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GM CEO’s Best Guess: Volt Will be Priced in “Mid to High 30’s”

August 19th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial

GMs CEO Rick Wagoner was interviewed by Charlie Rose, the entire hour-long interview can be seen in the video below. On tonight’s upcoming episode Rose will interview Bob Lutz and talk even more about the Volt.

Some key exchanges between Rose and Wagoner is below (it begins in the video just after 28 minutes):

How much does GM have riding on the Volt?
Its gotten bigger than life for us, its really important. The Volt has captured the imagination of people around the world of what the future can be.

How did it come about?
We had a run with electric vehicles before. The technology was a marvel at the time, but consumers were very uneasy about the fact that they could only get 50 to 100 miles of range. It taught us we had to come up with some options that gave us the advantage of battery power, but also provided a backup.

Will it be ready in 2010?
So far, Id say so good. In fact if anything, the tests we are doing suggest we are right on time for where we need to be. We’ve got our fingers crossed, but 2010 looks doable.

What will it sell for?
We initially hoped we could get it for a very good price, lets say below $30,000. Its going to be more expensive than that, the first copies.

35?40?
We haven’t finalized it, it wont be as high as 50 but it’ll be in the mid to high 30’s is my best guess.

Are you worried that price point might deflate sales?
Well sure, consumers have told us time and again the lower the price, the more they’ll buy. But I believe we will sell as many as we can produce at what I call a fair price.

Some of its going to depend on what the government decides to do on tax credits and incentives.

Why is there so much buzz about the Volt?
Its about GM boldly leading to the future.

[flash http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-1726040624355731423:123000:3238000&hl=en]

If you can’t see video go to this link .

Posted by: Lyle

154 Responses to “GM CEO’s Best Guess: Volt Will be Priced in “Mid to High 30’s””

Mark Bartosik Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

It would be interesting to have a graph from the wait list that shows a bar graph of number of people prepared to pay what. All academic really since the first year GM will sell all it can.

Only they hopefully won’t gouge the first year buyers, for buyers’ sake and because the public would then assume that the vehicle is over priced for a few years hurting sales.

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Marcus Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Enough with the guesses already.

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Talks Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

Its very difficult for me to assume that GM will bring down the price of VOLT after 1st version considering the bad financial position of the GM. If the cost is near 40000$, VOLT will be a huge failure and
a terrible mistake. I may even loose enthu to watch this site that I do every 5 min throughout the day. GM shd make sure that VOLT price wont exceed 30000$ after Federal rebates.

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nasaman Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

I saw last night’s interview of Rick Wagoner & tonight’s should be even more interesting —don’t miss it!!!

Lyle: Regarding today’s online chat with Bob Boniface, we need more of these such as with Andrew Farah! These allow us to get into the real SUBSTANCE of the Volt design. Example……

I asked Boniface for details on the Volt’s actuator-operated louvers (an existing GM technology) and his response was the “Grille panels are fixed on the Volt!” I’m EXTREMELY UPSET about this!!! What I’ve seen of the final design is gorgeous, but if there’s anything I hate, it’s FORM WITHOUT FUNCTION!!! YUK!!!

What a shame, because it means the “bean counter” mentality really has affected the Volt design, and in a major way! The lower grill is open, allowing the two HUGE “Chevy signature” grills to be nothing but FAKES! THIS IS TERRIBLE!!!

FIX THIS, GM!!!!!!!!!

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Stew Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

It would be even more interesting to graph Wagoner’s blink rate when he is listening vs answering a question.

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solo Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

I haven’t got an hour right now to watch the interview but it should be interesting. If they can sell this car at 35-40 large there will be a waiting list. Everybody, every left wing lear-jet liberal better buy one or lose what little credibility they have. Everybody willing to buy their used EV-1 at $24,000 better buy one. I know people are going to say 40,000 is too much and they can’t afford it. Well, I can’t justify that much for a car when I have a newer $17,000 car that gets 30 mpg every tankfull and I drive a company car to work on company gas. However, there are millions of people that make a good wage and drive 20, 30, 40 miles to work in Chicago, Atlanta, L.A., and scores of other American cities and this car will fill the bill and meet their budgets. I won’t buy one right away but I will buy one eventually because many cars in the future will be configured this way.

I hope they can produce them in large numbers to meet demand.

A side note, I noticed many conventional cars are now getting better fuel economy. You can buy a Cobolt rated at 36 mpg. You can get a Saturn Aura (2009) with the 4 cyl engine and the new 6 speed transmission. This car is now rated at 33 mpg. Given the new EPA rating standards, thas probably about 37 to 38 mpg using the pre-2008 rating standards, thats an AWESOME fuel economy rating for a 3300 pound mid size car.

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GXT Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

35?40?
“We haven’t finalized it, it wont be as high as 50 but it’ll be in the mid to high 30’s is my best guess.”

Heh… the interviewer didn’t even go near 50. Wagoner is so full of it.

Why is there so much buzz about the Volt?
Paid shills. Viral marketing. Mostly it is about a multi-decade dedication to incompetence and bad product that has sufficiently lowered the bar to the point where if we don’t pee on ourselves we have achieved a moon shot. The public has taken notice!

Now we are focusing our rapidly dwindling resources on a PR exercise that has surprisingly resulted in a spin off vehicle that we are calling the Volt. It will be a niche vehicle for the next 7 or so years as until that time it makes no economic sense for anyone (even us!). In the meantime our competitors will run circles around us with meaningful product while we are too distracted by the Volt (and we hope you will be too!) to offer a meaningful product.

But rest assured that this moon shot that we are talking about proves that we are not as pathetic as our current product offering would seem to prove. In fact we are best-ultimate-super-good!

GM- The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow – And This Time We Mean iI! ™

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BillR Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

I saw the interview last night, and I thought it was balanced and well done.

From the tone, E-Flex and the Volt play a major role in GM’s future.

Rick also emphasized that having great products is key. Cars like the CTS, Malibu, and Enclave are examples of where they want to go with all their products.

From my perspective, it appears that the Volt is getting a great deal of resources and attention, and some of the most talented people in GM are working on the project.

GM seems to realize that they need to provide an alternative energy source to petroleum, as well as find a solution to CO2, especially in Europe, as they have mandates to reduce CO2 emissions.

I will be watching Bob tonight tell more on the Volt. Note: I highly recommend you watch this show, if possible.

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Jeff M Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

Hard to believe anything out of GM when the CEO is still spreading misinformation and spin on their previous EV program…. Rick is quoted above as saying:

“The technology was a marvel at the time, but consumers were very uneasy about the fact that they could only get 50 to 100 miles of range. It taught us we had to come up with some options that gave us the advantage of battery power, but also provided a backup”

Now it’s back to “range” being the reason to cancel the program… when they even lie about the range… even the 1st generation EV1’s had more than 50 mile range with the lead acid batteries… the later gen with the NiMH got 75 to 150 miles per charge! For all those lucky enough to lease it, and all the thousands on the wait list, that range was more than sufficient… it can’t be compared to a conventional vehicle’s range because a BEV is plugged in every night so range was NOT an issue.

On top of that, GM in 1999 had a “range extended” EV1 prototype built w/a series design just like the Volt (the prototype used a turbine engine but they could have substituted any generator set for production like the Volt is doing), see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_series_hybrid … Volvo had their “range extended” ECC in 1992, and other auto makers were also designing “range extended” BEV’s around the same time as GM. It was the gutting of California’s ZEV mandate that ended GM (and all the automakers) BEV programs before they ever reached mass production.

In any case, go GM with the Volt, as well as all the automakers (major and minor)!!!!

For those in the Boston area, it looks like Charlie Rose air’s tonight (Tues) at 11pm no Ch. 2 (WGBH), and tomorrow (Wed) at noon and 6pm on Ch. 44 (WGBX).

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Maggots Q Face Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

40 miles per charge? … … maybe I’ll stick with tesla motors

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Lurtz Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Using Autos.Yahoo.com to look for cars at that price range ($35-$40k, sedan, 4-5 seats, 2WD):

2008 Saab 9-3 Sport Sedan Aero $35,215
2008 Cadillac CTS 3.6L SIDI $35,975
2008 Audi A4 3.2 with Multitronic $36,300
2008 Volkswagen Passat Sedan VR6 $36,050
2008 Chrysler 300 C $36,215
2008 Lexus IS 350 6-Speed Sequential $36,305
2009 Volvo S60 T5 $36,400
2008 Mercedes-Benz C-Class C350 Sport Sedan $36,900
2008 Buick Lucerne CXS $37,030
2009 Cadillac CTS 3.6L SIDI $37,080
2009 Hyundai Genesis 4.6L $37,250
2009 Lincoln MKS FWD $37,665
2008 BMW 3 Series Sedan 335i $39,300

I dunno about the Hyundai, but it seems like all of those are out of the Volt’s league, as the Volt has been described. Unless the Volt will be the environmentally-friendly luxury car of the future. (Well, that’s one way to differentiate from the Prius.)

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Hey everybody, solo is back and bringing politics into the discussion (see #6). It is about time we got back to partisan attacks.

#7 GXT
Dude, let your grudges go. They’ll eat you up. The market (i.e., not the government) is driving more and more auto manufacurers to announce plans for E-REVs and BEVs. This is not a fad.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Another quote from Rick RE Volt:
“I get emails from people every day ‘please put me on the list’ “.

Would that be our list?

An interesting interview, more so from about 30 minutes in.
Sneak peeks of Volt earlier on – nothing we haven’t seen.

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Anthony BC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Like I said, $39,950 !

GO GM, GO VOLT for 2010!

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mien green Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

#4 nasaman:
As inexpensive as those temperature dependent memory springs most likely are, sounds like GM is going for cheap at this point, maybe from all the keening around here.

Peoples’ car, indeed.

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Grant Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

I am STILL not worried. Sure, the first run will not be the ideal car. It can’t be, it’s the FIRST RUN. Everyone seems to want to have, delivered for free to their door, a car that runs on happy thoughts and the souls it sucks out of Priuses as it drives by. They also want it to be solid gold, and produce candy out of the cigarette lighter socket.

Come on, people, give the market TIME. This has been a tremendously accelerated timetable as-is, and please also remember, the Volt is not open-source software. If you want to see every step of a process, use Linux. This is a commercial application, and there are many issues to consider. We’ll see the final when it comes time. Options packages will be revealed in the same way. It will all pan out…

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Belloc Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

I think it is a huge mistake to label the range extender as a “backup”. From a marketing standpoint it should look like a integral component. Not a feature or some extra but a “can’t live without” component. From an engineering standpoint it is what differentiates the Volt from the other EVs being introduced and should be at the forefront of their marketing. Having an electric car is great but letting people know upfront that this car can do everything your current car does is of utmost importance for this to be a success.

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Jake Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

#11 Lurtz –

Thanks for compiling that list, it’s a good snapshot. I must say, I am actually encouraged by it. Those aren’t cheap cars, but they’re not unpopular either. I see most of those cars regularly. The key is – will people put the Volt’s state-of-the-art drivetrain and high-tech interior on the same level as the cushy or sporty perks that many of those cars offer? I am hoping the answer to that question is “yes.” The Volt could be appealing to the $35-$40k crowd with its innovative design, unique driving experience, green cred, and hopefully good looks. I’m a big VW fan, and heck…if I had enough money to consider buying a Passat I wouldn’t rule out the Volt as an alternative in the same price range.

Size could be an issue though. Some of those cars are bigger than others. If the Volt looks classy and substantial from the outside, it might be OK. If it looks tiny or “like a nerd’s shoe” then not so much.

All in all…I’m gonna take a wild guess that this latest price guestimate tells us next to nothing. I don’t want to hear any whining when it “changes” for the millionth time.

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JEC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Rick says: “Some of its going to depend on what the government decides to do on tax credits and incentives.”

So, the question that was NOT asked, is the mid to upper 30’s guesstimate, before or after the anticipated Govt incentives?

So, if GM gets the $10,000 incentive, then the price is 35-40k, other wise 45-50k (he said it would not be more than $50k, and this fits perfectly with numbers he is using).

So my guess is GM is giving the mid to upper $30’s guestimate, assuming $10,000 incentive. Otherwise get ready to shell out $49,999!

Lots of guessing going on, but what else can you do, when they give vague or incomplete answers?

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Nelson Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

The drop in North American Sales is not entirely due to economic reasons. I ask random people I meet if they were given $25,000 for the purchase of a car within three years when and what would they buy? 85% of the about 200 people said they would buy in three years. When ask why they would wait three years, most said they are aware the automotive industry will begin selling higher fuel efficient cars in that time frame. Most of those same people are currently leasing because they feel the resale value of their current vehicle will be nonexistent. I think the reason North American Sales is low is because North Americans are more in touch with the direction the automotive industry is going.
Plug-In’s, E-Flex & Fuel Cell.

North Americans don’t want to buy old technology when they know new technology is right around the corner. I myself am waiting for the Volt while driving my 2004 GM vehicle.

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Jimmy Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

#11 Lurtz:

Hopefully you have figured out by now that $10,000 of the cost of the Volt is for the battery …thus making it comparable to a $25,000 or $30,000 car. I figure I will save about $2,000 a year in fuel a year …taking into account the cost of electricity. This will give me a 5 year payback and achieve all of the other benefits of not using petro. Come on …use your head.

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Schmeltz Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

Lurtz said:

“I dunno about the Hyundai, but it seems like all of those are out of the Volt’s league, as the Volt has been described. Unless the Volt will be the environmentally-friendly luxury car of the future. (Well, that’s one way to differentiate from the Prius.)”

True that all of the cars you mentioned were in the luxury class. But here’s a question: What is the fuel economy of every single one of those cars? I don’t know if even one of them gets above 40 mpg highway. Now compare that to a car that is unquestionably a stand-out due to its technology, plus gives 150 mpg efficiency depending on how you figure it. I see your point with that list but, the list is an apples to oranges comparison in my eyes.

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Kaido Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Folks, please do consider this silly little fenomenon called INFLATION.

If the inflation is steadily 5% from 2008-2010 then 30000 2008 (end of year) will be the same as 33000 in 2010 January already because of inflation.

Price increase will be on TOP of that if their prognoses are not inflation adjusted!

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Jimmy Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

#7 GXT:

I bet $10 your name is on the waiting list. If you are not interested in the Volt …why do you post here everyday. Do you have nothing else to do?

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Kyle Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

# 20 Nelson,

That’s an excellent point. I thought sales of automobiles were going down just because of the bad economy. I guess the public isn’t as ignorant and uneducated as I previously thought.

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JEC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

#20 Nelson

“I ask random people I meet if they were given $25,000 for the purchase of a car within three years when and what would they buy?”

Really? Do you just stop people in the street and ask people this? Hmmm, seems a little odd, but whatever floats your boat

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Kaido Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

Oh and for those of you who don’t know – the Prius costs about 40000$ in Europe TODAY. Yes, a horror-story .. I know.
Volt would fit right in with a 40000 price tag even today.

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Jimmy Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

#22 Schmeltz:

Good post!

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JEC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

27 Kaido

Sorry, but the price in Europe was estimated to be much higher. I forget the exact dollar increase, but it was a lot more. I am thinking $50 to 60k in American dollars, but I am not sure.

I am sure someone else who has a better more, or more time could give you a better number.

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Jimmy Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

I have read several places that the plug in Prius to be introduced in 2010 / 2011 will probably cost around $35,000 a year due to the lithium battery. Which would you rather have …the plug in Volt or plug in Prius.

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Bryce Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

As mentioned above, under 30k after government rebates would be a great, and fairly reasonable goal. : ) I would get a Volt if that were the case, which is altogether possible. : )

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statik Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

#23 Kaido

“If the inflation is steadily 5% from 2008-2010…”

Nothing to add to the discussion about the Volt…but my gut, tells me you will be EXTREMELY lucky, (like powerball lucky) to be as low as 5% in 2009,/2010 in the US.

The fed is holding the rates unbelievably low to try and avoid catastrophe in the credit/housing business…but it does so at the peril of inflation.

Wholesale inflation is off the chart right now (just released today) and is filtering through the system. Feel the incoming pain in this quote:

“The Labor Department reported Tuesday that wholesale prices shot up 1.2 percent in July…The increase was more than twice the 0.5 percent gain that economists expected and left prices rising over the past 12 months by 9.8 percent. That marked the biggest annual increase since the 12 months ending in June 1981, a period when the Federal Reserve was driving interest rates to the highest levels since the Civil War in an effort to combat a decade-long bout of inflation.”

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080819/economy.html

Former IMF chief economist Kenneth Rogoff said on Tuesday, the U.S. Federal Reserve was wrong to cut interest rates as “dramatically” as it did. “Cutting interest rates is going to lead to a lot of inflation in the next few years in the United States.”

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/19/briefing-outlook-lehman-markets-equity-cx_ss_0819markets44.html?partner=yahootix

/buckle up
//end of market minute

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JEC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

32 Statik

One of the large contributors to the high inflation numbers is the price of oil. This has impacted nearly every manufacturer of nearly every product. No has been immune to this gas disease.

The one sliver of hope is that oil will continue its downward spiral. This should help relieve some of the inflation numbers in the coming year. Of course because of the huge mass of the economy, it will likely take many months to a year, for this to show up in the economic numbers.

I am no expert on economies, but this oil mess has caused so much market chaos, and its impact is so broad, that this must be passed on to the consumer, and inflation would be inevitable.

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JonP Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

If the Volt meets expectations………

Is priced around 36-38K

Gets a fed tax rebate of 6-7K making it between 30-32K.

It will be the most successful car ever developed.

GO GM!! don’t F this one up!

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JEC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

34 JonP

If you listen carefully to Wagoner, he is vague on that mid to uppper 30k. He never says if this is before or after the anticipated govt incentives.

My pessimistic/realistic view says that they are already factoring in the govt incentives into the optimistic mid to upper $30k.

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left wing lear-jet liberal Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

#6

—
Everybody, every left wing lear-jet liberal better buy one or lose what little credibility they have
—

I’ll buy a car I can’t afford because a rightwing chickenhawk thinks I lack credibility after everyone of them has served in Iraq

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Michael Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

I think the operative modifier was “lear-jet.” If you can regularly afford lear-jet transportation, you can afford a Volt.

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CDAVIS Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

______________________________________________________

Mr. Wagoner,
That was an excellent interview. Good job.

The interview made me more bullish on GM’s future prospects of being the “got it” auto maker to follow. Thank you for solidly supporting the GM-VOLT project. Your investment of your leadership and reputation in the VOLT is courageous and I believe will be well rewarded. There are many many Americans, such as me, solidly behind the GM-VOLT project.
______________________________________________________

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Mark Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

I agree with #2, Marcus. Enough with the ‘guessing’ already. I really don’t want to see ‘guesses’. I’d rather wait for a ‘confirmed, showroom sticker price’

So far, we’ve heard guessing from anywhere between 30K and 50K. This is quite a range.

At 50K, there will be far less people interested, even if it is just an estimate. At 30K, there will be a far greater amount of people that are interested and can afford it.

There’s also the danger of less people wanting to be on the waiting list if the ‘guessing’ price goes too high, and also the danger of people wanting to be removed. We want to see that number go really high.

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Mark Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

You might want to take a peak at what BYD revealed at the August auto show in China: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/byd-china-electric-cars-plug-in-hybrids-israel-2009.php

If the specs revealed here are accurate they have a very good battery.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

#37 Michael
WADR, “lear-jet” was not the objectionable part. But, I don’t really want to discuss that tangent too much. It won’t be productive. How about that Volt, huh?

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Michael Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I know what was objectionable. I was just trying to keep it light. I’d rather not have politics here at all if we could avoid it. Politics almost aside, the real message is: every body 1) practice what you preach, and 2) put your money where your mouth is.

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DonC Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

#4 nasaman

I was surprised to see your question. The grill is faux. If it wasn’t the Cd would doubtless jump appreciably. The (lack of) a grill has more to do with aero design than it does with bean counting.

The fact you think the design is “gorgeous” indicates that they did the right thing. Personally I think grills on BEV’s are goofy but obviously opinions on this point can differ.

Here is what Bonifice has said about the grill:

“It’s nearly completely closed. We take in a little bit of air along the side of the lower portion of the grill but its essentially closed. All of the air comes in at the bottom of the fascia, at the bottom of the bumper because the cooling requirements are such that we were able to send the air around the car to the motor compartment for cooling.”

You can hear him talk about the reason they could decrease drag by dispensing with the grill in this YouTube video at about 4:20.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/14/exclusive-interview-with-chevy-volt-chief-designer-about-the-production-car/

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nasaman Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Before I go watch Charlie Rose interview Bob Lutz in a few minutes I want to repeat my rant in post #4 that the Volt design will employ FAKE grilles —i.e., the Chevy trademark 2-grille design will be nothing more than non-functioning “picture frames” that are stuck onto the front-end sheet metal in stamped-in recesses made to fit the fake grills!!! In other words, GM is NOT going to use their existing actuated-louver technology to admit cooling air at low speeds, and reduce the air admitted at higher speeds to improve the aerodynamics. Instead, the huge front grills will have NO function whatsoever and the low-mounted (blacked-out) grill will be the only way cooling air is admitted to the under-hood engine, motor, generator, control electronics, etc.

Look closely at this high-resolution photo: http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/08/x08ch_vt001.jpg

Can you imagine that the 2 elaborate-looking upper grilles in this photo will be FAKES?!? In other words, completely smooth sheet metal would have exactly the same function as these “fixed (fake) grille panels”. For me, this design is a show stopper …..I wouldn’t drive a Volt designed this way even if GM gave it to me FREE!!! Anybody else agree????

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avatar Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

We haven’t seen the end to higher gasoline and diesel prices. My wife drives approximately 600 miles per month- back and forth to work. We would never need to purchase gasoline- never! My solar panels would charge the vehicle and the price does not kill my enthusiasm either. Americans are very spoiled!!

Queen’s Lyrics still ring true

I want it all yeah yeah yeaaaah
I want it all, I want it all and I want it now
Oh oh oh oh oooh

And I want it – now
I want it, I want it
Ooooh ha

And I want it dirt freakin cheap!!!

Sorry folks, Chevy doesn’t have to give this puppy away and it will sell very well when gasoline hits $8.00 per gallon in the good ole USA.
Bring it on- Dubya

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Turtle Juice Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Why is GM spending so much time on aerodynamics. It is obvious that the Volt is going to be a hypermiler’s dream car. Have any of you ever been behind a hypermiler ?? Let me tell you aerodynamics ain’t a player in that game. How slow can you go.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Nelson #20.

I think you give North Americans too much credit.

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Bruce Wayne Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

Wassup Fellas
Looks like the Volt Nation is kickin tonite
37 Large will be the Volt sweet spot.
Now, if i can only get a second mortgage on my crib.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

Nasaman # 44 says,

For me, this design is a show stopper …..I wouldn’t drive a Volt designed this way even if GM gave it to me FREE!!! Anybody else agree????

–
Sorry, Nasaman. If GM gave me the Volt for free, you can bet I would take it, drive it, and be very very thankful for it. Seriously.

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Frank D Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

#44 nasaman: read what you are saying man! it’s not the end of the world. When and if GM is fortunate enough to survive these economic times and can manage to get the Volt out, I for one will drive a box before i continue to make any more financial contributions to oil companies!

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terryk Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

I’m getting a bit tired of GM implying the price will come down.

“Initial copies will be….”
“The price will be higher at first…”

The Volt will not drop in price at any time. It will only go up.

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Ida B Firmware Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:22 pm

I believe the Volt will have a Java Virtual Machine (JVM) built into its firmware. This is similar the rovers that are exploring Mars. The advantage of using Java is that the Volt command and control modules can be updated in mid flight (aka while your driving). You will leave home with a Volt version 1.0 and return with Volt 2.0 , of course your mileage will be increased and new features will automatically be visible on your display. Beta testers may have to sign a waiver or get additional insurance.

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I coulda had a V8 Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

There is a new motor being offered in GM’s smallest pickup next year. For the first time ever, you will be able to get a V8 engine in their SMALL pickup. That’s right folks, finally real power for the Chevy Colorado ! Looks like GM is heading in the right direction, fer sure.
Later Gearheads

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Carcus Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

Don’t underestimate how badly wagoner wants to keep an ICE in every vehicle. Why?
Service centers are cash cows, but the cows gotta eat. Pull the ICE out of the car and maintenance revenues will drop by 1/2 or more.

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Steel Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

#44

I agree its annoying, but given how the serial hybrid operates…. maybe it doesn’t need any of the cooling air at low speeds. Afterall, the highly efficient electric motors will be handling the acceleration from stored battery power.

I’d rather have 1 less system (failure point) and a car that uses less power. I’d also prefer a different design (fake things are terrible), but its really no different than those silly hood ornaments.

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Lurtz Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

I agree with NASAman’s negative opinion about the faux grill, though I would still buy it. (And with a spray can of flat black and that faux grill will disappear before the sun sets on it) I have never bought a car based on looks. American car companies are inexplicably obsessed with “trademark” design cues like portholes (Buick), gunsight grills (Dodge), dipping the bottom half of the car in plastic (Pontiac), or – what does Chevy do? Oh that’s why they have that ugly horizontal line?

I have no idea what Honda’s “trademark” design cues are, other than “We pwn GM/Ford/Chrysler”. Seriously, despite all my professional and personal interest in the artistic design of things, I never ever cared what my cars looked like. I have a Mini Cooper, and I do like the look; but a 144 inch length was the Alpha and Omega of the reasons I wanted it — I lived in San Francisco at the time and went from “coming home after work and circling blocks for 15 minutes looking for a place to park” to “that odd space between driveways that no one can park in? Unless you’re 150 inches or less? That’s my spot. Which one? ALL OF THEM.”

Anyway, as far as looks are concerned: I’ve never seen a good aesthetically designed American car. Start with the insistence on a GOLD, oversized “bowtie”. That’s not classy honey that’s clashy bordering on trashy. Next the “slap on more text than ingredients in cereal”, and all in mis-matching fonts, sizes, angles and cases: CHEVROLET Volt hybrid electric RANGE EXTENDER LT2 — You get the idea.

But GM’s artistic ineptness doesn’t bother me. I want a Volt. But for every $1k over $20k the cost is, makes me 10% less likely to be able to get it. I can just see the conversation now: “I’d like to get this Volt. It’s incredible –” “how much is it?” “$38k” “ARE YOU NUTS?”

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:04 am

#4 nasaman
That’s a little too principled for me. It may not be perfect, but it will still be a 40-mile AER E-REV.

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Teleport Me Tivo Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:10 am

Okay, I fast forwarded my Tivo last night to see what the future holds for the Volt. It looks like the Volt will eventually dump the ICE and go full electric with a newer type battery. All automakers now offer EVs in a wide variety of models. The EV industry has become very similar to the PC, Cellular, DVD, and MP3 industry of the early 2000 era. Many people assumed that once you had one you wouldn’t want or need another one. WRONG ANSWER. Turns out the EV models are updated so frequently now that everyone wants the latest and greatest. Some EV models are now nothing more than status symbols. Thank you Tivo for clearing things up, I can sleep much better now knowing that the Volt lives and prospers in the future.

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DonC Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:31 am

#44 nasaman -”In other words, GM is NOT going to use their existing actuated-louver technology to admit cooling air at low speeds, and reduce the air admitted at higher speeds to improve the aerodynamics”

Yup, those grills you described as “gorgeous” are going to be “fakes.” Since the idea of fake grills bothers you so much you’re obviously not from California …. (sorry I couldn’t resist).

Here’s the question: If you don’t need the grill to cool because the electronics and engine will be liquid or AC cooled, why would you want a functioning grill? (The air intake above the bumper may well be there to cut down on ground turbulence.)

I can understand why you might want to kill the grill and replace it with sheet metal — that would be my preference — but wanting to replace it with actuator-operated louvers which would have no greater function than a faux grill strikes me as strange.

As to the idea that the grill could be opened at lower speeds, Bonifice has said that, to the surprise of the design team, they found that the aerodynamic changes made a bigger difference at low speeds than at high. That’s hard to believe but it does suggest that drag is a significant factor at low speeds, which means that the grill should always be closed (or not there at all).

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Lurtz Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:07 am

55 Lurtz (me)

I feel I need to rephrase this:
I’ve never seen a good aesthetically designed American car.

American car designers are extremely talented as you can see in any of their concepts. It’s the sausage grinder of American car companies where middle-managers crappy-up their designs that I find inept.

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jbfalaska Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:50 am

Wow! What a pull together of all that is going on (PBS Charlie Rose). With pricing In the 30s, I’ll take two. No brainer. This will be the car that saved GM, and I’m starting to believe America. NO MORE FOREIGN OIL. For me, as a retired Air Force veteran, I’m equally pleased to pray, no more Oil HIghway protection money for my brethren soldiers, sailors, and marines.

CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-Fueled.

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Gary Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 2:46 am

55 Lurtz: “as far as looks are concerned: I’ve never seen a good aesthetically designed American car. Start with the insistence on a GOLD, oversized “bowtie”. That’s not classy honey that’s clashy bordering on trashy”

That’s a pretty strong statement to make. I can think of many past and present American-designed cars that look great. GM’s vehicles In the past few years have been far more attractive compared to a lot of the stuff coming out from non-American companies. Case in point: the entire Honda line has turned into a trainwreck with the CRV’s clown face to the Ridgeline’s interior controls that mimic a late 80s Grand Am. Awful. Acura’s new offerings have been beaten with an ugly stick as well.

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Gary Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 2:57 am

44 Nasaman Re: Fake Grilles

I personally would rather have fake grilles than a plain front. Do a google image search for 2000 pontiac grand prix se and then compare the results to 2000 pontiac grand prix gt. Having some sort of styling cues between the headlights looks much better than having nothing there at all–or even worse, having the grille too low. If I was buying a Grand Prix, I sure would have been willing to pay extra for the GT version just for the front end styling.

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me here Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 3:10 am

$30k after any rebates is my top price at the moment, maye in 2012 when they are more available (I am no tin CA, FLA) I can afford more. Hopefully this current ecnomic malaise wil be over by then

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hermant Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:02 am

So the Volt will be reasonably priced. That’s nice to hear. And it has contemporary styling front to back that appeals to everyone. How wonderful! It’s roomy, dependable, and oh so environmentally friendly. That’s great. And even though it sounds like it will be available in no time, lickety split, boy, I still can’t wait. Life is good. Have a magical day!

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hermant Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:05 am

Sorry for that last post. I was dreaming about driving around a future Obama nation in my new American made Chevrolet Volt. But you have to admit, it really would be a wonderful dream.

I’m so glad the doctor finally got my meds adjusted correctly…

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ausmartin Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:47 am

Rick makes s sence

BUT GM better keep Larry Burns in his box, he’s been spouting Hydrogen again – made by wait for it.
A Large Nuclear reactor in a secure site ……

Larry’s out of his mind and should be pensioned off as he’s a real worry. An I’m afraid the oil industry might be taking a leak in his trouser pocket.

Hydrogen is just a joke efficiency wise & wasted option – why not
have money spent on Ultra caps / batteries or near term even LPG/CNG gas injection etc.

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omegaman66 Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:02 am

Apparently any tax credits will go to GM instead of you. Sounds like they will bump up the price a bit depending on the amount of the tax credit. At best I would guess you could hope to split it with GM.

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Texas Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:03 am

Great interview Mr. Wagoner, I am more confident now that the Volt and the E-Flex platform are criticle to GM. Not only for their future but for the current employees. The Volt is a beacon of hope that dejected employes can look towards for motivation to get out of bed and get to work. While others are always telling them how bad things are and that they are the ones that killed the electric car, they can keep their heads up and think, “Just you wait.”. That feeling of having an ace in the hole. A ringer in that big game.

I am happy to hear that Mr. Wagoner obviously understands this and therefore am quite sure the the Volt will make it to the showroom with massive support from senior executives. From the chairman of the board to the guy that is delivering the mail everyone can rally around the Volt, the next automotive revolution.

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omegaman66 Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:05 am

I like the chevy logo… so there.

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Dave G Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:29 am

OK, here’s what I think GM will do with the price. GM is trying to get a $7000 tax credit for the Volt. They originally said the price will be under $30,000. So, I think they will price it at $36,995. That would make it $29,995 after the tax credit. State taxes and fees will bring that up, but hopefully dealer discounts will bring it down, so in the end it may cost around $30K. Let’s hope so…

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omegaman66 Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:45 am

I think they will price it… errr I should say I fear they will price it at 37K and if the 7k tax credit happens then they will instead move the price up to about 42K!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:00 am

#70 Dave G. says,
…..but hopefully dealer discounts will bring it down, so in the end it may cost around $30K.

—-

Oh I’m pretty sure the dealers will change the price alright, but they won’t be lowering it.
My bet is we will see that $7K credit all but disappear by the price gouging (excuse me. I mean Dealer markup) that they will do.

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koz Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:22 am

Don C #58

“As to the idea that the grill could be opened at lower speeds, Bonifice has said that, to the surprise of the design team, they found that the aerodynamic changes made a bigger difference at low speeds than at high”

I don’t think this is accurate. I believe GM said early on in the design process that wind drag was the most important single factor for EREVs affecting efficiency. This was true at low speeds too and even more important than weight.

If Bob said recently that wind drag is more important at low speeds than it is at high speeds, then he misspoke.

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nuclearboy Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:26 am

My 2cents on the fake grill topic.

Who cares.
There are fake louvers and other useless design details all over cars today (think of all of those fake hood scoops). I personally would still consider a volt even if they put the fake (stick on) wood paneling on the side.

In the end, the styling will appeal to the masses but will obviously not (and could not) make everyone happy.

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Kaido Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:32 am

#32 Statik

Thank you for further explaining. My point exactly.
I was actually prognosing the future inflation to be lower than 2007/2008, where CPI went up about 6.5% largely owing to fuel and energy cost increase.

Now, what is all means to the price of Volt in 2010 is that when GM execs are talking about 40000$ today you should calculate it back to today by adjusting by inflation.

So, if 2010 inflation is 5%, 2009 , 5% then at the end of the year 2008 you should do this little calculation on 2010 prices:

2010 price / 1.05E2 = 2008-end adjusted price

40000 / 1.1025 = 36281

So if Wagoner is speaking of 40000 max at the end of 2010, then it translates to ca 36000 $ today.

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Jim in PA Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:46 am

I really can’t understand why the Volt would be much more than mid $30K BEFORE the incentives. Think about it; there are technically complex hybrids from Toyota and Honda coming in 2009 that hover around the low $20K price point. If the Volt has an additional $10,000 tacked on to cover the battery pack, that understandably brings it up to mid $30k. Can someone please explain to me how it could be as high as mid $40K? Where does this additional ten thousand dollars find its way into the constructed cost? I don’t get it. Especially when they are making some savings on things like the transmission. Am I missing something here? If you ask me, the Volt’s final price will be $29,995 after incentives. Quite franky I don’t understand how it could be any higher. Unless, of course, GM is trying to recoup R&D costs this early in the game, which would be stupid given the EFlex technology will be globally implemented.

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Morgan Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:00 am

44 Nasaman:

I like the fact that the grills are faux. Makes cleaning the darn thing that much easier.

53 Carcus:

GM makes more money selling you aftermarket parts than they do from service parts. Service is a DEALER cash cow not an OEM cash cow and at this point GM doesn’t really give a rip what happens to their dealers.

76 Jim in PA:

The Japanese government either funded or paid Toyota for the R&D thereby they didn’t and don’t have to amortize any of the development costs. GM has no such luxury.

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Cire Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:02 am

Don C #58

“As to the idea that the grill could be opened at lower speeds, Bonifice has said that, to the surprise of the design team, they found that the aerodynamic changes made a bigger difference at low speeds than at high”

He said aerodynamic drag effected the range more then weight does even at low speeds, which is sort of surprising but not unbelieveable. Aero matters even more at high speeds.

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THOM Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:06 am

When running with the engine backup, this car will use much more fuel than the prius!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:11 am

Thom # 79 says,
When running with the engine backup, this car will use much more fuel than the prius!

———
Why?

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Jim I Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:13 am

nasaman: Glad to see you back, but your position is kind of extreme, don’t you think? If one item is not perfect you would dump the entire project? I have yet to buy a “perfect” car or actually just about anything else. There is always something that could be better, and it usually gets changed in a later model.

Pricing: I think I have made over a dozen posts on this, but here we go once more….

It is a useless waste of time to discuss price. This far out, GM has no way to have a pinpoint price on the vehicle. They have not even hit the “design freeze” point yet. When you see a sticker price on an actual vehicle, that is when you will make up your mind. And lets not forget that if GM or the dealers make it too expensive, it will not sell. And dealers can not afford to have cars sitting on the lots, so then the “markups” will quickly disappear. The $5K dealer markup was the first thing to go when negotiating the purchase of my Crossfire.

For me, I can afford up to $40K, but that is not the point. It will depend on how it performs, how comfortable it is, the fit and finish, the interior layout, exterior styling, warranty, and service capabilities of the dealerhip. And of course, it will have to be sky blue metallic!

Only 26 months and 11 days until November 1, 2010!

GO GM! GO GM Volt Team!!! Jim I – #1196 on the GM-Volt.com waiting list

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DC Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:15 am

“Mid to high 30s” means he has some wiggle room there. So it could be low 40s and he wouldnt have been too far off since he said high 30s. But lets say it is 37-39k – that means it is going to be well over $40k after taxes, misc dealer charges and probably a dealer add-on for high demand cars.

No thanks. I paid $37k for my current car – a fully loaded AWD Infinit 07 G35x that gets 26 mpg. Is that great? Nope, but the rest of the car is incredible. I’m not going to pay $40k+ for a niche car that may or may not be the only player in the market at the time its released. As noted, other car companies are already leaking word of other high mileage cars coming out – and they are believed to be in the low $20k range. Who is going to buy a Volt for $40k+ when a comparable car can be had for half that? Hell right now I’m thinking of buying an ‘09 Camaro as a second car if as thought the base model is under $20k.

Last year, I would have given it a 90% probability that the Volt was a wild success. But as I start to hear comments on pricing, and see the dumbed down design from the look of the concept, and hear of everything the other car companies are doing – I’m now at a 50% chance.

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Joe Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:20 am

nasaman Says:@4

“I asked Boniface for details on the Volt’s actuator-operated louvers (an existing GM technology) and his response was the “Grille panels are fixed on the Volt!” I’m EXTREMELY UPSET about this!!! What I’ve seen of the final design is gorgeous, but if there’s anything I hate, it’s FORM WITHOUT FUNCTION!!! YUK!!!

What a shame, because it means the “bean counter” mentality really has affected the Volt design, and in a major way! The lower grill is open, allowing the two HUGE “Chevy signature” grills to be nothing but FAKES! THIS IS TERRIBLE!!!

FIX THIS, GM!!!!!!!!!”

When I first saw the grill I felt the same way as you did. I also hate fake things, especially in vehicles. GM might want to surprise us with the new technology that you mention. This technology is call “smart materials”. I know GM is suppose to start using “smart materials” in their 2010 vehicles and the Volt would be a perfect place to start. I think the grill will be functional and it will open and close by using this new technology. If not, fixing the problem would be very expensive.

For those who have not heard of “smart materials”, check the link below.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmtpi/is_200703/ai_n18699862

http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/6252

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statik Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:26 am

#75 Kaido

“So if Wagoner is speaking of 40000 max at the end of 2010, then it translates to ca 36000 $ today.”

I knew what you were driving at in post #23. I just used it as a excuse to post on inflation…that kind of talk is my cup of tea.

#33 JEC

I did have a whole big ditty actually on short term impact of the $30 fallback on oil, but the post got REALLY long, so I cut it. Long story short, the $30 pullback might mitigate some of the increases in inflation….but certainly not all.

I don’t think even the cost of $115/oil has been nearly felt by the market, the arbitrarily low interest rates are over compensating for it, giving people/businesses a false sense of security/financial well-being and way more cashflow/profit margins than they should be getting, thus cancelling out alot of ’street level inflation’ on products and services…at the cost of the fed/dollar, which is the double edge sword. You put the rate at where it should be floating 4.5%-5.0% now, 7-9% next year and I think the reality of the US situation would be very different.

Back to #75 Kaido:

I in no way think that Wagoner is pricing in inflation, this is the guy that never looks into the future. He is always claiming that GM didn’t see this condition or that condition in the future and is even now banking on a ‘turnaround’ to help GM get to profitability.

I think Wagoner is giving ‘best case’ here. $38,000 maybe, after $7,000 rebate….in today’s dollars, not adjusted for inflation. This guy never under-promises/over-delivers…he has the exact opposite track record, and past performance usually indicates future performance.

Side note: About the grill at the front…I’m more concerned with losing the wheel wells/side shape, that is where the ’sexiness’ of the concept Volt is coming from…and that is always the part that is missing in these ‘teaser’ pics. The teaser front quarter panel seems to indicate they are all but gone.

Original:
http://www.gm-volt.com/galleries/album/72157603653293621/photo/2172217205/Chevy-Volt-2007-Chevrolet-Volt-Concept.html

Teaser:
http://www.gm-volt.com/galleries/album/72157603653293621/photo/2766147111/Chevy-Volt-Chevrolet-Volt-Production-Version.html

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o.jeff Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:31 am

I thought the discussion about CAFE versus gasoline taxes was very interesting. I never really understood GM’s full argument against CAFE. Now I understand it. The European approach to improving fuel economy is to hike gasoline taxes. This causes consumers to demand higher efficiency vehicles and actually buy them. The USA approach to mandating a certain MPG means that higher fuel economy vehicles will be available but will not be bought by the marketplace.

This is yet another reason for a gasoline price “floor” or just generally increasing the taxes. I think this is a wise policy. The increased taxes could pay for a lot of very nice rebates for purchasers of new vehicles. The rebates would make the policy more saleable to the public.

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Joe Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 7:41 am

nasaman Says: @4

I asked Boniface for details on the Volt’s actuator-operated louvers (an existing GM technology) and his response was the “Grille panels are fixed on the Volt!” I’m EXTREMELY UPSET about this!!! What I’ve seen of the final design is gorgeous, but if there’s anything I hate, it’s FORM WITHOUT FUNCTION!!! YUK!!!

What a shame, because it means the “bean counter” mentality really has affected the Volt design, and in a major way! The lower grill is open, allowing the two HUGE “Chevy signature” grills to be nothing but FAKES! THIS IS TERRIBLE!!!

FIX THIS, GM!!!!!!!!!

*************************************************************

I feel the same way as you do about fake designs. When I first saw the Volt grill, I thought maybe GM was going to use ’smart materials”, I think that’s what you were referring to. Maybe but maybe, Boniface wants to surprise us and is not telling all. Let’s hope that’s the case. If not, fixing the problem would very expensive.
For those who want info on “smart materials” check the links below.

http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/6252

http://www.jumpthecurve.net/index.php/recent_posts/general_motors_jumps_the_curve_with_smart_materials/

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mikeinatl. Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Haven’t had time to read the whole thread but when discussing pricing, don’t forget this is an NOT APPLES TO APPLES comparison. VOLT is not an
all-gas powered car.

The cost of car ownership includes the price of the car PLUS operational expense.

For the 78% of US drivers that go less than 40 miles per day, they could be paying less than one dollar a day to get there. (The price of the electricity to charge batteries.)

At $4.00 per gallon for gas that should equate to a savings of about $160 per month. (vs 25 mpg gas car.)

So $660 per month ( 5 years @ 5%) less $160 in gas savings equals $500 per month actually spent. (This is true even if you then go more than 40 miles per day and start using gasoline.)

VOLT will be more affordable to OWN. And gas prices will eventually get beyond $4.00 again making it even MORE affordable to own.

This math even gets better if there are $5k to $7k tax breaks.

As always, your mileage may vary and you should do your own math to see if VOLT would work for you in your own situation. But it just might, even at a higher initial price point.

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GXT Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 8:45 am

86. mikeinatl,

This has been hashed out many times. Until battery prices change radically the Volt is, under no circumstances, a good economic purchase given $15,000 Civics and a sub $20,000 Honda GSH in early 2009.

By your $500/month standard, the GSH (@$20,000, 50MPG) will cost $377 to finance and save ~$63/month in gas for a total cost of $~314/month. So even under one of the most Volt-ideal situation (40 miles per day, electicitiy rates unchanged) , the volt will cost ~60% more than the GSH.

We need to find another reason for the Volt to succeed, because the economics are currently bad for the consumer and bad for GM.

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Dave B Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 8:59 am

Nasaman (Phil) @ 4 and 44,

I see your point that “pointless” grills and other functionless aesthetic items on the Volt (like the grill) are a bad idea. Form without function is a waste of materials. However, how much cost will “smart materials” and function add to the bottom line, as well as complexities that can go wrong down the road?

I do not want to pay extra for a bell or whistle that can go wrong down the road if it isn’t needed. The real attractive thing about an electric vehicle is it should last a hell of a lot longer than an ICE because of lack of moving parts. I know an E-REV has an ICE, but let’s not make this thing too complicated or expensive or it’ll turn in to a disaster…a maintenance disaster that us non-rocket scientists will have to take to the shop weekly to keep running. KISS. But I agree, do not put a grill on there if it doesn’t do anything.

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Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:17 am

Now comes the pricing shuffle, the percieved value of the product compaired to the competitive product and how it affects market share. Do not think Toyota is above buying the electric car market by losing money on new product for years to control the market.
HEY! I’m talking to you GM marketing guys, don’t let them snooker you. We want to see GM as the leader and control this market…

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Tagamet Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:27 am

Welcome back nasaman.
“Saw” you at the chat yesterday.
As I’ve said a few times before, GM needs this car to be bullet proof and that means the fewer things that can go wrong, WILL go wrong. Alexander the Great said. “A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow”. I’m not sure who said “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”, but I agree.
Let’s keep it simple sweetheart and

Let’s get the Volt’s wheels on the road!.

Be well,
Tag

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Bailers Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:35 am

For less than $30,000, I will be able to buy the Cobalt replacement and get 40 or more MPG. At almost any price I can live with a gallon a day for my commute. But at around $30K I might also be able to buy something exotic like an Aptera or a VentureOne. I’m not even thinking about any of the other players, or a Th!nk. If GM wants this to be a commercial success, it HAS to be less than 35K, and even better if at 30 or below.
With the death of easy leasing, a $40K car will be out of the reach of probably 95% of the people in the US. Having this technology out there, but only available for the “rich”, will hurt GM’s public image and drive customers to other companies that are building cars for the masses.

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George B. Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:48 am

I personally have no problem with the first Volts being expensive. I don’t expect I will even see one for the first production year…rich guys in California and N.Y will snap them all up. But once they start taking off and the production costs stabilize, they should be affordable and technically proven. After a few years, we should see after market battery packs that cost half what A123 and the rest will have to charge for their wares.

Can’t wait to get this train out of the station!

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psklenar Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:49 am

#91 Bailers
“With the death of easy leasing …”

That’s a point I don’t recall having seen discussed. The EV1 was only available via lease due to, as I understand it, concerns about the battery packs and ongoing support. Has there been any public discussion (by GM, not you lot ) as to whether they are leaning the same way this time (lease only), or whether these will be available for actual purchase?

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Tim Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:51 am

I don’t like fake anything and I noticed the “grill” is not real on the Volt, but painted to look like a fake grill. If it’s not functional, GM should remove it altogether.

GM can and MUST do better!

To Mr. Wagner’s defense, he did say “the first ones” implying that as volume increases, prices should decrease. He’s also correct in saying that GM will have no problem selling all they can produce even at a $35-$40K/copy.

Of course, Washington’s uncontrolled spending on military and socialist programs (just like the Soviets) and the resulting collapsing US $Dollar will affect credit availability and pricing. This will be more acute in imported components where the exchange rate is more sharply felt.

Only time will tell…

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DonC Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:52 am

#73 Koz

Cire @ #78 has the exactly quote right. That’s what I was trying to say. I don’t remember where I saw this but it was in some interview or other.

The underlying point which I didn’t manage to get out very well was that if aero drag is more important than weight, which implies more important than rolling resistance, at low speeds as well as high, then it’s the largest factor in the range at all speeds and you would want to make sure you minimized it at all speeds. IOW don’t open the grill.

I find the claim about aero and weight hard to believe actually.

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Joe Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:58 am

Some people don’t seem to understand that any new high tech products, at first it will be very expensive. If the product is great, consumers will buy it…..we all know this. GM can not sell cars at a loss any more than any other company. Just be patience and the price will go down, just like DVD players, flat screen TVs, ETC.

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Guy Incognito Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:58 am

I don’t buy the view fostered by Rick Wagoner in this vid that there’s no money to be made in small cars, that the consumer does’nt want fuel efficient vehicles.
I’d like to remind him that both Volkswagen & Toyota made a killing with the Bettle & Corolla respectively in the American Market, giving them something that GM is continuing to lose; market share.
Also found it interesting that Wagoner made sure to mention early on that GM is much better off now since they don’t have to pay healthcare.
He fails to mention that in addition to that, GM has also cut the starting wage of new hires in half.
Now I’m going to watch the Bob Lutz interview on my DVR.

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Gordon Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 9:59 am

I think what will determine the final cost will be the interior. Anyone remember the dash on the EV-1 ? A digital speedo and a few warning lights. That’s all the VOLT needs too, but I’ll bet that the designers will go for way to much flash and luxury to make sure it “looks” more plush than a Prius. Excessive luxury features is why the Tahoe HYBRID is so expensive and not selling as fast as it could. I recall a posting on this site for a 70K-plus Escalade HYBRID! Talk about excessive. If they are smart, they will go with a minimalist approach like the EV-1 (or the Aptera #91, which is really cool) to keep the costs down. Just make the two front seats comfortable for a 60-minute commute on the 91 or 405 freeway and all will be forgiven.

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Jim I Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:12 am

The Volt will not be the car for everyone!

For many, it will make more sense to buy a small ICE based car.

For others, having a daily 40 mile AER is the better way to go.

Every situation is different, and you will have to decide what is best for you. It really is that simple….

For me, there is the added attraction of not having to purchase much gasoline from people that hate us. That is worth something to me, and I am willing to pay a bit more for the car to achieve that goal!

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Mike Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:14 am

In 1996 the EV-1’s battery pack had a maximum range of 80–100 miles per charge. Why is it with modern battery packs that the Volt is being designed to get a maximum of 40 miles per charge before the ICE takes over as a power generator.

I’d be interested in hearing why GM isn’t making a Volt with a maximum mile per charge in the 80-100 mile range before the ICE kicks in. Ask Lutz that, ask Wagoner that.

I think GM is doing a good thing here, and I’ll buy a Volt, but our cars got better gas mileage after the oil embargo in the late 70’s and 80’s than they do now.

Also, why does GM (et.al.) fight higher CAFE standards and cry that they are just delivering on what consumers want? What I want is an all electric Jeep that gets an equivalent of 200mpg with the same power and torque of todays Jeeps. They can build whatever they want, history has shown that they can meet any demand and regulation, they just need to stop being lazy, greedy people.

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mikeinatl. Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:17 am

#87GXT.

All points well made. And that is why I like this blog.
Excellent discussion and ideas.

There is another viable theory that one can buy a $5,000 used car that gets 25 mpg and save even more.

All I was saying is to consider reduced operational costs when discussing price.

Perhaps the “other reason” you yearn for is that hopefully one day we can dramatically reduce our use of gasoline, stop sending so much $ to countries that hate us, and stop pumping so much carbon-based exhaust into the air. It is in everyone’s best interest to be on a path that accomplishes that goal. The VOLT methodology could help us to do that.

Have you noticed how Russia is starting to flex its muscles now that they are awash in oil dollars? We need to get moving on energy independence NOW.
Mideast pipelines, Straights of Hormuz, major storms in the Gulf of Mexico. All are vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable.

Perhaps a combination of government mandates, ever-improving battery technology and competition will bring the prices of this type of car within reasonable reach of the consumer.

But you are right. In the end, economics drives everything.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:18 am

A couple of things from me.

Belloc @ 17: Nobody seemed to pick up on this yet, but I agree that one of the BIGGEST mistakes GM could make with the Volt is to accidently or intentionally label the range extender as a “back up”. Rick needs to correct that statement ASAP. The range extender IS the engineering accomplishment that differentiates the Volt from the rest of the pack. Although the battery is the key element, the RE is the key to consumers acceptance, comfort, and utility of the car. PLEASE do not call the RE a “backup” again! A huge mistake.

Lurtz @ 55:

The fact that you do not buy cars based on looks (although that is suspect, I have never met anyone with a mini where looks were not key in the buying decision) puts you in an extremely small minority. Most people wear their cars just like a nice suit or good clothes. If you are going to spend that much money on a car, it needs to do as much for your brain as it does getting you around town. It’s just the way it is. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

As far as American cars go, you must be either too old or too young to remember the glory days of car design. The 50’s, 60’s, and even 70’s brought us some of the best car designs and designers in history. The fact that you do not like American cars is fine, to each his own. But to dis the entire U.S. car design history makes you sound simply uninformed and silly.

I have a problem with today’s car designs because they are not creative enough; too many literally look like clones. The badge is all that differentiates them. And a lot of people see no problem with that and even want more generic, boring designs. This really worries me. Have we REALLY become so enthralled with our electronic and visual toys and online communities that we think of a car as just another meaningless appliance? Just another tool? Will we go down the same road with our clothes, phones, homes as well? Will our jobs eventually be nothing more than a money making exercise? And THAT would be progress?

I feel for my future grand kids if things “progress” that way. And I will do all I can to prevent it. GM needs to build cars owners can enjoy and have pride in owning. Get them out of the house, away from our computers and TV’s and experience the outdoors. What a concept! Just take a drive for NO REASON AT ALL. Am I the only one who does this anymore? How many people consider that wasting gas?

The Volt and cars like it are the answer. But design needs to be kept intact and as important as the technology. That is why the Volt design is critical. It will help send us down one of two paths.

Yikes, this is long.

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psklenar Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:27 am

#98 Gordon
“… If they are smart, they will go with a minimalist approach like the EV-1 (or the Aptera #91, which is really cool) to keep the costs down. …”

These posts on the Aptera piqued my interest so I’ve just gone out and looked at their site … $27K for the EV and $30K for the EREV (”subject to change”). 2 seater. No published estimate on range yet. Available in Southern CA only (not even all of CA, not that matters to me up here in New England). No initial support for winter use (hence limit to Southern CA).

Not that I can afford it, but what I read over on the Aptera site leads me to suspect that $40K for a Volt (4 seater, all climate, stated ranges, etc) may well be a fair price.

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RLM Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:48 am

I see lots of agonizing over the economics of purchasing a Volt, and I understand it, but for some of us the decision is not based on Economics.
I hope and believe that the Volt is a first step on a path that will lead to a revolution in ground transportation, Electrical infrastructure and Foreign Policy.
I am not a young man (I will be 81 years old when the Volt becomes available) so I don’t know how much I will get to see of these developments. Therefore, I will pay any reasonable amount to savor this first step.

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Volt Designer Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:53 am

Hey Nasaman

I’m actually working on those grills. Not done with the design yet but getting there. We’re trying to get enough air around the outside of the grill so that we don’t need to open it up. Its a styling thing. They like the looks of it. Sorry man, no spring loaded mechanisms.

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noel park Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:54 am

#36 left wing lear-jet liberal

Thanks.

#40 Mark:

Yeah, wait for it!

#75 Kaido & #83 Statik:

Take $115/bbl oil and add on a couple of trillion $ for the lovely little war(s), all financed with borrowed money, and the pot really begins to boil. Remember what happened to inflation during and after Vietnam? Never mind that the war(s) were a major trigger of the $115 oil.

I am rapidly losing confidence that I will have the money to buy a Volt in 2011-12, no matter what the price ends up being. Plus, Statik’s historic comments about the short term viability of GM remain valid, IMHO. A 40K Volt is going to be a niche car, never mind their very modest professed production plans. At this rate, E-Flex is not coming to the rescue for what, 10 years? No one has explained to me yet how they plan to avoid disaster in the meantime.

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noel park Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:59 am

#102 MetrologyFirst:

Thanks. I think I’ll go out in the shop and take a look at my ‘55 Corvette. Maybe it’ll make me feel better

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maharguitar Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am

I’m inclined to agree that the Volt will not go down in price. But GM claims that the E-flex system is going to be used on a whole range of cars. As the price of the components drops, cheaper models will be introduced. The Volt may not be in your future but a Saturn of some sort may well be.

I just looked at the picture of the Volt grille and it looks like it might be etched and not just a honeycomb painted on. Some current research in airfoils is showing that an air flow disrupter at the leading edge can reduce drag. I have no information or even a real hint that this is true for the Volt but there is a possibility that the grill does have a function and that putting a piece of sheet metal there might adversely affect the drag.

I find the comments here about styling to be most amusing. There is no good or bad. There is just like or don’t like. Just because you think a particular styling element is really cool doesn’t mean that the next guy doesn’t think that it is hideous. There may be more people in the market place who agree with the next guy than agree with you.

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Randy Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am

Priced at that level GM once again shows they don’t care to bring electric vehicles to the general masses.

I’m sorry but in a depressed economy how can a working family afford a 35 – 40k car?

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mitch Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am

#97 as to paying 1/2 wages to the new hires..it was not arbitrary, the union agreed (they needed to)

#100 ” but our cars got better gas mileage after the oil embargo in the late 70’s and 80’s than they do now” they are calculated differently.

Regarding the CAFE aurgument. CAFE is a CROCK..it forces the manufacturers to make better efficiency, with no payout..consumers may or may not buy them.

THere are higher efficiency units in europe because they want the higher mileage due to high fuel taxes.

For example if CAFE says.. 40 MPG, but you gas is 1.50/gal..what is your incentive? none..that is why big SUV’s and trucks sold so well…fast forwad to 4.00 gasoline…OOOO, now we wnat the better mileage, truck and SUV sales tank…imagine the Euro equivalent of 8.00/gal fuel…where will market drive you? a Ram 2500 with a V10 Hemi? not too friggin likely…

That is why CAFE was fought..makeing higher mileage units only costs the manufactuer, there was no REASON to buy a 40MPG cobalt when you could fill a silverado for 25bucks…

It is typical bass ackwards gubermint thinking…

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Schmeltz Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am

Nasaman #44:
Regarding the “fake grille” on the front of the Volt, although I agree with you that a functional grille as you mentioned would be better, this really isn’t a deal breaker for me personally. Of what I’ve seen recently here of GM people pulling back part of the shroud on the vehicle, the car looks good so far. We all have the image of the concept engraved in our minds, and any changes to that are making are going to be outrageous and unacceptable to some here. This car will not please everyone in all things. I am trying to keep an open mind about the look of this car and take its design with a grain of salt, that being that it is a mainstream electric car being offered for the first time by one of the biggest manufacturers of the world. I do want the car to be beautiful and trend setting, but if they trim a corner here, or stretch some sheet metal over there in the name of improving aerodynamics and efficiency, then I am accepting of it.

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N Riley Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:21 am

Great interview video, Lyle. Hope we will get to see Bob Lutz’s interview also.

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Dave G Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:22 am

#110 mitch,

I agree. CAFE will never work. There are no financial motivations with CAFE.

If the U.S. was really serious about efficient cars, we would raise the gas tax significantly – not as much as Europe, but a lot more than we have now.

In particular, it would be good to raise the gas tax as oil prices fall. This would help avoid the situation we had in the 90’s where low gas prices led to more people wanting huge vehicles.

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Morgan Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:31 am

109 Randy:

In a depressed economy why would a working family consider purchasing a new never titled car to begin with?

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nuclearboy Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:41 am

#106 Noel Park

I have no idea what GM’s future holds but it surely does not rest on the Volt.

As for the volt. It will sell as fast as they make them (which may not be too fast). The volt will sell and will create a green halo for GM. There are plenty of people in the Washington DC area that can and will buy them at 45K per pop (overpaid Govt. workers). This is a new design. Not everyone can afford one. Hell, many can’t afford a new car at all.

GM already has the Cobalt XFE at 36 mpg and the 09 models are claiming 37 mpg. This will sell. The Chevy Cruze claims a 9 mpg boost over the regular cobalt (people are saying 40+ mpg). This thing will sell. The new minivan replacement looks like it is selling well in my area. I test drove it. It is awesome. Of course they have all of these in most of the flavors (GM Pontiac, etc..)

The Saturn Vue will have a mild hybrid in 09 along with the two mode hybrid. The two mode should be one of the best hybrids on the road in 09. It looks like a plug in will be ready in 2010 (beating the volt to market). A plug in vue will be awsome for many. We will read about hyper milers using no gas at all or getting hundreds of miles per gallon with this thing. The typical user will get motorbike class mileage out of a small SUV. It should sell well.

They are bringing over a small car from ASIA in the next couple of years. This will put them in tiny car space for whatever thats worth.

These cars, the malibu and brothers, along with future E-flex designs show that GM is firing on all cylinders right now. The next few years could really bring GM back from the brink.

I hope they pull it off. There are plenty of people in the “GM sucks” or “only the Japs can do that” crowd. I for one still have faith that a big US company can succeed when they have to.

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Jackson Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 11:49 am

Nasaman (welcome back, hope it wasn’t my breath):

If you go back and look at pictures of the very first automobiles, you will see a lot of things that don’t make sense for a self-powered vehicle. For one thing, nearly all of them had engines in the rear. Why? “Because people sit in the front of a carriage.” They sat there because it was where you had to sit to control the horse(s) with reins. They were called “horseless carriages” for a reason.

Now we come to the electrification of the automobile. It makes perfect sense to me that at first there will be features which make no sense on an electric car, only because it’s what people expect to see on those four-wheeled transportation thingies.

#70:

You won’t see a dealer discount on an EREV or BEV before 2020 at the earliest.

#79:

“When running with the engine backup, this car will use much more fuel than the prius!”

Cite reference, please.

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Cautious Fan Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

In my aerodynamics classes back in college, we studied how moving the radiator of a car downward reduced the Cd. But, since most people are used to seeing a grille higher on a car, for styling the grill must appear higher else it looks “bad”. I suspect this is driving the Volt to a faux grille for style, and the real one lower. I tried finding references for this on the web but couldn’t, so if anyone can support/discredit this, please do so.

Though adding mechanical louvers over the radiator opening reduces drag, they also increase cost and complexity. And if the louvers gets stuck closed, the car overheats. Engineers like to “KISS” remember. There’s always a trade-off. Considering the focus on aero on the Volt, I’d assume this trade-off was considered.

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N Riley Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

#44 nasaman

Well, it would be extremely difficult to turn down a free Volt. Maybe a free “any car”. I understand where you are coming from, but I also understand GM’s reason for doing this. I would rather have them design the front end with more slope and pretty much do away with the grill rather than make it non-functioning. But if they had done away with the grill, it would have been a extreme departure from the looks of the concept that everyone was “in love with”. GM did the lesser of two evils here and still gave us a great looking car.

I think you need to consider what you are saying again. Give GM some credit for trying to stick as much to the concept as possible and still gain the lower wind resistance needed.

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nasaman Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

105 Volt Designer…..(Re my #4 & #44 + the many related comments)…..

You said, ” Hey Nasaman, I’m actually working on those grills. Not done with the design yet but getting there. We’re trying to get enough air around the outside of the grill so that we don’t need to open it up. Its a styling thing. They like the looks of it. Sorry man, no spring loaded mechanisms.”

Thanks for your response, Volt Designer! As you know, the actuator-controlled spring-loaded mechanisms we’re talking about are based on very simple, reliable, existing GM technology intended for exactly this purpose ….i.e., closing a vehicle’s grill openings as vehicle speeds increase to provide BOTH reduced drag as speed increases AND improved cooling under low-speed, high ambient temperature conditions. They were included on the Cadillac Provoq concept revealed early this year as shown in this high resolution photo…..

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/ces-2008-cadillac-provoq-live-reveal-2/569301/full/

The Volt’s 1.4L gas engine, comfort A/C, the battery cooling loop (if separate from the comfort A/C), as well as all motors/generators/controllers which could collectively dissipate several hundred watts ALL must be cooled under worse-case conditions such as…. battery discharged (gas engine running) when stalled in heavy traffic or stopped in Death Valley at ambient temps of 120 F or more. I recognize that the large blacked-out grill below the Volt’s “bumper area” would very likely admit enough fan-forced air to cool the radiators placed directly behind it. But the increased aerodynamic drag caused by admitting air into the under-hood area of the car, whether done through this low-mounted, blacked-out grill or through the high-mounted grills, simply CANNOT be insignificant!

ATTN: Bob Lutz, Bob Boniface, Andrew Farah, et al ….I strongly suggest this matter be carefully worse-case analyzed before any decision is finalized that avoids use of GM’s existing simple, inexpensive actuator-operated mechanisms to control air flow into the Volt’s under-hood area! Breakdowns in hot summer traffic stalled on Phoenix or Houston freeways and with the A/C on full blast would be DISASTROUS to GM’s reputation and to Volt sales! Get it right!!!

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Joe Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Lurtz @ 55:
“I have a problem with today’s car designs because they are not creative enough; too many literally look like clones. The badge is all that differentiates them. And a lot of people see no problem with that and even want more generic, boring designs.”

*************************************************************

With the cars of the yesteryear’s, designers were more creative with styles because cars were not aerodynamic. Because of this reason, styles of today’s cars are much more difficult to do.

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omegaman66 Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

I guess I can’t blame anyone and shouldn’t expect anything different on a site dedicated to a car… but I am so sick of hearing about the grill and how soooo many people think the car is ugly that I want to puke. Drop it… who cares about the freaking grill and the car isn’t ugly. There end of discussion. hehe

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omegaman66 Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Dave G. #110

Yeah woohoo…. lets raise gas taxes and shove another knife into economy. That will help people be able to afford solar panels and volts.

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Car and Driver editorial integrity - or - how much was Csaba paid by GM? : If it’s got an engine . . . Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Kaido Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

#86 mikeinatl

I do keep an Excel-table of various cars I consider options for me and I’ve made a cost comparison. Of course it’s all European prices (Estonian actually) but it sort of gives an overview.

If Volt would cost 45000$ in the EU it would be cheaper than todays Prius. BUT the two vehicles (Volt & Prius) on the list are the ONLY ones for which the capital cost exceeds the fuel price. Toyota has also been making statements about reducing the price of next gen. Prius.

In my comparison I’ve considered total cost of ownership for an 8-year period and added up the capital cost (investment depreciation, not leasing interest), maintenance and insurance costs, accounting for 85%/15% city/hwy usage. The Volt’s city consumption I rated 0 (l/100km), highway 0.75.
Fuel price average over the 8 years is taken really pessimistic: 3$/liter (ca 10$/gallon).

Despite the fuel price in this comparison the Volt ends up losing to cheaper and smaller models of the Volkswagen Group ( Skoda Octavia TDi, Seat Leon TDi) and is roughly the equal of VolksWagen Golf 1.4 TSI 7-gear automatic, Honda Civic 1.8 automatic and Toyota Auris 1.6.

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N Riley Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

#84 o.Jeff

“The increased taxes could pay for a lot of very nice rebates for purchasers of new vehicles. The rebates would make the policy more saleable to the public.”

And those tax revenues could go in the same lock box as do our social security taxes. I suggested several weeks ago to increase taxes on fuel if, and only if, the tax could be used only to pay for tax rebates. Our congress would spend that money faster than they could take it in and it would not go for the purpose it was voted for.

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Volt Designer Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

nasaman #119

This is hilarious. I’m not used to people talking about designs we’re currently working on. We just got out of a meeting CRFM people and yes its a big deal. They need a fixed amout of airflow in order for this thing to work and currently we’re not hitting the target. But don’t worry we have a couple of proposals in the works to address the problem. Yes most of the airflow will come from the lower grill but it will be funneled directly thru the radiators and kept from the engine compartment using a fairly complex set of baffles. Its all being worked out as we speak. We won’t let any of that drag producing airflow go to waste. Now I gotta get back to work….breaks over.

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noel park Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

#115 nuclearboy:

I hope so too.

#124 Kaido:

Consumer Report did a similar analysis and came up with basically the same conclusions you have. They calculated the life cycle costs and said that the cheapest car to run in the US is the Chevrolet Aveo(!). At $4/gal, the Prius came in about 31st. At $6/gal the Aveo was still cheapest, but the Prius moved up to about 19th.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Kaido @ 124:

Fortunately for most people, a car buying decision is more than just a cost analysis. It’s emotional.

Any cost analysis study ever done points this out clearly. That’s also why the Volt does not need to win the cost analysis game. Just be in the ball park.

Noel Park @ 127:

The Prius at about 20th? It sounds like cost analysis is getting less important to most buyers as well. Prius buyers routinely chastize me and say a car’s styling doesnt matter to them. But apparently “green cred” is the more important image they are trying to achieve. Just a different type of “styling” if you ask me. Oh, the hypocrisy!

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

#119 nasaman

How do you know for sure that #105 Volt Designer actually is a Volt designer? Are GM employees allowed to post anonymously on blogs? Are NASA employees allowed to post anonymously on blogs? In both cases, I doubt it.

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Jim I Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

MetrologyFirst #128 has it right!

Cost Analysis? How many of you have actually used that as a reason to buy a car? I sure have not, since I bought my first new car in 1971.

Some of you are turning into the same “bean counters” you claim to hate at GM!

Here are the real questions you need to ask yourself:

Do you want a plug in electric car that gets 40 miles AER, and then has a range extender to go another 300 miles or so, or not? Do you want to put your money where your mouth is to reduce the importation of oil for transportation, or not? Do you want to purchase this type of car from a USA manufacturer or not?

For my driving patterns, my gasoline consumption should drop by over 90% with a Volt. To me, that has value over the price of the car. If it doesn’t to you, that is fine. But that does not make it wrong for me.

If it is only about saving money, it appears that the best bet would be to go buy a three year old Aveo.

Except for Statik, do the rest of you live your lives this way? Where is the fun in that?????

The Volt is version one of pretty much an entirely new method of transportation. If you are not able to get one of these, and I may be in that group because of where I live, then it may have to be Gen-2 or a model from a competitor.

The only way to tell if this is the car for you is to sit in one, and look at the sticker price. And we have quite a bit of time before anyone is going to be able to do that…..

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jefro Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Phooey!

They can build a good pickup truck for $20K. It weighs almost the same as the Volt. Does it cost twice per pound?

They won’t make any friends with an expensive way to save money. The market for a $40K car isn’t there. Might as well sell my GM stock now. They’d be better off with a $15K car that gets 40mpg. I can buy a LOT of gas still with $25K.

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Kaido Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

#128 MetrologyFirst

I think “Green cred” is not about styling. If thanks to what car you choose your air stays cleaner and your gasoline consumption lower (which in turn will help to keep the prices lower), then it’s just simple self-interest.

Some people just think further ahead.

Cost analysis – same thing here actually. You just need to factor some more things in. Mine is a very simple one and only takes a few aspects into account.

From the realm of more complex matters – for example, how much does clean air cost? If you put a price on every gram of CO2 emitted you can factor that in. Even for Volt under 40 miles. Then you just have to see where the electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted producing it.

If you factor into US oil prices the cost of waging war over it (and the resulting economic problems, budget deficit and so on) you might arrive at an entirely different result.

The big difference with Volt is that it is first hope of a mainstream (or near-mainstream) car providing an OPTION of not polluting the environment at all by driving it, IF the electricity comes from a clean source (solar, wind – disregarding the CO2 emissions from infrastructure and maintenance etc).

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DaveP Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

#129 ThomDbhomb:

I understand what you’re saying, but the implication that companies by default restrict blogging is really scary.

Either we’re all unemployed or there must be a few companies that don’t fire their employees for posting anonymously on blogs. Or, alternately, many of us are about to become very surprised and unemployed. I hope not.
I suspect most companies don’t have specific rules except about disparaging the company so you get fired once you cross kind of a nebulous line. Sort of like downloading too much data through Comcast. “Unlimited until you hit the limit!”

nasaman:
Actually, I dislike fakey things stuck on cars just for looks. I even said so on the Boniface fastlane blog entry:
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/08/all_eyes_on_the_volt.html#comments

I hadn’t really thought about the technical aspects of it, much, but it may be even more complicated than it seems. For one thing, many of the systems won’t run much of the time (When in AER, the ICE won’t need any cooling, but the induction motor or batteries might, etc.) So, using a set of louvers to cool everthing or nothing might not be the best way to go. Using some adjustible internal baffles (or maybe fans) to direct air here or there only as necessary might be what they’re doing. I don’t know…

For the record, here were my comments on the fastlane:
Overall, I like the look, but I’m concerned about the fakey grill. Generally, fakey things stuck on a car (fake hood scoops, fake “power” bulges, etc.) seem like a good idea at first, but over time they just tend to look… fake.
If the car doesn’t need a grill, maybe it shouldn’t have a faked one. Of course, there’s something to be said for texturing, perhaps a solid sheet in the grill area would look weird. I haven’t seen enough of the car to really say in context.
Just something to think about.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

Kaido @ 132:

There are over 200 million cars in the US. Probably double that around the world. The fact is that if I chose to buy a Volt and no one else on my street does, the impact of the car is almost nil. How long will it take to replace those 200 million cars with electrics anyway? Especially if they all look like non-descript jelly beans.

The point is we need to start the sooner the better. And that means giving the fickle public a car that does not limit them, or label them, and gives all the benefits of the electric car experience. They need to have choices.

It is way more important for GM to offer 5 different E-flex vehicles ASAP than bellyaching over the “aerodynamics” of the first one.

The current gas price anxiety has played right into the Prius’s wheelhouse. A lot of people bought it because it was the only available option, in spite of the styling. That will change as the gas prices come down. What will be the motivation if gas goes to 3 bucks? Or lower? The financial arguments become much less compelling and the frenzied small car/Prius buying will go away. Those who gave up style for the sake of mpg won’t have to, at least until gas goes up again.

By that point, we will need E-flex choices. The Volt, a small SUV, a crossover, maybe a real small car, maybe a big car, a sports car, etc. All electric. Different ranges. Well styled to appeal to many.

GM designers should have been spending all this time working on other vehicles rather than tweaking the Volt design to get an extra 5 miles of electric range. As batteries get more powerful, the range issue will become less important anyway.

It’s just misplaced focus. They should have multiple car/crossover designs by next year sitting and waiting to be dropped onto an E-flex chassis. The fact that they may not be “aero-tuned” isn’t nearly as important as having them available and styled so people will like them, want them, and treat them like any other car.

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Ted in Fort Myers Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

Keep the head above water long enough to cash in on the Volt.
Take Care,
TED

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noel park Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

I’m just saying that Kaido’s numbers track with CR. It has been said here before that, if everyone’s car purchase was based on cold hard numbers, everyone would be driving an Aveo, and all of the other cars on the road would have ceased to exist. Not likely any time soon, IMHO.

If, as Kaido and our Air force retiree friend point out, all of the externalized costs of gasoline – war, health impacts of air pollution, environmental degradation from spills, drilling infrastructure, and so many others – were internalized, gasoline probably costs us at least $10/gal. At that point, the Prius and/or Volt start to look a lot more economically viable. Alas, this doesn’t happen very much in our society.

If you could see my fleet of gas guzzling Chevys, you would say that I have no room to talk, LOL. Although the S-10 has sure paid its way vs. my old Suburban. Anyway, even the worst of us sinners can see the light eventually.

“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”

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Tagamet Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Noel@136
re: “Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”

AMEN!

It’s never fails to amaze me how diverse our group is. Sooo many different motivations, all ending at the same goal – The Volt and asap !
Be well,
Tag

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Rockyroad Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Volt $38500 vs Compact car $18,000. Yaris ..Fit … etc … difference of $20500… Compact 32 MPG at 12,000 miles a year … Gas at $5.00 a gallon… $1875 a year for gas. $20,500/$1875 a year = break even time will be 10.6 years …

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:56 pm

#133 DaveP

Maybe you do get my point, but I’ll state it just to make sure. I’m not saying that companies restrict employees’ personal blogging. But, companies don’t want employees giving away company secrets.
GM brass probably wants to control the message and details that are getting out about the Volt. GM probably has public information people that deliver the company message. We’ve seen actual GM people being “cagey” about what they say. Not every employee would be authorized to give out Volt details. So, getting an anonymous e-mail from a person on the Volt design team seems suspect. It seems like such a person could lose their job if they gave out unauthorized information. I think someboby is messing with us. If not, they should verify that they are, in fact, a Volt designer.

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Lurtz Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

#120 Joe:

You could at least have the decency to prefix your strawman with “Shorter Lurtz:” or something.

Just sayin’.

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Tagamet Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

Rockeyroad@138
“Volt $38500 vs Compact car $18,000. Yaris ..Fit … etc … difference of $20500… Compact 32 MPG at 12,000 miles a year … Gas at $5.00 a gallon… $1875 a year for gas. $20,500/$1875 a year = break even time will be 10.6 years …”

Zero dollars sent abroad for oil: PRICELESS.
Be well,
Tag

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
August 21st, 2008 at 1:41 am

Zero dollars sent abroad for oil: PRICELESS.

WRONG Tag,

Try 700 BILLION per year. http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html
And, I’m not sure how much longer I want to keep lending you lot the money to buy it.

Nasaman, I think you are losing perspective here.
For $400 you could get the ‘dents’ repaired at your local panel beater’s and the paintwork colour matched. Just a thought.

Probably improve the CD by a couple of points as well. lol.

Rockyroad In my case; NO plug, NO sale.

A Prius, at half the price, with a 10 mile AER range, will require extensive use, of one of Tagamet’s couches. lol

Finally, I have to say, I really like the new shape, hope the Prius doesn’t come off better, cheaper, more range, etc.

Q: How do you spot the Volt wannabe?
A: They’re the ones driving a PHEV Prius with a sad face.

(Quote)
Kubel Says:
August 21st, 2008 at 2:45 am

$37,500 for a Volt is too much. At 20% genset usage, using electricity rates for my area ($0.1311/kWh) and current average gas prices in the US ($3.699/gal), the Volt must be $27,076.65 to break even with the current generation Prius when it comes to overall cost (initial vehicle cost plus energy cost) when considering a 120,000 mile lifetime.

Prius Initial Cost: $22.160
Cost per Mile: $0.08041
Lifetime Energy Cost: $9,649.57
Total Cost: $31,809.57

Volt Initial Cost: $37,500
Cost per Mile: $0.03944
Lifetime Energy Cost: $4,732.91
Total Cost: $42,232.91

You would think the Volt would become a much better deal with more expensive gas. But at $37,500, it’s not until gas prices are around $8.60/gal that the Volt breaks even with the Prius.

How much do we expect gas to be by 2012? It will most likely be more than it is today. But $8.60/gal? Let’s pick a number between todays price and the magic number for the Volt to be affordable. Let’s assume gas will be $6.15/gal. How much will the Volt need to be at that price to break even with the Prius? $32,294.09. GM knows that we can expect a $5,000 tax credit toward the Volt (if either candidate keeps their promise). That brings the price to $37,294,09, almost exactly what Wagoner predicts.

So I think GM is counting on a $5,000 tax credit AND $6/gal gas. That’s the only way people will buy the Volt at that price.

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Go GM Says:
August 21st, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Where is this $35k to $40k coming from? I thought a $20k Malibu – 2.4L+1.4L+Electrical Motor +$10k battery is about $30k.

I think GM want to pocket the Tax credit money. Or, this is a collector’s item for Jay Leno, not for average Joe. No wonder they are making only 10k units for the 1st year production.

These shortsighted top people in GM are really pissing away an optunity to do something good, for GM, for average people and for the country.

Take my name off the waiting list, if the price is not below $30k before rebate.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
August 21st, 2008 at 2:05 pm

If you have a good number you may want to keep it, foolio, even if YOU can’t afford to purchase(that’s a hint son).

Get an all electric motor cycle XM3500Li for $4k to tide you over; 50 mph and 80 mile range.

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jbsmoky Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 9:32 pm

Here we go again. US auto makers just don’t get it. People who want a car that uses little or no fossil fuel and is chear to operate don’t want to pay $35 K plus for it. We already have cars that get 35 to 60 mpg that cost between $25 and $35 K. Where is the incentive for buying the Volt.

Advise for GM : Go ahead and produce the Volt at $40 K. You need to keep top management happy. But GM want to be a leader produce another model that sells fo $17 to 28 K.

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jefro Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:39 pm

How much less if I buy it without the gas motor?

I’d like to remove it anyway.

(Quote)
Joe Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 6:27 am

jbsmoky Says: @148

That’s why GM is coming out with the Cruze. If you can not afford the Volt, buy the Cruze. GM is in business to make money. Sorry, if the Volt is too expensive to start with but it is no different than any other new high tech product like flat screen TV’s for example.

(Quote)
Joe Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 6:32 am

jefro Says: @149

If your that smart, remove the engine. It’s your after you’ve bought it. I for one would not want to worry if I going to make it home when the traffic is heavy and,,,,,, for a million other reasons.

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Herm Perez Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 7:01 am

Here is an example of a pure electric car, the Mitsubishi i-Miev..

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/08/mitsubishi-mo-1.html#more

it uses a similar battery pack to the Volt, a 16kwh pack, has a range of 100 miles and does not have a range extender gas engine. It is a much smaller car and it will sell for $27,500

I would love to have one!

The basic i-Miev car in gas powered form would be about $10k, a basic Volt sized car maybe $20k??, so about $10k difference.. so the Volt at about $37k is about right. Eventually the battery cost will come down.. if they make enough of them.

here is more detail:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/mitsubishi-moto.html

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Herm Perez Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 7:15 am

more details:

uses 47kw motor, top speed 81mph, range 100 miles, uses a gear box and differential to drive the rear wheels.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/03/mitsubishi_deli.html

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Stuart Waugh Says:
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:12 pm

I own a 2008 Prius which I bought in January. With all the luxuries you could get it ran $28,000 ($300 below invoice) – the GPS and leather were insisted upon by my wife, and I’m glad I sprung for them. I got the Toyota after giving up on GM producing a car that met my quality small car and green fuel desires. I had 9 years of GM card built up. The Volt puts them back in the game for me.

The early adopters will be people like me, double 6-digit income professional families, West or East coast types. $35-40 K is OK, especially if options like leather are available and GPS standard. The key will be to look distinct and to have good quality interior materials. Most of us live in Luxury SUV neighborhoods. The demographic is the same as the Prius.

BTW my listed price to pay was $38,000, but deposit was small, $1200. I should rethink the deposit, as $2500-3000 is more realistic.

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