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Revenge of the Honda Insight

September 4th, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors, Hybrid

Just as the Volt is called by some a Prius-killer, so too has the new low cost hybrid Honda has been planning to unveil.

Today they made it official.

The new hybrid will be called the Honda Insight, just like Honda’s original hybrid, which beat Prius to market but wound up being discontinued due to poor sales.

The new Insight will take design cues from the fuel cell FCX Clarity, sport seating for five, and will be value priced. As per Honda’s CEO "this new Insight will break new ground as an affordable hybrid within the reach of customers who want great fuel economy and great value."

Honda expects to sell 100,000 per year in the US and will unveil the car at the Paris Auto Show in October. Launch is planned for 2009.

No plug.

Source (Honda )

Posted by: Lyle

89 Responses to “Revenge of the Honda Insight”

Anthony BC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:48 am

No mention of date? Looks like a Prius!! Zzzzzz!

Come on GM, get the VOLT to market!

GO GM, GO VOLT for 2010!

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Chaim Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:48 am

No plug…not interested…

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Eric C. Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:49 am

It looks a lot like a Prius in my opinion. Glad to see more hybrids coming to market though, plug or not!

EDIT: There also seem to be some visual cues similar to the Volt, such as the accent lighting under the headlamp.

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DonC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:50 am

Dave G – nice catch and cite to this story in the last thread. My response was similar to the others here. Namely: OMG it looks like a Prius!

I wonder what the “sporty” hybrid will be like? Great to see all these alternatives.

I’m guessing the front tires on the production car won’t actually be six inches larger than the back tires.

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Ash Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Few thoughts on Volt going forward, not related to the post above

1. Can we change the battery after few years of use, if the new battery pack has better performance, does the car perform better? We can do this to computers today, and computer BIOS(i.e the software which hooks up battery to laptop) recognizes the new battery and takes advantage of the enhanced capacity. This will be good to know, as I have a feeling the battery technology will grow exponentially going forward.

2. What is next, is there a Volt 2.0? Can we get the next Volt in 4 Wheel drive, Unlike Prius, the Volt has only motors running the wheels, so they can just add another two motors and make it 4 wheels drive. This in near impossible to do in a Prius.

3. If we have to write up a Moors law for the battery technology, what will it be. How long does it take for battery capacity to double?

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THOM Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:54 am

Who calls the Volt a prius killer?? The volt is a fantasy the prius is a reality. Pretty hard to kill a car in production with a concept on paper!

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Eric C. Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:55 am

#5 Ash,

Keep in mind that the current Volt does not have wheel motors. Maybe you’re not eluding to this, but I just wanted to clarify.

Regarding individual wheel motors, my understanding is that these would not add a large percentage of unsprung weight (which affects handling) provided that the federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS) would remove the requirement for mechanical brakes. While this seemed obvious 20 years ago, regen braking can accomplish this now. Even if the battery can’t take all the charge, the motor can still be used to do all the braking.

Perhaps down the road, when the standards catch up to the latest tech, we can have an option like this, which would also make for marvelous ABS and traction control systems.

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Schmeltz Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:56 am

I just wanted to be the first to say it for this post…

LJGTVWOTR!!

P.S. This car really does look like a Prius! A low priced hybrid is going to be tough competition for everyone out there, especially our friends at GM working on the Volt. Granted the 2 cars are in different leagues, but still.

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Schmeltz Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:58 am

#6 Thom said:
“Who calls the Volt a prius killer?? The volt is a fantasy the prius is a reality. Pretty hard to kill a car in production with a concept on paper!”

Ummmm, yeah, you’re new here aren’t you?

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nuclearboy Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

A prius with a more agressive front end and presumably better performance and lower cost. This thing will sell very well.

Not to me, however, I still want a Volt or a Cruz if the volt is not within my grasp.

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Dave B Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Chaim @ 2;

I couldn’t agree more; no plug? no electric-only mode? what is Honda thinking?

That’s fine and dandy that it’s a cheaper hybrid, but I could care less–it still sips petrol.

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DonC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#7 Eric

Good point about the brakes. However, you would still have the expense of four motors and the issue of whether they’d be durable enough given they wouldn’t be protected by the suspension.

Then again, compared to the Volt those challenges don’t see so large, do they?

#5 Ash

Nothing like Moore’s law. Much more incremental. There are, however, a lot of new possibilities for doubling the energy density in the next five years.

As for getting better performance by replacing the pack, the car is designed for a certain level of performance. Replacing the pack wouldn’t change that. You would, however, be able to get better range. So in this sense, yes, you could get better performance just like what happens when Cal Car adds Li-ion batteries to the Prius.

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Lunoir Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Honda don’t want to miss the boat… They basically took prius plans and rebranded some design and forgot the plug… that car is not yet on the road but my guess is that they’ll make it on time to allow them to say me too when the time comes…

IMO if they come with this later than next year it’s DOA like the previous insight.

Volt is a way better bet! and with competition my guess is that VOLT price will have to shrink…

LJGTVWOTR!!

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FME III Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Moreso than affecting the Volt, I expect the born-again Honda Insight will make inroads on Toyota’s market share by stealing Prius customers.

On price alone, GM will lose some Volt customers, too, but without a plug, it’s an apples-to-oranges comparison between the two cars.

The Volt and its 40 mile electric-only range is the true game changer for this industry — not a Prius clone, nor a plug-in that only goes 10 miles on electric.

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Campy Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

Honda has a winner here, at $18k they are going to sell these things faster than they can make them.

It’s an excellent car for the next 4-5 years until plugins hit mainstream.

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Lunoir Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

@FME I Agree. Can’t compare this with VOLT in the specifics but as you mentioned bot will be available for sale within few years.

Most “non car enthusiasts” may consider the VOLT as too pricey to even consider and by then making a political statement will decrease in importance like those who choose diesel over gasoline… They by the diesel because they like the car (VW).

The plug is an other story. Some see it as an issue if they can’t plug. For me I see it as an option I can choose to never plug if I don’t want to and still get a compact to mid size “techno” car and/or mildly luxury car for that price. It has still good gas milage and brign that “social rank” statement people often do with their car. At least the VOLT give you choice.

The insight will just be a me too car… Like: Oh! you’ve got that honda’s prius…

LJGTVWOTR!!

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DC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

If this car truly comes in at $18,000 and has reasonable MPG specs (in the 50-60mpg range) they will sell these things faster than they can make them.

Put it up against a $40,000 Volt with a fantasy release date? A $20,000+ difference, I mean, you’ll have to drive A LOT to save that much gas.

And for those that say well its not about that its about (insert Arab/Middle East bashing phrase here) – thats all fine and good, and if you have $20,000 to blow on an idealistic purchase, I’m happy for you. I’m guessing 99.9% of America is not in that position in this economy. The Honda hybrid will look like gold to them.

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Aspherical Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

I wonder if there will be a natural gas hybrid option a few years down the road. Honda has done a great job with the Civic GX and it would be nice to seem them put the same technology in other cars (take the new Insight, for example). I would strongly consider buying a natural gas hybrid (if it is feasible or course). I just love the idea. I would get the Phill package and you can fill up with natural gas at home!

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GXT Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

The release date of the Insight has been 1st half of 2009 for quite some time.

So for anyone thinking that Honda is somehow copying or affected by the Volt when it comes to the Insight, well, the timing just doesn’t match. This car has been in development for too long.

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Bernie Torbik Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

The new Insight http://automobiles.honda.com/insight-hybrid/ is an attractive, well-designed car. The front end is very similar to the current Honda Civic hatchback that is sold in Australia and Europe.

Given Honda’s reputation for building quality vehicles, it will be a formidable competitor to the Prius and the Volt. It isn’t clear from Honda’s press release whether or not it will be able to use ethanol, but if so, there are several cellulosic ethanol projects coming on line in 2009-10 that will make it even more attractive.

The Volt’s design is very good but the price may be too rich for most consumers. If so, products like the Insight are excellent high fuel economy alternatives.

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Tagamet Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

A) No plug, no sale.

B) it’s looking like the areo for the first round of hybrids is going to spawn a lot of lookalikes.

C) No mention of mpg?

D) THOM isn’t new here. He’s john1701a (g) A rose by any other name….

Be well,
Tag

LJGTVWOTR!!

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DaveP Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

#5 Ash:

You raise good questions. I suspect that the batteries will not be “smart” batteries like laptop batteries are (which have a chip in them advertising their capacity, etc. to the laptop) but will the capacities and such will be programmed directly into the charging and control systems in the vehicle. Is that the best way to do it? Probably not, but it’s probably the easiest for the first one out the door.

I, too, want a 4WD \Volt (with or without wheel motors) but I don’t see that happening unless the first generation \Volt is successful.

Actually, Toyota adds rear 4WD to the prius drivetrain all the time, except not in the prius. Check out the 4WD Hybrid Highlander, for example. They just add an electric motor to the rear wheels and power it from the battery pack or MG1 (Motor generator 1). The HSD system in the prius is not so dissimilar to the \Volt as it seems. Sure, there’s a mechanical power transfer through a differential and transmission but it can use MG1 as a engine powered generator and MG2 as a motive force for the car, similar to the \Volt. Add MG3 to the rear wheels and there you go.

That’s clearly not what they were thinking when they designed it (it didn’t have MG2 on the original) but after they added MG2 to shrink the battery pack (and hence make the car profitable for them) that option became viable.

Anyway, back to the insight. Cool. I’m a little surprised they would even hint at different sized tires on the front and rear after all the blowback they got on the NSX tires (EACH of the 4 tires were unique and expensive) but Honda does understand the advantages of using optimized tires.

One thing’s for sure, with different sized tires that guarantees it will have one of those air compressors/can of sealant like my Accord Hybrid has.

Not sure what that would do for Canadian sales… I’d heard that they actually had to put a real spare in the Accord Hybrid for the (couple dozen or so sales to Canada because they required an actual spare tire.

So, does unequal tire sizes == US sales only in NA?

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ThombDbhomb Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Outtasight!

Keep those fuel efficient cars coming.

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GXT Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

17. Lunoir,

With the Volt you aren’t getting a “luxury” car for $40,000. The extra cost is going to the drivettrain, not leather and 10-way adjustable seats.

$22,000 (+tax+financing) seems extremely expensive for a plug option that you will never use.

As you think that is a fair choice I am not surprised that you have missed that the price IS the story, not the plug. When the plug is affordable THEN the plug will be the story.

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I still want the Volt. Only 12 day sto unveiling. GO VOLT! GO GM!

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Pino Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

It’s a Prius with an H on the front grill. Not discrediting the Prius, I actually almost bought one this year; but come on with the design already. I think some company in China is pumping these bodies out and reselling them to the auto companies to be branded. Anyway, did anyone catch the news lately on that dude out in Georgia (I think) that turned his Prius into a plugin and double his mileage? I’m sure he’s not the first but maybe the first to get some publicity. His trick…. About 3 grand worth of lead-acid. He had to change the suspension on that thing. Where is my Cherry Red Metallic Volt?

Pino

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Jackson Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

This strikes me as much worse news for Toyota than for GM. The Volt just isn’t in the same class, and now, just as Toyota begins working on a “me too” plug-in Prius, along comes Honda with a cut-rate knockoff of the original Prius.

Strange days may be ahead for the Toy Auto — I shall weep not.

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VancouverJon Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

DonC #4: I expect that the sporty hybrid is along the lines of the concept they unveiled in 2003 http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2003/auto/imas/

Edit: I was wrong, I hadn’t read the Honda press release. The sporty hybrid is based on the CR-Z concept http://www.caranddriver.com/news/auto_shows/2007_tokyo_auto_show_auto_shows/concept_debuts/honda_cr_z_concept_auto_shows

I think this is a big deal for a lot of people. An affordable traditional hybrid is a great way to affect a lot of people. It won’t be for me, because I am willing (and hopefully able) to be a little more altruistic in my purchase. But a lot of people would buy a Prius if it was cheaper.

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satan Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Couldn’t agree more with GXT
The Insight is predicted to be less than half the price. Americans have little brand loyalty when it comes to the dent in our wallets. I love GM, but they need to get back to the 30,000 pricetag on the volt to compete.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Chaim #2
Dave B # 11
Tag, #21

Agreed. No plug. No sale.

But why no plug? Sounds silly to me.

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Arch Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Now this story says the batteries are a Joint venture.

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12070722

Take Care
Arch

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Rob Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

DonC #4
“OMG it looks like a Prius!”
Not everybody likes the Prius’s shape, which is intended to achieve a low drag coefficient. I’ve averaged 43 MPG with my Prius in the 2.5 years I’ve owned it.

“I wonder what the ’sporty’ [Honda] hybrid will be like?”
It’s a two-seater called the CR-Z. If you Google it a lot of info will come up.

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Jackson Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

I read the article, it doesn’t say $18,000 or $22,000, it says “cheaper.” It doesn’t give mpg. And of course, it has no plug.

I’m telling you guys, this is actually good news. If Toyota was hoping to partly subsidize the cost of the plug-in variant on sales of the base Prius, they may have just dropped their ice cream.

I don’t believe that the Prius/Insight market will end up being the same as the EREV/BEV market. Honda offers little competition to the Volt in the near term, and this type of hybrid will either go away or occupy the most basic level of car ownership in the long term. In the ultimate objective of energy indepenence, it can only help.

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Murray Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

The more the merrier !!!
The affordability alone should make this a nice option for some people once it becomes available.
I applaud it….BUT…..I still must reiterate (and plagarize) cause I just love this term….

Its a NERD SHOE !!!

(DISCLAIMER: no offense intended to anyone willing to get an Insight or a Prius and/or may consider themselves a bit nerd-ish… and even I myself consider the term somewhat self-depricating….but I like it and it makes me laugh)

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Brian Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Who cares who THOM is or isn’t and who cares how long he has or hasn’t been coming to this website. I am just as big a fan as most of you, but the fact of the matter is that until there is a car that says “Volt” somewhere on it sitting on a dealers lot with a buy me sticker, it’s not killing anything, especially a Prius.

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Dave G Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

#32 Rob Says: “I’ve averaged 43 MPG with my Prius in the 2.5 years I’ve owned it.”
————————————————————————————-
Hi Rob,
Great to know we have a Prius owner we can ask questions. The Volt looks like it will have a very similar gas engine to the Prius, both Atkinson cycle, the Volt with 1.4L, the Prius with 1.5L.

Here’s a question. Have you driven the Prius any at high altitudes? If so, any noticeable differences in engine performance?

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john1701a Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

>> D) THOM isn’t new here. He’s john1701a

No. And there are a million more of us too.

Sorry, but Prius has been on the road since 1997, and the differences between the ASSIST and FULL and SERIES type hybrids is nothing new. Each targets a different consumer/business base, which is pretty easy to see once design differences are understood… making some comparisons pointless, since they each serve a unique market.

The important part is that all hybrids increase the battery production.

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KUD Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Would I buy a Insight?

Yes if there wasn’t going to be a Volt.

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Tagamet Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Brian@35 said:
Who cares who THOM is or isn’t and who cares how long he has or hasn’t been coming to this website. I am just as big a fan as most of you, but the fact of the matter is that until there is a car that says “Volt” somewhere on it sitting on a dealers lot with a buy me sticker, it’s not killing anything, especially a Prius.

Relax Brian. No one is attacking you OR the Prius. It’s a neat little car – it’s just not a VOLT. If it helps, this is a Volt site – pros and cons – mostly speculation, but just the same, it’s a Volt site.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!

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noel park Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Just one more compelling argument for LJGTVWOTR!

I feel that to say any more would just be to repeat the obvious so, for once, I will just shut up now.

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john1701a Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

>> No one is attacking you OR the Prius. It’s a neat little car – it’s just not a VOLT.

Little? How is one suppose to take that, knowing Volt is smaller?

Of course, the problem comes from comparing a FULL hybrid to a SERIES in the first place. Now this topic adds ASSIST to the mix. How many really understand the differences?

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Tagamet Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

john1701a@41
said in part:
>> No one is attacking you OR the Prius. It’s a neat little car – it’s just not a VOLT.

Little?
How is one suppose to take that, knowing Volt is smaller?

LOL. Does the term hyper sensitive ring a bell? I’m not even going to get into the Freudian bit. Would it help if you knew that I helped my daughter buy her first car – a neat little Prius.
/sigh
Be well anyway,
Tag
(Noel, you had the right idea).

LJGTVWOTR!!

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MetrologyFirst Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Toyota’s got a problem now, not GM. Those who care not about car styling can fight amongst themselves between the Prius and this Honda clone.

This just emphasizes the vacuum in the market for a REAL alternative. Somerthing that gets the mileage, is electric first, AND has good looks to go with it. Something DESIRABLE, not just functional! The Volt is still squarely aimed at that market. The Volt needs the styling hook to distinguish itself from these homely machines in the eyes of those much less tech savy (MOST of the auto buying market).

I truely can not believe Honda built literally a Prius clone. The Japanese manufacturers are really trying to force the American public to believe styling is unwarranted and unnecessary in the future.

The real question is: What took Honda so long to challenge Prius? It’s not just a valid question for the domestics.

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Gary Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

The new Insight is better looking than the Prius… the best looking product to come from Honda the past few years…

As for the missing plug, Honda is an engine building company that they happen to surround with lawnmower assemblies, motorcycle chassis, car bodies, etc. If they change their cars to electric drive, that completely changes their identity.

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john1701a Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

>> The new Insight is better looking than the Prius

That means nothing to the new purchase decision, since the new Prius will be available roughly the same time as this new Insight.

>> I’m not even going to get into the Freudian bit.

I will. The blog format here contributes to that. It’s further proof that constructive discussion is difficult when posts not in a threaded forums.

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john1701a Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

>> I truely can not believe Honda built literally a Prius clone.

It all depends on how much the operation of the two different hybrid types makes a difference to consumers.

Look at how closely GM and Ford vehicles have resembled each other for decades. This is basically just the first occurence of it in the hybrid world, though size & propulsion-system do vary more.

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Statik Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

If I was Honda…and I could choose all the names in the world, the very last one I would have chosen would have been ‘Insight’ The problem with the last one was lack of specific identity.

It does seem to me that both this car and the Volt are taking on some ‘Prius-like’ shaping.

#44 Gary

“The new Insight is better looking than the Prius… the best looking product to come from Honda the past few years…”

This is very true, but to be fair your statement should read “The new Insight is better looking than the OLD Prius…”

Alot of people in this thread are saying Toyota is in trouble/scared based on camparing this car to the existing Prius. I think it’s hard to make a call like that until we see what the next gen looks like (I’m not talking about the 09 refresh either)…and what kind of mileage it gets.

All that being said, I think there is room for all comers in this segment. Demand is outstripping supply by a very large margin right now.

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Rockyroad Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

If this Honds costs less than $25,000 and gets over 50 MPG … it will be tough to sell the Volt at $40,000 no matter how little gas it uses … even if it uses none for the first 40 miles.

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dagwood55 Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

MetrologyFirst observed, “Toyota’s got a problem now, not GM.”

I don’t know about that. GM lost $15 billion last quarter and has no vehicle comparable to the current Prius or the upcoming Insight II. With up to $10K price cuts last month, it managed to move just 1600 of their two-mode hybrids and BAS vehicles as opposed to Toyota’s 20,000 hybrids that sold at MSRP and, most likely, above.

The Insight II, at long last, provides a decent challenge to the Prius. However, Honda is vague on details. It seems likely the Prius is larger inside and, unless Honda’s worked some interesting magic, The Prius’ HSD probably beats the Insight’s revised IMA on economy. The Prius’ also has an enviable track record for reliability and, while Honda is no slouch in this regard, a good track record is a good thing to have.

The only real problem would be if the market for hybrids in the US turns out to be limited to 200K/year. With $3.75 gas right up the street, that seems extremely unlikely. Since Toyota was planning to build an extra 200K per year on their own (unit volume increase due in 2009), it looks like their judgement is that the US will buy many hybrids, when priced in the $20K ballpark.

The real bad news, again for GM, really, is in the details. From the press release:

“Honda achieved a significant cost reduction in Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) components which should make Insight the most affordable hybrid vehicle to date.”

Toyota, earlier this year, announced that they were able to cut the manufacturing cost of the hybrid components in the Prius III (due about the same time as the Insight II) by 50%. Yes, the Prius III will likely remain more expensive than the Insight II.

However, here’s the thing… Honda and Toyota are achieving big economies of scale with their vehicles, while GM continues to struggle to get Volt #1 out the door. Honda and Toyota will continue to drive down manufacturing costs over the next year. Toyota will introduce a US plant to build Priuses in the US, starting in 2010, which is a cost-saving move (given the declining value of the dollar).

The Volt is late and is going to be hitting the market as an expensive and hard to find novelty against vehicles which are just hitting their stride in mass-market acceptance and cost-effectiveness.

It’s not Toyota that has the problem.

MetrologyFirst also wrote, “The Japanese manufacturers are really trying to force the American public to believe styling is unwarranted and unnecessary in the future.”

Define “styling.” As it happens, I like the way the Prius and the Insight look. And you can not argue with the practicality. It’s the American public itself that’s abandoning the vagaries of “styling” in favor of design that works.

Moreover, viewed from the side, the Malibu looks remarkably like the Camry which looks remarkably like the Altima which looks remarkably like the Malibu. The Accord’s sharp beltline crease gives it a slightly different look and the Fusion’s angular shape sets it off a bit more. Between the Malibu, Camry and Altima, the grilles and taillights differ. Big whoop.

American manufacturers have often attempted to differentiate their products with meaningless style cues that yield no practical benefit and no real, long term aesthetic or functional improvement (taillight shapes, fins, opera windows, vinyl roofs, chrome features).

I’m done chasing that. Give me a good car that runs well, has a clean, effective shape, best-in-class cargo and passenger handling, great fuel economy, controls that fall readily to hand and interior comfort suitable to someone 192cm tall.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Gary @ 44 said:

“As for the missing plug, Honda is an engine building company that they happen to surround with lawnmower assemblies, motorcycle chassis, car bodies, etc. If they change their cars to electric drive, that completely changes their identity.”

BE CAREFUL Gary! I said the exact same thing a few months back and got tore a new one.

I absolutely agree with you. That is why Honda has poo-pooed electric drives.

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DonC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

#28 Vancouver Jon #32 Rob

Thanks guys for the reference to the CR-Z. I think that may be the third car in this shot. I like the idea of a hybrid sports car.

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/857/search/19588;photo?q=08insightconcept&s=honda

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DonC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

#49 dagwood55

I think GM would LOVE to have Toyota’s problems. No question about that.

You have to love GM though. They do swing for the fences and succeed more fail. The Volt will give GM some opportunities. If they stick to the knitting for once and keep the bureaucracy at bay they might make it.

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RB Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

A couple of other Automotive News points: The Honda will be for sale in April, 2009. There will be 200K world-wide, with 100K shipped to the US (non made in US).

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Jeff Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

“new low cost hybrid”

Even though it is not direct competition for the Volt, I would like to hear about more models to keep everyone honest on pricing. Especially with terms like “blank check” in the air…that term is usually reserved for government…not a business.

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Jim I Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

dagwood55 #49:

” … while GM continues to struggle to get Volt #1 out the door”

Struggle? How do you figure that? The development process of this vehicle is moving along very quickly for this industry………. Five or six years from concept to showroom is the norm. This car should be out in less than four.

And as I am seeing here more and more, the opinion of many people seems to be “no plug, no sale”, and I am one of those people.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Dagwood @ 49:

Your right, Malibu, Camry, Altima, et al. look the same. I wouldn’t drive any of them, BTW, for that specific reason. No creativity.

Your right, I can not argue the practicality, as you see it, of the Prius/Insight clones. Mini vans are also practical and look all the same. I wouldn’t drive them either.

I choose not to give up my styling tastes for marginal practical gains. Most people agree, else we would not have all the available auto options out there, and we would all be driving the same thing. Even the car makers realize that in the past.

The issue is that if I want to drive electric in the near future, I want to keep that choice. I would even give up some efficiency to have it. GM needs to be reminded that there is a LARGE population of people out there, just like me, that will buy electric vehicles that have desireable styling as the centerpeice of the car’s design, rather than a residual of the functionality goals.

I would prefer an auto future of choices and creativity, rather than homogeneous maximum efficiency. I would like to keep that latter image of the future as a caricature in the science fiction movies.

Dagwood, you gave us a litany of things you want in a car. I’m sure you will find that car from Toyota. Go for it. I’m not saying you can’t have it.

Here’s mine: desireable, sporty styling, cheap to fix, good fuel economy, probably in that order. “Practicality” is not on that list. I’m just not that high maintenance nor is my family. When we smile while we all ride down the road together, its because we are having fun driving, not because we are being “maximum efficient” and practical. THAT is what I do not want to lose and there is no logical reason that an electric car can’t fill that need just as well as yours.

I, and many others, just want the choice to prove it.

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Ted in Fort Myers Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Finally a subject I know something about. My honda Insight with CVT tranny gets average since new 60.6 MPG for 40,000 miles. It has a 3 cylinder gas engine in the IMA. The one in the Honda Civic hybrid is 4 cylinder and gets less that 45 MPG. I suspect the new Prius-like Honda Insight will have the same 4 cylinder gas engine in the IMA and will get no better than 45 MPG just like the Prius. It is Prius competition for sure but with no plug and no all electric miles I can hardly wait to trade My 2006 Insight in for a new Chevy-Volt. You go GM.
Take Care,
TED

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Jeff Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

#41

Of course, the problem comes from comparing a FULL hybrid to a SERIES in the first place. Now this topic adds ASSIST to the mix. How many really understand the differences?

I would guess TOO FEW people understand the differences in design. Hybrids are still a small percentage of the vehicles on the road; so it is very difficult (if not impossible) to compare real world aspects of all types…especially when one or two are still in the design phase.

Even more…the consumers must trust the auto manufacturer upon purchasing a hybrid…or any new tech. Overall, it appears that Toyota’s track record for supporting their hybrids for the last 10+ years has been acceptable. Will GM provide equivalent (or better) support for their hybrid vehicle owners? It would helpful to hear numerous responses from GM executives on this question.

Of course, some of the early adopters may thrive on risk…I apologize in advance for taking some of the thrill away. However, I understand that most stunt men mitigate their risk.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

Also Dagwood,

At the huge risk of leaving myself open for ridicule, (not that I care), the current cars my family tool around in daily are a 2003 Grand Am GT 30th anniv. and a 1998 Olds Aurora.

Sporty, distinctive styling, good fuel economy, cheap to fix. The Aurora might not be cheap to fix but 10yrs and 100,000 miles later, I haven’t really had to fix anything, so to me, it is. The Pontiac, at 125,000 miles, has been bullet-proof.

Cars dripping in what you call “meaningless style cues that yield no practical benefit and no real, long term aesthetic or functional improvement”.

OK, whatever. But we are having fun being so “unenlightened”.

Cheers!

(Quote)
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Tag,
Tell me what this means. I know it has something to do with trolls but I can’t seem the figure it out.

LJGTVWOTR

Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

By the way the 2006 Insight was discontinued because it had lightweight body panels and other high tech traits that cost so much to produce that the profit was marginal on this car. It existed to get you into the Honda dealers to sell you a civic that they made a much higher percentage of profit on. If you were a mfg company and had a product that cost $20,000 to make and you couldn’t sell for any more than $22080 and you had a product that cost $9000 to make and you could sell for $17000 (civic) which would you make more available?

When I bought my Insight there were 4 for sale in the state of Florida. How many Honda Civics you recon they had for sale in the State of Florida. There were about 30 on the lot of my local Honda Dealer in Fort Myers. Multiply that by several hundred dealers and you see why sales of the Insight were a little sluggish.

Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
JEC Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

If you really compare the profiles of the Volt and the Insight, you may be surprised just how similar they are. The basic aerodynamics demand this profile, otherwise you sacrifice with more drag.

If the person (I forgot the name and am to lazy to search….) who photoshopped the concept Volt with the production Volt, would do the same with the Insight and current Volt, I believe many would say “WTF?”

JMHO

(Quote)
VOLT-eLectrified Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

The car looks like typical Japanees design, copy the guy with the best and sell for less. I but you could not hold a conversation on the interstate the road noise would be so loud. Cheap plastic everywhere. However, Americans (for the masses) could care less about the US industry, the mideast crises or anything outside of their personal agendas. I bet Honda sells as many as they can put in the lot. So many people just want to get from point A to point B the cheapest. Here in NC mopads are becoming increasingly popular. That is desperate measures in my book.
The only real good thing about the Honda in my opinion is it helps the MIdeast EAT sand and SUX oil !!
GO-VOLT

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

Ted@60
LJGTVWOTR=
LET’S JUST GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD!!
Be well,
Tag

LJGTVWOTR

(Quote)
RichardG Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Just for info: Honda is basically an American company. Over 80% of its global sales are in the US. As you probably know, Mr. Honda started adding little gas engines to bicycles just after WW2. When he out with his first car, the “Big 3″ Japanese auto companies tried to put him out of business (see, we’re not the only ones).

Most of Honda’s auto production is here in the US. They have a HUGE campus near LA.

(Quote)
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Thanks Tag and I agree. There is a Brian on the other thread who managed to put down a deposit on a chevy Volt at his local Chevy dealer. I am trying to get him to tell me which dealer in which city.

Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Tag,
Surrey B.C. Canada, Flag Chev Olds has taken a deposit on a volt. I wonder if I can get my Chevy dealer to take a deposit. Surry BC Canada is a little to far to travel.

Take Care,
TED

(Quote)
Glen Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

That is about as sexy as a floor freezer.

(Quote)
nataraj Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

- #65
- Over 80% of its global sales are in the US.

Not sure where you got it.

http://world.honda.com/news/2007/c071219Year-End-CEO-Speech/

Out of 3.76M unit sales WW, US was 1.55M in 2007. Doubt sales($) would be 80% in US.

(Quote)
Carcus Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Off topic, (mostly)

Question:

Name the car produced by a major manufacturer that uses a 1.4 litre engine to turn a generator that supplies power to electric motors that drive the wheels?

Answer:

wait for it . . . . .

The Nissan Cube e4wd

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/09/man-in-the-box-driving-the-2008-nissan-cube/

Kind of a strange thing that doesn’t seem to fit into any category, but does share at least a couple similarities with the volt.

(Quote)
rob Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I’m going to need another car before 2011 when Volts *might* be plentiful enough to be purchased by a mere mortal without dealer “market adjustments” and other pricing shenanigans.

This should bridge the gap nicely and looks to be the $$/mpg champ in the near term. Bag on Honda’s hybrid system if you like, but the 5-speed Insight is still the hypermilers vehicle of choice.

(Quote)
GXT Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:19 pm

48. Rockyroad,

It will apparently be sub $20,000.

Honda’s goal is to have a sub $2,000 premium for their hybrids.

I haven’t heard any mention of what kind of MPG one could expect. 50 seems reasonable though.

(Quote)
GXT Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

Gary @ 44,

“As for the missing plug, Honda is an engine building company that they happen to surround with lawnmower assemblies, motorcycle chassis, car bodies, etc. If they change their cars to electric drive, that completely changes their identity.”

I have no idea what any of that means, or what you are getting at, but you forgot “jets”.

Building jets would have redefined Honda more than building the second version of the insight some decade after the first was introduced, don’t you think?

And yet the world continues to turn.

(Quote)
RichardG Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Nataraj #65

Sorry, You’re right. 80% of Honda’s global sales are autos. 53% of total revenue comes from US. Before the dollar weakened so much it was over 60% of total rev.

(Quote)
KC Eric Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

Good news. The more the better at the EV table, plug or no plug. I obviously think the Volt is a fascinating car, but I think I’ll probably end up going w/ a pure electric as I don’t have much need for a range extender. When can I get me an electric Camaro? That car looks great. Which reminds me — I just drove by a Dodge dealer the other day and saw some of the new Challengers. Wow what an awesome looking car that is. I’m off topic horribly.

(Quote)
Darius Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 3:26 am

That for sure. In case GM try to sell in Europe Volt modification for 40 000 EUR – 50 000 EUR it will be out of question. Nobody will by. May be some bussines moguls will be interesting for such stuff but nobody else. MAX limit 30 000 EUR and even in that case it would be niche car and not mass product indeed. It would be much better option Honda Insight for 15 000 EUR and approximately the same fuel economy for longer distances and withhout electrical plug complicated arrangements.

My prediction is taht Plug-ins will be mass product no earlear 2015.

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 6:51 am

As Tagamet says:

A) No plug, no sale.

B) it’s looking like the areo for the first round of hybrids is going to spawn a lot of lookalikes.

LJGTVWOTR!!

(Quote)
JonP. Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 7:50 am

I’m ready for a Volt, but this may be my stop gap till i can buy one in 2012!

(Quote)
jrcase Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

The new Insight is targeted at 60 mpg. A price target of $18,500.00. Another article stated 65 mpg. Here is a good read on it:

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news08/next-energy-news9.5.08c.html

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

The press release did not really tell us much. We don’t know what kind of mileage it will get or its cost. We think it will cost less than $20,000, but that is probably with no options, no a/c, etc. It will be an interesting car to look at and drive when it finally reaches a showroom. Toyota may be bringing out their newer Prius about the same time.

Edited: I went back and looked at the Honda press release once more. They did not state if this was going to be a 2009 or a 2010 model year Insight. My guess would be a 2010 and the release date probably around April 2009.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

#6 Thom said:
“Who calls the Volt a prius killer?? The volt is a fantasy the prius is a reality. Pretty hard to kill a car in production with a concept on paper!”

I think the Volt has been a Prius killer as far as I am concerned. Last summer I wanted to buy a Prius, but held off because I wanted a Volt instead. So, the Volt killed that sale. Of course, I was hoping they would get the Volt out to the market by the fall of 2009 as a 2010. That did not happen and it will probably be 2011 or 2012 before I will be able to purchase one because there will not be one available in my area. So, now I am back looking at the Prius or the new Honda Insight.

(Quote)
Herm Perez Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Reports say the auto transmission will get 57/56mpg and the manual transmission 61/68mpg. Cost estimated at $18,500..

Note that the insight system is different from the prius, in the prius the gas engine can be stopped and the car will run on electricity only.. in the insight the engine is turning (valves closed, no gas injected) when the car is running on electricity. The one to beat will be the plug-in Prius whenever Toyota makes one.. or you can get the Hymotion A123 pack and upgrade the Prius to a 40 mile electric range car.

(Quote)
carcus Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

Ted in ft. Meyers,

60 mpg over 40,000 mi is pretty impressive. Can you tell us a little insight on your insight?
1. Maintenance issues ?
2. What kind of mileage at 75 mph on the interstate?
3. Is acceleration acceptable?
4. Ever get out of Florida and drive it in any hills/mountains?

(Quote)
noel park Says:
September 6th, 2008 at 11:59 am

#81 N Riley:

Quite true, when you put it that way. Actually GM has been doing me a favor by dangling the Volt carrot out in the future. It gives me emotional cover to keep driving our old car, which is by far the cheapest option for us, even a today’s gas prices. Just by chance, we moved about half the way to my wife’s work about the time the real spike hit. So now we are driving the old Impala about 5-6K miles/year instead of 10-12. At that rate, the car will last another 13 years, and our gas bill has remained about the same.

Even so, this Honda deal scares the he** out of me. If Herm Perez is anywhere near right at #82, they will sell every one they can make. Then what happens to the Cruze, et al? What’s the old saying, “It felt like someone just walked over my grave”?

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
September 7th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

I read the 1st 30 or so comments and I’m surprised (maybe a later comment addressed this)….

Am I the only one who thinks it sounds crazy for Honda to name this the same name as their discontinued 2 seater? Aren’t they worried about the confusion? This sounds like a completely different car, different frame, a 5 seater, different skin, etc… anyone who didn’t like the original Insight may not even look further.

And yea, as for the Volt being a Prius killer, that’s Lyle’s wishful thinking. Volt and Prius are not only in two completely different price categories, the Volt is only a 4 seater, but also have two different target consumers… on top of that, the Volt won’t be made in any meaningful quantity for at least another 4 years even if they were competing for the same customers.

Folks have to remember that it’s going to take a bit longer to completely electrify general transportation, so any high mileage vehicles, be conventional ICE, BEV’s (pure or series hybrids like Volt), or other hybrids, is going to help us wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

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I. Ronnickly Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

It’s the wind tunnel making the cars look alike. I saw a [non-hybrid] Civic next to a Prius I thought it was a newer Prius.

Form don’t follow function for you guys, hunh?

It’s TOTALLY brain-dead, if a car review lists a vehicle’s weight, not to have the co-efficient of drag in there. It’s like physics.

Demand that your purple-prose car reviews tell the vehicle’s cD.

Long live Phil Knox, and basjoos. [and google]

(Quote)
dagwood55 Says:
September 9th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

#55, Jim I, “Struggle? How do you figure that?”

Last fall, Lutz, who was “personally” supervising the Volt project, said they’d have a driveable Volt “by Easter Bunny time,” and made some other, fairly obnoxious remarks, dissing Toyota’s vehicle. Turned out they did NOT have a driveable Volt by Easter Bunny time. They haven’t appeared to pick a battery supplier (at least, it looks like they haven’t told the winner) and they only recently picked an engine. They keep advertising the wrong body shell.

This is not the way a healthy project should run. And they’re doing this over a decade after others successfully launched hybrid cars. And they’re now begging for loans to make tooling for new-tech vehicles possible. I’d say “struggles” is entirely justified.

Toyota’s got another round of cost reductions coming down the pike in their vehicle:

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0518895920080905?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10216&sp=true

This is bad, bad, bad news for GM.

#59, MetrologyFirst,

I see no reason to ridicule your choice of car. You’re happy? Fine. However, I wouldn’t endorse those as class-leading in reliability and I doubt that I’d want one. But that’s not ridicule; tastes and expectations differ.

That also doesn’t mean that I can’t point to certain Pontiac design elements and say, “ugly.” I do note that the ‘03 doesn’t have the ugly plastic cladding that many Pontiacs had. That thick stuff with big cutaways for door clearance that looked really, really cheesy (Pontiac was not alone in this, I walk by a recent Chrysler with the same affliction every day and even a recent Honda). The ‘03 has an improved, cleaner look.

As it happens, I like the front-end treatment on most Pontiacs (e.g., I think the Vibe is better looking than the Matrix) but Pontiac has an unfortunate tendency to do weird things with the grille and intakes, sometimes putting in too many (e.g., Aztek) or making them look bizarre (a late Firebird got a very unfortunate “snout” treatment, looks like nostrils frmo some sort of dinosaur).

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forgetGM Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

Google: “who killed the electric car”

Insight is going to own Volt, sorry to burst everyone’s bubble.

oh, heh, “bubble”… pun intended…

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Billigflüge Says:
November 10th, 2008 at 10:10 am

It looks like a prius, that’s right (it’s ugly). I just wonder why you guys over there are so keen on hybrid and prius!

(Quote)

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Revenge of the Honda Insight

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