Volt Battery Supplier Chosen and GM Comments on Production Photo Leaks (POLL)
GM vice chairman Bob Lutz has told reporters that the automaker has indeed decided on which of the two battery making teams they have chosen to supply the Chevy Volt battery packs.
Lutz would not specify which company team that is, LG Chem/CPI or A123/Continental. High ranking sources within those battery companies advise me they they don’t know either. The decision should be made public sometime between now and the end of the year.
Per Lutz, “the Volt is real … and test work is progressing nicely. We haven’t hit any obstacles so far for the batteries. They are all performing flawlessly. It’s almost scary we are not seeing any problems with the batteries.”
Source (Detroit Free Press)
On another note, GM is acting officially off guard about yesterday’s leak of pictures of the production form VOLT from the Transformers2 set. GM spokesperson Rob Peterson told reporters “you can tell it caught me off guard. I didn’t even realize it (the Volt) was out of the state of Michigan.”
Peterson also said the car in the video was “representative of the production vehicle” which would be revealed soon.
Source (Edmunds)
I have also received confirmation from other sources that the interior photo of the Volt was the same shown by Volt designer Bob Boniface at the recent CAR conference, as the picture below reveals, meaning that it is correct.
One question remains. Is GM secretly involved in the leak of these images to build up excitement to the actual reveal? While they won’t say when that will be many speculate it will occur at the GM Centennial Event on September 16th.
From reader requests, here’s a poll. From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?
Should the US Government Give Emergency Loans to General Motors?
- Yes, With Conditions Attached (60%)
- No (25%)
- Yes (12%)
- Undecided (3%)
Total Votes: 1,035
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Popularity: 3%
Related posts:
- BREAKING: Has LG Chem/Compact Power Been Chosen to Supply the Chevy Volt Battery Pack?
- Transformers Production Volt is a Skin Placed on a Malibu Chassis
- GM May Acquire Hybrid Battery Supplier Cobasys
- Volt Pricing to Take High Battery Warranty Cost into Account
- GM: Chevy Volt Battery Contract Not Decided Yet
(5 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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August 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I have to confess that the show car was already known to be just that by the time I got really interested; I have no idea what the interior looked like (so I’m not going to vote).
When I saw the video, I felt the way I did when I was last at a dealership, and they brought my new car around — wow.
When I saw the interior mockup, I thought, “oh, no.”
August 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I like the concept … as stated previously, it is what got me here in the first place.
Yet the mantra becomes a calming infulence
“It about the electrification of the car - not how cool it looks - forget about the concept”
I’m still on board and cant wait to become a first time GM customer — and I’m leaving BMW which is really saying something.
I’ll also vote I believe A123 got the battery contract.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I hope they change to color of that dash from white plastic to something more normal….
August 29th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
GM certainly knew this car was going to be photographed on the set of Transformers!!!
All the other cars are being photographed in action along with that new corvette!
August 29th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I just wanted to point out on this thread too, that we have gone past 40,000 on the wait list..
Go GM, go VOLT.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
#5 Michael
I just wanted to point out on this thread too, that we have gone past 40,000 on the wait list..
Go GM, go VOLT.
————–
Another milestone, I’m sure the leaked/not leaked footage will only get the Volt more publicity and that can’t be bad.
(I voted for the concept…in case anyone was unsure, lol)
August 29th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
A chance to repeat my astute comments from the tail end of the last posting:
Here are the cold facts: Toyota can afford to build the Prius on its own unique platform and body. GM can’t afford to do the same with the Volt. It rides on the Delta II platform, along with the future Cruze and Astra. It almost certainly shares many/most hard points of the body with them too. The overall shape (not surface texture) is very similar to the Cruze and next Astra, except for the tail, which appears unique to the Volt. This totally explains the mediocre aero Cd of .28., probably only slightly better than its Delta stablemates.
The problem I see (and I’m trying to be objective here), is that the Volt pretty much looks like any other compact car, for better or worse, depending on your taste. BUT does it look dramatically distinctive enough, given it’s unique mission in life and high price tag?
Regardless of whether you like or dislike the Prius, its shape is very distinctive, and speaks of its features (aerodynamic, high-tech, efficient, etc.). I would have expected the Volt to speak its unique features (and price) more…strongly, and eloquently.
The production Volt looks nice/cute enough, but it has a huge mission in life. This isn’t very distinctive.
Meanwhile, the 2010 Prius will likely be more expressive, unique and aerodynamic than ever. That’s the advantage of not sharing a platform and body with the Corolla.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I can’t vote yet because I don’t feel the Transformers images are clear enough, nor of high enough resolution, to really let me make up my mind as to whether I like the look or not yet.
While I do think the Concept is a sharp looking vehicle, I’d have never considered buying one of them because it was just too dang low to the ground and the top was chopped too low for my personal comfort.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I voted for the “production” Volt because it actually gets the mileage that GM had claimed. I knew the concept would have to change so I never tried to convince myself otherwise.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
First, it’s great to hear confirmed good news about the batteries.
Also, comparing A) the purple low def. picture to B) that one Statik showed of the Volt concept, makes it hard to like A
http://www.gm-volt.com/galleries/album/72157603653293621/photo/2172214421/Chevy-Volt-2007-Chevrolet-Volt-Concept.html
better then B
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/29/volt-battery-supplier-chosen-and-gm-comments-on-production-photo-leaks-poll/#comment-62650
Still, from the other photo’s, I think Bob Boniface and the design team did a terrific job of preserving / enhancing the show car, while achieving a CD of near the Prius. That’s a real trick.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Hmm, executives at both battery companies don’t know who was chosen? Coupled with the Lutz comment about the batteries working so well it’s scary makes me think that the battery supplier must be …. EEStor.
Stephen
August 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
The leaked fuzzy/semi-concealed photos of the electric blue volt aren’t really good enough to make a solid judgement on. The official photo from GM with only the front corner of the car with the cool blue glowing headlights show a lot more detail, then again, it’s only the front corner so it’s hard to judge the entire car on that too.
I’ll be a fence sitter and say that both versions of the car (the concept and the corner teaser shot) look good–just in different ways.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Awww c’mon you guys….. this is just a vote on which car LOOKS better….SO FAR
….you shouldnt be reading any more into it than that…..a vote for production only because it gets 40 AER isn’t really a vote for the LOOKS….
Dont be afraid of simply stating how much cooler the concept looks than the fuzzy images of the Civic/Scion/G35 love child…..
sorry — back to the mantra … I’ll be alright
August 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I came into this pretty late (#23114) when it showed up one day on FOXNEWS.com. It was a combination of the look of the concept and the similarity to a diesel train engine technology. I don’t know if I’m more addicted to the car or the exchange of this site (I check it several times a day everyday.)
I was really attracted to the concept car, but I am not put off by the “production car” as of today. As I said earlier, I like the color in the photo if it changes color in different lighting. I am VERY put off by the apparent interior user control panel for all the reasons that the others have stated that don’t like it.
I am actually retired, and the only way I will be able to buy one is to use part of my IRA or my 401k. But my theory is that that could be a good use of some of my IRA, since it has lost over 8% since last October. Maybe a VOLT is a better investment than Fidelity.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
To me, the car has somewhat of a unique look and I think it will stand out. Lets face it, most cars on the road share a similar shadow. You have the Camry, Accord, Malibu, (nissan whatever), you have all of the small crossovers, the larger crossovers, the SUV’s. The number of truly unique vehicles is not too high.
The Volt in the video has the rear wheels pretty far back (like the concept) and is a little wide for its height (like the concept). I think it will be easy to identify IMO.
If this thing delivers on performance, it will stand out even more.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Wow… statik (and others) we are getting crushed on this poll so far…
oh well….
#13 — hey down 8% since October isnt really all that bad, stick it out man we’ll get some of it back by this time next year — just dont look until then thats how I try to do it.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I hope it is Conti!!! (biased since they are my former employer as of two months ago) The batteries and battery pack will be manufactured in the USA and the battery pack was co-designed by teams in Germany and in the suburbs of Chicago, IL. Hmmm… maybe I should of stayed at Conti and transferred from the Powertrain department to the E-drives group…
BTW, I voted for the production Volt…
August 29th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I think GM leaked the photos and the video for PR and to counteract the news from Toyota about their early release.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
#12 Murray:
The question is:
“Which VOLT version do you like better so far?”
NOT “which car looks better”
August 29th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Actually I voted for the “look” of the concept car too.
Regarding the leaked images, it really is hard to determine just what you’re
seeing given the low resolution and the dark bluish color which hides a
lot of the details.
We still have to wait for the official release…
August 29th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
#18 — to be a stickler or anything but the last sentenence of the article is……
“From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?”
I guess the real question is would you change your vote if it was just about looks?
Either way, I’m viewing this as nothing but fun fodder….thanks for the poll Lyle………..
August 29th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Max,
Did you not read the paragraph above the poll question? Which specifically asks about the look.
“From reader requests, here’s a poll. From what you see so far, do you like the look of the concept or the production version better?”
August 29th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
“Is GM secretly involved in the leak of these images to build up excitement to the actual reveal?”
Lyle, I love ya, but I gotta call it as it is:
Wow, typical conspiracy theory.
Yeah, and the EV-1 was killed by GM so that other corporations (oil companies) could make more money. What next, farmers purposely don’t harvest their fields because they’re concerned that somebody else wont make as much money?
Has anybody thought that if GM wanted to leak the pictures that they probably would have done a better job of it? Better pictures, sound, the camcorder inside the vehicle while driving it? etc? Do you think their marketing department really would have done this bad of a job?
Wise up people.
death to oil
http://www.oiljihad.org
August 29th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
As a side note,
The amount of information on this site in the last 2 weeks is astounding given that we are two (+) years from the volts sales debut.
If this pace keeps up, we will be out of things to discuss before the car comes out.
Good job Lyle with all of this great information.
As to the conspiracy theory. I think it would be smart of GM to leak these photos. Obviously they have been teasing the public with the Volt for some time now and they know there is great interest in the auto press. Given that, you probably should not drive it around in the open without the expectation of photos leaking out. ON this pole, I think someone at GM must have known this would happen.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
i really dont like tike the interior (if thats really what it looks like) its plastic!! last time i checked plastic wasnt the best for the environment. it looks to “hard”. I love the interior of my Honda Civic and that is definitely futuristic but is by no means “cheap” like the interior of the volt looks.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I like the production model better although not crazy about purple. Also, if anyone is interested this is what Toyota’s top Engineering development team really thinks of EV’s
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/toyota-on-three-electric-autos-1334.html
August 29th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Ok all … today was fun … I managed to waste approx. 95% of my work day on this site today….
no worries, working in the financial services industry the Friday before Labor Day is usually a hassle-free day anyway….
Have a great holiday 1 and all….
Great stuff Lyle keep up the good work!
(oh and VOTE Concept … you know it looks better than Production!)
((mantra))
August 29th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
I’m with the concept for looks!
But unlike some other guys in here, i understand that it’s just that a concept. I mean was anyone else at Volt Nation did you see all the crazy cars that will never be produced? So i voted for the production, because the question was “which volt version do you like better so far” and i like the one i will actually be able to buy, and get 40 miles AER.
Hey Troll, you see the numbers, like i said your in the minority
August 29th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
I honestly can’t say which one I like best. The “pre-production” Volt stirs my mind, whereas the concept stole my heart. So I can’t really vote either way because I am pleased by both…that and the fact that as of right now, in testing, it is doing what its supposed to.
But instead of the electric blue-violet/white center stack, make mine blood red with a full black interior. I just think the touch-sensitive stack would look better in black.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
#7 pauln:
If the Volt meets the original performance goals - 40 miles AER and 50 mpg on the range extender, I really couldn’t care less what platform it is on, and I’m not really that concerned about the styling.
I think that the Prius is a fine car. If it was a Chevrolet, I would have bought one long since. Alas, I am not buying any cars from foreign corporations, whether produced offshore or here, so the Prius is not an option for me.
“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
August 29th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Love the production volt’s outside.
Don’t love the inside.
Let’s hope the obnoxious white plastic is at least an option so I can get it in black or even body-color.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Good job JonP…showing you just dont get it …. again.
This poll IS about LOOKS period ! and guess what….you agree with Statik on something …. you said
“I’m with the concept for looks!”
thats gotta hurt……..
August 29th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
#15 Murray
Wow… statik (and others) we are getting crushed on this poll so far…
oh well….
———-
Well, that is to be expected, especially given the venue. I’m surprised it is that close to tell you the truth.
Honestly alot of people would rather have a understated car, rather than something flashy. And thats ok, it’s just not what I personally signed up for. I can roll with it.
The question is will they pay the price GM is reported asking for this car once the initial rush is over? I don’t know, maybe. As I like to say, time will tell.
At the end of the day I get a EV that my family can all ride in…I’ll be happy.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
psklenar #8
“I can’t vote yet because I don’t feel the Transformers images are clear enough, nor of high enough resolution, to really let me make up my mind as to whether I like the look or not yet”
*** *** ***
This is why I believe that those photos were purposefully leaked. I don’t think that the purple color of the car contrasted with the smoke/black roof and the darkness of the image was by accident. And again, I’ll state that
from the top it’s difficult to get a really good view of this car, especially with these dark images. The obscured side view in the last topic shows that it’s a pretty nice looking car. You can’t have everything, we’ve had enough people complaining since the beginning that GM should have just used the old Malibu platform to save costs. Remember that this is an existing platform…Delta.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I hope I voted right…I went for the production model but the reason for it was I really don’t care much for looks, I went with the one that will deliver the performance I want. I want a car that, in case of a gas shortage, will still get me back and forth to work that week, even if I can’t get gas that week at all. The production will give me that eventually. The concept is just that, a concept, and will give me nothing.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
I think the production Volt looks very futuristic.
From an aerodynamic perspective, it has a wide, smooth front end (as seen in the Charlie Rose segment), the body is smooth with gently changing slopes, and it uses a Kammback rear end.
Now the Corvette has a Cd of 0.285. It has aggressive styling cues, with large wheels and tires, big fenders, and a large air intake. The Volt has moderate wheels and tires, small fender flares, and a small air intake. In addition, it likely has bottom panels to smooth the airflow under the car. I forsee a Cd of 0.26 or less.
Now, is it an optical illusion, or am I actually seeing a taper to the Volt’s body? See the picture from the rear of the Volt with several people near the car, and with the driver’s door open (I couldn’t get the video to load). Notice the distance from the front wheel to the white parking line, and now compare it to the rear. Does the production Volt actually have a teardrop shape?
Note that the EV1, which has a Cd of 0.195 (lowest of any production car ever made) had a teardrop shape. The front track was greater than the rear track. See the attached specs.
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
If they have done all these aerodynamic mods, including the teardrop shape, why couldn’t GM be approaching the Cd of the EV1?
August 29th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I voted in the survey but I’d prefer to have an asterisk by the vote. The side view looks nice. The view from the top not so much so. But the more I look the more I like it. I really think we’ll have to wait and see what it looks like from more normal angles. IOW it’s like comparing shots of models — one taken of the face at eye level and one taken of the top of the head from a ladder. Impossible to compare them.
#7 pauln
I agree that the Prius has benefited from having a distinctive design. What you’re missing is that, once the Prius tech is upstaged, what the design stands for is obsolete tech. GM has leapfrogged Toyota and Honda, and for tech folks second best tech is no tech.
I also think the production Volt is more distinctive than you’re giving it credit for and that it will prove more appealing than that of the Prius. I personally know of several cases in which daughters rebelled at the thought of getting a Prius because they thought it was completely ugly. (Yeah I live in one of those neighborhoods where most children get a new car). Rather than being a design triumph, I’d say the Prius represents the success of tech over design. I think the Volt trumps it on both counts.
The more interesting question is whether price will trump both style and tech. If the Volt could match the Prius in price, I doubt that the Prius could maintain a 20% market share. But the Volt can’t so the questions become what the price difference is, how much better the Volt is appointed and handles, how consumers perceive the value of a 40 mile EV range, and how price sensitive customers are. Not trivial questions.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#31 Murray
Have you read any of the post. First the production Volt is wiping up the concept. Second i’d say a good 65% of the post say “i voted for the production volt because…..” Every reason but looks.
So maybe it’s you that dosen’t get it. People are desperate for alternative means of propulsion, so desperate that they feel inclined to point out over and over that the looks don’t matter. Because at the end of the day i’m not here for the companionship as some of you guys are. I want to get my voice heard by GM. I want them to know that all that matters is a car that meets specs, not looks. Or at the least that looks is last in the priority list.
————————————————————
“At the end of the day I get a EV that my family can all ride in…I’ll be happy.”
Hey troll, now thats something we can agree on.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I’ve been on here since relatively early on (7,000) and I have had volt concept images as my wallpaper since that day. I will always love the concept and I am aware that it would be almost impossible for the production car to live up to my expectations. I can’t say that I hate the production version because the images have been crap. And as much as I love the concept car, I have seen photos from angles that made me think, “what the hell is that?” So I’m still waiting to make a decision on the production version, but the images from leaked video pale in comparison to the concept.
And for those people who say that they like the production version better than the concept because it is being produced is a BS cop-out. You know that’s not what Lyle’s asking. If right now, you could have your hands on the concept car (as promised) or the production car, what would it be?
August 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
When I saw the leaked video last night on my laptop, it looked a lot bluer than the pics at the top of this item.
I would have said, if anything, “just slightly to the purple side of blue” (as opposed to “just slightly to the green side,” it seems nearly impossible to get a shade of blue on a car that doesn’t go one way or the other).
Don’t think I’d care too much for a “slightly to the blue side of purple” shade, if that’s what it is. I think most of us voted for blue, which is why I thought it was great to see this film representative Volt produced in that color.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
I voted for the concept and I am surprised the concept is getting beat.
I must be missing something with the Transformer car.
I’m looking forward to the official pictures put out by GM and hope those don’t have a dark finish.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Your poll is flawed… it’s like asking when you stopped beating your wife… I don’t like either concept or the photos of the supposedly leaked Volt skin.
In any case, I can’t believe GM has picked a supplier but could possibly not tell either one of them for up to 4 months! That’s like playing games with the suppliers… it also needlessly delays getting those batteries into production… if you knew you were the supplier you could be moving faster to getting things ready for production (subcontracts, plant construction, etc).
For what it’s worth, I won’t be watching the Transformers sequel… I watched the 1st one based on the good reviews… but the plot line and the dialog was definitely targeted to the kids. Kind of like E.T. but with machines instead. It was definitely good marketing for GM though, every vehicle I’m sure you’ve heard was a GM model.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I totally disagree with those who don’t like the blue car.
I really like the look of the blue car, whatever it is. I hope they keep that look. I’ve always been a big fan of vehicles that are portioned like the blue car. It looks a way better than the concept vehicle with much better streamlining.
I know know that the sharp angle fans prefer the concept vehicle but classic styling has always been rounded. I think the concept car was very nice but looked out of proportion with a squished looking roof line. Anything less than a faux hardwood dash is not classic.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Those wheels look cool. They will never make it onto the production model.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Jeff M #41
I can’t understand the battery dilemma either. I thought they were supposed to announce the selection in Sept. and now it’s year end? You are correct on the production aspect, especially with 2010 approaching and a real need to ramp up production capability.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Jeff M #41: That’s a good point. They really seem to be screwing over the battery producer that they eventually choose and will potentially hinder the number of battery packs that can be produced for Gen 1 volts.
Maybe they have no concerns over volume (because they won’t be producing enough Volts in year 1 to stress the battery pack manufacturer) and they don’t want their competition to know what battery chemistry is better until as late as possible…
August 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.
My thought is, if there is one company that does not need to build a plant and can start mass producing immediately, then there is no need for GM to be concerned about production numbers. So they can wait a few months. And if so, then they picked the company that can produce immediately.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Jeff M #41 and Grizzley
I’m optimistic about the delay for the battery. Maybe it means that the battery will be better than the ones they’re testing now. Better could mean more mileage and which company can squeeze out a few more miles.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I wish the poll have added.. “not sure”. I did not like the interior volt concept looks and that alone would put it off until the Volt 2 Gen come out. I like the exterior of the volt concept look. Known that it going to be change. The Production volt look “ok”. I think the color gave me a bad after taste. I’m still waitting for more info about the interior of the Production. The Production version of the console alone is not enough for me to make a jugement. Again the color of the console gave me another bad after taste as well.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Get rid of the white console. Give me a deep sparkly red exterior and and red console.
Than I’ll buy one (as my wife will love it and agree to it)
August 29th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
My sense of the use of the word “troll” when referring to a blogger is to describe a sort of agent provocateur, who shows up on the blog and stirs up dissent, either just for fun, or to advance someone’s hidden agenda.
Thus, when someone shows up and starts indiscriminately calling people “trolls”, doesn’t that person become, by definititon, a “troll”?
I sincerely doubt that such behavior will get much sympathy from GM management. More likely, they will just tune it out, as will the other bloggers
August 29th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
#41 Jeff M - “In any case, I can’t believe GM has picked a supplier but could possibly not tell either one of them for up to 4 months!”
Yeah it’s not believable. Can you imagine the GM engineers working with the battery engineers for months and not talking, much less conveying anything? I can’t either. It’s too utterly contrary to human nature.
Assuming Lutz isn’t going senile on us, my only guess is either they are going to use both or they are going to use one for the Volt and the other for one or more other vehicles. Something along those lines where there are winners but no real loser. This wouldn’t be totally surprising since we’ve been lead to believe the availability of batteries is a limiting factor in production. Lutz has said both battery packs have performed perfectly and we know other vehicles are in the works …
August 29th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Some good comparisons between todays pics and concept.
“http://jalopnik.com/5043578/2010-chevy-volt-concept-versus-reality”
August 29th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
DonC #51
Lutz has also mentioned that one company’s battery design could be selected and another could manufacture it. That would involve both companies and keep both viable as suppliers, and both winners. Maybe both Conti and CPI are working together.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I voted for the production Volt.
If the Volt rides on the Delta II platform, along with the future Cruze and Astra to reduce the cost of the vehicle then I say good Job GM!
I live in Phx and the Prius are everywhere. I want to see the Volt produced in those numbers as well!
August 29th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Jihadi against oil
“The stone age didn’t end because of a lack of stones.” Good one,
but It hasn’t ended in many mid east countries.
I like your conspiracy theory comment.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
#53 Grizzly - It has to be something. Otherwise it’s simply too weird. If you’ve decided then what are you waiting for?
#52 nuclearboy - Interesting comparisons. Thanks. When looked at from some positions the differences don’t seem as great. The different angles make it hard for me to evaluate.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Amul #46
They can use any of the padlocked GM plants. Besides what kind of plant do you actually need to make 10,000 battery packs ?
August 29th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Oh, I believe that the battery suppliers don’t know which way GM is going. I’ve sold development software to the car companies and, frankly, it is a very unpleasant experience. You work with their engineering department and together discuss their needs and draw up requirements. You put together a proposal that meets their needs and they tell you to expect a PO any day now. After a month or two of dead silence you learn that they went with a different supplier who proposed a bare bones system that didn’t meet any of the “must have” features. The engineers at the car company shrug their shoulders and tell you “Their system was %20 less. That’s our purchasing department for you”. sigh.
If one of the suppliers actually delivers 50 miles AER but cost %10 more, than they will lose.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
The battery company with the best tech lab and most innovative ideas for better future batteries should be chosen. We don’t want to see GM fizzle because their batteries are inferior to others
August 29th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Ed M, #57. I thought A123 had trouble getting a plant together. I’m going from memory, but I thought they had a contract with a Chinese factory to build batteries, but then the contract fell through. So they were scrambling to find another factory to build them. This is all from memory, but I believe it to be true.
But I have no idea what kind of shape LG Chem/CPI is in, thus my question.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I just put in a 7kWT electric solar installation and can’t wait to plug in a Volt. We are (electrical) energy independent. Our California Governor wants 1 million homes to have solar electricity within the next eight years (the state kicked in $13,000 towards our cost). That’s a lot of potential Volt buyers.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Geesus California better start drilling off the coast for oil to pay for all those solar panels Ricky.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
A Toyota dealership in Palo Alto, CA is now accepting $500 deposits on the plug-in Prius. However, there is a disclaimer that there’s no guarantee that Toyota will be selling the plug-in Prius in the U.S.
http://www.mercurynews.com/greenenergy/ci_10327089?nclick_check=1
August 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Don’t care much about the look.
GM should pick both suppliers. So, they can build 20,000 Volts.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
noel park @ 50
I think many people view troll as a bad mean a$$hole person that don’t have a life. I don’t look at that way. To me a troll is a person that have opposite view against of the mass view. Some poeple start calling troll and then the people that been pointed as a troll will start to says “No, your a troll” If it get so bad, it get lost of that view. It does not matter who started the fight or argue.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Jeff @ #41:
I agree that it seems strange to hold off making an announcement on the battery supplier - but I also can think of a few reasons why GM wants to hold the suspense.
Let’s face it - there are several manufacturers all racing to pull off a plug-in electric vehicle. But only GM is allowing the public behind the curtain to watch it all unfold. Yes… I realize they are fighting a PR battle every day - and this is definitely giving them a little breathing room (very little…). But it makes sense for GM to wait until the absolute last possible moment in their development plan to make the announcement for competitive reasons. They are moving forward as rapidly as they reasonably can - and thus far they have been very accurate with their timeline. There are also many other components on this car that need to be sourced - so every one of those suppliers needs to chosen.
As for the vote… I voted for the concept look… just because if I had my choice I’d prefer the styling stand out more. But as I’ve said before, this car must appeal to huge numbers of consumers, deliver on a bold engineering promise, be functional, and affordable. In the end, I’ll be driving one no matter what it looks like. Go GM . . . bring on the VOLT!!!
August 29th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Grizzly @ 53
Recalling from my memory, Lutz says GM may use both. Only one will get the volt prize, the other may be for other e-flex model.
So the two may have to built the manufacture plants anyway.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
I really don’t see JonP as a troll, though he seems to want to set him self apart from as us having a better mind or something.
All I’ve got to say about that is everybody here’s got good minds or we wouldn’t be here. It’s not like we weren’t here way before gas hit $4.00 a gallon and we’ll be here when it goes back below $3.00 because our support of the Volt and alternative energy has scared the producers and middlemen of carbon fuels. It’s not like we’re all johnny-come-lately bandwagon fan boys.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
RichardG #60
heh heh, show off. Its good to see someone making use of the sun. What do you do for electricity when its dark or cloudy ?
I was in Phoenix a little while back and I couldn’t get over the lack of solar units on the roof tops. I was looking for them but didn’t see one.
Ahnie gave you $13,000, wow, what was the total cost ?
August 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I really liked the concept, angry looking headlights were cool. Chop top roof, shorty windows, see thru doors, etc. But, I think the latest shots of the production INTENT vehicles are beyond my expectations, beautiful car, great lines.
On another note, the Prius is the ugliest car every built by anyone, regardless of its mission in life, would rather ride my bike thru a pit of snakes than be seen alive in that God forsaken hunk of…. I’m sorry.
we’re counting on GM to knock this out of the park, I’m counting on them to stay in business, so I have a job. I work at Chevy dealership, repairing Chevys. Good site Lyle. take care all
August 29th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
It could be shaped like banana and drive worse; I don’t care. I’m sick of petro.
Lyle, nice work on the admissions from GM–they haven’t denied anything and from where I come from, that’s an admission.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
#46 Rashiid Amul Says: “Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.”
————————————————————————————–
Both battery cell manufacturers already have huge existing plants and can start mass producing the battery cells quickly. In the case of LG, they own huge plants in South Korea. For A123, they have access to huge plants in China that build batteries for their current customers like DeWalt.
In both cases, the battery cell manufacturing plants currently build Li/Ion cells with a different chemistry, but converting these plants to make the new chemistry cells for the Volt shouldn’t be a big deal.
As for the battery pack suppliers, CPI and Continental, the manufacturing plant is much less of an issue. Each pack uses around 500 cells, so pack volume is much lower than cell volume. Also, most of the pack complexity is in the mechanical design and software. The real manufacturing complexity is in the cells. So the pack plant is more like an assembly plant. This is much easier to build up quickly. As I recall, both pack suppliers said they will have a plant in Detroit if they are selected. There are plenty of empty buildings in Detroit these days.
Not to worry.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
cybereye
I thought trolls were attractively challenged little men who lived under bridges and ate a steady diet of billy goats. But what do I know. Notice I didn’t say ugly little men.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
#52 nuclearboy
Thanks for that link. It was interesting.
I’m curious. Why did you put your link in quotes?
I do it also, but I’m curious for your reason.
I do because my entire post disappears if I don’t do it.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Does anyone know how I can change Ed M to paper baghead ?
August 29th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I’m kind of bummed that the \Volt is not going to be a transformer in the movie. Of course, it’ll be a transformer in the marketplace, instead.
(and in the electrical sense, it’ll probably be a transformer too when you plug it in (and a rectifier)). Ok, I’ll stop.
Had to vote for the transformer movie version of the car. It’s much sleeker. I like sleek cars.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Dave G # 70. Thanks for the clarification. I honestly thought A123 didn’t have a plant in China anymore. Thanks for correcting me.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
#69 Dave B Says: “It could be shaped like banana and drive worse; I don’t care. I’m sick of petro”
————————————————————————————-
Well put.
The money we spend on gasoline makes Iran more wealthy and influential. They’re building nukes. They’re chanting “Death to America” in their parliament.
Meanwhile, we’re worrying if the Volt will look cool…
August 29th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Dave B
A banana you say, very revolutionary design. I wonder if GM has considered it ? Personally I like the petrol free Flinstone auto except my bunions can’t take hard stops.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
#67 Ed M.
After Uncle Sam allows $4,000 off our Fed taxes next year the total cost to us will be around $42,000. Not cost effective; but something that we wanted to do. We are still on the grid and use PG&E power after dark. We are building up “credits” at a rate of $200.00 per month (first two months) over and above the power we use each day. We have two air conditioners going right now as it is 103 outside. We will draw down our “credits” during the winter months.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
#29 noel park says “If the Volt meets the original performance goals - 40 miles AER and 50 mpg on the range extender, I really couldn’t care less what platform it is on, and I’m not really that concerned about the styling.”
I think I understand this point of view, but to me styling is important, and I think it is to most people. I just don’t understand why it is in GM’s interest to have styling that is so generic. Nothing wrong with it, but nothing special about it, looks similar to various Toyotas and Mazdas. Will people want to pay $40K for a car that has lukewarm styling? I’m not sure about that, even if the technology underneath is exciting.
The real news in this post is what GM said about the battery contract. Despite their comment that they like one better (perhaps a smokescreen), the fact is that GM still has no battery contract. No contract = no factory being built = no batteries. So maybe the styling issue becomes irrelevant.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Richard G
$42,000 seems like a lot right now but in a few years you’ll be very glad you did it so cheap. I forgot about the credits thing which will help offset electrical grid use. You’ve made a good decision in my mind, the more independent one can be the better.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
#72.
I put the link in quotes because I saw others do that and I had read other complaining about links dissapearing. I just guessed that the quotes would be the way to go and it worked. I did not try w/o.
On another note: The comparison shots appear to make the concept and the prototype look more similar than not. They almost cast the same shadow. The prototype is a rounded off version of the concept (with some other tweaks to the lights and fixtures) just like the designers had noted earlier.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
That opens the possibility that a utility could stitch together hundreds or thousands of recycled units to store power and send it back to the electric grid at times of peak demand. Truly great talking about mobiles should be done.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Jerry #68
No exaggerations please, “…would rather ride my bike thru a pit of snakes than be seen alive in that God forsaken hunk of…” this is a very serious site.
Now if you said, I would rather drive a monkey powered Volt mobile at 300 mph over the alkali flats with my bottom hanging out, that would be OK.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Ed M #58
“Besides what kind of plant do you actually need to make 10,000 battery packs ?”
*** *** ***
If you’re asking about 100,000 packs for year two, I’d have to say….a pretty good one! The complexity in the packs is that you’ve got to assemble about 300 cells in an environment that can handle the vibration of jars and bumps has a functioning and tested BMS that can bypass rogue cells and a TMS that can handle extremes in cold and heat that includes some sort of liquid coolant to accomplish this. Understanding this complexity there is currently no way to mass manufacture these on an automated assembly line. Sooo having a plant tooled and ready to make 100K+ of these packs tested to high Q&A standards so they’ll stand up to a 150K mile 10 year warranty is not done overnight.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
#59 maharguitar:
I agree with you. If both batteries perform about the same …the one with the lowest price will win. GM is trying to keep the cost to a minimum. I am sure GM has read the posts on this site when ever the price is discussed.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Ed M @ 76
http://en.gravatar.com/
to change the picture of your pick.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
We currently drive a Camry Hybrid and find that visibality is restricted primarly to the rear quarter areas. I hope that the VOLT won’t be as bad, but from the pictures I wonder.
I just signed up as number one on the VOLT list in Bremerton, Wa.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
#87 Grizzly Says: “The complexity in the packs is that you’ve got to assemble about 300 cells in an environment that can handle … Sooo having a plant tooled and ready to make 100K+ of these packs tested to high Q&A standards so they’ll stand up to a 150K mile 10 year warranty is not done overnight.”
————————————————————————————-
First, the battery cell manufacturing plants to build 100K packs per year exist today. For A123, they are in China. For LG, they are in South Korea. Both companies have plants with that much spare capacity today. Lyle posted an article on this previously. Also see my post #73 for details.
Second, while the pack design will be complicated, I don’t believe the pack assembly will be as complicated as you suggest, but we’ll have to wait and see on that one.
Third, Bob Lutz said the Volt battery pack contains around 500 cells (not 300) on the recent Charlie Rose video here:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/20/lutz-production-volt-has-a-cd-between-28-and-29-and-battery-extreme-cold-performance-is-good/
August 29th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Dave G #91
There’s no argument about providing the cells, they’re the easier part, the raw materials if you will. The challenge is the packs, which essentially are the battery and are pretty complex and at this time - to my knowledge - are made essentially by hand.
You may be right on the 500 but I could swear I saw over 300 cells for the CPI pack and actually less than 300 for the Conti pack. IIRC the reason for Conti’s fewer cells were the stability of A123 chem. and less need for redundancy.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
I have been very excited about the recent peeks of the production Volt. While I accept the production Volt for it’s innovative shift in powering the fuel for individual travel, the design changes are pretty major. I googled concept Volt shots which were similar to the angles in the recent peek shots and put them along side each other in a PowerPoint. I am still excited about the Volt, but the style changes are very noticeable. Also, why couldn’t the interior design resemble the concept more closely. It went from AWESOME to typical. I don’t know how the interior can effect the aerodynamics (assuming mass is not a problem of course).
I am still a Volt enthusiast. If the price is something I can afford, I intend to buy one. But, my enthusiasm is now strictly for the electric only drive. A bit anti-climactic to my initial euphoria over the edgy design as well as the e-drive. Oh well, at least it can seat 4 and it won’t have those dorky wheel covers that the EV-1 had.
The PowerPoint can be viewed at:
http://www.eternaleffect.com/Volt%20concept%20vs%20production.pptx
August 29th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
#90 Karl Schreiber:
“I just signed up as number one on the VOLT list in Bremerton, Wa.”
Has your local Chevy dealer started a waiting list?
August 29th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
#91 Dave G
Given current transportation charges a factory in Asia will probably not work. The battery packs need to be local. Tesla faced the same problem and had to shift assembly from the UK to the USA.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
I’m liking the Transformers version of the Volt better.
having said that, I don’t care for the interior, you won’t be able to use it by “feel” very well with all the flush buttons.
Also on the interior, I don’t care to have everything integrated like that. You cannot easily change the CD player or anything else because it’s all one unit.
The best part of the concept was the nose, if they could’ve kept the nose a little closer to the concept, that would’ve been the best part.
Oh, one last thing: I realize the Volt in the video is not production, but there is such a thing as tires with too low of a profile. It looks like it’s driving on the rims.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
My 2 cents worth.
Car that we will see on Sept 16 will look much better.
I think that the charge port placement is very good - just beside the side mirrors makes alot of sense - easy to get access to and harder to forget about when starting out….
August 29th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
That place on the interior console where the display is is going to a bear to keep clean. It will fill up with dust and crud faster than you count to ten.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
I agree that it makes no sense to have picked a supplier and not tell them. This seems highly unlikely. It’s also highly unlikely that they have told both and the loser is staying mum. Still unlikely, but a little less so, is that they told the winner and are still stringing the loser along. What makes more sense is that they have reached an agreement with both where one is getting the Volt’s 40AER contract and the other is getting “something else”. Better able to ramp up production of EREVs faster with two suppliers than one.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Stew #96
I’ve got to say, the tires sure fill the wheel wells, which gives the impression that they’re larger than they are.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
I liked the concept version better, from the inside point of view. The question was “Which VOLT version do you like better so far?” The question is loaded I think. I like the inside of the concept, and the outside of the production…
August 29th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
I LOVE THIS CAR. ITS THE FREKIN COOLEST CAR EVER WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!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August 29th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Rashid #47
Remember, it’s not just first run production for late 2010 that needs to be built. They need to start producing reasonably quantities for the next generation of mules and then prototypes. I believe one, or both, need to know now.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Oops, to late to edit. Sorry for the misspell Rashiid.
August 30th, 2008 at 12:03 am
I’m still in love with the concept car.
Be well,
Tag
August 30th, 2008 at 12:24 am
If anyone wants a better pic of Volt. Plz let me know. I can email it to you directly.
August 30th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Robert A Lutz says:
We deserve $50 billion in guaranteed loans
Small cars are going to get much more expensive
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/business/29lutz.html
August 30th, 2008 at 12:45 am
If Lutz said that they haven’t told the supplier, then they haven’t told the supplier. Duh!
I believe Lutz, but I don’t believe folks who obviously don’t have access to any info acting like they know something. Someone provide the logic behind the claim that GM “must” have informed the winner if they have chosen them. Don’t bother, we all know there isn’t any.
The more important question is whether this selection is for the Volt (and only the Volt) contract. GM has at least two follow-on E-Revs coming down the pike and I have no compelling reason to assume that GM won’t need both companies.
August 30th, 2008 at 4:15 am
Instead of “IPod”, why doesn’t GM stick to what it knows is a successful, rich and deserving interior motif like say “Malibu”? I think that would draw more interest at the $40,000 mark.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:03 am
Instead of “IPod”, why doesn’t GM stick to what it knows is a successful, rich and deserving interior motif like say “Malibu”? I think that would draw more interest at the $40,000 mark.
—————————————————————————————
Malibu has a rich and deserving interior? You must be looking at a different Malibu than me. (again, everyone has their preferences) I actually love the iPod look.
I think the biggest turnoff for most is the white plastic, I’d hope for black.
Too bad the exterior isn’t cutting edge.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:31 am
One of the great things about a market economy is that a lot of disagreements are mediated by the process of setting a price.
We are fortunate that Lyle has given us something similar here, on the page where we say how much we would be willing to deposit, and how much we would pay. Now I realize these values are hypotheticals on an unofficial list. Even so, in my mind I have treated them as real, and if someone from my dealer calls, I really will pay just what I’ve said, so these are bid prices.
All along I’ve been setting my bid based on a combination of styling and technology. I thought styling deserved a large premium and the technology a small premium (extremely innovative offset by totally unproven).
With what we know now, my opinion is that styling is average and technology continues to deserve a small premium. So I reduced my bid deposit from about $4K to about $500, and my car price from about $36K to about $20K.
These are the actual numbers of what I would be willing “to do today”, as the car salesman always wants to know
To me, these prices are a better indicator than Lyle’s poll is this post, as the prices allow degrees of enthusiasm, not just choices.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:50 am
I like the production design. Sure the cd could be a touch better but that is what Volt 2.0 is for. Better to get it into production soon and if it takes using a body in common with the Cruze and Astra that is just good production sense. It reduces the overall developement costs a bit or at least spreads it out. About the battery, I don’t really care which one is chosen as long as it works and is produced in the US. Got to go finish boarding up for Gustav but y’all have a nice day.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:54 am
109 Kevin:
Agreed. White plastic to me has always been the ultimate sign of cheese. It also doesn’t age very well.
Piano glossy black has always been, and since I work with electronics still is, the signature of a quality piece of equipment.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:55 am
#95 DonC Says: “Given current transportation charges a factory in Asia will probably not work. The battery packs need to be local. Tesla faced the same problem and had to shift assembly from the UK to the USA.”
————————————————————————————–
Tesla is a great example. Their individual battery cells have always been produced in Asia, and their battery pack assembly has always been in California. The UK has assembled other portions of the car, but never the battery pack.
So the point is that you don’t need a huge manufacturing plant to assemble the individual battery cells into battery packs, even if the battery pack design is complex. Note that Tesla uses 6831 individual battery cells in each battery pack.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Koz #103 says,
They need to start producing reasonably quantities for the next generation of mules and then prototypes.
————–
You are correct. That’s something I wasn’t thinking you about.
=================
Koz 104,
Don’t worry about misspelling my name. When I’m typing fast, I do the same thing.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:29 am
#47 Rashiid Amul said:
Can either one of the battery companies start mass producing batteries immediately? I’m thinking A123 needs to build a plant, but can’t remember exactly.
My thought is, if there is one company that does not need to build a plant and can start mass producing immediately, then there is no need for GM to be concerned about production numbers. So they can wait a few months. And if so, then they picked the company that can produce immediately.
_____
There are battery companies in the U.S. who do “contract battery manufacturing”. Those that immediately come to mind are 1) Crown Battery Company in Fremont, OH and 2) NorthStar Battery Co. in Springfield, MO. Those are the companies that Firefly Energy, Inc. has contracted with to build their “Oasis” Cabon-Graphite Foam batteries for the truck industry.
Could those same companies manufacture the Volt lithium-ion battery packs? I don’t know! But, if they could, those manufacturing facilities already exist. They might have to do some expansion and perhaps some retrofitting, but it is not exactly like building a complete new manufacturing facility with an all new work force.
We may not know the details, but I feel confident those interested in building the Volt battery packs are probably exploring those and other U.S. manufacturing opportunities/options.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Estero #115.
I bet they are scrambling as much as possible to be able to fulfill any orders that might come their way.
But I also don’t see either company really losing here. If one of the battery suppliers doesn’t get the contract, there are now so many automakers making EVs, the “losing” company will win anyway.
—–
Edit: This went into moderation. I would really like to know what word or words forced this comment into moderation.
Seems to me that some of those comments from yesterday had a better chance of falling into moderation than this comment.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:39 am
#53 nuclearboy — gives link to site with pictures comparing concept and production from comparable angles.
Thank you for this outstanding link.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:10 am
#62 RichardG
I just put in a 7kWT electric solar installation and can’t wait to plug in a Volt. We are (electrical) energy independent. Our California Governor wants 1 million homes to have solar electricity within the next eight years (the state kicked in $13,000 towards our cost). That’s a lot of potential Volt buyers.
After Uncle Sam allows $4,000 off our Fed taxes next year the total cost to us will be around $42,000. Not cost effective; but something that we wanted to do. We are still on the grid and use PG&E power after dark. We are building up “credits” at a rate of $200.00 per month (first two months) over and above the power we use each day. We have two air conditioners going right now as it is 103 outside. We will draw down our “credits” during the winter months.
————
Welcome to the solar power club, hehe. I think thats at least 4 of us. It’s a curiousity to me how there is very little ‘national’ system for subsidies in the US, every state seems has there own thing going on. Some states are really good…some not so much.
I live close to Toronto in Ontario, Canada. There is not really any subsidy directly related to purchasing/installing the equipment (other than you don’t pay tax on them). However, once you are up and running you can sign up to Ontario’s “Standard Offer Program,” which pays you .42 for every kW you produce. It seems like a good system, it’s simple, easy to understand…there is no ‘policing’ like most other programs, no paperwork, and you can see you payback/do the math immediately.
Total cost I paid out is probably up to around 30K on a 6kW system (which is pretty cheap if you don’t factor in I did most of the work myself and trucked the panels from the cheapest source myself, lol….I don’t even want to know the cost if we assign a dollar value to my time, but it was amusement as well to me).
Estimated payback after a couple years of tracking is at around the 9 year mark. I figured if I let someone else do it for me…more like 15-16. Too bad my house it for sale…I’ll never see the ‘cash positive’ day. Hopefully, it will net me a equal value premium on my house…and I can start over, lol.
Anyway, a good choice and a good thing to do. Congrats. I look forward to when solar is a viable/cost effective energy solution for most Americans/Canadians.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Because many of comments on this thread address Volt styling, I’m carrying my comments from the previous thread forward. If you saw those, just skip over these……
Now that several still photos (screen caps) are conveniently located at the top of the previous thread (thanks, Lyle), and we’ve been assured by GM that these are close to what the production car will look like, I want to offer my carefully-considered comments on the Volt’s styling…..
1) The 2 upper grill designs will look extremely attractive a) IF they’re made fully functional by placing GM’s actuator-operated, speed-controlled louvers behind them, and b) IF those louvers have a flat black (perhaps textured) finish to avoid the current Ford Fusion grill’s overly- simplistic “horizontal chrome slab” look (see the 2nd photo from the top of this thread)
2) The blacked-out top, whether mostly sheet metal or a combination of glass, polycarbonate & metal, is a handsome and highly-distinctive feature –hopefully, a) all windshield, rear hatch and sun roof glass will be a low-thermal-absorption glass, and b) the roof area between the rear hatch and the sun roof can optionally be ordered as a solar panel (with a small exhaust fan) to help moderate the car’s interior temperature
3) The car appears to have somewhat of a teardrop shape (see the 1st photo above), giving the front wheels a wider track than the rear wheels. This is EXCELLENT …..it’s both distinctive styling and it has an important aerodynamic advantage that automotive writers can endlessly expound about
4) A close study of the side photo (last one above) shows a) the rear taillamp assembly is distinctively styled & extends well around the rear and up the sides of the car (note the rear side lights), b) the headlamp assembly is handsomely styled & quite distinctive, and also extends well behind the car’s front
5) The side photo also clearly shows Bob Boniface’s low-drag, stalk-mounted mirror mounted on the door and that the plug-in panels (the silver “arrowheads” that connect to the mirrors) extend the mirror’s bold styling theme into the front fenders. (We now know that there are two plug-in panels, one on each side)
6) Several photos show the 5-spoke alloy wheels, which although they appear somewhat smaller than on the concept car, are bold and distinctive enough to contribute to the design’s aggressive look …..and will likely work very well with low-rolling-resistance tires
7) Finally, the side photo also shows the Volt has a horizontal “shoulder crease” in the sheet metal that visually connects the rear taillamp assembly to the front headlamp assembly, through the mirror-mount/plug-in panel trim, all of which are finished in chrome/silver like the alloy wheels, giving the car a bold, aggressive, highly-distinctive look & integrating its front, rear & sides.
…..Superb!
I LOVE THIS DESIGN & LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING IT IN MORE DETAIL AT GM’s CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION IN JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS!
August 30th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Back to the battery conversation.
I think if indeed a supplier has been chosen we will hear about it pretty quick, regardless if GM ‘plans’ to tells us sometime ‘between now and the end of the year’
I would think once a company is out, they switch time and resources pretty quick…and even if they have a NDA., things have a way of leaking to the public.
With A123’s IPO on the horizon they are forced by law to be unduly transparent. The fact they really only have 1 major customer (B&D-60% of their business) and GM is a monster contract that would drastically change the look/future of their business….I don’t see how this news does not filter through them very quickly.
Obviously, GM would know this as well. So between ‘now and the end of the year’ is probably more like…next week, lol. Unless they haven’t told the batteries makers themselves…if that is the case, both suppliers are unlikely to continue this ‘two party’ race knowing that the winner has already been chosen, thereby forcing GMs hand. (and GM would be negotiating in bad faith if they continued making ‘the loser’ participate under false pretenses).
So my vote is for ’sooner’ rather than later. (Just a guess, although I like A123, it’s more than likely LG…not necessarily for their pack, but for their stability).
August 30th, 2008 at 9:36 am
#118 nasaman
It is obvious that a trained eye sees details missed by some, including yours truly. Thanks for those comments.
_____
My initial reaction to the Volt pictures was like sitting on a fence; neither overly positive nor overly negative. I’m now leaning much more to the positive side of that fence, thanks to time and the comments by nasaman. I look forward to the official GM unveiling of the production Volt.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Having single source for the battery is indeed a risk for GM. GM should have learned its lesson with Delphi.
Delphi produces exclusive parts for nearly every GM car. They are now in big trouble, since Delphi has been in financial ruin. Delphi is asking GM for help, but the problem is GM needs help, so this could become a big problem soon. GM has no way to just 2nd source these parts, since they are so diverse and retooling would be both expensive and time consuming. Both of which GM cannot afford, especially now.
I hope GM has a better long term plan for battery suppliers. In a previous post, GM mentioned that it was planning on developing battery technology internally. When I read this initially I thought this seemed a poor decision, but now I understand better why they would want to.
Trying to second source such a key component, that use proprietary technology will be nearly impossible. So, GM is likely to create its own design and keep the technology close to home.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:46 am
I think I finally realized why this new Volt car design reminded me of another car. I realized this looks very similiar to a stretch version of the later model Honda CRX!
August 30th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The profile of the Volt actually reminds me of the current Honda Civic (short hood, large windshield). I actually hope that the mirror stalks and housings are not completely silver like they are on the movie car. They don’t quite blend in with the overall design this way.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:28 am
In the electronic industry many components require dual-sourcing before they are utilized, at all. If the gating decision on quantities built, is how many batteries can be manufactured, all the more reason to dual source the batteries and buy batteries from both suppliers.
As the volumes build from both suppliers you can choose to emphasize the numbers produced by the more reliable or cheaper supplier, based on actual experience rather than projections.
This also serves to protect GM if a sudden problem in manufacture, or the operation of the batteries occurs, you can continue to build using the other supplier.
As more Volts and its sisters are built, GM will need multiple suppliers anyway.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
#118 nasaman — On points about new styling
These are tiny points that most people will never notice. Even so, I commend you for your steadfast loyalty to GM.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I didn’t have time to read all these posts, so I apologize if I am repeating.
Doesn’t anyone else find it amazing that GM has a “production ready” car available for use in the movie???? I assume it is not using E-REV, but maybe this project is farther along that we are being led to believe…… And don’t movie productions require multiple cars, just in case they wreck it by accident, or on purpose???
Very confusing…..
August 30th, 2008 at 10:43 am
JIm_I@125 said:
I didn’t have time to read all these posts, so I