Chevy Volt Update from Chief Engineer: “There’s Nothing Standing in Our Way”
Andrew Farah is the Chevy Volt’s chief engineer and has just given the Associated Press an update on the vehicle’s progress.
He noted that at one point, the Volt project fell 10 weeks behind schedule when the initial battery pack deliveries were delayed, but assures us that the delay been "erased" as work on mechanical parts took place during that time.
The report states that the current battery packs are powerful enough to run the prototypes, but that "dozens of issues remain." Some in particular are figuring out how the car will "handle the batteries’ weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels."
However, Farah states the project remains on-track to hit the 2010 deadline saying "at this point, there’s nothing standing in our way of continuing to do what we said we’re going to do."
He notes that the battery packs will cost $10,000 to replace, and that the production Volt is a little larger than a Honda Civic and looks more like a normal car than the concept. He says though "it’ll have a similar set of visual cues and some of the features that were on the concept car."
The article also reports GM plans to sell 100,000 Volts in 2012.
Source (AP )
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- Exclusive: Interview/Podcast With Chevy Volt Chief Engineer on Current State of Volt Development
- Chevy Volt Chief Engineer on the Volt’s Electric Power Steering System
- E-Flex/Chevy Volt Battery Lab Tour and Update
- New Interview with Chevy Volt Chief Engineer Nick Zielinksi: Part I
- New Interview with Chevy Volt Chief Engineer Nick Zielinksi: Part II
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August 13th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
this sounds pretty optimistic for an engineer….
August 13th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Awesome! maybe when i get out of college there will be a couple of used ones (or dare i say it- affordable new ev’s!!) to buy. i have a plan- first its a smart (maybe a yaris) for about 10 years and then when ev’s are cheap enough to where i can afford one i’m making the switch and boy will it be eLeCtRiFyInG!!!
August 13th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
…considering the newness of this venture and the fact that at this level it has never been done before, it sounds pretty optimistic for anybody…
August 13th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
OK…I recall the initial staement when the Volt was first introduced that the vehicle price would be under $20,000. Then I read $30,000; then it was published it may reach $40,000??? Of course, those with the money will jump on board, regardless of cost. One way to kill the car is to price it so the average Joe can’t afford it.
I suppose a third or fourth generation runs will mass produce a car that is affordable. GM should remember the Volkswagon “Bug.” In the 30’s, Germany gave the “folk’s car” to the masses that most could afford.
Maybe I’ll have to wair until 2012 to afford the Volt. I hope old Bessie holds out ’til then, JL
August 13th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I just want to know what a normal car looks like. I think a Vette is normal!!! Wishful thinking, time will tell
August 13th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Given the transparancy of the Volt development, I think it so far safe to assume that he is being honest..GM cannot afford otherwise.
Go GM, GO VOLT!
August 13th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Great news. I guess GM will have to come out and tell everyone that things are OK about every 2 months to keep the “GM sucks and will never produce the Volt” crowd in check.
Whats up with the quote?
” are figuring out how the car will … mechanically transfer their (batteries) power to the wheels.”
I was kind of hoping they had figured this little tidbit out by now.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Volt will change the Auto Technology Market in the World.
In anticipation of its success, we should buy as much GM stocks as possible right now when it is relatively cheap.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
GM will get $40+K for the volt and they deserve it. They are producing what people claim they want. If people really want the option of being able to drive with zero oil use (an option for some), then GM is giving them the chance.
They will sell all they can make at 40+K the first year. There will be enough people who will pay the price. Given the basic dilemma of limited production and a basic understanding of economics tells us that GM will have little to no incentive to lower the price and asking them to lower it does not make sense.
People will pay the premium because they want to …
1. Be the first on the block with an electric
2. Be able to have the option of using zero gas
3. Support GM
4. It might actually drive like a sports car
5. It might be the eco-friendly thing to do for the rich.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
#8 Seyid,
I am with you. I think things will look good (at least for the stock price) when the Volt, the Cruze, the two-mode hybrid Vue, and the plug-in vue, and hopefully a two mode Mailibu are all in the news during 2010.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
“… looks more like a normal car than the concept”
That has to be one of the vaguest quotes I have head in awhile…
August 13th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I bet the AP would cry if the saw how many words you quoted.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
wait wait… they haven’t figured out how to “mechanically transfer their power to the wheels” from the battery yet?!?!
August 13th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Wow, 10,000$ to replace the battery. That’s a hell of a lot cheaper than I figured it would cost. For 16KW of power you can’t get lipo batts that cheap anywhere Even on Ebay from China.
SO, 10,000($/bat)t /150,000 (miles/battery warranty) = 6.67 cents per mile just for the battery plus another 2.33 (high estimate but over 10 years may be accurate) cents per mile for the electric = 9 cents per mile.
4($/gallon) / .09 ($/mile) = 44.5 miles per gallon equivalent.
Price wise this really isn’t any better than a fuel efficient car. BUT, that’s money flowing within the country as opposed to going overseas for oil. I’d pay extra for that.
Knowing that the battery will cost 10K to replace I really don’t think GM should try and sell this car for over $35K. The last thing they should do is price it out of the market.
By and large though this is pretty good news. 100,000 units in 2012! they really do think they have a home run on their hands don’t they.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
The more I think about this, it is good news to hear this from an engineer. He is basically saying, “Hey, we have a few issues to work out, but they are fixable issues.” Any car company can get a prototype to work, but designing for the same performance into a high-volume product takes a considerable amount of effort. Maybe all they got left is finishing that damn DFMEA (lingo for you other engineers out there).
August 13th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
As usual the article leave you with more questions than answers. Clarification on the price is one. Is that GM cost or my cost? What exactly are you talking about when you mention not knowing how the energy will be transfered? Etc etc.
The best part of the whole article to me is that if the battery cost about 10K then a fairly inexpensive E-flex car is possible even if it isn’t GM that gives it too us.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
From the article:
Some in particular are figuring out how the car will … mechanically transfer their power to the wheels.
I have a suggestion for Andrew Farah, the Volt’s chief engineer:
If your design team is having problems with figuring out how the Volt will mechanically transfer its power to the wheels, I suggest you contact the design team of the EV1.
The Ev1 team solved the so-called problem of how the power can be mechanically transfered to its wheels.
I believe they worked that problem out about 12 years ago; maybe you can borrow their notes.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Everyone is fussing about the Volt selling for $40,000. I don’think that’s what they have been saying. They say it will cost GM $40,000 to produce. However, they expect to lose money of the first batch, so,I expect that it will retail for $35, 000 and ,with a government rebate of $5000, that brings it down to $30,000. I think that’s more than most people would like to pay for a car.,but for something as new as the Volt, I think they will. Go GM!
August 13th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
At first I was a little disappointed that the production model is very different from the prototype, especially the “chopped windshield”…that made it look very cool…Now that i think about it, I’m glad it will blend in a bit. I want the car to be easily insured and not a car that will be a target for thieves…
August 13th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Quote From Article- “The Volt’s chief engineer is on a tight schedule to figure out how the car will handle the batteries’ weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels. That’s not to mention the list of issues that have nothing to do with the fact that the car plugs in to the wall for recharging.”
This is the reporter talking here and probably referring to issues discussed early on in development, but all are valid issues when you look at the details of each. I have seen articles written that screwed up basic information when the reporter was given a press release.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
As a design engineer myself, I think folks are being a little nit picky on what Farah’s working on now. The engineers tackled the hardest parts first, the parts with the greatest risk. This would’ve been the electrical drivetrain and subsystems. The fact they are moving onto holding the weight and transferring the load sounds like the high risk items have been solved and they’re into detailed design.
The only part that concerns me is where he discussed designing the car to handle the batteries heat. This can be difficult to solve if it hasn’t been considered from the beginning.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Glad to hear the vehicle is going to look like a normal car. This means it’s meant for the masses and not just George Clooney.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
If the battery costs $10,000 to replace, why would the new battery cost much more?
So $10,000 for the battery, plus around $20,000 for an ordinary fairly nice compact car — help me out here, but wouldn’t that indicate somewhere around $30,000?
I’m not counting amortization of the development costs; I would consider the development to be amortized over several million plug-in e-flex vehicles of all sizes and types over the next decade or so.
As for transferring the battery’s energy to the wheels, I suggest one or more electric motors… but then, how many and where? I’m hoping rear wheels, not in-wheel (too much unsprung weight). Twin motors, each driving one rear wheel through a half-shaft, would obviate the need for a differential; it could even incorporate some electronic traction-control features.
Rear-wheel drive, low center of gravity and polar moment of inertia due to the weight of the central battery pack, electric torque — this car could be fun to drive if they do it right.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
100,000 in 2012? Isn’t that better than what we have been hearing? Maybe we will get one in 2012. Didn’t we hear that the total would be 200,000 by 2015, or some such? Or was that 200,000/year by 2015? I am totally lost.
It would be really interesting to see a summary of GM’s latest production projections.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
From the article.
……..and that the production Volt is a little larger than a Honda Civic and looks more like a normal car than the concept.
————–
Yuk. The concept was beautiful. If they make this a normal looking car, does that translate into their usual bland looking car?
All the cars look the same to me. The concept was different. Really different. I was hoping that although they had to change the car, it would still stand out and look awesome.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Noel, # 24.
That is my recollection also. You know what? The price, number produced, dates, and so on have changed so much, we all need to take things with a grain of salt. Check that. A pound of salt.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
The estimate for the cost of the battery replacement of $10,000 is great if valid. $625 per KWH.
Still waiting to hear about a news guy driving a mule and about who gets the battery production contract. Tick tock, tick tock
August 13th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
It looks like they left the easy things until last. Electric motors are well understood and come in endless variations of size, power, etc. The cooling of the battery should also be relatively simple. pack in some properly sized water blocks, a pump or two and a radiator and you’re good to go. The same goes for handleing the batteries weight. It’s positioning is central simplifying things making the issue suspension that handles the extra weight. Another issue that is well understood and an issue of finding the best off the shelf parts.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
$30K or $40K? I think GM will easily sell the first 10,000 cars at either price. So considering GM’s current financial woes, why settle for $300 million when $400 million is in the bag?
Like any new technology, price will come down as volume goes up. You’re dreaming if you think a competitor will offer a cheaper Volt-equivalent in 2010. Maybe a cheaper substitute in 2010, but not an equivalent.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Now the only thing standing in consumers’ way is time a money.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
At $40,000 I can not afford to purchase a Volt. I have a Prius. I am #8 on the GM-Volt wait list.
Jonathan Cassidy
Prudential Manor Homes, REALTORS
August 13th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
If u guys go to hybridcars.com there is an interesting article about our very own Lyle naming him as the Volt’s number one fanboy. It is fairly interesting. Mostly entertaining though!
August 13th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Fahrvergnugen Fanboy, you asked…
“So $10,000 for the battery, plus around $20,000 for an ordinary fairly nice compact car — help me out here, but wouldn’t that indicate somewhere around $30,000?”
I think you’re ignoring the cost of the Volt’s160HP AC induction motor and motor controller. Probably need to add another $10K for that.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
#23 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says: “So $10,000 for the battery, plus around $20,000 for an ordinary fairly nice compact car — help me out here, but wouldn’t that indicate somewhere around $30,000?”
———————————————————————————————
The Volt is based on the Chevy Cobalt platform. The Cobalt has a sticker price of $15,000. Even if you figure in a few thousand for other stuff, the Volt should still cost less than $30,000.
I think GM is playing games with the price in order to get the government to throw in higher tax credits. I’m all for EV tax credits, but there should be a better way of making sure the bill passes in Congress.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
#33 Paul-R Says: “I think you’re ignoring the cost of the Volt’s160HP AC induction motor and motor controller. Probably need to add another $10K for that.”
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I don’t see any reason the electric motor should cost so much. Yes, the development costs will be high, especially for the controller code, but the unit costs will be low. There are no magnets in the motor. To my knowledge, there are no expensive materials required to produce the motor or controller. So my guess is that the motor & controller cost is much lower, probably closer to $1K for GM to build in volume.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
“Dozens of issues remain”?????
Please….the car should easily be able to bear the batteries weight and in fact, the weight of the battery should HELP the car’s performance…
Mechanically transfer the energy to the wheels? Huh? That would be the easiest engineering feat, IMO.
Dissipating the heat would be the only real issue that I can see, and this is quite easily rectified with ducted fans and external airflow during operation, etc. The Toyota RAV4 EV seems perfectly able to cool its battery pack…
What kills me is that GM acts as if it is reinventing the wheel. EV’s have already been done and we have the T-shirts….Just do what you did before…sheesh.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
The Volt’s production costs have been quoted at $40,000. Add dealer profit ($8k), tax, title, tag ($5k) and we’re looking at $53k off the lot.
Even if the General subsidizes the dealer profit portion (which is highly unlikely), the best we can hope for is $45k off the lot.
Don’t hold your breath on the tax credits.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
#28 Jeremy Says: “It looks like they left the easy things until last. Electric motors are well understood and come in endless variations of size, power, etc. The cooling of the battery should also be relatively simple…”
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Actually, AC induction motors are very complicated to control, so making the controller code work perfectly with the rest of the vehicle in all situations will probably take some serious man hours.
Battery cooling, and possibly heating in very cold temperatures, all this stuff has to be tested, then modified, then re-tested - it all takes time.
I think what Andrew Farah is saying is that there’s a lot of hard work yet to do, but that he doesn’t see any potential show stoppers left at this point - just a lot of man hours.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Dave G Stated…
“I don’t see any reason the electric motor should cost so much. Yes, the development costs will be high, especially for the controller code, but the unit costs will be low. There are no magnets in the motor. To my knowledge, there are no expensive materials required to produce the motor or controller. So my guess is that the motor & controller cost is much lower, probably closer to $1K for GM to build in volume.”
I doubt GM has much expertise for manufacturing AC induction motors in-house (yet). So I bet they will need to be purchased, just like the battery systems. I see 150HP AC induction motors selling on the internet (without controller) in the $5K to $19K range (see http://www.driveswarehouse.com). So an extra $10K for the 160HP motor plus controller doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. But I’m no motor expert, so it’s possible I’m missing something.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Lyle, excellent and informative post.
I understand the post to mean that the Volt is 2 years behind schedule.
Reading the section “”dozens of issues remain. Some in particular are figuring out how the car will handle the batteries’ weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels.” one is reading about big issues.
Related sections in the referenced article are similar. My guess is that the car is about 4 years from being for sale. It looks like it will take about 2 years to finished the design and engineering, because there will have to be completion of a tentative design, testing of its many new aspects, revisions, additional testing, etc. Further, these things interact, so when one changes, others have to be reconsidered.
Then it will take another 2 years to build the right factories and build some cars. (It is really not possible to build a factory to build something until one knows what the something actually is, in detail.)
Four years out also is more realistic for battery decisions, design,
and production. Obviously if they still are working on battery heating and cooling, which is complicated, suspension issues, which are complicated, and other issues that will take some time to resolve, completing the design is going to take a while, even for smart people who are working hard.
So when I read the phrase “at this point, there’s nothing standing in our way of continuing to do what we said we’re going to do.” I think of Alan Greenspan, who as chair of the US federal reserve was famous for saying things that had no understandable meaning. I assume the speaker is affirming that they are working on the problems and not affirming any particular timetable, just “continuing” as “nothing is standing in the way of” continuing, i.e., no one has told them not to continue, but not commiting to any particular dates for anything.
Four years is consistent with delays seen already. As Statik has pointed out, as all the milestones that were to have occurred by now have not, so things will happen someday, as development is “continuing”, but we know not when.
Let’s think maybe 2012-13 for the introduction of the Volt.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
$8K dealer profit? Maybe on a $200K car. Normal profit for a GM dealer is in the hundreds, not thousands. GM doesn’t even know exactly what this car will cost them yet, let alone what they will charge the public. I am betting that GM will sell the first generation for no profit, maybe even at a loss. Considering the demand, they probably won’t subsidize it too much. No car company knows what the retail cost of a car will be two years before production. There are still a lot of unknowns at that point, even on a ‘conventional’ car.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
#29 Paul-R Says: “Like any new technology, price will come down as volume goes up. ”
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While this is true for consumer electronics, it’s not typical for cars. Auto manufacturers typically introduce new types of cars at a lower price to get people to buy them, and then raise the price as sales start to take off. In other words, with cars, the manufacturer usually loses money on the new technology models at first. As an example, when the Prius was introduced, it was priced very low, and Toyota lost money on every Prius they sold.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
#39 Paul-R Says: “I doubt GM has much expertise for manufacturing AC induction motors in-house (yet). ”
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I believe the EV1 was the first car to use an AC induction motor, so GM does have some experience with this.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
RB stated
“My guess is that the car is about 4 years from being for sale.”
Are we reading the same article? He said they were 10 weeks behind, but they have made the time up. In the 4 or so years it takes to develop a new vehicle it is typical to be behind at times, and ahead at other times. You probably won’t hit every milestone, but as long as you hit the on sale date of Nov 2010 is doesn’t really matter. Also, they are not building a new factory for the Volt. It’s common knowledge that it’s being assembled in the Hamtramck plant. I’m sure they are already in the planning stage of converting the plant. Small details such as software control, and internal battery chemistry don’t really effect setting up the assembly plant.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
#4 Jack L
I agree…but this is “blank check” development project.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/13/gm-has-given-the-volt-team-a-blank-check/
August 13th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
#41
Look close at a dealer invoice next time.
There is “Back Door Money” called “HB” hold back. Usually an additional 3%
This goes to the dealer after the car is sold.
In addition to the sales profit from “Invoice”
8K is made on SUV’s and Pick up trucks all day long.
On a 200K car they make huge dollars and your sales guy alone gets at least that.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I know manufacturers make that kind of money on luxury cars and SUVs, but I didn’t think the dealers made anywhere near that.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
This read as extremely positive news to me. 100K in 2012, no major hurdles, and best of all $10K replacement battery cost. I, like others, wanted to see if the article hinted at retail cost or supplier cost, so I read the AP article and is says, “It would cost more than $10,000 to replace them.”
Not to rain on the parade but this says more than $10,000. I’m hoping Lyle got the $10K right and the article has it wrong but I think it is a misquote by Lyle. The isn’t necessarily horrible news, but it’s not the exceptional news that this thread indicated.
Late 2010 is still a long way away and many pricing issues will come and go by then along with other price sensitive market changes. You can be sure that pricing won’t be set until they close to selling the first vehicles. That price will roughly be where they believe the sweet spot of demand is for their production intent plus any government rebates in effect at the time.
My guess $33-35K + rebate
August 13th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
is that 33k guess with the rebate or without????
August 13th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
#39 Paul-R
“I doubt GM has much expertise for manufacturing AC induction motors in-house (yet). So I bet they will need to be purchased, just like the battery systems. I see 150HP AC induction motors selling on the internet (without controller) in the $5K to $19K range (see http://www.driveswarehouse.com). So an extra $10K for the 160HP motor plus controller doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. But I’m no motor expert, so it’s possible I’m missing something.”
While I agree with you that GM may purchase the traction motor from a supplier, I totally disagree that an internet search for AC motor pricing has any bearing on what GM will end up contracting to pay for the Volt’s motor. It will cost them significantly less than anything found online.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
#49 Bryce
“is that 33k guess with the rebate or without????”
My guess $33-35K + rebate = $33-35K without rebate (tax incentive)
August 13th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Soooo… Clearly they have an idea how to transfer the energy to the wheels because they have eflex mules driving around presumably on battery energy and not squirrel power or something else.
Soooo… I’m going to interpret that phrase more in context of dealing with the extra weight of the batteries such that they would need a more powerful motor to make the car faster.
Otherwise, I have 2 years to take advantage of the new smaller sized ice cream containers to lose some weight to make the car with driver go just a tiny bit faster. I’m going to consider that Plan B, however, since I’m not nearly overweight enough to make a dent in that kind of battery weight… 10 lbs, tops. 
Yeah, I know, I know, don’t burst my bubble, OK?
August 13th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
#44 Motown
Yes, we are reading the same article.
Yes, the Volt is 2 years behind the original 2010 introduction. At least, that’s my guess. Understanding how to transfer battery energy to the wheels is fundamental. Understanding how to heat and cool the battery is vexing. It will take a while. These are not small issues of detail. Think 2012.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
#37 Plug Free Volt
“The Volt’s production costs have been quoted at $40,000. Add dealer profit ($8k), tax, title, tag ($5k) and we’re looking at $53k off the lot.
Even if the General subsidizes the dealer profit portion (which is highly unlikely), the best we can hope for is $45k off the lot.
Don’t hold your breath on the tax credits.”
_____________________________
You are basing this on an assumption…that the extra costs you are citing will be extra and are not part of the final number that is put out. Dealer profit is most likely already factored into this “sticker price” As for tax, plates and registration…well, you are going to pay that for one vehicle or another no matter who manufactures it.
I also disagree about the tax credit for purchase of an electric vehicle. I do believe that there will be between $5000 - $7000 of tax credits for those of us who purchse this car.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news/companies/taylor_nissan_gm.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008081313
Interesting article
August 13th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I think the “mechanical power to the wheels” comment was a dumbed-down explanation for the journalist’s benefit. As DaveP says…I think GM is doing OK in that category.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Sell your Volt for a profit?
I just noticed in the google ads on this site someone is selling a die cast Volt on ebay with 2 hours to go its at $46 + mailing costs.
That’s a lot more than I paid for mine! But I’m not selling.
I actually got two, but gave the second to my Congressman with details about the Volt; just to bring to his attention.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
GM produced 40,561 Corvettes in 2007 and my local dealership had one in their showroom. If GM produces 100,000 Volts in 2012 (assuming the GM engineers have figured out how to make the wheels go around by then), I expect to see 2.46 Volts on the showroom floor. Of course I might not recognize them since they will look like a “normal car” which in my town means brown. I hate brown cars. I wonder if there will be a non-brown 500 mile BEV SUV on the horizon by 2012.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I think that the pricing numbers that GM has talked about have been MSRP / price to customer. So that would include dealer profit, but not taxes in USA. When numbers are quoted for prices in Europe is is more likely to include taxes.
I base this on a conversation that I had about pricing and marketing with Ed Peper (head of Chevy).
However, I think some states waive taxes for zero emission vehicles and/or electric vehicles and may do for Volt, and are more likely to if the federal gov offers rebates for plug-ins, because states often follow the lead of federal gov.
So don’t get carried away with what you add to the $40K.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
# 29 Rashiid Amul
Yes, I agree that the concept car was beatiful. However, it was designed to look flashy and get the public’s and media’s attention. It was NOT built to go 40 miles on a charge. The model didn’t take aerodynamics into account. In fact, I read somwhere that it had a high drag coefficient and poor aerodynamics.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
“little larger than a Honda Civic and looks more like a normal car than the concept. He says though “it’ll have a similar set of visual cues and some of the features that were on the concept car.”
I hope Bob Boniface has done his magic. In order to command a higher price (over $30,000 after rebate), people will want the car to be easily recognized and distinctive. Richer colors, for example, would be in order.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Well, I’ll wade in.
“He noted that at one point, the Volt project fell 10 weeks behind schedule when the initial battery pack deliveries were delayed, but assures us that the delay been “erased” as work on mechanical parts took place during that time.”
That is a pantload Chet.
You got nothing, absolutely nothing. And while were are at it, what ‘mechanical parts’ might that be? Like odd ‘one-off’ parts for the prototype? Or like real fabrication of machinery to build the parts that have already been spec’d up?
“Some in particular are figuring out how the car will “handle the batteries’ weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels.” Holy crap dude, the production line needs to be going in like 25 months to hit the deadline…that means done, fiinished, everything. You need to be done ‘engineering’ this car like yesturday.
You had to have a full working prototype like last year, working mules on the road now, and be fabricating the machinery to build it. You don’t even have a supplier, let alone a supplier that has a factory.
The ‘plan’ originally was a working prototype by the end of 2007. Working mules on the road last spring, a battery supplier already chosen and ramping up. Even by the most conservative estimates you are 8 months behind. GM has not hit one deadline, or even stayed remotely faithful to the concept in any manner, other than the fact that yes, you are still planning to put a battery in it.
There is so much contrivance in this guys speech it is unreal, “At this point, there’s nothing standing in our way of continuing to do what we said we’re going to do,” How many different ways could we take that? We said? The engineers? GM in general? Nothing standing in our way if everything goes perfect?
If you going to try and make us believe something, then you have to just come out and say it, “Yes, the General will get Volt’s into the customer’s hands in 2010,” if you can’t say that, then you say, “We are trying our best, but we have really underestimated this project.” Wagoner is going to make this guy and Lutz look like bigtime toolbags when he not only has to show the production Volt, but give a release date for it at the Autoshow.
“The early concept, a low-riding, sleek silver hatchback, was uncomfortable to sit in and not very functional, Farah said. The new five-door hatchback version more resembles a normal car, a little larger than a Honda Civic.”
Oh no! Uncomfortable to sit in and not functional! That is for sure the reason it is turning into a ‘run of the mill’ sedan now, nothing to rampant cost cutting and totally unrealistic dreams of the people who designed this thing? I’m sure no one would have wanted the ‘uncomforatble’ Volt…and no one thought to ’sit’ in the concept to check out the seats before showing it to the world. I don’t give us the ‘drag of the car’ nonesence either, what did one understood that if you make a box it isn’t going to do so well in the wind tunnel? I think they did. If you can’t make the spec’d 40 mile range with the design, you make the pack 17kW instead of 16, you don’t chuck the whole car out the window and built a Camry.
Ok, so I’m a little worked up, lol. Slippage is one thing, raising pricing is another thing, cutting costs is yet another, but BS really drives me nuts…and right now GM couldn’t be more full of it.
I think alot of people are realizing now that way we saw and were offered last year is total VAPORWARE. Check what this site was built on…the concept Volt into production with the promise that it would be near identical to the concept and under 30K, and to the customer in 2010.
Now we got a $45,000 Malibu that someone who isn’t a celebrity living in California might see in their driveway in 2013. Also, what’s with the ‘I like the Volt as a plain old sedan talk better’ cropping up? What? Are we really letting GM off the hook again? The Plug-in Prius is going to eat this car alive and leave it dead on the side of the road if they look the same. People aren’t going to pay a extra 20K for a 40 mile range over the Plug-In Prius’ 10 mile range.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
“it’ll have a similar set of visual cues (the bowtie) and some of the features (the plug) that were on the concept car.”
August 13th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
1) “…dissipate [the batteries] heat…” and “They must figure out how to keep the battery cool…”
I guess this:
“[The batteries] are not rising to too high temperatures even when tested without the cooling system”
(http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/10/latest-battery-pack-q-a-with-denise-gray-gms-battery-director/)
wasn’t entirely accurate.
2) “They must figure out how to … adjust the car’s suspension so it performs well while carrying a 400-pound battery pack.” Really? A civic-sized car +400lbs is what, about the weight of a Malibu? That is hard for GM? Moon shot indeed!
“…and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels.” These relatively trivial things that GM should have figured out long ago but claim as their problems (i.e. the stereo) are beyond belief.
3) “At this point, there’s nothing standing in our way of continuing to do what we said we’re going to do” That is a brilliant statement. Technically it says NOTHING about being able to ACHIEVE what they said they were going to do.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Although not quite as wound up as Statik, I agree with his last sentence 100%
If this car looks and feels like a Prius, then Toyota will have won.
That is not what 90% of the car buyers want.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I think people will pay a premium if the car is from GM and it looks sleek, fun to drive, and stylish. If it looks like a Prius, the game is over.
August 13th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
My feeling is that the design team still needs to work out the details. I agree with DaveP, the mules are running, and have been for months now.
For battery thermal management (batteries don’t want to be too hot or too cold), GM still probably has a great deal of testing and software to finish. My personal feeling is that the first batch of cars will go to places like CA and FL because they are warm climates, and this will give the design team another year to work on cold climate testing. At VoltNation, it was suggested that on cold mornings the ICE may start as soon as you enter the car to get the coolant up to temperature (the ICE, batteries, and power electronics will have a common cooling system).
Dealing with the weight of the battery pack may mean tweaks to the suspension system are required.
In summary, the drivetrain for the Volt is derived from the EV-1, and a similar unit is used in the Fuel Cell Equinox (of which 100 are now on the roads in Project Driveway). The battery packs are undergoing tests, but I believe enough data has been generated over the past 8-10 months so that GM can extrapolate the battery pack’s life. The rest is details: electric power steering, low power-draw auxiliaries, cost studies (LED’s vs. conventional lighting), etc.
As Andew states, nothing is standing in their way!
August 13th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
#66, MetrologyFirst: “I think people will pay a premium if the car is from GM”
Are you serious? Nobody seems interested in paying a premium for a GM car today.
August 13th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
#59 Mark
I forgot to add ADM “Additional Dealer Markup” which happens to be a very popular add on with the Z06 (at the tune of about $10k).
At $50k, my only option would be to lease the Volt.
Looks like I’m SOL…
August 13th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
62 Statik:
Feel better?
Unless you have actually been in the GM design center I’m not sure anyone knows where the project is at but in my experience engineers are rarely on the hype machine bandwagon or BS artists. If anything 99.9% of the engineers I have dealt with give you ridiculously long time horizons for things.
They have mules nailed which include battery packs, drivetrain, and electric motors…they are now on integration. The biggest hurdle, batteries, has been finalized.
Just because they don’t tell you that they have a battery manufacturer doesn’t mean they don’t have one.
For instance…how many people here know that Enerdel is breaking ground to double their production capacity?
August 13th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Statik… why do you react like this now… you have been monitoring this site more then anyone else…. well may be not as much as Headler… but still…
Once again you just feel you can bully your point around….
Me, all I know is they seem to leap from one issue to the other… You should consider how far they have come since 2007 and they have 24 months ahead of them… The next year will be mostly testing and making sure they have the best optimized integration of all the elements, but all those elements are KNOWN.
No more R&D, it is about execution from this point on. Is it risky, sure it is. But for the first time in many years, GM trying to not only better themselves but also get ahead of the competition and for that they should be salute.
If you stopped believing in this car, so be it. Just pass on, we get it… you don’t believe GM can survived the next few months and you don’t believe they can build this car… we got that, we got that from your first post here… sure you can be funny… but now you are just being childish.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Statik…Statik…Always the naysayer….
Engineers, at least good ones, aren’t the smoke and mirrors type of people. I know, I am one. The BS usually comes from the business end of a corporation.
I’m not getting where you get this “8 months behind” statement. They originally said they would have mules on the road by Easter of this year. Sure, they missed it, but only by a few weeks, not 8 months. Anyone who has been on a big project knows that these things happen. They are NORMAL. Sometimes you get behind, sometimes you get ahead (but more often, it’s behind).
I for one am very excited about all the news that’s been coming out about the Volt recently. And I do feel that plenty of people will pay the extra money to go 40 miles all electric over the Prius’ 10 mile AER. I know I will. The Volt offers something that the plug in Prius doesn’t, and that is the ability to use ZERO gas. I have a 10 mile commute one way to work every day. With the Volt, I will use ZERO gas. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Can’t say that for the plug in Prius.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
I still don’t understand why they just didnt bring the ev1 back years ago and would have had all these years to make it better, its what most of us wanted
August 13th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
hi its the other jeremy.. the one that cant spell and has bad grammer .. lol
lets see before they refined the combustion engine in germany late in the 1900s? cars were made only with crude battiers and electic motors…. They put that engine in a car.. replacing the 1 and only part.. the engine . cars sure got more complex but how it transfers the enrgy to the wheels is the exect same transmision and the axle. .ectra even jay leno has a early 20th century example u can prolly google it ..
As ugly as a normal sedan but nearly 4x more expensive hahaha that is kinda a joke right? guess we are gettin leather seats too? lol
oh wait thats an option..we will get onstarinstead .. yay…not..
soo yes gm its not rocket science
i mean if the local garages are changing from muscle car restores .. to electric car conversions.. guess what? IT REALLY IS THAT EASY sure theym ight not have the best heat disipation or the best bang.. or the best looking/ they weigh more but hey…
YOU have to admit.. its minor things u can iron out pretty fast when u have a huge budget and a experienced team .. that worked on EV1 …. that reminds me.. didnt u learn how to transfer the energy THEN? oh thats right we arent suppose to remember that huh?
ranting done.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
#73 Mike
I’ll say it for everybody Mike. Give it up on the EV1. Go watch “Who Killed the Electric Car” for the 17th time while the real world passes you by.
I think Statik is starting to have an influence on me.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Statik #62
And IIRC you once stated that all EV manufacturers will soon be out of business because all the Chinese have to do is hook an electric motor up to a skate board like your kid’s toys.. and in your own words this whole thing is just that simple.
Amazin’ aint’ it ?
August 13th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I liked the prototype look.. even if it wasn’t good for drag….wait.. I guess that doesn’t go well with this car.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Looks like a normal car, not like the prototype? HUGE MISTAKE! If the correct drag wasn’t there, so what! Even your new TV ad shows the prototype. A lot of the excitement could fall by the way side. The prototype is what you’re showing, what everyone is excited about, and now GM is going to offer a normal car? Mr. Lutz, what are you thinking? I may even have to take my name off the waiting list.
Mr. Lutz, go with the excitement you’ve generated and you’ll sell 100,000 Volts in 2010 instead of by 2012! You could be true hero, but only if you stay with the original course. Give it more thought, everything is working out on or ahead of schedule, this is mo time to be “normal.”
August 13th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Dave G said…
“I believe the EV1 was the first car to use an AC induction motor, so GM does have some experience with this.”
Right, but did they manufacture the EV-1 motors themselves or just buy them off the shelf? I’d be willing to bet they bought them, because that would have been much cheaper, even at $10K each. I can’t believe GM would create an expensive manufacturing line for a few hundred EV-1 motors. So they have experience USING these motors, not designing and manufacturing them. Hence, I bet the Volt motors (at least initially) will all be purchased. And sure they will get a good discount due to their buying power, but I don’t think they’ll get a $10-$15K motor+controller for $1K. Guess we won’t know for sure unless GM shares this info with us.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
$10,000 for a battery pack now but what about in 2015. The cost should drop with mass production. After market manufacturers will drive down the cost further. I hope that when the battery needs replaced they will be much cheaper and better.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
#37 Plug free volt
“Add dealer profit ($8k), ”
Dude when is the last time you bought a car? Dealers are lucky to make $500 bucks on the sale price. Most of the money made by dealers is on the financing & dealer holdback.
(dealer holdback is when the manufacturer builds in a couple of hundred into every car’s invoice price and they give it to the dealer at the end of the month.)
August 13th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
#62 Statik:
Awww, give Farah a break. He’s not really a corporate mouthpiece (good thing, too!
he’s an Engineer. If I translate from Engineerspeak, I’d hazard a guess he’s in “cautiously optimistic” mode. That means, they came across all kinds of issues which they didn’t expect and feared would totally blow out the project. Now, however, they think that can get this thing out the door in something close to form. It totally sounds like he thought things were going to be MUCH worse than they are, now! 
(I remember watching some video or reading a story earlier in the year about the problems with the battery packs… They had all kinds of problems with the coolant, initially, with it shorting out the packs, etc. The engineers seemed pretty depressed at that point… I think Farah’s comments reflect the “story so far…” especially when he mentions the cooling.)
And this guy must really, really want to make this car. GM totally burned him on the EV1. I mean, if you think it was hard on the owners (leasees) to get their cars crushed, think of what it must have been like for him! They crushed his baby. That’s like the worst thing you can do to an Engineer. Frankly, I’m still kind of amazed he even took the Volt job. They must have really, really made a good case or at least promised him there would be no crushing involved!
I kind of read between the lines in what he said (obviously no guarantees here) and I think they may have encountered some additional issues with the weight of the batteries and the structure of the car. Basically that battery pack is going to have to be a structural member of the car. And the delta platform was for small, light cars. From what I understand, it has kind of a rudimentary suspension setup in the rear, what with no independent suspension or anything. That’s a lot of rearward weight with that battery pack for the delta not to mention it cuts a big trench all over the bottom platform of the car, normally where most of the strength is. He made a couple comments about weight and suspension and now I’m wondering if that may be trickier to make work well than the electric drive is, even. Just a thought.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
The electrics on this are going to be much more difficult than engineering the mechanics. The mechanics in one form or another have been around for 100+ years.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Statik,
Stick to the earnings reports.
Your 8 months is way off. I thought we would of heard about which battery supplier they choose by now, but i think more like 2-3 months is more realistic.
Nice rant though.
LOL
August 14th, 2008 at 12:28 am
In this case it is clear that this chief engineer is acting as a corporate mouthpiece as:
1) He is talking to the press.
2) He is talking in vague generalities and general bull (see: remaining shortlist of major challenges includes solving the age-old problem of making a suspension that will work on a car the weight of a Malibu).
August 14th, 2008 at 12:30 am
“the production Volt is a little larger than a Honda Civic and looks more like a normal car than the concept.”
There we go, now I know I will NOT be purchasing a Volt. I was interested in the way the concept car looked and now it’s going to look just like an “every day car”. Way to go GM, you just lost a customer once again. Now is the future and new cars need to look like the future and not the past. I’m tossing in the towel on GM.
Dave
August 14th, 2008 at 12:34 am
72. Will,
You are going to pay a $20,000 premium to avoid using 162 gallons of gas/year (assuming 20 miles/day and 45 MPG for a Prius)? You are a better/richer/more foolish man than I.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:40 am
#62 Statik - “I don’t give us the ‘drag of the car’ nonesence either, what did one understood that if you make a box it isn’t going to do so well in the wind tunnel? I think they did. If you can’t make the spec’d 40 mile range with the design, you make the pack 17kW instead of 16, you don’t chuck the whole car out the window and built a Camry.”
Oh my. You didn’t need to look much further than the overly large and hence high rolling resistance wheels to know the production car would not be like the concept.
Contrary to what you’re suggesting, a slightly larger battery pack can not compensate for bad aerodynamics. A lot of people think a BMW M3 or 325i are nice looking cars. Their CdA is around .66. So what would happen if the Volt had a CdA like that rather than the “better than a Prius” CdA which Lutz says it will have. (The Prius CdA is .26).
Let’s see, at 80 mph in the “Vroom” Volt you’d be using 320 Wh/km. (Assuming a resistance rolling coefficient of 1.6% with smaller tires). You could draw half of the 17kWh battery pack, which means you could go a grand total of 16 miles on a fully charged battery. Not terribly impressive.
What about the “this is not a concept” Volt? In this case (once again assuming 1.6% RR) you’d be using 167 Wh/km. Drawing half of the 16kWh battery pack you’d now be able to go 48 miles.
So would you rather get 16 miles on a larger pack or 48 miles on a smaller pack. There’s a big difference. At some point you have to ask yourself if you want an aerodynamic car that eliminates gas or a car you like to look at. There are some trade-offs.
[Sometimes I press the wrong button on a calculator. If you want to check: Tire resistance is just the resistance coefficient * mass * gravity or .016 X 1700 kg X 9.8 m/s^2. Air resistance is just CdA * Velocity^2 or, in the case of "Vroom" Volt, .66 X 36.66 m/s^2. Add those together -- 887 + 266.5 -- and multiply by velocity -- 36.66 -- to get 42,305 Watts. To get watts per km divide the watts expended by the distance traveled in that hour -- 42,305 /132 = 320 W/Km. To get range just divide the available Watts from the battery pack by the watts used per kilometer - 8500320 = 26.56. Convert to miles.]
August 14th, 2008 at 12:56 am
#87 GXT
The people I know who have bought a Prius paid around $29,000. Gas savings would be around $1100/yr, assuming gas prices are flat over that period. Over ten years that would be $11,000. Plus you’re talking about 0-60 in nine seconds versus eleven seconds.
Not a steal but not crazy. It really does depend on the performance and the reliability of the Volt. Both work. It’s just that the Volt’s technology is a lot more interesting.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:38 am
DonC - impressive little gedanken there! Though I believe there are motor controller efficiency losses too.
P.S. BMWs have a CdA of .66? Here’s a wikipedia page of some examples of car models with drag coefficients:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficients
Thanks for the fun thought experiment!
August 14th, 2008 at 6:14 am
This is why an engineer should never do interviews. My interpretation (as an engineer) is that they still need to tune in the suspension and battery cooling system. Most on this board seem to interpret this as GM doesn’t know how to make the car handle or cool the batteries. Despite what most are saying, it sounds like you would prefer to have sunshine blown up your rears. If you think this type of vehicle is so simple then go make one in your garage and shut up already.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:19 am
EV1 Series Hybrid, developed in 1999
The series hybrid prototype had a gas turbine engine APU placed in the trunk. A single-stage, single-shaft, recuperated gas turbine unit with a high-speed permanent-magnet AC generator was provided by Williams International; it weighed 220 lb, measured 20 inches in diameter by 22 inches long and was running between 100,000 and 140,000 rpm. The turbine could run on a number of high-octane[citation needed] alternative fuels, from octane-boosted gasoline to compressed natural gas. The APU started automatically when the battery charge dropped below 40% and delivered 40 kW of electrical power, enough to achieve speeds up to 80 mph and to return the car’s 44 NiMH cells to a 50% charge level.
A fuel tank capacity of 6.5 gallons and fuel economy of 60 to 100 mpg in hybrid mode, depending on the driving conditions, allowed for a highway range of more than 390 miles. The car accelerated to 0-60 mph in 9 seconds.
This always burns me up when I know this was developed successfull in 1999 with Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. Sounds awfully familiar doesn’t it? Why isn’t something similar done today? better MPG, existing design, it is so frustrating this isn’t more known, and GM claims to be losing so much money on development, when this already EXISTS.
I still love the Volt, and want to buy one, but Jeesh, GM if you already had this developed, talk about pissing away development money when you are hurting for cash.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:22 am
The Volt design is the future. The concept was a shadow of the camaro right out of the late 1960s. Moving forward in the future, it is probably wise to cheat the wind as much as possible (think airfoil) and not waste gas pushing a blunt object through the air at 65 mph just so it looks good to some.
I for one prefer the aerodynamic look. I spent 9 years working in a wind tunnel facility so maybe I am biased. But it just does not make sense, when you are trying to propel around efficiently, to not consider the aerodynamics.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:47 am
#62 Statik
You are right on all points except that you are too optimistic. The car is not just 8 months behind, it is 2 years behind. Let’s be real.
On NPR this morning at 5:30 am (9/14), one of the lead items was how GM had been proclaiming the Volt for 2010 BUT now their lead engineer had ADMITTED that dozens of issues remain. So the professional reporters got the message loud and clear.
The flashy people at GM did not want to tell us this truth themselves, so they sent out Mr. Farah to prepare us for the schedule changes to be announced later.
This post is very good in the sense of being informative, but it is a highly negative item for anyone who thinks twice about it. It brings back all the old wounds of whether GM is actually serious about building the Volt, or just wishes to have some green vapor as a distraction from all their bad financials.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:51 am
RB, I missed the point that it is 2 years behind.
I certainly hope you are wrong. I doubt my car with 167,000 miles on it will make it another 4 years.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Another thing to consider.
Generally the news reported is wrong. If you know anything about a subject and then read a reporters take on that same subject (after his investigative report), you will find that in the majority of cases, the reporter is either plain wrong, gives the wrong impression, or simply misses the point altogether.
I have found this many times. I carefully read a report on cancer in the paper and then talk to the oncologist at Johns Hopkins (who I chat with on a routine basis), and they tell me that the report is hogwash.
In the nuclear industry, I see the same thing. How many times have you seen the video about the leak at TMI in 1979 and they show steam coming out of the cooling towers.
The moral of the story, we should not put too much stock in any news blurb. Espeically from the AP.
I for one will give GM the benefit of the doubt and assume they will make a car that will be in some showrooms early in 2011. Maybe even a few in late 2010.
August 14th, 2008 at 6:57 am
#63 In fewer words than statik, akojim has things about right
“it’ll have a similar set of visual cues (the bowtie) and some of the features (the plug) that were on the concept car.”
Funny, but sad. I really wanted the car.
The dream evaporated as the sun dried up the vapor.
There is no car there.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:20 am
Just a few thoughts:
1. A few months ago, everyone was saying “just give us an electric Cobalt!” But now, when we are told that the production car will have to have more aero, it is all about “we are betrayed!!!” Make up your minds, people. Until we see the finalized version, keep your shorts on!
2. I would have to guess that the last thing an engineer wants to do is be interviewed by the press. Engineers are like the HAL computer from the movie “2001″. They are programmed to tell the truth, becuase that is what they have to do to be good at their jobs. But then management tells them to go talk to the press, but not to give out any information. They can’t handle it. I will bet his one “good” suit was completely drenched in sweat that day………….
3. Discussing price is a complete waste of time. When you see the car, test drive the car, and then see the price, you can make up your minds if you want to buy it or not. It really is that simple. Declaring a car to be dead 28 months before the first one is in a showroom seems kind of premature, don’t you think?
4. Statik, I think you need to take some time off, like nasaman has. You are letting this site get under your skin, and that is not a good thing. Put all the stock portfolios down for a day or two. Call Tag and make an appointment, or just take your kids to the park and get on the swings for a while. Otherwise, you are going to blow your top over things that you have absolutely no control over!
OK, off to work now…..
August 14th, 2008 at 7:24 am
#91 Joe O’Brien
Right on! I have been saying the same for years. GM could have resurrected that series hybrid at any point over the last 9 years but simply refused. The question is why?
Here is a link to the car in a show at Beijing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GMEV1serieshybrid.jpg
August 14th, 2008 at 7:29 am
#91 - Joe O’Brien
Right on! I have been saying and thinking the same for years. The technology is known and here and ready to go. Why do we have to wait when the concept was proven in 1999? GM has pissed away 9 years, inexplicably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GMEV1serieshybrid.jpg
August 14th, 2008 at 7:30 am
#88
You have your formula for air drag wrong, the power to overcome drag is:
Pd = Fd*v = 1/2 * p*v^3*A*Cd
Power to overcome drag = 1/2 * Air density * Velocity^3 * Area * Coefficient of drag
For your numbers, assuming a area of 2.5m^2, no clue if that is right heres what would happen:
.5 * 1.293 kg/m^3 * 36.66^3 * Area (2.5 m^2?) * .66
= 52.5 KW of power to overcome the air drag
8kwh / 52.5kw = .15 hours of operation at 82mph (36.66m/s)
.152 hours * 82 MPH = 12.5 miles driven with the high coefficient of drag
More realisticaly the car is going to have about what the prius has? (.26 according to you)
Pd = .5 * 1.293 kg/m^3 * 36.66^3 * 2.5 m^2 * .26
= 20.7Kw of power to overcome the air drag
8kwh / 20.7kw = .386 hours of operation at 82mph
.386 * 82 = 31.7 miles driven at 80 mph
If you take the MPH down to 75 then you get 37.8 Miles of range
I was quite surprised how close this is to the predicted range, as I dont know the area or the real coefficient of drag. You also lose about 5% of your range cause rolling resistance. Anyways, the point is that the Aerodynamic drag has a huge effect on the range of the volt, whether you like to admit or not. The engineers arnt lieing to you when they have to do everything they can to bring it down. This is part of the reason why the little city EV’s can drive for 100 miles, is because they arnt driving very fast so they get the most out of their kwh.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Jim I , #97
An electric Cobalt at $25K is different than a electric Cobalt at $40K. A $25K electric Cobalt I would buy. A $40K electric Cobalt I wouldn’t. I think that is the point.
Everything else I agree with. I think many of us can use a break.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:35 am
“”"That is my recollection also. You know what? The price, number produced, dates, and so on have changed so much, we all need to take things with a grain of salt. Check that. A pound of salt.”"”"
I haven’t paid a whole lot of attention to the dates and production milestones they predicted because it is all jibberish to me. For example: 10,000 in 2010??? does that mean 10 thousand in 2 months? 100k in 2012??? is that in the stupid car year calendar which starts in 2011? Who knows they only quesion you need the answer to is when are they going to build YOURS!
The only question I have if it is even relevant is when will this be mass produced among most of their products because I don’t want a Volt. Not in the market for a car.
I am assuming that Ford or Toyoto will build something for me before GM does. GM apparently got the idea first and 2010 implementation is cool but from what I hear the spread of it throughout other GM lines will be too slow. Surely someone else will offer something I want to buy before 2014?!?!?!?!
August 14th, 2008 at 7:39 am
#99 Rashid Amul Agreed. Let’s take a break.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Just want to say, I am feeling alot better today, lol. I got a little long winded yesturday in #62. I guess because I still have a personal attachment to the concept to some degree I get overly ‘animated’ from time to time. I don’t believe anything I said was out of line, but the delivery was a little direct.
Comments seemed all fair in response to it, I would expect strong reactions. My answer to most, ‘time will tell all truths’ I guess. I hope I am wrong honestly. I will gladly admit I was in error when you are posting pictures of yourselves in your Volts in 2.5 years. (Bookmark this one, hehe).
#76 Grizzly
“Statik #62: And IIRC you once stated that all EV manufacturers will soon be out of business because all the Chinese have to do is hook an electric motor up to a skate board like your kid’s toys.. and in your own words this whole thing is just that simple. Amazin’ aint’ it ?”
I do believe the third world takes this business, no secret there.
However, the statement, “that all EV manufacturers will soon be out of business” is just not factual. I never said soon and I didn’t said ‘the Chinese’ hook up a electric motor to a skate board. Heck I don’t believe anyone is even putting out a EV ’soon’ in North America, letting alone driving someone else out, lol.
What I did say, is they’ll produce the battery/components and then stuff it into someone like Tata’s frame and sell it for cheap…and that someday makers of things like electric scooter’s could get into this business.
Here is my actual quote for reference:
“…why should “future me, 15 years from now” buy a $25,000-$30,000 Malibu/Camry/Accord when my neighbours $5,000 Tata build platform has a $700 Briggs & Stratton electric engine and a $5,000 25KwH pack? His $9,700 EV goes 150 miles on a charge, he doesn’t pay for gas, it should be virtually maintenance free for a decade and his 0-60 time is probably like 6 seconds.”
August 14th, 2008 at 7:54 am
#97 Jim I:
“Statik, I think you need to take some time off, like nasaman has. You are letting this site get under your skin, and that is not a good thing”
I think your right.
I think maybe I will take a day off with RB, Rashiid, Nasa and others. I think we are all kinda bummed out….and it’s too nice a day to sit in front of the computer and be bummed over, ‘things we can’t control’
/good advice, ttyl
August 14th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Has anyone ever thought that this may be GM’s government bail out strategy? Look we tried to build this revolutionary car but it is just too hard and it ate up all of our cash. Now we are broke and can’t pay our workers. Uncle Sam…. Do you really want us to lay off all of these people? After all the whole reason why we went under was to try to get America off foreign oil dependence isn’t that worth a 4 billion dollar loan…I mean grant… I mean gift? After all you did it for the airline industry and they didn’t even try to get America off oil dependence.
Boy I’m feeling very cynical today. Despite my comment above I really hope GM succeeds.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Nice work dude.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080812/tc_nm/volt_list_dc
August 14th, 2008 at 8:11 am
#62 Statik….
Put me down as aonther who does NOT wish to accept the Volt as a plain old sedan! … do we still expect a release of this design in Sept? That could play a huge role into my continued level of interest here…
#88 DonC
Nice math dude …. that stuff helps keep me coming back here for sure. Thanks for the lessons…good stuff
Anyhow….to continue on my distain for the plain old desgin….
Color me as another fan trying to get over the death of the concept… I will continue to try to focus on the fact that this is more about electrification of the car than how it looks…although its just not as exciting, it should be… but for me its just not as I have always been a ‘car guy’ who likes to ‘drive’ cars….
I’ve never owned a GM product but they sucked me in with this Volt concept and now I’m here…..ready to ride this out for the next 4 to 5 years….ugh
Currently driving a 3-series BMW w/ 122k miles….with about 100mi commute…hmmm….BMWs have been known to go well over 200k miles right ?? … my fingers will be crossed… maintenance might be the thing that gets me and I’ll probably re-up w/ another slightly used BMW…
The question is… when the time comes, will I be willing to give up the “ultimate driving machine” for a plain vanilla sedan from GM ???
The Volt better ‘drive’ well or else I’m gonna feel cheated …. oh wait the Volt is electric (I already forgot for a second) …. ah, who cares its at least 4 years away from now anyways…
August 14th, 2008 at 8:13 am
… mechanically transfer [the batteries’] power to the wheels.
This is all controlled by software.
It can only really be done with the actual vehicle on a test track like Tesla did. It’s also where I see lots of illegal ‘mods’ happening, reducing 0-60 time etc. I see no show stoppers here.
However, it is well past July and Lyle still has not had his drive in the mule yet. As Noel says. Tick tock, tick tock.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I think the fact that “a couple dozen” issues remain is d**n good. As to the “how to deliver the battery power to the wheels, I think he is referenceing that they are now selecting the CORRECT motor. Like they had to do with the ICE. They need the lightest, conversion efficient motor with enough torque to work right. Not that they do not know how to transfer..SHEEESH!
Mules are out.
Remember that it is unlikely that the mules are all the same, they will be testing the various possible contending configurations, they will have the same ICE now though as the 1.4l has been selected…That was likely harder than selecting the electric motor.
“How to handle the weight..” Look folks..GM is NOT concerned about how MUCH they weigh here, but where they get positioned, how it affects performance, cornering etc…Lets face it, they could put them d**n near anywhere, but the VOLT has to look and feel like a regular car, less the engine noise for the most part.
It has to corner well, the balance front to back, etc..you all rad WWAAAYYY to much into simple statements…K.I.S.S.
He is an engineer 1st and foremost, and hes he has to play some politico, but by and large, Engineers OUT OF HABIT. say what they mean and mean what they say..it is part of the job to be concise and clear and to the point (at least to other eng)
As to #17 Guy incognito
“I have a suggestion for Andrew Farah, the Volt’s chief engineer:… I suggest you contact the design team of the EV1″
He was part of the EV 1 team..which is why GM tapped him for the VOLT.
Relax folks..(especially statik..garab a six pack man and watch some sports..you’re gonna blow up!! from one Canuck to another)
All is well onthe Volt front…we got their 6.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:46 am
#103 Statik
Anyone that knows the history of electric drivetrains (EVs, PHEVs, & hybrids) in the auto industry can get frustrated by visiting this site too much. The naysayers could be correct…the Volt is just another EV1 that will be dropped. Yeah this time…GM may get a few more units on the road, but will it be supported. The dealers may be a hinderance. GM should significantly penalize any dealers that do not support E-REV or any of the hybrids.
Based on the history, GM has much ground to cover before I believe that GM will support the E-REV platform for the long term in mass production.
I would like to believe that E-REV platform is not just an “image booster”.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Jim I #97:
You gave some pretty good advice there in recommending taking some time off from this every now and then. I know it was directed to Statik, but that makes a lot of sense for most, if not all of us at times, (myself included). We are all literally at the fringe of this project day in and day out and GM and especially Lyle have been extraordinary in keeping us “lay people” up to date.
I hear and read things daily about this car, almost to the point of obssesion some times. Some times I hear things that make me happy, and sometimes I hear things that test my patience or make me angry. I feel for the most part things appear to be going as well as can be expected with this car. As many here point out on a daily basis, things are not perfect, (they never are or can be), but in a project of this magnitude, knowing a car such as this has never been done before, I think it has been going well overall. Point I’m getting at is, frustration at times is human and probably inevitable, and commonplace when you are as passionate about something as we are here. But don’t let this stuff get to you. The best things we can do as supporters of the Volt are:
1. Encourage GM staff and commend them for their efforts and hard work. I’m not saying we need to be cheerleaders, but to just give credit where credit is due.
2. Raise concerns to GM through this forum. Give suggestions, advice, etc., and then leave it in their hands.
3. Realize life isn’t perfect and neither are people. Problems arise, deadlines are missed, things go wrong. The sooner we accept this, the happier we will be.
4. Excercise PATIENCE. That’s a tough one. It helps to remember that the things that are the best and the most enjoyed, are the things worth waiting for. Many here have said or suggested for GM to just throw together an “electric Cobalt” or “dust off the old EV-1 prints and make that again”. I certainly wouldn’t want either of those really. I think that if GM is taking the time to make this car special, (and it appears they are), then it will be worth the wait.
5. Relax about the price, until we actually KNOW the price. We can argue that one until we are blue in the face, but it really is still an unknown to the consuming public as of yet and will probably stay that way for some time. GM understands the weight of this matter. Accept that at least first year models will be considerably expensive, but in all likelihood, their costs will eventually come down.
6. Criticism is O.K., but support it with helpful recommendations. Most posters on this site are very good with this.
7. Leave name calling for first graders where it belongs. Again, most posters here are good with that issue, but occasionally someone will call Bob Lutz or Rick Wagoner names. Thank goodness they seem very thick skinned. Name calling never gets anything good accomplished.
8. Remember that GM doesn’t owe us an explanation on anything. They are not required to give us sneak peaks of the car, or candid interviews, or Volt Nation conferences. Does it behoove them to do those things? Absolutely. But we quickly forget that there open candor on this whole project has been extremely unique and frankly unheard of. We actually have seen a vulnerable side of this Company, that is refreshing and yet scary at the same time. When something falls behind schedule, we instantly know about it. Who can say the same about any other Company making PHEV’s?
9. Occasionally, look at where we started vs. where we are now. When the Volt was first introduced, so many people called it “just Vaporware”. But now through a revolutionary grass roots effort that is this site that Lyle Dennis started, not only is the car under construction, but we actually have the ear of one of the largest corporations in the world here. There has never been a car project developed like this before.
10. When you start to feel frustrated or burned out, step away from the fray for awhile. Cool down and get perspective. Realize much of this is out of our hands for the most part. Let GM people do their jobs whether it be engineering, design, or PR. Give suggestions and support, and then get out of the way. Be thankful for successes, and helpful and supportive when problems arise. Lastly, ENJOY THE RIDE!!!
August 14th, 2008 at 9:34 am
#14 Gsned,
I like your analysis. Makes we wonder, though:
It’s $10k of today’s dollars to replace the battery. However, if the driver drives 40 mi/day every day, the battery will last ~ 10 yrs. Will a new battery really be $10k ten yrs from now? I doubt it.
Secondly, you adjusted electrical costs upwards but held gas at $4/ga over the same period. Who knows what price gas will be 10 yrs out?
– Pete
August 14th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I really wish that our government would help with resources and money to help all manufacturers in the production of these cars. I would much rather my tax dollars be used to help you guys finalize these type of cars than seeing my money go to wars, other countries, and sending space ships to Mars. Hey poloticians, here is something you can put our money too and get our dependancy on oil off of the Middle East.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:52 am
OUR WAIT LIST
=============
In 2 days it is up by 2000, that’s after Reuters and other media picked up on it. I also noticed that the web site was extra slow today.
Picking up more interest. Imagine if we got 1000 a day from now until release.