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Chevy Volt Chief Engineer on the Volt’s Electric Power Steering System

August 8th, 2008 | Posted in: Engineering

Andrew Farah is the Chevy Volt’s chief engineer. I recently had the chance to speak with him about the type of power steering system GM is planning to use for the Chevy Volt.

It is important to keep in mind that the Volt will use on-board energy very judiciously, so that it can be maximally used for moving the car and achieving the most electric range possible. Such concerns come into play on each and every component that is being selected for the car. The power steering setup is an example of that.

What can you tell me about the Volt’s electric steering system?

Its called EPS for ‘electric power steering’. That’s something that has actually been developed for all of our different vehicles. Because its good for economy and because you’re no longer just spinning a pump that you’re not using all the time.

Old power steering systems are driven by a hydraulic pump off of the fan belt, pumping hydraulic fluid continuously. When you’re not loading the power steering, there are still parasitic losses that come off the engine to keep that pump going.

So we developed the EPS for all cars but it is exactly what I need for this car (the Volt) and its ready to go.

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Posted by: Lyle

102 Responses to “Chevy Volt Chief Engineer on the Volt’s Electric Power Steering System”

Ada Badda Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:47 am

Wish them a success? GM has no chance of winning over Toyota!
David L G Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:48 am

I wish I could retrofit my current vehicle with one of these to improve MPG.
dkuda Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:57 am

I may get to 15 MPG with my 65 GTO with that steering package.
NZDavid Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:58 am

Interesting
Joe Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:00 am

Ada Badda Says:@1

“Wish them a success? GM has no chance of winning over Toyota!”

***********************************************************

That’s like saying Toyota is smarter than we are. Wake up and take a little pride of your country!!! Of course I’m assuming you are American which is very possible you not. But, if you are, that kind of thinking will just bring us down.
Eric C. Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:00 am

I wonder how much intelligence they’ll build into the power steering. For example, I’ve driven cars with no power steering, and at higher speeds you’d never really know the difference. If they really wanted to maximize energy savings, perhaps they’d consider only having the power steering turned on at lower speeds. (<20mph, for example)
Firefly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:00 am

Hey David L G:

Actually, the American hot rod aftermarket industry has had this for some time. A company named Flaming River Industries actually released this system about 2 to 3 years ago as a retrofit or addition to hot rods and customs. The intent behind its release was that it reduced parasitic losses from the hydraulic pump system. Less loss equals more horsepower. Their system also worked by increasing assistance at low speed maneuvering while reducing assist at highway speeds where it need not be as sensitive. Presumably the Volt’s systems will be similar, efficient at low speeds and practically unnecessary at highway speeds. So to reply to your statemant, you actually could retrofit this system to your car (depending on what type of car it is).
Engineer Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:02 am

Strange that the motor is to high, I would have thought a rack mounted pump would be better.
Firefly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:02 am

Eric C-

Correct…

Engineer-

Similar to Flaming River’s setup, it was something about the torque sensor’s proximity to the steering wheel that gave it a better measure of sensitivity to steering inputs.
Jim I Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:07 am

One more thing to check off the “completed list”!
THOM Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:10 am

Why not stick with standard mecanical steering?? This project is all about efficiency..i would rather use that power to propel me forward.
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:10 am

Interesting factoid & good timing?

Last friday (July 25th), this fantastical “EPS” in my 2006 G6, broke on my wife while making a left turn out of my subdivision. To further complicate the matter, she just started taking off from a stop sign, therefore she couldn’t yank the wheel fast enough and get ahead of traffic…she ended up popping the curb across the road to avoid getting herself into a bigtime accident.

So we phone GM, they are nice enough about it. They say they will not be able to get it fixed over the long weekend, but if we get it down to them by 5:30 (when the shop closes), they will give us a car to drive because (interesting factoid #2) under the ‘lease’ agreement we are entitled to a car if ours is deemed ‘undriveable’

We do get it down to them (at around 4:30pm I want to say) and we get our spiffy white G5 to bomb around in until next tuesday (monday was a holiday in Canada). The manager, who clearly is out of his element (it maybe was just ’some Joe’ filling in for the last hour before the holiday…no problem), really has no idea what is wrong with the car, he just wants us out…so we go.

We are going to go out to Swiss Chalet (chicken joint) for supper, when on our way we get a call from the dealership, “Umm, one of our mechanics happen to have some time, so we asked him to have a look at your car…and anyway, it’s fixed. So if you can bring your rental back before 5:30…you can have your car tonight.” Hmm? Thats…odd.

Anywhoo, we bring the car back the next day regardless, we like our chicken and how am I going to find out the exact threshold of where the G5 loses traction going around hairpin turns in like 10 mins.

So we go back the next day, and the we happen across the mechanic, he story is this, “Oh yeah, your lucky I just happened to see your car before I left. That EPS is ****, all it needs is a sensor, those thing go all the time, took me like a minute to fix it, if I was around when you brought it in I could have just fixed it there”

Long story short, my wife almost bit the big one because the fantastical EPS system just randomly shuts off…and it’s not a isolated incident.

So I doubt the reason is that it is “good for economy and because you’re no longer just spinning a pump that you’re not using all the time,” it’s more than likely because it’s alot cheaper to make.

Just my opinion. I have the receipt somewhere, maybe I’ll scan it…just for laughs. First time in my life I’ve had anything like that happen to the steering.
Cire Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:11 am

Yeah as they said its pretty standard nowadays, more efficient. I wonder if they ever had hydraulicly powered windows.. that would be interesting, probably more dangerous too in terms of chopping off your fingers.
Murray Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:16 am

If this thing has wind-up windows … I’m OUT!

(not really)

… they could say the window cranks are part of the ‘retro-design elements’ though
Firefly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:18 am

Oh yeah, I forgot. Flaming River’s unit in the event of motor control failure reverts back t ofull manual steering. You’ll need to benchpress 200 lbs. to turn the wheel, but at least you’ll still be able to steer it. But they didn’t use a fancy ECU, just a modest sensory controll unit. Sometimes simple IS best.
Dave99 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:32 am

6. Eric C & 7. Firefly

Correct. The gain on the EPS is tunable to different speeds, so you can have it provide varying levels of assist on the highway v. in the parking lot (giving much greater flexibility in tuning than traditional hydraulic systems). And the good thing about electric motors, no parasitic pump losses as mentioned above - you use only the power that is required for assisting you in the turn. The Tahoe Hybrid that I’ve driven had EPS, and I love it. It is much easier to turn the wheel on that vehicle in parking maneuvers than on my mid-size car with hydraulic power steering.

11. THOM

I would think that removing power steering would result in much lower sales volumes. This would off-set any positive impact in “energy economy” gained by the reduced load, leading to a net loss in energy efficiency for the US economy. Also, the negative media on the vehicle as a result could lead to a negative public perception of EV’s, leading to even fewer EV sales in the future.
Kevin R Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:48 am

#1 Ada Badda

Why was this comment even made? How is it germane to the subject matter? In fact, it’s pretty useless and pointless.

I think it is interesting to see how GM is using more and more low draw electrical components. By the time the Volt comes out I bet the vehicle gets more miles out of the battery pack then they envisioned. I mean, the mules were pushing past 40 miles on a charge and they aren’t the aerodynamic Volt bodies! If the packs are getting that in a mule imagine what it will do when fully complete.
George Kreuter Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:54 am

What about those GM Daytime Running lights? I hope they leave them off of the Volt or at least make them controlable by the driver.
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:12 am

Further to my point:

Pontiac G6 under investigation for power steering loss.

“According to Bloomberg News, NHTSA has received 19 complaints about the G6s power steering failing, so far resulting in two crashes and one injury. The affected models include 176,968 vehicles sold in 2005 and 2006 ”

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/01/pontiac-g6-under-investigation-for-power-steering-loss/

Other fun times with the EPS:

People having ‘fun’ with the Cobalt’s EPS:
http://www.topix.com/forum/autos/chevrolet-cobalt/T8FMSUQB7V2DTH5JH

Same issue on the Malibu, GM actually extended the warranties because they know they are bad:

“GM has indicated that it plans to send letters to the owners of these vehicles to inform them that it will extend the warranty coverage for the eps system in their vehicles to 7 years or 70,000 miles”

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0f8fe4
rob Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:13 am

I would expect the DRLs to be low-wattage. LED probably?
charley497 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:13 am

I noticed on the cnbc program saving GM they had the price of the volt up to 45000. Now that sucks.
Jeff Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:14 am

Off topic…Oil is falling in price.

I wonder what the threshold is before the trucks and SUVs start selling again?
brandon Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Here is a riddle… I know off the subject a little bit..

Who saves more money?

1. Someone who drives a car 10,000 miles/year and upgraded to 14mpg car from 12mpg?

or

2. Someone who drives a car 10,000 miles/year and upgraded to 50 mpg from 34mpg

Each new vehicle is the same price…
Cire Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:31 am

23

The person that switched from 12mpg to 14mpg saves more money (119 gallons) the person that switchs from 34 to 50mpg saves 94 gallons, however they pay alot less still.

To drive 10,000 miles:

12mpg - 833 gallons
14mpg - 714 gallons

34mpg - 294 gallons
50mpg - 200 gallons
brandon Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am

We should all buy some Light Sweet Crude oil futures.. And then sell it all at once… This would drop the price of oil…. Maybe help put it into a spiral effect where all the other buyers will sell because they don’t want to lose alot of money. And will continue to fall.
Jeff Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am

#24 If the Volt was available, ..to point out the obvious

12mpg car vs Volt (electric sourced energy only)

Volt - 0 gallons
12mpg - 833 galons

For those folks with “gasoline price and supplier anxiety”
Cautious Fan Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Since current vehicles run the power steering off a fan attached to the engine, when the engine shuts off you loose power steering and it gets really hard to turn. With an electrical system, even if the engine is off, you can still draw power from the battery and use the power steering. That should improve safety. Also, electricla components will be more reliable the hydraulic. At my company, all the new designs I’m aware of use electrical systems rather than hydraulics. Weight is about equivalent, but reliability goes way up. No more POWER STEERING FLUID.

Do the details seem really lacking to anyone else? I expected more details from a chief engineer? Maybe they’re trying to spread the news out over the next few years.
Cautious Fan Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:47 am

I meant to say “power steering is run off a hydraulic pump connected with a belt to the engine”.

No more POWER STEERING FLUID. Will we be able to get rid of the serpentine belt all together? I bet the generator is geared to the engine.
Aspherical Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:49 am

Off topic, but I haven’t thought of using heated compressed air to power your pistons. I wonder if it is actually more efficient than an ICE. I don’t have any back of the napkin power calculations yet…

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/08/08/air.car/index.html
Brian L Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am

5-year cost of ownership:

14-mpg = 3,571 gallons of fuel
50-mpg = 1,000 gallons of fuel

So the person with 50mpg “saves” more. The person with the more efficient vehicle (given that both vehicles cost the same) saves the most money, as their OPEX is lower. It’s not about which person decreases the most number of gallons per year.

Brian
brandon Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:00 am

#30

No the 14 save more money compared to what he was spending. It is true the 50mpg save more money when compared to total ammount spent. I didn’t say who spent less. I said who saved more money.

The person with 50mpg spends less.

But in this senario the person who went from 12mpg to 14 mpg saved more in that decision than the person who went from 34mpg to 50 mpg

Saved: (verb) to lay up money as the result of economy or thrift.

Basically the definition states the money gained from the economic decision you made.
Dr. Leeper Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am

I have a 92 civic hatchback and I removed the AC pump and the PS pump (Both which were broken) a month or so after getting the car. By removing the parasitic loss due to these two extra pulleys constantly dragging on the engine, I gained 5mpg all the time. Over a years time, I’ve saved a boatload of gas.

I removed the pump and all the tubing for the PS and just ran a reservoir to keep the system lubed. I believe it is more responsive for highway driving, but it really is a pain in parking lots and parallel parking.
Jason M. Hendler Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:17 am

I had to post this article, as I recognized this trend years ago:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/democracy_a_flickering_star.html

As the leftist-socialists prevent the US from leading an effective free market capitalist state, it will be the commie-fascist states that allow temporary free markets for rapid growth that will ascend. I say temporary, as China and Russia have long histories of siezing assets after they’ve been developed.

An early warning sign of the end will be China / Russia claiming resource rich territories in Asia, Eastern Europe, Middle East or Africa as part of their Manifest Destiny.
MetrologyFirst Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am

Brandon @ 31:

Not to mention that the guy upgrading to a 14mpg car can buy a used one right now for a SONG!

The 50mpg guy is in serious competition with the other 10 million people panicking about gas prices. He will spend WAY more on his car than the other guy. Add these secondardy costs in and the overall costs are much closer.

This all goes to show how different people may have different perspectives. And different solutions to their specific problems.

It’s not all one way or the other, like some argue.
Wendell G Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:25 am

I have a 2005 Chevy Malibu with the electric power steering. This isn’t something really new for GM. It works great and I suppose it is a gas saver. My Malibu gets 32 mpg in highway driving, 26 in town.
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:27 am

Any way to save electricity and gain AEM. I need my VOLT now. This Honda Insight is getting 60.6 Lifetime miles per gallon and is costing me a fortune. TED
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:34 am

I understand a guy/gal going from 12 to 14MPG saves more than a 34 to 50MPG driving 10,000 miles.

I’m assuming the 50 MPG is somehow Volt related. I have another slightly random thought from your question.

Not that people are doing it…yet, but I would like to caution doing math from ‘14MPG’ to ‘50MPG’ to try to justify the Volt’s pricing structure.

The Volt footprint/architecture is basically the same as the Cruze (on the Delta platform).. So when comparing MPGs/trying to price justify, it’s closest relative is the Cruze…and the math is bad, (Volt at 50MPG vs Cruze 40+MPG). Stick with the ‘it’s electric–good for the environment and hella cool’ mantra.

You have to really dig deep to find general population cars with MPGs of 14. (A little easier in SUVs). A Cadillac Escalade for example is 14MPG. For cars…the Bentley Continental GT is 13MPG, the Viper is 16, lol. These are certainly not vehicles that I would put into a MPG comparison with the Volt.
maharguitar Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:44 am

Clearly, the best savings is to go from the 12mpg land barge to the 50mpg hybrid. That’s if you don’t really need the land barge.

However, fleet wide, (by that I mean the entire domestic truck/auto fleet) You will save more fuel by improving the gas guzzlers than by improving the econo-boxes. For example, the best thing the industry could do to save fuel nation wide would be to improve the efficiency of 18 wheelers from 7 to 8 mpg.
Nelson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:47 am

EPS great idea that should be put in all GM cars.

A car engine should only move the car and produce electricity.
Rely on electrical means for cooling, steering etc…
Use electrical subsystems to reduce “parasitic losses”.
brandon Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:50 am

Well… The most economically best decision is to buy a car for 1500 drive it until you can sell it for more than buy another car and and try to sell it for more.. The next best economically best decision is to keep the car that is paid off. Adding 300 more more dollars a month in car payments plus gas. For this to not happen is to for you to save more on gas a month than you would on a car payment.

For most americans 40 miles a day. You have a car that gets 20mpg, but is paid off. Or you buy a civic and get 35mpg but a $300 car payment.

Current car: $8 a day = average 243 a month on gas.
Civic: $4 a day + $300 a month = 421 a month on gas a payment.

OK lets go furthur… People say that a used older car can break down more. Ok what are you going to spend on repairs? $2000 a year at most? ok 2000/12 = $167/month

OK

Current: 243+167 = $410/monthly
Civic: $421/monthly

This is assuming you will spend $2000/year on the current car for repairs (I think is unlikely). And you will spend nothing on repairs for the civic.

My conclusion 99% of the time it is cheaper to use the car that you “OWN”.

But if you want to help america get out of it’s oil dependance and help the enviroment, also people like to have new cars, then go for better gas mileage.

But I do not expect most people to care about ever penny. We americans like nice stuff, new stuff, the latest stuff… So I do expect the VOLT to be a huge success, depending on price.
harrier1970 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:51 am

If you are looking for a comparison for the Volt then I would not even look to the Cruze as you are not factoring in driving habits and the unique nature of the Volt.

A “Real life” scenario is that Joe Snuffy will drive his car to work and back with a few errands every day. This means that ~75% of all Volt drivers will not be using gasoline on a regular basis.

It is not realistic to assume that everyone will be consistently driving for extended trips across the country in a Volt (which probably would lower the MPG to ~50).

Just my two cents.
Katsuaki Watanabe Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:54 am

I think import cars have had this for years. Welcome to 2008 GM.
harrier1970 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:56 am

#17 Kevin and Statik

Kevin, excellent comment regarding #1. Clear, concise and to the point.

Statik, I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience with the EPS system. Losing steering (or braking for that matter) while driving can be a death sentence.

Since these EPS modules were a few years older (2006, 2007) and these problems have been brought to light do you know of an effort to replace the ‘cheaper’ components with something more robust?
mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:57 am

#21 Charley.

I posted in the last thread a question, can you help here?

Did they say (I missed the segment) that the Volt COSTS $45,000? or that the MSRP is now $45,000..there is a HUGE difference..Likely the first 10k units will be sold at a loss (like Pruises were 1st year) to gain market domination.

If they said COSTS then it has nothing to do with selling price…
N Riley Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:01 am

#12 Statik

I don’t know about the rest of us, but to me that is scary. What happens if you are cruising the lanes at 70 mph on a crowded interstate or city byway and that EPS dies? I hate to think about it. I sure hope GM has improved the thing where it does not do that anymore or has some redundancy (like dual controls).
Ray Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Hey all.. I had the EPS on my 04 Malibu Maxx… Had it into the dealership a dozen times for a ramdom “clunking” noise and only 1 freeze up.. sensor problem for the freeze up and ended up getting the whole steering assembly replaced (under warranty).. Problem went away for about 6 months and then came back…just not as bad.. Upgraded to the 2007 Malibu Maxx last year and just have the “regular” power steering on this one.. My dealership said ” yeah, we have had a few of the units with EPS giving trouble but GM is working on it”

Where is the pictures of my new VOLT ???
GM Engineers Asleep Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am

Why has it taken GM this long to put EPS in production ? A first year engineering student could have implemented this idea years ago. GM wake up.
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:07 am

#40 brandon

Your right, the best answer is always if you have a paid off car…that is money in the bank, if we are going ‘bottom line’

If you want to take your “help america get out of it’s oil dependance and help the enviroment” thought to it’s logical ending place, it is to not even drive a car, lol. Or at the very least, move close to your work, so you can walk there and lose the car. If you are a dual income, move within reach of one of the jobs and ditch your other car altogether.

Not a practical/viable in a lot of situations I grant you…but it is for many.

If you did suddenly develop a high enough priority/concern for ‘national security’ and the ‘health of the earth’, (or if gas went to $10/gallon lol), maybe you would give up that good job and go work at a variety store and rent the apartment above it.

Ironically, I know some people who have done this, maybe not for the ‘holier-than -thou’ reasoning, but because they live downtown Toronto and parking is a nightmare (and they are both lawyers too, so they are making good coin)…so I guess it can be done. (They just have a rental car delivered to them whenever they decide to leave the city).

That being said…I could never do it. I’m still waiting to power a electric car with my solar panels…thats as big a compromise as I’m willing to go.

/taps foot impatiently
Volt Repair Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am

With all this electric gear on the Volt I sure hope they have a good diagnostic module on this vehicle. I know electrical problems on today’s gas cars are some of the most difficult to diagnose and fix. The Volt could be a nightmare to troubleshoot if GM doesn’t add enough diagnostics throughout the system. Lets hope GM gets it right knowing how fast this vehicle is being pushed into production. Fingers crossed.
Paul Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:17 am

I think 2 things are important.

1st is Battery. Once you hear 10 years 150k miles warranty, you know that the Li-ion battery has problem. Volt should use NiMH battery. With my math, 1700 pcs of AA will give you 16KWH, the weight is less than 70kg, the cost is less than $2000 and V < 1000 cubic in.

2nd is the selling price. Volt should compete against Camry, Acorrord and Prius. $25000 is a good and doable price.
George K Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am

#12 Statik
“So I doubt the reason is that it is “good for economy and because you’re no longer just spinning a pump that you’re not using all the time,” it’s more than likely because it’s alot cheaper to make.”

That’s what they meant when they said “good for economy”. They meant GM’s!
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:19 am

#41 harrier1970

“If you are looking for a comparison for the Volt then I would not even look to the Cruze as you are not factoring in driving habits and the unique nature of the Volt.

A “Real life” scenario is that Joe Snuffy will drive his car to work and back with a few errands every day. This means that ~75% of all Volt drivers will not be using gasoline on a regular basis.

It is not realistic to assume that everyone will be consistently driving for extended trips across the country in a Volt (which probably would lower the MPG to ~50).”
—————–

Oh I agree with you 100%, but on the point that we shouldn’t put the Volts MPG number of 50 MPG as the standard, that would be ignoring the hole point of the car…but Cruze is still what we should comapre it too.

Factoring in say, mostly electric driving and the savings on gas versus electric for that portion of the drive, I’m sure the average blended MPG (allowing also for price of electricity) is probably going to be around 90MPG.

However, you still have to compare that 90MPG Volt to something. What I was saying is you will compare it to it’s closest twin…which would still be the Cruze. So it would be Volt (blended) 90MPG vs Cruze 40+MPG…and not Volt (blended) 90MPG vs Bently 12MPG.

I should have used the blended number I guess in my example, but my main point was that the Volt should be compared against it’s peers…rather than Escalades or 500HP cars that guys with only first names in the music business drive,
Jackson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:20 am

At 70 mph on the highway, I wouldn’t be that concerned about an EPS failure, if it was still possible to turn the wheel: almost no steering boost is needed at highway speed. What almost happened to Statik’s wife would be the more dangerous thing; large steering inputs, low speed, dire consequences.

For the steering, seems like you should have some kind of redundancy for the input sensors, at least.

(#20):

I would expect that every light on the Volt except maybe the headlights would be LEDs (and HID lamps, at worst, for the headlights), if for no other reason than to firmly sit within the staggering $45K cost-segment estimated in the recent CNBC program (and to save energy, of course).
Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:26 am

I’m not sure if I had power steering or not on my ‘87 Sentra… I didn’t have hydraulic power steering that I knew for sure. However I believe I had vacuum assisted steering which I guess is a form of power steering.

Of course a BEV doesn’t have any vacuums coming off an ICE to use either so a vacuum pump would be needed which is what I think some folks use who have converted an ICEV to a BEV.

I think older smaller vehicles could easily do w/out power steering simply because they were so much lighter.
logistiker Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:26 am

–maharguitar Says:
For example, the best thing the industry could do to save fuel nation wide would be to improve the efficiency of 18 wheelers from 7 to 8 mpg.

I disagree. The best thing industry could to do save fuel nationwide would be to ship by rail because it’s significantly more efficient than shipping by truck. Long-haul trucking in particular needs to go the way of the dodo.

Since I brought up shipping by rail, I thought I’d mention that GE built the first Diesel-electric locomotive prototype in 1895. So apparently it’s only taken us 115 years to apply the same technological concept to the car when the GM Volt arrives in 2010.
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:31 am

Other news:

GM gives another $350 million to Delphi. Apparently the relationship between Delphi and GM was still too close for investors, and the major backer pulled out, leaving Delphi not able to exit Chapter 11…and thus forcing GM to cough up some more cash.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/08/07/ap5302316.html

—–

Other, other news:

GM has to also cough up $277 million to settle a lawsuit, and get this…this is a real shocker, lol:

“…pay $277 million to settle a shareholder lawsuit contending the automaker made false and misleading statements (on their financial reports), according to the company and lawyers for the plaintiffs.”

What does GM have to say after settling?
“GM is pleased with the litigation settlement that has been reached,” GM spokeswoman Renee Rashid-Merem said on Friday.

Of course they are, sounds like they didn’t learn at all why they got sued. Honesty…try to have some. (Her comment sounds like alot of Volt press releases lately that are actually delivering bad news).

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN0846334220080808
logistiker Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:40 am

-GE built the first Diesel-electric locomotive prototype in 1895.

I digress, this was the first all-electric locomotive. The first diesel-electric locomotive was produced in 1917. Still, 93 years to use the tech on cars.
mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:45 am

#53 - read my post at 44 and comment please..
Larry R Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am

The old lady has a 2006 G6 four banger.
Excellent car with NO problems with the electric steering
or anything.
33 MPG’S on the highway and a solid well built performer.

I sent my survey to Consumer Reports and they will probably discard it
for their love of Jap cars.
mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:55 am

#59 Larry R

“I sent my survey to Consumer Reports and they will probably discard it
for their love of Jap cars”

My rant for years againsta a magazine that has an “unbiased” opinion, but has a “recommend” on a product they did not test based on other items they did IS biased.

Like movie reviewers..ignore CR
noel park Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:04 am

#23 brandon:

This is the argument GM used to justify introducing its first serious (as opposed to the belt thing) hybrid system on the Tahoe and the Yukon. What does Statik call it, the Yukhoe?

Anyway, you can get a $6000 rebate on a hybrid Yukhoe today. If you want a Prius, you get on a 6 month waiting list to pay MSRP, if you’re lucky.
CBK Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:04 am

Regarding the loss of power steering… I’ve had a couple of times where
the hydraulic steering failed either due to the pump or the engine stalling.
Yes, the steering becomes much more difficult, but not impossible. So I
don’t see an electrically powered steering any more or less likely to fail.
Unless, of course, they use a faultily designed system. JMHO.

Sure wish we would hear some reports from GM on the Volt progress.
The Grump Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:24 am

#19 Statik - Wow, that’s frightening. After reading those links, there’s no way I’m buying GM anything until they fix these electrical steering assist units. Perhaps multiple redundant sensors? No, if the original sensors are bad, adding more would be worse. I would rather have no steering assist at all, than a steering assist unit which has proven to be both defective and dangerous.

As Nasaman would say, steering is a “mission critical” component. It’s the last thing you would want to fail in your car. GM appears to be good with this - if you survive, they fix the unit under warranty. Hospital bills are your responsibility. Nice guys, GM.

I can’t believe GM is going to put these defective units into the new Volts. Of course, I can’t believe GM would use them at all, with all these steering units going bad under warranty. “Our new Cobalt has our fabulous electric power steering assist, which may fail and kill everyone in the car. Now if you would just sign right here, sir….Sir? Where did he go?”

It’s almost as if GM management wants GM to fail. It’s a shame, it really is.
Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:36 am

I see mention about the price of oil that’s been dropping and whether that will reverse the vehicle downsizing trend that’s now going on…

Well part of the price drop is due to reduced demand… I can’t remember how much but I recall something like the equiv distance equal to several round trips to the sun less. Any reversal in the demand will equate back to a reversal in prices back to higher prices, and it could indeed keep fluctuating like this.

Part of the drop is also being attributed to the increase in strength of the US$. Since all oil prices are denominated in the US$, a stronger dollar reduces the price for us (I imagine a stronger dollar increases the price in places like Europe?). If the dollar continues to strengthen and stays stronger that could have a longer lasting effect on oil prices.

However while cheaper oil prices is definitely likely to increases the miles driven, I think car buying consumers won’t base their decision on what could be short term oil pricing trends. Also given the lack of a lease option now for those big SUV’s that’s going to keep them out of the hands of even some that still want them.

Longer term the world wide trend is still increasing demand, mainly from China and India, and decreasing worldwide supply (mature oil fields).
Mike D Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:52 am

#64

In the 70’s the oil crisis happened because of clashes between governments, i think THIS time people realize that it’s because demand is high now and is here to stay, regardless of how well people are getting along. So to answer your question i don’t believe that a drop in prices will make people here go buy SUV’s. I think this time around that now we Americans don’t TRUST gas prices in general, and all who are living now won’t in the future because of these times. Like how people who lived through the depression in the 30’s generally became pack rats and penny savers for the rest of their lives, even when resources were once again abundant; Our shift to small cars this time is different and more permanent, in my opinion.
MeMyselfAndI Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:57 am

Electric Steering is about as stupid as playing russian roulette.

I too drove a vehicle with EPS and it failed while I was in the middle of a turn. Thankfully I had both hands on the wheel and was able to death grip it throwing my whole weight into turning the wheel.

EPS is garbage! Worst idea ever. When a hydrolic pump starts to die you get a LOT of warning unless the thing blows up which hasn’t ever happened to me. Sometimes you get leaks or you have to top off the fluid… hydrolics are very reliable.

Electric based solutions can short out, get fried, have sensors die, etc etc etc.

If GM puts in an electric system then they damn well better put in a backup in case the system fails!
Confused Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

#33 Jason M. Hendler

I’m confused here you are concerned that “the leftist-socialists prevent the US from leading an effective free market capitalist state”. Yet in the saving GM thread you were all for a 40 billion dollar government bailout for the Big 3. Which side of the fence are you really on?
Cautious Fan Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

#45 N Riley

A well designed electrical SYSTEM will be more reliable than the classic hydraulic pumps, belts and pulleys. In aircraft we’re moving away from hydraulics to all electric architectures for this very reason. In either case though, if the pump or motor fails catastrophically, you’ll loose power steering. But the chances of this happening in an electric motor are a lot less than a hydraulic pump.

Just imagine if the Volt gets rid of the entire serpentine belt. Water pump, power steering, power breaks, fan, AC compressor - all electrically driven. This system will be more reliable and more efficient. GM alluded that some systems will be redundant so Volt 1.0 may still have a belt for something.
Rudy Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

“I wish I could retrofit my current vehicle with one of these to improve MPG.”

I wish I could do that too, but nobody is going to make an aftermarket electric steering for an Escort. I’d have to convert to manual steering.
Rudy Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

“Electric Steering is about as stupid as playing russian roulette.”

I don’t think so. It’s already proven and in lots of production cars already, and I haven’t heard any complaints about it yet (besides yours).
Van Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

There is no reason why an electric steering unit would fail anymore often than a hydraulic steering unit. And no reason to think GM will not correct the flaw in their system. And be sure to put the offsetting risk factor in your calculus, say for example a front wheel blowout where it takes force to keep the car from swerving into danger. Then the much maligned power steering unit comes in might handy.
Joe OBrien Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

My 98 Olds Intrigue I use as my winter car has EPS. Electric steering is old news.

It works fine, and actually works better tha hydraulic systes as there is smooth motion through the steering range.

My 2001 Aurora has speed sensitive electric steering that gets tighter as you go faster. Overall, way better than hydraulic, but still old news.
Jackson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

mitch (#58)

In the program, “Saving GM,” which aired on CNBC Wednesday night, they finally got around to the Volt in the last 10 minutes. Shortly after explaining what the Volt was, they asked the question, “but will consumers be willing to pay the $45,000 that [the Volt] is currently estimated to cost?” (wording not precise, but this was the gist).

Given that it was an “estimate,” I doubt you could claim this was MSRP, per se; but from inference, it was clear they meant the ultimate cost to the consumer (less dealer gouging, and not counting government incentives), not the cost to GM to build (which was last reported to be right around $40,000).
mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

#73 JAckson

Thanks for the info.Was that GM saying that or a narrator?
GM should then penetrate the market at cost or slight loss gain domination, then economies of scale will kick in as number of units rise.

Even at 45k, if there is a green credit 7k like Obama is saying, and GM cuts a 2000 rebate, your back at 36k. GM needs to make sure the dealer network doesn’t fark this up my charging a mountain…later when in demand, cost is down, and they are flying off the lots..feel free to charge what the market handles..but not the fist oh say, 2 years…
Frank B Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

A little change of subject. Have they said anything about the A/C yet. That will have to be electric as well.
Jackson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

mitch: Narrator.

Frank B: Early reports say A/C will be an all-electric heat pump, but we haven’t had an update in awhile.

Joe O’Brien: You’re looking a little girly, today. Man-up, dude.
Bernie Torbik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

#56 Statik: Good information, as usual.

Those “misleading financial statements” wouldn’t have had anything to do with GM management’s claim that it’s a “viable concern”, would it?
RB Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

The post says:

“What can you tell me about the Volt’s electric steering system?

“Its called EPS for ‘electric power steering’. That’s something that has actually been developed for all of our different vehicles. Because its good for economy and because you’re no longer just spinning a pump that you’re not using all the time.

In other words, the steering system is current standard equipment. No doubt so is most of the rest of the Volt.

This is one of the least informative items we’ve received from GM.
Len Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Yeah, it was the leftests that bailed out Bear Stearns and the morgage companies - damn leftists - ruining the free market.

Lutz has said GM is not going to lose money selling the Volt.
canehdian Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Steering is certainly far from impossible if the hydraulics die.
Maybe for a select few, yes. (I know my mother wouldn’t be able to)
But as a 16-17 year old male who had never lifted a weight in my life, I was able to turn a windstar (a large-ish van, not just a tiny car!) from a stop turning left (after realizing that I was trying to turn and it was still going straight! lol)
It wasn’t easy, but it wasn’t near-impossible, either.
Aspherical Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

#75 Frank B

If you press the A/C button in the Volt, your windows will roll down.
Motown Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

#13 Cire - Good question. Power windows were at one time hydraulic. My ‘48 Buick Roadmaster convertible has hydraulic powered front windows and power top. The rear windows are manual crank, and the power seat is electric. Crazy huh? Cars are constantly evolving and I’m sure at some point people said electric windows were a bad idea just like the electric power steering comments now. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s completely unacceptable what happened to Static’s wife, but they just need more reliable components and a fail safe design.
charley497 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Mitch #44 CNBC Saving General Motors
The person doing the interview said, “current estimates are 45,000 and up.” He was talking about the volt but It wasn’t Bob Lutz or Rick Wagnor that said it. He didn’t say anything about Sticker price. I have no Idea where he got that number from. Charley
Koz Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Brandon #40

“Current car: $8 a day = average 243 a month on gas.
Civic: $4 a day + $300 a month = 421 a month on gas a payment.

OK lets go furthur… People say that a used older car can break down more. Ok what are you going to spend on repairs? $2000 a year at most? ok 2000/12 = $167/month

OK

Current: 243+167 = $410/monthly
Civic: $421/monthly

This is assuming you will spend $2000/year on the current car for repairs (I think is unlikely). And you will spend nothing on repairs for the civic.

My conclusion 99% of the time it is cheaper to use the car that you “OWN”.”

Change your underwear much?

I mean, come on, for $11/month your going to hang onto an old car that breaks down more often. You’re not putting much value on your time nor the environment.
Grizzly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Statik #19

““According to Bloomberg News, NHTSA has received 19 complaints about the G6s power steering failing, so far resulting in two crashes and one injury”

*** *** ***

It’s my understanding that the earliest prototypes could actually seize. Not sure whether any of those ever made it into vehicles but I doubt it. If that happened there would have probably been more than 2 crashes. It’s also my understanding that the failure rate is very low and as has been mentioned, it results in powerless assist, but not a seizure.
Grizzly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

Frank B #75

“A little change of subject. Have they said anything about the A/C yet. That will have to be electric as well.”

*** *** ***

I don’t know that much has been mentioned recently. Around the time Frank Weber took over as VLE for E-flex he stated that the AC would be low consumption electric and it would be made by the German co. Baer.
Ron Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

Hey, as long as we’re comparing apples to oranges, try this comparison:
I own an old Ford dump truck that gets 4 MPG. Yes, that’s four, not fourteen. Insurance is about 20 bucks a month. I commute 7 miles each way. Assuming the Volt costs 40K, gets financed for 5 years, and insurance is 120 per month for full coverage (feel free to substitute your own insurance rates if you’ve had accidents…) the total cost of ownership/operation equation is… drum roll please….. I should commute in the dump truck!

Somebody double check my math, but I’m pretty sure I can eat dinner at Texas Roadhouse twice a week on the money I save by commuting in my dump truck instead of buying a Volt.

BTW, I’m number 2216 on the waiting list.
Grizzly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

Ron #87

We’ve been over and over this on this site. Anyone driving a gas guzzling SUV could never justify the purchase of a Yaris on gas savings paying for the vehicle over time.

The fact is that almost every year up until the present 16-17 million Americans buy a new vehicle either because they want one or they need it.
Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

#85 Grizzly

“It’s my understanding that the earliest prototypes could actually seize. Not sure whether any of those ever made it into vehicles but I doubt it. If that happened there would have probably been more than 2 crashes. It’s also my understanding that the failure rate is very low and as has been mentioned, it results in powerless assist, but not a seizure.”

I completely understand what you are saying, but I don’t what percentage of failures would be reported to the NHTSA. It’s not like we are talking about the door falling off, alot of people just get the failure and take it back to GM to get fixed.

All I know is that I am 1 for 1 on it happening to me. It almost got my wife ‘T-Boned’ and maybe dead…and just last week, so I’m probably not going to come around to ANY about of ‘common sense’ deductions by posters here, lol.

The situation was/is bad enough that GM said they were going to sent letters to all owners of Malibus and G6s (which I never got, lol) and they extended the warranty to 7 years, and the actual GM mechanic said he sees it ‘all the time’…so personally, I’m pretty confident there is a problem.
Grizzly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Statik #89

What I’m interested in is the nature of the failure. I’m not belittling a failure and the associated danger, just that there is still a difference between a failed assist and a seizure.
The Grump Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

#70 Rudy - See #89 - If these units are “proven” as you say, why are mechanics fixing these defective units all the time?

#71 Van - Yes, there is a reason why electric steering units fail more often than old fashioned hydraulic pump units - they are more complex. Also, sensor driven units are relatively new technology vs old as dirt hydraulic units. And let’s not forget, it could be just bad GM design - steering units without redundant backup sensors is just poor (cheap) design, and it’s going to get someone killed, eventually.

Speaking of cheap, electric steering replacement cost - $2,000.00 per unit. New power steering pump belt - $20.00. Being right - priceless. (for everything else, there is Mastercard). Now gimme my product placement check !
Jim G Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

#82 Motown
#13 Cire
Yup, my Dad’s ‘53 Buick Skylark not only had the hydraulic windows, front and rear, the front seat was hydraulic too! The top was hydraulic, but it was off of a different motor. The problem with the window hydraulics was that the window dropped a bit before going up when the check valve opened. Even worse was the tendency for leaks where the fluid ate the paint off the rocker panels. My dad started using brake fluid instead since it was kinder to the paint.

That was one cool car, though. It also had an electric power antenna, and a “Selectronic” radio, where you could tap a button on the floor by the high beam switch, and it would seek the next station. You never had to take your hands off the steering wheel! Which was hyrdaulic power steering, by the way.
ausmartin Says:
August 9th, 2008 at 4:26 am

Eg. Europeon even Japanese manufactures there like Toyota has been using EPS on the Europeon built Yaris for ages.
GM is just starting ? and has issues ??
Think EPS is great - no hydraulic pump no wasting energy, & easier /quicker build time for manufacture of the auto. Theoretically more reliable - electic actuators in industry have been around since age of the first donkey.
PS.
The steering fell at medium speeds was bad on initial EPS, but all manufactures are getting much better !
So goodbye hydraulic’s —- Hello electric’s.
Oh and if GM has any EPS quality problems - Check out the /Euro Auto’s and reverse engineer. How hard can it be ?
Van Says:
August 9th, 2008 at 10:39 am

Hi Grump, the EPS units appear to be less complex than the old as dirt hydraulic units, they are smaller and have fewer parts. But certainly a digital controller that is programmable is more complex than hydraulic controller. I like the idea that if the engine stalls, I do not loose my power assist as I roll to a stop. Makes getting off the road easier. I think Honda or Acura came out with EPS in the early 1990″s and GM came out with it around 2002. There has certainly been some bumps in the road but EPS is the future and it is better.
William Says:
August 9th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

#50

Don’t judge the quality of the battery just by the warranty. The 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid (of which I am a happy owner) has a warranty of 10 years/150000 miles standard (at least in California) on its NiMH battery. This is on a piece of equipment that has been thoroughly tested in New York City taxis just prove it would last. Maybe I missed something else about the battery though, that would lead you to doubt the battery based on the warranty.
Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Ausmartin #93, for infomation

GM has EPS since a long time in the Opel brand.

My Opel Corsa (A Corsa C whose design goes back to 2000) has a fine EPS system, very precise, without any problem and very useful in urban traffic.
Pat Says:
August 12th, 2008 at 9:54 am

Please correct me if I am wrong but in a car with EPS if the engine fails you still can steer easily. In a hydraulic system any engine failure will cause a loss of steering and very heavy steering at that. I have had that happen a few times. I would expect that because there is no hydraulics in the path that an EPS would steer like a none boosted car. Most people are not familiar with that anymore, but was common on small cars years ago. I would expect the volt to feel real nice at speed and will use no power.

P.
Tom Says:
August 12th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Anyone ever drive a ’60s muscle car with with a big block v-8 which came factory equipped with manual worm-gear steering (in other words NO P/S)? If you ever have you know what mean. It was REALLY DIFFICULT to turn when at rest or moving only a few miles per hour. However once it was moving over 10 mph, it really wasn’t so bad. I don’t know what the weight of the front end of the VOLT will be, but I CAN’T possibly imagine it to be ANYWHERE near a big block equipped 1960’s muscle car, right? That being said, I would NOT be a very happy camper if my $45,000 Volt lost p/s,,,, so,,, GM,,,, let’s get this right, huh? Don’t gain my trust (and money) only to disappoint, k? Thanks buddy.
David Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:40 am

My MINI Cooper S (will be sold when the Volt is available) uses an electric/hydraulic setup that works very well. Basically, the power steeriing assist is via conventional hydraulic pressure. However, the hydraulic pressure is achieved via an electric motor (i.e. the hydraulic pump is not driven directly off the engine). The electric motor has three power modes: off - steering straight ahead, low (or variable speed - higher vehicle speed steering inputs. Hight speed - low vehicle speed/parking manuevers.

The only time I notice the steering system is with the top down and thus can hear the whine (normal) of the electric motor while parking/low speeds.

So, what would be the advantages of one over the other types system (electric/hydraulic vs. EPS)?
Hal Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 1:21 am

I like the idea of the Volt and I wish GM every success. However, if the car is going to be more than $30,000 then I will have to stick with my Prius. Even though it is a “gas guzzler” by comparison it is also affordable and will have greater range than the Volt ( the Volt initially had a range similar to the Prius but was reduced due to a smaller gas tank, the new range is about 400 miles, Prius around 600). Not only that the Prius has already been proven to go more than 250,000 miles and even then showed no signs of being used up.
While I like the idea of an electric car, gasoline remains a great fuel. It is plentiful and portable. it has certainly proven useful in getting people from one point to another. The Prius has proven that it can be burned more efficiently and clean when combined with some relatively easy modifications to how things are done. Electronic drive by-wire in the accelerator, breaking, steering and shifting and air-conditioning have proven what can be done to ease the load on the engine. Even the gas tank has been improved to keep gas vapors from escaping. All this adds up to efficiency at an affordable price. Once the Volt gets to a price for the “Rest of us” then it will be time to swap from the Prius.
stas peterson Says:
August 15th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

#99

Typical German Engineering. Twice the complexity, at half the reliability, and at four times the cost.

Twice as many things to go wrong.
stas peterson Says:
August 16th, 2008 at 12:05 am

Statik’s investment philosophy which he sahred withus is to: Buy High and Sell Low. He reads all the drivel produced by the real expanding business in the USA, phony tort lawyers. And their pet professional publicity agents, creating ever more targets to sue.

I have had an auto engine stall several times; only to lose PS, and have had to wrestle with a car, unexpectedly. EPS fails only on a component failure, not a simple power shutdown.

Chevy Volt Chief Engineer on the Volt’s Electric Power Steering System

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