GM vice chairman Bob Lutz has told reporters that the automaker has indeed decided on which of the two battery making teams they have chosen to supply the Chevy Volt battery packs.
Lutz would not specify which company team that is, LG Chem/CPI or A123/Continental. High ranking sources within those battery companies advise me they they don’t know either. The decision should be made public sometime between now and the end of the year.
Per Lutz, “the Volt is real … and test work is progressing nicely. We haven’t hit any obstacles so far for the batteries. They are all performing flawlessly. It’s almost scary we are not seeing any problems with the batteries.”
Source (Detroit Free Press)
On another note, GM is acting officially off guard about yesterday’s leak of pictures of the production form VOLT from the Transformers2 set. GM spokesperson Rob Peterson told reporters “you can tell it caught me off guard. I didn’t even realize it (the Volt) was out of the state of Michigan.”
Peterson also said the car in the video was “representative of the production vehicle” which would be revealed soon.
Source (Edmunds)
I have also received confirmation from other sources that the interior photo of the Volt was the same shown by Volt designer Bob Boniface at the recent CAR conference, as the picture below reveals, meaning that it is correct.
One question remains. Is GM secretly involved in the leak of these images to build up excitement to the actual reveal? While they won’t say when that will be many speculate it will occur at the GM Centennial Event on September 16th.
From reader requests, here’s a poll. From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?
What HVAC Mode of Operation Do You Plan to Use in Your Chevy Volt?
- Low Power (slow to heat and cool cabin, more pure electric range) (45%)
- Normal Power (faster heating and cooling, less pure electric range) (40%)
- Doesn't Matter (15%)
Total Votes: 1,452
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Aug 29th, 2008 (2:18 pm)I have to confess that the show car was already known to be just that by the time I got really interested; I have no idea what the interior looked like (so I’m not going to vote).
When I saw the video, I felt the way I did when I was last at a dealership, and they brought my new car around — wow.
When I saw the interior mockup, I thought, “oh, no.”
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:18 pm)I like the concept … as stated previously, it is what got me here in the first place.
Yet the mantra becomes a calming infulence
“It about the electrification of the car – not how cool it looks – forget about the concept”
I’m still on board and cant wait to become a first time GM customer — and I’m leaving BMW which is really saying something.
I’ll also vote I believe A123 got the battery contract.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:18 pm)I hope they change to color of that dash from white plastic to something more normal….
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:22 pm)GM certainly knew this car was going to be photographed on the set of Transformers!!!
All the other cars are being photographed in action along with that new corvette!
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:24 pm)I just wanted to point out on this thread too, that we have gone past 40,000 on the wait list..
Go GM, go VOLT.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:32 pm)#5 Michael
I just wanted to point out on this thread too, that we have gone past 40,000 on the wait list..
Go GM, go VOLT.
————–
Another milestone, I’m sure the leaked/not leaked footage will only get the Volt more publicity and that can’t be bad.
(I voted for the concept…in case anyone was unsure, lol)
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:32 pm)A chance to repeat my astute comments from the tail end of the last posting:
Here are the cold facts: Toyota can afford to build the Prius on its own unique platform and body. GM can’t afford to do the same with the Volt. It rides on the Delta II platform, along with the future Cruze and Astra. It almost certainly shares many/most hard points of the body with them too. The overall shape (not surface texture) is very similar to the Cruze and next Astra, except for the tail, which appears unique to the Volt. This totally explains the mediocre aero Cd of .28., probably only slightly better than its Delta stablemates.
The problem I see (and I’m trying to be objective here), is that the Volt pretty much looks like any other compact car, for better or worse, depending on your taste. BUT does it look dramatically distinctive enough, given it’s unique mission in life and high price tag?
Regardless of whether you like or dislike the Prius, its shape is very distinctive, and speaks of its features (aerodynamic, high-tech, efficient, etc.). I would have expected the Volt to speak its unique features (and price) more…strongly, and eloquently.
The production Volt looks nice/cute enough, but it has a huge mission in life. This isn’t very distinctive.
Meanwhile, the 2010 Prius will likely be more expressive, unique and aerodynamic than ever. That’s the advantage of not sharing a platform and body with the Corolla.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:34 pm)I can’t vote yet because I don’t feel the Transformers images are clear enough, nor of high enough resolution, to really let me make up my mind as to whether I like the look or not yet.
While I do think the Concept is a sharp looking vehicle, I’d have never considered buying one of them because it was just too dang low to the ground and the top was chopped too low for my personal comfort.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:35 pm)I voted for the “production” Volt because it actually gets the mileage that GM had claimed. I knew the concept would have to change so I never tried to convince myself otherwise.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:38 pm)First, it’s great to hear confirmed good news about the batteries.
Also, comparing A) the purple low def. picture to B) that one Statik showed of the Volt concept, makes it hard to like A
http://www.gm-volt.com/galleries/album/72157603653293621/photo/2172214421/Chevy-Volt-2007-Chevrolet-Volt-Concept.html
better then B
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/29/volt-battery-supplier-chosen-and-gm-comments-on-production-photo-leaks-poll/#comment-62650
Still, from the other photo’s, I think Bob Boniface and the design team did a terrific job of preserving / enhancing the show car, while achieving a CD of near the Prius. That’s a real trick.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:41 pm)Hmm, executives at both battery companies don’t know who was chosen? Coupled with the Lutz comment about the batteries working so well it’s scary makes me think that the battery supplier must be …. EEStor.
Stephen
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:41 pm)The leaked fuzzy/semi-concealed photos of the electric blue volt aren’t really good enough to make a solid judgement on. The official photo from GM with only the front corner of the car with the cool blue glowing headlights show a lot more detail, then again, it’s only the front corner so it’s hard to judge the entire car on that too.
I’ll be a fence sitter and say that both versions of the car (the concept and the corner teaser shot) look good–just in different ways.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:44 pm)Awww c’mon you guys….. this is just a vote on which car LOOKS better….SO FAR
….you shouldnt be reading any more into it than that…..a vote for production only because it gets 40 AER isn’t really a vote for the LOOKS….
Dont be afraid of simply stating how much cooler the concept looks than the fuzzy images of the Civic/Scion/G35 love child…..
sorry — back to the mantra … I’ll be alright
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:48 pm)I came into this pretty late (#23114) when it showed up one day on FOXNEWS.com. It was a combination of the look of the concept and the similarity to a diesel train engine technology. I don’t know if I’m more addicted to the car or the exchange of this site (I check it several times a day everyday.)
I was really attracted to the concept car, but I am not put off by the “production car” as of today. As I said earlier, I like the color in the photo if it changes color in different lighting. I am VERY put off by the apparent interior user control panel for all the reasons that the others have stated that don’t like it.
I am actually retired, and the only way I will be able to buy one is to use part of my IRA or my 401k. But my theory is that that could be a good use of some of my IRA, since it has lost over 8% since last October. Maybe a VOLT is a better investment than Fidelity.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:54 pm)To me, the car has somewhat of a unique look and I think it will stand out. Lets face it, most cars on the road share a similar shadow. You have the Camry, Accord, Malibu, (nissan whatever), you have all of the small crossovers, the larger crossovers, the SUV’s. The number of truly unique vehicles is not too high.
The Volt in the video has the rear wheels pretty far back (like the concept) and is a little wide for its height (like the concept). I think it will be easy to identify IMO.
If this thing delivers on performance, it will stand out even more.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:56 pm)Wow… statik (and others) we are getting crushed on this poll so far…
oh well….
#13 — hey down 8% since October isnt really all that bad, stick it out man we’ll get some of it back by this time next year — just dont look until then thats how I try to do it.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:56 pm)I hope it is Conti!!! (biased since they are my former employer as of two months ago) The batteries and battery pack will be manufactured in the USA and the battery pack was co-designed by teams in Germany and in the suburbs of Chicago, IL. Hmmm… maybe I should of stayed at Conti and transferred from the Powertrain department to the E-drives group…
BTW, I voted for the production Volt…
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:57 pm)I think GM leaked the photos and the video for PR and to counteract the news from Toyota about their early release.
Aug 29th, 2008 (2:59 pm)#12 Murray:
The question is:
“Which VOLT version do you like better so far?”
NOT “which car looks better”
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:08 pm)Actually I voted for the “look” of the concept car too.
Regarding the leaked images, it really is hard to determine just what you’re
seeing given the low resolution and the dark bluish color which hides a
lot of the details.
We still have to wait for the official release…
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:08 pm)#18 — to be a stickler or anything but the last sentenence of the article is……
“From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?”
I guess the real question is would you change your vote if it was just about looks?
Either way, I’m viewing this as nothing but fun fodder….thanks for the poll Lyle………..
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:15 pm)Max,
Did you not read the paragraph above the poll question? Which specifically asks about the look.
“From reader requests, here’s a poll. From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?”
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:15 pm)“Is GM secretly involved in the leak of these images to build up excitement to the actual reveal?”
Lyle, I love ya, but I gotta call it as it is:
Wow, typical conspiracy theory.
Yeah, and the EV-1 was killed by GM so that other corporations (oil companies) could make more money. What next, farmers purposely don’t harvest their fields because they’re concerned that somebody else wont make as much money?
Has anybody thought that if GM wanted to leak the pictures that they probably would have done a better job of it? Better pictures, sound, the camcorder inside the vehicle while driving it? etc? Do you think their marketing department really would have done this bad of a job?
Wise up people.
death to oil
http://www.oiljihad.org
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:19 pm)As a side note,
The amount of information on this site in the last 2 weeks is astounding given that we are two (+) years from the volts sales debut.
If this pace keeps up, we will be out of things to discuss before the car comes out.
Good job Lyle with all of this great information.
As to the conspiracy theory. I think it would be smart of GM to leak these photos. Obviously they have been teasing the public with the Volt for some time now and they know there is great interest in the auto press. Given that, you probably should not drive it around in the open without the expectation of photos leaking out. ON this pole, I think someone at GM must have known this would happen.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:19 pm)i really dont like tike the interior (if thats really what it looks like) its plastic!! last time i checked plastic wasnt the best for the environment. it looks to “hard”. I love the interior of my Honda Civic and that is definitely futuristic but is by no means “cheap” like the interior of the volt looks.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:21 pm)I like the production model better although not crazy about purple. Also, if anyone is interested this is what Toyota’s top Engineering development team really thinks of EV’s
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/toyota-on-three-electric-autos-1334.html
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:23 pm)Ok all … today was fun … I managed to waste approx. 95% of my work day on this site today….
no worries, working in the financial services industry the Friday before Labor Day is usually a hassle-free day anyway….
Have a great holiday 1 and all….
Great stuff Lyle keep up the good work!
(oh and VOTE Concept … you know it looks better than Production!)
((mantra))
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:23 pm)I’m with the concept for looks!
But unlike some other guys in here, i understand that it’s just that a concept. I mean was anyone else at Volt Nation did you see all the crazy cars that will never be produced? So i voted for the production, because the question was “which volt version do you like better so far” and i like the one i will actually be able to buy, and get 40 miles AER.
Hey Troll, you see the numbers, like i said your in the minority
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:27 pm)I honestly can’t say which one I like best. The “pre-production” Volt stirs my mind, whereas the concept stole my heart. So I can’t really vote either way because I am pleased by both…that and the fact that as of right now, in testing, it is doing what its supposed to.
But instead of the electric blue-violet/white center stack, make mine blood red with a full black interior. I just think the touch-sensitive stack would look better in black.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:27 pm)#7 pauln:
If the Volt meets the original performance goals – 40 miles AER and 50 mpg on the range extender, I really couldn’t care less what platform it is on, and I’m not really that concerned about the styling.
I think that the Prius is a fine car. If it was a Chevrolet, I would have bought one long since. Alas, I am not buying any cars from foreign corporations, whether produced offshore or here, so the Prius is not an option for me.
“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:31 pm)Love the production volt’s outside.
Don’t love the inside.
Let’s hope the obnoxious white plastic is at least an option so I can get it in black or even body-color.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:31 pm)Good job JonP…showing you just dont get it …. again.
This poll IS about LOOKS period ! and guess what….you agree with Statik on something …. you said
“I’m with the concept for looks!”
thats gotta hurt……..
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:32 pm)#15 Murray
Wow… statik (and others) we are getting crushed on this poll so far…
oh well….
———-
Well, that is to be expected, especially given the venue. I’m surprised it is that close to tell you the truth.
Honestly alot of people would rather have a understated car, rather than something flashy. And thats ok, it’s just not what I personally signed up for. I can roll with it.
The question is will they pay the price GM is reported asking for this car once the initial rush is over? I don’t know, maybe. As I like to say, time will tell.
At the end of the day I get a EV that my family can all ride in…I’ll be happy.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:33 pm)psklenar #8
“I can’t vote yet because I don’t feel the Transformers images are clear enough, nor of high enough resolution, to really let me make up my mind as to whether I like the look or not yet”
*** *** ***
This is why I believe that those photos were purposefully leaked. I don’t think that the purple color of the car contrasted with the smoke/black roof and the darkness of the image was by accident. And again, I’ll state that
from the top it’s difficult to get a really good view of this car, especially with these dark images. The obscured side view in the last topic shows that it’s a pretty nice looking car. You can’t have everything, we’ve had enough people complaining since the beginning that GM should have just used the old Malibu platform to save costs. Remember that this is an existing platform…Delta.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:34 pm)I hope I voted right…I went for the production model but the reason for it was I really don’t care much for looks, I went with the one that will deliver the performance I want. I want a car that, in case of a gas shortage, will still get me back and forth to work that week, even if I can’t get gas that week at all. The production will give me that eventually. The concept is just that, a concept, and will give me nothing.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:41 pm)I think the production Volt looks very futuristic.
From an aerodynamic perspective, it has a wide, smooth front end (as seen in the Charlie Rose segment), the body is smooth with gently changing slopes, and it uses a Kammback rear end.
Now the Corvette has a Cd of 0.285. It has aggressive styling cues, with large wheels and tires, big fenders, and a large air intake. The Volt has moderate wheels and tires, small fender flares, and a small air intake. In addition, it likely has bottom panels to smooth the airflow under the car. I forsee a Cd of 0.26 or less.
Now, is it an optical illusion, or am I actually seeing a taper to the Volt’s body? See the picture from the rear of the Volt with several people near the car, and with the driver’s door open (I couldn’t get the video to load). Notice the distance from the front wheel to the white parking line, and now compare it to the rear. Does the production Volt actually have a teardrop shape?
Note that the EV1, which has a Cd of 0.195 (lowest of any production car ever made) had a teardrop shape. The front track was greater than the rear track. See the attached specs.
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
If they have done all these aerodynamic mods, including the teardrop shape, why couldn’t GM be approaching the Cd of the EV1?
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:46 pm)I voted in the survey but I’d prefer to have an asterisk by the vote. The side view looks nice. The view from the top not so much so. But the more I look the more I like it. I really think we’ll have to wait and see what it looks like from more normal angles. IOW it’s like comparing shots of models — one taken of the face at eye level and one taken of the top of the head from a ladder. Impossible to compare them.
#7 pauln
I agree that the Prius has benefited from having a distinctive design. What you’re missing is that, once the Prius tech is upstaged, what the design stands for is obsolete tech. GM has leapfrogged Toyota and Honda, and for tech folks second best tech is no tech.
I also think the production Volt is more distinctive than you’re giving it credit for and that it will prove more appealing than that of the Prius. I personally know of several cases in which daughters rebelled at the thought of getting a Prius because they thought it was completely ugly. (Yeah I live in one of those neighborhoods where most children get a new car). Rather than being a design triumph, I’d say the Prius represents the success of tech over design. I think the Volt trumps it on both counts.
The more interesting question is whether price will trump both style and tech. If the Volt could match the Prius in price, I doubt that the Prius could maintain a 20% market share. But the Volt can’t so the questions become what the price difference is, how much better the Volt is appointed and handles, how consumers perceive the value of a 40 mile EV range, and how price sensitive customers are. Not trivial questions.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:46 pm)#31 Murray
Have you read any of the post. First the production Volt is wiping up the concept. Second i’d say a good 65% of the post say “i voted for the production volt because…..” Every reason but looks.
So maybe it’s you that dosen’t get it. People are desperate for alternative means of propulsion, so desperate that they feel inclined to point out over and over that the looks don’t matter. Because at the end of the day i’m not here for the companionship as some of you guys are. I want to get my voice heard by GM. I want them to know that all that matters is a car that meets specs, not looks. Or at the least that looks is last in the priority list.
————————————————————
“At the end of the day I get a EV that my family can all ride in…I’ll be happy.”
Hey troll, now thats something we can agree on.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:51 pm)I’ve been on here since relatively early on (7,000) and I have had volt concept images as my wallpaper since that day. I will always love the concept and I am aware that it would be almost impossible for the production car to live up to my expectations. I can’t say that I hate the production version because the images have been crap. And as much as I love the concept car, I have seen photos from angles that made me think, “what the hell is that?” So I’m still waiting to make a decision on the production version, but the images from leaked video pale in comparison to the concept.
And for those people who say that they like the production version better than the concept because it is being produced is a BS cop-out. You know that’s not what Lyle’s asking. If right now, you could have your hands on the concept car (as promised) or the production car, what would it be?
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:54 pm)When I saw the leaked video last night on my laptop, it looked a lot bluer than the pics at the top of this item.
I would have said, if anything, “just slightly to the purple side of blue” (as opposed to “just slightly to the green side,” it seems nearly impossible to get a shade of blue on a car that doesn’t go one way or the other).
Don’t think I’d care too much for a “slightly to the blue side of purple” shade, if that’s what it is. I think most of us voted for blue, which is why I thought it was great to see this film representative Volt produced in that color.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:54 pm)I voted for the concept and I am surprised the concept is getting beat.
I must be missing something with the Transformer car.
I’m looking forward to the official pictures put out by GM and hope those don’t have a dark finish.
Aug 29th, 2008 (3:57 pm)Your poll is flawed… it’s like asking when you stopped beating your wife… I don’t like either concept or the photos of the supposedly leaked Volt skin.
In any case, I can’t believe GM has picked a supplier but could possibly not tell either one of them for up to 4 months! That’s like playing games with the suppliers… it also needlessly delays getting those batteries into production… if you knew you were the supplier you could be moving faster to getting things ready for production (subcontracts, plant construction, etc).
For what it’s worth, I won’t be watching the Transformers sequel… I watched the 1st one based on the good reviews… but the plot line and the dialog was definitely targeted to the kids. Kind of like E.T. but with machines instead. It was definitely good marketing for GM though, every vehicle I’m sure you’ve heard was a GM model.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:01 pm)I totally disagree with those who don’t like the blue car.
I really like the look of the blue car, whatever it is. I hope they keep that look. I’ve always been a big fan of vehicles that are portioned like the blue car. It looks a way better than the concept vehicle with much better streamlining.
I know know that the sharp angle fans prefer the concept vehicle but classic styling has always been rounded. I think the concept car was very nice but looked out of proportion with a squished looking roof line. Anything less than a faux hardwood dash is not classic.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:03 pm)Those wheels look cool. They will never make it onto the production model.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:07 pm)Jeff M #41
I can’t understand the battery dilemma either. I thought they were supposed to announce the selection in Sept. and now it’s year end? You are correct on the production aspect, especially with 2010 approaching and a real need to ramp up production capability.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:07 pm)Jeff M #41: That’s a good point. They really seem to be screwing over the battery producer that they eventually choose and will potentially hinder the number of battery packs that can be produced for Gen 1 volts.
Maybe they have no concerns over volume (because they won’t be producing enough Volts in year 1 to stress the battery pack manufacturer) and they don’t want their competition to know what battery chemistry is better until as late as possible…
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:13 pm)Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.
My thought is, if there is one company that does not need to build a plant and can start mass producing immediately, then there is no need for GM to be concerned about production numbers. So they can wait a few months. And if so, then they picked the company that can produce immediately.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:15 pm)Jeff M #41 and Grizzley
I’m optimistic about the delay for the battery. Maybe it means that the battery will be better than the ones they’re testing now. Better could mean more mileage and which company can squeeze out a few more miles.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:17 pm)I wish the poll have added.. “not sure”. I did not like the interior volt concept looks and that alone would put it off until the Volt 2 Gen come out. I like the exterior of the volt concept look. Known that it going to be change. The Production volt look “ok”. I think the color gave me a bad after taste. I’m still waitting for more info about the interior of the Production. The Production version of the console alone is not enough for me to make a jugement. Again the color of the console gave me another bad after taste as well.
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:17 pm)Get rid of the white console. Give me a deep sparkly red exterior and and red console.
Than I’ll buy one (as my wife will love it and agree to it)
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:22 pm)My sense of the use of the word “troll” when referring to a blogger is to describe a sort of agent provocateur, who shows up on the blog and stirs up dissent, either just for fun, or to advance someone’s hidden agenda.
Thus, when someone shows up and starts indiscriminately calling people “trolls”, doesn’t that person become, by definititon, a “troll”?
I sincerely doubt that such behavior will get much sympathy from GM management. More likely, they will just tune it out, as will the other bloggers
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:23 pm)#41 Jeff M – “In any case, I can’t believe GM has picked a supplier but could possibly not tell either one of them for up to 4 months!”
Yeah it’s not believable. Can you imagine the GM engineers working with the battery engineers for months and not talking, much less conveying anything? I can’t either. It’s too utterly contrary to human nature.
Assuming Lutz isn’t going senile on us, my only guess is either they are going to use both or they are going to use one for the Volt and the other for one or more other vehicles. Something along those lines where there are winners but no real loser. This wouldn’t be totally surprising since we’ve been lead to believe the availability of batteries is a limiting factor in production. Lutz has said both battery packs have performed perfectly and we know other vehicles are in the works …
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:33 pm)Some good comparisons between todays pics and concept.
“http://jalopnik.com/5043578/2010-chevy-volt-concept-versus-reality”
Aug 29th, 2008 (4:38 pm)DonC #51
Lutz has also mentioned that one company’s battery design could be selected and another could manufacture it. That would involve both companies and keep both viable as suppliers, and both winners. Maybe both Conti and CPI are working together.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:09 pm)I voted for the production Volt.
If the Volt rides on the Delta II platform, along with the future Cruze and Astra to reduce the cost of the vehicle then I say good Job GM!
I live in Phx and the Prius are everywhere. I want to see the Volt produced in those numbers as well!
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:16 pm)Jihadi against oil
“The stone age didn’t end because of a lack of stones.” Good one,
but It hasn’t ended in many mid east countries.
I like your conspiracy theory comment.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:16 pm)#53 Grizzly – It has to be something. Otherwise it’s simply too weird. If you’ve decided then what are you waiting for?
#52 nuclearboy – Interesting comparisons. Thanks. When looked at from some positions the differences don’t seem as great. The different angles make it hard for me to evaluate.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:22 pm)Amul #46
They can use any of the padlocked GM plants. Besides what kind of plant do you actually need to make 10,000 battery packs ?
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:24 pm)Oh, I believe that the battery suppliers don’t know which way GM is going. I’ve sold development software to the car companies and, frankly, it is a very unpleasant experience. You work with their engineering department and together discuss their needs and draw up requirements. You put together a proposal that meets their needs and they tell you to expect a PO any day now. After a month or two of dead silence you learn that they went with a different supplier who proposed a bare bones system that didn’t meet any of the “must have” features. The engineers at the car company shrug their shoulders and tell you “Their system was %20 less. That’s our purchasing department for you”. sigh.
If one of the suppliers actually delivers 50 miles AER but cost %10 more, than they will lose.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:31 pm)The battery company with the best tech lab and most innovative ideas for better future batteries should be chosen. We don’t want to see GM fizzle because their batteries are inferior to others
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:35 pm)Ed M, #57. I thought A123 had trouble getting a plant together. I’m going from memory, but I thought they had a contract with a Chinese factory to build batteries, but then the contract fell through. So they were scrambling to find another factory to build them. This is all from memory, but I believe it to be true.
But I have no idea what kind of shape LG Chem/CPI is in, thus my question.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:48 pm)I just put in a 7kWT electric solar installation and can’t wait to plug in a Volt. We are (electrical) energy independent. Our California Governor wants 1 million homes to have solar electricity within the next eight years (the state kicked in $13,000 towards our cost). That’s a lot of potential Volt buyers.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:54 pm)Geesus California better start drilling off the coast for oil to pay for all those solar panels Ricky.
Aug 29th, 2008 (5:57 pm)A Toyota dealership in Palo Alto, CA is now accepting $500 deposits on the plug-in Prius. However, there is a disclaimer that there’s no guarantee that Toyota will be selling the plug-in Prius in the U.S.
http://www.mercurynews.com/greenenergy/ci_10327089?nclick_check=1
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:07 pm)Don’t care much about the look.
GM should pick both suppliers. So, they can build 20,000 Volts.
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:18 pm)noel park @ 50
I think many people view troll as a bad mean a$$hole person that don’t have a life. I don’t look at that way. To me a troll is a person that have opposite view against of the mass view. Some poeple start calling troll and then the people that been pointed as a troll will start to says “No, your a troll” If it get so bad, it get lost of that view. It does not matter who started the fight or argue.
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:28 pm)Jeff @ #41:
I agree that it seems strange to hold off making an announcement on the battery supplier – but I also can think of a few reasons why GM wants to hold the suspense.
Let’s face it – there are several manufacturers all racing to pull off a plug-in electric vehicle. But only GM is allowing the public behind the curtain to watch it all unfold. Yes… I realize they are fighting a PR battle every day – and this is definitely giving them a little breathing room (very little…). But it makes sense for GM to wait until the absolute last possible moment in their development plan to make the announcement for competitive reasons. They are moving forward as rapidly as they reasonably can – and thus far they have been very accurate with their timeline. There are also many other components on this car that need to be sourced – so every one of those suppliers needs to chosen.
As for the vote… I voted for the concept look… just because if I had my choice I’d prefer the styling stand out more. But as I’ve said before, this car must appeal to huge numbers of consumers, deliver on a bold engineering promise, be functional, and affordable. In the end, I’ll be driving one no matter what it looks like. Go GM . . . bring on the VOLT!!!
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:31 pm)Grizzly @ 53
Recalling from my memory, Lutz says GM may use both. Only one will get the volt prize, the other may be for other e-flex model.
So the two may have to built the manufacture plants anyway.
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:39 pm)I really don’t see JonP as a troll, though he seems to want to set him self apart from as us having a better mind or something.
All I’ve got to say about that is everybody here’s got good minds or we wouldn’t be here. It’s not like we weren’t here way before gas hit $4.00 a gallon and we’ll be here when it goes back below $3.00 because our support of the Volt and alternative energy has scared the producers and middlemen of carbon fuels. It’s not like we’re all johnny-come-lately bandwagon fan boys.
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:52 pm)RichardG #60
heh heh, show off. Its good to see someone making use of the sun. What do you do for electricity when its dark or cloudy ?
I was in Phoenix a little while back and I couldn’t get over the lack of solar units on the roof tops. I was looking for them but didn’t see one.
Ahnie gave you $13,000, wow, what was the total cost ?
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:53 pm)I really liked the concept, angry looking headlights were cool. Chop top roof, shorty windows, see thru doors, etc. But, I think the latest shots of the production INTENT vehicles are beyond my expectations, beautiful car, great lines.
On another note, the Prius is the ugliest car every built by anyone, regardless of its mission in life, would rather ride my bike thru a pit of snakes than be seen alive in that God forsaken hunk of…. I’m sorry.
we’re counting on GM to knock this out of the park, I’m counting on them to stay in business, so I have a job. I work at Chevy dealership, repairing Chevys. Good site Lyle. take care all
Aug 29th, 2008 (6:55 pm)It could be shaped like banana and drive worse; I don’t care. I’m sick of petro.
Lyle, nice work on the admissions from GM–they haven’t denied anything and from where I come from, that’s an admission.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:00 pm)#46 Rashiid Amul Says: “Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.”
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Both battery cell manufacturers already have huge existing plants and can start mass producing the battery cells quickly. In the case of LG, they own huge plants in South Korea. For A123, they have access to huge plants in China that build batteries for their current customers like DeWalt.
In both cases, the battery cell manufacturing plants currently build Li/Ion cells with a different chemistry, but converting these plants to make the new chemistry cells for the Volt shouldn’t be a big deal.
As for the battery pack suppliers, CPI and Continental, the manufacturing plant is much less of an issue. Each pack uses around 500 cells, so pack volume is much lower than cell volume. Also, most of the pack complexity is in the mechanical design and software. The real manufacturing complexity is in the cells. So the pack plant is more like an assembly plant. This is much easier to build up quickly. As I recall, both pack suppliers said they will have a plant in Detroit if they are selected. There are plenty of empty buildings in Detroit these days.
Not to worry.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:01 pm)cybereye
I thought trolls were attractively challenged little men who lived under bridges and ate a steady diet of billy goats. But what do I know. Notice I didn’t say ugly little men.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:02 pm)#52 nuclearboy
Thanks for that link. It was interesting.
I’m curious. Why did you put your link in quotes?
I do it also, but I’m curious for your reason.
I do because my entire post disappears if I don’t do it.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:03 pm)Does anyone know how I can change Ed M to paper baghead ?
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:05 pm)I’m kind of bummed that the \Volt is not going to be a transformer in the movie. Of course, it’ll be a transformer in the marketplace, instead.
(and in the electrical sense, it’ll probably be a transformer too when you plug it in (and a rectifier)). Ok, I’ll stop.
Had to vote for the transformer movie version of the car. It’s much sleeker. I like sleek cars.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:05 pm)Dave G # 70. Thanks for the clarification. I honestly thought A123 didn’t have a plant in China anymore. Thanks for correcting me.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:10 pm)#69 Dave B Says: “It could be shaped like banana and drive worse; I don’t care. I’m sick of petro”
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Well put.
The money we spend on gasoline makes Iran more wealthy and influential. They’re building nukes. They’re chanting “Death to America” in their parliament.
Meanwhile, we’re worrying if the Volt will look cool…
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:11 pm)Dave B
A banana you say, very revolutionary design. I wonder if GM has considered it ? Personally I like the petrol free Flinstone auto except my bunions can’t take hard stops.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:18 pm)#67 Ed M.
After Uncle Sam allows $4,000 off our Fed taxes next year the total cost to us will be around $42,000. Not cost effective; but something that we wanted to do. We are still on the grid and use PG&E power after dark. We are building up “credits” at a rate of $200.00 per month (first two months) over and above the power we use each day. We have two air conditioners going right now as it is 103 outside. We will draw down our “credits” during the winter months.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:20 pm)#29 noel park says “If the Volt meets the original performance goals – 40 miles AER and 50 mpg on the range extender, I really couldn’t care less what platform it is on, and I’m not really that concerned about the styling.”
I think I understand this point of view, but to me styling is important, and I think it is to most people. I just don’t understand why it is in GM’s interest to have styling that is so generic. Nothing wrong with it, but nothing special about it, looks similar to various Toyotas and Mazdas. Will people want to pay $40K for a car that has lukewarm styling? I’m not sure about that, even if the technology underneath is exciting.
The real news in this post is what GM said about the battery contract. Despite their comment that they like one better (perhaps a smokescreen), the fact is that GM still has no battery contract. No contract = no factory being built = no batteries. So maybe the styling issue becomes irrelevant.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:35 pm)Richard G
$42,000 seems like a lot right now but in a few years you’ll be very glad you did it so cheap. I forgot about the credits thing which will help offset electrical grid use. You’ve made a good decision in my mind, the more independent one can be the better.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:35 pm)#72.
I put the link in quotes because I saw others do that and I had read other complaining about links dissapearing. I just guessed that the quotes would be the way to go and it worked. I did not try w/o.
On another note: The comparison shots appear to make the concept and the prototype look more similar than not. They almost cast the same shadow. The prototype is a rounded off version of the concept (with some other tweaks to the lights and fixtures) just like the designers had noted earlier.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:49 pm)That opens the possibility that a utility could stitch together hundreds or thousands of recycled units to store power and send it back to the electric grid at times of peak demand. Truly great talking about mobiles should be done.
Aug 29th, 2008 (7:54 pm)Jerry #68
No exaggerations please, “…would rather ride my bike thru a pit of snakes than be seen alive in that God forsaken hunk of…” this is a very serious site.
Now if you said, I would rather drive a monkey powered Volt mobile at 300 mph over the alkali flats with my bottom hanging out, that would be OK.
Aug 29th, 2008 (8:23 pm)Ed M #58
“Besides what kind of plant do you actually need to make 10,000 battery packs ?”
*** *** ***
If you’re asking about 100,000 packs for year two, I’d have to say….a pretty good one! The complexity in the packs is that you’ve got to assemble about 300 cells in an environment that can handle the vibration of jars and bumps has a functioning and tested BMS that can bypass rogue cells and a TMS that can handle extremes in cold and heat that includes some sort of liquid coolant to accomplish this. Understanding this complexity there is currently no way to mass manufacture these on an automated assembly line. Sooo having a plant tooled and ready to make 100K+ of these packs tested to high Q&A standards so they’ll stand up to a 150K mile 10 year warranty is not done overnight.
Aug 29th, 2008 (8:23 pm)#59 maharguitar:
I agree with you. If both batteries perform about the same …the one with the lowest price will win. GM is trying to keep the cost to a minimum. I am sure GM has read the posts on this site when ever the price is discussed.
Aug 29th, 2008 (8:57 pm)Ed M @ 76
http://en.gravatar.com/
to change the picture of your pick.
Aug 29th, 2008 (9:13 pm)We currently drive a Camry Hybrid and find that visibality is restricted primarly to the rear quarter areas. I hope that the VOLT won’t be as bad, but from the pictures I wonder.
I just signed up as number one on the VOLT list in Bremerton, Wa.
Aug 29th, 2008 (9:27 pm)#87 Grizzly Says: “The complexity in the packs is that you’ve got to assemble about 300 cells in an environment that can handle … Sooo having a plant tooled and ready to make 100K+ of these packs tested to high Q&A standards so they’ll stand up to a 150K mile 10 year warranty is not done overnight.”
————————————————————————————-
First, the battery cell manufacturing plants to build 100K packs per year exist today. For A123, they are in China. For LG, they are in South Korea. Both companies have plants with that much spare capacity today. Lyle posted an article on this previously. Also see my post #73 for details.
Second, while the pack design will be complicated, I don’t believe the pack assembly will be as complicated as you suggest, but we’ll have to wait and see on that one.
Third, Bob Lutz said the Volt battery pack contains around 500 cells (not 300) on the recent Charlie Rose video here:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/20/lutz-production-volt-has-a-cd-between-28-and-29-and-battery-extreme-cold-performance-is-good/
Aug 29th, 2008 (9:41 pm)Dave G #91
There’s no argument about providing the cells, they’re the easier part, the raw materials if you will. The challenge is the packs, which essentially are the battery and are pretty complex and at this time – to my knowledge – are made essentially by hand.
You may be right on the 500 but I could swear I saw over 300 cells for the CPI pack and actually less than 300 for the Conti pack. IIRC the reason for Conti’s fewer cells were the stability of A123 chem. and less need for redundancy.
Aug 29th, 2008 (9:50 pm)I have been very excited about the recent peeks of the production Volt. While I accept the production Volt for it’s innovative shift in powering the fuel for individual travel, the design changes are pretty major. I googled concept Volt shots which were similar to the angles in the recent peek shots and put them along side each other in a PowerPoint. I am still excited about the Volt, but the style changes are very noticeable. Also, why couldn’t the interior design resemble the concept more closely. It went from AWESOME to typical. I don’t know how the interior can effect the aerodynamics (assuming mass is not a problem of course).
I am still a Volt enthusiast. If the price is something I can afford, I intend to buy one. But, my enthusiasm is now strictly for the electric only drive. A bit anti-climactic to my initial euphoria over the edgy design as well as the e-drive. Oh well, at least it can seat 4 and it won’t have those dorky wheel covers that the EV-1 had.
The PowerPoint can be viewed at:
http://www.eternaleffect.com/Volt%20concept%20vs%20production.pptx
Aug 29th, 2008 (10:16 pm)#90 Karl Schreiber:
“I just signed up as number one on the VOLT list in Bremerton, Wa.”
Has your local Chevy dealer started a waiting list?
Aug 29th, 2008 (10:41 pm)#91 Dave G
Given current transportation charges a factory in Asia will probably not work. The battery packs need to be local. Tesla faced the same problem and had to shift assembly from the UK to the USA.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:00 pm)I’m liking the Transformers version of the Volt better.
having said that, I don’t care for the interior, you won’t be able to use it by “feel” very well with all the flush buttons.
Also on the interior, I don’t care to have everything integrated like that. You cannot easily change the CD player or anything else because it’s all one unit.
The best part of the concept was the nose, if they could’ve kept the nose a little closer to the concept, that would’ve been the best part.
Oh, one last thing: I realize the Volt in the video is not production, but there is such a thing as tires with too low of a profile. It looks like it’s driving on the rims.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:06 pm)My 2 cents worth.
Car that we will see on Sept 16 will look much better.
I think that the charge port placement is very good – just beside the side mirrors makes alot of sense – easy to get access to and harder to forget about when starting out….
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:11 pm)That place on the interior console where the display is is going to a bear to keep clean. It will fill up with dust and crud faster than you count to ten.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:12 pm)I agree that it makes no sense to have picked a supplier and not tell them. This seems highly unlikely. It’s also highly unlikely that they have told both and the loser is staying mum. Still unlikely, but a little less so, is that they told the winner and are still stringing the loser along. What makes more sense is that they have reached an agreement with both where one is getting the Volt’s 40AER contract and the other is getting “something else”. Better able to ramp up production of EREVs faster with two suppliers than one.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:13 pm)Stew #96
I’ve got to say, the tires sure fill the wheel wells, which gives the impression that they’re larger than they are.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:26 pm)I liked the concept version better, from the inside point of view. The question was “Which VOLT version do you like better so far?” The question is loaded I think. I like the inside of the concept, and the outside of the production…
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:38 pm)I LOVE THIS CAR. ITS THE FREKIN COOLEST CAR EVER WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!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Aug 29th, 2008 (11:39 pm)Rashid #47
Remember, it’s not just first run production for late 2010 that needs to be built. They need to start producing reasonably quantities for the next generation of mules and then prototypes. I believe one, or both, need to know now.
Aug 29th, 2008 (11:53 pm)Oops, to late to edit. Sorry for the misspell Rashiid.
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:03 am)I’m still in love with the concept car.
Be well,
Tag
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:24 am)If anyone wants a better pic of Volt. Plz let me know. I can email it to you directly.
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:30 am)Robert A Lutz says:
We deserve $50 billion in guaranteed loans
Small cars are going to get much more expensive
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/business/29lutz.html
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:45 am)If Lutz said that they haven’t told the supplier, then they haven’t told the supplier. Duh!
I believe Lutz, but I don’t believe folks who obviously don’t have access to any info acting like they know something. Someone provide the logic behind the claim that GM “must” have informed the winner if they have chosen them. Don’t bother, we all know there isn’t any.
The more important question is whether this selection is for the Volt (and only the Volt) contract. GM has at least two follow-on E-Revs coming down the pike and I have no compelling reason to assume that GM won’t need both companies.
Aug 30th, 2008 (4:15 am)Instead of “IPod”, why doesn’t GM stick to what it knows is a successful, rich and deserving interior motif like say “Malibu”? I think that would draw more interest at the $40,000 mark.
Aug 30th, 2008 (7:03 am)Instead of “IPod”, why doesn’t GM stick to what it knows is a successful, rich and deserving interior motif like say “Malibu”? I think that would draw more interest at the $40,000 mark.
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Malibu has a rich and deserving interior? You must be looking at a different Malibu than me. (again, everyone has their preferences) I actually love the iPod look.
I think the biggest turnoff for most is the white plastic, I’d hope for black.
Too bad the exterior isn’t cutting edge.
Aug 30th, 2008 (7:31 am)One of the great things about a market economy is that a lot of disagreements are mediated by the process of setting a price.
We are fortunate that Lyle has given us something similar here, on the page where we say how much we would be willing to deposit, and how much we would pay. Now I realize these values are hypotheticals on an unofficial list. Even so, in my mind I have treated them as real, and if someone from my dealer calls, I really will pay just what I’ve said, so these are bid prices.
All along I’ve been setting my bid based on a combination of styling and technology. I thought styling deserved a large premium and the technology a small premium (extremely innovative offset by totally unproven).
With what we know now, my opinion is that styling is average and technology continues to deserve a small premium. So I reduced my bid deposit from about $4K to about $500, and my car price from about $36K to about $20K.
These are the actual numbers of what I would be willing “to do today”, as the car salesman always wants to know
To me, these prices are a better indicator than Lyle’s poll is this post, as the prices allow degrees of enthusiasm, not just choices.
Aug 30th, 2008 (7:50 am)I like the production design. Sure the cd could be a touch better but that is what Volt 2.0 is for. Better to get it into production soon and if it takes using a body in common with the Cruze and Astra that is just good production sense. It reduces the overall developement costs a bit or at least spreads it out. About the battery, I don’t really care which one is chosen as long as it works and is produced in the US. Got to go finish boarding up for Gustav but y’all have a nice day.
Aug 30th, 2008 (7:54 am)109 Kevin:
Agreed. White plastic to me has always been the ultimate sign of cheese. It also doesn’t age very well.
Piano glossy black has always been, and since I work with electronics still is, the signature of a quality piece of equipment.
Aug 30th, 2008 (7:55 am)#95 DonC Says: “Given current transportation charges a factory in Asia will probably not work. The battery packs need to be local. Tesla faced the same problem and had to shift assembly from the UK to the USA.”
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Tesla is a great example. Their individual battery cells have always been produced in Asia, and their battery pack assembly has always been in California. The UK has assembled other portions of the car, but never the battery pack.
So the point is that you don’t need a huge manufacturing plant to assemble the individual battery cells into battery packs, even if the battery pack design is complex. Note that Tesla uses 6831 individual battery cells in each battery pack.
Aug 30th, 2008 (8:22 am)Koz #103 says,
They need to start producing reasonably quantities for the next generation of mules and then prototypes.
————–
You are correct. That’s something I wasn’t thinking you about.
=================
Koz 104,
Don’t worry about misspelling my name. When I’m typing fast, I do the same thing.
Aug 30th, 2008 (8:29 am)#47 Rashiid Amul said:
Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.
My thought is, if there is one company that does not need to build a plant and can start mass producing immediately, then there is no need for GM to be concerned about production numbers. So they can wait a few months. And if so, then they picked the company that can produce immediately.
_____
There are battery companies in the U.S. who do “contract battery manufacturing”. Those that immediately come to mind are 1) Crown Battery Company in Fremont, OH and 2) NorthStar Battery Co. in Springfield, MO. Those are the companies that Firefly Energy, Inc. has contracted with to build their “Oasis” Cabon-Graphite Foam batteries for the truck industry.
Could those same companies manufacture the Volt lithium-ion battery packs? I don’t know! But, if they could, those manufacturing facilities already exist. They might have to do some expansion and perhaps some retrofitting, but it is not exactly like building a complete new manufacturing facility with an all new work force.
We may not know the details, but I feel confident those interested in building the Volt battery packs are probably exploring those and other U.S. manufacturing opportunities/options.
Aug 30th, 2008 (8:38 am)Estero #115.
I bet they are scrambling as much as possible to be able to fulfill any orders that might come their way.
But I also don’t see either company really losing here. If one of the battery suppliers doesn’t get the contract, there are now so many automakers making EVs, the “losing” company will win anyway.
—–
Edit: This went into moderation. I would really like to know what word or words forced this comment into moderation.
Seems to me that some of those comments from yesterday had a better chance of falling into moderation than this comment.
Aug 30th, 2008 (8:39 am)#53 nuclearboy — gives link to site with pictures comparing concept and production from comparable angles.
Thank you for this outstanding link.
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:10 am)#62 RichardG
I just put in a 7kWT electric solar installation and can’t wait to plug in a Volt. We are (electrical) energy independent. Our California Governor wants 1 million homes to have solar electricity within the next eight years (the state kicked in $13,000 towards our cost). That’s a lot of potential Volt buyers.
After Uncle Sam allows $4,000 off our Fed taxes next year the total cost to us will be around $42,000. Not cost effective; but something that we wanted to do. We are still on the grid and use PG&E power after dark. We are building up “credits” at a rate of $200.00 per month (first two months) over and above the power we use each day. We have two air conditioners going right now as it is 103 outside. We will draw down our “credits” during the winter months.
————
Welcome to the solar power club, hehe. I think thats at least 4 of us. It’s a curiousity to me how there is very little ‘national’ system for subsidies in the US, every state seems has there own thing going on. Some states are really good…some not so much.
I live close to Toronto in Ontario, Canada. There is not really any subsidy directly related to purchasing/installing the equipment (other than you don’t pay tax on them). However, once you are up and running you can sign up to Ontario’s “Standard Offer Program,” which pays you .42 for every kW you produce. It seems like a good system, it’s simple, easy to understand…there is no ‘policing’ like most other programs, no paperwork, and you can see you payback/do the math immediately.
Total cost I paid out is probably up to around 30K on a 6kW system (which is pretty cheap if you don’t factor in I did most of the work myself and trucked the panels from the cheapest source myself, lol….I don’t even want to know the cost if we assign a dollar value to my time, but it was amusement as well to me).
Estimated payback after a couple years of tracking is at around the 9 year mark. I figured if I let someone else do it for me…more like 15-16. Too bad my house it for sale…I’ll never see the ‘cash positive’ day. Hopefully, it will net me a equal value premium on my house…and I can start over, lol.
Anyway, a good choice and a good thing to do. Congrats. I look forward to when solar is a viable/cost effective energy solution for most Americans/Canadians.
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:12 am)Because many of comments on this thread address Volt styling, I’m carrying my comments from the previous thread forward. If you saw those, just skip over these……
Now that several still photos (screen caps) are conveniently located at the top of the previous thread (thanks, Lyle), and we’ve been assured by GM that these are close to what the production car will look like, I want to offer my carefully-considered comments on the Volt’s styling…..
1) The 2 upper grill designs will look extremely attractive a) IF they’re made fully functional by placing GM’s actuator-operated, speed-controlled louvers behind them, and b) IF those louvers have a flat black (perhaps textured) finish to avoid the current Ford Fusion grill’s overly- simplistic “horizontal chrome slab” look (see the 2nd photo from the top of this thread)
2) The blacked-out top, whether mostly sheet metal or a combination of glass, polycarbonate & metal, is a handsome and highly-distinctive feature –hopefully, a) all windshield, rear hatch and sun roof glass will be a low-thermal-absorption glass, and b) the roof area between the rear hatch and the sun roof can optionally be ordered as a solar panel (with a small exhaust fan) to help moderate the car’s interior temperature
3) The car appears to have somewhat of a teardrop shape (see the 1st photo above), giving the front wheels a wider track than the rear wheels. This is EXCELLENT …..it’s both distinctive styling and it has an important aerodynamic advantage that automotive writers can endlessly expound about
4) A close study of the side photo (last one above) shows a) the rear taillamp assembly is distinctively styled & extends well around the rear and up the sides of the car (note the rear side lights), b) the headlamp assembly is handsomely styled & quite distinctive, and also extends well behind the car’s front
5) The side photo also clearly shows Bob Boniface’s low-drag, stalk-mounted mirror mounted on the door and that the plug-in panels (the silver “arrowheads” that connect to the mirrors) extend the mirror’s bold styling theme into the front fenders. (We now know that there are two plug-in panels, one on each side)
6) Several photos show the 5-spoke alloy wheels, which although they appear somewhat smaller than on the concept car, are bold and distinctive enough to contribute to the design’s aggressive look …..and will likely work very well with low-rolling-resistance tires
7) Finally, the side photo also shows the Volt has a horizontal “shoulder crease” in the sheet metal that visually connects the rear taillamp assembly to the front headlamp assembly, through the mirror-mount/plug-in panel trim, all of which are finished in chrome/silver like the alloy wheels, giving the car a bold, aggressive, highly-distinctive look & integrating its front, rear & sides.
…..Superb!
I LOVE THIS DESIGN & LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING IT IN MORE DETAIL AT GM’s CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION IN JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS!
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:26 am)Back to the battery conversation.
I think if indeed a supplier has been chosen we will hear about it pretty quick, regardless if GM ‘plans’ to tells us sometime ‘between now and the end of the year’
I would think once a company is out, they switch time and resources pretty quick…and even if they have a NDA., things have a way of leaking to the public.
With A123′s IPO on the horizon they are forced by law to be unduly transparent. The fact they really only have 1 major customer (B&D-60% of their business) and GM is a monster contract that would drastically change the look/future of their business….I don’t see how this news does not filter through them very quickly.
Obviously, GM would know this as well. So between ‘now and the end of the year’ is probably more like…next week, lol. Unless they haven’t told the batteries makers themselves…if that is the case, both suppliers are unlikely to continue this ‘two party’ race knowing that the winner has already been chosen, thereby forcing GMs hand. (and GM would be negotiating in bad faith if they continued making ‘the loser’ participate under false pretenses).
So my vote is for ‘sooner’ rather than later. (Just a guess, although I like A123, it’s more than likely LG…not necessarily for their pack, but for their stability).
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:36 am)#118 nasaman
It is obvious that a trained eye sees details missed by some, including yours truly. Thanks for those comments.
_____
My initial reaction to the Volt pictures was like sitting on a fence; neither overly positive nor overly negative. I’m now leaning much more to the positive side of that fence, thanks to time and the comments by nasaman. I look forward to the official GM unveiling of the production Volt.
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:43 am)Having single source for the battery is indeed a risk for GM. GM should have learned its lesson with Delphi.
Delphi produces exclusive parts for nearly every GM car. They are now in big trouble, since Delphi has been in financial ruin. Delphi is asking GM for help, but the problem is GM needs help, so this could become a big problem soon. GM has no way to just 2nd source these parts, since they are so diverse and retooling would be both expensive and time consuming. Both of which GM cannot afford, especially now.
I hope GM has a better long term plan for battery suppliers. In a previous post, GM mentioned that it was planning on developing battery technology internally. When I read this initially I thought this seemed a poor decision, but now I understand better why they would want to.
Trying to second source such a key component, that use proprietary technology will be nearly impossible. So, GM is likely to create its own design and keep the technology close to home.
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:46 am)I think I finally realized why this new Volt car design reminded me of another car. I realized this looks very similiar to a stretch version of the later model Honda CRX!
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:54 am)The profile of the Volt actually reminds me of the current Honda Civic (short hood, large windshield). I actually hope that the mirror stalks and housings are not completely silver like they are on the movie car. They don’t quite blend in with the overall design this way.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:28 am)In the electronic industry many components require dual-sourcing before they are utilized, at all. If the gating decision on quantities built, is how many batteries can be manufactured, all the more reason to dual source the batteries and buy batteries from both suppliers.
As the volumes build from both suppliers you can choose to emphasize the numbers produced by the more reliable or cheaper supplier, based on actual experience rather than projections.
This also serves to protect GM if a sudden problem in manufacture, or the operation of the batteries occurs, you can continue to build using the other supplier.
As more Volts and its sisters are built, GM will need multiple suppliers anyway.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:34 am)#118 nasaman — On points about new styling
These are tiny points that most people will never notice. Even so, I commend you for your steadfast loyalty to GM.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:37 am)I didn’t have time to read all these posts, so I apologize if I am repeating.
Doesn’t anyone else find it amazing that GM has a “production ready” car available for use in the movie???? I assume it is not using E-REV, but maybe this project is farther along that we are being led to believe…… And don’t movie productions require multiple cars, just in case they wreck it by accident, or on purpose???
Very confusing…..
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:43 am)JIm_I@125 said:
I didn’t have time to read all these posts, so I apologize if I am repeating.
Doesn’t anyone else find it amazing that GM has a “production ready” car available for use in the movie???? I assume it is not using E-REV, but maybe this project is farther along that we are being led to believe…… And don’t movie productions require multiple cars, just in case they wreck it by accident, or on purpose???
Very confusing…..
But it DOES fit with my drumbeat of a July 4th 2010 release (lol).
Be well,
Tag
PS The traffic and participation at this site sure is increasing! Get here a couple hours late and there are hundreds of posts to read.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:44 am)#125 Jim I
The movie Volt is just a body shell that looks similar to a production Volt, put on top of something other car’s mechanisms, maybe a special one from the studio itself. You are right, of course, that doing a movie probably requires 2 or 3 such model cars. Presumably GM is doing this for advertising purposes, so the body shell would like the same even if the car was not.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:44 am)I did some photoshoping to compare concept with production car. The effort to keep overall silhouette is evident. The front end is changed the most as expected. I took two pictures from spy shots and found two photos of the concept from a similar angle.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bemova/sets/72157607025317063/
Click on “all sizes” to see a bigger picture.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:50 am)#118 nasaman’s post shows the strategy GM is using to try to satisfy everyone. On the one hand, there are numerous little tiny details that can be pointed out to show that the production car is really following its Volt concept heritage. On the other hand, the car as a whole is pretty much an average looking small car that no doubt shares most of its look and parts with other such GM cars. I guess that makes it cheaper, though at the price of any overall distinctiveness.
Aug 30th, 2008 (10:52 am)Zita @ 128;
If your photoshopping is accurate, the new body looks very close to the original concept. Nice job by the way. Everyone, check these pics out if you haven’t.
Aug 30th, 2008 (11:20 am)Do not trust Lutz, he is a 100% lier, the only reason GM is working on Volt is to leverage it to get 50 billion no-interest loan from the government, they have repeatedly denied bailout request to the government, yet they are now bitching that they can’t get loans from the private sector, and blatantly ask the government for “interest free” money. Do not trust GM, they have not spent even 200 millions dollars on Volt, yet they ask 50 billion, compare to their financial options in the private sector, they will save 9 billions dollars interest expenses by spending such puny amount on Volt, and in 2010, they will loan 100 Volts to private customers and then tell everyone the battery just does not last long enough, then they shut Volt project down.
GM deserves every trouble he is in now! No sympathy to their trouble, also I bet most people here are actually GM employees!
Aug 30th, 2008 (11:23 am)Re133
PDNFTT
Be well,
Tag
“LET’S JUST GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD!”
Aug 30th, 2008 (11:29 am)Nice job on the photoshopping Zita! It clearly shows how they trashed the production model by shortening the hood compared to the concept. I thought the blue concept looked even better. I wish they could have used a different car platform. This one is well……sucky and boring.
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:35 pm)#134 Tag
PDNFTT
Be well,
Tag
“LET’S JUST GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD!”
———-
/nod (a lot of inaccuracy there, so much so that even I am going to leave it alone…it speaks for itself, lol)
———-
You haven’t been too chatty lately Tag, busy long weekend?
Which indeed shows just how much traffic the site is getting now…one would think alot of people would be AFK (a little gaming slang for all you MMORPG guys).
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:44 pm)135 Kevin……..
———————————————————————————
I agree —great job, Zita!
As to the shortened hood, Kevin, I recall GM saying they needed to increase both the slope & the size (height) of the windshield for aerodynamic reasons. This meant they had to move the bottom edge of the much larger windshield farther forward, as in so-called “cab forward” design, to keep the effective frontal area small enough to minimize drag. (This is done on 200mph exotic cars, which often appear to have short hoods but actually have huge, steeply sloped windshields for the same reason.) Nearly any Lamborghini is a good example.
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:47 pm)sexy roof, i love it, give me my volt. keep it up lyle, wooooooo.
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:53 pm)Re: my #137…. Oh, and I wouldn’t call a Lamborghini’s hood & windshield design boring! For example, have a look at this one….
http://www.autounleashed.com/images/lamborghini_alar.jpg
Aug 30th, 2008 (12:58 pm)Popular Mechanics has a ‘spy report’ on the Volt (don’t know why they call it spy, but w/e):
“Susan Docherty, GM’s North American vice president of Buick, Pontiac and GMC, even suggested that if one of her three brands were to get its own version of the upcoming Chevrolet Volt, it would almost certainly be Pontiac
We’ve already heard that GM may offer a Cadillac version of the Volt. And since the Volt’s “E-Flex” powertrain has been such an expensive project for the company, it will need to diversify those resources across at least three brands. In fact, GM has said the Volt is its single most important future project. So much so that we recently reported it could lead to less engineering resources for the next-gen Corvette (the one after the Corvette ZR1).”
——
Source:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4280209.html
Aug 30th, 2008 (1:01 pm)Re: my #139, or better yet, this one………..
http://www.motorauthority.com/images/Odds/Designers/Lambo-09-07/Lamborghini_Embolado_01_by_sefsdesign_MotorAuthority_001.jpg
( I originally wanted the Volt’s front end to look more like this!)
Aug 30th, 2008 (1:28 pm)#118 Statik
There actually is a federal program in the States. It’s a $2000 tax credit. The bigger money is in the state utility rebate programs. The solar industry says they do well when the climate is good for solar, and the climate has nothing to do with the weather.
Schwarzenegger pushed for a plan that would put solar panels on a million homes. This actually works in California because the only time when there is not a surplus of electricity is in the summer for a few weeks during the afternoons. Solar production dovetails perfectly with this, allowing the utilities to forego new sources of short term electricity which can be very expensive. It also initiated a flurry of venture funding for solar technologies which are turning out to be fruitful — tech companies in the field claim the next gen of thin film solar panels should drive the price of a kWh below 4 cents, making it the least expensive source of power.
The rebates are filed by the company that installs the panels. Some people do this themselves but personally I think anything that involves penetration of the roof is best done by people who know what they are doing. If you have a grid tie system — and most do — then you are credited when the system produces more kWh than it produces. This is the “meter runs backwards” idea. If you produce more than you use over the course of a year you get paid at virtually zero so there is no incentive to oversize the system beyond what you think you’ll use.
For SoCal your 6 KW system would be enormous. Here the standard would be a 2-4 kWh system, with a 3 kWh system producing something less than 5000 kWh/year. After rebates the installed cost runs between $4500 – $5000 a KW.
I’m unclear if you every get a payback even after the rebates. I can’t say the decision would be strictly economic, there is definitely a community service component. You probably know that. However, here you more or less can expect to recapture your cost of adding the panels. The math may work a bit differently if the production is significantly less in the far north, but if you can sell at $.42/kWh I’d think the recapture would work out for you there as well. Selling here at $.42 would be a money maker.
Aug 30th, 2008 (1:44 pm)Check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7762099
Cost of Lit Ion batteries to come down sharply over next two years.
Aug 30th, 2008 (2:44 pm)#142 DonC
Yupe. Fully agree.
I waited several years on ‘thin film’ tech, like 2-3…I finally just gave in and went conventional. Now over 2 years later, I’m up and running…and still nothing on ‘cheap/affordable’ panelling. It is coming, but like all revolutions…very slow. Everything gets gobbled up right now my gov’t/industry.
I’ve done ‘the math’/research at the state level for a few people. It seems like a typical ‘payback’ period for most states is 15-18 years…which is along time (especially when I’m looking at 8-9 year payback). Too long in my opinion to make people see fiscal payback or get excited.
As for my system, yes 6kW would be enormous in SoCal…but in Toronto, not so much with the average day. I get around 4.2-4.3 hours average in a day.(kWh/m2).
It peaks around 6 in July/August, but goes as low as 2 in Decemeber/January. I generate about 8500/year…in SoCal, that number would probably be more like 12,500.
I wouldn’t suggest doing the system yourself like I did, unless you know what your doing…or have handy friends. Also, it is near impossible I hear to get your rebates in the US without using a ‘professional.’
Thats why I like the system that is unique to my province…they really don’t give a hoot about who or how to get with the program, they do a site survery before you get started and all that jazz…but basically you produce, you get paid. Very simple to understand, no fancy dances…I think that is the way to go to get people adopting the tech.
Aug 30th, 2008 (2:59 pm)#66 cybereye:
Good advice. Thanks. BTW, I really like the “eye” although, when I’m feeling a bit paranoid, I sometimes think that Dick Cheney is watching me through it.
#69 Andrew:
Thanks. Well said.
#85 khooper:
I think that Pacific Gas and Electric in northern California is experimenting with that very idea. I think that they are using recycled Prius batteries. I’ve not herd that Prius batteries have been wearing out much, so I’m not sure where they get them. On the other hand, we see quite a few totalled Priuses at the insurance company salvage auctions, so maybe that genertes enough to experiment with.
Aug 30th, 2008 (3:19 pm)I have to agree with Keaton.
The white “i Pod” plastic is passe.
I hope they have an option for something classy like a basic black, or a brushed aluminum look.
Aug 30th, 2008 (5:37 pm)A123 filed for IPO in early August. This speaks volumes.
Aug 30th, 2008 (9:58 pm)I am withholding my judgment of the Volt until I see the actual production car up close and personal. I wish GM and especially Chevrolet all the luck in the world. I hope to own a Volt one day. My $14,000 deposit is ready and is growing by $1,200+ dollars per month. I will most likely have to spend some of that for a “gap car”, I am sorry to say. It “may” be a Chevrolet or Saturn.
Aug 31st, 2008 (6:23 am)GE has invested in A123, the Think (car) selected A123, Hymotion (Prius Extender) uses A123. The cells are inherently safe ( no fire risk) and are tough (take a lot of abuse and still work great). Lots of packs have been manufactured for Black & Decker and DeWalt. The only reasons I can think of GM not using A123 would be a non engineering ones.
Aug 31st, 2008 (5:15 pm)#120 Statik
I believe Lutz is implying that he is pleased the battery cell operates at -40 degrees (or in extreme cold). I do not believe that the LG manganese based batteries can do that. A123 has demonstrated that its cells easily operate at -20 degrees centigrade (with only 20% capacity penalty).
I must also vote for A123. All the body language is for this.
However, unlike Dave G., I am not sure that A123 has got its cell manufacturing under control. The 500 cells used are the A123 32157 which are huge 30 Wh (or more) cells – and their manufacturing is vastly more complicated than the standard 18650 or even the 26650.
Dave G – any info on the state of the 32157 – which is a truly revolutionary batery?
Aug 31st, 2008 (6:32 pm)#140 Statik — Thanks for the link to the article about a possible Pontiac EREV. From the description, it sounds like the sporty car that we once thought the Volt was going to be. Now that the Volt has moved to being more an average car, GM still needs the sporty one, and Pontiac does seem like a logical brand identity.
Aug 31st, 2008 (7:06 pm)Statik@136 said in part:
You haven’t been too chatty lately Tag, busy long weekend?
Actually, just lurking. Trying to improve my ability to NOT post when something irks me. Shooting for “Don’t sweat the petty stuff”…
The family went to an amusement park today to mostly walk around and darned didn’t a guy’s T-shirt make me think of you. I forget the exact wording but the gist of it was that “I’m always right and I know it…” Only thought of you because, of course, you are both (g).
What do Canadians do on Labor Day? I guess I should say, “Do you have the same holiday….”
Be well,
Tag
Aug 31st, 2008 (8:50 pm)Statik@136 said in part:
You haven’t been too chatty lately Tag, busy long weekend?
Actually, just lurking. Trying to improve my ability to NOT post when something irks me. Shooting for “Don’t sweat the petty stuff”…
The family went to an amusement park today to mostly walk around and darned didn’t a guy’s T-shirt make me think of you. I forget the exact wording but the gist of it was that “I’m always right and I know it…” Only thought of you because, of course, you are both (g).
What do Canadians do on Labor Day? I guess I should say, “Do you have the same holiday….”
Be well,
Tag
—————
Very amusing Tag. Yeah we have the same holiday…and much like yourselves I’m sure you don’t have a clue what to do with it….or on it.
I plan on perhaps going for a walk in the monring. Family picnic/BBQ in the afternoon (if it doesn’t rain) and wrap the whole thing up with hanging out with some buddies watching a meaningless sporting event and playing poker.
I guess I do know what to do with it after all, lol
(Oh yeah, and spam the heck out of GM-Volt.com….I kidd…no, but really I will…no, I kidd)
Aug 31st, 2008 (9:04 pm)Statik@153 said in part
“…I plan on perhaps going for a walk in the monring. Family picnic/BBQ in the afternoon (if it doesn’t rain) and wrap the whole thing up with hanging out with some buddies watching a meaningless sporting event and playing poker…”
From the activities are you sure you’re Canadian? (lol). Maybe you were stolen from the nursery when just an infant…. Naw.
While you’re at it, take the Mrs to a good movie, like “Terrorist”. It has some scenes (supposedly) shot in Canada. Very scary action thriller. Do NOT take the kiddies (not that you would – it’s R rated).
Have a great Labor Day!
And be well,
Tag
Sep 1st, 2008 (11:50 am)I say the leaked production photos are much better. As for the photos of the interior, i think that it’s better than the concept, but its a little iffy for me.
Sep 2nd, 2008 (1:06 pm)The September 16 date seems to be confirmed in ads running in today’s NYTimes. A large picture of the Volt is accompanied by this: “On September 16, 2008, our second century begins. Visit GMnext.com at 8 a.m. EDT to experience the future of transportation.”
Sep 2nd, 2008 (1:50 pm)Don’t mean to come off as a party pooper but I have to say that from those pics I like the looks of the concept much better. The leaked pics look like just another ho-hum chevy compact car, IMO. Certainly better than a cobalt but the ‘electric camero’ I was expecting, and not what I would pay in the neighborhood of 40K for.
Sep 4th, 2008 (12:47 am)A123
Sep 29th, 2008 (10:58 am)Anyone have evidence on who the general has picked as a supplier of juice for the volt? I see many speculations such as LG Chem/Compact Power and A123/Continental but is there anyone such as a supplier or purchasing agent in GM viewing this able to give us an update?