CEO of Compact Power on the Current Status of Chevy Volt Battery Pack Development and Thermal Management
I had the opportunity to ask the CEO of Compact Power, Inc, Prabhakar Patil, who leads one of the two Chevy Volt pack making companies, some questions about current pack progress.
What is the current state of progress in the packs?
It is actually good. As you know, the packs we’ve delivered to GM continue to be tested and their performance has been very consistent with the simulation of what we projected it to be. So we are continuing the development of the packs even though GM has not made its decision in terms of the production source.
But I’m trying to make sure in case we are the chosen one, we don’t want to have time become our enemy. So we are continuing to do development looking at it from a manufacturing perspective, in terms of what it takes to make the designs more robust and more assemblable. So its kind of a different level because from a functionality point of view, we are pretty comfortable that the packs will perform the way GM and their customers expect.
GM said the newest vintage Volt prototypes have production intent battery packs in them. Does that mean that you’ve already created the final iteration of pack?
You do due process in any vehicle production cycle in that you sort of evolve the design. It was production intent when we did it the first time. We have to make the requirement that GM had established for the pack. So it depends on your interpretation of production intent.
If you mean is it being made using production tools and production processes then clearly not. But is it being made to meet the production performance requirements, absolutely but that’s what we started out doing when we delivered the first pack.
From the first pack of Oct 07 to now can you say how many generations of development you’ve gone through?
That’s sort of hard to say, but the one significant point is that the first pack we delivered was a dry pack (no cooling system). Whereas now all of the packs have a fully functioning cooling system. That’s the single biggest step forward because this pack will require a cooling system simply because of the density, the limited size of the pack versus and what it has to deliver in terms of energy and power. There is not enough room for an air cooling system, so it has to be a liquid cooled pack. We knew from early on that one of our greatest challenges was going to be doing the thermal management using a liquid cooling system.
Does the testing you’ve done in your facilities show the cooling system works well at extreme temperatures?
Correct. The cooling system provides the required cooling whether the cooling required is a result of heat being generated inside the battery or because the car sits on a hot asphalt in Phoenix and gets baked.
What about warming, say if you have the battery out in the freezing cold of North Dakota?
There’s a couple of things. First its a self correcting problem. At cold temperatures, the internal resistance of the battery goes up and that means it generates more heat internally which this warms it up. It will warm itself up and bring itself to optimal operating temperatures. Unlike hot temperatures, because extended exposure to high temperatures shortens the battery life, cold temperatures don’t have that kind of an effect.
In cold temperatures you have top make sure the batteries will have an adequate level of performance to run the vehicle.
Is there a problem with charging the battery at extremely cold temperatures?
It will work fine. An issue that has been raised in lithium ion batteries whether you can get into lithium plating. That happens if the battery can not discharge itself at a fast enough rate, and if the anode gets coated with lithium thats an irreversible loss of capacity. We don’t have that issue.
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94 Responses to “CEO of Compact Power on the Current Status of Chevy Volt Battery Pack Development and Thermal Management”
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September 8th, 2008 at 6:14 am
Cool. It sounds like they are not too concerned with heat or cold because they can handle both already.
For the cold, our Canadian comrades should be pleased.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:26 am
From Article:
The cooling system provides the required cooling whether the cooling required is a result of heat being generated inside the battery or because the car sits on a hot asphalt in Phoenix and gets baked.
———–
But when the driver gets in the car and drives away, isn’t the battery extremely hot? How does it cool down immediately or very quickly?
I’m confused on this point. I assume the battery won’t stay cool while sitting in the parking lot. How hot does it get inside a car in Phoenix in the summer? 150 °F ?
September 8th, 2008 at 6:30 am
This is good news. It would suggest a pure electric could function in severe cold environments, not requiring an ICE to provide initial driveline power or preheat the battery. Would think that the car might be doggy for a few miles.
No money for you, Oil companies (hostile nations).
September 8th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Hard to believe it was nearly a year ago when GM got the first battery to test! Those were the days. . . .
Rashiid, I was wondering about that as well. Like tyres heat is the enemy for a battery. Maybe the range extender would come on for while until the battery cooled down enough for use?
Then again, maybe it keeps itself cool during the day?
September 8th, 2008 at 6:37 am
So when will GM finally choose a provider? Obviously something is up that they have strung the two companies along so far.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:58 am
If heat is the real enemy, I would think that a cooling system will kick itself on to keep the pack from destroying itself, or as NZDavid said, the ICE may start up to cool the pack first.
And it gets plenty cold in January in NE Ohio…………..
And I think that GM is just working both companies for the best price. That is why they are holding out until the last minute.
JMHO
September 8th, 2008 at 6:58 am
The post says ” There is not enough room for an air cooling system, so it has to be a liquid cooled pack. ”
To me this was the most important sentence in the (excellent) interview. Positively, a liquid cooled system has the ability to keep the temperature at whatever is needed, without using a great deal of space. It provides a vital mechanism to heat in winter or cool in summer. Negatively, the need for plumbing implies that the vehicle has to have connections to the cooling system, sensors, pumps, radiators, similar to those needed for an ICE. That is, a number of complicated and failure-prone parts get added.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:02 am
#5 David L G says “So when will GM finally choose a provider? Obviously something is up that they have strung the two companies along so far.”
More and more it looks like GM will choose a supplier when congress gives them their handout (that is, guarantees a GM loan).
September 8th, 2008 at 7:20 am
A lot of the large AC motors are liquid cooled. The requirement for liquid cooling may not be unique to the battery.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:20 am
#1 Rashiid
Cool. It sounds like they are not too concerned with heat or cold because they can handle both already.
For the cold, our Canadian comrades should be pleased.
——————
This comrade is indeed pleased.
One thing that has gone off without a hitch would seem to be the battery, and being the most integral part of the whole thing, that gives me some comfort. Production delays and hitting deadlines can usually be fixed by throwing more money behind good people….development delays are a totally different ballgame.
I like the phrase, “in case we are the chosen one,” can’t say for sure why, hehe.
(Only thing I know about liquid cooled devices is that my gaming computer is liquid cooled…so I assume it operates in a similar fashion)
September 8th, 2008 at 7:21 am
#8
Interesting thought…GM could be holding up the decision of battery supplier until a decision is made on the “doing a good ol’ boy a favor” loan.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Ok, this isn’t topic related, but it is Volt specific :
(Disclaimer: my attendance has been spotty the last couple days with the Fannie/Freddie thing taking alot of my time…so if we have already had confirmation of Astra mules…disregard, lol)
Astra Mules Used for Latest Chevy Volt Tests
Recent reports indicate that GM’s highly-anticipated extended-range electric car, the Chevrolet Volt, has now entered its final phase of development. That means engineers are putting the finishing touches on the packaging of the vehicle. As a result, they’re now testing a more production-ready vehicle. Enter the Astra
“The Chevrolet Volt has begun its final development phase to integrate its complex electric, electronic and mechanical drive components into their final production form. Until now, GM engineers have been developing Volt systems in larger experimental cars, dubbed ‘Malivolts’ because they use the bodies and running gear of the recently superseded Chevy Malibu saloon. The task now is simplify and miniaturise the components to fit a smaller, Astra-derived package, including a 180 kilogram T-shaped battery pack that fits along the transmission tunnel and under the rear seat. At around 1600kg the Volt is substantially heavier than an Astra, but its overall weight distribution is closer to 50:50.”
http://www.saturnfans.com/cars/astra/astra-mules-used-latest-chevy-volt-tests
September 8th, 2008 at 8:04 am
#12 Statik
What’s up, northern cousin?
I can’t remember for sure but isn’t the Volt (production) supposed to be about the size of the Saturn/Opel.Vauxhall Astra anyway? I guess that will give them an idean of the handling ability of the Volt. As far as Compact Power, I still feel that GM should get a lock on both suppliers because even though they may only use one supplier for the Volt, they may need the other supplier for the next E-Flex vehicle.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:08 am
statik — you have mentioned a couple of times that you run your own web site. what web site is that? (I assume it is investment or financial related, rather than primarily automotive.)
September 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Statik
Thanks for the info on the AstraVolt. (but, of course I knew that already (g))
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
September 8th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Would a cooling system like this be sealed, or would it be like my (old) vehicles - the antifreeze needs to be changed and/or topped off sometimes. (I know, dumb question, but “Inquiring minds want to know”)
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
September 8th, 2008 at 8:50 am
I’m not sure why everyone is saying HEAT IS NOT A PROBLEM. Prabhakar Patil said in the interview that “extended exposure to high temperatures shortens the battery life”. It is easy to conclude from that statement that HEAT IS A VERY REAL PROBLEM, at least from the standpoint of useful life and how soon the battery pack might have to be replaced.
I can tell you from experience that a battery that may have a useful life of 5-7 years in many parts of the country only has a useful life of 2-2.5 years here in SW Florida. It would appear from Mr. Patil’s comments, that will not change with the lithium ion battery packs.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Estero@17
Isn’t the point of the article how they have put heat-related systems in place?
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
September 8th, 2008 at 8:58 am
#16 Tag
The coolant will have to be circulated external to the battery to bring it to the right temperature, e.g., through a heater or a radiator.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Off-topic. Toyota is developing sound canceling tech. Would work perfectly to cancel out the low-speed kid sirens that electric cars may need. See link below.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/noise-cancelling-toyota-crown-zeroes-out-sounds-at-head-height/
September 8th, 2008 at 9:10 am
#18 Tagamet
You’re right — the point of the article is they have put heat-related systems in place.
I’m not trying to throw cold water on anything or even be negative with my #17 posting or even this one. All I’m trying to do is to remind everyone that heat is still a problem, except perhaps when the vehicle is being operated. That fact seems to get lost reading the interview above and reading the other comments posted in this thread.
It is well that we do not forget those heat related systems mentioned in the interview only work when the vehicle is being operated, which is perhaps only a few hours each day. But, what about the many hours the vehicle sits parked somewhere; in a parking lot, at work, in a driveway or wherever. Heat is the enemy of lithium ion battery packs, just as it is with the VLRA lead acid batteries. The fact that the lithium ion battery needs a air conditioning system in the first place really drives home that point.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:14 am
All good news about the liquid cooling.. I am more concerned about keeping the battery warm (central Alberta Canada) as it gets to be pretty darn chilly from November till March… (-10 C to - 40 C over night and up to a balmy +3 - + 5 (if you are lucky) during the day.) I imagine when the car is plugged in overnight that there will be a battery warmer of some type.
Also… are any of you getting spammed on the mailing list?
I just got 30 GM comments with nothing but a bunch of garbage in it… ( 1 - 20 random charactors )
September 8th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Estero@21
I think we’re both saying the same thing. We used to put batteries in the freezer to keep them from discharging before that were used. Heat, on the other hand is merciless.
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
September 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am
#22 Ray
For whatever it might be worth, I’m not getting any of that spam.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:25 am
“because extended exposure to high temperatures shortens the battery life”
What does that mean speciffically for those of us who live in extreme hot tempuratures almost year round? Will we need to replace the battery ever couple of years because of the heat? This is going to be a big concern for me since I live in south Texas where it can get extremely hot and stay hot from February through November
September 8th, 2008 at 9:28 am
#21 Estero says “It is well that we do not forget those heat related systems mentioned in the interview only work when the vehicle is being operated, which is perhaps only a few hours each day. But, what about the many hours the vehicle sits parked somewhere; in a parking lot, at work, in a driveway or wherever. Heat is the enemy of lithium ion battery packs, just as it is with the VLRA lead acid batteries. The fact that the lithium ion battery needs a air conditioning system in the first place really drives home that point.”
. Because it is a recognized issue, it is possible that the Volt’s engineers will take some measures to deal with it, ranging from more insulation (very likely) to some active cooling that takes place even when the car is parked (less likely). On the other hand, especially with generation 1, maybe the approach will be limited to some advice to owners about things they can do to take care of their big beautiful battery, as much as is practical.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:31 am
#13 firefly
#12 Statik…What’s up, northern cousin?
I can’t remember for sure but isn’t the Volt (production) supposed to be about the size of the Saturn/Opel.Vauxhall Astra anyway? I guess that will give them an idean of the handling ability of the Volt. As far as Compact Power, I still feel that GM should get a lock on both suppliers because even though they may only use one supplier for the Volt, they may need the other supplier for the next E-Flex vehicle.
——–
The Volt is built/to be built on the Delta II platform. You are going to see the 2011 Cruze on it, 2010 Astra (and it’s endless sister cars), Saab 9-1, 9-3 and the Tacuma on it.
I would assume the current Delta platform is the most logical next step for the mules…although the article does not mention if they are using the current Astra platform, or converting some next gen Astra mules to serve as Volt mules. I would assume they are using current stock.
—–
#14 RB
statik — you have mentioned a couple of times that you run your own web site. what web site is that? (I assume it is investment or financial related, rather than primarily automotive.)
It is a investment/securities/financial opinion site (turned into a hodge-podge of alot of things actually)…well more like a club really for some institutional investors, analysts, etc.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I know that it’s slightly ot, but tomorrow they fire up the super collider which may result in a “shower of black holes, which may result in the Earth’s demise”
So much for a two year wait for the Volt (lol)
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
September 8th, 2008 at 9:38 am
#23 Tagamet
I remember doing the same, especially the batteries for my boat.
The only battery technology that seems to really address the heat and cold issues is the Firefly Energy battery that uses a carbon-graphite foam grid. Unfortunately, the full development of their 3D^2 technology is too far off to be considered for the Volt.
Yet, I sense we have not heard the last of the Firefly Energy technology. It is being reported by several sources that they are having discussions with 3 major automobile companies on 2 continents; their identities are unknown, as it should be. Time will tell how their technology plays out as it relates to hybrid and E-Flex vehicles.
Back to you — Be well!
September 8th, 2008 at 9:40 am
It isn’t so much the heat of use that worries me, it is the heat that it will recieve by sitting in the sun all day when I am at work, or in the driveway on the weekends. Are they going to “cool” the battery when it is just sitting there also?
September 8th, 2008 at 9:41 am
I am certainly no battery expert, but this sounds promising. Seems like they are on top of things. That means good things for the Volt and its customers. Go GM and Go, Go Volt.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:47 am
#28 Tag
I know that it’s slightly ot, but tomorrow they fire up the super collider which may result in a “shower of black holes, which may result in the Earth’s demise”
So much for a two year wait for the Volt (lol)
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!!”
——
I’m going to put in my order of a God Particle now. I don’t know why I want one…but I have to be the first one on the block to have it. Either that or when it fails I want a really super big fridge so I can stick those magnets to it.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:48 am
#28 Tagamet said:
I know that it’s slightly ot, but tomorrow they fire up the super collider which may result in a “shower of black holes, which may result in the Earth’s demise”
_____
I read the same article. The worst part is the “shower of black holes” may not appear until 4-years later somewhere in the Indian Ocean. By that time, it may be too late for all of us. Very scary!
We had these same scares with the Manhattan Project. Fortunately, the entire scientific community debated the issue before a final decision to test the atomic bomb. Are the same type of debates going on this time? Not that I can detect!
September 8th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Statik and Estero,
At least if they wait 4 years to appear we’ll have *seen* a production Volt…
With my luck, I’ll be the guy with the big belt buckle strolling by when they fire up those magnets. Not a pretty sight (lol).
It’s a Six BILLION dollar project, so I hope they at least find *something* (other than Black Holes). Estero, they really ARE debating the issue though. I saw a special about 6 months ago that addressed the concerns. It’s just that they decided to go ahead with it “”to see what happens”. Yikes.
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
September 8th, 2008 at 9:55 am
#34 Tag
Statik and Estero,
At least if they wait 4 years to appear we’ll have *seen* a production Volt…
With my luck, I’ll be the guy with the big belt buckle strolling by when they fire up those magnets. Not a pretty sight (lol).
It’s a Six BILLION dollar project, so I hope they at least find *something* (other than Black Holes).
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
——
I’m going to call it now: Stargates for everyone!
Worse case is that evil humanoids from the future finally have a origin point for their yet to be invented time machines to travel back too.
/too much listening to Stephen Hawking for me
September 8th, 2008 at 9:57 am
>> it is the heat that it will recieve by sitting in the sun all day when I
>> am at work, or in the driveway on the weekends
Guess we’ll all have to park on the lawn…
Boy, I sure hope not!!
Regards all,
MoM
September 8th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Statik said in part:
…I’m going to call it now: Stargates for everyone! …
Ok, so how does the EPA determine your mileage when going through a worm-hole…(lol)
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
September 8th, 2008 at 10:00 am
#37 Tag
Statik said in part:
…I’m going to call it now: Stargates for everyone! …
Ok, so how does the EPA determine your mileage when going through a worm-hole…(lol)
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
———-
I don’t know…but it’ll be lower than a Prius. Hehe.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:04 am
#26 RB said:
Because it is a recognized issue, it is possible that the Volt’s engineers will take some measures to deal with it, ranging from more insulation (very likely) to some active cooling that takes place even when the car is parked (less likely). On the other hand, especially with generation 1, maybe the approach will be limited to some advice to owners about things they can do to take care of their big beautiful battery, as much as is practical.
_____
I surely hope you are right. But, isn’t the “more insulation” option a double edged sword? While the insulation might help protect the battery pack from external heat, what effect would it have on the air conditioning system that needs to get rid of heat? I don’t know!
Perhaps one of the engineers out there could help out on this one!
September 8th, 2008 at 10:04 am
This is one of the main reasons I want my solar roof, to provide a small amount of power to run the water pump for the batteries without having to use the power OF the batteries or run the engine while parked. It makes sense to use the REASON the day is so hot to work against it. It may not provide much of a charge but a little 4-amp array is occasionally used to power my freezer during outages, so I know it can work.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Statik said:
I don’t know…but it’ll be lower than a Prius. Hehe.
Not THAT’S funny!
OT but I didn’t know bold type was considered shouting. I knew Caps was, but I use bold to set my remarks off from others. *New* nettiquette?
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
September 8th, 2008 at 10:08 am
#29 Estero
Here is the testing at 60 Celsius (140 F) for A123 batteries. Looks very good. Of course the batteries will need to be cooled but I don’t see a real issue with temperature. Keep in mind the batteries for PHEV and BEV applications are not like Li-ion computer batteries (unless you’re Tesla …).
September 8th, 2008 at 10:11 am
#30 TCook says “It isn’t so much the heat of use that worries me, it is the heat that it will recieve by sitting in the sun all day when I am at work, or in the driveway on the weekends. Are they going to “cool” the battery when it is just sitting there also?”
It may be that the battery will have a relatively favorable position, in that it is under the car (meaning in the shade with some amount of exterior air flow, so not heating nearly as much as the passenger space). That is, the battery cannot heat to more than the outside air temperature, and it will take a long time to due that because it is big and heavy and will no doubt be insulated.
However, there is no reason that the colling system cannot use active cooling, if essential, even when parked. After all, there is a lot of energy available from the battery itself, though it will discharge some stored charge if used in that way, and the vehicle will not have to “start the engine” in the traditional sense to do that.
The issue of battery heating and cooling is one where there is a lot of accumulated experience in other kinds of systems, perhaps spacecraft at the most extreme, so I’m confident it can be worked out in the Volt and will do fine. I see it as more of an interesting technical issue in just how they choose to do it.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:14 am
If it is liquid cooled, the liquid will provide some insulation from heat build up for a short period of time. Maybe enough for the Volt to be parked for several hours before the liquid heats up enough to stop insulating the battery from outside heat. This is certainly a question for specialists. We must have some on this site.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:17 am
#43 RB
After reading the comments of you, Tagamet and others and then thinking more about this issue, I agree with what you said:
“The issue of battery heating and cooling is one where there is a lot of accumulated experience in other kinds of systems, perhaps spacecraft at the most extreme, so I’m confident it can be worked out in the Volt and will do fine. I see it as more of an interesting technical issue in just how they choose to do it.”
September 8th, 2008 at 10:20 am
I noticed The Economist has an article about transportation — mineral fuels, hydrogen, electric — and has this very interesting quote from Bob Lutz.
“Bob Lutz, GM’s product supremo, reckons that within a decade E-Flex vehicles will be coming off the production lines at the rate of 1m a year. He says the battery pack, being developed for GM by CPI, a joint venture between LG and Continental, is ‘new core knowledge for the auto industry.’”
Seems important for a couple of reasons:
1. 1m vehicles a year in 10 years suggest more than one vehicle and gives an idea of the numbers he’s looking at. Before he’s said “who knows after that (year 2011)”.
2. You have a specific mention of CPI as the supplier of the battery pack — with no mention of A123 — further suggesting which of the suppliers GM has decided to go with, a conclusion reinforced by the mention of it as a “core technology”.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Estero - sorry forgot the cite in #42:
http://www.a123systems.com/#/technology/life/lchart3/
All the tests are interesting. They’re worth spending a few minutes with.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:22 am
#46 DonC
Interesting find…you got a linky I could have a ‘boo’ at?
September 8th, 2008 at 10:29 am
#48 statik
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12070722
September 8th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Even if CPI is chosen, A123 should be on the table for the next series of E-Flex vehicles coming behind the Volt. If not chose by GM, I am sure A123 or CPI will find a friendly welcome at Ford or Chrysler. The future seems assured for either of these two companies.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am
#33 Estero
“We had these same scares with the Manhattan Project. Fortunately, the entire scientific community debated the issue before a final decision to test the atomic bomb. Are the same type of debates going on this time? Not that I can detect!”
Actually there HAS been an ongoing discussion amongst scientists and it doesn’t look like there’s any real risk of the LHC spawning a slew of mini-black holes …
CERN reiterates safety of LHC on eve of first beam - press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR07.08E.html
The safety of the LHC - public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html
#35 statik
“I’m going to call it now: Stargates for everyone!”
I want one!!
Regardless of the mileage! 
#43 RB
“However, there is no reason that the colling system cannot use active cooling, if essential, even when parked. …”
I haven’t noticed my current Subaru doing it, but my previous Saturn SW2 and Mitsu Montero both would run the radiator fan(s) when the engine was off if the temp sensors indicated the need., so I would imagine the Volt’s battery could and would do the same (at least until the charge gets too low).
#46 DonC
“… He says the battery pack, being developed for GM by CPI. …”
Wow! Now, THAT appears to be a bombshell!
September 8th, 2008 at 10:36 am
If Toyota continues its plans to produce the Prius in Mississippi and have it coming off the assembly line in 2010, where do you think they will get their battery packs? Make them in Japan and ship them to the Mississippi plant? Seems more likely they will produce them somewhere in the U.S., maybe very close to the Mississippi Prius plant. And, since A123 is producing a battery pack for the Prius plug-in conversion, would it seem likely they could pick up that contract?
September 8th, 2008 at 10:43 am
#49 DonC
Hrm, hard to say if it is a Lutz quote or a ‘added opinion’ statment. Another ‘mystery of the universe’ for the Large Hadron Collider to solve tomorrow.
I’ll just post the snippet in case others are interested:
Bob Lutz, GM’s product supremo, reckons that within a decade E-Flex vehicles will be coming off the production lines at the rate of 1m a year. He says the battery pack, being developed for GM by CPI, a joint venture between LG and Continental, is “new core knowledge for the auto industry”.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:48 am
#51 psklenar Says
#33 Estero
“We had these same scares with the Manhattan Project. Fortunately, the entire scientific community debated the issue before a final decision to test the atomic bomb. Are the same type of debates going on this time? Not that I can detect!”
Actually there HAS been an ongoing discussion amongst scientists and it doesn’t look like there’s any real risk of the LHC spawning a slew of mini-black holes …
——-
Indeed. We are mostly just funning. I hear the number 1 in 50 million that something really bad could happen…but I’m not qualified to say whether or not that is a qualified guess, lol.
I found a basic synopsis of the LHC on youtube just now, if anyone wants to be brought up to speed in about 9 minutes. It has a little unecessary rant/cursive at 8:50 as fyi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPxYdObyJ2A&feature=related
September 8th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Surprising as it may seem, I read that Economist article a few days ago.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR
September 8th, 2008 at 11:00 am
#52 N Riley
If Toyota continues its plans to produce the Prius in Mississippi and have it coming off the assembly line in 2010, where do you think they will get their battery packs? Make them in Japan and ship them to the Mississippi plant? Seems more likely they will produce them somewhere in the U.S., maybe very close to the Mississippi Prius plant. And, since A123 is producing a battery pack for the Prius plug-in conversion, would it seem likely they could pick up that contract?
——
I think they will initially have to ship them…at least for a few years. I only know of Mitsu honestly assessing battery plant sites in America right now.
The standard hybrid pack (NiMH) is about 100 pounds and is not a intrusive shape like that of the Volt.
The Plug-In Prius is reported to have a 5kW pack (given this is the most commonly referenced size as to qualify for maximum incentives). Extrapolated the data from similar larger lithium packs would put it in the 150 pound range…again the pack looks to be rectangular in shape and most likely rear seat (or behind) mounted.
I would think the cost of shipping the pack is negligible. Especially considering they are currently shipping the whole car at the moment.
—–
I think the point that A123 gets this contract (or more likely are chosen as a partner –Mitsu and Toyota seem to like joint partnerships) with Toyota is not unreasonable. I think A123 is seen as too unstable, or too unproven for GM to stake their ‘moonshot’ on…but Toyota, who already has a redundant source to make batteries, would not be nearly as worried.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am
#56 Statik
Your comment was in the general direction I was thinking. Sounds logical for Toyota to ship them for a short time. They will be pressed hard by Honda’s pricing on the new Honda Insight hybrid and may need to find a “local” manufacturer for their Prius battery packs for the Western Hemisphere market. A123 just seems to be more likely, as you said, to be chosen by Toyota than by GM. I expect both companies to contribute greatly to the advancement of electric vehicles. It seems to be a win- win situation for both companies, either way.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am
#55 Tagamet
The quote about CPI jumped out at me at the time I read it a few days ago (normally it’s a weekend read). My brother was a corporate spy for some period. I really have never asked him what he did, but my guess would be something along the lines of finding what I think this is — a small inadvertent slip — and adding it together with other pieces of information to get an idea of where the company which is your competitor is heading.
I don’t think Lutz meant to say anything. He’s discussing a different topic, he knows the supplier they’re going with, and he forgets to be as careful as he’d be if addressing the battery supplier issue directly. The author of the article doesn’t seem to pick up on the importance either. (I think Statik’s point was that it wasn’t confirmed directly, which is true. My guess is that if asked it wouldn’t be).
The one million number was also interesting.
Interestingly enough I had no idea the Economist was online until Statik asked me for a cite.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Nice overview of the battery competition, from Popular Mechanics:
New Battery Player Creeps in on Heated Race for Chevy Volt Power
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4261451.html?series=19
(hard to believe the professor who’s credited with discovering the lithium technology’s name is John B. Goodenough?!) RUFKM?
Also, noticed my other post with links disappeared. I guess this internet stuff is touchy sometimes and won’t quite let you get “the picture”.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Did anyone notice that the economist article stated that CPI is a joint venture between LG and Continental. CPI is just a subsidiary of LG unless there has been a new deal I haven’t heard of yet. Lutz certainly knows that LG and Continental are the two competitors, not a joint venture. I would say it is an all too common reporter induced error.
As to heat issues with the battery, there has been speculation on a solar roof for the Volt, which would provide enough power for active cooling of the battery pack and maybe enough air flow through the cabin to keep it at ambient temps instead of roasting.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I have to wonder if GM has followed normal protocol and held a formal debriefing with both bidders secretly. GM could have done so in order to give CPI/LG an immediate production go-ahead, while perhaps also promising A123/Conti a similar large-scale order, but with a delayed go-ahead scheduled at their own discretion to avoid any SEC or other objections re: the forthcoming A123 IPO. Secret, staggered go-aheads of dual suppliers are not unknown, but of course, this is just speculation. Is this plausible based on your experience, Statik? Other than regards an IPO, I can’t imagine there any laws requiring public disclosures of bidder selections?!?
September 8th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
1. I am getting all those nonsense spam e-mails as well. More than 50 today alone. Hey lyle - you better check your spam filter!
2. As I said in #6 above, I would think that if the battery pack gets too hot, it would start a cooling system to lower the temp below pre-set “pack damage” temperature points.
3. If the LHC does open up worm holes, just think how fast the commute to work will be!!! I could probably drive to Florida on a single battery charge - Now we are talking!!!
4. I will just be glad when we know for sure WHO has the battery contract….
September 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Questions I have for the Volt Engineers/Planners:
1. Those battery packs look like they’re going to be buried in the belly of the car. What’s the process to do maintenance on the battery (car goes on lift, pack drops down?)?
2. Can you replace bad cells individually, without pulling the whole pack?
3. How upgradable/expandable is the volt. i.e. if much improved batteries or electronics become available 3 years later, how easy will it be to change these components out?
As cars become more like motorized personal computers, question #3 would seem to be quite relevant . I hate spending a ton of money on a computer only to find out it’s outdated one year later and I can’t install upgrades.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Back on the main subject, #39 Estero raised an interesting item
“But, isn’t the “more insulation” option a double edged sword? While the insulation might help protect the battery pack from external heat, what effect would it have on the air conditioning system that needs to get rid of heat?”
The effect of insulation is to cause the battery temperature to be more rapidly influenced by its liquid coolant and less rapidly influenced by the battery’s external environment. That is true for heating and for cooling, though apparently cooling is the greater issue.
Adding insulation does diminish any opportunity for achieving a desired temperature by outside air flow. That is basically what was given up when GM decided to have an internal fluid-based temperature control system. What is gained in return is the opportunity to control both heating and cooling over a wide range of temperature, at the expense of using some energy and adding some complexity. That is, the Volt is not going to be as efficient or have as high an AER with this choice (though one can hope the change is small), but it will be much more versatile and capable in operating in places with high or low temperatures.
I have no doubt that GM engineers evaluated the alternatives and decided that this one was the best of the lot.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
#61 nasaman
For a publicly traded company a major supply deal would have to be disclosed. While in the IPO process A123 would have to disclose any information from a “secret” meeting immediately. So I doubt there would be any secret meetings.
OTOH GM has no obligation to disclose because the supplier has no impact on its financials. Therefore it could tell A123 “no” on the Volt and “yes” on the Vue at the same time. I’d think something along these lines is quite possible unless GM has fallen in love with the manganese spinel battery packs. If A123 is still in the mix, and you have to think it would be given the uncertainties of the chemsitries, this would seem more likely than a secret meeting.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
#59 Carcus - article is an interesting read. I took the time to also skim through the 20 comments. Those guys wander and call each other names as bad as we do. (Like, “I don’t care about you guys in California with your self imposed electrical problems.”)
September 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
The NEW VOLT!!!!
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/blogs/marty_blog/2011/2010-chevrolet-volt-first-production-photos/
September 8th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
DonC@65
Excellent explanation. Even I understood it. Thank You
Drivin98@67
Interesting. I wonder what a “Media information site” is. I need to take some time to digest that picture
Jim I
And when you got to Fla, it’d be before you left - so you’d be even younger (g).
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!
September 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
#67 drivin98
Great catch! Really really good. Nice looking car. I like it!
September 8th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
These production Volt pictures are floating around on the WEB. Say it isn’t so.
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-chevy-volt/1023897/
September 8th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
64, RB…….
——————————————————————————————————————————
Insulation can be made SO effective that (whether the external environment is sizzling hot asphalt or a -45 deg ambient temperature) ….the amount of energy needed for either cooling or heating is extremely small. It’s a cost tradeoff. On spacecraft we use “MLI” (multi-layer insulation) which, with the vacuum of space separating the MLI layers, is like several vacuum jars “in series” —MLI handles +/- 300 deg ambient temperatures, and greatly reduces the amount of energy needed for the strip heaters also normally used.
An earth-based analogy is a vacuum jar, or dual-pane windows with a low-thermal-conductivity inert gas captured between the panes. I’ve suggested GM consider using a thin, evacuated, double-wall chamber slightly larger than the battery’s base welded inside and integral to the Volt’s underbody aerodynamic panels, as a “stainless steel vacuum jar” to insulate the pack from sizzling hot asphalt.
This would supplement conventional insulation & liquid cooling, of course.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Drivin98, I just took a peek and made NO effort to verify anything… but ya might have scooped it there, bud!!
September 8th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
FYI, the autoblog photos are better resolution than the carconnection photos, even though autoblog references carconnection.com. File size 140kb vs 30kb.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
On the new volt pictures,
Wish those suits would get out of the way so we can look at the car. Each shot has two “grills” I’d rather not be in the picture.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Overall, not too bad as long as you don’t compare it to the concept design.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
The Tesla uses a electronic control system for managing the Liquid cooling system. Hopefully the Volt will have something similar. It would be to complex as some has suggested to route this into the ICE coolng sytsem. The entire battery management system should be independant from the ICE.
Quote from a Tesla site.
“To keep temperatures under control, the electronically controlled liquid cooling system uses a secondary loop in the cabin air conditioning system to provide chilled coolant circulated throughout the ESS. A resistive heater can heat the batteries in extreme cold conditions.”
September 8th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
# 41 Tagamet:
Bold type is considered lecturing.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Jim I #62 I think the theory was black holes not worm holes. Been gone a week so regarding new Insight posts: Which would you rather have when oil is rationed & Russia cuts off supplies from Asia; a gas using Insight/Prius or a 40 mile petroleum free Volt. There is something to be said for being prepared. Just like the 34 MPG 14K cars 2 years ago are now selling for 22K now, a 35K Volt would be selling for 50K or more if the crap hits the fan, not to mention gen 2 Volt will have mileage reporting built in so State & Fed can tax you based on miles driven to recoup those fuel taxes they are not going to get. I have food in my garage I hope I won’t need, a shot gun I hope not to every be forced to use and in 2 years a volt that will guarantee me transportation. For the rest of you I suggest you get a good bicycle & tone up those thighs in case the oil spighot suddenly turns 40% closed. As far as thermal Mgmt. most places that have high heat also have excellent solar power supply so built in high efficiency solar cells should help with these concerns. In Cal. heat is a concern for most people who do not live on the coast, IE Inland Empire of So. Ca. They will have to address it or will eat it on warranty returns, not my problem so long as there is a company to return duds to.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Easiest way to prevent battery overheating while parked:
“You can have any color you want, as long as it’s silver.”
September 8th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
#71 nasaman — on insulation
Fascinating, and a good suggestion to GM. I appreciate there are cost factors that have to be factored in, but it would be great to take advantage of some proven high tech.
September 8th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
The big unknown is whether the battery cooling system has a maximum standby temperature that it maintains by demand-cycling the circulation pump, radiator fan, and (depending on outside air temperature) the refrigerant compressor while the car is off (and whether it will do this if not plugged in).
This “setback” temperature can be higher than the operational setpoint but close enough that the cooling system can quickly make up the difference while the car is running. If no setback is maintained, then there may be a cool-down cycle that must be completed before the car can be “shifted into gear”.
It would make sense to have a standby setback control on the battery temperature because otherwise the initial cool-down cycle would drive the equipment sizing (i.e. this would be the peak cooling load), resulting in a larger cooling system with lower efficiency in normal driving mode.
A standby setback mode would consume energy while the car is off but save a more energy and possibly dwell time while the car is on — unless the ground surface cools off substantially before the car is next started. Perhaps the standby mode would be locked-out from sunset till sunrise and whenever battery temperature is decreasing.
We also still don’t know if the battery shares a fluid and/or heat pump with space cooling and heating.
For Volt 2.0, consider radiant heating and cooling via fluid coils in the seats and a dedicated outside air system with induction diffusers to maximize HVAC system efficiency, maintain acceptable interior air quality, and generate additional air motion/mixing for comfort. You definitely want to eliminate as much supply air volume as possible, both to reduce fan energy (pumps are way more efficient than fans for the same heating/cooling load) and shrink air ducts (space is at a premium in cars).
It’s relatively easy to design a heat transfer system that meets specifications. The hard part is dialing in the optimal control sequences and selecting or sourcing the most efficient components. Vehicular air-conditioning, for example, has always been done with belt-driven reciprocating compressors. The Volt will have a least one electric motor-driven compressor for battery cooling as well as space cooling and heating (since there won’t always be waste heat from the engine).
If these loads are combined, it may be reasonable to select a larger scroll-type heat pump that will be more efficient and reliable than the reciprocating machines. Assuming 120 kW peak discharge power and 90-95% discharge efficiency, battery cooling capacity should be sized for 2-3 tons (1 ton = 12 kBtu/h), which is right about where scroll compressors become feasible.
September 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
RB #64, nasa #71:
I wouldn’t put any low-U insulation underneath the battery. Might as well get some free convective cooling from the underbody airstream. I would, however, put a low-E radiation barrier under the battery. Most of the heat gain from hot asphalt, especially while parked or stopped, will be radiative rather than convective. Many metallic-based low-E coatings and films have the added advantage of high thermal conductivity to aid passive air cooling.
The other thing is that many kinds of low-U insulation are prone to catching fire and producing toxic smoke…
September 8th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
@Amul
“For the cold, our Canadian comrades should be pleased.”
Indeed we are. -35C can take a toll on anything and anyone. And thats in the Southern provinces!
September 8th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
mein green
Thanks for the netiquette help.
Be well
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR”
September 8th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
NO WORRIES,
The VOLT has one extra batttery “built in to the cost”…
So by the time we southerners lose our batteries b/c of high temps and replace them under warrenty, we will be ready for the VOLT 3.0 or even 4.0. I am in line for the 4.0 now
September 8th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Yet another possible application for solar cells! At the hottest part of the day when the sun is beating down on the asphalt and bringing the temperatures of the battery pack to dangerous temps, the solar cells can operate the cooling system to keep the hottest temperatures from being seen by the batteries. The solar cells can also perform battery activities like temperatures monitoring, owner notification in-case the batteries are experiencing dangerous temperatures, etc.
Solar cells are not just for making the car move!!!! I wish people would understand that point. Solar cells can do many things from pre-cooling of the cabin, keeping the batteries in good condition (as well as keeping them topped up), allowing advanced vehicle subsystems like security and Internet connected functionality.
Don’t hate solar and quote me that the kWh cost is more than that of coal generated plug-in power. We all know that!!!!! Can you naysayers at least agree that what I talked about may just put more value on those mobile solar cells? Would that kill you? Would that keep you from fighting so hard to keep from having solar cells as an option (even after being assured that it will not affect the delivery date of the base car), even if it’s an aftermarket option for solar power lovers?
September 8th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Im game…put solar cells, pocket pop up wind turbins…
Hey just make it work. No reason why the VOLT cant have a 2LT version with dual solar cell collectors and whatever other options can be included with the bells and whistles.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
#61 nasaman
I have to wonder if GM has followed normal protocol and held a formal debriefing with both bidders secretly. GM could have done so in order to give CPI/LG an immediate production go-ahead, while perhaps also promising A123/Conti a similar large-scale order, but with a delayed go-ahead scheduled at their own discretion to avoid any SEC or other objections re: the forthcoming A123 IPO. Secret, staggered go-aheads of dual suppliers are not unknown, but of course, this is just speculation. Is this plausible based on your experience, Statik? Other than regards an IPO, I can’t imagine there any laws requiring public disclosures of bidder selections?!?
——-
Hiya Nasa…I am actually coming back to this thread because the other one has turned into a free-for-all bloodbath.
Normally, this type of dual deal or ‘conpensatory secondary deal’ would not be disclosed, until such time as a impact would be felt directly to the bottom line. There is no disclosure needed as required by law, as it has not been realized in any fiscally relevant manner. This is similar or akin to GM now currently knowing who is getting the contract, but not making that information public to even the winning contractor, they are under no obligation to do so. (Even though they probably have pre-written contracts with both parties that only needs their ’signature’ on the winning bid if you will)
However, the rules pertaining to IPOs are significantly different especially when entering into the initial pricing valuation and then the public offering to the market.
It is expected/required that you not only give fair assessment of your company’s position currently, but further to that it’s forward looking risks/rewards. (As a example, if you check out A123’s disclosure statements you can see that have disclosed that their dealings with B&D is…well, strained to put it mildly. This is not something one would normally see).
The greater question I guess is, would A123 follow the letter of the law? It is a gray area to be sure and one that would not easily or likely to be litigated if suspicions arose. I guess you’d have to ask yourself what advantage would they gain by not being forthcoming…would it be worth the risk?
September 9th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Tag #34
“It’s a Six BILLION dollar project, so I hope they at least find *something* (other than Black Holes). ”
Gee, we could have paid for it with three weeks of Iraq war funding
September 9th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Glenn@89said:
Gee, we could have paid for it with three weeks of Iraq war funding
Always back to the war. Surely you can post a second thought. Maybe something about the topics.
Tag
LJGTVWOTR
September 9th, 2008 at 10:36 am
A discussion of the LHC and possible black holes is on topic?
The war DOES have relevance to the larger discussion.
September 9th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Since electricity isn’t free, any idea how economical this car will be to drive ?
Are there any estimates on how the electricity costs for this car compare to gas costs for a comparable car ?
Just wondering, I assume that there must be a true economical advantage here or GM wouldn’t be doing it, but how would driving costs compare to a 35MPG gas sedan ?
Just a very obvious thing that I would need to know before having any interest in this car at all.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
#92 Dave
Get your electric bill. Divide your total cost by your kW-hr usage( avg home around 1000 kW-hr). Now you have your cost per kW-hr around 10 cents maybe. The Volt uses something like 8 kW-hr to travel 40 miles. That’s less than about $1 to go 40 miles.
Then you get into the extended range and Chevy likes to talk about 50mpg more or less.
The big feature of the Volt is 40 miles gas free - and extended range capability for when you need it.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Martin Eberhard, co-founder and former CEO of Tesla Motors, calculates that his car costs 3.6 cents/mile in electricity. He talks about the many variables to that kind of calculation on his blog.
http://teslafounders.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/ev-juice/
Considering that the Tesla Roadster is a pretty powerful car, I’d guess the Volt’s electric cost will be half that, if not better, especially if you live in a state with cheap electricity.
By comparison, I figure that my Honda Fit costs about 13 cents/mile for fuel.