Volt Competition: Mazda’s Secret E-REV Program, Toyota Forwards Plug-in Fleet to 2009
As the momentum builds towards Chevy Volt production, the competition are apparently not sitting by idly.
Autocar (UK) today reported inside information that Mazda has secretly been developing its own extended-range electric vehicle (E-REV).
The article reports "Mazda engineers are hard at work trying to develop a rival to the Chevrolet Volt." Inside sources claim that prototype trials are already underway using MPV bodyshells that use a rotary engine to charge the battery.
Source (Autocar )
On another front, Toyota’s president has just told reporters his company plans to move up the launch of a test fleet of plug-in Priuses to 2009, whereas previously these were expected to arrive in 2010. He also indicated Toyota is planning for mass production of electric cars in the "early part of next decade."
Source (Forbes )
Popularity: 3%
Related posts:
- Toyota President Claims “we must go beyond lithium-ion” to Develop Plug-in Hybrids
- Toyota Hybrid Manager Says Even His Wife Wouldn’t Plug-in Her Car
- Toyota Makes a U-Turn on Plug-in Lithium-ion Hybrids
- Look Out, Here Comes Toyota: Plans to Mass Produce Lithium-ion Plug-in Hybrids in 2010
- Now Toyota Plugs-in Too
(3 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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August 28th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Doesn’t Mazda = Ford ?
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a series E-REV Prius prototype around 2010 as well.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:08 am
This certainly is a testament to the good judgement of Bob Lutz and the GM team.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:09 am
It’s the race to the finish! It’ll be interesting to see who comes in first.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:09 am
MPV bodyshell? Will their E-REV powertrain fit in a coupe or sedan?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:20 am
With rising gas prices, cars like the Volt make a lot of sense.
I’m not surprised that the Japanese are copying it already. Recently on a trip to Japan, it became apparent how their manufacturing industry loves to take something simple such a kettle and complicate it beyond reason with temperature indicators, child lockouts, pumps, etc. I’ve never seen a refrigerator with 2 doors and 4 outside drawers outside Japan, either.
P.S. Toilets that spray water up your you-know-what are awful.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Personally I like the idea of an EREV in an MPV 5 shell, and from the number of people here complaining about only having 4 seats in the Volt and calling for a hatchback, sport wagon or mini van I think it will be very popular. Regardless of which you prefer I like the fact that there will be options.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:26 am
In every interview Bob Lutz has said that every automobile company is now working on this technology. So this is unsurprising, although it’s great that the development is being accelerated. The more cars using homegrown electricity rather than foreign oil the better.
For GM what is important is that they be first — which they will be — and that they make an impression on the consumer’s mind that they are the leader in the category. That’s the challenge. If they can do this then they’ll have a huge advantage going forwards. Market share will follow mind share, so the battle is over mind share. (Toyota has managed to do this with the Prius. Toyota is nowhere near Honda as far as being green and having small efficient cars is concerned, but the Prius has given them first place in the consumer’s mind in those categories).
August 28th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Good news. The more companies pursue the concept, the more credible the science, the more capital invested in the research, the more research gets done, the faster the technology improves, the quicker we all have one.
Two flextremes please, one yellow, one green.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:29 am
It looks like GM will get caught with their pants down yet again….Toyota will beat them to the market by an entire year…sheesh.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Toyota has moved up the test>/b> fleet of plugins to 2009, but Ford is still dragging their feet on anything with a plug.
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 10:35 am
With apologies to Satchel Paige:
“Don’t look back, something might be gaining on you.”
Somebody at the DNC last night talked about how our country becomes less secure as our industrial base erodes. I am not going to buy a Toyota, or a Mazda, or any other car manufactured outside of the US, or manufactured in the US by an offshore corporation. I firmly believe that every one of them is another nail in our coffin.
Alas, it is clear that I am in a very small minority. As I drive around LA and view the overwhelming mass of the above, I am always reminded of the Lemmings running off of the cliff.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Gary @ 5:
Yeah, but the toilet seats are heated too. That alone is worth the price of a trip! At least my wife liked it!
Did you have eel?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:42 am
jabroni @ 9,
The post says that Toyota “plans to move up the launch of a test fleet of plug-in Priuses to 2009, whereas previously these were expected to arrive in 2010.”
How does that leave GM beaten or with their pants down? GM says that it will have a test fleet of far superior, E-REV vehicles running at the same time that Toyota now says it will have its plug-in Prius test fleet running (I believe the plug-in Prius will rely on the same old technology as the current Prius, just with a bigger battery). If GM and Toyota stick to their timelines, Toyota will be the one playing catch-up.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Noel Park @11:
I’m right there with you 100%. The same observation here in Maryland.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Its nice to see GM with their cards on the table, leading the way. Others secretly follow, the key word here is follow. Feels good to know American engineers are the technology leaders again! Just got to wonder what will happen in the next few years, It will be good for us all! Plugins will be very common and multi fuel vehicles will arive in number. As multi fuel gains ground along with ev’s there will be many choices for the consumer… All good!!
August 28th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Mazda’s work is more meaningful to me than Toyota’s. As an American car buyer only, and someone who cares alot about car design, I do have to admit that Mazda does have some nice design and styling. Better than other off shore brands.
GM better keep the Volt styling fresh, appealing, and sexy or else Mazda may dive in here and peel away a lot of potential buyers who want the tech plus a cool looking car. MAZDA, may be the real Volt competition in the future.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Sorry for the lousy editing job (or lack thereof).
Tag
Relevant link:
http://www.forbes.com/reuters/feeds/reuters/2008/08/28/2008-08-28T093544Z_01_T6192_RTRIDST_0_TOYOTA-UPDATE-3-PICTURE.html
August 28th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Toyota will move forward the launch of a “plug-in” version of its Prius to the end of next year, from earlier plans of 2010.
This is Good news for all of us. More options and if Toyota keeps the Prius in the 20k to 30k price range then GM will need to price the Volt accordingly.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I would LOVE an plug-in minivan!!
Competition is good. I hope GM becomes the market leader, but competition is good.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:54 am
#7 DonC, you beat me to it. The other car manufacturers are probably doing a lot of the same stuff as GM right now (although my guess is they are behind by a bit) but all we hear about is the Volt. As long as GM can keep the Volt Hype going and deliver before the other guys, they’ll be the Prius of the E-Rev cars. That 1 car seems to be the face of Toyota these days. It would be good for GM to have the Volt be their rallying cry.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=adfMQ5wgKTGQ&refer=canada
and Associated Press
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioVfPOx0cSZqRPwsBkEfF5TiLkkwD92R79500
and repost of above
http://www.forbes.com/reuters/feeds/reuters/2008/08/28/2008-08-28T093544Z_01_T6192_RTRIDST_0_TOYOTA-UPDATE-3-PICTURE.html
August 28th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Noel Park 11 and Metrology First prepare to be slammed for being an American and trying to buy products that are designed and manufactured in this country. Maybe the light will come on in other peoples heads when they or there relatives loose their jobs to an overseas manufacturer. They will tell you that Toyota etc. give Americans jobs BALONEY, we are in the fight of our lives to try and save this country from foreign domination and we are loosing badly, as the dollar continues to drop what is left of America can and will be purchased at the fire sale because of the collapse of the dollar. At least three of us on this site share the same view but as in the country we are a minority and the point of ridicule for our views, and do not forget the profits that Japan makes here in the U.S. go back to Japan and the jobs they provide are at a much lower pay scale than the past. It used to be that when you changed jobs it was for higher pay now it is to survive usually at a much lower scale.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:02 am
#14 MetrologyFirst & #22 chevonly:
Thanks. You made my day. Maybe there’s hope for us yet.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:11 am
#21 Tagamet:
Well I called Arch “The King Of Links” on the last thread, but you are giving him a run for his money today. Many thanks.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:12 am
I wonder if Mazda is licensing the compound rotary engine from Moller International:
http://www.moller.com/news.htm
August 28th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Interesting that they are potentially considering a rotary for ICE. That makes a great deal of sense, its small, light, smooth running. Mazda has developed and field tested that engine for 30+ years.
I would love a E-REV Mazda 5 with rotary
August 28th, 2008 at 11:16 am
I would very much prefer to buy a Chevy-made one, as it seems that most of the major parts are standard for other makes of cars. I know a lot of people have complained about that but to me it’s an advantage to have things be easily swapped, and cheap.
I’m still hesitant about a plug-in Prius, as it was specifically made to NOT need a plug, and re-engineering one into it does not make it better. Plus a friend recently had hers break down, and it took almost two weeks to get the Prius part.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:21 am
It seems like just about every car company is in a race to try to break through and come up with the best electric vehicle. I still think that one of the better and cheaper designs is going to be coming from Aptera Motors. There car is the most wild looking thing, but if it can do what they say it does, then it’ll sure be a car to beat.
And it gives me confidence that it is being build to be a plug in vehicle, not just a retrofitted Frankenstein type thing.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:28 am
I’m glad other companies are taking notice to GM’s move on the Volt and are making competing products.
It won’t be a matter of which product comes to market first, but which product is the least expensive.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:31 am
…you know the beauty of this competition is that as auto manufacturers play leapfrog with electric vehicles, the battery industry will be fighting to get the contracts…which means more jobs…and lower battery prices. This competition may very well mean the beginning of new research and advancements in battery and capacitance technology. As a side effect, prices will come down. Now it’s not about who has the best PHEV/EV/BEV, but who can supply it to the consumer at the best price, which will all come down to the battery.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:33 am
#25 Jason M. Hendler
I’m very much dated on the rotary engine. Why did it not survive as a car engine? Was it fuel economy, reliability, cost or what?
August 28th, 2008 at 11:33 am
#27 Grant
Toyota got caught with their pants down with the Volt hype, even moreso since it’s a car and no longer a prototype. I don’t care what Toyota says-no one can re-engineer a car that fast.
#29 Mark
My sentiments exactly…
August 28th, 2008 at 11:34 am
noel@24
Re king-O-links -
Naw, Arch is the Master. today is one of those “atypical” days (kinda like seizure activity)(g)
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 11:35 am
chevonly #22
noel park #23
I have been silent long enough. Ya’ll have hit the nail on the head.
Being a WWII guy, if we loose this manufacturing battle America as we know it will be in deep do-do ! It is hard to do but I try to buy America as much as possible. Last year Toyota alone sent $7.4 BILLION back to Japan.We are going to have to stand up for America because if we don’t this country will become a third world country unable to defend itself.
God Bless America,
Tom M
August 28th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Tom M @ 34
AMEN (and thank you for your service!).
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 11:41 am
#31 Estero
The Wankel rotary engine was not the most fuel efficient, hence the need for turbocharging. But it was reliable and didn’t cost an arm and a leg, either. Primarily because it had many fewer parts than any other 4 stroke engine. My guess (and this is only a guess-I could be wrong) is that rotaries have a smoothness and balance that no piston engine can have because in theory, and often in practice, all 4 internal combustion events are happening at the same time in each individual chamber. The eccentric shaft by virtue of not having rod throws also kept reciprocating mass to a bare minimum. Perhaps Mazda feels that it is this that will make it far more useful as a generator type engine for its inherent simplicity and the ability to attach a generator to fit the basic profile of the engine (very possible). But Mazda got too much flak about the rotary because of it not being fuel efficient and having a very healthy appetite for oil. Maybe they’ve looked into the EREV thing and saw where there may be a practical use for the rotary in a generator type arrangement…
…but I have been wrong before…
August 28th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I think it is great that most of the manufactures are planning EVs and EREVs. As these vehicles come to market, our dependence on foreign oil will decrease. I think this fact is much more important to our economy than the name on the back of the vehicle. I would much rather see someone buy a Toyota or Mazda EREV, than an Expedition or a Suburban. Brand loyalty is a fact and the more showrooms that have EVs or EREVs available, the sooner our dependency on foreign oil will decrease.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:57 am
#20 Gsned57 - I can’t see any other company making up the lost ground. GM has a lead and is on the fast track. Toyota is in the awkward position of disparaging Li-ion on the one hand and frantically trying to build capacity on the other. It missed the boat.
#21 Tagamet - Honda is the maker of small efficient cars. It’s sales are up. Toyota has a product mix similar to GM. It’s not that different.
#23 noel part #14 MetrologyFirst & #22 chevonly - The big problem in regard to lost US manufacturing jobs is Walmart not Toyota. Walmart has designed a supply chain dedicated to ensuring that nothing it sells is made in the US — low prices and all that. (I wonder how many Walmart shoppers wouldn’t buy a foreign brand car?)
However, high gas prices are putting the brakes on foreign sourcing. Long supply chains make no sense if energy costs are high. Tesla planned to assemble its car in the UK but changed its mind as gas prices rose. If you want to reverse the exodus of manufacturing jobs the RX is $200/barrel oil.
At the end of day the auto industry is global and that is not going to change. GM is the number one auto company in China. What’s wrong with that? And if GM is the number one company in China what is wrong with Ling Chang (made up name) selling cars here? One person’s patriotism is another’s jingoism. What’s funny about this is that GM has proven it can compete globally. It needs to compete better in NA.
Keep in mind that you live in metro areas on the coasts. That’s where the target demographic for the Volt resides. Lutz keeps saying that the Volt needs to get highly educated consumers who live on the coasts to consider GM vehicles — right now they aren’t. That’s not because they aren’t patriotic. It’s because, as Bob Lutz has admitted, in the past GM delivered inferior vehicles. The Volt can change this and hopefully for GM it will. It’s a brilliant car with leap frogging technology. The bottom line is you can’t sell cars to consumers when you have no mind share, so the Volt needs to get GM some mind share.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Rotary engines were originally for airplanes I believe. They are wonderful for high rpm’s for long periods of time. The stop - go - stop - go of a daily commute is hard on those engines. I think rx-7’s might be some of the best looking cars, but having to rebuild/replace an engine every 60k miles is sort of a bummer.
So, in regards to the person mentioned using a rotary engine as a generator, I think that would probably be a good use for the engine as it would be running at a constant rpm for a long duration.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
#34 Tom M
Amen!
I posted a message on this website a couple months back stating one of the “top priorities” of whoever is elected as our next President needs to be rebuilding the manufacturing base of his country. The net effect of not doing that is exactly as you have said.
Like Tagamet said - Thanks for your service!
August 28th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
>> I’m still hesitant about a plug-in Prius, as it was specifically made to NOT need a plug
Then how do you explain the EV button and the ability to drive 100 km/h (62.1 MPH) with the engine motionless?
Reality is that the design was made for a plug, but not included to allow for mass-penetration into a market clearly not ready for one yet. They planned ahead for a simple transistion to larger capacity batteries.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
DonC@38
Just SHOW ME THE PLUG! Where’s Honda’s or anyone else’s plug?
Even a best case scenario of several mfg’s comming out with plugins, it’s STILL going to be 20 years from that point, before plugins make a dent.
We need to get started ASAP.
JMO,
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“secret”? Let’s be realistic about this. What Mazda is doing is normal business practice MOST of the time. There is no doubt that all the other manufacturers were considering vehicles along this line and no doubt some were doing it before GM.
It is only “secret” relative to the Volt because the main purpose of the Volt (as far as I can see) is as a prius-envy-inspired PR exercise. GM is spinning it as some sort of new-fangled-wide-open-and-accountable-moon-shot but the reality seems to be that we are being used as marketing tools to distract from their horrible reality. Strong, confident companies with good product develop products quietly and then announce them when they are nearly done.
As for the Prius, it has always been Toyota’s choice as to whether they want to beat GM to market with a plug-in hybrid. For all GM’s PR it is clear that Toyota has always been much closer to a product (and still is, it would seem) than GM.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Mazda still uses the rotary engine in the RX-8. The big problem with them was the side seals and emission compliance in the carburator days. EFI has fixed the problems by running the engine at a perfect fuel/air ratio. Also, it is an extremely smooth running engine, and would be good for a genset.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
#39 Anon
#44 Frankie
It would be a real bummer having to replace an engine every 60k miles or so. Does running a rotary engine at a constant RPM make it any more attractive for an E-Flex vehicle?
There must be a reason that Toyota would choose a rotary engine over a traditional ICE! Does anyone out there have a clue on this?
I seem to recall from years ago that GM had done some research and development work on the Wankel rotary engine. And, I thought they were to become the supplier of rotary engines for AMC for use in the Jeep and perhaps other models? But, that goes back many years and my memory may be flawed on that.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
#5
“I’m not surprised that the Japanese are copying it already” COPYING WHAT?? Maybe copying TESLA!
The idea of an electric car is not ground breaking technology…there are people building them in their 2 car garages. There are manufactures that make ALL the parts to do make an electric vehicle.
So far all i have seen was a headlight of something…could be next gas chevy malibu for all you know and a lot of hype.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
I don’t understand why people should panic. Mazda has never produce a hybrid and they are using a rebadged Ford Escape hybrid. After denying GM’s ability to produce the Volt, Toyota has recently changed its mind.
Does anyone think that GM doesn’t know that almost all automakers have been working on electric and hybrid cars for a while? GM’s focus and main objective stays the same: bring Chevy Volt in life in 2010.
So, good luck Mazda, Ford, Toyota. As Bob said lately, This isn’t going to be an easy business.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
re: Noel #11
I generally agree with you, but have been dismayed with the offerings of American car companies. I last bought a new car 2 years ago, and it was a Honda Fit. If there had been an American car that even came close to it (economy/quality/versatility) I would have bought it. There wasn’t, and still isn’t. American companies have done this to themselves, claiming that there isn’t a market for small cars, all the while Toyota and Honda eat their lunch.
Which brings us to this: I come to this blog because I am totally stoked about the Volt and its future siblings. I think GM is about to hit a Grand Slam with the technology and I hope it becomes central to their entire lineup in the near future. The sooner this all happens the better: for GM, the US economy and consumers, and for the environment. I am 50 and have never bought or owned a GM product. With the Volt, that is about to change.
I just wish I was lower on the list!
August 28th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
>> Just SHOW ME THE PLUG!
http://www.google.org/recharge/ …has been driving a small test-fleet for over a year already.
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/ …has recently begun installing that same aftermarket upgrade for consumers.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
#8 Eco Says: “Good news. The more companies pursue the concept, the more credible the science, the more capital invested in the research, the more research gets done, the faster the technology improves, the quicker we all have one.
Two flextremes please, one yellow, one green.”
————————————————————————————-
Yes! I agree with everything you say, except I’ll take 1 Flextreme in Blue.
One more point: There has been a lot of press about the Volt saying that it’s a hail mary, greenwashing, battery technology isn’t real, etc., etc.. Some of this has been coming from the Wall Street Journal. People with money read this stuff and believe it.
When other car companies unveil their own E-REV plans, it makes bad press about the Volt a lot less credible. This will change the perception in the press, which will then change the perception of investors, which will make things start to happen.
Competition is a good thing…
August 28th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Sunrise Solar has introduced its Solar Sunroof, a replacement for regular car sunroofs that includes solar PV cells to produce electricity. This can help recharge the vehicle’s battery, but it can also cool down the car when it’s hot, and warm it up when it’s cold.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/sunrise-solar-sunroof-electric-power.php
August 28th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
I think rotary engines are generally smaller than similar alternatives and that could be why Toyota is using them.
But I believe that one company I mentioned earlier, Aptera Motors, is not using a rotary engine nor diesel. And they still manage 300mpg!!! I doubt that the Volt is going to be able to do that. Aptera’s “secret” is their aerodynamic design which has like 1200% less drag then most SUV’s
August 28th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
#39, Anon,
Are you thinking of radial engines for airplanes, as opposed to rotary?
For cars / trucks, I believe rotary engines have low torque at low rpm compared to reciprocating engines, but compensate with high rpm to produce power, which they can ramp up to quickly. Depending on the design, they burn their oil, and don’t completely burn their fuel air mixture as well as piston engines, due to the much higher surface area / volume ratio, as compared to cylindrical pistons. Conventional rotary engines are also very loud and have very hot exhaust gases compared to reciprocating piston engines.
The compound rotary engine by Moller International addresses many of these short comings to offer efficiencies around 38% better than previous rotary engines, while reducing the noise by 96% (12 dB) and the cutting exhaust temperature in half. It would make an excellent range extending engine, as it could run at constant speed with high efficiency and very low noise and exhaust temp.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
50 years ago America switched from being a agriculture economy to a manufacturing one. Folks yelled “the sky is falling” and it never did. Ag accounts for 3% of our jobs, we get cheap beef and corn, and our farmers are the most efficient in the world. I’m thankful the economy changed (I’m to wimpy to work in the heat). The economy is changing into services now. I don’t know what the future holds, but based on the past I doubt the sky is falling. I think we’ll be better off. So I’m going to Wal-Mart to buy some cheap shoes, I’ll buy my car based on value and not where it’s made, and then with the extra money I’ll hire someone to change my oil, do my taxes, and fix my sink.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
#48 Glenn
I have a brother who is older than you and has never bought or owned a GM product. Not much chance he’ll ever change but I’m sure working on him along with all my other non-GM friends and relatives!
August 28th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
EREV is the future. I am not surprised that Mazda is working on one.
What would surprise me is if we knew of a company that absolutely was not working on one.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I agree with what GXT has to say in post 43.
It’s no surprise that word is coming out about more and more auto companies working on E-Rev platform vehicles. Unlike GM, most of the companies will keep these projects quiet until they are testing and ready for release. GM is putting on a big show because they need to. They are slipping into a dire position and need to drum up attention. This in no way discredits the work and engineering at hand unless of course they bring a sub-par vehicle to market that doesn’t live up to all the hype.
I’m glad to see many options in the works. The concept of the drive-train will be similar but the technology behind it will likely be different for each manufacturer and the execution will be vastly different.
With more vehicle in development this will allow consumers to find the right one for their need and price. I’m excited.
GM will likely be hurt somewhat if anyone else brings an E-Rev architecture vehicle to market first because they are attempting to make themselves out to be mastermind behind this whole trend.
I won’t buy a Volt just because they are putting on a good show now during development if something that suits me better comes to market around the same time. This is what competition is all about and I have no problem dishing my money out to the company that does the best job. I work hard for my money and it will go to the company that provides the best return on my investment.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
To post 56:
“I won’t buy a Volt just because they are putting on a good show now during development if something that suits me better comes to market around the same time. This is what competition is all about and I have no problem dishing my money out to the company that does the best job. I work hard for my money and it will go to the company that provides the best return on my investment.”
I totally agree, so far Aptera has what looks to be the best and most promising offering for the price. If I finally decide to get one of these vehicles, that’s where my money is most likely going to be heading.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
From the linked article:
“A year ago, at its previous business strategy briefing, Toyota had declared a successful entry into the full-sized pickup truck segment in the United States with the Titan — a model it had billed its most important ever in the world’s top market.”
Titan? I think they meant Tundra.
Oh well, what’s the difference? Both get 13MPG. The Japanese need to wake up and stop making only gas guzzler trucks and SUVs.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
#32 Firefly
“Toyota got caught with their pants down with the Volt hype, even moreso since it’s a car and no longer a prototype.”
I must have got caught with my pants down as well since I didn’t realize the Volt was already a car, I thought we had to wait until 2010 for that. Last I heard they were still running Malibu mules, so I wouldn’t even say they have a prototype yet.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
#51 Anon Says: “But I believe that one company I mentioned earlier, Aptera Motors, is not using a rotary engine nor diesel. And they still manage 300mpg!!! I doubt that the Volt is going to be able to do that. Aptera’s “secret” is their aerodynamic design which has like 1200% less drag then most SUV’s”
————————————————————————————–
Aptera is more like an enclosed 3-wheel motorcycle. You need a motorcycle license to drive it. So I wouldn’t call it a car.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Amul@55
“EREV is the future. I am not surprised that Mazda is working on one.
What would surprise me is if we knew of a company that absolutely was not working on one.”
Ford.
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
This is a chance for you socialists to support the GM union thugs. To be consistent you must now buy GM Volt even if it is not quite as good as the Toyota version.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Actually, because it’s enclosed, you need neither a special license nor helmet to drive the vehicle. They already have a few registered in CA and there are videos on YouTube
August 28th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Perhaps I am missing something, but it looks to me that Toyota just jumped a year ahead of GM in the race for marketing the first PHEV.
GM is aiming to start limited production in Nov 2010, with only about 10,000 units planned for the 2011 model run, and then mass production so we can buy then in 2012. Meanwhile, Toyota is bring out limited production in late 2009, and expects to mass produce them for the 2011 model run. Where did I go wrong?
August 28th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Don’t know, but i think the volt is already severely overrated. But if I’m wrong, awesome. Just means more competition and better products for the future.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
#42 Tagamet
You are too pessimistic. Way too pessimistic. I remember in 1995 telling some folks in the telecommunications industry that wireless (mobile) phones were going to displace wire line products. I thought it would start in a few years and then happen gradually. They thought I was loony. Years passed. Nothing happened. Then one year there were reports of a few young urban professionals who weren’t signing up for wire line service. The next year it started registering. Two years later it was a torrent.
The moral is that even predictable change takes longer to start than seems reasonable but, when it starts, it happens faster than imagined. This will happen with EVs. The Volt is just the beginning. Be patient. The flood is coming.
The plug is also not the only way. Getting better mpg from working vehicles is also important. GM claims the hybrid Silverado will get 40% better mileage (city) than the standard. Over 15,000 city miles that’s 371 gallons, which is more gallons saved than if you turned your Prius into a BEV. Big savings can be had without a plug.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Anon, I think you are mistaken with Aptera being the leader and the one to beat, they aren’t in the same market at all. I’ve followed Aptera and wish them all the best, but it is very definitely a niche vehicle. They are only selling locally as they have no dealer/service network, it’s a 3 wheel vehicle that can’t used as a primary car anywhere that gets snow. It’s a 2 seater so can’t be a primary car to families. The Volt won’t have any of these drawbacks.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
If you are looking for a family vehicle, then yea, the Aptera probably isn’t for you. But if you never or rarely need more than one passenger, you have to admit that the Aptera is going to be a great contender.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
20 days to unveiling - GO VOLT! GO GM!
August 28th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
I’m all for supporting your home turf as much as you can. “Buy America”…well in my case “Buy Canadian,” but I’m still going to buy the first EV that anyone produces.
Go ahead buy American made, food, clothes, steel, beef, whatever. Thats a good idea. I subscribe to the theory myself.
But somethings are good for the world. Some things should be supported regardless of origin. Some things are bigger than borders.
A EV is something that is good for the world, and if America/Canada isn’t making one available, or they aren’t putting out enough, or at at price that ‘the people’ can afford, I am going to buy it wherever I can…regardless of any guilt trip/morale high ground that anyone attempts to put on me.
Dollar to donuts (doughnuts), there won’t be a ‘USA’ or a ‘Canada’ or a ‘Japan’ in a few hundred years…but there still is going to be a world, and my future generations are going to live in it.
I’m not riding around in another G6, if I can buy a plug-in Prius or a Mitsu i-Miev. I’m not going to ‘NOT buy’ a foreign made EV, while I wait for my local Chevy dealership in Toronto to hook me up with a Volt, polluting the area I live in, under the banner of patriotism or national pride.
I’ve said it before, the first EV that can cart my family around (3) and be serviced locally gets my business. I’ll buy into the ‘Buy Local’ for EVs, like I do for my food/clothes, etc, once the reality is that they are actually being made and I can go down to my dealership and buy one.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
DonC@66
MOI ? Pessimistic? lol, not I.
I’m just looking at all the articles that talk about the time necessary to “turn over” a very large number of vehicles.
I really DO hope you’re right ! (but your not (g)).
I’m also not on board that increases in fuel (petroleum) efficiency is such a great deal. We need a choice of fuels - other than oil, Until we get that, we’re stuck with dependence on “unfriendly” sources of fuel..
JMO,
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
#66 DonC
Whats a wire line? lol (Ma Bell still gets me for my business though…sigh).
“The moral is that even predictable change takes longer to start than seems reasonable but, when it starts, it happens faster than imagined. This will happen with EVs. The Volt is just the beginning. Be patient. The flood is coming.”
Painful…but very true. Thats the EV wave in a nutshell.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
It doesnt matter which car company you buy from so much as where the money goes for the gas you buy to fuel the car.
Example:
I buy GM and you buy Toyota. So 50% of the one-time money goes to Japan and 50% to USA. 100% of all future gas goes to BAD!! countries who all hate the USA.
I’d rather see money go to Japan then to oil nations!!!
Toyota is public company, so if you buy their stock then the money that goes to Japan will come back to you in the USA.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I did a little reading on Wikipedia, and found that in strict terms, Mazda doesn’t use a rotary engine, but rather a “Wankel engine”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
True rotary engines seem to have died out before World War II:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine
The Wankel engine has several advantages, most notably a much higher output for similar size and weight, or conversely, much less size and weight for the same output. This is great for small ICE sports cars and racing cars.
However, the Wankel engine not as efficient as a normal Otto cycle piston engine, and is much less efficient than an Atkinson cycle piston engine, which is what the Prius and Volt use. In addition, Wankel engines tend to burn more oil and wear out faster.
So I’m not sure why Mazda is using this engine. I know it’s sort of their trademark, but at first glance it doesn’t seem to fit. With the aggressive regenerative braking used in the Prius and Volt, weight is not a big issue, so the main advantage of the Wankel engine (size and weight) is lost. Maybe Mazda has something up their sleeve that we don’t know about…
August 28th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
38 Don. C,
Toyota didn’t “miss the boat”. The boat hasn’t yet docked and they are first in line waiting for the boat to arrive. GM is still packing their bags at home while they spend their time trying to convince the wife that they have already arrived and the boat took them to the moon. And the kids are totally convinced that it is true.
It seems that Toyota is already as far along as GM (if not farther) when it comes to Li-Ion and they are much farther along with an end product. At the time of Toyota’s Li-Ion denial GM was talking about a niche product years out and Toyota was talking about a mass-market product to be available sooner.
Even given that timing, It would still be true TODAY to say that, given the cost and manufacturing capacity, Li-Ion is not possible for a mass-market vehicle like the Prius is or like the Volt pretends to be.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
So toyota is uesing lithium batteries? For there plug in’s ? Were is the plug and how much will it cost?
August 28th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
#53 Cautious Fan
It is easy to understand your modifications to look for the best cost/value. You’re not alone!
What I’m saying is this country needs to rebuild its manufacturing base for a variety of reasons. It all translates into jobs, jobs and more jobs. But, it will not be easy.
We heard not long ago there will be approx. 5 minutes labor content in the Volt battery pack. If that is correct, then it makes common sense to make the battery pack in this country instead of importing it from elsewhere because of the jobs that will be created, the taxes it will generate, etc. And, there are other things beside battery pacls that can be manufactured in this country as well.
The U.S. has the technology that can be exploited to create more and more manufacturing jobs; it is good for our economy and the future of our country. Our government needs to put the policies, laws, etc. in place that will allow this to happen and then get the heck out of the way so the “mom and pop” shops and others can go to work rebuilding our manufacturing base.
Now, I’ll get off my soap box!
August 28th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
I was in the Saturn show room last weekend and they are saying the
plug in Saturn will be available in 2009 in limited quantities. I think
Saturn is still part of GM ??
Tom
August 28th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
From the Forbes article:
“As part of those efforts, Toyota said it would move forward the launch of a “plug-in” version of its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car, which can recharged through an electric socket. It will be available to fleet customers at the end of next year, from earlier plans of 2010.”
Notice … END of 2009. So Totyota moved it up maybe a few months. And it’s still only available as a fleet vehicle. It’s not like any of us will be able to actually buy one in 2009. Seems kind of like a non-story to me.
If I were GM, I would start hand-building and selling/leasing Volts ASAP. Before the factory is ready, even if it’s just a couple thousand. They’re going to be be hand building a couple hundred in 2009 anyway (pretty sure I remember hearing Mr Lutz say that). So scale that up and just hand-build a few more. GM would certainly take a loss on each car, but in terms of free-PR, mind-share, and green-credits, each car would be worth its weight in gold. It might even open some eyes among members of the “I hate American cars but I’ve never owned one” club.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
John Says: “It doesn’t matter which car company you buy from so much as where the money goes for the gas you buy to fuel the car.
…
I’d rather see money go to Japan then to oil nations!!!”
————————————————————————————–
Well put!
Japan doesn’t have terrorists that are trying to build nuclear bombs to destroy America. Japan has a stable democratically elected government, religious freedoms, and a market based economy that is, in many ways, the envy of the world.
I’m not in love with Japan, but just compare them to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, Venezuela, and most other countries that export oil…
So I have no problem with people buying a Prius in order to keep oil money out of the hands of terrorists and governments that are hostile towards the United States. In fact, I think it’s patriotic. If you need a car now, today, buy a Prius. It’s probably the most efficient car you can buy right now in the U.S.. On the other hand, if you can wait a couple of years, buy a Volt!
August 28th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
The first car to the market will not necessarily be the winner. The first PDA to the market was the doomed Apple Newton. The soon-to-follow Palm, however, became the standard bearer for years. It’s OK to be a year later if you have a better product.
Besides, GM has already won the framing war. Notice how independent media are refering to the Mazda as “Volt Competition”?
Also, this underscores how GM is wise to differentiate themselves in ways that the competition can’t easily copy; such as integration of the wireless OnStar network into the product.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Well people on this board think that the Volt is still in protoype your crazy. The volt is a real car. You right tom M the saturn vue will have a a plug in capability for sale in 2009.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
#78 Paul-R Says: “If I were GM, I would start hand-building and selling/leasing Volts ASAP. Before the factory is ready, even if it’s just a couple thousand. They’re going to be be hand building a couple hundred in 2009 anyway (pretty sure I remember hearing Mr Lutz say that). So scale that up and just hand-build a few more. GM would certainly take a loss on each car, but in terms of free-PR, mind-share, and green-credits, each car would be worth its weight in gold.”
————————————————————————————–
Although the 2009 hand-built Volts will have the final hardware, I don’t think they’ll have the final control code (a.k.a. firmware). Selling Volts with a lot of bugs in the embedded code won’t be good PR. Let’s give GM time to get it right.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Notice I sayed for sale not fleet. Dave G this is were the Saturn Vue Two Mode Plug in comes’s into play. Gm would know how it works out here in the real world with real people.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
#79 Dave G
You had me until you said “In fact, I think it’s patriotic”, referring to purchasing a Prius.
While I agree with your point about keeping oil money out of the hands of terrorists and governments that are hostile towards the United States, let’s not forget the money still flows out of this country.
There were reports a number years ago that every $1.00 that stays in this country is recirculated and benefits the economy 7-fold. If that is still true today, I would much rather see the money stay in the U.S than seeing it sent abroad.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
#48 Glenn, I haven’t owned cars as long as you but I too have never owned a GM product and never considered it until getting hooked on the volt. I was at the grocery store the other day and saw an oldsmobile something next to a 199? chevy something full size car. They both looked like hell and answered in half a second why I never considered owning them before.
I look at GM’s newer lineup and see the new Malibu, new Vue, Pontiac solstice, and the CTX and I’m excited about where GM is going. They are all very beautiful cars and GM has gotten up to speed with their reliability. Without the Volt though I would have never cared enough to consider these new GM vehicles. I personally won’t be buying a new car until I can plug it in and run it on just electric for at least 30 miles (enough for me each day).
I’d love to buy an American car, and it looks to me like the stars are aligning with GM quality up to toyota standards (close to it), GM styling better than the Europeans (IMHO), and the EV tech of the VOLT. I never considered myself “A CAR GUY” but for some reason I keep coming back to this site like its my job and I’m hoping in 2010 or 2011 to be buying my first GM product and fueling it with Domestic Energy
August 28th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Lutz responds to Toyota press release:
“GM’s top product executive says race with Toyota to make rechargeable hybrid is meaningless”
JOLIET, Ill. (AP) — General Motors’ top product executive says the race between GM and Toyota to produce a rechargeable car is meaningless because the companies’ vehicles are so different.
GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz says Toyota’s plug-in hybrid has a much shorter electric range than the Chevrolet Volt and must use a gasoline engine to go any farther.
Toyota’s president pledged on Thursday to bring his company’s plug-in hybrid to market in 2009, while the Volt is due in showrooms in late 2010.
But Lutz says he expects Toyota’s plug-in will be debut in controlled fleets and not in large numbers. He says GM will have production versions of the Volt working in a large test fleet in late 2009.
Lutz was speaking at an event in Illinois where GM showed reporters its 2009 model lineup.
Source:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080828/gm_toyota_hybrids.html?.v=1
August 28th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
#22 et. al.
I am with you guys. I have been a loyal US only car buyer for years. The Japanese industry is smug and the Govt helps subsidize these guys. They would like nothing better than to drive GM or Ford out of business just like they did with the US electronics manufacturers. As an engineer, I appreciate Honda and Toyota designs but I won’t even let the wife visit their showrooms. This is a battle in my mind and I won’t help the other side. My two cars are GM’s and my next one will be a GM. If the Volt is not available for me, I am thinking Cruze.
Also,
GM will have the plug-in Vue ready before the Volt (late 09 probably) and the Two-Mode hybrid is better technology than the Prius. GM has not been caught flat footed. They are leading in many areas.
Go GM.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Dave G said…
“Although the 2009 hand-built Volts will have the final hardware, I don’t think they’ll have the final control code (a.k.a. firmware). Selling Volts with a lot of bugs in the embedded code won’t be good PR. Let’s give GM time to get it right.”
I respectfully disagree. Firmware can be easily updated, and this could even be done via Onstar. Millions of computers, cell phones, and music players are updated this way each year, but they use the internet (not onstar) for delivery. Onstar could also be used to monitor vehicle diagnostics and usage patterns.
Would the first Volts be perfect? Probably not, but I’m sure early adopters would be more than willing to cut GM some slack in that regard. Just for fun, let’s take an informal pole…
Would anyone here be willing to lease (if available say six months from now) a pre-production prototype Volt for say $500/month?
I think I might. Not because it would make economic sense for me, but because it would be very fun and cool.
The only downside I see is it might allow GM’s competition to get their hands on these prototypes and attempt to reverse engineer them. On the other hand, Onstar would allow GM to know if any prototype Volts are being driven to the Toyota Tech Center.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
#70 Statik
I suspect I share your sensibilities about trade. I’d only make two points:
1. The US tax code provides incentives for moving jobs overseas (that’s not reasonable).
2. While the EU, UK, Canada, etc. play by more or less the same rule as the US, Asian countries game the system (not reasonable to treat the groups the same).
August 28th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
#38 Don C:
I hear you, but we have to start somewhere, and cars are huge purchases for most of us, with huge symbolism as well.
I don’t go to Walmart, but it’s really tough (impossible) to even find many consumer items which are manufactured in the US at all. If there is a silver lining in the clouds of oil prices, it may be that the pendulum swings back the other way, at least a bit.
As one who has observed first hand the “Diesel Death Zone” of the local ports, I can tell you that the whole “goods movement” industry is heavily subsidized by the public through the “externalized costs” of massive health impacts (including thousands of premature deaths), gridlocked traffic, and destruction of the quality of life in communities surrounding the “goods movement corridors”. If all of these billions of dollars of “externalized costs” were “internalized” into the price of imported products at Walmart, Tarket, K-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, et al, the model would shift even further
#45 Estero:
You are right. GM did license the Wankel technology back in the 60’s, at about the same time as Mazda. It had a lot of promise, as the horsepower to weight ration looked like it would be so much better. GM finally gave up on it after struggling with the problems described above. The rotor tip seals were a huge problem, exacerbating the oil consumption and emissions issues mentioned. Mazda just refused to give up.
#48 Glenn:
Point taken. GM does not make a car right now that I would buy. We just keep nursing the old family Chevy along, and hope for a better future. My wife is really cool about driving a 13 year old car.
#62 Freemon Sandlewould:
I will.
BTW, the thugs are wearing suits and sitting in the executive suite, IMHO.
#70 Statik:
As you know, I have agreed with you on about 95% of these issues. This is one of the 5%
August 28th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
This is a continuation of my #84 posting.
Let’s also NOT forget the laws in Japan that are grossly unfavorable to the U.S. exporting products to Japan. Electronics, automobiles and food items are some that immediately come to mind.
Japan wants to manufacture cars in this country and to export other goods to the U.S.. For this to continue and be fair to both sides of trading, Japan needs to change some of their laws. Until this occurs, it is difficult for me to purchase Japanese products when I have a choice. Unfortunately, my choices are getting fewer with every passing year.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
http://news.inventhelp.com/Articles/Automotive/Inventions/gm-volt-12505.aspx
Take Care
Arch
August 28th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
#71 Tag
You don’t have to turn over all the cars to make most of the gas miles go away. If a household has two cars, they are not driven 50-50. One person has further to go. One gets used more for errands. And so on. My prediction, based on how few SUVs are parked at the grocery store as compared to six months ago, that when a household gets an EV that vehicle will end up driving 60%-90% of the miles. IOW if you turn over half the cars you can turn over 75% of the miles.
The price of gas also matters. The higher it goes the faster the transition will be.
I hope I’m right too!
On the gas issue: Gas will be with us for quite a while. There are a lot of applications that there is no good substitute for. It’s just that riding a couple of people around isn’t one of them. And we do produce oil. But I certainly agree that alternative fuels, be they bio or natural gas, can help a great deal.
August 28th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I’m one of those people that GM is trying to court with the \Volt. I’ve never bought a GM car (or any other American car for that matter). Which is a shame. I certainly would have considered one if they had ever made anything even closely resembling what I have been looking for. But they will not get a free pass from me for ignoring the cars in my segments.
They know what I’m looking for. They know the cars that I and thousands of others like me have bought instead of theirs. They have up until this point simply chosen to not lead in these market areas of cars and focused instead on trucks where they could make higher margins. Too bad for them, and especially too bad for all of us.
No free pass.
That being said, I think the Volt is clearly technically superior to anything else any other car manufacturer has planned for release or is even tinkering with in the 2010 timeframe.
It’s about freaking time.
Mazda is just fiddling around. They’re not going to go to production with anything \Voltlike anytime soon. Toyota already made their “technological leap” with the Prius drivetrain and they’re going to push and squeeze and try to extend it as far as they can. And they’ll be OK with it for awhile…
But GM’s e-flex is clearly the best technological solution to how to motivate a car (and hopefully, sales
GM’s clearly made a decision to stop dragging their technological feet (which I feel like they’ve been doing since the 70’s) and start crushing their competition like paper cups.
Toyota’s HSD drivetrain will “run out of gas” when the 300hp eflexes arrive. And I’m betting they will as soon as GM gets comfortable with the technology and want’s to make more differentiated products.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
# 86 Statik
I appreciate all of your posts… I even clicked the link to find out more… of course you had already copied the whole article.
BUT, “General Motors’ top product executive says the race between GM and Toyota to produce a rechargeable car is meaningless because the companies’ vehicles are so different.” - this is absolutely true, just giving the prius a plug and larger battery does not make it as inovative as the VOLT. The reason they’re so different is that the VOLT uses electric motors to drive the vehicle with an ICE at optimal rpm. The prius still uses an ICE directly to move the vehicle.
~Bob
August 28th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
#89 Donc
“#70 Statik
I suspect I share your sensibilities about trade. I’d only make two points:
1. The US tax code provides incentives for moving jobs overseas (that’s not reasonable).
2. While the EU, UK, Canada, etc. play by more or less the same rule as the US, Asian countries game the system (not reasonable to treat the groups the same).
——————
I agree with you. Many things should change, as I believe in fair 2-way equitably trade agreements.
Relatively speaking the EV portion of that trade is at absolute zero at the moment…and even if we were importing a few hundred thousand of them, it would be just a small blimp. Cost of unfair trade vs. sweeping environmental change/freedom from oil, I think is a easy call in this particular situation.
As with most international issues, leverage is usually the instigator of change. If we want to make a impact on equitable trade, I think we both can agree boycott of foreign made EVs if probably not the place to start.
I’m more than willing to make a stand to enact free market conditions. But I would direct action of boycott to things of more consequence, like not buying a PS4, hehe.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
#95 Bob
“# 86 Statik
I appreciate all of your posts… I even clicked the link to find out more… of course you had already copied the whole article.
BUT, “General Motors’ top product executive says the race between GM and Toyota to produce a rechargeable car is meaningless because the companies’ vehicles are so different.” - this is absolutely true, just giving the prius a plug and larger battery does not make it as inovative as the VOLT. The reason they’re so different is that the VOLT uses electric motors to drive the vehicle with an ICE at optimal rpm. The prius still uses an ICE directly to move the vehicle.
~Bob”
———-
What is the ‘BUT’ bob? Hehe.
I only copy and pasted the article as FYI (and gave the source, I like ‘links’/’sources’), I didn’t comment on it at all.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
#97 Statik
Thanks for the FYI ( I thought there might be more info on the site you posted)!
You are right again, there was no ‘BUT’…
I think my thought was something along the lines of ‘BUT a plug-in prius is not like the VOLT’… which is exactly what Lutz says, but is not what some people are saying above.
Sorry for confusion and thanks for the information!
~Bob
August 28th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
OK, I’m also addicted and I want GM to hit that home run. (Statik, insert appropriate hockey analogy. You’re not a Leaf’s fan, are you? Never mind.)
But take a good look at the design of Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive. Take away the power splitter (ingenious device!), make the electric motor a bit bigger, add Lithium ion batteries, make some software changes, and you have a Volt. Pretty trivial to get there. (And why take away the power splitter if software can keep the gas engine off until it’s needed? The power splitter can be argued to be a positive thing. You can continue to run the car if your electric motor develops a catastrophic short circuit!)
If the battery technology is OK, as GM says it is, then Toyota has it too. It’s not a stretch to have a Toyota plug-in EREV much earlier than the Volt, and I bet it will happen. Who says you have to start with 40 miles? 40 is a good number, but it’s not gospel. I’d rather get 15, proven technology … and for a lot less money.
Sorry, but GM has a problem here. They’ve backed themselves into a corner, and they have to hit the home run. Toyota can just keep knocking out singles.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
#88 Paul-R:
Count me in. I’ll do it today.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I like the idea of using a rotary engine. Personally, I think an engine along the lines of the RadMax engine would make good fit. This engine, and others like it, have a higher specific power than the standard gas engine.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
#43 GXT
“…the main purpose of the Volt (as far as I can see) is as a prius-envy-inspired PR exercise”
The GM PR department rocks!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Steve said…
“But take a good look at the design of Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive. Take away the power splitter (ingenious device!), make the electric motor a bit bigger, add Lithium ion batteries, make some software changes, and you have a Volt. Pretty trivial to get there. … If the battery technology is OK, as GM says it is, then Toyota has it too.”
I respectfully disagree. The changes you are describing will take years of research, design, and testing. Not trivial at all. And the bigger motor and battery will be more expensive than today’s Prius with its tiny motor and battery. The Prius has been in production ten years, so if this was really so trivial, don’t you think they would have done it by now?
Also, I don’t think Toyota has complete freedom when it comes to battery suppliers. Ive read they’re pretty much in bed with Toshiba and need to use what they can provide. This may be a case where Japanese allegiance and protectionism (usually an advantage for Toyota) may actually be a hindrance.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
#99 Steve
“OK, I’m also addicted and I want GM to hit that home run. (Statik, insert appropriate hockey analogy. You’re not a Leaf’s fan, are you? Never mind.)”
Leaf’s fan? No. I do go to several games a year, it’s a fun outing…but I’m not into self-torture.
Hockey has kind of lost something for me over the past few years, scoring is down, league parity and all that. I miss the ‘run and gun’ hockey of the 80s and 90s….stupid New Jersey Devils and their trap.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
#88 Paul-R: Would anyone here be willing to lease (if available say six months from now) a pre-production prototype Volt for say $500/month?
Count me in too. I was actually thinking about this on my way to town today. (Los Alamos, NM is a “split town,” two halves about ten miles and 800 foot elevation change apart. I live at the lower elevation.) We have the country’s highest per capita level of PhDs and I’m beginning to think, the highest per capita ownership of Toyota Prius’s. I think I would be a REALLY good test case for GM.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
#103, Paul R, says, “I respectfully disagree. The changes you are describing will take years of research, design, and testing. Not trivial at all. And the bigger motor and battery will be more expensive than today’s Prius with its tiny motor and battery.”
The Prius is getting a bigger electric motor and battery for 2009, anyway. The software already handles charge maintenance modes. Remove the transmission and PSD and there’s not much else to do; the result is simpler than the current vehicle.
“The Prius has been in production ten years, so if this was really so trivial, don’t you think they would have done it by now?”
Not if they didn’t think it was worth doing. In fact, we see from other notes that Toyota’s got other prototypes of other arrangements on the road (one of the other posts referenced a vehicle called “e-com”).
The fact is, the Prius is good enough to sell out at the current production volume at pretty close to MSRP (and even at a markup when gas hits $4/gallon). Toyota can develop their follow-on vehicles at a reasonable pace and make the best economic decision available.
It’s not like Prius sales (180K units/year) are going to zero when the Volt (10K/year) becomes available in 2011. Toyota has plenty of time to chart their course.
Also, when the Volt battery is depleted, the Volt is carrying around what is essentially a 375lb paperweight and they must size the car to accomodate it. Large engine AND large battery is a lot of upward pressure on the size and weight of the Volt. The Prius approach leads to a remarkably compact vehicle, considering the amount of interior room.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
13 MetrologyFirst:
I may have had eel. It’s hard to know exactly what you’re eating in Japan!
August 28th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
21 Tagamet:
That’s Statik’s job of spreading doom and gloom that you’re taking!
August 28th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
103-Paul-R
“I respectfully disagree. The changes you are describing will take years of research, design, and testing. Not trivial at all. And the bigger motor and battery will be more expensive than today’s Prius with its tiny motor and battery. The Prius has been in production ten years, so if this was really so trivial, don’t you think they would have done it by now?”
Yah, OK, “trivial” is the wrong word. But I do not think the engineering challenge is that big in any case, given where they are with HSD. I’ll bet Toyata is already well advanced. They haven’t been sleeping since the Volt was announced, and they have the cash to spend.
And Toyota hasn’t done it yet because it is only recently that the battery technology seems to be making the whole idea practical.
My point about the cost is that if you phase it in (start at, say, 15 miles AER), then the battery costs come way down. Lots of people will like the lower price and (seemingly!) evolutionary (rather than revolutionary) approach.
So, it seems to me that Toyota has far more options to play than GM.
104-Statik
C’mon. Ya gotta love Sid and Ovechkin!
August 28th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
I don’t think that EREVs or any electric vehicles will make sense until batteries with several thousand recharge cycles come to be the norm. With the 500-1000 cycles you get 40K miles before you have to replace the expen$ive battery. With 5000-10000 cycles you get 200K miles, which is enough for me.
To get me to take a PFEV the battery would have to carry a 150K/10 year warranty, and I would really prefer 12 years.
A123 and LG Chem appear to have the tickets on this. Toyota has no Li experience.
-dk
August 28th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Statik #96:
“… it would be just a small blimp”
When did we start going on about blimps? Is Goodyear going to make an E-REV blimp now too????
HAHAHAHAHA!
August 28th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Re: 41 John1701a, 99 Steve, 103 Paul-R……
————————————————————————————
>> John1701a quotes, “I’m still hesitant about a plug-in Prius, as it was specifically made to NOT need a plug.” He then asks, “Then how do you explain the (Prius’) EV button and the ability to drive 100 km/h (62.1 MPH) with the engine motionless?” You’re right, John!
My in-depth study of the Saturn Vue 2-Mode Plug-in leads me to the following generalizations:
1) The physics of electric propulsion efficiency does NOT inherently prevent the Prius or the Vue 2-Mode architecture from functioning very effectively as high-mileage, EV-only vehicles at highway speeds!
2) However, the electric motor sizing must be adequate to sustain highway speeds and both the gas engine & the electric motor(s) must be able to effectively propel the car independently of each other
3) Obviously, battery design & sizing has to be much like that of the Volt’s to assure long life, good acceleration, etc., and the many processor control algorithms must be designed to allow EV-only operation
4) Bottom Line: If the above criteria can be satisfied, the efficiency penalty of a full hybrid adapted to optional EV-only operation with plug-in battery recharging is fairly modest —perhaps only 25% or even less in terms of either EV-only range or equivalent mpg in EV mode!
I’m certain GM is aware of this and that it’s why they’re adapting the Saturn Vue 2-Mode hybrid for plug-in operation. Plus, the plug-in Vue, like other hybrids, are able to use both the piston engine and the electric drive simultaneously to obtain added pulling power. (Clearly, GM isn’t about to put ALL of its eggs in the E-REV basket!)
August 28th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
noel park # 11
“I firmly believe that every one of them is another nail in our coffin.”
*** *** ***
I’ve heard many analysts say “who cares who makes them, as long as we have inexpensive cars to drive”. If that’s the case why didn’t the Japanese just import cars after WWII? At that time, anything built anywhere was better then their domestic brands. Not only should most American’s understand what the US automakers meant toward our manufacturing efforts in WWII, they should also understand what they could mean to our sovereignty. Think for a moment if all we had were imported or transplants w/no domestically owned manufacturers and none of them were interested in producing range extended electric vehicles. It just so happens that GM went this alone and that’s why this ball started rolling, but I can certainly see a scenario where this never happened.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Toyota will put a larger battery in the prius and a plug but the technology will be the same meaning that gasoline will still be used throughout your trip from start to stop. I own a prius and I know how the plug in aftermarket versions work. It’s better than my car but it will not let me achieve my goal of being gasoline independent. I can see toyota trying to build a full EV and missing the EREV train due to being stuborn. I also would not buy an EV with a 200 mile range because I sometimes have to drive over 400 miles all at once.
The Mazda rotary was inefficient and unreliable when connected to a transmission and will still be inefficient and unreliable when connected to a generator. In the end Mazda should scrap the rotary and just put an efficient 4 cylinder on the car for the
generator.
I love how we have been part of the development of the volt and how GM has asked us for suggestions. No other car company has done this for their new electric vehicle projects and I think this will aid the volt in being very successful.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Gary@108 said:
21 Tagamet:
That’s Statik’s job of spreading doom and gloom that you’re taking!
Uncontested. Sorry, I’d never presume to even attempt approximating Statik’s skills (break into a chorus of “The Sun’ll Come Out, to—morrow…”).
I’ll try harder to be more optimistic. I’m pretty sure it was just a temporary “reality seizure”. But I’ll check my meds to be sure…
Be well,
Tag
August 28th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
#66 DonC
Great point Don. If the goal is to reduce consumption, moving from a 15 mpg truck to a 20 mpg truck, is going to do more then from a Prius to EREV.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:44 am
#70 Statik said
“I’ve said it before, the first EV that can cart my family around (3) and be serviced locally gets my business. I’ll buy into the ‘Buy Local’ for EVs, like I do for my food/clothes, etc, once the reality is that they are actually being made and I can go down to my dealership and buy one.”
Yes, me too. I hope that is a Volt, but it does not have to be.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:35 pm
This may well be an instance where the Wankel advantages of small size and light weight outweight the disadvantages of higher fuel consumption, particularly if the Wankel “range extender” is not often used and high performance is desired. Now for some comments.
“I wonder if Mazda is licensing the compound rotary engine from Moller International”
No. The first working Wankel engine was made in 1957 by Felix Wankel at NSU Motorenwerke AG, and they licensed it out to other companies. The original patents have expired, so it is no longer necessary to license it from anyone. Moreover, Mazda has been developing and using Wankel engines since 1967, long before Moller even considered them for his flying car.
“Toyota got caught with their pants down with the Volt hype, even moreso since it’s a car and no longer a prototype.”
Toyota already has demonstrated fully functional prototype plug-in Priuses, with more powerful motor/generators and a different ratio in the planetery gearset to achieve a 60 mph EV only speed. It is somewhat comparable to the other GM plug-in project, the Saturn Vue dual mode plug-in hybrid. Compared to the Volt, the plug-in Prius has certain advantages and disadvantages. The Volt will likely have a larger battery and will use less gas for short freeway trips. The plug-in Prius will likely cost less, and due to a more efficient mechanical power link will use less gas on longer trips. Both will dramatically reduce fuel consumption.
“Toyota has no Li experience”
Toyota was the first to use a LiIon battery in a car, in a model called “Matiz”, sold in limited numbers in Japan. An early precursor to “stop-start” hybrids, it shut off the engine at stoplights, using the LiIon battery to run accessories and “auto-start” the engine when accelerator was pressed.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
In reading the thread here, it seems that the majority of the posts here have missed the point, with the notable exceptions of Estero, Dave G, CM and a few others above. I believe that this so far closest announced technology competitor to the GM Volt is all about the advantages of the Wankel engine as a range extender. Mazda’s most recent developments with its rotary engine have been in the areas of fuel economy and weight, as well as emissions, power and wide range torque (13B-MSP, 16X). This means that, while fuel efficiency may not be as good as an Atkinson cycle reciprocating ICE, running the rotary at constant rpm(s) minimizes a good deal of the comparable fuel inefficiency, and more to the point, the potential saving in dead weight while the vehicle is in AER is bound to make an impact, since the rotary engine size required for 65-70 HP to run the generator comparable to Volt-like performance should be in the order of 0.5L or less. Moreover, with Mazda’s announced intentions of utilizing lightweight technologies throughout its nextgen lineup, the size and weight of the engine, generator and motor needed to move the range-extended vehicle along could be even further reduced, along the line of the Aptera and Hypercar arguments.
Also, Mazda has been quick to exploit the inherent advantage of the rotary engine over conventional ICEs for using hydrogen for combustion, thus also positioning the rotary as an alternative to next generation fuel cell range extenders, should the hydrogen infrastructure ever come to pass.
Further reading:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/26/mazda-declares-it-will-consumption-by-30-by-2015/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine