GM’s Advanced Battery Director Denise Gray is “Keeping Her Eyes on the Future”
At no time in history has the content of automobiles undergone such a rapid shift. Calling the Volt a watershed event is an understatement.
Today GM’s advanced battery director Denise Gray spoke at the Traverse City CAR conference. She described the building of her battery program analogously to building a foundation for the future. Not only are the developments underway in making the Volt packs important for that car, but will indeed pave the way for a future battery "dynasty" at GM.
A big part of that is new young talent. She mentioned GM’s effort to recruit future battery engineers and draws attention to a group of 10 interns from the University of Michigan who have joined the E-Flex team. Traditionally U of M students tended to leave Michigan after school, but thanks to the enticement of being able to work on the Volt at GM, they are starting to stay.
Gray states "we have a great opportunity to mentor the future battery engineers of the world," and "this is a field we anticipate will grow in demand and prominence in just a few short years."
She also declares, "the battery is the underpinning of a major transformation taking place in the automotive industry and particularly at GM."
Gray remains bullish on the Volt’s battery success stating "we are confident we can deliver a battery that will last the life of the vehicle" which she confirms is 10 years/150,000 miles. She also confirms that so far "the results have been extremely positive."
"We are keeping our eye on the future," Gray states looking forward, "Even today, as the pace of development of the Volt increases, we are working on the next generation battery technologies."
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Related posts:
- Interview With Denise Gray, GM Battery Director
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- Congressional Hearing on Lithium-Ion Battery: GMs Denise Gray, and Johnsons Mary Ann Wright Testify
- Possible Future Chevy Volt Options - Version One Will Have 40 Miles EV Range
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75 Responses to “GM’s Advanced Battery Director Denise Gray is “Keeping Her Eyes on the Future””
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August 15th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Right. Batteries will transform the whole auto industry, and GM looks to be leading at the moment.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with the price of Li-Ion batteries over the coming decade as they start to get used in high volume automobile applications. If the price can drop by 50-75%, then a fully electric car would be an affordable possibility and with the new advances in quick charging it would be a virtually compromise free vehicle. If we can get a Li-Ion car to about 200 miles of AER with a 15 min 80% charge then I can see that appealing to many many people.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
University of Michigan is great. That’s a great school. I would also like to see GM interviewing some MIT grads.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
#2 Dan Says: “If the price can drop by 50-75%, then a fully electric car would be an affordable possibility and with the new advances in quick charging it would be a virtually compromise free vehicle.”
————————————————————————————–
I don’t see extended range electric vehicles as a compromise. Liquid fuels are by far the best for long distance travel. The energy density of liquid fuel is way more than a battery could ever hope for. The infrastructure of liquid fueling stations exists now.
Biofuels are carbon neutral. Algae, switch grass, and other viable sources for biofuels are being developed. Biofuels made from these sources could supply up to 1/2 of our transportation needs.
And when you look at the physics, it becomes crystal clear that liquid fuels have their place. Here’s a presentation from Ulf Bossel:
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E17.pdf
On page 19 he concludes:
“Heavy duty and long distance transport by land, air and sea will be powered by the last drops of oil or hydrocarbon biofuels”
So I see cars like the Volt as a longer term solution.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
i both respect and admire this lady. i hope her division makes great strides in the future.congrats, denise.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
“we are confident we can deliver a battery that will last the life of the vehicle” which she confirms is 10 years/150,000 miles. She also confirms that so far “the results have been extremely positive.”
Its just music to the ears of VOLT lovers.
Lyle:
Probably you should arrange an interview with Denis Gray and get some info on future battery technologies.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Who is going to get the production contract for the first generation battery pack? Tick tock, tick tock. The longer GM delays making the decision, the more the building of production facilities is delayed, which in turn delays the actual production of batteries in volume so few cars will be available in 2011. Tick tock, tick tock.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
If the build quality is good the car should last a lot longer than 10 years. I’d wonder if they’re considering replacing the battery as new technology gives the same size pack more range and performance.
OK OK. I know, let’s get the first one built …
August 15th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
The RE EV is the best possible near/long term aspiration toward ending our oil addiction, due in no small part to the E-85/100 capability of the ICE. While we hear our political candidates talk about energy, and both have mentioned the Volt, I seriously doubt they fully understand just how instrumental this car would be as part of a comprehensive energy plan for our country. I’m just delighted that GM had the foresight and gall to move ahead and produce this vehicle because I’m afraid it wouldn’t have been produced any other way.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Grizzly, where did you hear the ICE would be E100 capable? I know E85, just lots of cars that have been being built, it doesn’t take much to make an ICE E85 capable… mainly using different parts in key places that don’t corride from the ethanol (which is very corrosive).
August 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Latest News:
Volt battery pack will have less than 300 cells.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6285981/green/volt-watch-gm-gives-details-on-plug-in-hybrids-battery/index.html
August 15th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Jeff M #10
It’s actually a little more than just anti corrosive parts. The PCM must be programmed to monitor the exhaust stream and the result of running ethanol, or any combo of ethanol and oil would be higher enrichment and more ignition advance etc. Not that people haven’t run E85 in engines not specifically designed for it, but they wouldn’t run as efficiently and you might see some problems with corrosion among other things. I found the study below very interesting, but I’d like to see more of them to prove the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4YiEBnJ_8&feature=related
August 15th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Get a copy of “Who Killed The Electric Car” on DVD (Sony Pictures) from Amazon.com and learn about GM’s EV-1, or just read ev1.org/
They built a whole fleet of them over TEN years ago. They were fully developed, highly successful, as fast as a Ferrari and users begged to buy them, but they were all recalled from their (lessee) users and crushed! All except ONE - which was stripped of its innards (so it couldn’t be copied) and the body shell was donated to a car museum. Why was the EV-1 project killed off? Because GM realised that they were virtually maintenance free and they’d make nothing in after-sales revenue, and in cahoots with the oil companies, they killed the electric car for their own corporate reasons, in other words, greed!
Toyota also built a fleet of fully electric RAV-4 models, also highly successful, but they died too because the company that made the batteries (as also happened with the EV-1) was bought by oil companies and the batteries became unavailable.
The EV-1 was developed and built to comply with California’s new (at the time) Zero Emissions mandate, but General Motors and the oil companies hounded the Government into submission and the Zero Emissions bill was withdrawn, after which all the EV-1’s were recalled and destroyed. A blatant conspiracy by vested interests to keep electric cars off our roads!
IF the Chevy Volt ever sees tarmac it won’t be because they want to build it but because they are forced to, and if oil prices plummet then production of the Volt will probably be scaled back. Why didn’t they just revive the EV1 which was already fully developed? We could have had viable fully electric vehicles a decade ago and saved how much GHG pollution in the process? I’ll believe the Chevy Volt exists when I actually see one on the road.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
“we are confident we can deliver a battery that will last the life of the vehicle” which she confirms is 10 years/150,000 miles. She also confirms that so far “the results have been extremely positive.”
As much as I want a Volt, I am deeply concerned about $40,000 for a vehicle that lasts only as long as 10 years/150,000 miles. I currently own cars for less than half the cost and have kept them going strong long after 10 years/150K miles with just basic maintenance. I’m beginning to think that besides the initial premium cost, the Volt will be very expensive to own in the long run.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
I am addicted to Volt
signs….
read this site everyday even via phone when traveling
multiple t shirts
bumper sticker
Volt Nation
die cast model
rented a Prius today, next is Colbalt and Malibu just for feel, Volt will be so much better, although I liked Prius got 70mpg hardly trying.
installed TWO driveway changing points
working on saving enough kwh to cover Volt and house with kwh from my solar system.
phoning into radio shows
August 15th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
#13 Mr. Carson,
The past does not equal the future.
That was then, this is now.
Nothing about world oil demand could lead one to think that it will be possible to keep oil and gas artificially inexpensive as it was in the past. Demand in China, India, Russia will increase dramatically in the next few years. Hundreds of millions of new cars will be needed causing gasoline to continue to increase in cost over the coming years.
GM must make a change or die.
They must get away from total gasoline dependence.
Volt technology gives them marketability they couldn’t begin to enjoy with gas engine only cars.
EV-1 was not a matter of survival for GM.
Volt is.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Alcohol is not corrosive, It is hydroscopic, meaning it attracts water. That corrodes fuel injectors and fuel lines. Also alcohol in an engine after it is burned is observed by the oxygen sensors, and computer as running lean, (in a normal car). Stainless, plastics, and different calibrations are all that is needed to make a car run on alcohol. Or blends of alcohol. Take care
August 15th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Estimate of vehicle evaluation:
150,000 miles, assume 100,000 is EV range, 50,000 comes from gas indirectly (turbo-charge engine power the battery) (depends on driver, but 2/3 is reasonble). In order to evaluate the battery life (they should have at least 50 prototype cars), someone has to drive the Volt for 150,000 miles (battery simulation in the lab can’t replace field test), so we assume the battery is charged 3 times per day (3*5=15h), 3*40mile = 120 miles, say that is about 2h. So everyday on the proving ground, the mileage is 120 miles, from now to Sep, 2010, 720 days*120 mile/day= 86,400 miles, please note that I am aware that the 16Kwh battery can be charged fast, but that will seriously compromise battery life time, so even everything is perfect, GM will struggle to prove that the Volt battery can last 100K miles.
Because lithium battery pack is very difficult to make, GM must be testing many prototypes/mules, if they are not aggressive on demanding highest quality, very likely 1st generation GM Volt will be recalled later. I have a sense GM is not being honest about the schedule.
No personal attack i you do not agree, please focus on my calculation if you want to dig further.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Grizzly,
Donuts with front wheel drive just need to be done in reverse.
The “revenge” quote, as I’d learned it was “Revenge is a dish best EATEN cold” and was attributed to either China or Japan (I forget). Could be wrong.
ATTENTION
Talk about “good news/bad news”
Calcars.com’s Felix Kramer (a biggie re plugin vehicles) says that GM has presented to some of his group and other Calif people who’ve owned EV’s and plugin conversions for their input and he is floating the idea of GM using HIS group for beta testing the prototypes. He did give a passing mention of this site. I’m on his newsletter list as are about a bizzilion other people. I hope GM doesn’t throw us under the bus.
Tag
PS If anyone wants a copy of the newsletter, email me at lgeguzis ATSIGN comcast.net or sign up at calcars.com
August 16th, 2008 at 12:28 am
The vision is sell the car and lease the battery so it can be replaced over time and be upgraded. I do not care about more than 150 miles a day in fact I can live with 100 per day.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:57 am
AUOTOEXTREMIST.COM on gm-volt.com:
Lyle Dennis. From The “Delusions Be Us” File comes word that Lyle Dennis, a New York neurologist who fancies himself as the unofficial head of “Volt Nation” (Volt-erz are the new Trekkies, you didn’t get the memo?), insists that he has over 33,000 hand raiser-consumers who are interested in “buying” the new Chevy Volt, according to Automotive News. That GM has indulged this guy is noteworthy, only because it exposes what great lengths - and the level of desperation - they will go to convince the American public that the Volt has it goin’ on, even though only a handful will be available by the winter of 2010-11. And as industry people know, hand raisers and legitimate follow through buyers are two completely different things, but why get bogged down in details at this point? Lyle and his minions are happy, so that counts for something, right? Right.
August 16th, 2008 at 1:49 am
#19 Tagamet
I think this would be good news without any bad news. While this is a fan site I’m unsure if any but a very few would be willing or capable of putting up with the aggravations of the prototypes. The CalCar guys are very savvy, are used to having their cars not work, and may be able to come up with fixes and/or make some useful technical contributions. Let them have at it.
It would however be a great idea for GM to make sure that, along with the celebrity set, some loyal supporters like yourself were able to get some of the first production cars if you were inclined. The bottom line is that, as was the case with the EV1, production models from the first couple of years are going to be purchased by beta testers. The prototypes are more alpha test vehicles.
August 16th, 2008 at 2:44 am
I love that last paragraph:
“We are keeping our eye on the future,” Gray states looking forward, “Even today, as the pace of development of the Volt increases, we are working on the next generation battery technologies.”
August 16th, 2008 at 3:00 am
Pauln #21.
Everyone has their detractors.
To see who is right, we’ll have to wait until the end.
August 16th, 2008 at 4:39 am
#15 Mark
I’m with you. Upgrading the electrical service to my house this month to include 2-3, 240v receps in the garage. Longer range goals are to convert my house to 100% electric and hopefully add about 5kw of Nanosolar panels to my roof next year. I’m paying $106/month now for gas for heat and hot water… $106/month will buy a lot of kw’s at our rate of 0.066/kwh.
August 16th, 2008 at 5:57 am
I tend to like this quote,
“Not only are the developments underway in making the Volt packs important for that car, but will indeed pave the way for a future battery “dynasty” at GM.”
I can’t recall the actual number, but I believe when GM began its ground work on the Volt, they looked at about 25 different Li-Ion chemistries. After review and testing, they decided that LG Chem and A123 had the best chemistry for automotive applications.
Now if GM has obtained “exclusive” rights to some of these chemistries, that would give them a big lead in this field, and essentially block other competitors from using similar technology.
With these types of provisions potentially in place, along with a commitment to staff a battery development group, GM could be far ahead of the competition, and on its way to a “dynasty” with electric vehicles.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:30 am
#13 Paul Carson,
The questions you have raised about the EV1 have been answered many times here before, but maybe you are new to this forum, so I’ll respond to them here.
GM is in business to make money, not to save the planet. In the 90’s, GM was forced to make the EV1 to satisfy a California law. They never wanted to make the EV1 because they didn’t think it would make them any money. So when the California law was changed, GM canceled the EV1 project.
The cars were crushed because GM didn’t want to deal with the costs of servicing them or any potential law suits as the cars aged.
Today, things are very different. A few years ago, GM’s bean counters started looking at peak oil production and future world population trends. GM realized that within 10-15 years, there won’t be enough oil to fuel the cars this larger population will require. If GM wants to continue to make money 10-15 years from now, they must develop another fuel source for cars.
Now, as for “Who Killed The Electric Car”, did you know that the director of that movie (Chris Paine) is making a new film about the GM Volt called “Who Saved The Electric Car?” Also featured in the new film will be one of the EV1 owners who was interviewed in the original film. But for the new film to show GM in a positive light, GM must deliver on the Volt, and the Volt must be commercially viable.
So today, GM is in a position where they have to deliver on the Volt. They have no other choice.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:46 am
The Volt won’t be for everyone at the beginning. For those who think it’s not for them, don’t buy it. It’s a free world and nobody is twisting your arm. But, as expensive as it might be, it’s a starting point. I remember when I bought a a 4gig hard drive years ago and paid a couple thousand dollars. Look at what a 200 gig cost today. Well, give GM an equal fair change and stop the complaining. It shows immaturity.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Mark 15
WOW Just like me. I cannot wait for my volt.
Take Care,
TED
August 16th, 2008 at 6:55 am
#21 pauln Says: “That GM has indulged this guy is noteworthy, only because it exposes what great lengths - and the level of desperation - they will go to convince the American public that the Volt has it goin’ on, even though only a handful will be available by the winter of 2010-11.”
————————————————————————————–
How many Toyota Prius cars were sold in it’s first year of production? For new car models, first year sales are always low.
If you want to bash the Volt, try to get some facts.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:12 am
What’s that GM, working on a BEV Volt with 100 mile range? Excellent!
August 16th, 2008 at 7:16 am
21 PaulN:
He has a point. Hand raisers are entirely different from buyers. Buyers are usually more numerous than hand raisers. He is a 22 year automotive marketing guy. His problem is comparing the Volt and this site to a standard automotive marketing model when he really should be comparing it to an electronics “early adopter” model like everyone with new technology does.
Also, a guy who wrote a book titled “The United States of Toyota” about how Detroit squandered everything and made Toyota “America’s Car” well…lets just say I am going to take ANY and EVERY comment made by this guy about GM and the Volt with a huge grain of salt…more like a salt mound.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Pauln #21,
That is very easy (and cheap) to criticize, much less to realize something.
Dr Lyle Dennis realized GM-Volt.com and succeeded. He has proved something, did you prove something until now ? Dave G #30 is right.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Don C #8
I agree, the car’s potential life should not be sold short. I know GM is trying to embed battery longevity in the public mindset but they are underselling the car. It can last much longer than 150 miles or 10 years. I think they would be much better served by sticking to 100,000 miles or 10 years for battery powered propulsion and leave it at that.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:55 am
32 Morgan
I was confused by your post. You said “He is a 22 year automotive marketing guy”
Who are you talking about?
I am probably missing the obvious, but it would not be the first time.
#19 Tag
FYI:
The quote “revenge is a dish served best cold” is also known as “revenge is a dish which people of taste prefer to eat cold”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge
August 16th, 2008 at 8:05 am
#34 koz
I have never been a lease kind of person, but I am beginning to be persuaded that leasing the battery might be the best option for both the consumer and GM. (In old posts I was the guy who said I would NOT want to lease the battery, but I have learned a lot from others, and my opinion has changed. Love this site and the experts)
Here’s why:
1) The battery is unproven, and GM must protect its reputation (some would say “what reputation”). By leasing the battery they can perform some level of damage control in the future if the battery has issues.
2) For the consumer, the lease on the battery would be a substitute for the price of refueling your car. You spend money every month to fill up your tank, and so the lease cost would be somewhat equivalent. You are then protected against a major expense for battery replacement, should something catastrophic occur. You are also assured that in 10 years you do not have to cough up big dollars to replace the exhausted battery.
3) This should make the initial purchase price of more affordable to a larger number of people. The price of the battery would not be included in the price of the car. This could mean the purchase price may be less than $30,000, which to me would be a definite price point.
Now, I am not sure how exactly GM determines when a battery is at/near end of life, and then send you a new one (Fedex truck driver lugs this big, heavy battery to your front door
)
Anyway, like I said, I have never been a lease type person, but this case my justify the need for a battery lease.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:23 am
# 11 Talks wrote…
Latest News:
Volt battery pack will have less than 300 cells.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6285981/green/volt-watch-gm-gives-details-on-plug-in-hybrids-battery/index.html
I remember reading a story several months ago where that same “less than 300″ cell number was mentioned.
I don’t believe GM has revealed the “module count” number. I have to believe it’s between 5 and 8. Has anyone seen hard info on this ?
From the previously released pictures of the A123 cells, it appears they will simply plug in.
Contrast that to the 6800+ hand soldered NiMH cells in the Tesla Roadster.
What a joke that is.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:24 am
This post MAY be some proof that a plan exists to make E-REV a long term program (10+ years). I wonder if General Motors will change its name to:
General Battery Corporation (GB)
August 16th, 2008 at 8:40 am
BTW, we gained 5011 new members on the wait list this week, Saturday to Saturday, a new record I believe.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Right now GM offers 5 year 100,000 mile warranty on the power train. I fully expect they will include the battery on the volt and that would suit me just fine. The amount I spend on servicing the ICE (which should be much less on the volt) should compensate for later possible battery replacement?
August 16th, 2008 at 9:06 am
In my #36 post, I erroneously stated that the Tesla Roadster used NiMH cells. I was thinking of the EV1 (2nd gen). Sorry about that.
The Tesla Roadster uses Lithium Ion cells of the 18650 form-factor (18mm diameter by 65 mm length).
Cell count: 6,831 cells arranged into 11 modules connected in series; each module contains 9 “bricks” connected in series; each “brick” contains 69 cells connected in parallel.
Note: “Connected” = Soldered
August 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Hi all,
Sorry for the alarmist post I made. “Sleeping on it” and reading the drivel from pauln has helped my perspective. Well, that and the medication….
OK, I’m back on the excitement wagon for the 2 year ride into a glorious sunset (cue orchestra).
LET’S GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD”!
Be well,
Tag
August 16th, 2008 at 9:40 am
BILLR
I can’t find the youtube link you posted. Could you please re-post it?
Thanks in advance,
Tag
August 16th, 2008 at 9:44 am
“Gray remains bullish on the Volt’s battery success stating “we are confident we can deliver a battery that will last the life of the vehicle” which she confirms is 10 years/150,000 miles. She also confirms that so far “the results have been extremely positive.”
“Today GM’s advanced battery director Denise Gray spoke at the Traverse City CAR conference. She described the building of her battery program analogously to building a foundation for the future. Not only are the developments underway in making the Volt packs important for that car, but will indeed pave the way for a future battery “dynasty” at GM.”
———-
Yeah, they are so great at it….they are letting another company build/supply it totally. How exactly does ’sub-contracting’ the entire battery program of the Volt to a 3rd party supplier build a “dynasty”?
“We are keeping our eye on the future,” Gray states looking forward, “Even today, as the pace of development of the Volt increases, we are working on the next generation battery technologies.”
So they are having these new 10 interns (and their staff) working to learn/steal the current battery suppliers tech/knowledge right now, and then furthering that work by developing next gen themselves…essentially making the contract they are about to enter into obsolete….I would be thrilled if I was LG or A123.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:53 am
“The automaker will have a few Volt prototypes built with production-intent parts within the next 10 days and will have 50 of those prototypes by the end of the year.”
—Frank Weber, the engineer and executive in charge of the Volt and E-flex system
10 days?!?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080816/BUSINESS01/808160385/1002/BUSINESS
August 16th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Further to that article:
Weber said the automaker has already identified nine areas on the Volt where it expects to make major improvements or greatly reduce costs in the second year of production. It can’t make those improvements in the first year, or it would delay the quick timeline the automaker is on for the launch of the car.
Weber said the Volt program is quickly approaching the cut-off dates for changes to its design, powertrain and engineering plans. He said many of the Volt’s suppliers already have been selected.
So I guess if your lucky enough to get a first year Volt, your also lucky to get a immediately INFERIOR product, lol. Today, I am glad to not live in California or New York…for once.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Statik,
This time I’ll agree with YOU.
I’m glad that you don’t live in New York, too. (heehee).
Be well,
Tag
August 16th, 2008 at 10:14 am
#48 Tag
“Statik, This time I’ll agree with YOU.
I’m glad that you don’t live in New York, too. (heehee).”
Again, twice in two days…the apocalypse I say! Finally us non-demographically ideal candidates get something.
I can hear us now, “Yeah, thats a pretty sweet Volt you got last year…have you seen mine I just picked up, it has ‘MAJOR improvements,’ hehe”
/nothing like some built in obsolescence
August 16th, 2008 at 10:16 am
#42 Tagamet,
I believe you must be asking for the youtube video I posted on the previous thread. Here it is. The music is cool, and I like the lighting scheme on the Volt during the evening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVFTAgKTN70
Enjoy!
Bill
August 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Exp_EngTech, thanks for partly correcting yourself but two things…
… the EV1’s NiMH pack was made up of only 44 cells, less than 1% of the number of cells in the Tesla Roadster. I’m not sure those cells were soldered or clamped.
… where “connected” does NOT imply “soldered”… doing some googling I was unable to find anything from Tesla saying if they are soldered or not… there are a couple of comment posts where the person assumed they are soldered, but that’s just conjecture.
One thing I did find interesting is that each individual cell has two (2) fuses (one of each side)! That’s almost 14k fuses just for the individual cells!
In any you calling it a “joke” does not make it so. They are a small startup electric vehicle company. They did not have the financial resources to pay for the development of large format cells, new chemistries, etc, nor the planned vehicle production volume to justify such costs. Not to mention the extra development time it would have added.
Look how much time and money is going into the Volt’s packs… that only provide 8kwh usable capacity of a 16kwh pack. The Roadster’s pack is 53kwh (I’m not sure the usable capacity but I think it’s more than the 50% of the Volt’s pack). One of the recent GM posts had GM saying it would cost $10k to replace the Volt’s pack. Even assuming the Roadster only uses 50% of the raw capacity, then that makes the Roadster’s pack at least 6.625 as much…. which would make the pack cost $66,250. I forget how much Tesla says it’s pack are costing to build, but I think it was maybe 1/2 that cost… because they are using off the shelf highly mass produced cells.
And don’t forget that the Tesla Roadster was what inspired GM (Lutz) to build the Volt! No Roadster likely would have meant no Volt and we wouldn’t be here right now.
Lastly the Roadster and the Volt are completely two different markets (obviously). Roadster is a 2 seater 2 door sports car w/0-60 in under 4 seconds produced in very low volume. Volt is a 4 seater 4 door sedan produced in volume (even at at only 10k units 1st year I believe the Volt will be the largest production volume EV in history). I wish I could afford both a Roadster and a Volt, the Roadster for fun like any sports car, the Volt for pratical use.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Statik,
I think this guy is being brutally honest, in saying the next gen Volt will be much improved and less costly. Probably something he should not be saying, exactly for the ideas you have expressed. But if you thought that the 2nd generation was not going to be improved and less costly, I think you would be fooling yourself.
But in reality it really does not matter, since enough people will buy the very limited quantity of 1st gen Volts, no matter what. They have a captive audience, and GM knows they will sell the limited production quantities, no matter what.
My guess is GM is now setting the table for the longer term production of the Volt to the masses, and they are trying to say “Look, we know this 1st gen Volt is pricey and has some issues, but we are aware and will have them fixed and ready for our true production quantities”. The 1st gen Volt is being touted as more of a Beta Volt, in my opinion.
Just a thought…
August 16th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Statik,
I’d agree with you about the apocalypse, but THAT agreement might push it over the brink…..
GM HAS to get the initial Volt RIGHT, so fewer bells and whistles is great with me. Up there in Canada don’t companies improve their products? Of course, GM will build better cars each year. That’s what’s going to KEEP them on top (read post-volt).
BillR Thanks for the link!
Be well,
Tag
August 16th, 2008 at 10:35 am
In yesterday’s local paper the local GMC dealer advertised incentives on all Yukons, INCLUDING HYBRIDS, of $10,000 off MSRP.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:02 am
to the poster bringing up the documentary “Who Killed the Electric Car?”…. not sure what triggered your post, and while I agree with most of it, it seemed to come out of no where. In any case, if folks are interested in the DVD I recommend http://www.deepdiscount.com/ which has it for $9.66 but also with free shipping (amazon is only free if you buy $25+ worth of stuff). Anyone buying or renting, make sure to watch the bonus features or you’ve only seen 1/2 the movie.
In any case what I really recommend and provides a broader history (and not just focused on GM) and much more information overall is Sherry Boschert’s book “Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America”. It was written pre-Volt (late 2006) but still 100% applicable. $12 at Amazon (or $15 at deepdiscount).
August 16th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Statik:
Come on now. Which is it? ticked at GM because they haven’t awarded a contract or ticked at them because they haven’t gotten into the battery manufacturing game themselves. I LOVE your posts normally because they are thought provoking and usually right on but lately you have just been all over the map with your studied pessimism.
You know as well as I do that the modern American business model is based on specialization. GM shouldn’t be monolithic. It doesn’t need to get into the battery manufacturing game itself. It does however need to build the best battery integration technology, software, and design specifications. Let the battery manufacturers build the batteries as long as you can place yourself in a position to give them superior design specs.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
#3 George K
“University of Michigan is great. That’s a great school. I would also like to see GM interviewing some MIT grads.”
It is good that top engineers are going to be staying in Michigan. However Interest in Volt I think extends far and wide. The Volt and sites like this really make automotive engineering (even batteries) visible, relevant, challenging, cool and interesting to a far wider range of young people. Many MIT graduates will certainly want to join the party: namely, the intellectual challenge of out engineering Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mutsubishi, VW and Mercedes and winning the business race for Michigan, America and the planet.
Go Volt
August 16th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Paul Carson… ugghhh more “who killed the electric car BS”!!! If you want to know who REALLY killed the electric car look in the mirror. Who was willing to pay 100k dollars for an electric car when gas was super super cheap. Virtually nobody. So when you say that people were begging to buy them, that is correct but at 15K not 100K! We and cheap oil killed the electric car.
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Dave G. #4 talking about liquid fuels always having a place in transportation.
For now you are currect and will be correct for a while into the future, possibly forever. But IF and it is not a given… if cheap batteries with fairly fast charging capability can indeed become a reality then the need what would be the reason for building a more expensive car that weighs more and gets worse milage than the all electric? A duel fuel car will have the added weight of the fuel and the generators and the added cost of the engine and added technical difficulties of managing both with NOTHING to show for all that added baggage! If batteries can do it all with no range limitations what is the purpose of the duel fuel car?
August 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
By the way guys, Pauln was QUOTING A WEBSITE. I don’t think those were his words. Just making sure everyone understands that…
I wish GM recruited me to be an E-Flex intern. I guess they weren’t targeting University of New Hampshire.
August 16th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Omegaman,
Dual fuels are like wearing a belt AND suspenders (which I often do). As nasaman would say: Redundant systems! I’d love to live long enough to see your post come true, but I think the record is 114 years old…
Be well,
Tag
August 16th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Batteries stink, ultracaps may be better. Liquid fuel stil is the winner.
I would rather see a better generator and a smaller ultracap.
August 16th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Hey Jake, nice to see another U of New Hampshire grad on this site! Of course when I graduated there wasn’t even the EV1 yet, just GM Geo Metro’s that got 50mpg+ on it’s 1L 3 cylinder engine and sat 5 (of course we all weighed less then).
August 16th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
battery technology is going to be pretty hard to keep in house in GM. Its a technology that will spread out evenly across the industry for now.
GM must differentiate themselves via other means…the platform.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Jeff M - Oh, I’m not a graduate quite yet!! One more year of Mechanical Engineering to go. But yes, there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
August 17th, 2008 at 5:03 am
Perhaps there are a few here that do not understand innovation and patents. GM can’t just get into the lithium-ion battery business unless they find a way around the patents on the tech. Some of them are pretty broad. If they were looking down the road they would hire that fellow from Stanford that has come up with battery tech that could be ten times better than the present Li-ion batteries. Of course the Saudis have offered him 30 million dollars, with the stipulation that he spend three months a year teaching in their country, which may influence his thinking a bit.
August 17th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Some of the Volt detractors should attempt a “suspension of their disbelief” on a number of issues.
Consider that maybe both suppliers’ packs have tested well. Would GM cut one of them loose to be grabbed by a competitor or would they bring them both along and use their packs in different markets?
If one supplier’s pack is clearly superior, would GM let the competition know which direction they are headed? If both packs have similar problems, would GM keep working on development? If both packs have problems but they are dissimilar, would GM attempt to meld the technologies?
Some folks need to get off the high horses. We all know GM is in a high tension developmental cycle. We all understand that certain probabilities obtain. We all understand that GM wants to promote the product without promoting their competition.
So, if you guys want to stay on your high horses, please turn around in the saddle so that we’re not looking at your output.
August 17th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
13. Paul Carson:
Two words: “Range Anxiety”
Two more words: “Cheap Oil”
Two last words: “Heavy Batteries”
You would likely do much more for the advancement of BEV’s if you were to support an increased gas-tax, and help to raise awareness of its benefits. This would encourage consumers to buy smaller, more efficient cars, as seen recently with the increased price at the pump (and would make BEV’s more competitive). Additionally, this revenue could help rebuild America by: 1. More funding for schools to better our children’s future 2. Paying down the national debt to reduce our annual interest payments 3. Funding alternative energy solutions.
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37. Exp_EngTech:
Your avatar looked REALLY familiar, and I just remembered where I’d seen it before! … the Electricity merit badge for the Boy Scouts. Haha, I took the classes for that one over near the Fermi nuclear power plant.
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Go Blue! and congrats to Mike P!
August 18th, 2008 at 7:01 am
There way to much emphasis put on the batteries capacity. We need to be more concerned about efficiency.
Putting a larger “fuel tank” on a vehicle to get a better “range” doesnt accomplish anything.
August 18th, 2008 at 8:19 am
I am not sure if we’re talking about the same thing, but specific capacity of the battery is very important. The more energy you can store in a given L or kg means the less size and weight you’ll have to put in the vehicle, leading to improved vehicle efficiency by decreased mass.
Round-trip efficiency is important as well (when efficiency = 100%, energy out of battery = energy into it), but you can only approach 100% and then you’ve made all of the improvements that you can. With increasing specific power/energy limits with respect to volume/mass, the limits are not known, and there is likely undiscovered potential.
August 18th, 2008 at 10:32 am
#13 Mr. Carson,
The EV1 cost in the neighborhood of $80,000.00 to make. The lease value was $40,000.00. The lost money on each and every one. If you really follow the money, that is the shortest path.
The decision to crush them was also a money decision. Crushed cars are less of a liability problem. (Has any of the RAV4, ranger, or S10 owners sued, yet?) It may have been short sighted, but the decision is understandable.
If GM could have made money selling electric cars, they would have done so.. Those people who think GM should take a loss the first few years on the Volt live in a dreamworld.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:32 am
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but I haven’t seen anything in regards to this, but basically my question is what will happen or what will GM do with all the lithium batteries once they reach their 10 year, 150,000 mile lifespan?
We they be recycled? Some how rebuilt to be reused again? Or just thrown in the landfill?
August 18th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Seaquake2
“I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but I haven’t seen anything in regards to this, but basically my question is what will happen or what will GM do with all the lithium batteries once they reach their 10 year, 150,000 mile lifespan?
We they be recycled? Some how rebuilt to be reused again? Or just thrown in the landfill?”
They can be used in large buildings sitting in the basement to help smooth out the electricity. Or maybe sell them to people with solar?
Be well,
Tag
August 18th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
The VOLT sounds good, but I’m a little disappointed in the charged miles you will get (40). Toyota is coming out with a vehicle that will get 60 or more. GM needs to get more to sell more. Otherwise Toyota will eventually bury them.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:12 am
The Volt is a good first start at a massproduced plug in but is only the begining. Think of it as the IBM pc, when they produced one it made them main stream not a toy. I believe, GM will do this with the Volt.
GM have played safe with the electric drive train, by keeping the electric drive train inboard and retained mechanical brakes, rather than use the electric motor as the braking system as well.
The battery technology improvements are moving fast, at computer development speed, 2 year cycle. The Silicon nano wire Li battery seems to be the answer and may give 7 to 10 times the capacity of the carbon Li battery. The Volt will not be using the carbon Li type battery as only last about 3 years and a 1000 cycles.
The better design is the Volvo C30 rechargable, with in wheel motors/brakes and will beat the Volt on packaging and performance.
So the Volt may be first to market but unless GM evolves fast, they will be beaten by better designs.
The indicator of what can be achived is the PMLFlightlink concept car, based on a BMW mini, this can do 400miles on a charge and 900 with the APU running at 80 mpg and it has no comprimises. Top speed 150mph 0-60 4.5 seconds total power 480kw and 2800 nm of torque.
August 19th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
To Dan, # 2,
I always wondered if you have to come up with a Morse law for Battery technology, what would that be?
Ash
August 20th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I’d like to be more optimistic about GM’s Volt, but, based on how they handled the EV-1, I’d say the Japanese automakers are going to bury them alive! The problem is that GM is way too ‘entrenched’ with the oil companies to EVER put their customers ahead of conglomerate interests.
The fact that, after the demise of the EV-1, Exxon-Mobile purchased the ONLY Ni-Cad battery company in the U.S. was a bad omen for the future. Then, apparently, GM decided to ’sole source’ future battery purchases with this company and, now, can’t find suitable ones for the Volt! Gee, what a surprise!
I understand that they went looking for some in the Orient, but soon learned that ALL of the battery companies over there have already signed contracts with the Japanese. And so GM tells us that they’re waiting for the technology to catch up with their demands.
That’s GM-speak for “We blew it - We know it - and we’re going to blow smoke while we figure out what to do!” Good Luck, GM stock holders - you MAY want to sell your stock now rather than wait for it to depreciate any more than its already pathetically-low value!
Sheesh!