Bob Lutz Impressed with CNBC’s “Saving General Motors”
Last Wednesday, CNBC aired the hour-long documentary Saving General Motors . We covered it here and had a bit of fun dissecting it in the comments.
Apparently GM vice chairman Bob Lutz watched it too, and wrote a review on his blog.
Lutz wrote that he was "impressed with the balance, the fairness, and the journalistic integrity of the entire piece." He agreed with the show’s conclusion writing that GM needs people to "think of cars in showrooms, not museums."
Some of us here, including myself, were a little taken aback when reporter Phil LeBeau stated that estimates put the Volt’s price at $45,000. Since I have been told "closer to $40,000" by Mr. Lutz himself, I did some investigating on where that statement came from.
I emailed Mr. LeBeau about where he got that value, and he responded "we said on the show that those are estimates as of now. Clearly, much could, and likely will change between now and the Volt’s release in 2010 that will impact what the actual price winds up being."
I agreed in principle but further informed him that I’d been told it was closer to $40,000. Phil kindly forwarded me to the shows producer to whom I explained why I thought the $45,000 value was too high. He thanked me for the information.
To be sure, I also checked in with GM sources to see whether CNBC had actually gotten the number from GM, and I was told "no".
So, I still believe $40,000 is the number for now.
If you missed it, the show will air again tonight at 10 PM EST. We’ll see if the price quoted is changed.
Source (GM FastLane )
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- Saving General Motors
- A Word About the Volt with Fritz Henderson, CFO of General Motors
- Bob Lutz Says Tesla Motors Spurred GM to Build the Volt
- Lutz: First Volts Will Cost More than $30,000
- Laugh Break: Bob Lutz on Colbert Nation, Photovoltaic Roof Option Confirmed
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91 Responses to “Bob Lutz Impressed with CNBC’s “Saving General Motors””
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August 10th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I still think 40,000 is too high, but a govt rebate could make the Volt begin to approach affordability. I will definately get an extended warranty for the steering assist unit, however.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Speculaton, speculaton, and more speculaton…
If true, anyone with $40-$45K can buy a Volt. How will the Volt compare to other $40K-$45K vehicles?
August 10th, 2008 at 11:08 am
I’m #1 ? Woo-hoo ! (Does his little happy dance) Dance, dance, dance, ok, I’m done now.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:22 am
So he is satisfied ?
What GM should do to make VOLT more attractive for American buyers ?. Just make VOLT 100% made in America.
This is what GM shd do..
GM, Continental and A123 should jointly aquire Cobasys and manufacture A123 cells and do packaging there itself.
Advantages for GM:
1) Low initial cost of owning a battery plant.
2) Low cost of buying batteries from the joint venture including Nimh batteries for 2 mode hyrbids.
3) Monitor battery and battery packs quality more closely.
4) Get both VOLT and VUE batteries from the same plant and enjoy the economy of large scale production.
Advantages to A123:
1) Winning the VOLT and VUE battery contract.
2) Setup Manufacturing facility in USA with low initial cost.
3) Low transportation costs (No boats and no trucks) as manufacturing and packaging will be done at the same facility.
4) Make A123 batteries more attractive for other American automotive companies.
Advantages to Continental:
1) Winning the VOLT battery packaging contract.
2) Setup Manufacturing facility in USA with low initial cost.
3) Low transportation costs (No boats and no trucks) as manufacturing and packaging will be done at the same facility.
There may be lot of other advantages that I may not be aware of.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Thank you for following up on the pricing question Lyle.
pat—-
August 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
These Olympics were brought to you by Chevy.
Nice and all, but I don’t want a truck.
We make more than trucks.
Yeah, but I don’t want a Camaro.
We don’t make the Camaro anymore. Well, sorta. We’ll make one next year if you want it and gas prices aren’t $6 a gallon.
Uh huh. And whatever you make has the bottom half dipped in plastic.
You’re thinking of Pontiac. And they don’t do that anymore, either.
Okaaaaaay… I’m sure what you make us butt-ugly, designed-by-committee, rounded-off and boring.
Have you seen the Accord or Camry lately? Ewwww.
Yeah, I never bought them for their looks, though.
[Whips out reliability ratings and customer satisfaction testimonials]
Stop confusing me with the facts! My mind is made up.
August 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
GM must succeed with the Volt otherwise its goodbye to the US car industry. My guess is that by the time the Volt enters volume production, Toyota will have a Li ion plug-in Prius delivering equivalent performance for $10,000 dollars less. They could offer that a year earlier too - that is my fear. However I still think GM will sell all they can make especially if: a) it looks better and b) because it is American and because buying Volt is the patriotic thing to do.
When volume production really takes off then I think GM will be able to compete across the model range better on price and performance because the Series Hybrid will in the end prove superior to the Parallel Hybrid of Toyota.
Go Volt, go GM, go USA.
August 10th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Thanks for trying to bring some clarity to the price estimates for the Volt, but they are still clear as mud. ABC wouldn’t confirm or deny their source for price estimate and Bob Lutz didn’t dispell the $45K estimate. GM is probably still happy to have murky pricing information out there as they continue to gauge the market and try to push up the acceptable price point.
They shouldn’t be blamed for this, since it is part of their job. We should just be loud and clear AND REASONABLE about what pricing is acceptable.
August 10th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
If GM were smart, they would overcharge the Volt during the first year or two (where production is under 10,000/year). Just slap a “LIMITED EDITION” emblem on the side, add some chrome and nice wheels, leather seats, and a good interior, and sell it for $49,000. Early adopters will pay it. But early adopters and the rich dry up fast. By 2012, GM will need to make it a Chevy car (that is, a high volume, fair priced vehicle).
$27,000 is as much as I’m willing to spend BEFORE tax credits. Any more than that, and the potential fuel savings just isn’t worth the high price. And with gas prices dropping, that number keeps going down too.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
What are the chances that they haven’t picked a battery supplier yet because GM will use one and Ford will use the other one when they share the platform?
August 10th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
If it’s just a re-airing of the show, I’ve got to doubt that they’ll spend the time trying to edit what appears to be their own price estimate. Could happen, but they probably don’t see $5K as being as significant as potential buyers do.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
What will save GM is not the 2011 Volt. GM will stop bleeding when it begins to sell 2-mode lithium Ion plug-in hybrids. First the VUE followed by the Malibu, Aura, Enclave, LaCrosse, Vibe, G6 and Cadillac CTS. If they don’t know this they are a sad group. Those hybrids will be the cake; the Volt will be the icing. Without the sales of those 2-mode lithium Ion plug-in hybrids, they will not make it to 2011 at their current cash burn rate. I for one look forward to buying a 2-mode lithium Ion plug-in VUE.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
#7 Arthur Morrison
I agree about the Li Prius will easily compete with the Volt and be much cheaper. Prius sales will be 20 times the Volt. By the time Volt production ramps up the entire competition will have caught up. So GM is NOT leading anything here, the whole auto industry is moving in the SAME direction with or without GM. A lot of people on the blog are blindingly faithful to GM for whatever reason, but the truth is that GM is just FOLLOWING everbody else and their EVs will not be any better than the other makers. Most of the bloggers on this site let their emotion overtake what little intelligence they have.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
#13 Blind Faith
True, GM sheep on this site are not the sharpest tools in the shed, but at least GM still has some fans left. Hopefully the Volt will attract a few more fans for the General.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Blind Faith #13
You make the ridiculous assumption like so many that it’s “simple” to develop cutting edge technology, and that every manufacturer will have a Volt competitor in 2010. It’s even a stretch to assume that it’s easy to convert from hybrids to RE EVs. It’s not.
The auto industry as a whole is extremely reluctant toward change, and even slower to adopt. If these other manufacturers have competing vehicles on the market in 2013-14 it will be in large part because of the Volt, not the other way around.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
The idea of an electric vehicle is to get mainstream users into it and save on producing greenhouse gas emissions. The 40k pricetag prices the average joe out of this car and that is really the person that needs it. C’mon, you have to rethink this pricetag for sure, especially when Honda says that they will hold their price on the electric vehicle to around 23k. If you want to save GM then get with the game. I would LOVE to buy a Volt, and if the price were close to the competition then I would, but when the price disparagy is this wide, then I would definitely opt for the Honda.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Many cars today come in at $40,000. Look at Lexus, BMW, or Infiniti vehicles that are relatively small in size. With low gasoline prices, it’s quite easy to see why America flocked to SUV’s at the same price point (sure less luxury, but a hell of a lot more utility).
So if the Volt can have great performance (0-60 in less than 8 sec), good handling, upscale interior, and classy looks, its a competitor to these vehicles. Now add the low fuel costs, “green credits”, and attention grabbing style, and GM has a winner.
Another good reason to own a Volt is for fuel diversity. Most major utilities generate electricity from many different fuels. The reason for this is fuel diversity. If there is a drought and hydro power is low, they use other sources. Likewise, if the railroads have a strike and coal shipments are disrupted, they have other alternatives. Similarly, many commercial boilers are designed to burn either oil or natural gas, so they can use the fuel with the best pricing.
I forsee in the next 10 years or so (before we go completely electric), that many families will have a Volt and a gas-powered vehicle. If gas prices get ridiculous, they will use the Volt for most of their driving, however, if demand wanes (as we are seeing now) and gas prices stabilize, both vehicles will get good utilization.
A family with a “fuel diverse” garage will be more isolated from the gasoline price shocks, but will still be able to have another vehicle, perhaps an SUV, to carry more people and cargo, and to also provide 4WD for winter driving.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
#9
I am with you. I don’t want to pay more than $27000.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
You just don’t get it. Look at the vehicles that you mention. Lexus, BMW, and Infiniti are all upscale vehicles that most people can’t afford. This isn’t about supplying toys for the elite. This is about getting the average person into one of these vehicles. This is about turning a car company around. This is about potentially turning the economy around while reducing energy costs nationwide.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I’ll just repost my thoughts on this from a few threads ago:
Bob Lutz (on his GM blog) comments on the CNBC special, he says:
“I was impressed with the balance, the fairness, and the journalistic integrity of the entire piece. Our story is there, warts and all, but so are the things we’re trying to do to help this company survive and thrive in the future. The missteps we’ve made in the past were clearly spelled out, as are the challenges we face today. It’s no puff piece, that’s for certain”
..and he continues in the blog to rag on ‘a good bit’ of the ‘press reports ‘irresponsible speculation or uninformed opinion and bias’
Personally, while entertaining I think the special was about as easy on GM as it could be. Bob’s stamp of approval on it would seem to back that up.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/08/gm_on_cnbc.html
Interesting how Lutz posts, then the first 3 comments are all well written, all giving a full endorsement of GM and all are written in the first hour of posting. Then it goes 3 of 4 comments bad (2 ragging on your salaries and one ‘make better cars’).
/just a curious observation…it’s all part of seeing the glass half-empty
————————–
#61 Statik
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/08/lehman-oil-prices-have-peaked/
—————————
Other things of interest is the disclaimer at the bottom of the blog:
(If you haven’t left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won’t appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)
Odd how we finish up with two more sunshine posts, and the last one allowed through the filter practically asks Bob to marry him…then the thread goes into full lockdown…nothing for the past 48 hours.
“That is until Mr. Lutz joined GM. I’ve always been impressed with his career and accomplishments, and I believe he is one of the few “car guy” executive we have left”
“It took a few years for his magic to appear in showrooms but the list is impressive and growing with each model year…I believe they are once again going to prosper albeit with a smaller piece of the total global market. I also believe this period in automotive history with its monumental challenges will be studied in business classes around the world for years to come.”
…c’mon
August 10th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
This infomercial posing as a documentary was so obviously pro-GM it made me want to puke. If someone here really believes this wasn’t a sponsored GM show then you seriously need a checkup from the neck up.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
#13 Blind Faith
&
#14 Jonathon Ridgely III
Nice, come on a GM volt fansite and call everyone GM lovers, and stupid (what little intelligence they have).
I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention, but we have a very educated group here, with detailed experience in the engineering field.
As far as the Volt is playing catch up…… Maybe with non- ICE cars yes, but i don’t know of any other car makers that are producing a production electric car with a gas generator for range extension.
If you do let me know.
PS
Your stupid
August 10th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
A home run is all we ask - GM. Give us the Volt. We want it we wait for it and will not buy anything else until we have it. The truck guys will need a GMC - Sierra eREV. We can dig GM out of this mess if they will just undo the EV-1 mistakes of the past. 30 a day won’t get it. These vehicles must be mass produced and priced to sell. No point in getting America worked up into a lather just to tell em there is not enough of the product to go around.
Take CAre,
TED
August 10th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Statik #20
“Personally, while entertaining I think the special was about as easy on GM as it could be. Bob’s stamp of approval on it would seem to back that up.”
*** *** ***
Statik,
I’d like to respectfully remind you that the title of the piece was “Saving General Motors”. That said I think they clearly outlined GM’s troubles even if not to your satisfaction. Perhaps if they had titled it “GM’s ultimate road to Ch. 7″ they’d have ignored the Volt altogether and filled it with the negative content you seem to yearn for.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
#24 Grizzly
“Statik, I’d like to respectfully remind you that the title of the piece was “Saving General Motors”. That said I think they clearly outlined GM’s troubles even if not to your satisfaction. Perhaps if they had titled it “GM’s ultimate road to Ch. 7″ they’d have ignored the Volt altogether and filled it with the negative content you seem to yearn for.”
Fair enough. I look forward to these “G.M.’s ultimate road…” specials, hehe.
I personally think it should have been called, “GM looks for a moonshot,” that way we still could have gotten all our ‘Volt’ fixes -and- had a little more journalistic integrity.
Again, with GE (parent of CNBC) supplying alot of parts to GM for the Volt -AND- GM being one of CNBC’s top advertisers…I don’t think it’s a stretch to hypothesis we had a little whitewashing on this one.
(=
August 10th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
#13
What a Jackass
August 10th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
this show was funny. the only thing that is going to be “saving general motors” is a GOVERNMENT BAILOUT (aka Chrysler Part Deux).
i used to drive a chevy then switched to honda. needless to say the best decision I ever made. the volt is a good idea but hardly innovative and too little too late for a once proud company. so sad. the next page in GM’s saga will probably be titled “Chapter 11″.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I agree the price must be less expensive and not all of us can afford an MB, Lex or BMR. Rich people can afford the gas and I cannot. My gas money goes to people who hate us and let us not forget 911. As an American I fully intend to support GM and that means jobs to us. Lets wish them well.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
PDNFTT
Be well,
Tag
August 10th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
It must be raining in Trollville today, as they all seem to have decided to come here and post……………..
August 10th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I would love to have a Volt but 45k is way too much. There is just no value at that price. I’ll buy the first 100 mile range electric that is available for under 30k.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
The Grump, #1 says,
I still think 40,000 is too high, but a govt rebate could make the Volt begin to approach affordability.
——–
Yup. We will obviously have to wait until the Volt is for sale, but
the competition will be available in 2010 as well.
My personal opinion is anything above $30K is too expensive for the masses, and therefore won’t sell very well. This is especially the case if the competition has something comparable and is selling it considerably under $40K.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
#9 kubel - “$27,000 is as much as I’m willing to spend BEFORE tax credits. Any more than that, and the potential fuel savings just isn’t worth the high price.”
I’m unsure how you reach this conclusion. Assuming fairly flat or slightly upward trending gas prices, the difference in running a 20 mpg ICE car and an EV would be about $.23 per mile. Over 150,000 miles that would be $34,500 or a little less than three times the initial price difference. Over 100,000 miles it would be $23,000.
An EV should also have lower maintenance costs and lower repair costs.
The comparison with something like a Prius is significantly less favorable but still favorable. Assuming 50 mpg, the Prius would still cost an extra $1000 - $1100 per year for gas.
The Volt is not a pure EV but the vast majority of the time and for the vast majority of its owners it will be. Additionally its better performance and handling suggests a higher price vehicle. Finally, as the hybrids transform to plug-in versions with larger Li-on battery backs, their price will rise. At the end of the day the Volt will be price competitive with the alternatives.
Just a final thought on price. The Prius has a six month waiting list. Some dealer are selling it about $5000 over full sticker, and a one year old Prius with average miles is worth more than when it was new. I don’t see the Volt at $40,000 being overpriced. In fact I think during the first year or two supply will be a bigger problem than demand. So if you won’t buy one at $27,000 it won’t matter. Down the line, as the cost of the battery packs go down and their performance goes up, and as GM proceeds up the learning curve with this technology, there will doubtless be a Volt-like car for you at a price point you can accept.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
#20 Statik
GM advertises heavily on NBC and CNBC. I think I read the advertising relationship was a main reason that Phil LeBeau managed to get the access he did.
Yes it was easy on GM. But all the CNBC pieces I’ve seen on other companies — Walmart, etc. — have been about the same. It’s what they do. They’re a business channel and, if they want to stay in business, they can’t be Upton Sinclair.
That said, the story seemed about on point. Boiled down it’s: (1) GM has a very good international business; (2) GM North American operations are in trouble. The points about quality being poor in the past but getting much better is consistent with what you see from JD Powers, Consumer Reports, and so forth, and the role Lutz has played seems to me to also be correct.
The misses: (1) they touched on labor costs of current workers but didn’t address the pension and health costs; and (2) didn’t mention the major problems attributable to the dealer and supplier networks.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
IMO, what General Motors needs to do is quit wasting valuable time and resources playing with electric toys and start making real cars that people want to buy. Its that simple folks. They have caused all their problems themselves. I will spare you all the details. Somebody needs to turn this ship around and I don’t think current leadership is making good decisions. The overhaul need to start at the top. Enough said. Have a nice day.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Statik #25
” …I don’t think it’s a stretch to hypothesis we had a little whitewashing on this one.”
*** *** ***
Let’s see, CNBC not only pointed out that GM could be curtains, the reporter actually called the Volt’s success an “if”.
Soooo….Staik kindly expound on “whitewashing” and journalistic integrity please!
August 10th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Rashiid Amul #32
“My personal opinion is anything above $30K is too expensive for the masses, and therefore won’t sell very well.”
*** *** ***
Rahiid, I agree but what about to recoup on the first 10-15K vehicles? That few year 1 vehicles distributed in select cities will almost guarantee that there will be enough people willing to pay even more, not to mention that they’ll be difficult to get a hold of so supply and demand will prevail. If you’re GM, and a potential Volt buyer this is good news for both as it will subtly boost GM’s bottom line and going concern. 2011-2012 will be a different story altogether, and here’s where I think that price rationalization will set in and GM can really blow this thing open. Not to mention that year 2 Volts will have supercaps to absorb regen braking.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Grizzly #37.
Right you are. You and I won’t be getting the first batch anyway. So let the others help out GM. 2012 will most likely be more realistic for me to purchase one, unfortunately.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Hmmm… I’m hardly a GM sheep. Never bought a GM car in my life. Not that I wouldn’t, necessarily, but they’ve never had what I was looking for in a car when I was looking for it.
Now, I’m looking for an electric. Short of the Tesla and conversions (and “city” cars) there’s nothing available. The REASON nothing is available is obviously because the big car companies don’t want to build anything even remotely like an electric car. Obviously, they COULD since they DID (and don’t tell me they’re too expensive to build. All the big companies have dabbled with expensive low volume cars. Look at the Ford GT for an extreme example).
GM was the first to stand up and say “we’re gonna build you your electric car. And, we’re going to make it with a smaller battery and range extender so you might actually be able to afford the thing” I’ve paraphrased, somewhat.
Nissan electric? Absolutely fleet only. Subaru, Mitsubishi… Japan only. Anything else coming from the big boys anytime soon? Nope.
Plug in Prius… Toyota has been dragging it’s feet. It’s almost certainly going to be fleet only (not to mention it’s not a pure electric drive car so I would not consider one, anyway, at this time. Parallel hybrids are so YESTERDAY
Face it, the Volt is our only option for a decent electric car that we might be able to purchase anytime in the near future. That hardly makes Volt fans GM sheep.
Electric sheep, maybe.
Hmmm, I’m definitely not a GM robot, either since I dreamed up the electric sheep thing.
(That reference is worth 500 sci-fi trivia points. My gravitar is worth 1000
August 10th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Totally off topic:
Anybody see this article about the thermoelectric generators GM was working on a decade ago? This is perhaps the same technology they’ll use to cool the seats of the Volt. In this application, however, they were trying to produce electricity from the ICE exhaust to replace the alternator and thereby reduce load on the engine and improve mileage.
Apparently they’ve dusted off the tech and are working on it, again.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_bi_ge/tailpipe_power;_ylt=AtWmIDBfe.IsrZfyup3g3vCb.HQA
I wonder if sticking one of those on the exhaust of the range extending ICE would be a good idea? They claim 800 watts of power from the exhaust of a surburban traveling 50-60mph. This is definitely “free” power (not free as in cost, but free as in no-load, no backpressure). I wish they had more information about the materials being used. Maybe nasaman has some comments… Article says space stuff has been using the tech for awhile.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Even $40,000 is too high. Even if gas continues to average somewhere in the $3.50 to $4 range, It will still be more affordable for most to just pay the extra for gas than plop down 40G for a car. Don’t get me wrong for I will be one of those that does the plopping, but for the most part I think that it has a great potential to fail if GM doesn’t get the price down so that it is affordable for the masses. Please make this car affordable GM!
August 10th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
#22 Jon P. - PS, Your stupid - LOL, luv that! But seriously after being a follower of gm-volt.com for a year and a bit, any negative comments on the posters here are from individuals who don’t realize what GM is doing (helping the NA population getting off oil, who don’t need more than 40 miles a day) then let them make comments about foreign vehicles which they will STILL be buying gas for at whatever $$ a gallon.
Oh, last time I checked Li batteries not MUCH cheaper in Japan! Let the dogs out, the trolls are loose again!
PS. $40K VOLTS will go FAST, wait until 2014 for the $30K models!
GO GM, GO VOLT for 2010!
August 10th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
#39 Dave P
>> Electric sheep, maybe.
Hmmm, I’m definitely not a GM robot, either since I dreamed up the electric sheep thing.
(That reference is worth 500 sci-fi trivia points. My gravitar is worth 1000
Hmm.. “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?”, by Phillip K. Dick. Basis for the movie “Blade Runner“.
500 Sci-Fi trivia points towards what?
August 10th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
#36 Grizzly
“Let’s see, CNBC not only pointed out that GM could be curtains, the reporter actually called the Volt’s success an “if”.
Soooo….Staik kindly expound on “whitewashing” and journalistic integrity please!”
————–
I’m feeling friendly tonight for some reason, I dunno why. Lets just let this one meander off into the sunset and call a truce on this subject, hehe.
You know I could rattle trap on for a good couple dozen paragraphs backing up my point and I’m pretty sure you could retort for a equally long time, we’d go back and forth, etc. etc. There would be a big fiasco…the ‘Franklin Mint’ would probably come out with a limited edition pewter chess set of our battle.
http://www.brianstoys.com/store/images/products/Star%20Wars/POTF2/LimitedEdition/POTF2_LimitedEdition_StarWarsChessSet.jpg
I doubt there would be a winner declared at the end, we’d just end up getting everyone else disgruntled.
I’ll catch you on the next thread my friend.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
#42 Anthony BC Says: “$40K VOLTS will go FAST, wait until 2014 for the $30K models!”
————————————————————————————–
I was hoping they could get it under $30K before that.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
#39 DaveP
I have always been an EV advocate, so I can verify what you are saying: besides Tesla (and don’t forget Fisker) and a couple of city cars, all the other electric cars, PHEVs or otherwise, are all coming out only for fleet use in the US in 2010. Toyota also is dragging their feet on the PHEV Prius and given they are doing a restyling for 2009, I doubt they will offer the PHEV Prius before 2011. So it seems the Volt will still be one of the first highway capable electric vehicles avaliable to the public from a major manufacturer, if it comes out in 2010. As for whether it will be a success, we’ll see.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
#22, Jon P,
It’s not “your stupid,” it’s “you’re stupid.” Spelling, grammar and punctuation count when you are telling people they are stupid.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Dear General,
Please manufacture an E-Flex vehicle that’s priced nicely under $30,000.
Regards,
PFV
August 10th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
#12, Nelson,
A car that sells in limited quantities is not going to douse GM’s cash burn. The two-mode Vue will be costly to build and expensive to buy. It will probably do a bit better than the Yukon/Tahoe hybrids but quantities above 1K/month are unlikely. And GM’s capacity for two-mode transmissions is reported to be 2K/month. That’s not going to allow for the volumes they need.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
The stock price of GM is plumbing 50 year lows, but when the business improves, eventually the stock price will follow. GM is being forced to make even more drastic cuts after years of painful restructuring due to the current economic situation. The economy will improve, and the rapidly falling price of oil will hasten that recovery. GM may even be offered huge, low interest loans by the federal government to ensure that it does make it through these difficult times. The cuts being made now will turn GM into a very lean company which will help it become very profitable as soon as the auto market returns to normal. In addition the cars which have been released in the last couple years are gorgeous and high quality. The upcoming cars like the Traverse, Camaro and Equinox continue that trend. The stock market is very focused on the possibility of bankruptcy. It will not happen and GM will be the greatest turnaround story ever. For examples of the gains that can be made when an auto company recovers, look at VW which has increased in market cap from $15 billion to $120 billion in less than 3 years, and Fiat which increased 5-fold. With GM’s market cap of $5.8 billion, it has even more potential for gains than VW or Fiat.
I’ve put my entire net worth into GM’s shares and options and I’m really hoping I’m right.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
The Toyota Prius with a L-Ion pack well be OK in the city at low speeds that is If you don’t have to pass someone or hill clime (especially with four passengers aboard ).
If you do the gas motor will have to burn.
On the highway it will have to burn gas to keep up with traffic.
The Volts electric motor and battery output will have enough power
to run on pure electric power.
There is No comparison between the Volt and the Prius.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Statik # 44
“I’m feeling friendly tonight for some reason, I dunno why. Lets just let this one meander off into the sunset and call a truce on this subject, hehe.
You know I could rattle trap on for a good couple dozen paragraphs backing up my point and I’m pretty sure you could retort for a equally long time, we’d go back and forth, etc. etc. There would be a big fiasco…the ‘Franklin Mint’ would probably come out with a limited edition pewter chess set of our battle.”
*** *** ****
Statik,
I’m sooo glaaaad you’re feeling friendly tonight as I’d sure hate to be ripped to shreds by you simply backing your point. It’s just sooo easy to post on this site and often those that do have sheep that follow them wherever they go. Those sheep follow because they never even question where the wool came from or better yet whether it’s even wool at all!
You made two particular statements, and those were that CNBC “White washed” this segment and that “journalistic integrity” had been compromised.
The question is simple…..Expound on both points…second request!
And please don’t filibuster.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Notice that CNBC manufacturerd that price estimate. We can all be quite certain that CNBC doesn’t know its butt from third base about the Volt - that would be so un-CNBC. Their method of “discussing”
and issue consists of putting mikes in front of two holding alernative views and leaving the mikes on, allowing the guy with the biggest mouth to get all the airtime. They are one braindead network. Any talent they had left for Fox Business or Bloomberg.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
By the way, need to rush to see the program - CNBC rebroadcasts their documentaires for , literally, years. They are still airing EBAY and other programs they filmed over two years ago!!!
August 10th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
#52 Grizzly
Ok, but I’m going to keep it really, really short. Just because you ’second’ requested.
Journalistic integrity
A) they did NOT disclaim that GE (their parent) has a partnership with GM on the Volt (if this was a ’stock’ story by LAW they have too.)
B) they ran GM commercials during the segment, hence conflict of interest
Whitewash:
They sited GM sales totals for Asia, the ’strongest’ market, but failed to mention that GM is a minority stakeholder in that market, only owning a third of that business.
When addressing the ‘problems’ that GM needed ’saving from’, they failed to current problems still dragging the company down, and problems on the short term horizon, speaking of most problems as past tense.
These current problems would have run contrary to the ads they are currently running. ie) giving reason to NOT buy GM vehicles.
A) the across the board increase on every GM car in 2009
B) they did not address to potential of further catastrophic loses and profit drops from losing the 20% domestic and 43% Canadian lease business
C) most specifically, with all that access they did not actually ask any executive even one tough question, like, “you say you have enough money to last the next 6 quarters…what exactly is your plan to ’save GM,’ surely the answer isn’t we are going to sell some muscle cars in 2009, and 5 years from now we are going to make alot of electric cars. Why not just ask them flat out?
What kind of investigative journalism doesn’t ask any tough questions? Especially with this kind of access? The kind of journalism that really doesn’t want to hear the answer. This wasn’t Barbara Walters/Hugh Downs action here, it was more like a GM Infomercial.
Agree or not, thats my opinion…and I stand by it. Feel free to retort. I’ll see you on the next thread.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Statik #55
Once again the title of the piece was …”Saving General Motors”.
Can you read, or is the illiteracy problem even greater north of the boarder?
August 10th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Does anyone know where I can find this online? I couldn’t watch it in Canada and I’d really like to be able to see it. Thanks!
August 10th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
A bit off topic - I see mentioned over and over about the price dropping after the Volt’s been on sale for a year or two, possibly dropping from an introductory price of around $40K to a more affordable $30K.
Has this ever happened before? I understand economies of scale, but this phenomenon is not unique to the volt, other cars have not dropped in price like people are expecting to happen with the Volt.
Just curious why the confidence of such a drastic price drop with the Volt.
Cheers!
August 11th, 2008 at 12:57 am
Stew,
That has been a niggling little question for me as well.
The Prius is now a decade old and manufactured in the hundreds of thousands, but its price is going up, not down.
OK, it has added functionality, but isnt that the old marketing trick they have used for personal computers for two decades?
Why is the Volt on a different curve?
August 11th, 2008 at 2:04 am
When somebody creates something, and plans to create multiple copies of that thing, the first item sold costs the full amount of development, and every unit thereafter costs as much as it takes to make that unit.
The first Volt off the assembly line will cost GM, what? A billion dollars? (I don’t really know. I don’t even have a frame of reference for something so big.)
That’s why pricing is primarily a function of how many you think you’re going to sell at whatever price you decide on. Price it too low, you’ll sell plenty, but not enough to recoup development costs. Price it too high (”people pay $40k+ for Lexus sedans! This is also a sedan! Price it like a Lexus. Brilliant!”) and not enough people will buy it and you won’t recoup development costs. There’s a sweet spot, and GM will be paying a lot of money for market studies to find it.
IMO, “The Volt will cost $40k+” is expectations management. Possibly shaking some rebates/tax credits out of the government tree.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:45 am
So now I am expected to wait for the Volt AND pay big money for it? Not going to happen! With a price of $40k+ Volt will be a huge failure. Just take a look at the competition. To give Volt a fighting chance it is now certain they need government support.
And when Volt emerges you can expect Toyota to shake off the competition by returning back to the normally priced Prius. Presently their profits must be enormous and the waiting lists have made them confident to take the price sky high.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:47 am
Lurtz
OK,
In your opinion then, if the Volt is on the market initially at mid 30K,
then it will still be there a decade later?
The logic being that decreasing materials costs are offset by the need to recover the development costs.
And anything half like a Volt will be at about the same price..ie a Nissan EV.?
August 11th, 2008 at 4:43 am
#58 Stew Says: ” I see mentioned over and over about the price dropping after the Volt’s been on sale for a year or two, possibly dropping from an introductory price of around $40K to a more affordable $30K.
Has this ever happened before? I understand economies of scale, but this phenomenon is not unique to the volt, other cars have not dropped in price like people are expecting to happen with the Volt.”
————————————————————————————–
The typical scenario is that the car manufacturer loses money at first to keep the introductory price low.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:00 am
I know a lot of people who buy Lexus, BMW, and other expensive cars. Most of them don’t care about mpg. It is about image. While they can afford it, they will not pay that kind of money for a Volt. GM needs to find a way to lower cost to put this car into the hands of the people who need it for what it is or should be. Low cost transportation. One way they can do this is to lower price and if necessary raise cost of other vehicles slightly to offset. $50.00 increase in price on oll other models probably wouldn’t be noticed but would go a long way in reducing the price of the Volt. At least for the first couple of years.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:56 am
Story about the compressed air car
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/08/08/air.car/index.html
August 11th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Maan. I hope GM has some really good lobbyists in Washington who can help get some generous tax credits for the Volt. Until there are fuel cell cars on the market, “series hybrids” (ER-EVs) are going to be THE best kind of cars on the road to help America beat its oil addiction and get more energy independence, help the environment, etc.
There’s a LOT of positive societal benefits that will come from E-flex vehicles like the Volt so I think this car should get a BIG tax credit. More societal benefits should mean bigger tax credits. I’d like to see GM make a no-compromise, high VALUE Volt in 2010 and still be able to get for under $35,000. That would be awesome.
$30,000 or less would definitely make the Volt a car that will be in HIGH demand. At $30K, people would be clamoring for Volts … especially if GM does a really good job on the exterior/interior and the car magazines and reviewers all agree that the Volt is awesome. I’m sure GM would love to have problems like this. People mad at them because they can’t make ENOUGH of a particular model they make. It sure beats having people be mad at them for quality problems or unattractive designs, etc.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:38 am
#55 Statik.
About the fact that GM only owns a 1/3 of their asian interests. That is not minority, it is majority, by law that is the maximum they can own. and that relates to investment in foriegn companies / joint ventures. their own asian operation are (I believe all theirs)
Regarding the end of leases. Leases are not done, only th INCENTIVES are. GM is no longer subsidizing the lease rates..you can still lease cars in Canada and US.
#61 ANDY
Look at the competition…Who? no one has a RE EV….
Peace
Mitch
August 11th, 2008 at 9:12 am
64. wwskinn3
If GM does a fantastic job on the exterior/interior, I think the Volt will be a good car for people that want to enhance their image. There’s a LOT of people in California who are concerned about their “green image” these days. Plenty of Hollywood stars out there drive a Prius instead of a BMW I hear.
Hopefully, the Volt will be an all around nice car inside and out and Hollywood stars will ditch their Priuses in droves and get a Volt. It will be the new “prestige green car” that the cool Hollywood stars drive. I’m sure a lot of them would prefer an American car if it is better than a foreign one.
GM needs to keep the Hollywood folks in mind. They’ll be influential to everyone else. GM’s marketing people ought to be thinking about getting Ed Begley, Leo DiCaprio or some other entertainment people for magazine advertisements, TV commercials, etc. There’s probably plenty of stars that might do TV commercials for the Volt cheap in order to help the environment, etc.
I could visualize Arnold Schwarzeneggar in a TV commercial for the Volt maybe. Some sort of Terminator take off with da Governator saying “da car of da future is now available now at a Chevy dealership near you”.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I keep waiting for the day that a car is built that will trigger me to buy a new car. I haven’t bought a new car since my 82 Trans Am. I have a 6.5L TD Silverado (264,000 miles) and a 98 VW TDI Jetta. Both are diesels and I make my own fuel.
A reasonably priced EV (less than $30,000) will get me interested. A $40,000 vehicle no matter what is totally out of my price range. It looks to me that is will be a long time before the scale of economics comes down to were I can buy a Volt or other EV car.
I wish the options were there now, but I believe it will be at least 5 more years before EV cars come down to were I can afford one. It seems to me that everything is always 5 years off. Mean while I’ll keep making my own fuel and getting by.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Saving GM is a Serial-Hybrid Malibu, selling at $27000, producing 5000/month, with NiMH and delivering 2009.
NiMH is a known tech. Tesla has 6000 cells of NiMH for 220 miles with one charge. GM should be able to use 2000 cells for 20 to 40 miles with one charge. The heating and cooling for Li-ion with flammable electrolysis, is pissing against the wind for now. Li-ion battery can always come later.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:12 am
#56 Grizzly
“Statik #55, Once again the title of the piece was …”Saving General Motors”.Can you read, or is the illiteracy problem even greater north of the boarder?”
Generally it is best when slighting someone on a personal level, especially when drawing into question their reading skills directly, that you spell all the words correctly…or it loses something.
I think my suggestion that a real piece would actually ask “what exactly is your plan to ’save GM,’…Why not just ask them flat out?” shows I have a good concept of the title. It is no secret that the financial community as long been befuddled by CEO Wagoner’ss, ‘no-plan leadership’, he quite frankly never has a plan, other than to cut production and salaries.
Random link to show I’m not the only person with this opinion:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-bod-defies-ttac-ceo-wagoner-stays/
Anyway your post in #52 and #56 really has no business being here, nor does it serve and useful purpose. When you post like that, even if others agree with your point of view, the community does see your attitude and I can assure you it reflects badly upon yourself.
We should be open to debate, if we both post points we think are valid (and in a civil manner), the community is not unintelligent, they can decide for themselves which to take to heart. It is hard for anyone to back positions lead by sarcasm, belittlement and hostility regardless if they have merit or not because it calls into question the integrity of the poster.
Respond as you will. I will see you in the next thread and leave this one behind.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:35 am
I am tired of speculating on the price of the Volt. I will just wait until it finally appears and see what the price is. Time enough then to make a decision. Assuming that I haven’t finally run out of patience and bought something else.
The future is now.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
#71 Statik:
I commend to you your own advice to me at #56 on the post above re: the Olympics commercial!
It’s the blogosphere man, don’t take it to heart. I used to blog on one of the local LA political blogs. I got called names that would make you blush. This is the soul of good manners in comparison to that. You’ve got plenty of fans. Don’t dignify it by getting upset. It just encourages more of the same.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Assuming GM spends one billion dollars developing the Volt:
At a $40,000 price it takes 25,000 sales to equal 1 billion dollars.
At a $30,000 price it takes 33,334 sales to equal 1 billion dollars.
GM could recover all their development cost in one extra year by selling at $30,000 dollars and have some money left over. Now, that does not include the cost of actually producing and marketing the cars being sold. They could certainly recover all their development cost very quickly assuming the 1 billion dollar figure. Based on my estimates, which is certainly not scientific, they should be easily do very well at the lower sales price if (and this is a big if) they can get the production over 50,000 per year by 2012.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Grizzly and Statik
I respect both of your opinions, but not when it gets down to name calling or talking about a person’s intellect. I quickly lose interest in those comments.
You are both correct in a number of things that you said. We all agree with much both of you say at different times. Having different opinions on this post is what is so good about it. I am sure most of us have been subjected to criticism due to something we have said here or on other sites. I have been on some sites that if you make a contrary opinion, it goes into moderation and NEVER gets posted. Just for voicing a different opinion than what every one else is saying.
Keep up the good work, both of you.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
For those wondering about price reductions of vehicles after initial release… Yes, generally the price does not go down. However, often the costs do, due to redesigning elements that have proven or were expected to be expensive.
Actually the Prius is a good example. They did several things to drastically reduce costs from the initial design to the current one (I wish I could find historic car prices somewhere… Anyone?)
Main thing was they added a second motor so they could cut the size of the battery pack (it’s a complex system, I won’t go into how that works) and fiddled with the power electronics to boost the voltage from the smaller battery pack.
Net result was a huge improvement in the profitability of the vehicle.
So, it may very well be that the price of \Volt Revision 1 doesn’t come down, depending on how it is initially priced. But \Volt Revision 2 or the e-cobalt or something WILL be cheaper. The expectation is that the battery costs will come down with increased volume and SOMETHING very much like the initial \Volt will be cheaper because of it.
I think that seems pretty likely.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I was’nt to impressed with the so-called documentary.
The whole thing seemed liked it had been scripted for CNBC by GM.
Instead of focusing on hybrids & small cars like the Beat, Groove, or the Trax, they focus on the Camaro.
What direction are they telling us they’re going?
August 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Thanks Lyle, I’m a little late those days trying to get back to normal hours of work.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
#77 Guy Incognito
Agreed, the documentary made it seem like the Camaro was going to be the slavation of GM.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
#3 Grump:
No, actually I think Lyle is #1, and I’m at #5495 myself, but I really don’t see any cause for celebration here unless GMC actually does use the sign up list for their allocation of the first 10,000 Volts.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
#43 ThomC:
Correct! and the points go toward your 1st dan sci-fi trivia black belt, of course.
#46 stopcrazypp:
Yes. In fact, the Volt will be the first car to even come close to answering the decades old question or whether or not Americans will buy an electric car. The range extender softens the blow somewhat of cost and certainly range.
If the Volt sells, we’ll certainly theorize that pure EVs might very well likely have sold for whatever their prices should have been had anybody tried to sell them, but we still won’t know for sure. If the Volt doesn’t sell, however, then that may vindicate the car companies for saying they couldn’t sell EV’s 10 years ago.
To my mind the only question is if there are enough well-heeled early adopter types to buy enough to drive the volumes up and costs down fast enough to make the tech affordable to the mainstream. I surely hope so because if not we may miss our EV window of opportunity for another decade or two (until the next oil shock).
August 11th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Up date my earlier post that production should be 50000/month. Flood the market.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
If $45k is too rich for your blood and you don’t want to wait for 2 years, how about trading 4 wheels for 2?
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s.php
August 11th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
#83 Peter re zeromotorcycles.com
That is just “coming soon” vaporware. Check out:
http://www.evtamerica.com Z-20, R-30, Z-30
http://www.x-tremescooters.com look for XM-3500Li electric scooter
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-scooters/zapino-electric-scooter
http://www.electricmotorsport.com various and custom
http://www.vectrix.com the vectrix
all have bikes available now
A note on battery costs and Volt prices. The EVTAmerica Z and R machines run on 5 U1 size sealed lead acid batteriesl. If handled gently and properly these batteries might last for as much as 10,000 miles. If you shop carefully, you can get them for about $100 apiece. So $500 every 10,000 miles. This adds up to $7,500 dollars over 150,000 miles. This is for a two wheel scooter that weighs about 330 lbs. and no heater or A/C. The cost per mile for electricity is .7 cents. About 5 cents for battery replacement. Total under 6 cents per mile. In the same range of the gas cost for a larger scooter or smaller motorcycle. The Volt will be 2 cents per mile for electricity and around 7-10 cents per mile for the battery. A bit less than twice the cost for an electric scooter. For this you get two extra wheels, a roof, a steering wheel, a spare tire, glass all around, heat, air conditioning, decent suspension, air bags, seat belts, side intrusion protection, a trunk, room for 3 other people/dogs, and bumpers. I speak from experience.
The battery at almost any price is the cheapest part of the Volt because it is what allows you to save a much larger fortune on gas bills. But for now you can go pure electric and petroleum free but you will have to brush up on you balance, learn what countersteering is and practice it, and deal with the weather in an up close and personal manner.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
The $45k does sound high, $40K sounds better, then when the government adds in the $7k credit, now we’re talking $33.
Now if GM Really wants to sell them, work out a way that either GM gets the $7K or the customer has the ability to assign the credit to either the dealer or to GM. That way it would actually cost $33 out the door instead of having to take it off your taxes. Make it an instant rebate! this isn’t as far out as it may sound. Back in the 70’s when the government got behind solar, many companies leased solar water heaters to their customers because the company could get the tax credit. the system worked very well until Regan dropped all solar credits. Imagine where we would be if the solar industry had been going full steam ahead all these years.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
mein green@80,
I suspect that the Grump meant #1 POST this thread.
Be well,
Tag
August 12th, 2008 at 12:22 am
In my opinion there is no doubt that it was more infomercial than critical examination.
My favourite part was where they played the series of historic clips of GM execs saying things like, “Yes, our cars were horrible, but these new ones are fixed and as good as anything on the road.” and then Lutz says pretty much the same thing about the present. Just think, if GM is still around a few years from now we may see the exact same sequence but with Lutz added to the “historic” quotes.
My second favourite part was the GM worker openly admitting that they would ship out stuff they knew was wrong. Could there be a clearer example of the distinction between Toyota and GM?
August 12th, 2008 at 7:05 am
45k?
I am not buying any car for 45k.
That’s ayears salary for some folks.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
All prices are out the window! Case in point when I bought my 2003 Toyota Matrix it was under 15K now the MSR is 22K. I know there is price creep but not normally that much. When Toyota couldn’t sell big SUV’s anymore they cranked up the price on all their economy cars, expect everyone else to do the same. Do not expect anyone to sell an electric plug in for less than 30K with a 10 mile range by the time 2011 rolls around, 40 K for a 40 mile Volt might look about right depending on fuel costs at that point. And if Obama takes office with 7K rebate as promised (hopefully limited to vehicles made in USA with 40 mile range), 33K won’t be bad. Although I don’t agree with his Nuc policy he is starting to grow on me as far as energy policy. Only problem is solar is good only during day & won’t help charge my volt at night although wind tends to pick up at night. Nuc is available 24/7 and not subject to clouds or wind blowing. I woudl like him to be more inclusive & run with everything until we end our dependanace.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
#86 Tagamet:
Ya think?
Maybe there’s an implied message in there somewhere. Or not.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:29 am
Finally got to watch the whole show… Much of it did seem kind of like a fluff piece, they didn’t even mention the word bankruptcy until 43 minutes into the show. But, on the other hand, it could be that we’re a little more financially concerned thanks to Statik. The average viewer might be more concerned that the cars aren’t selling as more of a problem.
It was elucidating to watch Bob Lutz show off the historic GM cars, though. Actually, I think they were hardest on him, not from a corporate performance standpoint but for a car guy like Lutz, they made him talk about some cars GM would rather have forgotten about. The look on his face was priceless when they asked him about what he thought of the looks of the Aztek! Maximum Bob actually held his tongue but kind of hovered there looking like a deer in the road. You could just imagine what he was thinking but the interviewer threw him a lifeline and said something like “could you use any other word but ugly?” and Bob just quietly agreed. (I’m sure he COULD have used some other words that would probably have gotten him into some trouble somewhere)
But those segments with Lutz were what I got the most information out of. Not like tech details, but you can watch Lutz’s expressions which give a good indication of his emotions. He’s either a fantastic actor or should never play poker. I suspect the latter. He really did light up driving the Volt mule. Although he admitted he was pretty excited that it just worked.