The road to the launch of the Volt is paved with many milestones. The first big one was delivery of the first lithium-ion battery packs, which took place Oct 31, 2007. The next was the running of the first early development vehicles, using those packs, which took place in mid-April.
Now GM is on the dawn of the next milestone, the running of the first true mule, which is a developmental Chevy Volt that contains all of its production-intent components. GM expects to have 50 of these running by the end of this year. I had a chance to discuss this juncture with Andrew Farah who is the Chevy Volt’s chief engineer.
What is the status of the Volt’s development at this point?
Everything is going along exactly as planned. We’re on time for late 2010.
All of the schedule milestones are being met without difficulty?
Yes everything is moving just they way it should. We’ve got a milestone that’s called ‘styling freeze’ coming up in just a few weeks. We’re working very carefully with the design studios to finalize the interior and exterior details.
We’re going through a number of aerodynamic confirmation activities over the next couple of weeks to make sure we’ve got it just the way we want it to be from an aerodynamics perspective.
We are in the middle of building our next vintage of development vehicles that we’ll have later in the year. Next week I hope to go through the final check out of the first one in the batch.
It’s nearly assembled then?
Yes. Next week we’ll go in and do what we refer to as ‘lab check.’ We will make sure that its been built as we had desired. Typically there’s one or two small issues and we find them and we fix them and there’s time in the schedule to do so.
The parts in the next vintage then are more refined and similar to the final car than the ones you’ve been running so far?
Yes. These will have a full production-intent underbody. They will have production-intent battery packs and design. They will have a production-intent powertrain unit which you know consists of the engine, the motors, their packaging and the power electronics. Yes there are still refinements that will continue, but at this point its production-intent from the skin-in. The outside still doesn’t look like a Volt, and the inside doesn’t look like a Volt. We’re just finishing styling freeze as these vehicles are being built, so we’re still a ways away form all those details.
Will these developmental vehicles continue to have the late-model Malibu skins?
No. We’re using a different donor vehicle. Nothing Volt-like.
Have you learned a lot more about the power control systems such as for example the turning on and off of the generator so that they will now be more refined in the new batch of mules?
We’ve been working those basic issues in the current developmental vehicles. We’ve learned a lot but these don’t have all the production intent aspects of the systems. So while we were able to develop the control theory and those kinds of things, we still have to go back in even with this next vintage of vehicles and re-tune some of that. It’s just part of the natural process.
As an example when this new vintage comes out of lab check it still won’t be as good operationally as the current Mali-volts are. It will take us a few weeks of development to get them up to that level of refinement. But then because these have so much more in them and are so much more production intent, they will quickly exceed the levels of refinement of the Mali-Volts.
[Note: Volt chief designer Bob Boniface will be taking questions in a live online chat from 3-4 EST on GMnext.com ]
This entry was posted on Monday, August 18th, 2008 at 8:55 pm and is filed under Original GM-Volt Interviews, Prototypes. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:01 pm)two words… electric corvette.
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:07 pm)donor vehicle..thinks…they can have my subaru legacy if they like…wink…wink…as long as i can have it back when they are finished…
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:07 pm)I’d love to have an electric corvette… WOW!
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:15 pm)Lyle …good interview. I am glad to hear things are coming along a planned.
It sounds like a September unveiling of the car may be a stretch.
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:18 pm)It’s coming along faster and faster……I’ll be ready for one in 2010 for sure!
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:26 pm)>> ’styling freeze’
I used to use that in high school, but I switched to mousse in my Junior year.
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:28 pm)From the article: “They will have a production-intent powertrain unit which you know consists of the engine, the motors, their packaging and the power electronics.”
————————————————————————————-
Is this a typo, or is there more than one electric motor?
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:42 pm)USA! USA! USA!
Aug 18th, 2008 (9:50 pm)That seamless integration of the generator start up is begining to look like the big challenge.
The engineers will crack it and the methodology becomes GM’s.
Good on them!
Aug 18th, 2008 (10:10 pm)>> Is this a typo, or is there more than one electric motor?
Of course, there will be two MG (Motor/Generator) devices.
MG1 will primarily serve as the generator, but will also be a motor for starting the engine.
MG2 will primarily serve as the source of propulsion, but will also be a generator when braking.
Now do you understand why I continue to stress the need for educational materials and permanent links for more info? That’s an excellent question and you will be far from the last person to ever ask it…
Aug 18th, 2008 (10:13 pm)#7 Dave G #10 john1701a
Interesting question about the motors and great answer. Sort of like the Prius which also has MG1 and MG2 though I think the Prius uses both for regen and starting. Different system of course.
Aug 18th, 2008 (10:22 pm)Dave G. #7
“Is this a typo, or is there more than one electric motor?”
*** *** ***
Motor is an engineering generic term for anything that either produces electricity or receives electricity and produces power. So a “motor” is either an electric motor or a generator (alternator). One is just the reverse of the other. Therefore the AC induction motor and the generator hooked to the ICE in the Volt are both generically “motors”.
Aug 18th, 2008 (10:26 pm)Dave G #7:
I think the second motor is the generator on the ICE. Generators and motors are the same animal from an engineering perspective. The traction motor becomes a generator during regenerative braking simply by reversing the phase of the input waveforms, causing the current to flow in reverse and rotational energy to be extracted from the wheels.
Obviously, there are different design considerations for the two motors. The traction motor will provide higher peak power output and handle substantially more dynamic loads. But I imagine they’re both polyphase induction motors with squirrel-cage rotors.
Aug 18th, 2008 (10:52 pm)Lyle,
Thank you for your website. I visit it daily. During your next interview opportunity, do you think you could ask about the environmental systems which will control/maintain the battery’s operating temperature ?
Thanks
Aug 18th, 2008 (11:11 pm)Just watched an hour-long interview with Rick Wagoner on Thirteen/PBS on Charlie Rose, on the fate of GM, and, among others, the Volt. Very interesting, and recommend it to everybody. The current estimated price for the Volt is mid-to-high thirties, as long speculated on this forum. Tomorrow night, the second in the series, will be Bob Lutz interview (11-12pm EST), and I expect to get much more about the Volt.
Aug 18th, 2008 (11:24 pm)Yeah, I don’t see why the generator can’t start the ICE and then switch over to be a generator again. It will certainly be big enough.
Aug 18th, 2008 (11:39 pm)Sounds like all you guys have wacked into the hype, gas prices are coming down again with the drill here drill now poop, I think its all over and its back to the norm, big oil,big cars,big ‘smog. Ya think it could be the reason ev’s aren’t out in the US yet ?
Aug 18th, 2008 (11:53 pm)Show #17
We obviously can’t lose focus. Our energy strategy is a little like GM’s going concern. There is just too much incentive to go for the low hanging fruit or roll in the path of least resistance. Drilling now and keeping oil prices low is just a part so that we can prosper in the near term, but we can never lose focus of the fact that RE electric vehicles are our future. We’ll work toward cellulosic ethanol as the fuel that puts the big “RE” in range extension.
Aug 18th, 2008 (11:55 pm)I’m sure there will be 1 gas engine and 2 electric “motors”.
One of the motors will draw electrical current (i.e. consume electrical energy) to primarily drive the wheels of the car. This motor will also slow the car down and generate electricity fo charge the batteries during regenerative braking.
The other motor will primarily be used as a generator to produce electricity for the first motor (after the battery’s charge has been depleted) and maintain the batteries at some minimum level of charge (say 25-30% or so). This motor will normally be driven by the gas engine to generate the electricity, but will also have a secondary job as the starter motor for the gas engine.
Sound right? Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive has 2 electric motors for similar purposes, but it seems a lot more complicated than the Volt. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive . Some of the links at this site are particularly interesting because they provide some neat graphics to show how it all works together.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:10 am)Technically, the windshield wipers will be motor-driven. (I know, I know; he didn’t mean the windshield wiper motors).
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:11 am)Everyone – Reread that quote…
“They will have a production-intent powertrain unit which you know consists of the engine, the motors, their packaging and the power electronics.”
Do you see where it lists the engine, and then it lists the “motors?” So I think the question that if this is a typo or not is still rather valid. This leads me to believe there will be multiple electric motors for propulsion?
Could be!
Edit – After reading more comments I see how the engine may not include the generator part.. so there are 2 motors there.. O-Kay. Maybe not 2 electric motors to drive the wheels then, but still anything could happen at this point right?
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:35 am)# 20: Technically, the windshield wipers will be motor-driven. (I know, I know; he didn’t mean the windshield wiper motors).
Well OK, let’s count the electric “motors”:
-power (propel!) the car
-generate electricity
-front wiper
-back wiper
-A/C compressor
-a couple of fan motor no doubt
-gas pump (maybe)
-Let’s add a couple of actuators (maybe)
-4 motors to raise/lower the windows
-CD load/unload motor (or are CDs out of fashion?)
-maybe a hard disk or two somewhere?
-sunroof
-rear liftgate maybe?
So, 15-19 and counting … what did I forget? Anyway, we’re all here for the first two!
But, add in other electrial loads (lights, radio, DVD, my kid’s computer, etc.) and you can see why the designers have to be very careful about the electrical components! All that and 40 miles AER!
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:44 am)I don’t care if gas goes back to $1 a gallon.
Just like we don’t dispose of household trash in the backyard incinerator anymore; just like we don’t use lead in housepaint anymore; just like we we’ve stopped using asbestos, PCBs, DDT, or CFCs; some things just belong in the past.
Our kids may grow up to cities with blue skies and shake their heads when we tell them how hazy the air used to be. “How stupid,” they’ll say. Just like how stupid it was to dispose of trash by burning it in your backyard…
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:56 am)Lurtz # 23
We all have to worry about the “path of least resistance” and acquiescence. OPEC is counting on BOTH. This is why WE NEED a LEADER and an ENERGY PLAN. Our energy independence won’t happen w/o both. Long live the VOLT, because if the consumer drives this it will only take longer, but it will happen with a little courage and perseverance.
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:29 am)I wonder if the Mali-Volt mules are much heavier than the Volt will be. Or perhaps they remove weight from the test mules to get them as close to Volts target weight for accurate test data results.
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:00 am)Read this NY Times article about big oil- looks like it won’t stay cheap in the long term.
The large US firms are losing influence around the globe. Geopolitical “Peak oil” is near. Oil is available but we can’t have it unless we give them all of the profits. This will create a huge supply problem. Get used to it folks, oil is going to become a very expensive commodity.
We have to make the move from oil to electricity- and now. GO GM, I am on the list.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/business/19oil.html?hp
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:06 am)Thanks Lyle,
Great interview. I’m more and more confident that it is a good decision not to buy a new ICE car before the Volt will be in the dealerships.
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:54 am)#17 Showmemike
“think it could be the reason ev’s aren’t out in the US yet ?”
Where are they out?
And I assume that you don’t count the ZAPs and GEMs etc? (either of which could works as our 2nd car)
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:42 am)While they may well have been talking MG1 + MG2 in the traditional (meaning in the Prius or Two-Mode context) we don’t want to toss out the possibility it could use wheel motors.
Rear mounted wheel motors were used on the GM fuel-cell concept photos published on this site last year.
Also last year (this is important) Continental AG bought out Siemens VDO – the company who developed eCorner, an integrated suspension/electric brake/wheel motor.
YouTube video (2006):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y
I may be wrong, but it’s something to consider.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:00 am)PS: it was the E-Flex concept at Shanghai 2007 that had rear-mounted wheel motors.
[url="http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/08/detroit-2008-cadillac-provoq-e-flex-fuel-cell-concept/"]Link….[/url]
“The electricity generated by the fuel cell is distributed to a 70 kW co-axial drive system for the front wheels and individual, 40 kW wheel hub motors on the rear wheels, giving the Cadillac Provoq its all-wheel-drive traction and great driving dynamics. Its 0-60 mph (approximately 100 km/h) speed of 8.5 seconds is a more than 30-percent improvement over the previous-generation fuel cell system and with instantaneous torque to the wheels, it feels even faster. Provoq has a top speed of 100 mph (160 km/h). “
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:04 am)PS: the Provoq E-Flex fuel cell concept is what used two GM built wheel motors in the rear;
http://tinyurl.com/2cyekz
and if I remember correctly the Volt fuel cell concept did as well.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:26 am)Speculation on ‘The Big3 volt’
http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2008/08/chrysler-ford-and-chevy-volt.html
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:49 am)Nice interview Lyle. Good job as always.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:52 am)Ted in Fort Myers
I wish you and your family good health and safety while Fay travels over your heads. Stay safe.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:56 am)The lexicographic irregulars see the phrase “next vintage of development vehicles” and grow wide eyed. Unless Mr Farah is being interviewed over dinner, there is a strange use of the word “vintage”. [Normally it's used in connection with wine.]
is this a term of art in auto manufacturing?
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:24 am)# 29 DocM, I was thinking the same thing. I always thought that wheel motors would be the best choice all along. You don’t have the mechanical linkage and loss with wheel motors (albeit rather small). Also if you have 4 wheel motors, you could very easily have an AWD car and dividing the power up over 4 wheels would ease the requirements on them. One problem I do see however is that wheel mounted motors generally don’t have the speed range and really suck the battery down the faster you go (almost exponential). With a single EM, you can then go through a transmission and maximize your efficiency.
Personally I doubt they are using wheel motors, but if they could get around the speed limitations of current wheel mounted motors I think it would be a better design.
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:41 am)LYLE,
WHEN DO YOU GET TO DRIVE THE MULE?
I wanna know
.
…
……
……..
I wanna know NOW.
/throws toys out of cot.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:07 am)Lyle — Excellent and informative interview.
Mr Farah said they project was on time. He should know.
However, knowing what we know, I think there will be no Volts for sale in 2010 and quite possibly not in 2011.
Here I will be happy to be proven wrong. We will see.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:10 am)Its all speculation!
I thought when they were polling about 1 or 2 charge ports, the vehicles were going through full tests.
Now all they have is a malibu with a genset in it. Big deal..i can do that in my shop in about 2 weeks.
The weight, aerodynamics ect are totally different..how are they getting performance figures??
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:13 am)Good Work Lyle.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:31 am)#25 Stew — on why the shift from Malibu mules
In addition to weight, there may be dimensional aspects to the new skin. That is, if the assembled underbody has specific length, width or height as fixed dimensions, the mule body will have to fit these.
Previously with the Malibu, there were only engine components. Now there are assemblies, apparently. That’s good progress and may require adjustments in size.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:37 am)“Mali-Volts”
:0)
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:37 am)I have read that the problem with Wheel motors is the weight. Putting the motor up on the frame allows the wheels to be lighter and the motor does not have to deal directly (without protection of suspension) with absorbing the impact of a 6 inch deep pot hole at 65 mph.
Also,
On the question of why aren’t electrics out yet.
Lets face it. Electrics are not as good as gas vehicles from a transportation point of view (ignoring any environmental concerns). A gallon of gas has over 30Kwh of energy content and you can carry it in a plastic jug if you need to. You can fuel the car in a few minutes and with gas below $1 per gallon in 1999, electrics really did not make sense to develop.
Now that it seems clear that gas will remain high ($$), electrics make more sense. Capitalism seems to be working. Demand has shifted and the products will follow.
California was ahead of the curve and tried to force zero emissions (ie: electrics) but ultimately decided to change course since the EV1 was about 80K per unit at the time to produce and, although cool, it really could not compete with a gas powered vehicle on basic transportation metrics (ie: range, payload, ease of refueling).
I here the “did you see who killed the electric car movie” nuts coming out of the bushes now. The truth is, the CA legislators pulled the plug on the mandate and subsidies which was the only way to keep electrics going at the time. Oil companies and GM don’t vote in the California legislature. No matter how you slice it, the legislators made the decision and they had access to all of the facts at the time (they basically decided that electrics were not worth the premium at the time).
The good news is that GM looks like they will produce an electric for about 40K and batteries will drop in price.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:38 am)#29
DocM DocM Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 3:42 am
“While they may well have been talking MG1 + MG2 in the traditional (meaning in the Prius or Two-Mode context) we don’t want to toss out the possibility it could use wheel motors.
Rear mounted wheel motors were used on the GM fuel-cell concept photos published on this site last year.
Also last year (this is important) Continental AG bought out Siemens VDO – the company who developed eCorner, an integrated suspension/electric brake/wheel motor.
YouTube video (2006):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y
I may be wrong, but it’s something to consider.”
*******************************************************
Good observation DocM DocM.
I believe you are correct! If hub motors are now perfected enough, it makes sense for GM to use them. They are the future, otherwise the fuel cell cars would not be using them. Also, on the assembly line they will be more cost effective. I bet GM will use them on the Volt.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:41 am)#34 RB
I think the word “vintage” is just a jocular way of saying “version” or perhaps meaning “iteration”. People make up words or apply new usage to old words all the time. Back when I was in the computer chip business the term “real estate” referred to the area of a chip either consumed or available, depending on context. of a structure. Someone used the term and others understood what it meant and adopted it. It may have fallen out of favor by now. It’s been awhile.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:49 am)#16 TerryK “Yeah, I don’t see why the generator can’t start the ICE and then switch over to be a generator again. It will certainly be big enough.”
Keep in mind that the propulsion motor will be connected to the wheels and the ICE will not. Or to put it another way they will not be connected together so there is no way for the propulsion motor to mechanically turn the ICE over to start it. The ICE will need a starter of its own.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:49 am)I doubt that wheel motors will be used. Rolling resistance is an important factor in moving a vehicle efficiently. That.s why to bicycles have such light wheels. If you put the motor on the wheel it is on the other side of the suspension. Hit a pot hole and the whole motor will have to respond instead of a much lighter wheel and tire. The springs and shocks will have to be pretty beefy to handle that. Have a blow out and you may be looking at replacing a motor.
Aug 19th, 2008 (8:22 am)#44 maharguitar — on the use of “vintage”
Whatever its origin, it is a notable usage. I can see that it is different from “generation”, which here has a different meaning, or “cohort”, which may not be as understandable to those involved.
“Real estate” seems to have become very widely used in the world of chips. I wonder if “vintage” is the same way, in automotive. It seems that most every field creates some words of its own. Part of the vitality of English is that it incorporates so many of them, and then extends them to other things, e.g., “window”, with its now primary usage as a rectangle on a screen holding text or a picture.
(As you know, we “lexicographic irregulars” do not make judgments on words, we just watch for them.)
Aug 19th, 2008 (8:58 am)Just wanted to remind everyone about the live chat with Bob Boniface today from 3:00 to 4:00 pm EDT on gmnext.com
All are welcome to attend, just go to http://www.gmnext.com/LiveChat.aspx and register on the site with your e-mail address.
Unfortunately, due to a prior engagement, I won’t be able to attend.
Can someone please take notes for me? Just kidding.
Aug 19th, 2008 (8:58 am)FWIW, there is a full page Volt add in the Money section of USA TODAY.
Aug 19th, 2008 (9:10 am)“Wheel motors” would be a staggeringly bad idea because of the enormous unsprung weight… unsprung weight is the weight that is not “protected” by the suspension; typically the wheels, tires and brakes. Lots of unsprung weight causes the wheels to float over bumps and dips, causing the tires to lose traction. Several performance cars have tried moving the rear brakes next to the differential where the rear suspension was independant. This was done specifically to improve handling by reducing the polar moment of the brake mass, but the technique lost favor because it’s too hard to cool the brakes when they’re tucked in the undercarriage.
In addition to these issues, wheel motors would be a really bad idea on an electric car because the wire feeding power to the motor would have to be extremely flexible (think of the hydraulic lines that feed the brakes). A cable that can handle the amperage necessary to drive an electric car and flexible enough to prevent binding the suspension would be quite an engineering feat, not to mention a major point of failure. I suspect the Volt’s power bus from the battery to the motor is going to be something along the lines of a rigid coaxial tube. Carries a lot of power with minimal inductance loss, light weight, not a point of failure.
I’m suprised GM elected to go with a FWD layout. I would have thought that the optimum layout would have been engine up front, battery below the passenger compartment, electric motor driving the rear wheels (through an independent rear suspension) and positioned where the differential would be. Everything would be low and positioned on the car’s longitudinal axis.
4WD would be that layout with an additional electric motor positioned between the front wheels and driving those wheels through an independent suspension.
Aug 19th, 2008 (9:45 am)Statik, nothing here to moan about. Sorry.
Lyle: I like this guy. Interview him more often. Seems to give clear, real info and less corprospeak. Nicely done.
Aug 19th, 2008 (9:53 am)“What is the status of the Volt’s development at this point?”
“Everything is going along exactly as planned. We’re on time for late 2010.”
I’ve read this over several times and I can’t find any weasel words. Either they are on schedule or he’s outright lying.
Aug 19th, 2008 (9:58 am)#50 ThomC,
You forgot to mention the argument that wheel motors would make many small accidents into major expenses.
But even still, I’ve heard some good things about wheel motors. I even vaguely recall someone talking about a separate motor just above each wheel. Maybe this would address the unsprung weight issue.
Also, induction electric motors are relatively small and light. For example, the 250 HP electric motor in the Tesla Roadster weighs only 70 pounds and is about the size of a watermelon. The Volt only needs about half that horse power. Now divide that by 4, since each wheel would only need 1/4 of the total horse power, and you would only need 1/8 of the Tesla motor power in each wheel. I’m sure it wouldn’t be 1/8 the weight, but it could be pretty light. In addition, hub motors may be able to offer more direct resistance in regenerative braking and ABS, so the brake rotors might be a little smaller. So wheel hub motors may not be that heavy.
At any rate, we know the Volt will have only 1 motor connected to the wheels, and that’s good enough to get things started.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:11 am)I don’t know if anyone has said this but, I think they will be using the Cruz for the mules. If they are using body pans, then I think they will be Cruzes, and I doubt you will be able to tell they are ER-ev’s.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:14 am)#10 john1701a,
#11 DonC,
#12 Grizzly,
#13 butters,
Thanks for clearing this up. I didn’t realize they were calling the generator a “motor” as well, but that makes sense.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:18 am)Here’s another question: Has anyone heard from GM as to whether the cruise control will use regenerative braking on downhill grades in order to maintain speed?
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:21 am)#54 MarkH
That just may be the case. The Cruze will be the closest body type to the Volt and will be a better representation than the Malibu. The body does exist since we have seen spy shots. However, Farah did say the skin was “nothing Volt-like”…
Spy shots of Cruze.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=130017
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:21 am)#50 ThomC #53 DaveG
Great points about the hub motors. Another complicating factor is that the wheels and suspension will be far more important for the Volt than for a standard ICE car. There are two big issues for car range. One is aerodynamic drag, which everyone talks about. The second is tire rolling resistance, which no on talks about, despite it being the more important of the two at lower speeds.
The EV1 minimized rolling resistance by inflating the low rolling resistance tires to 50 psi, which you can’t do in an ordinary car because the ride would be too hard. (Racing cars are of course a completely different matter). The GM engineers solved that with a special suspension system that minimized the harshness of the ride.
I’m not familiar with the suspension used on the EV1 but I’d think generally the Volt suspension will be challenge enough without the added complications of hub motors. No doubt GM will experiment later.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:22 am)Hello my name is Bryan Brooks I’ve been razed in Chevy all my life. I am wondering why GM cant force a hydro revolution. If GM has a good hydro motor it could lets say make a contract with lets say Valero or tom thumb gas’s. to start adding the fuel that is supported by hydro electric motors. GM could also introduce a hydro replacement motor for all GM cars and trucks at discount prices for mid to low income family’s. GM could also do this for companies like ups, Dr pepper, and any major transport based companies .Plus the first auto maker to make a stable hydro infrastructure could make millions over night even at low profit prices. It would help stabilize the economy with thee’s gas prices. GM is loosing to four en economy cars. Not to mention a hydro electric heavy duty truck that could beet any gas and or desle truck
could make a fortune. Not to mention save the environment.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:35 am)#59 Bryan Says: “Hello my name is Bryan Brooks I’ve been razed in Chevy all my life.”
————————————————————————————–
Definition
razed
verb [T]
to completely destroy a city, building, etc:
“The town was razed to the ground in the bombing raid – not a building was left standing.”
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:46 am)Progress is obviously progress, but I’m certain that Statik will chime in.
I’m still betting on a July 4th, 2010 release.
Be well,
Tag
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:49 am)Dave G,
I thought we had enough spelling/grammar chat yesterday – guess not. You could have at least provided the correct term, “raised”. It’s a learning opportunity.
Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
Be well,
Tag
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:01 am)#59.
I hope you were being funny with that spelling….because while typo’s happen..that was god aweful….
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:10 am)My response to: ThomC Says@50
You are absolutely right. I know I posted that GM would likely use wheel motors on the Volt but after I posted my views, I gave it more thoughts against it, and with your post, you brought out excellent reasons why they would not. The constant flexing of the high current wires came to mind and after reading your post, you mention many other excellent reason. Thanks for setting me straight.
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:12 am)#15 Constantin:
Mid to high thirties? Before tax credits? Sounds like progress. Thanks.
#15 Showmemike & #18 Grizzly:
Yeah, if we let them fool us again with the temporary price retreat scam, then shame, shame on us. The Kingston Trio used to say, when they came back for an encore:
“As you can tell by the speed of our return, that exit was fraudulent.”
#62 Tagamet:
LOL. If people got wound up over typos yesterday, that should really give them something to get excited about. I think that we all date ourselves by being embarrassed by our typos!
Even so, I am bound to say that I really appreciate the edit feature. As someone said yesterday, I can’t count the number of times I have hit the submit box, just as the penny dropped on another typo. The opportunity to go back and fix them is appreciated. They still slip by, but far fewer. What happened to the spell check however? You should see the tattered old paperback Webster I have here on my desk now, LMAO.
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:18 am)my gramer is not imporantant its my vews
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:21 am)No problum I just hope my idea is herd
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:24 am)Noel Park@95
“Dating ourselves” is being soooo kind (g). BTW, I’ve switched over to Mozilla’s Firefox BECAUSE it has an automatic spell checker. And I still have to go back and edit. Sigh. As they say, “Don’t sweat the petty stuff, and don’t pet the sweaty stuff” (Did I say that out loud).
Be well,
Tag
PS But being a little “Long in the tooth”, look at all the inventions we’ve witnessed – Dirt, the wheel, the Volt…
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:25 am)More good news, Lyle. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:48 am)#61 Tag
“Progress is obviously progress, but I’m certain that Statik will chime in. I’m still betting on a July 4th, 2010 release.”
I’m going to let this thread stand as is actually, lol.
I’m out here lurking, but unless the ‘chit-chat’ has something of interest or there is something of value I find up somewhere else, I’m just going to lay low.
It’s hard to keep a real keen interest for months on end, hehe, so I’m taking a little breather, 5 posts a day…max. (=
As for ‘betting on July 4th, 2010,’ I am more than interested in making a wager with you on this…heck, I’ll even give you odds on top.
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:56 am)Random GM talking head, who is also Arnold Schwarzenegger cousin, drones on about some stuff we already know, but there it is anyway for your enjoyment.
Topics include Volt overnight charging, the battery and a little bragging about coming to market first (what?).
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-76-debunking-the-debunker/
Other news:
A company even more optimistic on timelines than GM, (but with perhaps slightly more street cred than GM), Tesla says they are going to be yet another car on the road in 2010, this time a ‘city car’
http://www.nextautos.com/tesla-working-with-other-manufacturers-on-electrics
/doubtful
Aug 19th, 2008 (11:59 am)#59 Bryan,
I only pointed out that typo because it was humorous. LOL.
Anyway, if you are talking about hydrogen and fuel cells, this has all been covered before. The bottom line is that fuel cells are a big scam by the oil companies. The source of hydrogen will be natural gas. The well-to-wheel emissions of the Honda fuel cell vehicle (FCX) is worse than a Prius. More info here:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf
(pages 3 & 4)
and here:
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
That’s why they call them Fool Sells. They are meant to deceive us.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:15 pm)im 22 and spelling ant my thing not affended
I saw a news clip it said somthing about VW having 2 working protatypes but thay were wating for the infastrcur my spelling sucks i know (public schools for you) anways all im comcerned about is the enviromunt and my walet more people would by cars of any kind if it was cheeper to drive and had some good get go. hell iv herd of some car that just runs on water. Im tierd of thease oil prices. The power is in the auto makers hands and I hope GM gets there first.
Heck who nows maby thay could get saort from companies like UPS. thayd jump at a chance to get rid of thees gas prices.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:15 pm)Bryan #66: “my gramer is not imporantant its my vews”
I normally do not get involved in grammer threads, but this quote forces that issue. In your eight words, there are eight mistakes! This hardly counts as a simple typo…………..
That type of comment is a “New Age” type of thinking, and I am sorry, but I truly disagree with you.
The reason we have grammer and all of the associated rules, is so we can understand each other’s written comments. Proper spelling and punctuation allow that to happen. If I can not understand the idea you are trying to convey to me, then anything you are trying to say is lost. Also, it makes you appear to be lacking any basic education, which will make most people ignore any ideas you have, no matter how valid.
But what bothers me the most is that when it was pointed out to you that your post was hard to read and comprehend, your attitude was that you should not have to try to improve youself. That is scary.
If that makes me an old fuddy, so be it.
Finally, as an employer, I can tell you that if I receive a resume with spelling mistakes, it is tossed out. My impression is that if you can not take the time to check your own resume, then what kind of accuracy could I expect of you as an employee?
JMHO
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:16 pm)#52 marharguitat notes ““What is the status of the Volt’s development at this point?”
“Everything is going along exactly as planned. We’re on time for late 2010.”
I’ve read this over several times and I can’t find any weasel words. Either they are on schedule or he’s outright lying.”
As we do not have a copy of the ‘schedule’ that he is talking about, there’s no way to know for sure. We do know that some items are late (for example, the battery contract). They also are late in the Easter driving exercises. Perhaps Mr Farah’s comments are only about a sub-schedule for events he is supervising and refelct his thinking that all the rest will come together by the end of 2010.
GM does have some fudging points here, in that they have not made a public commitment to any particular number being for sale in 2010 (e.g. maybe one for Mr Wagoner, one for Mr Lutz, one for Mr. Farah, one for Mr. Bonniface and one for Lyle
In fairness, GM has emphasized a slow rollout, which could be consistent with very small numbers in the first 6 months, perhaps only a handful from November 2010 through April 2011.
As more nearly a commitment, Mr Lutz has talked about 10K being made during the whole 2011 model year and that could be true even if the year is back-loaded.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:21 pm)#50 ThomC
“Wheel Motors” are not likely with the Volt v1. Nevertheless it will happen sooner or later.
Volvo, for example, is working on an electric car with “in-wheel” motors. The last report I read indicated the challenge was more software than engineering.
I suspect GM is also working on “wheel motors” even though I have no details. Perhaps we’ll see them first with the Cadillac Provoq and other models later.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:21 pm)#71 Statik
“A company even more optimistic on timelines than GM, (but with perhaps slightly more street cred than GM), Tesla says they are going to be yet another car on the road in 2010, this time a ‘city car’”
That is the second one they will release? lol because I think only the first has been delivered…
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:32 pm)Not sure if it was made clear in previous posts so I wanted to add something. Placing motors in the wheels increases the UNSPRUNG MASS. For a smoother ride, the unsprung mass should be kept low. The more mass on the “other” side of the spring means the wheel won’t respond as quickly to bumps in the road which will reduce the smoothness of the ride. For most people, AWD isn’t a big deal and so they prefer a smooth ride. For those who prefer AWD and don’t mind sacrificing ride, hopefully some new models will address that. The Volt is only the beginning. A revolution is coming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprung_mass
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:33 pm)im not a engnier,so I don’t know how thees moters worke, but like the gas burning moter. Is started by cold crank 12volt right. Well in my mind why cant an electric moter be based on the same idea. Use a 12volt battery to start it, and like an electric genarator let it power its sellf. Because If im not mestaken arent alternators basicly small generators.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:39 pm)#77 mitch
“That is the second one they will release? lol because I think only the first has been delivered…”
I’m not sure if you are asking about physically one car or another model…anywhoo, I will answer both.
Last I heard, Tesla was at #9 or #10 delivered to customers on the roadster.
This new ‘city car’ they say they are going to build would be in attention to the whitestar (or whatever they are calling it now, Model S I guess) for 2010.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:41 pm)#78 Bryan The electric motor cannot power itself because it requires more power coming in than it can put out. Maybe it requires 100 watts in to produce 95 watts out. Then, too, maybe all 95 of those watts are being used for something else, such as turning the wheels.
Remember, for a gas motor the energy source, once started up, is gasoline, which provides enough energy to run the car and recharge the small car battery.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:45 pm)In responce to Jim #77 its hard for me to put my thoughts on paper my mind moves to fast. Plus I had my friend edit the frist one. Off the point. I do put more thought into most of my imporant letters. like the first one. I tend to slack off in back and forward talk.
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:45 pm)#79 Statik
Second car…not model.
Actually I think Tesla is doing good considering the price and the fact that they are using laptop batteries…They did have some delivery issues before the first rolled out, and that is what I was (Jokingly) refering to..
That is 3 posts today isn’t it? only 2 left better be selective to keep your self imposed limit of 5..Hope the weather inToronto is good, nice in Windsor (Better than the economy)
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:54 pm)#27 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
That’s what I’m saying. If you want to sell me a car, bring the Volt. Otherwise, we’ll just keep our current stuff going by hook or crook.
#68 Tagamet & #70 Statik:
In the end , it all boils down to one thing. In the words of the Prophet:
“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road.”
#71 & #79 Statik:
Couldn’t stand it, could you?
“Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.”
Michael Corleone via Steve “Silvio” Van Zandt
Aug 19th, 2008 (12:56 pm)#78 Brain
beter yet suk alot of air in thru your moth n blo it out yuor other end fur jet propulshun
(I think Bryan is “pulling our legs”)
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:03 pm)#73 Bryan
Just don’t worry about your spelling or grammar. Say what you have to say the best way you can. We can sort out any problems. Spelling and grammar does not make you any more of a person. You are doing fine.
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:06 pm)#84 ThombDbhomb:
LMAO. I think that somebody’s just pulling our chains after yesterday. Those are too many typos to be typos. “Accidentally on purpose”, as we used to say when we were kids.
My youngest has two good degrees, and is a very respossible planner. Even so, his e-mails look a lot like “Brain’s” (LOL). Although I’m convinced that “Brain’s” rise to the level of a put on. It’s just a generational thing to make us old f**ts grind our teeth, IMHO. Just smile, shake your head, and drive on is my advice.
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:07 pm)RB#80
I mean the batry is for the start up and normal interor ues. What im triying to ask. Lets see.a genorator is bascaly to magnots right,it needs power to start it right.but after it can keep its sellf running, atleast thats how I see it.without knowing the sience of it. This my though power being made by the magnots to power the movemint of the car. Why cant some of that power be put back to the genorater.
lets say something like a big altanater. The 12volt really is not being used atleast not by the electric morter. Im not really good at expressing my though on paper. (gramer would be better but I hate overtype)
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:10 pm)Power a vehicle with maggots?
Great Idea!!!!!
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:13 pm)I will be driving my volt 48 weeks of the year, within the 40mile range. I would like to hear about stale gas issues, and a discussion on the feasibilty of a dock-able Range Extender. Also if the RE was dockable, what kind of performance increases would be had by removing the 4 cyclinder. (Weight advantage.)
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:18 pm)maggots wa??????????????????????????
you no funny
no no chane pulling just tierd of gas prices
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:22 pm)Wheel motors and big horsepower (think ~700 hp and ~2000 ft-lb) are definitely the way of the electric future (because one day it’ll be cheaper to build them that way). But not the very near future. The 2010 sort of timeframe only has the Mitsubishi (iMEV Sport) using wheel motors on the front wheels (with a “standard” motor on the rear) and those are very small.
The future of wheel motors looks much more like these:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html
With ~160hp for ~50lbs and that includes the electronics. That’s actually pretty competitive with current wheel assembly weight once you consider that this replaces most of the brake weight, the bearing weight and possibly much of the rim weight and that metal that currently holds those things together (I can’t think of a name for the rest of the metal parts… It’s just the “wheel” assembly “parts”
The \Volt won’t use anything like this. They’re basically using the drive system from the fuel cell Equinox with little modification in order to get the product out as quickly as possible.
#26 avatar:
Yes. Things are going to get very tough for the big oil companies. They sowed the seeds of their own destruction by outsourcing much of their “well related” work to subcontractors. Now they don’t really add value and the countries that used to have to come to them to figure out how to get the oil out of the ground can go to the exact same subcontractors that they do and do it themselves.
Same thing happens in the electronics industry only much, much faster. Once a company outsources the real work, they invariably head down the tubes…
In any case, it won’t matter all that much. We’ll go from one set of oil overlords to another. On second thought, I take that back. Russia is probably a far greater concern than OPEC. People forget that the breakup of the Soviet Union was fueled in no small part by the loss of oil revenues from the US conservation effort back then. Now that revenues are up, they seem to be emboldened…
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:29 pm)#17 Showmemike
“Sounds like all you guys have wacked into the hype, gas prices are coming down again with the drill here drill now poop,”
What does wacked into the hype mean???? English please.
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:31 pm)anywas just a thought. just saying my observations on a out side the sicence and or box. im not a sicentest I just worke at ups. Im just telling it how i see it knowing how genaoraters worke. make the moter power its self
forget the gass it’ll only go back up. its screw the people and worship the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:34 pm)Oh. I forgot to say that in regard to the actual topic that this is great news. Thanks, Lyle.
Whether or not they’re exactly on (the original) schedule, they certainly seem to be trying to get the car out as best as they can… This is great, can’t wait to hear more reports about the new mules.
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:43 pm)just relized how to brake down my thoughts.
12volt-genarater (really big and strong altanator )-electoric moter-car move
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:44 pm)The bob Boniface chat is open now, the chat is suposed to be between 3pm – 4pm est. (15 minutes from this post)
http://www.gmnext.com/LiveChat.aspx?i=1
Aug 19th, 2008 (1:56 pm)The new 2010 Cadillac SRX should be put on an e-flex chassis. A high end, more expensive, newly redesigned vehicle from GM in 2010 has no excuse NOT to be designed around that chassis. IMO
That would be a good seller for GM. The additional costs can be tolerated in that type of high end vehicle better than a Chevy or Pontiac. A few years later it shows up in the rest of their brands when manufacturing costs come down. Think of all the good press GM could get coming out with a crossover type vehicle using the Volt technology.
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:12 pm)Live chat right now with Bob Boniface Director of Design for the Volt 3:00 to 4:00 pm EDT
http://www.gmnext.com/LiveChat.aspx
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:19 pm)I stand by my statements regarding wheel motors. The issues of unsprung weight and power connectivity override any of the benefits that might be derived with wheel motors.
But keep ‘em coming… the lively debate is fun and educational
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:22 pm)Oh I know yhaw dont care much for what im saying. but I am a chevy lover and cusomer so why desghin one car and not adapt curent moddels like the fullsize pickup to the impla colbalt, blazer,thao,suberban, and when it is released the new camorw, to the valts abalitues in electric power wile keeping the volts plans going. the pulic may be more likly to by with more options.
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:50 pm)#83 noel park
“#71 & #79 Statik:
“Couldn’t stand it, could you?
“Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.”
Michael Corleone via Steve “Silvio” Van Zandt”
It’s like a disease, once you are infected it’s pretty hard to get cured.
Side Note: Is this not the SLOWEST online chat in the history of the internet? Feel like we are rocking the 300 baud specials (old school reference for the 30+ crowd).
Ironically I have nothing to say on the topic of “aerodynamics and how it impacts the design for the Chevy Volt”….pretty hard to comment when you are yet to actually see it. I’m just a fly on the wall.
Aug 19th, 2008 (2:56 pm)#101 Statik.
Per #70 (Statik) ” 5 posts a day…max. (=”
that is 4….lol
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:05 pm)Personal fav question from Lyle right at the end:
Q:”What percentage of the vehilce’s components would you say have been sourced and suppliers picked at this point?”
A: “Many of the major components have already been sourced”
…not the question, at all.
/half full
#102 mitch:
“Per #70 (Statik) ” 5 posts a day…max. (=”
Guess I’m done now, lol.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:07 pm)***********************************************************
Bryan, I like your humer. You are funnie.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:08 pm)“RickyBobby” Bonfice seems more stoked about the interior than the exterior. I think that’s great news.
Q: Will the interior materials match the quality of the
exterior design?
A: The interior is FANTASTIC! The material selection is
innovative and compelling.
A: Yes, yes and yes.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:10 pm)#101 Statik
“It’s like a disease, once you are infected it’s pretty hard to get cured.”
I have an idea how to solve your addiction. Buy a Volt.
(Too bad my pusher can’t get some of the good stuff for about two years…)
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:15 pm)#101 Statik
300 baud ? You need to be > 40 years old to understand this one lol.
Those were the days when we had to think before doing something cause the terminal was so damn slow
I agree with you, this must have been the slowest chat I’ve seen for quite a while. I had a question that did not receive an answer for lack of time. Too bad.
Pete
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:16 pm)Yep, Statik, that was SLOOOO. Lots of “softballs” lobbed, but Bob did ok.
I still remember the sound of dialup modems “shaking hands” at the beginning of the connection. Ah, those were the days (lol, NOT).
Be well,
Tag aka “The Prophet”
“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!!!”
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:22 pm)Bryan…..
Your grammar and spelling are indeed important, very, very important. When you spell correctly (or at least attempt to use a grammar and spell checker to fix it) you show that you are intelligent, well thought, and can communicate effectively. To say that it is the public schools fault is hogwash and not taking responsibility for applying yourself while you were in school. The fault is yours, not the schools…I don’t buy it for one second.
When you can’t spell properly it looks as though you are stupid, which you certainly are not. You thoughts are getting across but it is objectionable and awkward reading your comments. Many people will pass them by just to save themselves from reading it. Take the time to fix the spelling. Use a dictionary, sit it next to your computer. Relearn what you learned wrong and fix it. Make yourself a better speller and writer. It takes time but it will be worth it.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:32 pm)They just don’t get it, we want big cars, suv’s, trucks and sport cars that go very fast and are very nice, just like the ones we have now, we just don’t want to put gas in them. Now go figure it out.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:47 pm)As far as vintages of Volts I’d like to see one more utilitarian than sporty. One with useable trunk space, lay flat rear seats, a durable interior.
I just watched the Charlie Rose interview of Wagoner. It basicly reiterated all you’ve heard/read before. Wagoner states GM isn’t going into bancruptcy and that they are on the right track. Tonight Charlie will be, for the whole hour, with Lutz and the Volt team discussing the Volt, in Michigan — looks to be right there at their design center. Should be a good show.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:50 pm)Jan,
The Volt’s rear seats do fold down.
Be well,
Tag
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:55 pm)Kevin R #109.
You are correct. I stopped reading them.
Aug 19th, 2008 (3:58 pm)110 Showmemike says,
They just don’t get it, we want big cars, suv’s, trucks and sport cars that go very fast and are very nice, just like the ones we have now, we just don’t want to put gas in them. Now go figure it out.
I would say, for the most part, you are correct. It is a generalization of course, but I think we have gotten used to the vehicles we drive and don’t really want to change that. We just don’t want to pay for the gas to drive them. Personally, I drive small cars anyway, but I could really use a pickup. I would love for it to be an EREV.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:04 pm)#84 ThombDbhomb Says
#78 Brain
beter yet suk alot of air in thru your moth n blo it out yuor other end fur jet propulshun
(I think Bryan is “pulling our legs”)
Unusually harsh for you, no?
I gave up reading them. Too aggravating.
Firefox has a built in spell checker he could use.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:09 pm)Tag #112
It’s on PBS, so no commercials. It’s usually on at night — 11pm or later. It’s a 1 hour show monday-friday. Sometimes your local stations rebroadcast during the day as it is here from 3-4 pm. As they say, check your local listings. I’m a big fan of the Charlie Rose show. Charlie has had Wagoner on many times over the years. Charlie knows everybody who’s anybody in this country, no joke.
I’m glad to hear the rear seats fold down, thanks.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:11 pm)#101 Statik
300 baud? Ah, I remember those days. Then we went to the blistering speed of 1200 baud, then 2400, 9600, 19.2, etc.
All were way too slow. I remember my friend having a BBS (Bulletin Board Service) at 300 baud. Talk about painful.
In a few years from now, speeds today will be too slow.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:12 pm)#110 Showmemike:
By George, I think you’ve got it! Why didn’t I think of that? Oh yeah. and also FREEEEE!!!
I got to thinking that a bit ago we had the names of Jean-Charles in Belgium, Statik in Canada, Tagamet in what, Pennsylvania?, and Noel in good old sunny, smoggy, SoCal all in one comment. I guess it goes back again to Jean-Charles’ great comments about this medium drawing the people of the world together and helping us to get past a lot of the BS we are fed.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:13 pm)I didn’t get to listen/read the chat, but it doesn’t sound like it was too interesting from reading some of your comments.
Will it be transcribed? Or was it bad enough that it isn’t worth doing that?
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:16 pm)If money was no problem, I would have a full size pickup truck, a small pickup truck and several cars to drive. But, as in many other things where money is concerned, it is too scarce around my house to be able to afford all those play toys. But, it would be nice. I love the new Chevy full size trucks and the Malibu is great. I rode in an almost new Toyota Avalon and it was a really nice car. My friend was getting 29 mpg with a V-6 automatic transmission on the short 75 mile trip we went on. That was with him driving 70 – 75 mph on a four lane highway. It takes money to stay up with the “Joneses” these days.
I know this comment is a little off topic, but talking about want big cars, suv’s, trucks and sport cars got me started.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:19 pm)#117 Rashiid Amul
A speed of 300 to 1200 baud was not really that slow until we got to sending and receiving graphics on the web. Early Bulletin Boards were all text and speed was ok. Windows and the web made the real difference in speed.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:23 pm)I want a way to remove the gas motor. I mean take it out of the car and not use it. I am sure it will be one of the first mods. I’d rather carry a small honda generator in case I need it instead of a 500 lb. generator.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:24 pm)Bryan,
In case you’re serious:
1) Cars don’t run on water. In fact, water is not a fuel source for anything.
2) Generators can’t power themselves. They need a fuel source.
3) Fuel sources include oil, coal, natural gas, nuclear, solar, wind, geo-thermal, bio-mass, etc.
So there is no free ride around the corner. The best case scenario would be the ability to use any of the fuel sources listed above. That’s why electric cars are so important.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:28 pm)They said they’d post a transcript later this week on GMNext.com. It’s a toss-up as to whether or not it’s worth reading. The price is right…
Be well,
Tag
PS Found Charlie Rose. Thanks Jan. It’s at 11:30 pm, so I’ll TIVO it.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:31 pm)Kevin R #109:
Thank you. I was starting to think I was the only one that found those posts almost painful to try to read…. I think it would be easier to try to decipher hieroglyphics.
I skipped the last few.
Statik,Tag, and Rashiid: My first modem was 300 baud, where you had to set the handset from the telephone into the rubber cups on the top of the modem. It was connected to a Radio Shack TRS-80 model 1 computer with cassette tapes for storage. As I recall, the serial number of that computer was in the low 5000 range! That was in 1978.
So as you can see, I have always been an “early adopter”!!!
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:31 pm)Just a thought – if gas goes back to 1$ , the US should set up a new federal fuel tax to keep the consumer price at the 2-3$ level. And pay the US budget deficit with it. If the real price goes back up, the tax should be reduced.
In case you havent heard, the US is heavily in debt and it has a lot to do with fighting the oil wars. Not that I blame the US (thanks!), but still – it costs you a lot over there. Consumer gas price coming down would just mean more fuel consumption and more future oil wars.
The same scenario (being oil-dependent, going to war over oil) would play out again and again until the prices go way up again anyway because there will never be enough oil.
And the prices will go up. For a very simple reason – the world is getting more populous and everyone wants a car. The people in China and India are just beginning to get themselves cars. Both have a population 4 times that of the US and both have access to cheap domestically produced cars. At the same time their gas prices are lower than yours! Why? Ok, the system works like this – the Chinese government buys oil at the market price but sells fuel to it’s citizens at a much lower price. This helps the Chinese economy enormously and makes also the chinese people happy and well governable. The same goes for India. And a large number of other Asian countries.
They just don’t dare to give their people the price shocks because they fear oil-riots and worse (falling governments , revolutions you name it)..
Personally I don’t understand why the US government is not saying anything about fuel subsidies in Asia. Basically it is what in trade is called DUMPING. Only this time it’s not dumping specific to some goods or a category of goods but across the board dumping.
Four you people in the US and for us here in Europe this means two things – 1) lower-paid and more fuel-consuming jobs move to China/India 2) You pay a higher fuel price at the pump.
The smog in Bejing is not accidental – yesterdays engines are burning more and more of the worlds oil over there..
For the Volt however high fuel prices are good news.
And if the US and the rest of the educated world slowly weans themselves off gasoline/diesel, China and India can fight each other over the remaining fuel resources…
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:32 pm)#122 jefro Says: “I want a way to remove the gas motor. I mean take it out of the car and not use it. I am sure it will be one of the first mods. I’d rather carry a small honda generator in case I need it instead of a 500 lb. generator.”
————————————————————————————–
What kind of small honda generator did you have in mind? It would need to provide 53,000 watts of power. The biggest Honda generator on their web site only provides 10,500 watts of power and weighs 403 pounds.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail§ion=P2GG&modelname=EB11000&modelid=EB11000K1A
You would need 5 of these to equal the Volt’s gas engine generator.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:37 pm)#115 Rashiid Amul
My comments were meant to humorously expose Bryan as a charlatan troll, using his theme of spelling errors and perpetual motion theories. Bryan was amusing himself by playing on the good nature of many here. Charlatans should expect harsh responses once they are discovered. I think Bryan’s schtick is almost played out now, although he is still geting a few bites.
I’d rather not devote much more time to him.
Harshness results from anger. I didn’t have a lot of anger when I made my comment. I admit I conjured a crude image, which could be interpreted as harsh. I you felt harshness, I apologize. We don’t need harshness in a civil discussion.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:48 pm)123
don’t we have every day plug in generators. Let’s say a capacitors that lets you run your subs with minimal battery drain (car not on)
that in mind who’s to say my thought could not work.
all you would haft do is run a small amount of the generators power back to the motor turning the magnets aka the generator.
a another example is the hand crank radio put a small motor on it let it crank its self in a manner of speaking
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:50 pm)#126 Kaido Says: “Just a thought – if gas goes back to 1$ , the US should set up a new federal fuel tax to keep the consumer price at the 2-3$ level. And pay the US budget deficit with it.”
————————————————————————————–
I agree. It makes no sense to borrow money from China to fight a war in Iraq to feed our oil addiction, only to have our children pay off this debt decades from now.
Let’s put the national debt in perspective. If you take the national debt and divide it by the number of people in the U.S., you’ll get your individual portion of the national debt. This turns out to be about $31,500.
That includes children. So if you’re a family of four, your portion of the national debt is $126,000. What’s more, your part of the debt is increasing at a rate of $729 per month (for a family of 4).
This is nuts! How can this continue? China already has us by the balls. If it continues, they’ll own us lock, stock, and barrel.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:50 pm)On the issue of wheel motors, it’s still too immature a technology. The weight is still an issue and the rpms they reach isn’t that high (you can see this in the motors for the Lightning GT which peak at 2000rpm, compared to the Tesla Roadster which peaks at 13000rpm). They also tend to cost more. So they don’t add that much benefit unless you want a 4WD car; even the efficiency benefit isn’t that much given how conventional electric motors already don’t require a transmisson and thus the efficiency gain from wheel motors is very small. On the Volt, a conventional motor is definitely a better choice, esp considering they want to keep cost down.
Even Mitsubishi, who was pushing wheel motors in their concept vehicles decided on conventional motors for their production EV.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:53 pm)#115 Rashiid Amul
sounds like you may work for the oil companies
triying to put down a good idea
or ur jelous a dumd redneck can understand this life better than you
#115 Rashiid Amul
My comments were meant to humorously expose Bryan as a charlatan troll, using his theme of spelling errors and perpetual motion theories. Bryan was amusing himself by playing on the good nature of many here. Charlatans should expect harsh responses once they are discovered. I think Bryan’s schtick is almost played out now, although he is still geting a few bites.
I’d rather not devote much more time to him.
Harshness results from anger. I didn’t have a lot of anger when I made my comment. I admit I conjured a crude image, which could be interpreted as harsh. I you felt harshness, I apologize. We don’t need harshness in a civil discussion.
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:54 pm)Let’s get the production freeze, so we can…….
(all together now)
Get the Volt’s wheels on the Road!!!
(That was a little weak, Statik)(g)
Aug 19th, 2008 (4:57 pm)#124 Tag – Don’t forget Charlie Rose is usually rebroadcast the next day. We get it at 11:00pm at night and then at noon the next day in New Mexico.
#109, #113 and #125 – I also stopped reading them, but #128 I don’t think he’s done. He was also on the Bob Boniface chat today.
#125 – talk about early adopters, I had a Sinclair ZX80 (that was when they still came from England). We had a great add on memory module that was a whole 16k of RAM!
It plugged in the back, but was a vertical box the size of a bar of soap. Any time it got bumped, the computer crashed.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:00 pm)jefro #122
I read somewhere that a small generator puts out the pollutant equivalent of about 200 cars.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:01 pm)#46 maharguitar, #58 DonC
“Rolling Resistance”
Just how does this relate to traction?
My current car came with a set of tires that after 2yrs (about 20K miles) couldn’t hold the road when taking a 90 degree turn in a wet parking lot at <5MPH. I replaced those OEM tires with a set of GY TripleTreds. Not to overuse an old metaphor, but the car sticks to the road almost like glue now, not only in wet road conditions, but in snowy ones as well. The downside is that my average mileage dropped from around 24MPG to around 22MPG. The new tires are over 2yrs old now with slightly more miles and the MPG difference has been steady since the beginning. I’ve been told by numerous people, including my dealer, that the difference is due to the “stickiness”, or greater rolling resistance, of the TripleTreds compared to my old tires.
So if what I was told is true, does “low rolling resistance” likely imply poor traction & road holding?
Thanks
OT replies/comments …
#101 statik
“Side Note: Is this not the SLOWEST online chat in the history of the internet? Feel like we are rocking the 300 baud specials (old school reference for the 30+ crowd).”
300 baud modems? Damn, I never imagined I’d be able to say it on this forum, but … What are you, a youngster? Back in the day (1978, or was it ’79?) we had 110 baud Acoustic Couplers and 40×20 (characters, not pixels) displays! Rookie!
#121 N Riley
“A speed of 300 to 1200 baud was not really that slow until we got to sending and receiving graphics …”
Bingo. The “web” and graphical, and heaven forbid – video, interfaces are nice and I wouldn’t want to go back to my 40x20char screens, but when you’re talking about simply sending text … broadband simply isn’t needed. Of course, time, and technology, marches on and iit’s very difficult to find anyone to correspond with using only text any more.
#125 Jim I
“My first modem was 300 baud, where you had to set the handset from the telephone into the rubber cups on the top of the modem.”
That was an Acoustic Coupler.
#126 Kaido
“Just a thought – if gas goes back to 1$ …”
I’m sorry, but I honestly I have a better chance of winning Lotto/Powerball without buying a ticket than living to see gasoline drop in price back to the $1 range (which near where it was when I got my first computer back in the late ’70s).
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:01 pm)Michael@134
”
“#125 – talk about early adopters, I had a Sinclair ZX80 (that was when they still came from England). We had a great add on memory module that was a whole 16k of RAM!
Yeah, but *I* had a slide rule! (lol)
Be well,
Tag
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:04 pm)#122 jefro
#127 Dave G
This idea has been thought of before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer
The generator on the trailer provides just enough to power the car for highway cruising (20kW). It is intended for longer range driving and not for everyday commuting. It would be unfit for a 40 mile range EV. You need at least 100 miles so that you can stand a good chance of not having to tow that thing around everytime you commute.
As a side note, I watched a video of Vicky from 5th gear powering a SMART Ed (the electric car version of the SMART) with a smaller handheld honda generator (you can see her do it at 5:20 in the video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIUaKRlFEk4
Maybe a small honda generator is enough to run the car at slower speeds (of course she might also have waited on the side of the road for the generator to charge the car).
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:09 pm)for some one so smart you ask the questions that most people over look
ThombDbhomb Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
My comments were meant to humorously expose Bryan as a charlatan troll, using his theme of spelling errors and perpetual motion theories. Bryan was amusing himself by playing on the good nature of many here. Charlatans should expect harsh responses once they are discovered. I think Bryan’s schtick is almost played out now, although he is still geting a few bites.
I’d rather not devote much more time to him.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:13 pm)Jim I # 125,
I learned and fell in love with computer programming on a
TRS-80 model 3. It had a built in 5 1/4 inch floppy drive and had
16k of RAM. The following year, it was upgraded to 48K of RAM and we were all wondering what we were going to do with all the memory.
I’ve been programming ever since.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:17 pm)OK. My turn again. I started programming on an old IBM. We had punch cards for input, a line printer for output, and no screen. The Sinclair was just my first personnel computer. Before the memory module it had 2k of memory.
As far as memory is concerned, don’t forget the famous quote: 640k is all anyone could need.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:20 pm)#131 stoopcrazypp Says: “On the issue of wheel motors, it’s still too immature a technology. The weight is still an issue and the RPMs they reach isn’t that high (you can see this in the motors for the Lightning GT which peak at 2000rpm, compared to the Tesla Roadster which peaks at 13000rpm).”
————————————————————————————–
Remember that wheel motors run at the actual RPMs of the wheel. There is no gear reduction (like the Volt), or transmission (like the Roadster).
I just measured the tire circumference on my car. It’s around 85 inches. At 2000 RPMs, this would be over 160 miles per hour. So for a wheel motor, 2000 RPM is fast.
As for weight, the PML site says the unsprung weight of wheel motors is only 2 Kg (4.4 pounds) more that a traditional wheel with disc, brake caliper, half shafts and cv joints.
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_faq.html
I’m not saying wheel motors are the way to go, but I wouldn’t dismiss them too quickly.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:24 pm)I did not read the whole thread, but at least in the early comments, no one mentioned the possibility that internally GM has selected which battery will go into the production vehicle. If they are going to drive the first production intent vintage next week, that means the production intent battery is in the vehicle right now.
Turning to another topic, number of motors, post 22 did not seem to mention the electric power steering motor, the power seat motors. It seems the drive motor is rated at 120 KW, but is able to generate power from regeneration braking, but we do not know the rating of the generator. So a question for Lyle. Also the generator connected to the ICE is rated at 53 KW, but we do not know the power rating as a starter motor.
Final thought, I would like to see in one of the 2011-12 vintages, a power convertible motor.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:26 pm)#140 Michael Says: “OK. My turn again. I started programming on an old IBM. We had punch cards for input, a line printer for output, and no screen.”
————————————————————————————–
Me too! (with Fortran 4).
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:29 pm)“Now GM is on the dawn of the next milestone, the running of the first true mule, which is a developmental Chevy Volt that contains all of its production-intent components.”
#142 Van
How did we miss that until now? A battery is a component. Of course, both batteries could be represented in this new vintage.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:34 pm)#147 Dave G
Yes but that also requires a motor of much higher output for the same acceleration since there is no reduction gear, for example the Lightning GT needs 700hp and 553lb-ft of torque to get the same 4 second 0-60 as the Tesla, which only needs 250hp & 295lb-ft of torque (Drivetrain 1.5 which only has one gear). Having the 13000rpm allows for greater flexibility, since you can use a reduction gear, while with 2000rpm you are more limited even if you design a wheel motor with a gear inside.
The top speed is actually 130mph according to Lightning so that is the same top speed as the Tesla.
I suppose 2000 rpm isn’t that much of a limitation for normal cars if it can reach 130mph with 2000rpm.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:34 pm)Bryan,
It is amazing how you fixed your spelling and grammar, and then trash it again. Are you having fun?
As for Rednecks. I like them. I am not one of those northerners that think anyone with southern accent is stupid. Do northerners have rednecks?
I judge people by the individual, not whatever group they belong to.
As for working for an oil company, I never have and never will.
However, I do work for the traders responsible for raising energy prices.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:35 pm)I would steel like to know why my idea would not worke
don’t we have every day plug in generators. Let’s say a capacitors that lets you run your subs with minimal battery drain (car not on)
that in mind who’s to say my thought could not work.
all you would haft do is run a small amount of the generators power back to the motor turning the magnets aka the generator.
a another example is the hand crank radio put a small motor on it let it crank its self in a manner of speaking
could we not turn thees small tec into a nice purty mortor
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:41 pm)#143 Dave G – of course it was Fortran 4.
#146 Rashiid – I thought you were ignoring.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:44 pm)im to lazy to use my spell check i haft to pull a email box cut then past and what dos it mater this is for cars and thear talking about computers anywas
Do you injoy persacuting people or are you imtemaded by people that think outside the box
maby you like energy prices so you can line your pocets like bush
sorry if i offend anyone that may be cool with bush.
my idea may take your money away if puled off
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:46 pm)Bryan wrote “Lets see.a genorator is bascaly to magnots right,it needs power to start it right.but after it can keep its sellf running,”
Wrong a generator needs gas, propane, electricity or some other form of energy to keep running. Go to any store that sales generators and take a close look. On each one you will see a gas tank. That is where you put the gasoline to run the generator. It does not run on magnet power.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:48 pm)#140 Michael Says:
OK. My turn again. I started programming on an old IBM. We had punch cards for input, a line printer for output, and no screen.
——–
Yup, I went from a TRS80 Model 3 in High School
to an IBM 360 in college. I almost gave up programming completely.
I hated punch cards. Didn’t like COBOL or Assembler.
College seemed like a backwards step from High School.
Fortran was fun though and so was PL/1.
I program in RPG IV now and have a team of programmers under me.
Edit: I also program in ASP. I like that the best.
er….. oh ya….ah….Go Volt! Go GM!
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:49 pm)Michael #148. I really am now.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:49 pm)When my sister and I were young adults she had a great financial plan. Whenever your checking account gets low, you can just write a check and deposit it. I guess you could call that a money generator.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:52 pm)look smaller like i said hand crank raido.
small electric moter powerd by lets say asmall aaa batery but only entell the crank can power the little moter and the raido to. the aaa batery is no longer neded.
can you see what im triying to say. its not easy on paper.
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:56 pm)This may be old news to many who follow electric car development, but there is another electric due in 2010 besides the VOLT.
It is a Pininfarina-designed Italian sports car called the Sintesi.
(Pininfarina designs Ferraris and Masarati’s and such.)
Price? If you have to ask this is not the car for you.
But it is VERY cool VERY fast and quite exotic. Batman stuff.
Check it out at: http://www.sintesi.pininfarina.com/
Aug 19th, 2008 (5:57 pm)I ges it would not really power its sellf but it would power the motor that turned it. no combustion. just enough power to the smaller rotater motor the rest to the electric moter then there gos the car
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:06 pm)#155, mikeinatl.
That car is beautiful!
It’s not for me though. I have to ask about the price.
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:07 pm)Wow, apparently my casual 300 baud reference has brought forth the ‘uber geek’ in all of us.
(and my 6th post in this thread,lol…sorry mitch)
Since we are all telling war stories…’my’ first computer was a Apple II plus, I bought it with paper route money, cost me about $1,500 by the time it was all said and done…which was quite a bit at the time for a 10 year old.
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=571
Thats a great site btw…find all your old computer crap there and relive the memories of sitting down and trying to program your own sweet apps…or just playing Oregon Trail, lol.
Link to ‘Oregon Trail’ video below that I find unbelievably funny, but you probably won’t if you don’t know what I am talking about…or you have a normal sense of humoUr:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1763358
Side note: I had the wickest paper route in the city. 100 customers all in one apartment complex…made $50/week, took about 20 minutes to do the route. Thats like $250/week today I figure.
Needless to say, I was lord of my public school with all the cash, hehe. My parents hated it, they thought I was going to make like $6-$7 tops, made me totally independent of them, $2.00 to cut your lawn? Get real dad.
I kept it until the paper went bankrupt when I was 15. I saved enough to buy my first car at 16, brand new…in cash. (Pontiac Grand Am if your curious, lol)
/consider this thread hijacked…sorry Lyle
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:10 pm)Acutlaly, sepllnig raelly deosn’t mtaetr. Sicneitifc sutides hvae sohwn taht ntavie sepkares of Egnilsh are albe to dcepiehr wiritng wehre the lteetrs wtiihn wrods are cmolpteley srcmalbed jsut so lnog as the bgeniinng and ednnig lteetrs of ecah wrod are not cahgned.
But bcak to the tpoic: I haerd a Vlot rdaio cmoemcrail tihs mroinng. Ulnses GM is mkanig the asblotue msot otualdnsih dseepariton bulff of all tmie, it raelly deos look lkie the Vlot is giong to hpaepn. Sooenr or ltaer, aynawy.
(Aern’t cmoupetrs fun…)
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:17 pm)well im out.
hope someone figurs something out befor me my family and the rest of subberba gos bankrupt insted of woring if im lugit, or about my gramer
how do i stop the coments from being emailed to my mailbox
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:17 pm)#159 Farhevgrunegn Fnaoby
I agree with you when you say the Volt is going to happen sooner or later. I’m just hoping for sooner.
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:24 pm)#136 psklenar – “So if what I was told is true, does “low rolling resistance” likely imply poor traction & road holding?”
Unfortunately there is a trade-off. The best tire for rolling resistance would be very hard, very round, and have no tread. It would be good because it wouldn’t “stick” to the road. For a limiting case think about a train with steel wheels on a steel track. Great mpg but not so easy to stop.
Obviously the tire companies have to figure out how to balance the two. AFAIK the tires on the EV1, which were very hard, never presented a problem. Then again they weren’t sold in areas of the US that had cold and inclement weather (though this was because of battery life).
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:43 pm)This is literally giving me a headache.
“Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:45 pm)Yes, low rolling resistance means the car will suck when it comes to traction.
Question Lyle needs to ask GM that I have not seen asked yet, and that I think is the most important question:
Initially, will the Volt be available to all dealerships nationwide, or only to select dealers in select states? Will someone in Michigan have a chance to obtain a Volt like someone in California?
Aug 19th, 2008 (6:54 pm)hopeles i fugerd out the probulm out my sellf.
you braneacts are no hellp.
stick to hydro electicity you can split water make electricty.
and for mister consperacy lower energy prices or you might as well be an oil ezect. im just triying to give food for thought and find out whats the hold up on oil free energy is it really just a bunch of payoffs well i can weaght with my curent car tell the ferst non oil baste impla or vett is avalabule if ford is first well im cool with the mustang. this was a waste of my time!!!
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:06 pm)#92 omegaman66
wacked: to be killed by the mafia in a hit.
hype: a clever marketing strategy in which a product is advertised as an item everyone must have, to the point where people begin to feel they need to consume it.
I think “wacked into the hype” means those of us who have succumbed to GM’s clever marketing strategy and feel we need to consume a Volt are now destined to be killed by the mafia.
To me that suggests the possibility that the mafia may in fact be a subdivision of Toyota.
Aug 19th, 2008 (7:11 pm)Obvious Troll is obvious.
Aug 19th, 2008 (8:47 pm)“Rolling Resistance” – my experience tells me that not only can poorly gripping tires be dangerous to drive but they can also be annoyingly loud. Not something you want on a car that tries to save weight by losing some of it’s sound isolation….
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:41 pm)#151 Amul
RPG, that is so kewl.
I love RPG.
We use RPG for the small jobs in Iraq and Afghanistan !
We use JSP and EJB for the big jobs in USA.
Aug 19th, 2008 (10:50 pm)Are you all serious? Where you get the time to think and post all this? You have to be on walfer.
This is just a car and we all will be suprise the moment we see it. Giv them time and buy american.
Aug 20th, 2008 (7:11 am)#17 Showmemike:
Gas prices are coming DOWN?!? Yes, they are down from a couple of months ago, but try taking a 3-year view instead of a 3-month view. Ponder that in August 2005 the average price of gas was $2.50/gallon. It has gone up 50% since then to today’s current price of $3.75/gallon. The oil companies take a long view, so I suggest that you do the same unless you want them to continue owning you.
Tell me… if gas went up to $10/gal next week, then quickly “plunged” to and stayed at $5/gal, would you applaud gas prices being slashed by half? Have some big picture perspective please.
Aug 20th, 2008 (10:43 am)The generator is bolted to the back of the motor. If you apply power to it, it should spin the engine. It should certainly be big enough. I didn’t say the wheel motor should start the engine.
Aug 20th, 2008 (11:10 am)#171 Jim in PA:
I couldn’t have said it better, and I was getting ready to try. Unfortunately, Showmemike is indicative of the short-sited masses in this country; getting excited about ‘cheap’ $3.75 gas. Same logic my wife uses when she saves $10 by spending $100.
#23 Lurtz:
We actually did used to burn our trash in the 70′s. Me and my brother would stand back and wait for the CFC aerosol cans to explode. Pretty ignorant, I know. Different times.
Aug 20th, 2008 (11:29 am)Lyle,
Here find a link with Bob Lutz on a Vectrix.http://www.vectrix.com/corporate/US/news.php#bob-on-bike
Voltiacs on hold; Google XM3500Li
Aug 20th, 2008 (3:33 pm)Well, I’m late to this thread.
First computer:
Apple ][
(Original model... serial number 9 thousand something.
When you turned it on, it went "beep" and sat at the monitor prompt. You had to boot basic from rom (Woz's BASIC not that sissy Microsoft one), or code directly in the mini assembler. You could also load memory ranges directly from tape. I remember writing my first word processor in assembler when I was about 10. Of course, we just had the 40 column thermal printer, iniitally, but things got better.
First modem was a Hayes multimodem ][ capable of 110/300 baud. And it WAS terribly slow after we got the disk system. We were transferring... er, disk images though it at the time. Took all night. LIke a completely manual bittorrent system.
Granted, I could have actually just swapped disks with friends in person but that was hardly the point. 
Come to think of it, I first started learning about circuit design from the Red Book. Woz put all the schematics of the entire system in there, since it was still basically a kit system in pre-fabbed form. Which was a good thing, too, we could barely keep it running as it fried chips fairly frequently... Anyway, just for the record, Woz was a brilliant designer. I've never seen the equal in elegance of those initial designs. The way he laced the video refresh through memory to replace the DRAM refresh on a shadow opposite clock phase... It was totally brilliant. That system was far faster than systems that came even a decade later since NOTHING interfered with anything else (well, just the VBI but that was soo minor). (Later systems had to stop processing to wait for video access or memory refresh, etc. It took a long time to sort those problems out again in future systems)
Ahh, the good old days.
Aug 21st, 2008 (5:28 am)GM-I still would be more than happy to test one of the mules in the Florida heat. 239 410-8826 TED