm in cold climes?
2. I think it would have a “cool” factor….and that’s a lot of what cars are all about, otherwise we’d all be driving Prius-look-a-likes that go 0-60 in 15 seconds.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:51 am

Jackson Says: “Lyle, will it be possible to use the Volt’s range extender as a stationary emergency generator?”
————————————————————————————
I’ve been asking about this since last summer and haven’t heard anything. Note that this would be useful for a lot of things, like:
• construction
• camping
• outdoor concerts
• remote locations
• convenience outlets
• power outages
• etc.

Note that you can use a regular car for this. For less than $200 you can buy a 1500 watt inverter, hook it up to your car battery terminals, and then idle the car as necessary to keep the battery from draining.

But you can’t do this with the Volt. The Volt’s battery is over 300 volts. There are no inverters available for this voltage. Even if there was, the voltage is so high that there would be safety issues. There is a 12 volt circuit in the Volt for powering controls and indicators, but I doubt this is powerful enough to handle a typical 1500 watt home circuit.

I think GM should build 110v convenience outlets into the Volt. These should support up to 1500 watts of power. If the Volt is parked, and the battery drains below 30%, the Volt’s ICE should come on automatically, just like it does while driving. This would make the perfect gas engine generator, and it would cost very little for GM to add. Most of the functionality required is already there.

And by the way, this would be another reason to call it the Volt! Think of the marketing possibilities…

Lyle, could you ask GM about this?

[Reply]
DanKuda Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:52 am

#49

I would assume the ICE would still need a starter. Will it start off the Li Ion battery is the question.

[Reply]
Van Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:53 am

Yet another example of hype when hype is unnecessary. Lots of prior posts have rebutted the claim of 73 dollars a year for 15,000 miles. Some one observed we will not, on average, get 40 miles per 8 KWH, more like 28 to 35. Then charge rates per KWH vary but the average seems to be about 13 cents per KWH not 10 and certainly not 2.5 cents. SCE did offer an off peak billing rate around 6 cents for hybrids, but whether a rate close to that will be available in our future is unknown.

Why not stick with a simple claim, “gas” will cost about 1 dollar per equivalent “gallon” of electricity. Anyone can see that means electricity is 3 to 4 times less expensive than foreign oil. Lets say you drive an SUV that gets 15 miles per gallon, and you drive 15,000 miles per year. Easy to compare 1000 gallons at $4.00 per gallon with 1000 gallons at $1.00 per “gallon.” (Of course GM would need to build a robust E-Rev with 200 KW drive and a 32 KWH battery, to power it, but that is our future when battery cost falls.

For the Volt, we can compare the 30 MPG economy boxes. 500 gallons a year at $3.00 per gallon versus $1.00 per gallon, or $1000 dollars per year savings, assuming the range extender is never used to pile up the 15,000 miles, another unlikely probability.

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:54 am

#38 Statik

Agreed the numbers don’t work. OTOH it’s a lot less expensive than gas. I think Lutz on the Colbert Show said it was equivalent to $1.70 or $1.80 gas. Without checking I think this is more reasonable. I think that it’s also reasonable to say you can get around 250 miles for the cost of a gallon of gas. (Depending on the price of gas and your kWh of course). Something in this range.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:57 am

#50 Jerome Says: “I’d be attracted to the solar panel roof option for two reasons (price dependent of course).”
————————————————————————————–
Solar panels are expensive. For GM to make money on this, they would probably have to charge $4K or more for this option.

[Reply]
Ray Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:57 am

I for one will enjoy not spending a fortune on Gas.. I have “greened” up my home…No solar panels yet but have done the insulation,, florescent bulbs. etc.. My electric bill for July was only $ 45. I would glady spend triple that to get away from spending $250 - 400 per month on gas (that I am now spending)
I think… with the driving I do I can cut my car fuel bill done to $ 75 - 150 per month (at current prices) at an average of 40 MPC and 50 MPG after that
Any way you look at it …. a win/win situation..

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:01 am

DanKuda Says: “I would assume the ICE would still need a starter. Will it start off the Li Ion battery is the question.”
————————————————————————————-
The ICE’s electric generator is the starter. The Li/Ion battery powers it for starting the engine.

[Reply]
NASA-Todd Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Apartments - Malls – Airport Parking Lots, Work, etc.
If Series Hybrids take off I envision power charging stations looking as if you merged a marina’s power station with a parking meter. At marinas every boat slip as a plug in station. You could EASILY have a credit/debit card swipe or cash deposit that turned on a solenoid switch and allowed you to power up. You would have to make it theft proof by having it shut off the moment you unplug and no current is flowing. Those details can be worked, but it would be a fairly low cost device. And the free market would make them pop up QUICKLY if the car takes hold. On the short term for you Apartment dwellers… you may want to live on the first floor and buy a long extension cord…

I’ve said this before, but think it’s work mentioning. My TIME and inconvenience is worth something. I love the fact I may only need to stop at a gas station once every 1200 miles given my personal driving habits (30 – 50 miles per day on average). I also change my own oil and expect to do that A LOT less with a Volt.

Don’t forget Wind as a way to power your Volt. In many ways the Volt is perfect for those of you in high wind areas to consider a low cost recharge option. Some of you could drive darn near free.

One last point. All these options, even just plugging into the wall is YOUR MONEY being spent on power options within the USA ECONOMY. Whether you do Solar, Wind or your local utility, your NOT GIVING ANY MORE OF YOUR MONEY TO CRAZY NUTS OVERSEES. Thats worth something…

GO VOLT

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:03 am

#48 John

# 38

I have to agree with you about the 2.4 cents for a kWh. I pay about 5.6 kWh.

I found this on Texas electricity:
(off peak/on peak)
Centerpoint (Houston) Area: 11.95 / 14.2 ¢
TNMP Service Area: 11.55 / 13.79 ¢
——

Quick question…as obviously you have a bill handy near you, lol.

In Ontario, we have power out the whazoo, so it is pretty cheap, 5.2 cents ALL the time. However, even at that, by the time you add in all the random fees/charges/taxes it is several cents higher bottom line…more like 9 cents.

Just curious as to the difference between the ’stated’ price on the bill is…and the actual bottom line price per kW.

The comparison from electric to gas is still a great one…electricity is much better, but we have to be honest about the comparison…after all, the price you pay for gas is the bottom, BOTTOM line.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:11 am

#36 statik said “3000kW /$73 = 2.4 cents kW, out the door…bottom line, all fees, charges, taxes in. Nobody pays that…nobody.”
————————–
Agreed that the numbers in the header are fantastical.

A better round-number beginning point is $25/month.
That becomes $25/ 0.10 per kwh = 250 kwh/month, or 8 kwh/day for 31 days.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:12 am

#52

There will be no need for a starter, the batteries already have tons of power to fire the engine.

[Reply]
GXT Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:12 am

31. John C.

It is completely misleading. When they can get caught stretching the truth (lying?) so easily why should I believe their 40 Mile Range and 50MPG stats?

To be fair, I think either Lyle or the presenter screwed up the actual fact that GM was claiming (not that it is much better).

Here was the claim from GM Media:
…At a cost of about 80 cents per day (10 cents per kWh) for a full charge that will deliver up to 40 miles of electric driving, GM estimates that the Volt will be less expensive to recharge than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee. Charging the Volt about once daily will consume less electric energy annually than the average home’s refrigerator and freezer units.

Here is a post I made in response on CheersAndGears:

Like many other things about the Volt, that is misleading bordering on lying.

The average fridge from 2004 uses 465 kW/year (411 if Energy Star) and the average freezer 344kW. The Volt would use 2920kW (8kW * 365 days). That is over 400% more electricity required for the Volt than a fridge and a freezer. Even if you had appliances from 1984 the Volt would still use 30% more energy.
http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/english/page16.cfm

I guess the average home has 4 fridges and 3 freezers.

I guess this is akin to 40 Miles range… with the AC off… with the heater off… with the stereo off… only in the city.

[Reply]
cybereye Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:14 am

Statik @ 38

I was trying to find the info about the 375 charges info. I was thinking that I must have miss that info some where. We know the goal is 40 miles on a charges, but that does not have to be a round number. It seem that the car had driven a little over the 40 miles per charges. 15000 / 365 = 41.1 miles per day. Again, I’m sure that 15000 miles is pretty much as rounded as well.

[Reply]
Dale Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:16 am

If I can save $1,400 a year (#38 Still…It would cost 1700 dollars with gas if gas costs $3.50 and you get 30 mpg and drive 14,600 miles a year. So basically compare that to the $300 you would spend annually with the volt (assuming all short drives) it’s quite a good deal.) I can apply $116.67 a month to my payment

If the cost of a volt is $40,000 and a Malibu is $28,000
Loan 28,000 40,000
Interest 6 6
# of Pay 60 60
Payments $541.32 $773.31 = $231.99 additional
$231.99 less $116.67 = $115.32 a month / $1,383.88 annually

I am very willing to pay this surcharge to eliminate emmissions reduce foreign oil imports and the true cost of the Volt could be $35,000 and we could get a federal rebate furthur lowering cost

A win win win - just make the range extender Natural Gas capable and we are set

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:20 am

#54 DonC

#38 Statik

Agreed the numbers don’t work. OTOH it’s a lot less expensive than gas. I think Lutz on the Colbert Show said it was equivalent to $1.70 or $1.80 gas. Without checking I think this is more reasonable. I think that it’s also reasonable to say you can get around 250 miles for the cost of a gallon of gas. (Depending on the price of gas and your kWh of course). Something in this range.
——-

I’m with you more on those estimates. I just want to say again that electric is much better in a dollar for dollar comparison…but we should be honest and conservative in our estimates, not uber aggressive.

Most people are likely going to be paying at the very least about 12 cents bottom line per kW averaged out…even with most of them off peak. And a charge will probably be more like 9kW used allowing for losses.

I’d say $1.10 is more reasonable x 375 fills to get to 15K miles
=$412.50

/still pretty good.. a comp on the new Cruze at 40MPG/$15,000/$.30-gas miles would be $1,312.50 -OR- $900 savings

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:25 am

#64 my thoughts exactly

[Reply]
DanKuda Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Dave G & John,

Thanks, I was unaware the generator could be used to start the ICE. Sweet.

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:27 am

#4 Rashiid Amul said:

Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?
_____

I agree!

[Reply]
DC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:27 am

My problem with comparing it to a Malibu is that - to me - this is an apples to oranges comparison. Compare it to a baseline high mileage like-sized vehicle like the Corolla which is $18-20,000 or so. Now you’re talking about a $20-$25,000 difference in price - to save $1,000 a year on fuel and make a political statement.

I mean, that’s terrific and as I’ve said before, its great that all of you can afford to pay that much just to make a statement. Even though I’m still in the low 4 figures on the “waiting list” the math has not started to add up yet on this car. For me at least.

[Reply]
Gary Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:29 am

37 ThomC: I live in north Houston. I got my electric power back several days ago, but many of my neighbors have not. …other factors can cause the electric power infrastructure to become unreliable. Anyone here remember the rolling brown-outs southern California endured in the late ’90s?

That’s the beauty of the Volt being an E-REV rather than a “pure” electric vehicle. If there is no electrical outlet to be had, you just fill it with gas instead.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:32 am

#58 NASA-Todd says:

“One last point. All these options, even just plugging into the wall is YOUR MONEY being spent on power options within the USA ECONOMY. Whether you do Solar, Wind or your local utility, your NOT GIVING ANY MORE OF YOUR MONEY TO CRAZY NUTS OVERSEES. Thats worth something…

GO VOLT”

I say to that — AMEN. I totally agree. No more money to the crazies who want to either kill or enslave us.

[Reply]
Steveland Harris Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:34 am

#31 “John C Briggs”

GM’s estimates are based on $0.08/kWh, not $0.19 as you rave about. Many of us have prices significantly lower than what you claim, or even GM claims. In Memphis we pay MLGW $0.07/kWh which is fed by TVA (hydroelectric or coal or solar power). Off-peak hours dip yet lower to $0.02/kWh.

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:36 am

#47 Mike-o-Matic said:

Now to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist: My concerns with “data-exchange charging capabilities” are that it be EQUITABLE and PRIVATE. I don’t want the government probing my driving habits (other than raw mileage), and I also wouldn’t want to pay unfairly higher taxes just because I’m using electrons, not gas. Anytime you have data logging and exchange going on, there’s good cause for vigilance. Open protocols for such data exchange would be nothing short of mandatory, IMO.
_____

Once you start down this road of data exchange, it will never get stopped and eventually all the data will end up in the hands of the government, where it ain’t safe!!!

[Reply]
DK Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:39 am

I pay $0.1985/kWh in Connecticut.

[Reply]
Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:40 am

Rashiid,
Another reason for info swap is the down the road V2G plans. It’ll use the vehicle batteries to help offset peak power draws, reducing the eventual need to build more power plants and allowing the use of the vehicle to power your home in an emergency.
It’s definitely V2 or V3 Volt and many other plugins, but it’s coming!
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR! NPNS

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:43 am

We can spend all day running math calculations about the true cost of charging the Volt vs the cost of buying gas or whatever other situation. But one thing remains very clear. You will us little to no gas on most days and will not be contributing your hard earned money to the terrorist in the mid east or else where. That alone is reason enough to be willing to pay more for the Volt than the Malibu and getting by with less per mile savings than GM may have stated. It doesn’t matter what exactly GM said about cost per mile. It will be a lot less than on gasoline or diesel and the money spent will stay in the U.S. Of course, if our congress acts like they usually do they will pass a bill allowing a foreign government or company to own American electric utilities (or can they do it now?).

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:44 am

#4 Rashiid Amul Says: “Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?”
————————————————————————————-
Although I’m not a huge fan of smart charging, I can explain the potential benefits:

1) Power companies could control charging dynamically (second-by-second) to help control peak power demands.

2) In exchange for this control, Power companies would probably charge lower rates for smart charging.

3) Smart charging cars could plug in any smart charging outlet anywhere. Smart charging data would securely control billing.

4) As E-REV / EV batteries get larger, power companies may actually draw power from the cars (Vehicle to Grid, or V2G) to cover short peaks of demand. In this case, substantial discounts would be given by the power companies.

Note that all of the issues above are fairly meaningless if everyone charges during off-peak hours.

My feeling is that smart charging may happen eventually, but it makes no sense to push for it right now. Most people aren’t motivated to fix a potential problem that may, or may not exist in the future. In addition, the particular characteristics of the problem will be much better known once the potential problem becomes real. But it’s good to have research in this area so that good solutions are available if/when these issues become a real problem.

[Reply]
brad Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:46 am

Finally we can personally choose not to fund the other side of terrorism.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:47 am

I did notice from one of the videos that showed the type of plug used to charge the Volt that it is different from the plug shown with the concept Volt. I wonder if this is due to discussions with the electric utility industry or what. The newer version looks like it would be sturdier and easier to plug in. Maybe GM just looked at it with more eyes and minds and came to the conclusion they needed to change the style of plug.

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:49 am

#57 Dave G said:

The ICE’s electric generator is the starter. The Li/Ion battery powers it for starting the engine.
_____

Are you sure? Like it was said before, “sweet” if it works that way.

[Reply]
me here Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:51 am

DOT is already complaining about less revenue just from the drop in miles driven this past 6 months, so you can bet they will go ape about electirc.
___
The number of electric vehicles will be small for awhile, road tax from electric vehicles is a problem they don’t need to worry about for at least a few years.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:52 am

#69 DC Says: “… Compare it to a baseline high mileage like-sized vehicle like the Corolla which is $18-20,000 or so. Now you’re talking about a $20-$25,000 difference in price - to save $1,000 a year on fuel and make a political statement.”
————————————————————————————–
The Volt will cost around $30K or $32K after tax credits, depending on who gets elected.

GM’s CEO recently said the Volt would cost around $37K. Obama is offering a $7K Volt tax credit. McCain is offering a $5K tax credit.

[Reply]
Freemon Sandlewould Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:58 am

Fridges use almost nothing.

Air Condition ( in Arizona ) - uses HUGE amounts.

The Volt is GOING to drive up electricity prices no ifs / buts / ands about it.

But it will still be a good thing. We can use coal to generate the electricity at 12,000 psi instead of gasoline in engines with compression ratios that make them much less efficient under Carnot cycle theory.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:00 am

There have been several comments on how electric consumption would be factored into the roadway tax currently funded by gasoline. It’s really simple… move away from a tax based on energy consumption and replace it with a tax calculated by how many miles your drive. Annual state inspections record your miles driven, which is then submitted to the State, which then issues a tax bill (hopefully to paid on a monthly payment plan). This plan makes the most sense because road wear and tear is normally a function of vehicle miles. Furthermore, as trucks begin moving to electric propulsion, you can factor in a weight multiplier, so heavy class vehicles pay more per vehicle mile (since they exert proportionally greater wear and tear, on asphalt anyway). Good idea? Yes? No?

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:00 am

#80 Estero,

I don’t know if GM has verified this specifically, but when I asked many months ago, multiple people here said it works that way.

Lyle, could you ask GM if the engine is started from the Li/Ion battery or a separate battery? In other words, can you jump-start the Volt, or can the Volt jump-start other cars?

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:01 am

#82 Dave G said:

GM’s CEO recently said the Volt would cost around $37K. Obama is offering a $7K Volt tax credit. McCain is offering a $5K tax credit.
_____

That’s just political talk! It takes legislation to enact any tax credits and that’s not going to happen before the election. Once a proposal gets put before our congress, anything can happen! The reality is likely to be quite different than what either candidate is saying at this time.

Let’s stick to the topic and stay away from politics!

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:04 am

We can forget the $7,000 tax credit Obama is talking about. Congress has already offered the $5,000 tax credit suggested by McCain. That may or may not pass both houses, but I expect it will. And that is a Maximum $5,000 tax credit that is limited to the first 60,000 vehicles produced. And its a graduated tax credit.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:06 am

#84 Jim in PA Says: “It’s really simple… move away from a tax based on energy consumption and replace it with a tax calculated by how many miles your drive.”
————————————————————————————-
This was a really bad idea when it was suggested last year, and it’s still a bad idea.

The fact is that big heavy SUVs wear out roads a lot faster than small light cars. In addition, mileage taxes do nothing to encourage efficiency or conservation.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:09 am

#69 DC Says: “… Compare it to a baseline high mileage like-sized vehicle like the Corolla which is $18-20,000 or so. Now you’re talking about a $20-$25,000 difference in price - to save $1,000 a year on fuel and make a political statement.”

Hey DC, you just made an argument that there is no market for ANY higher priced vehicles. What is the payback on a Saab? BMW? Caddy? There is none. People pay more money for a preferred vehicle all the time. Why they prefer it is up to them, not you. And the Volt is not comparable to a Corrolla; a Cobalt is. The fact is that the Volt will be more more well appointed than a Corrolla and have more advanced technology. Enough with the fake argument that the Volt has to result in positive payback in terms of gas savings. It doesn’t have to.

By the way, please provide the payback schedule on purchasing a Corrolla over a less expensive Kia. Thanks, that would be great.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:09 am

#63 Dale

Malibu = $19,008,50, not $28,000

http://www.gm.com/summersale/summersale.do?brandId=Ch&pvcId=10708&year=2008&cmp=GMdotcom_bbcard&zip=49220

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:09 am

#87 N Riley,

These types of tax credits have already passed both houses, but not with enough votes to override Bush’s veto. See here for details:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/05/26/gm-ceo-misquoted-about-chevy-volt-price-and-timing-want-it-for-less-get-tax-credits-passed/

[Reply]
hermant Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:11 am

I really like the idea of data exchange, but then I have nothing to hide! With data exchange, EPRI can better understand the load factor and optimize the grid. With data exchange, the government can charge a fair road tax and detect all of those who would use this new technology to cheat others in society. With data exchange, your car will be able to negotiate the lowest possible price for charging at any point in time without you having to intervene constantly. With data exchange, police authorities will be able to locate where your stolen Volt is being recharged. With data exchange, you will be able to get the latest GM memory flash upgrades overnight without any inconvenience to you. With data exchange, your car will always be up to date with your favorite music, updated roadmaps, restaraunt guides, and lots of other very desirable information.

Why don’t people mind their I-phones having data exchange? Why don’t folks mind having “always on” cable modem connections? Why don’t folks mind laptop cards which use data exchange on the go? Are all of these detractors software experts? Do they actually know what “data exchange” they are already paying for each month? As the song says, “Paranoia will destroy ya…”

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:12 am

What I expect will happen is States will start taxing EV’s and E-REV’s with increased license plate fees to offset the reduction in gas taxes.

One way or another, the government will make sure they do not lose out on gas taxes!

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:12 am

I don’t like the mileage tax idea. The feds could just place an excise tax on the hybrid and electric vehicles when sold which would be then financed over the life of the loan. The adoption of hybrid and electric vehicles into our economy should not be ham strung by government. It should be encouraged by government at all levels. Just like internet purchases have been done. For the next 25 years or so, the government should ban certain taxes on hybrid and electric vehicles.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:12 am

#86 Estero Says: “Let’s stick to the topic and stay away from politics!”
————————————————————————————-
I think the price of the Volt after tax credits is on topic.

[Reply]
Shawn Marshall Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:15 am

Lyle, #1 fan boy,
Glad you got some very public info on facts discussed on this site about a year ago for all the worry warts who thought the ‘antiquated’ grid would fall apart.
Incredible to see all the second guessing on the kW-hr costs.

I wonder why you still bother with this, ain’t it aggravating?

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:18 am

#94 N Riley Says: “For the next 25 years or so, the government should ban certain taxes on hybrid and electric vehicles.”
————————————————————————————-
Good idea. Anything that lowers foreign oil imports will help the economy and reduce the threat of terrorism. Both of these will increase government income long term. So taxing electricity for cars near term is a bad idea.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:23 am

#88 Dave G - First I was confused by your opinion of my comment, until I realized that you didn’t actually bother to read my post before you criticized. So let’s try it again with an excerpt from my post…

“Furthermore, as trucks begin moving to electric propulsion, you can factor in a weight multiplier, so heavy class vehicles pay more per vehicle mile (since they exert proportionally greater wear and tear….”

You see, I clearly addressed what you claimed I overloooked. Your vehicle weight is already on record, and can be easily factored in as I suggest. Furthermore, this approach DOES award conservation because the highest taxes would be paid by those driving the farthest and driving the heaviest vehicles.

Suffice to say, I’m pretty confident you didn’t give a concrete reason why a mileage tax (with a weight factor) is a “bad idea.” But I’m still all ears.

[Reply]
Leo Springs Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:24 am

Even if the Volt costs the same to operate as a gas vehicle I want one!
If it helps get us off foreign oil it’ll be worth the price.

We’ve got to stop financing the nuts/terrorists who are using the money from our oil purchases to try to harm us financially or to kill us.

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:24 am

#95 Dave G

Don’t think so! The topic is fuel cost, not tax credits! But, if you feel the need to talk about tax credits, can we do it without all the politics? That’s all I’m saying/asking!

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am

#94 N Riley Says: “The feds could just place an excise tax on the hybrid and electric vehicles when sold which would be then financed over the life of the loan.”
————————————————————————————-
What loan? I’ll pay cash.

Also, how does an excise tax promote conservation?

Eventually, maybe in 15-20 years, the government will have to find a way to tax the electricity consumed by plug-ins to cover our roads and highway infrastructure. By this time, smart charging will probably have caught on.

In the meantime, as you say, we should forget about taxing plug-ins and get as many on the road as possible.

[Reply]
Gordon Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am

If the range extender were CNG instead of gasoline, wouldn’t that eliminate the “stale-gas-in-the-tank” issue that I have read about here? Or, does CNG get “stale” over time too? I’m a short range commuter (well under the 40 mile limit one way) and I’m thinking it would be an all-electric vehicle for me almost all the time. What say you?

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:27 am

#94 N Riley
#97 Dave G

I agree!

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:29 am

#98 Jim in PA,

If I understand you correctly, you are asserting that driving habits have nothing to do with fuel efficiency. Is this correct?

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:32 am

I don’t believe hybrids should get a free ride, especially if the government already offers purchase incentives. The fact is that America has infrastructure that requires funding. If you drive an electric Volt, you exert just as much stress on the road system as a V8 Camaro, and should be taxed for road maintenance equally. The only people who should be cut slack on road taxes are those you exert very little stress (mass transit, bikes, etc.) That is why a gas tax or mileage tax is fair. However, let me be clear that I DON’T want EREVs to be double taxed on mileage AND gas. That would be a bit trickier to figure out over the next couple of decades while we move away from gas-based transportation. One possible solution is to add a line for income tax deduction on gas purchases for EREV owners maybe.

[Reply]
Aspherical Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am

#102 Gordon

Correct, properly stored CNG does not get stale. I personally believe that a CNG range extender is the best way to go. It’s abundant and here in America. I also remember reading a story that San Antonio is planning to capture natural gas from the sewage system and selling it to energy companies for a cheaper price than current prices. Much, much better than drilling for and refining crude oil….

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am

#105 Jim in PA

You had me up to that last sentence. Sorry, ‘income tax deduction’ is not a good idea! If one takes the standard deduction, there is no tax deduction. And, those who do not file taxes (because of income) would pay no taxes. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point!

[Reply]
JimGalaxy Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am

Interesting thread. It’s kind of startling to me, to see the wide differentials in price per KWh, just depending on where in the US (or North America) you live. Here in SC, I paid 8.7 cents per KWh in August. About half of our power comes from local nuclear facilities, which is fairly unusual. Still .. rates are all over the place from state to state .. and there seems to be *much* more variation in electricity rates than in gas price differences from state to state.

[Reply]
hermant Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:40 am

I you run the range extender on natural gas, how could you charge the road taxes? Wouldn’t folks just fill up at home and not tell? I’m for more taxes right now, since the economy can best handle it now. That way, big government can create road worker jobs which will make us like the ride of the new GM Volt!

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:43 am

#70 N. Riley said “I did notice from one of the videos that showed the type of plug used to charge the Volt that it is different from the plug shown with the concept Volt. I wonder if this is due to discussions with the electric utility industry or what. The newer version looks like it would be sturdier and easier to plug in. Maybe GM just looked at it with more eyes and minds and came to the conclusion they needed to change the style of plug.”
—————————————-
Do you recall which video that was? Several people have mentioned it, and I would like to look at it. Thanks.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am

#102 Gordon,

CNG engines are very inefficient, and therefore have much higher emissions. See here (pages 3 & 4) for details:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf

Besides, the whole concept of cars like the Volt is to transition ourselves from what we use now (gasoline) to a better mix of fuels (electricity and E85).

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am

#98 Jim in PA

I don’t understand the entire approach. We can use gas for transportation which means: (1) transfer payments to Russia, Iran, and Venezuela; (2) increased expense due to health problems from air pollution; and (3) increased military expenditures to keep supply lines open. Or we can use electricity which creates local jobs and eliminates the costs associated with using gas.

So why in the world would we want to tax electrical use? Just keep raising the tax on gas. Gas usage has gotten a huge free ride for a very long time. Twenty or thirty years from now we can worry about taxing electrical usage. Right now that’s a crazy idea because we need to be encouraging that use not discouraging it.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am

#72 Steveland Harris

GM’s estimates are based on $0.08/kWh, not $0.19 as you rave about. Many of us have prices significantly lower than what you claim, or even GM claims. In Memphis we pay MLGW $0.07/kWh which is fed by TVA (hydroelectric or coal or solar power). Off-peak hours dip yet lower to $0.02/kWh.

——-

It’s true you have the 7th best utility prices in the USA.

http://www.mlgw.com/images/RateComparison.pdf

You get the first 2000 kWh @ .0723, but you also get a ‘cost adjustment’ bump of .0058,, which puts it close to 8 cents.

What you also didn’t factor in is your $11.20 base charge.

http://www.mlgw.com/images/RSApr08

As far as I can tell, there is no ‘off-peak program’ at all, it is flat fee. Certainly nothing under .02/kWh. There is no ‘off-peak’ on any MLGW bills I’ve seen,.

Here is a example bill, you can see that the customer paid $60.15 for 675 kWh or $.089 per….still excellent, but not 2 cents.

http://www.mlgw.com/images/yourbill.pdf

What I’m saying is, you hook up to MLGW electric…and you use 500kWh of power, you are not getting a bill in the mail for $10, impossible. You are getting a bill for $50.

The only cost that matters is the bottom line. Average US bottom line price is about 14 cents.

[Reply]
Biodieseljeep Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Look, if you want to justify buying a car, you will. You’ll tweek the numbers and lie to yourself. Just enoy it. Whatever the cost. I’m an idiot about this car. I know it, the dealer knows it, my wife knows it and the bank will know it soon. But I ain’t beotchin’ about the price of FIRST RUN technology. I KNOW the price of flat-screens, Iphones, and women is MUCH higher when they are brand new. If you want it easy and on the cheap, get it used (aka divorced) from its first owner (aka husband) in a couple of years, or wait until 2020 when they are a dime a dozen.

For those without enough money to buy anything new over $20k, you won’t get a Volt, sorry. Whether it is $30k, $35k, or $40k, it sure as heck ain’t gonna be new below $20k in the next ten years, even if Karl Marx gets elected President.

Sorry, just thought I’d throw some cold water on the dogs that are f-ing themselves here today. Yes, Lyle/GM made a error with savings calcs. No, the basic premise is not wrong, electricity is cheaper than gas.

Can we stop discussed hards facrts and statistics and get back to the important business of complaining about how it looks?

rant over

end of line

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:45 am

#82 Dave G said “The Volt will cost around $30K or $32K after tax credits, depending on who gets elected.

GM’s CEO recently said the Volt would cost around $37K. Obama is offering a $7K Volt tax credit. McCain is offering a $5K tax credit.”=—————————————————-
Good to look back at statik’s post on this topic, yesterday.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:47 am

#104 Dave G says “Jim in PA - If I understand you correctly, you are asserting that driving habits have nothing to do with fuel efficiency. Is this correct?”

Ummm…. did I post a comment that I don’t remember? Of course I never make that ridiculous claim you are trying to attribute to me. Of course aggressive driving uses more fuel. What’s your point? Do you want to levy a tax on brake pads? (hmmm… intended to be sarcastic, but maybe not a bad idea…)

Sure poor driving habits consume more energy. Which means that a gas-guzzling SUV driver with poor driving habits will have to buy more gas and spend more money, and an EREV owner with poor habits will pay for more elecricity. So there are economic disincentives. No, it would not be reflected in the tax rolls with a vehicle mileage tax, but neither would letting your car warm up in the driveway on a cold winter day, or driving around with four people instead of one. But I still fail to see a fair and equitable alternative to a mileage tax with a vehicle weight factor.

[Reply]
Estero Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:49 am

#70 N. Riley

Whatever the plug size and shape, won’t it require UL testing and certification before it can be used on the Volt?

[Reply]
GXT Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:52 am

89. Jim in PA
In terms of features, the $40K Volt may not be comparable to a $15K Kia but neither will it be comparable to a $40K BWM.

I guess we will see what features the Volt has, but it seems the price is going into the drivetrain/batteries. If I am paying more for a car and virtually all the money is going to a feature that is supposed to save me cash on fuel then it is completely fair and correct to compare the two.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:56 am

#92 hermant says “Why don’t people mind their I-phones having data exchange? Why don’t folks mind having “always on” cable modem connections? Why don’t folks mind laptop cards which use data exchange on the go? Are all of these detractors software experts? Do they actually know what “data exchange” they are already paying for each month? As the song says, “Paranoia will destroy ya…”
————————————————-
Two concerns that did not involve privacy were these:
1.) The need for a working data connection, in addition to a power connection, as a condition for charging
2) The possibility of delay in recharging if the power company did not give a “go ahead” signal promptly, whether on purpose or by accident. In this regard, several people noted limitations of power companies in parts of the USA.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:57 am

#111 DonC - you misunderstand me. I am a huge EREV and Volt advocate. But we already tax electricity, so that’s not an issue here. What I am discussing is the the need to tax ALL vehicles on the road for purposes to raising money for roadway maintenance. Yes, the gas tax can carry us for now, but in the future when we (hopefully) are in EVs or EREVs there needs to be a revenue raising solution. The only way I can think of that’s fair is to charge by the mile, since vehicle miles have a direct effect on roadway degradation. I do realize that such a tax is years in the future, and won’t be needed for quite sometime. So for the short term, yeah a free (tax) ride for EREVs is great… until it starts effecting highway funding in real terms. Then it’s time to pick up our end of the slack.

[Reply]
Lurtz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:57 am

GM, you’re going to be too late. Toyota is beating you to market with a plug-in hybrid.

PLUS: The Prius’ mission is not to be a green halo to compensate for the rest of Toyota’s models.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html

Toyota may be the first to market with a plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) vehicle. Today, we were briefed on Toyota’s future hybrid and alternative fuel plans. And while there was no official announcement by Yoshitaka Asakura, Project General Manager of Toyota’s Hybrid Vehicle System Engineering Development Division, he mentioned that their plug-in development program was under way and that it may not wait for lithium-ion battery technology to mature.

“Toyota has the knowledge and experience with nickel metal hydride. And we have to use the battery we know best, in terms of overall performance,” said Asakura.

Toyota is using their proven nickel-metal hydride (NiMh) battery packs in prototype Prius PHEV’s which we had an opportunity to drive at Toyota’s Higashi-Fuji Technical Center about 45 minutes (by train) outside Tokyo. The prototype PHEV’s use two current generation Prius battery packs sandwiched together with the charging system in-between. The packs are modified to deliver a greater ability to charge and discharge. This is, according to Asakura, so that they can get an accurate representation of how the more energy dense lithium ion pack will perform in production vehicles. In all likelihood, the first of those vehicles will be the next generation Prius. The prototype battery system weighs about 220 lbs. more than the current production Prius pack and intrudes into the trunk so that that’s there’s only room for about two medium size suitcases. A lithium ion pack would be much smaller and lighter—about the size of today’s production battery pack.

Asakura said the prototypes can operate on electric power for a range of about 7 miles and can re-charge in three to four hours using a 110-vlot outlet. Under the hood is the current Prius’s 1.5-liter inline four. The electric motor generates 50kW, which combined with the more powerful pack, allows the Prius prototype to reach 62 mph on electric-only power. Current cars can only hit about 25 mph before the gasoline engine cuts in.

Our drive in the prototype PHEV was brief, only four laps of a small course setup inside the test facility. But it was impressive. The hybrid system has an “EV” mode and a more conventional “hybrid” mode. In EV mode the vehicle can run on electric power longer and with a more aggressive throttle input than in the hybrid mode. With an eye on the energy flow meter (basically a reprogrammed and updated version of what’s in the Prius now) we were able to accelerate up to approximately 50 mph and keep the car in electric mode all the way around the track. Like many owners do in the current Prius, we found ourselves playing the efficiency game of trying to keep the car in electric mode as long as possible. After two back-to-back laps, the monitor said we still had around 6 kilometers of battery life remaining. The most impressive part of the system was that it can take 1/4 to 1/2 throttle without engaging the gasoline engine. And that means for short 3 to 4 mile commutes, one could conceivably get to work and return home solely on electric power. The hybrid mode works much like the current car, engaging the internal combustion engine much sooner. This mode, it is presumed will be most applicable to long trips, when charging the battery isn’t an option.

The next generation Prius, due around calendar year 2009, will almost certainly use a plug-in system. The car may launch as a normal hybrid and later, once the lithium ion battery technology is ready, switch to plug-in capability. Or, it may be a plug-in from the beginning using a large NiMh pack and switch to lithium ion later. We think the latter may be true because we’ve heard rumors that the vehicle architecture is being designed for both battery types.

Whichever route Toyota goes, it will need more hybrids on the road. They have publicly announced their goal is to sell 1-million hybrids each year beginning early next decade. And PHEV’s are sure to make up a healthy portion of those vehicles.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:58 am

#116 Estero on UL certification of the plug
——————————————————-
Yes it is likely to be required, but there is no reason that should be a problem or cause a delay. Another question is whether the plug is one already available, or whether a special GM plug or cord is required.

[Reply]
GXT Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:59 am

113. Biodieseljeep,

Mistake? Or purposely vague and misleading. Actually, I don’t think there will be any way to justify the increased cost of the Volt. We’ve been over this thousands of times and the only people that seem able to do it are the people doing the math wrong or assuming an unreasonably low price.

Look, if it were justifiable, wouldn’t GM be doing that instead of blowing smoke up our arses with half-truths and lies? I can do what GM does too:
“The hummer costs way less to operate than the Volt. Gas costs 12 cents / gallon(1). A hummer can go 20 miles/gallon(2). Therefore the Hummer can go for $0.006/mile and only use $90/year at 15,000 miles per year. That is less gas than

[Reply]
GXT Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

… continued

a typical (3) household would use for their lawnmower each year.”

(1) In Venezulea
(2) Going down a 5% grade.
(3) Typical $100 Million dollar plus house with 10 acres of grass or more.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#105 Jim in PA Says: “I don’t believe hybrids should get a free ride, especially if the government already offers purchase incentives. The fact is that America has infrastructure that requires funding. … That is why a gas tax or mileage tax is fair. However, let me be clear that I DON’T want EREVs to be double taxed on mileage AND gas.”
————————————————————————————-
First, it only becomes a real problem when plug-ins become a significant percentage of cars on the road. That will probably take 10-20 years. If it’s sooner, that would be a good problem to have! But assuming it’s 10-20 years, smart charging will probably be in place, so the government could charge taxes on actual electricity used.

Second, I agree that a gas tax is fair, since it encourages conservation. In fact, I think gas taxes might be raised without hurting the economy. Specifically, I think the government should set a minimum price on gasoline, like maybe $3/gallon. If the market price falls below that, taxes would be added to bring it back up to minimum. This would encourage development of plug-ins, ethanol, and bio-diesel. It would also encourage using less gasoline in regular cars.

Third, in 10-20 years once electric taxes are in place, I don’t think it’s unfair to tax both gas and electricity. If you are driving on electricity from the grid, you would be paying that tax. If you are driving on electricity from the range extender, you would be paying gas/E85 tax.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#113 Biodieseljeep

I know what your getting at…and I agree.

You buy the Volt for ‘green-cred’ or getting off dependancy of foreign oil ONLY. Nothing to do with costing/vale…it just doesn’t work.

However, the thread is about costing, so I think it is fair ball, you just have to put up with it.

…still a good point to bring up from time to time, even here.

[Reply]
Jim in PA Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#120 Lurtz - I am not impressed. The all electric range of 7 miles is 1/6 the all-electric range of the Volt. I’m not impressed that it’s a “plug in”. What good is a “plug in” when plugging in doesn’t get you anywhere? My neighbor has had a plug-in for years… to heat his engine block. NEXT!

[Reply]
Ken J W Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

No. 5, I’m sorry, but I need to see that at the rates I’ve seen gas in the last couple of years.

MPG Gals $ 2.99 $ 3.99 $ 4.59 $ 4.99
—— —— ————- ————- ————- ————-
15 1000 $2,990.00 $3,990.00 $4,590.00 $4,990.00
20 750 $2,242.50 $2,992.50 $3,442.50 $3,742.50
30 500 $1,495.00 $1,995.00 $2,295.00 $2,495.00
40 375 $1,121.25 $1,496.25 $1,721.25 $1,871.25

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

#120 Lurtz,

The Toyota Prius will have a plug, but the similarities with the Volt end there. The Prius plug-in only goes about 8 miles on electricity, and even then the gas engine comes on at higher speeds or when you accelerate.

For example, using a typical yearly driving profile of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day

The Toyota Prius Plug-In gets an average of 70 MPG.

The Volt gets an average of 314 MPG.

I’m not a huge fan of GM or Toyota. I drive a Honda. But if GM pulls this off, it will be a real game changer. Way more significant than the Prius Plug-In.

[Reply]
Mike Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

#81
All the better reason to raise the federal gas tax. Once gas drops down to around $3 a gallon, raise the gas tax (something like 18 cents a gallon now if memory serves correctly). Not sure what it should be at (10% of the average price over the past 2 years or something like that would work, adjusted yearly to avoid huge price swings) but double it now to 36 cents/gallon. It’s not like we can’t take an extra 18 cents a gallon at this point anyway (especially after the Ike Gouging). I’d MUCH rather an extra 18 cents go to the federal government than to a station owner or big oil company and since we’re already used to gas over $3/gallon, it really won’t do anything except keep us doing what we should be doing (conserving the best we can and dumping gashogs).

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

#126

I agree that’s pathetic. Frankly I’m extremely disappointed in Honda and Toyota on this one. I love my Honda but their hybrid is crappy and the new insight they are coming out with is going to be another Prius (notice how it looks exactly like one). We need cars like the volt that are actually pushing through barriers, not 7 miles on some half throttle crap. You know they said the prius could drive for a short way with the electric engine. It’s impossible, our family owns one.

[Reply]
tom harwick Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

I think we can put one issue to bed. If you drive a pure BEV, you do not have to worry about power outages grounding you. Amazon sells a 1200W gasoline generator for $119. So you can get an 8KW charge in under 7 hours.

Also a possible option for PHEV (Volt) owners, who can charge up even when power is out, and still not have to put gas in the tank. This could be worth doing, because a generator driven by a tiny gas engine will charge the battery using less gas than the Volt’s onboard ICE would.

But if you do this, BE CAREFUL HOW YOU STORE THAT GAS!!!

[Reply]
Jackson Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

Natural Gas Volt-ers:

Doesn’t Natural Gas fuel for the range extender put a serious hitch in long-distance Volt travel? Natural Gas may be plentiful in the US, but places to fill your car with it are emphatically not. If you want to refill the tank at home with some kind of device that hooks up to your gas line, you’re basically extending your local range.

But if you visit, say, Atlanta, if you can find the one and only car-filling station, you might wish you hadn’t (hint: it’s not in a nice area — I know of one NG car owner who takes a handgun with him when he goes there). Sure, that’ll change in time, but so will the availability of public electric plug-in locations.

Taxation:

Technology allows transportation tax to become far more complicated. It will all you to be taxed by:

1. Vehicle/fuel type
2. Where and how driven (road type / time of day / speed)
3. Weight

and probably much more, which would make everyone “equal.” The problem with this is, as some have pointed out, a listing of your car trips which rivals the detail of a phone bill.

The point I was trying to make is, what technology allows Beauracracy to do will be done to the fullest, most aggravating, privacy-denying way possible unless specific controls are put into effect to prevent.

It is probably too early to worry about it happening, but not too early to start thinking in terms of what controls might be necessary in a free society.

[Reply]
noel park Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

OK, there’s no problem with the grid. Next case!

Have a nice weekend boys and girls.

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

[Reply]
Mike-o-Matic Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

@79 N. Riley,

>> the type of plug used to charge the Volt that it is different from the
>> plug shown with the concept Volt. I wonder if this is due to
>> discussions with the electric utility industry or what

I believe that is because the new plug is an SAE-standard J1772 connector. This is, IMHO, a better idea than a proprietary GM connector because components may be easier to get your hands on (personally) or if you’re a cable/socket/whatever OEM or an auto parts distributor.

[Reply]
George P. Burdell Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Horse Biscuits! You’re off by a factor of 10. The cost of 15,000 miles of electricity is more like $730.

15,000 miles at 60 mph takes 250 hours. A small car cruising takes about 16 hp or 21 kW. The energy consumed is 5250 kWh. At 14.5 cents per kWh you need $766.

You dropped a zero somewhere.

George

[Reply]
Jackson Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Edit didn’t work. Please allow me to re-state (Lyle, please delete my previous reply if you wish)

Natural Gas Volt-ers:

Doesn’t Natural Gas fuel for the range extender put a serious hitch in long-distance Volt travel? Natural Gas may be plentiful in the US, but places to fill your car with it are emphatically not. If you want to refill the tank at home with some kind of device that hooks up to your gas line, you’re basically just extending your local range.

But if you visit, say, Atlanta, if you can find the one and only car-filling station, you might wish you hadn’t (hint: it’s not in a nice area — I know of one NG car owner here who takes a handgun with him when he goes there). Sure, that’ll change in time, but so will the availability of public electric plug-in locations.

Taxation:

Technology allows transportation tax to become far more complicated.

You could taxed by:

1. Vehicle/fuel type
2. Where and when driven (by road, by road type / time of day)
3. How fast you were going (hint “speed limit” could become “minimum free speed,” with fines for every foot travelled above “maximum legal speed”)

and probably much more, which would make everyone “equal,” but would produce a listing of your car trips which rivals the detail of a phone bill. A list which could be insecure, abused, or both.

The point I was trying to make is, whatever technology allows Beauracracy to do will be done to the fullest, most aggravating, privacy-denying extent unless specific controls are put into effect to prevent them.

It is probably too early to worry about what it could mean to early Volt owners, but not too early to start thinking in terms of what controls might be necessary in a free society.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

#120 Lurtz

First off, that article is hella old, lol. October 22, 2007.

#128 Dave G

The Toyota Prius Plug-In gets an average of 70 MPG.
The Volt gets an average of 314 MPG.
—————-

MOST IMPORTANT FACT ABOUT PLUG-IN PRIUS (and why they are suddenly building it):

Plug-In Option, estimated $4,000
-adds a 5kW pack to the 1.3kW onboard standard (ala A123-Hymotion pack)

This gives 6.3 total kW power AND QUALIFIES it for the $7,000 EV rebate the gov’t has signalled is in the pipeline. (Although one would assume they might just make one 6kW pack for production..who knows, whatever it is…it will make the minimum requirements for the rebate for sure).

$22,000 Prius +$4,000 Plug-In= $26,000 base - $7,000= $19,000

Thats a $19,000 car that goes all electric 7-10 miles and gets 70MPG. Metaphorically speaking that ‘takes all other cars out behind the woodshed and beats them to death’.

(Although more than likely, Toyota will do some gouging, marking it up to like $29,999+ and pocket the extra rebate cash as profit…making it more like $23,000 to the consumer…same as GM will probably do for the Volt)

To me this is the most real threat to the Volt. Toyota is the only one that has a relatively easy job on entering this market, and Toyota is the only company that can ramp up to almost limitless capacity because the Prius is reversed engineered to accept this conversion.

(It only takes A123-Hymotion 4 hours to do a conversion on the current gen Prius).

The only stumbling block (for everyone) is the batteries. Assuming Toyota and GM had access to the same number of cells/production, Toyota could still produce three times as many due to their smaller pack.

To me the Plug-In Prius is the one that will impact the market more. 7-10 miles EV, 70 MPG for 20K. The general public I don’t think will understand why they should pay a extra $20,000 to get alot less MPG, but 30 more miles of range…it won’t make sense. I know I have trouble with it myself.

/just my opinion

[Reply]
DaveP Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

I always like to mention the little problem of the power company forcing you to pay MORE for all the OTHER power that you use that isn’t going into your car. I’ve talked about this in detail, before:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/21/gm-launches-major-collaboration-with-epri-and-30-utility-companies-to-ready-the-grid-for-the-volt/#comment-54601

Basically, the local power companies (got California to) require you to take the “low emission vehicle” schedule which rather than just giving you a steep discount at night also charges you excessively for all your other power consumption.

To bottom line it, you could pay 3x more for the bulk of your power just to save 50% on that 25% of your use that is your car! Read my previous post for the details.

(Oh, and the story gets even worse for those of us producing solar power. Rate schedules like PG&E’s E-9 just about destroy the cost effectiveness of solar power)

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

#135 George P. Burdell — So good to hear from you. I know we were supposed to get together at GT, and everybody said you were there, but somehow I missed you. Maybe next time

[Reply]
Mike Casey Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

The amount of tax that could be raised from parking meters that have electric plugs on them is astronomical. If you live in an apartment complex and there is only street parking don’t you think the muni will put in parking meters with plugs in them. I don’t think they will have much trouble in finding away to tax the EV we have hundreds of lawyers in congress that do nothing but look for tax’s——–No Plug No Sale——-

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

#135 statik says “To me this is the most real threat to the Volt. Toyota is the only one that has a relatively easy job on entering this market, and Toyota is the only company that can ramp up to almost limitless capacity because the Prius is reversed engineered to accept this conversion. ”
—————————————————
With greatest respect, I disagree. I think the great risk comes from the Honda Civic Hybrid. It is a car almost identical to the Volt in appearance and size, and one that gets 45 mpg. It can be (and is) sold as using almost no gasoline. When the Volt arrives it will be sold as using almost no gas, and you don’t have to plug it in.

The lever will be the price. At $25K versus maybe $35K or $40K, for a proven vehicle as compared to an experimental vehicle, most buyers will go to Honda.

[Well, maybe, I don't really know, but I think the Honda Civic Hybrid is the most serious threat. Anybody that will consider one will consider the other if they are looking for a nice small car. The exceptions are the diehard Honda or diehard Volt people, and these days there are more of the former than the latter.].

[Reply]
Peter M Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

The rates in Minnesota are

Peak - As high as 15.0 c per KWH
Off-Peak - As low as 1.6c per KWH.

At off peak of 1.6c per kilowatt hour, the Math on $73 per year works well.

see
http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/19/chevy-volt-and-the-electric-grid-drive-15000-miles-for-73/

Page 2 for the rates.

See:
http://www.xcelenergy.com/Company/About_Energy_and_Rates/Energy%20Prices%20(Rates%20and%20Tariffs)/Pages/Energy_Prices_Rates_and_Tariffs.aspx

for other states Xcel serves.

Peter M

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

#141

Not saying that I disagree totally, but the prius has far out sold the civic hybrid. When you go to the honda dealership, they don’t push the hybrid or know anything about them. Toyota actually knows all about their hybrid and markets it.

But I don’t see why either toyota or honda or any other car company can’t create a plug in and sell it. Chevy isn’t exactly the most likely candidate for this kind of technology…and I guarantee it will sell.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

#110 RB

I do not recall the exact video. I will look back and see if I can find it and post its link. I do remember that I got to it from a link posted on this site. It was not a direct link. It seems I had to follow another link.

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

#119 Jim in PA — Cool. I’m with you.

[Reply]
Jeff Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

“…10 million E-REVs will use less than 1% of the US electric grids total capacity”

Did anybody run the numbers for let’s say…1,000,000 E-REVs in a smaller area like Los Angeles? If GM does not distribute the E-REVs across the USA (or the market clusters to somewhere like CA), will it cause an issue for the electric power companies?

Of course with the stellar record of CA electric organizations forecasting electrical energy demand, it should not be a problem. Right?

However…we appear to be several years away from 1 million E-REVs (PHEVs); unless the other auto companies decide to produce a PHEV.

[Reply]
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

#141 RB Says: “I think the great risk comes from the Honda Civic Hybrid. It is a car almost identical to the Volt in appearance and size, and one that gets 45 mpg. It can be (and is) sold as using almost no gasoline.”
————————————————————————————-
Honda is making a Plug-In Civic Hybrid? I want to know more. What is the electric range? Do you have a link?

[Reply]
Lurtz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

I’m not a GM fan; I’ll admit that. The Volt is the only things that got me to notice GM. If that’s the only purpose of the Volt, it succeeded. (Unfortunately I’m starting to think that’s the sole purpose of the Volt…)

But the Prius exists, the Volt is (so far) vaporware. Plus, there’s no telling which company is playing what kinds of games with expectations.

If the Prius’ “7 mile” all electric range turns out to be 20? Home run for Toyota.

If the Volt’s “40 mile” all electric range turns out to be 35 or 30? Disaster.

PLUS… You can get a Prius for far cheaper.

GM has never made the case that their FORTY THOUSAND DOLLAR “plug in hybrid” is worth the steep premium over the competitor’s “plug in hybrid”. All customers will see is “plug in hybrid” and the price tag. “But it’s an [trademarked acronym]!” You say. Customers say: “I get in, drive. What’s the big deal?”

Anyhow, you haters can look back on my posting history. I was excited about the Volt until you convinced me it was a PR campaign, not a car. I would keep my hopes up, except it’s not the only plug-in hybrid coming to the market. So I tend to think it’s GM’s ‘Hail Mary’ to fleece the US taxpayers for another $25-50 billion to stay alive and keep churning out “Big Overpriced Cars” and “Cheap Plastic Canadian” cars.

[Reply]
Morgan Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

137 Statik:

Your opinion is very valid. However if GM’s pricing numbers hold up the Plug In Saturn VUE is going to be the vehicle that takes both the Prius, Honda, and sadly, Volt out behind the woodshed and kick the tar out of it. Especially with it coming out slightly after or at the late 2009 Prius release.

[Reply]
mikeinatl. Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

To the Wizards of the Treads….

Exactly what is involved in making gasoline engines capable of using CNG? Is it just tanks, lines and a modified injector?

What would it cost to add CNG to most current cars?

About what would it add to the cost of a Volt if there were tens of thousands being made?

Would it make sense to REQUIRE this dual-fuel capability on all cars in the future? I kinda like the Pickens Plan but realize there is a big piece missing. No fueling stations. This would solve that problem. The free market would respond and swoosh, we’d have fueling stations.

CNG burns 90% cleaner and is much cheaper than gasoline. Plus I have it already piped into my garage for utilities.

[Reply]
Lurtz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

By the way… THIS is a beautiful car:

Honda CR-Z Hybrid.

And it’s going to be around $20K.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

#147

To my knowledge all they are making is the insight. Looks just like a prius and is going to sell for around 19,000. Supposed to be a cheap hybrid, I don’t think it’s supposed to be anything special. Just affordable.

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

#138 DaveP

I don’t have PG&E service, but with respect to E9 don’t you have the option of just metering the charger rather than the whole house? If so wouldn’t that take care of what you’re talking about?

[Reply]
Morgan Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

148 Lurtz:

Why is it that when someone disagrees with a person who is highly opinionated and tends to poke people with a verbal stick they are labeled “Haters”?

The market is wide enough that both cars will be successful. Given comments from family and friends and quite a few people here I am thoroughly convinced that the Volt is not the car that will make GM a lot of money or be a Prius killer. Its the Plug In Saturn VUE.

[Reply]
Lurtz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Morgan - you were around yesterday for the ‘hate on dirty hippies’ day.

In fact, IIRC you were one of those saying “Get a sense of humor, you dirty hairy hippie.”

[Reply]
Brian Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

#152 (John): No, Honda has confirmed that they will make both the Insight and shortly thereafter the CR-Z (http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-cr-z-future.html). BOTH are considerably cheaper than the Volt. I like the Volt, but: I would NOT buy any first-run of a GM car and I certainly would not pay $40k for this car either. Good luck with that.

On another note, I am curious…will the Volt’s mileage decrease based on the ‘lead-footedness’ of the driver? I haven’t read any information on this, but I have to assume the efficiency would decrease for faster drivers.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

#141 RB

With greatest respect, I disagree. I think the great risk comes from the Honda Civic Hybrid. It is a car almost identical to the Volt…

——–

Do you mean the Civic Hybrid…or the new Insight Hybrid at $18,500? Just curious. Either one is certainly a player in the market.

[Reply]
Morgan Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

155 Lurtz:

No, I said “Have a sense of humor, its the Colbert Report” don’t recall ever writing dirty hippy, feel free to point out where I did thanks.

In the bastion of the entertainment spectra its about as serious as Mind of Mencia and should be taken just as seriously.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#110 RB

See the below link for the picture of the charging cord. This is an animation, but I saw it in a real life video with the same type cord found in this. It is in video #10 labeled “Volt Propulsion Animation”.

http://media.gm.com/volt/video/page2.html

[Reply]
Tony Gray Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

One thing that worries me on cost is how GM will market the car. if, as an earlier post mentions, the tax incentives will only apply to the first 60,000 vehicles, and Chevy sells them all in California, New York and Florida, the rest of us will NEVER see the cost savings we envision.

Unless the manufactuing cost goes down by the same amount as the lessened tax credits.

I am still concerned that I will not be able to go to my Hometown Chevy dealer on day one and order my Volt the same time as my counterpart in Santa Barbara.

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#151 Lurtz

The CR-Z looks great. OTOH the Saturn Sky looks as good or perhaps even better, at least to me. So let’s put looks aside.

Basically I can’t see the case for a PHEV sports car. Seems like an oxymoron. With the standard type of econ PHEV system you find on the Prius and the Insight you have to have a very light foot in order to get better mpg. Put your foot down too hard and the ICE kicks in and ruins your city mileage.

You can of course tune the system so that the battery gives you a power assist. But then the mpg isn’t that great so why bother with the PHEV system at all. This is why the hybrid Accord was a flop — people willing to pay for a hybrid want better mpg not better performance.

EVs are much better bets in this arena. If the Volt can change the windings on the fly that will give you performance or econ at the touch of a finger so much the better. GM may have some very cool stuff here.

[Reply]
dannoman Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

My interest in such a vehicle is a little different than the rest of the comments indicate. I would only occasionally want to plug in this car. My fascination is with the 100 mpg claim for running the small-gas generator. This would be a fantastic vehicle for taking on long trips, such as out in the desert, with only a few gallons of gas.
When you go on vacation and stay at a motel, I think the management would patrol the parking lot to make sure no one was “stealing” electricity with an extension cord out the room door. I would hope the supplemental gas engine’s fuel tank would have at least a 6 gallon capacity.
What do we know so far about how this car will heat the cabin in winter? Will it be an electric heating coil, which would further shorten the mile rating for a daily commute, or would it use some sort of heat exchanger off of the gas motor? That would be reminiscent of the old VW heater!

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

#156 Brian - “On another note, I am curious…will the Volt’s mileage decrease based on the ‘lead-footedness’ of the driver?”

Yes of course. The propulsion source doesn’t change the energy you need. As a practical matter this is more an issue of freeway driving, where the faster you go the more aerodynamic drag you have and the more power you need to overcome it. (Drag goes up with the square of velocity and the power you need to overcome it goes up with the cube).

Around town it isn’t such a big deal and you usually aren’t going very far either.

[Reply]
Jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

A lot of attention is being given to costs from Lyle’s post. Economics of purchase are different for each individual. Electricity rates vary all across the country. The variables are infinite. Some will pay cash for their next car and will not be able to use it until they return from their vacations in the south of France. Others will finance theirs and barely be able to make ends meet for a while. There are 300 mill Americans and their individual driving, employment and personal needs will dictate the economic impact of buying one car over another. Meanwhile GM will follow the learning curve and the prices will fall in mass production just as they have for the Prius and Honda Insight. With only 10 k of the first iteration of the Volt for 350 million NA residents, thats like arguing about the life expectations of the next generation of fruit flies - once the argument really heats up, they’ll all be gone any way.

Electric cars do cost less to operate, yet the Volt, from this forum, will cost after generous rebates or no rebates at all from 22 k to 52 k. Big price range, makes it difficult to conclude anything right now! EV’s require vastly less maintenance and electric motors virtually last forever. And 78% of drivers may rarely use the ICE. However, the supposedly $11 k volt battery is expected to last to only 100 to 150 k miles for 10 years. The good news though, is that OEM battery expiration is at 70% of new capacity, so it’s expected to be capable of about 40 miles of range at it’s OEM end of life point. Replace it for better performance or not becomes the question, rather than, I need to spend 10k now or my ten year old car won’t run.

# 99 Leo Springs said “We’ve got to stop financing the nuts/terrorists who are using the money from our oil purchases to try to harm us financially or to kill us.” I agree completely. How do you quantify the economic gain of not having our kids and grandkids still making incursions into countries where people are trying to kill us using our own money. There will be more versions of EREVs based on what’s learned from Volt 1.0 - it’s a start, like cell phones in a brief case and the $20,000 VCR that my high school bought.

It’s also difficult to quantify economic multipliers and improvements in standards of living from NA jobs created by using NA energy and beginning to stop sending 500 - to 700 million dollars out of the US to pay for energy. How do you quantify lower birth defects, respiratory and heart problems, less health risks to kids playing and athletes training outdoors nationwide, from reduced air pollutants. Not to mention less sick days for asthmatics and other respiratory problems and potentially less expensive health care premiums for people that have health insurance. And how do you quantify less food crop and ornamental plant damage, does that count as reducing the costs of an EREV ? What about the benefit of a few more USA/Canada/Mexico jobs - does that too factor into the price equation.

We have the opportunity to lead the way for a world that has exploding levels of car ownership and is looking for creative energy solutions. IMHO there’s much more to it than, wow that’s a lot of money for a small car.

I apologize if this has already been said, but it took me a while to compose and I haven’t seen the recent updates.

[Reply]
Brian Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

#163 DonC - Thanks for that info! I figured that was the case….I was just hoping for a ‘miracle’ of sorts. I really like the car, but I would NEVER get a return on the investment. My daily commute is only 9 miles and is half freeway, half in-town. My mileage goes up while on the freeway, even traveling 70-75mph. But when in-town, for the last leg of my commute, it starts dropping off pretty noticeably….and that’s averaging only 35-45mph. Stinks. I tend to drive fast on the freeway anyway and have a feeling the Volt would get nowhere near the 40 mile mark between charges.

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

#156

I don’t see that this says anything about a plug in. It says they know no details about it and don’t even say if it will be in the USA. If GM has just released the production car and it won’t be ready until 2010…then this one will not be ready for a very long time…2009 would have or would be coming out now.

[Reply]
Statik Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Ok, even I’m tired of this thread now, lol.

I think one thing we can agree on universally is that there are waaaay too many variables on all of these subjects. Too many ‘ifs’ ‘ands’ and ‘buts’

[Reply]
Brian Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

#166 - John

It is not a plug-in. It is a hybrid. The new Insight will be released in 2009 with this vehicle following in 2010.

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1448/69/

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/20/production-honda-cr-z-hybrid-coupe-to-hit-europe-first/

[Reply]
John Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

#168

ah late 2009. Well good I hope they turn out to be good and progressing in the hybrid technology, not just a prius under the honda name. Thanks for the info.

[Reply]
Jackson Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

dannoman (#162):

Alas, latest information suggests the actual gas-only mileage may be as low as 50 - 60 (though “as low as” sounds funny to put in front of “50 - 60,” it becomes serious when comparing the Volt to some other cars expected to be out at the same time).

But we won’t really know what the claimed gas-only mpg will be until we read the Volt’s sticker on a showroom floor. I think we could be in for a pleasant surprise.

It ought to be possible to build the car you describe using ultracapacitors. With batteries, you need a certain size in order to get the power you’d need to meet peak demands — if you have batteries that size, it makes no sense not to plug them in. This needn’t be true for an ultracap; it could be much smaller, but still deliver more peak energy than you’d need to even out a power curve.

Ultracaps would have to come down significantly in cost for this to happen.

[Reply]
Hoang Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

I can smell the power companies will be hated just like oil companies today because of the demand is so high and the power price will be rokecting. Oh well, where don’t you see greed in America? Greed is always hidden everywhere and waiting for a chance to pop out.

[Reply]
DonC Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

#165 Brian

I think you’d never use any gas for commuting. Unlike gas cars, EVs get far better range in the city than on the highway. For 4-5 miles on the freeway you could probably go 100 mph and it wouldn’t matter.

At 100 mph which is doubtless worse than the worse case scenario, you’d be using about 35,000 watts. For five miles each way that would be less than half the pack. No big deal at all. Go 80 mph, the watts drop to 25,000, and you use about a third. Go 70 mph, watts drop to 20,000, and you use about a quarter of the pack.

[Reply]
John C. Briggs Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

#72 Steveland Harris

Sorry, I guess my post wasn’t clear enough. The $/KWH doesn’t impact the comparison with the refrigerator.

The GM (or EPRI) claim was comparing
1) A refrigerator
2) A Chevy Volt

The dollars are not needed for the comparison. All you need are KWH and that is not impacted by where you live. These guys got the comparison WRONG by a factor of about 6X.

For the cup of coffee comparison, you do need the dollars to compare. But in any case, I said that comparison was RIGHT.

The truth is, the Chevy Volt will be inexpensive to operate, so I don’t know why they are making false claims. It is not needed.

[Reply]
allan Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

I would rather pay money up front for a product made by people like me (US/Canada/Euro/Mexico) than for oil for people that hate us and who would rather see us dead.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

#116 Estero

“#70 N. Riley

Whatever the plug size and shape, won’t it require UL testing and certification before it can be used on the Volt?”

Yes it will be UL tested and approved.

[Reply]
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Before any communication between the Volt and the electric company can happen the electric company will have a lot of work to do. Most of the electrical plants are pretty old and no equipment is presently available for that kind of communications. Same with software. We are years away from that type of set-up. Just think of all the different electric companies (both public and private) around the country. It will take years and a lot of money to upgrade equipment and software to do that. What does the electric company gain from that except controlling when the electric vehicle can start to charge and maybe one day get vehicle to grid (V2G) available. That is not enough of an incentive yet. The only thing that would start that process is a government mandate. I hope we don’t get a government mandate because we have too many of them now and the government has a bad habit of mandating something and not providing any help (spelled m-o-n-e-y) in developing the hardware and software necessary to carry the mandate out. We would be much better off if the government stayed out of this end of the equation for the time being. Government can and should help the acceptance of hybrid and electric vehicles by giving tax incentives to produce and purchase them. It is in our national interest to do so. I suggest they raise excise taxes on fuel and use that money to fund the programs. Let the gas and diesel gallons help move us to the new fuel sources.

[Reply]
B_Schmatt Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Has anyone checked or know if their cities have different rates for peak and off peak?
I confirmed with PNM in Albuqueruqe NM that they have no rate differences for peak and off-peak / night day times.
Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing…..
So It does not matter for me at least when it is charged…I still will be paying the same high rate here in the Land of Enchantment…

[Reply]
Brian Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

#172 DonC - Sorry, I meant my current commute is 9 miles one-way (18 miles total), not counting going to lunch, etc. Still, I see what you’re saying. Thanks!

[Reply]
omegaman66 Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

No difference for me either.

[Reply]
RichardG Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Why not just increase the tax on imported oil to make up for the loss of revenue due to electric fuel. Would also speed up conversion.

[Reply]
Shaft (formerly Steve) Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

Statik at #38

From Toronto, right? See: http://www.torontohydro.com/electricsystem/residential/smart_meter/faq/index.cfm#q22

$0.027/kwh off peak, say $.031 with taxes. I suspect that this is the marginal rate, after you’ve paid for fixed charges like delivery etc.

At 8kw/day, that’s 8*.031*365=$90.52/year.

That’s 40*365=14,600 miles/year for $90.52, with taxes.

So, if you travel over 40 miles/day (including 40 miles AER after your Volt has warmed up in January), 365 days/year, and you charge your car overnight, this is pretty close to reality for somebody in your neighbourhood.

I agree that there are a lot of variables, and everyone will be different, but this analysis is reality for a lot of lucky people. Even a $40k Volt will pay for itself in less than 10 years.

[Reply]
John C. Briggs Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

LOW ELECTRICITY PRICES
I think we need to be careful to look at our electric bills not something on a website.
Here is the way it is in Massachusetts (USA) (from my bill)
Distribution 4.5 cents/KWH
Transition 1.2 cents/KWH
Transmission 0.7 cents/KWH
Renewable 0.05 cents/KWH
Energy Conservation 0.25 cents/KWH
Generation 11.2 cents/KWH
Total 18.0 cents/KWH

Plus $6.43/month connection charge.
So if you look up the rate, you might see 11.2 cent/KWH but it is actually 18.0 cent/KWH

So when people say they are spending 2 or 3 cent/KWH, I am a little skeptical because I am paying more than that for “Distribution” whatever that is.

[Reply]
Koz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

For those concerned about pure EV’s and power outages,

This is from someone who has been through prolonged power outages. Gas pumps don’t work without power either. Unless your stations are required to have generators, good luck with your gas vehicles. Getting gas was one of the biggest headaches after recent hurricanes. You might be better off with a solar panel and EV than a gas vehicle.

By the way, whole house generators cost a LOT of money. It would sure be nice to be able to use the Volt to power your house in an emergency. This has been brought up many times, but since it is such a no-brainer I’m bringing it up again!

[Reply]
Koz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Shaft,

Your given Static’s utility the shaft. You dropped a decimal placement, so the total should be $905.20.

[Reply]
Koz Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 5:46 pm

B_Schmatt #177

Some do, some don’t. I believe most offer it as an optional rate schedule but you may have to dig to find it. What a lot of rate schedules have that people may not be aware of is tiered rates (e.g. 1st x amount of KWh for y rate, x1 amount for y1 rate, etc.). The Volt will come in at their highest rate or push them into the next rate tier. This is one of the things that makes home solar such an attractive complement to the Volt in those areas.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

#147 Dave G asks “Honda is making a Plug-In Civic Hybrid? I want to know more. What is the electric range? Do you have a link?”
———————————————-
Honda is not making a plug-in, so far as I know. If I misled you, my fault. What they are doing is making an excellent Civic Hybrid of virtually identical dimensions and appearance to the Volt. Both the Volt and the HCH can be described fairly as “using very little gas.”

Of course, the Volt can operate gas free if trips are kept less than 40 miles per day, while the HCH cannot. It is a big advantage. But the Honda has some substantial advantages also, in that it is a proven, reliable, polished car with (presumably) a substantially lower pricetag.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

#157 Statik asks “Do you mean the Civic Hybrid…or the new Insight Hybrid at $18,500? Just curious. Either one is certainly a player in the market.”
———————————————————–

I meant the Civic Hybrid because of its virtually identical dimensions and very similar appearance, thinking that these would affect what people would compare. The Insight is a smaller car. But, perhaps, it will be more of a competitor because of the lower price. Hondas are such polished vehicles with such a good reputation both will be very competitive.

I also agree that that Prius will remain a strong competitor. I’m sure the Prius will retain a strong following. In my opinion, though, the Prius is not so much a comparison car for the Volt. That’s because the styling of the Volt is more mainstream (more like the Honda), while the Prius is more distinctive (like it or hate it) and more expensive.

If I were setting a price for the Volt based on market competition, I would try to match the Honda Civic Hybrid, and certainly not exceed it by more than $2K. That’s because the Civic Hybrid already is considerably more expensive than the plain Civic, with a corresponding decrease in Honda sales to much smaller numbers for the hybrid. That gives a good idea of market-acceptable pricing for cars of this size and mainstream appearance.

In my opinion (often wrong, I know) I don’t think there are many people so taken by electric drive as such that they are willing to pay a premium over another nice looking, well established, highly gas efficient competitor.

My impression is that people generally are trying to buy a car that fills their needs, that looks nice, that they will enjoy, and that they hope will have high reliabiltiy. They will like plug-in on the Volt, but there are downsides also (required service at dealer only, for example), so I am thinking this will largely offset for customers who see both.

Also (and sadly I think), the Chevy brand is down-market now for many people, or saying that differently, they would enjoy telling their friends they bought a Honda while they would have to justify a Chevy. It makes it harder to pay more for a Chevy anything as compared to a Honda anything. Maybe the Volt will change that, but that is the situation right now in my area among most age groups.

[Reply]
Frank B Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

John #6

Your math is incorrect. You said 10A at 12 volts would cost you about $1.50, which is not correct.

10A @ 120v = 1200 va 0r 1.2 KWH. 1.2 KWH at $0.14 per kwh = $0.168, about 17 cents per hour.

[Reply]
RB Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

#159 N Riley on the Volt’s charging cord.
———————————————–
Thank you very very much.

[Reply]
Grizzly Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

“Also aside from the financial benefits, there are obviously tremendous benefits to the country of not having to use imported fossil fuels, but being able to drive using the diverse portfolio of energy sources, coal, nuclear, natural gas, and renewables that our electric grid is powered through.”

*** *** ***

Why do so many forget about the other renewable that can power the Volt…Ethanol?? Since no EV regardless of range can currently or anywhere in the near future get us off oil w/o a liquid fuel supplement, I think this is extremely important.

[Reply]
Grizzly Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

Rashiid Amul # 4

“Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?”

*** *** ***

I couldn’t agree more. When you consider that the article states that 10 million EVs would use less than 1% of the grid’s capacity why would it even be necessary? We’re sure to add nuke plants and capacity before even that many EVs are on the road.

[Reply]
BluesBrian Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

PEOPLE, PEOPLE, PEOPLE: Lots of great posts!

RE #4 Rashiid Amul (and agreeing Estero #68)
“Why would I ever want data exchanged to and from the utility company for charging? Why is it any of their business what I plug into my 110 outlet?”

If you can charge you car at a lower rate, so they could do the proper billing.. would you care to share?

or, would you like to have a plug-in charge directly to your utility bill, or have some dude charge you plus his mark-up?

RE #27 MarkFLL
“could also be used to pay road tax?”

Latest thing off of eBay: data scrambler to cheat the taxman!

RE #15 NZDavid
“I pay a flat rate of 20.71 cents per KWh”

Yeah… and my tiered rate gets up to 36 cents per KWh.. how does that factor in the math? Oh, no, wait, I’m getting solar panels installed on my roof .. zero is still zero! (easy math!)

RE #31 John C. Briggs
John does the math…

We have to be careful.. remember “too cheap to meter”?
A little skepticism is healthy.

RE # 34 Firefly
“Where I live, electricity costs $0.12/per KwH during peak times and $.0.08 @ night.”
Nice.. my best tier is around 11 cents.. it goes way up from there. I’m not sure where you live.. but the payoff on my solar panels is much quicker, and I’m still in Northern California.

Solar roof topic: Mylar backed solar cells would probably be the technology. Although, they would probably have to be replaced relatively frequently. (less than five years)
We do have to move off the idea of “throw-away” consumer products. .. including cars!

RE # 64 Dale
more good math!

RE #151 Lurtz
“Honda CR-Z” .. Yikes! Too Cool!
http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/
(Hint: Make it plug-in!)

(Happy “talk like a pirate” Day!)

[Reply]
Jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

# 183 Koz. Great to bring this up. I haven’t seen it mentioned in a while and I think most people outside of sites like this don’t understand that possibility. If you look at the millions of people that lose power during large hurricanes using a BEV or a Volt for emergencies would make a huge difference for many. Generators in addition to being very expensive, typically produce the air pollutants of dozens of cars combined when operating.

[Reply]
Jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

# 176 N. Riley

Many utilities would like to change over to smart grid technologies sooner than later. PG&E in California has changed over many of their meters to handle semi smart functions already. INCENTIVE = it allows them to lay off all of the meter readers and probably get income and cut costs in ways I don’t know about yet.

[Reply]
Jeff M Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

I’m sure it’s been mentioned in the other replies which I don’t have time to read but…

… it’s deceptive to say it will cost $73 using “off peak” rates… at least here in New Hampshire, PSNH the default is single rate for anytime, no special meter(s)…. they do offer dual (peak vs. off-peak) metering, but it will cost you more for the service, as well as your peak rate is substantially higher than the single rate metering… so while it will cost you less to charge your BEV (Volt) it will cost you more for all your peak usage (especially in the Summer when the AC comes on during the daylight peak hours).

But I’d be plenty happy to go 15,000 miles even at a cost of $500 worth of electricity, that’s still only 3.34 cents/mile for the power (fuel), not to mention the savings on maint. that a BEV should provide.

[Reply]
Shaft Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Shaft@181 and Koz@184

Koz, the decimal placement is correct. It really is $.031 (3.1 cents per kwh) and $90.52.

However, it is true that my calculation is probably the most optimistic scenario for a Volt owner.

[Reply]
b_schmatt Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

Koz makes a very good point #185
As your usage goes up, there may be different tier levels of per kWh charged.
For Albuquerque NM the following holds true:
For the first 200kWh - 6 cents per/kWh
The next 500kWh - 9 cents per/kWh
Any additional over the first 700kWh 11.2 cents.
I did dig deeper and it is verified by a customer rep from our Service provider that they DO NOT offer Off-peak or Peak differences at all for residential users. No cheaper rates at night…

[Reply]
kubel Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

According to our bill, we pay around $0.1311/kWh with regular residential rates here in Michigan (DTE). Assuming 9.4kWh to recharge, 15,000 miles is more like $462. I’m not sure where GM is pulling $73 from. They are probably using time of day charging (here, time of day charging has a service fee, while regular rates have no service fee, so it only pays off if you are a heavy consumer of electricity) using the lowest possible rates.

Even my estimate of 15,000 miles @ $462 is low, because I’m not taking into account the fact that AC and heat will be used and will have an impact on electric range.

It makes me wonder- if they are playing with numbers here, I wonder how inaccurate or unlikely their predicted fuel economy numbers will be with the genset running.

[Reply]
CARNIVAL OF CARS: A Drive Around the Auto Blog Block for Saturday, September 20, 2008 | GT Boy - Car Blog Says:
September 21st, 2008 at 6:48 pm

[...] - you can drive a Volt 15,000 miles for $73. GM-Volt has the [...]
stas peterson Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:45 am

I for one do not want the enlightened ones with governmental powers in my knickers.

I am sad to see all together too many lefty wing-nuts make proposals right here, on these pages, to restrict this, that or the other “for thier own good”.

I don’t want some future lefty to decide that no one, save the exalted ones themselves, needs to drive more than 12,000 or 10,000 or 5,000. miles per year, and has the means to restrict your access to fuel, to enforce his pet nostrum.

[Reply]
habakak Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 am

Man, I struggle to find some value in any of the ‘yes-men’ comments on this board. Think about this statement: ‘Mr. Duvall stated that 10 million E-REVs will use less than 1% of the US electric grids total capacity.’ What’s important is WHEN that 1% is needed. At the wrong time, it could bring the grid down. If we have the capacity, why are there requests in summer time for people to turn the a/c int their homes down/off???

I’m all for the Volt, and I hope GM succeeds. But by not critically evaluating all aspects makes you lose credibility and ignore imporant issues. The Volt will be a niche market for a long time though, so there will be plenty of time to resolve the issues.

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jefro Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:09 pm

$73 sounds better than the $5K I pay now.

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Kristin Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm

I think this is a good idea it will cut costs way down and thats exacly what our economy needs

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Bohemian Aaron Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Mark Duvall and Frank Weber are idiots. They have no idea what our economy needs. They are only in it to make big bucks. If we stop using gasoline and use electric, electricity prices will freakin’ skyrocket. Even though it is better for the environment, many people will be laid off of the oil rigs and in the oil business. We should use hybrids. It would save peoples jobs and be better for the environment. Mark Duvall and Frank Weber are retarded and gay.

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kent beuchert Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 9:34 am

This country hardly uses ANY imported oil for producing electricity, and the imported natural gas we use comes mostly from Canada, which produces many of the GM cars. Years ago, as much as 10% of our electricity was from oil. The last figure I saw was that essentially zero percent is being used these days.

[Reply]
kent beuchert Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 9:38 am

At exactly 1 percent per 10 mllion Volts, that would mean 26% if every personal vehicle were a Volt. My estimate came out at between 14% and 20% for a nation of Volts.

[Reply]
Thomas Says:
June 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am

I am so excited for the Volt! $73 would cover a year of my driving! As it stands now I spend probably around $1500! So all cars will be electric and we will use solar power to recharge them!

[Reply]

Chevy Volt and the Electric Grid: Drive 15,000 Miles for $73

208 Responses to “Chevy Volt and the Electric Grid: Drive 15,000 Miles for $73”

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