Comments on: Volt Competition: Mazda’s Secret E-REV Program, Toyota Forwards Plug-in Fleet to 2009 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/ Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:41:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: william B http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-135565 william B Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:29:28 +0000 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-135565 The GM Volt is showing the way that others must fellow and thats E-OK The GM Volt is showing the way that others
must fellow and thats E-OK

]]> By: mien green http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-64607 mien green Mon, 08 Sep 2008 00:46:11 +0000 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-64607 In reading the thread here, it seems that the majority of the posts here have missed the point, with the notable exceptions of Estero, Dave G, CM and a few others above. I believe that this so far closest announced technology competitor to the GM Volt is all about the advantages of the Wankel engine as a range extender. Mazda’s most recent developments with its rotary engine have been in the areas of fuel economy and weight, as well as emissions, power and wide range torque (13B-MSP, 16X). This means that, while fuel efficiency may not be as good as an Atkinson cycle reciprocating ICE, running the rotary at constant rpm(s) minimizes a good deal of the comparable fuel inefficiency, and more to the point, the potential saving in dead weight while the vehicle is in AER is bound to make an impact, since the rotary engine size required for 65-70 HP to run the generator comparable to Volt-like performance should be in the order of 0.5L or less. Moreover, with Mazda’s announced intentions of utilizing lightweight technologies throughout its nextgen lineup, the size and weight of the engine, generator and motor needed to move the range-extended vehicle along could be even further reduced, along the line of the Aptera and Hypercar arguments. Also, Mazda has been quick to exploit the inherent advantage of the rotary engine over conventional ICEs for using hydrogen for combustion, thus also positioning the rotary as an alternative to next generation fuel cell range extenders, should the hydrogen infrastructure ever come to pass. Further reading: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/26/mazda-declares-it-will-consumption-by-30-by-2015/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine In reading the thread here, it seems that the majority of the posts here have missed the point, with the notable exceptions of Estero, Dave G, CM and a few others above. I believe that this so far closest announced technology competitor to the GM Volt is all about the advantages of the Wankel engine as a range extender. Mazda’s most recent developments with its rotary engine have been in the areas of fuel economy and weight, as well as emissions, power and wide range torque (13B-MSP, 16X). This means that, while fuel efficiency may not be as good as an Atkinson cycle reciprocating ICE, running the rotary at constant rpm(s) minimizes a good deal of the comparable fuel inefficiency, and more to the point, the potential saving in dead weight while the vehicle is in AER is bound to make an impact, since the rotary engine size required for 65-70 HP to run the generator comparable to Volt-like performance should be in the order of 0.5L or less. Moreover, with Mazda’s announced intentions of utilizing lightweight technologies throughout its nextgen lineup, the size and weight of the engine, generator and motor needed to move the range-extended vehicle along could be even further reduced, along the line of the Aptera and Hypercar arguments.

Also, Mazda has been quick to exploit the inherent advantage of the rotary engine over conventional ICEs for using hydrogen for combustion, thus also positioning the rotary as an alternative to next generation fuel cell range extenders, should the hydrogen infrastructure ever come to pass.

Further reading:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/26/mazda-declares-it-will-consumption-by-30-by-2015/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine

]]> By: CM http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-63454 CM Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:35:24 +0000 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-63454 This may well be an instance where the Wankel advantages of small size and light weight outweight the disadvantages of higher fuel consumption, particularly if the Wankel "range extender" is not often used and high performance is desired. Now for some comments. "I wonder if Mazda is licensing the compound rotary engine from Moller International" No. The first working Wankel engine was made in 1957 by Felix Wankel at NSU Motorenwerke AG, and they licensed it out to other companies. The original patents have expired, so it is no longer necessary to license it from anyone. Moreover, Mazda has been developing and using Wankel engines since 1967, long before Moller even considered them for his flying car. "Toyota got caught with their pants down with the Volt hype, even moreso since it’s a car and no longer a prototype.” Toyota already has demonstrated fully functional prototype plug-in Priuses, with more powerful motor/generators and a different ratio in the planetery gearset to achieve a 60 mph EV only speed. It is somewhat comparable to the other GM plug-in project, the Saturn Vue dual mode plug-in hybrid. Compared to the Volt, the plug-in Prius has certain advantages and disadvantages. The Volt will likely have a larger battery and will use less gas for short freeway trips. The plug-in Prius will likely cost less, and due to a more efficient mechanical power link will use less gas on longer trips. Both will dramatically reduce fuel consumption. "Toyota has no Li experience" Toyota was the first to use a LiIon battery in a car, in a model called "Matiz", sold in limited numbers in Japan. An early precursor to "stop-start" hybrids, it shut off the engine at stoplights, using the LiIon battery to run accessories and "auto-start" the engine when accelerator was pressed. This may well be an instance where the Wankel advantages of small size and light weight outweight the disadvantages of higher fuel consumption, particularly if the Wankel “range extender” is not often used and high performance is desired. Now for some comments.

“I wonder if Mazda is licensing the compound rotary engine from Moller International”

No. The first working Wankel engine was made in 1957 by Felix Wankel at NSU Motorenwerke AG, and they licensed it out to other companies. The original patents have expired, so it is no longer necessary to license it from anyone. Moreover, Mazda has been developing and using Wankel engines since 1967, long before Moller even considered them for his flying car.

“Toyota got caught with their pants down with the Volt hype, even moreso since it’s a car and no longer a prototype.”

Toyota already has demonstrated fully functional prototype plug-in Priuses, with more powerful motor/generators and a different ratio in the planetery gearset to achieve a 60 mph EV only speed. It is somewhat comparable to the other GM plug-in project, the Saturn Vue dual mode plug-in hybrid. Compared to the Volt, the plug-in Prius has certain advantages and disadvantages. The Volt will likely have a larger battery and will use less gas for short freeway trips. The plug-in Prius will likely cost less, and due to a more efficient mechanical power link will use less gas on longer trips. Both will dramatically reduce fuel consumption.

“Toyota has no Li experience”

Toyota was the first to use a LiIon battery in a car, in a model called “Matiz”, sold in limited numbers in Japan. An early precursor to “stop-start” hybrids, it shut off the engine at stoplights, using the LiIon battery to run accessories and “auto-start” the engine when accelerator was pressed.

]]> By: RB http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-62455 RB Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:44:03 +0000 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-62455 #70 Statik said "I’ve said it before, the first EV that can cart my family around (3) and be serviced locally gets my business. I’ll buy into the ‘Buy Local’ for EVs, like I do for my food/clothes, etc, once the reality is that they are actually being made and I can go down to my dealership and buy one." Yes, me too. I hope that is a Volt, but it does not have to be. #70 Statik said

“I’ve said it before, the first EV that can cart my family around (3) and be serviced locally gets my business. I’ll buy into the ‘Buy Local’ for EVs, like I do for my food/clothes, etc, once the reality is that they are actually being made and I can go down to my dealership and buy one.”

Yes, me too. I hope that is a Volt, but it does not have to be.

]]> By: Cautious Fan http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-62353 Cautious Fan Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:29:44 +0000 http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/#comment-62353 #66 DonC Great point Don. If the goal is to reduce consumption, moving from a 15 mpg truck to a 20 mpg truck, is going to do more then from a Prius to EREV. #66 DonC

Great point Don. If the goal is to reduce consumption, moving from a 15 mpg truck to a 20 mpg truck, is going to do more then from a Prius to EREV.

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