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GM’s Cobasys Battery Recall Update

August 23rd, 2008 | Posted in: Battery

As you might remember, a while back it came out that GM had to recall 9000 NiMh hybrid batteries that were made by Cobasys due to leakage.

As the likely to be popular 2-Mode Saturn VUE is due to arrive this fall, I thought it best to check in with GM on that status of that recall and to find out if the 2-Mode VUE could be affected.

GM spokesman Tom Wilkins told me that the recall is “well along”, and the notification letters for the final phase went out on June 11th.

He reassures us that “the issue with this particular battery has been resolved” and that currently due to the changing auto market and high gas prices “demand is outrunning supply”.

Importantly, although Cobasys is also making those, Tom said “the 2-mode Vue uses a different battery” and “it is still on track.”

The 2-Mode VUE is expected to have improved fuel economy of 55% city and 45% highway over the current model.

[Note: If anyone is interested I just recently did a 1 hour interview/podcast with the guys over at EVCast.com, you can listen to it here.]

Posted by: Lyle

48 Responses to “GM’s Cobasys Battery Recall Update”

Starcast Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 am

Recalls happen no one likes them, but with new tech they will happen.

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Jim F. Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:16 am

Thanks for getting the update on Cobasys’ battery recall. I think I read that the Vue two-mode battery will be the same one as in the Tahoe. So far, there has not been a definitive announcement about when the Vue two-mode hybrid will be available. Best guess is early 2009.

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Gsned57 Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:33 am

Actually when I get my volt and drive it 149,999 miles then get a recall letter in the mail, that’ll be awesome. Then I get another 150,000 mile warranty on a new battery. As long as the original doesn’t blow up and cause me to look like the toxic avenger I’m good to go.

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GXT Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 am

This is an interesting lesson in capacity that GM, and anyone waiting for the Volt, should consider.

We’ve seen their sales numbers for the BAS hybrids and we know they are near non-existent. Therefore if this is true: “…currently due to the changing auto market and high gas prices “demand is outrunning supply”.”, and not more GM-spin, then GM has almost no capacity for NiMH batteries.

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 am

Excellent interview with CEO of Cobasys..

http://www.hybridcars.com/components/cobasys-ceo-defends-his-battery-company-0811.html

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Jeff M Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 am

Starcast Says: “Recalls happen no one likes them, but with new tech they will happen”

However the Cobasys NiMH chemistry is not “new tech” and is the one used in the EV1 and I think also the Rav4-EV and even the Prius under license from before GM sold Cobasys to the oil companies. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasys#Patent_dispute_with_Panasonic_EV_Energy

However this problem sounds like it’s nothing to do with this proven chemistry, but more to do with faulty cell and/or pack casings. These things happen to be only recalling 9,000 doesn’t sound like a major recall. Also while they may have recalled 9,000 of them, the number of units actually leaking is probably a tiny fraction of those being recalled.

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chevonly Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 am

Recalls only hurt American manufacturers. Check it out Toyota is the recall leader in the last ten years but what happens Americans love the cars and the defects that come with them and but of course its hands off when it comes to the automotive press to attack Toyota or Honda on recalls that would be racist. So oragato and ohio to all of you guys who drive the other guys cars I will stick with America while they still are in business and my bush bucks worthless as they are becoming still buy gas from his buds in Saudi Arabia who attacked the U.S. on 911 is this a great country or what.

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Lurtz Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 11:10 am

Off topic –

Lyle, would you please consider putting the comments on a optional link or something like other sites? I find it hard to read your articles because I have to wait for all the comments to load; and I usually don’t get to your posts until they’ve had 100 or so comments.

And the gravatars have made it that much worse.

Thanks!

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fred Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am

I apoligise for bringing this up but, can someone fix the cost map of the united states? Connecticut electricity has been $0.21 for the past year and is going up again thanks to the moral retards from exxon and our retarded legislaters being talked into deregulation. Thanks.

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Frank D Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:03 pm

Cobasys is a partnership between Ovonic Battery Co. and Chevron? Why would GM use them as a supplier? I don’t trust that.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Connecticut’s electricity was one a monopoly. It is a competitive market now.
You can buy it from any source that is allowed.
The problem is, all of those are very expensive.

Fred #9.
I agree with you. Deregulation in Connecticut was a huge mistake
and the idiots in Hartford should fix it. I did not ask for deregulation, but I am sure paying it. (along with you and everyone else)

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Randy C. Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm

What gets me is Cobasys is hemorrhaging money. Yet they could turn the situation by licensing the production of large format NiMH batteries. These batteries also work well in solar and wind power systems due to their high cycle life. I guess Cobasys is not in business to make a profit. Cobasys only exists as a tax right off and a scapegoat for the suppression of good EV batteries.

This story shows that Cobasys is also providing poor quality products. While Panasonic was making NiMH batteries they were working better, had better quality, and are lasting 10 years or more before failure.

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noel park Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:46 pm

#8 Lurtz:

I dunno, it’s not a problem for me. Well, the site did get a bit overloaded the other day, but usually it works just fine.

#9 fred:

exxon or Enron? Just wondering.

#11 Rashiid:

As a CA resident I can only say, welcome to my world.

And now!!!!!!!!!!!

One, two, three:

“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”

I have it written on a little bit of paper taped to the front of my monitor, LMAO.

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George K Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:52 pm

#5 Talks
“The Saturn Vue Green Line’s 36-volt nickel metal hydride battery, designed and made in America by Cobasys, is capable of delivering and receiving more than 14.5 kW of peak power. The hybrid system is used to provide both 12-volt accessory power and power to charge the battery pack.” from photo #5

Does that mean that the Saturn Vue doesn’t have a separate 12 volt? Early on, I heard that the Volt will have a 12 volt, as its too big a deal to step down the voltage.

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:59 pm

# 15 George K

I dont know.

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George K Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm

#7 chevonly

I had 2 recalls on my 2nd gen. high tech. Prius. I just brought the car in with the regular 5,000 mi. service interval.

I am fully expecting recalls on the Volt. But if the dealer handles it properly, (and I don’t have to be toed – that would frost me), I don’t think that it’s a big deal. jmho.

It’s, however, a big deal to the manufacturer, as they have to devote huge resources to the recall.

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Tall Pete Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:11 pm

#7 chevonly, you said :

Recalls only hurt American manufacturers. Check it out Toyota is the recall leader in the last ten years (…)

I don’t feel this is a fact. Even if it was, problem is (for GM and the big three) that the Toyota or Honda car is way more reliable than the average. It’s not only a perceived reliability, it’s been documented many times statistically.

Just yesterday, my car wouldn’t start so I had to call a cab. The taxi driver had a Toyota Camry, 495,000 Km (which is about 309,000 miles) and the guy told me that apart from a transmission he had to change, the rest gave him no problem whatsoever. Oh, and the engine is ‘just starting to take a little oil’.

I truly believe GM and the big three have to put their act together and put much more reliable cars on the road otherwise they are doomed. And I certainly hope that GM can fight this crisis and be on top again.

But the road will be long.

Pete

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Upon reviewing the specifications of 2 mode Saturn Vue, I found that it doesn’t has AFM (Active Fuel Management) -
AFM – Runs on 3 or 4 cylinder when it doesnt need much power and the use of hybrid with AFM would extend the time the automobile can be in AFM mode leading to more fuel savings. GM currently has this only in V8 hybrid engines but Honda has it in V6 engines also.

If GM still follows the OLD BAD WAYS of complacency, they are going to lose. If they would have used AFM, they could have saved more fuel for the customer.

For Ex: Mileage of the new 2008 Chevrolet Malibu V6 is one of the worst in its class.

Malibu V6 : 17/26 EPA
Accord V6: 19/29 EPA (Uses AFM)

2mpg worse in City and 3 mpg worse in Highway.

The above numbers speaks for itself, its just enough to remove the
Malibu V6 out of the shopping list of the customers when oil prices are on the rise. Comon GM.. come out of your old bad ways, its quite opposite to what I heard from Bob in the interview with Charlie Rose like ‘exceeding expectations etc…’

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Freemon Sandlewould Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Ouch….. these batteries ain’t cheap. That’s got to hurt.

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Larry R Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm

TALK If you are so worried about a few MPG’S why don’t buy the Malibu with the I-4 ?
It gets 32 MPG’S highway and the money stays in the USA.

No brainer dude.

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Joe Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Talks Says: @18

If you think the gas mileage is so bad with the Malibu, then check this out. The Malibu is the leader with this one. Maybe Toyota and Honda are the ones who are really complacent.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/chevrolet-malib.html

Sorry, I just noticed someone with the same response. We both must have been writing at the same time.

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Dave G Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:45 pm

#18 Talks,

In the past, people would spend more for a larger engine. Now I think people are starting to spend more for a transmission with more gears. Both approaches give you more acceleration. The larger engine also gives you better top speed (useless in the U.S.) and worse gas mileage. The better transmission gives you good acceleration with better mileage.

So for cars with transmissions (i.e. non E-Flex cars), its probably better for car manufacturers to concentrate on cranking out 6-speed automatic transmissions with 4-cylinder engines than to use 6-cylinder engines and then turn off cylinders you don’t need.

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Paul Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:04 pm

I SECOND THIS MOTION!!!

Off topic -

Lyle, would you please consider putting the comments on a optional link or something like other sites? I find it hard to read your articles because I have to wait for all the comments to load; and I usually don’t get to your posts until they’ve had 100 or so comments.

And the gravatars have made it that much worse.

Thanks!

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Shawn Marshall Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Electric deregulation was a hoax and it was resisted by the utility companies for years.But Wall Street and very large manufacturers kept pushing it to legislators who put pressure on the utilities. The utilities,(the greedy ones), finally said what the hell and jumped on the bandwagon.
And the little guy pays to clean up the mess via higher rates and employment reductions.
Beware of anything in which the government gets involved.

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Grizzly Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Hey, I think I know what the problem is with the Cobasys batts! If you look at the picture they’re using the same faulty fan I have on the back of my PC…LOL!

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Lurtz Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:08 pm

(Talk #18)

GM already had a “variable displacement” in the 1981 Cadillac El Dorado called the “8-6-4″ (for number of cylinders). However, it was unreliable.

So it’s technically untrue that GM is letting others lead when they paved the way for this 27 years ago. However, they declined to pursue that engineering, what with gas falling from the March 1981 high of $3.31/gal down to about $1.50/gal (inflation adjusted to 2007 dollars)

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm

#20 Larry R & #21 Joe:

Its not few Mpgs. 3mpg on Highway is a very big difference, its more than a difference between EPA of I4 Malibu and a Hybrid
and an I4 Accord and V6 Accord. So According to your comment, People shoudn’t buy Hybrids just because of few mpgs extra they provide ?
Then if that is the explanation GM has, then they shoudn’t have produced Hybrids. I don’t have issue with I4, but the people looking for both Performance + Mileage would definitely would go for a best fuel efficient V6.

“so worried about a few MPG’S “…. this is called complacency.

#22 Dave G

Even if you use six speed with I4, it can’t beat the agility provided by a V6 with six speed. Sometimes I4 with sixspeed won’t go well with each other.
See the below comment in the below link.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2009-chevrolet-malibu-5.htm

“The available 6-speed automatic is similarly smooth, but tends to get caught in the wrong gear for best response.”

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Kent Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:38 pm

I just read that Cobasys has not fulfilled their obligations to Mercedes for the hybrid ML 450 and that Mercedes is suing Cabasys over this. Supposedly, Mercedes hybrid program is in jeopardy due to non-delivery from Cobasys. I hope GM has more that one battery supplier for their EVs.

Source: San Jose Mercury News.

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Grizzly Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Rashiid # 11

“I agree with you. Deregulation in Connecticut was a huge mistake
and the idiots in Hartford should fix it. I did not ask for deregulation, but I am sure paying it.”

*** *** ***

Sorry about your rates, and I sure hope eventually it works out. If it’s any consolation, I remember all the griping about LD phone rates for years after the 1984 breakup of AT&T. Now, depending on how you play your cards, you can even call internationally for free.

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:55 pm

#26 Lurtz.

No one cares what GM did long time ago, it won’t help GM fetch more sales.

Whoever utilizes the best possible use of technology without putting
a hole in the consumers pocket will only Win, others would just survive or barely survive. This is one of the reasons I like VOLT.

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Lurtz Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:09 pm

GM’s Pontiac G8 uses variable displacement today. So… what were we arguing about?

[P.S. I just compared it to Audi’s S5. The S5’s engine is 2/3rds as big, gets worse fuel economy, and costs $20k more. Nice job GM/Pontiac!)

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:17 pm

#31 Lurtz

I agree.. but why not Variable displacement in a V6 ?

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David Duchovny Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Read how this actor has a real problem with the electric car he has been driving for four years.

I agree with him 100 percent. GM may have a solution to his “problem”.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/forecastearth/99/david-duchovny-is-a-reluctant-electric-car-driver.html

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Lurtz Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:32 pm

http://www.chevrolet.com/activemanagement/

Impala
3.9L V6 Engine

This 233-hp V6 has E85 capability. It features Active Fuel Management™ and advanced Variable Valve Timing (VVT) that uses an electronically controlled camshaft phaser to maximize horsepower and torque outputs. So you get 240 pound-foot of torque and an EPA estimated 18 city, 28 highway MPG (gasoline) and 13 city, 20 highway MPG (E85).

(”Active Fuel Management (formerly known as Displacement on Demand) is a trademarked name for the automobile variable displacement technology from General Motors. It allows a V6 or V8 engine to “turn off” half of the cylinders under light-load conditions to improve fuel economy. Estimated performance on EPA tests show a 5.5%-7.5% improvement in fuel economy.)

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Talks Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:41 pm

#33 Lurtz:

I think you are talking about AFM in an OHV engine which produces less power than a DOHC engine for the same displacement.

GM should have used the same AFM technology in a DOHC V6 which is more prevalent in GMs Vehicles now a days.
I just cant digest the EPA values of V6 malibu

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galileo Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:49 pm

Stop Global Warming: Buy American Made Cars – No Pollution from overseas Shipping !!

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Jim I Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:59 pm

I am confused as to why I should care about a recall of NiMh hybrid batteries for vehicles that are not even named.

OK – I googled “GM battery recall”. This is from December, 2007 and involves the Saturn Vue Green Line, Aura Green Line and Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid. They are all mild hybrids.

But I am still missing the relevance…..

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speedy Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 1:38 am

Cobasys has solved the problem with there batteries, and the battery suppler for the two mode hydrid saturn vue is cobasys /A123 systems and johson control-shaft, lithium-ion batteries. They sign a contract for the program in 2007.

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speedy Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 1:53 am

And!!! 123 systems and johson control-shaft are suppyling lithium-ion batteries for the Two mode hybrid system for the Saturn Vue and I think for BAS Plus system. Side note: Honda only has mild hybrid’s it doesn’t have a full hybrid system.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 4:56 am

Mild or not my Honda hybrid gets 60 MPG. Still this is low performance compared to what the VOLT will be. GM I long for my VOLT.
Take Care,
TED

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Statik Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 9:39 am

So…not much interest in Cobasys updates for the record, hehe.

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N Riley Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Let’s hope Cobasys gets it together. We need all the battery manufacturers we can get.

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solo Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 5:46 pm

#35

Concerning OHV (Overhead valve) engines vs DOHC (Double overhead cam, or Twin cam) engines. OHV engines are still widely used by GM for a lot of good reasons.

1. They generally produce better low end torque which makes them excellent pickup truck and heavy vehicle engines.

2. They are cheaper to build.

3. They are often as economcical as a twin cam engine.

4. They are far cheaper to maintain. most I4 twin cam and all v6 twin cam engines use rubber belts to drive the camshafts. These belts MUST be changed at regular intervals, usually between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. It costs about $350.00 to $700.00 bucks to do this. Because twin cam engines are ‘interference’ engines, if the belt brakes the cams stop but the crankshaft and pistons do not. The pistons will strike the open valves, destroying some of the pistons, valves, and often the cylinder head. Basically the repair costs will outweigh the value of the car. OHV engines have 1 timing chain to drive the single camshaft that often lasts the life of the engine. OHV engines are ‘freewheeling’ meaning if the timing chain fails there is enough clearance between the piston and valves to prevent damage.

Twin cam engines are the state of the automotive art but they are not the best choice for every vehicle.

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dagwood55 Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

#35, Solo,

Some DOHC engines use chains and some use belts. Most have gone back to chains. Toyota charged me $200 to replace the belt on my 2.0L I-4 engine two years ago, at 90K miles. That’s not a terribly outrageous expense. That’s less than a quarter of what Chevy wanted to replace the camshaft in my Iron Duke at 70K miles.

Not all twin cam engines are interference engines. I know some Hondas are, I know my two different kinds of Toyota engines are not.

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dagwood55 Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

#7, Chevonly, Toyota uses recalls to ensure the customer comes back for another Toyota. This plan works.

Look at GM and Dexcool… GM dragged its feet for 15 years before agreeing to a settlement (it was in the papers just a couple months ago). Most of the original owners have already moved on to… another GM? I don’t think so. GM lost a bunch of customers that it could have kept.

GM built crap gaskets into their cars for 10 years and never did anything about that problem to ensure customer satisfaction. Maybe some day they’ll settle but I know several people that suffered problems from that and won’t care about the settlement because they unloaded their GMs and now drive Toyotas and Hondas.

Do you think they’ll be back because GM’s new Malibu looks pretty?

Do you think they’ll trust GM to get the Volt right?

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dagwood55 Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Something does not add up…

The referenced June 6 initial article on GM-Volt about the recall says, 9K batteries, “one-third of the entire fleet.” That means GM would have had to build 27K hybrids to recall 9K batteries.

No way. Either GM hybrids do not sell at all or somebody made up some numbers. GM has been selling hybrid Auras since about last Fall. GM’s overall reported hybrid sales (the Auras, the Malibus and the big two-modes) come to a little over 1K per month, presently, with lesser amounts prior to the start of this year. That’s about 9K altogether. Where are the other 18K vehicles? Sitting on dealer lots? I don’t think so… that’s 3 or 4 per dealer.

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WopOnTour Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

dagwood
You are forgetting about 2 years production of BAS hybrid VUEs which are also part of the recall. Plus there are actually 6 individual NiMh batteries in each 42V pack. Pairs of 12V batteries are first connected in a parallel configuration (+ to + , – to – ) then 3 of hese blocks are connected together “in series” (+ to -, – to +) to create the 36V pack.
No conspiracy here…
LOL
WopOnTour

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harley Says:
February 11th, 2009 at 7:18 pm

Their cells short out . Their plastics get micro-cracking leading to coolant contamination.Their product is junk.Just so a few higher ups make some big $$$ then get out!!!

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GM’s Cobasys Battery Recall Update

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