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Nissan Previews Its Electric Car, Called by Some a “Volt Fighter”

August 7th, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors

For a while Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn has claimed Nissan plans to move heavily into electric cars and have a pure EV available in the US in 2010.

At its Advanced Technology Briefing in Tokyo they unveiled a mule-car prototype of the upcoming electric sedan.

Although the mule uses a Cube design, the production car is expected to have a unique style unlike any of their present vehicles.

The new Nissan electric houses an 80 kW electric motor and has a front-wheel drive setup. Reporters who test drove it suggested acceleration is peppy and the car easily achieved 100 km/hr.

The vehicle is powered by lithium-ion batteries manufactured by the joint Nissan-NEC venture called AESC, which plans to invest $12 billion USD over the next three years to build battery production facilities.

The lithium-ion cells use a manganese-spinel cathode, and the pack weighs in at 300 kg, about 50% heavier than that of the Volt. The pack sits under the rear seat pushing it upwards.

The electric range has not been given, but Ghosn has previously said he felt 100 miles would be appropriate for the US market.

No word on cost, and no range-extender.

Source (Green Car Congress )

Posted by: Lyle

195 Responses to “Nissan Previews Its Electric Car, Called by Some a “Volt Fighter””

bruce g Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:02 am

We had better focus some attention on this vehicle, perhaps this is the successor to Grandma Ducks car.
It looks like Grandma ducks car….

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Cire Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:19 am

I wonder what the drag coeficient is on that lil boxer

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Jim I Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:23 am

BMW is also going electric with the Mini Cooper.

A very small volume and all for Califonia, but here next year….

I did not know if the link would work, but here is the text:

Electric MINI Cooper coming to the U.S.
By Alex Nunez, Forecast Earth Correspondent Posted Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:47pm PDT

If you’re looking for a fun drive, it’s hard not to recommend the MINI Cooper. They’re stylish, handle great, and as a bonus, get impressive fuel economy.

The standard Cooper, when equipped with a 6-speed manual transmission, is rated by the EPA at 28 mpg city and 37 mpg highway.

If that’s too small for you, you can step up to the lengthened Clubman model, which boasts identical numbers. I drove the latter earlier this year and averaged 31 miles per gallon over a week of mixed driving. Even the sportier, turbocharged “S” models have 34 mpg highway ratings. If the size works for you, the MINI offers a great mix of dynamics and efficiency.

Thirty-seven miles per gallon’s nothing compared to the next trick MINI has up ts sleeve, though. Starting next year, the automaker will offer all-electric Coopers in the United States. Green Fuels Forecast reports that MINI’s U.S. VP, Jim McDowell, was taken by surprise when parent company BMW made the announcement, but he went on to confirm that the cars will indeed arrive sometime next summer. Since BMW plans to use lithium ion batteries in its upcoming hybrids, it’s probable that they’ll also supply the juice for the factory MINI EV. Published reports put the number of cars planned at 500, with California naturally receiving the lion’s share, but apparently that could change. McDowell also told Green Fuels Forecast that the electric MINI could wind up being rolled out nationwide.

Whether the cars will be sold or leased hasn’t yet been decided, but either way, the MINI EV should make a huge splash when it lands in the marketplace. We’re looking forward to hearing additional details as they become confirmed, but mostly, we just want to try the thing out when it arrives. Until the EV arrives, MINI’s hands will remain full — in the U.S. they’re selling every car they get, and they’re trying to get an increased allotment to keep up with growing demand.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:25 am

If Nissan can get this to market with a price under $20,000, people will overlook the lack of range-extender and buy it as their families “Local Car” for work commuting and shopping. People will line up for this one. Cost is of course the key.

A second vehicle with a range-extender would still be a “must have” for most families.

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FME III Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:33 am

Nissan should be targeting this car to other countries, not those like the U.S. and Australia that span a continent. A 100-mile range will not suffice for most Americans, who need a car that can make a road trip from time to time. Given all the other cost estimates for EVs in the works by Smart, Th!nk et al, I expect it will cost $30,000 or more. At that price, it could fill a niche market of affluent people who can afford an extra car to drive only around town. But it won’t serve the masses.

GM’s Volt is an effort to bridge the difference and offer the best of both worlds.

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bruce g Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:41 am

I find it interesting how easy it is to blow away the mantra of the volt.
“80% of trips less than 40 miles”
How about a new mantra.

“nissan go..Volt no”

Or the old stadium song..
” Why are we waiting”

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DC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:55 am

GM will probably laugh this off like they usually do – and watch as the automotive world speeds right by them.

Slowly but surely you are starting to hear more and more leaks of EV solutions from other manufacturers.

I think what this shows is that GM is certainly not the only player in this game anymore. Maybe they thought they were, I dont know. But a $40,000 car with a 40 mile EV range + range extender is suddenly not looking all that hot. I’ll be interested to see what happens in this market in the next 6-8 months leading up to the major auto shows next year. Wouldnt be surprised to hear a bunch more exciting news. Although not exciting for GM Im afraid

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Brad G Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:57 am

GM’s Volt is causing a revolution that can’t be stopped. All the automakers are getting in the act.

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ThomC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:58 am

I can’t see Nissan’s point. I completely understand targeted vehicles: I have an F-150 pickup to haul “stuff” and a Pontiac Vibe for everything else. Either one will take me 400+ miles on a fill up.

But I do believe I’d have a nervous breakdown if I were constantly worrying about a hard 100 mile range. I’ve had a 100 mile vehicle: a Suzuki TL1000S, a sport motorcycle with no reserve tank (fuel injected engine) and it drove me crazy constantly watching the trip meter.

In Europe, the typical citizen could go for the better part of a work week and not go 100 miles. In the U.S. everythings just too damned far away from everything else. You can chew up 100 miles on one shopping trip.

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DC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:01 am

Nissan/Infiniti announce G35 hybrids/electrics:

http://g35driver.com/forums/g35-sedan-07/237195-g35-hybrid.html

As far as the Volt being a revolution that cant be stopped – well, I doubt that. The other automakers appear to be pretty far along in their development as well, this is more than just jumping on board and saying we’re going to do this too.

I think what it *does* show is that GM cant think its just going to drop a plain looking car on the market at a high price point and expect it to sell, just because its the Volt.

Believe me, I am 4,000 or something on the “waiting list” so I would be thrilled if the Volt came to market at a reasonable pricepoint and with great looks/specs.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:05 am

Couple, things. I may have mentioned some of these before…not sure, but I’ll go over it.

A) “The lithium-ion cells use a manganese-spinel cathode, and the pack weighs in at 300 kg, about 50% heavier than that of the Volt.”

–50% heavier is true, however the pack is much, much larger. And the battery specs are superior and cheaper to produce than what the Volt is bench testing (Click the link if you are interested in the ‘nitty-gritty’ of the battery)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html

B) “The vehicle is powered by lithium-ion batteries manufactured by the joint Nissan-NEC venture called AESC, which plans to invest $12 billion USD over the next three years to build battery production facilities”

12 billion to BUILD THEIR OWN. Monster numbers, monster committment. I’ve said it before, but first it was Mitsu, then Toyota and now Nissan showing committment. These companies are making GM look bad, they are out building plants, making batteries and spending billions of dollars building out large vattery capacity well in advance (and we are just talking battery here), while GM drags it’s feet, spending well over a year to JUST CHOOSE a supplier. A billion to develop the Volt? That was a big number a year or so ago, but now it sounds like they are about 9-15 billion light in that department now to compete with their peers.

C) “The electric range has not been given, but Ghosn has previously said he felt 100 miles would be appropriate for the US market.”

I figure 100 miles makes it considered by about 80% of the population, which is a big market.

D) “No word on cost, and no range-extender.”

I don’t think we are getting a number out of any of these manufacturers until you can actually go to the dealer and order one…”MAYBE” will might get it at the Detroit autoshow. Ironically, it is set to debut there as well, lol.

Summary: We are lucky we can keep holding onto the ‘range-extender’ bit, because it is the only thing GM still has going for it. Of course it is putting a huge strain on the bottom line number of the car, but it might just be enough to capitalize on the ‘top 10%’ wealthiest of that 20% that won’t go pure EV…or 2% of the market.

Saying all of that, I figure GM’s configuration and look is owning that 2% of the market, GM has no competition (yet) from it’s peers in this segment…and honestly, that is still pretty big

(See, I surprised you. I changed it around and got all positive at the end…it’s to disguise my send to the dogs)

PS) I think my Mitsu link as well (a thread or two back) of 500% production increase in battery production for 2009 is a really big deal too. They are not just talking…they are doing, “feet on the ground” as they say. It kind of got lost in that thread…seems relevant again, so I’ll repost it)

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/06/mitsubishi-yuasa-quintuple-lithium-ion-production-before-it-eve/

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:11 am

If it had about a 150 mile range, I would buy it.
100 miles is too short for my 101 mile (98% highway) daily commute.

Franky, I not too sure how this can be a “Volt Fighter” without a range extender.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:13 am

ThomC #9.

Yup. Well said. I don’t see it working here either.

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Dave B Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:23 am

Glad to see the competition, and frankly, will bite at the first vehicle available that weens my family off of oil. I don’t care much what the vehicle looks like, as troops are still dying daily. Echoing the sentiments above, COST IS KEY.

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Tagamet Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:29 am

Clearly, the Volt could use some publicity, even 2 years (or less) before its release. Lyle’s done a great job when he gets the shot to promote (eg WBZ Radio) but I think that we need to get him some “face time” on TV. How many people don’t even know of the Volt’s NAME to “google it”, which would get them here. In the last couple of weeks I’ve sent out “feelers” to about 2 dozen shows, from Bill O’Reillley to Larry King and Jay Leno. I hit all the major news networks, morning talk shows and a host of others. I know it’s a long shot, but who cares? It’s pretty likely that it won’t happen without people (READ US) asking.
Be well,
Tag

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Kevin R Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:31 am

When are we going to see the final design already? I know it’s slated for showing to employees and then god forbid, January at the Detroit Auto Show. GM needs to show the thing now….get the buzz going and their stocks out of the doldrums….

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Arthur Morrison Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:41 am

Have a look at rechargeit.org. They have published amazing stats of 93MPG (US) for its plugin Prius fleet (using Hymotion upgrade pack). This includes a 40 mile EV only range.

This trial has been running for a year so the concept works NOW with no technology/battery breakthroughs or risk required. Toyota could announce something similar for the 2009 Prius. Such a move over a year before the Volt will be very damaging for the Volt as the Plugin In Prius will probably sell for around $30,000 compared to the Volt’s estimated $40,000.

Since its only a small mod to the current Prius they will be able to produce hundreds of thousands a year unlike the Volt that will only be produced initially in small numbers. If E-REV Volt cannot offer better price/performance than Google have already demonstrated with the Prius then GM could well be stuffed before they start.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:49 am

The Volt design is the best for me because I would be more comfortable with EREV. However, I can live with a Mitsu iMIEV or Nissan BEV as my commute is only 20 miles round trip. So far it appears that there are battery commitments for the Mitsu and for the Nissan but no definite battery commitment on contract for the Volt.

Is anything happening on the Volt’s batteries?

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Joe Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:00 am

FME III Says@5

“Nissan should be targeting this car to other countries, not those like the U.S. and Australia that span a continent. A 100-mile range will not suffice for most Americans, who need a car that can make a road trip from time to time. Given all the other cost estimates for EVs in the works by Smart, Th!nk et al, I expect it will cost $30,000 or more. At that price, it could fill a niche market of affluent people who can afford an extra car to drive only around town. But it won’t serve the masses.

GM’s Volt is an effort to bridge the difference and offer the best of both worlds.”

**********************************************************

I totally agree with you on these points.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:02 am

#14 Dave B

“Glad to see the competition, and frankly, will bite at the first vehicle available that weens my family off of oil. I don’t care much what the vehicle looks like, as troops are still dying daily. Echoing the sentiments above, COST IS KEY.”

Exactly, this has always been my thing too. Except for the troops dying part…I don’t buy new cars based on the military deaths, lol. That just doesn’t feel like a good rationalization. (Besides, didn’t the gov’t say it had nothing to do with oil? Hehe, oh no I didn’t go there).

Honestly, I have zero loyalty to GM. If Ford, Chrysler or Toyota (the HORROR) would have had the Volt or been ‘first out’ of the major autos, I would be over there right now. And to this day, I retain my ‘non-loyalty,’ I’m going to own a electric car, and it is going to be the first one out that I can buy (and have serviced locally).

I’m going to be the first in my city, on my block with one. When there is a waiting list for any of them, I am there and my money is down, even if that means I end up owning two EVs.

Sure, my actions in the past show I care about the environment (solar panels, high efficiency lights/appliances, etc.), and yes even though Canada is a net exporter of oil, I’d still like to see the US free of middle east oil, but lets be honest with ourselves as well…

A EV IS REALLY COOL!

…and I like to own cool stuff and I like to show cool stuff off as well. I don’t have a problem admitting I’m human, (pause for people to think of quick pun or joke here). I’m a selfish person at heart (you are too, if your honest with yourself).

I want ‘the best’ things for myself and my family. I also want people to look at me and know, “that dude has got his life together, he has a good family and has great stuff too”–totally selfish, I admit it.

This (the first EV) is the perfect vehicle to satisfy two of my personal wants, “good for the world” and “good for me.” I can have my cake and eat it too.

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volton Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:03 am

Come on, 100 miles is plenty of range for most people’s daily drives. Just don’t forget to plug in at night. I would prefer this over the Volt because I am not lugging a dead weight ICE around.

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Adam Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:09 am

Actually, y’all are going to think that I’m on crack, or something.. Look at it this way. This thing Mitsu, and Nissan are building actually complements the Volt.

The Volt is known for a short BEV mode, and a efficient gas engine to keep it going, or the other 2 producers will go 100, but no extender. Well my point is, the Volt would be a commuter car, and Mitsu, and Nissan could be “Town Cars”.. I’m sure Nissan and Mitsu want their cars to be commuter cars, and they could be – for some people, or for others, they could be their town car. I think it’s a good thing, just wish it was closer to 200 miles from 100, but it’s a start.

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Brian M Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:12 am

Did anyone else notice it has “EV-02″ written across the side? Is this a shot across GM’s bow? (referring to EV1?)

Ironically they are making the same mistake as GM did with the EV1: a lot of people will not buy a car with only a 100 mile range. Remember, one of the main reasons we are excited about the Volt is the fact that it eliminates range anxiety.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:13 am

Many of us can commute for several days on 100 miles, so if a night is missed for charging, it doesn’t matter.

I agree than many trips in the USA require a considerably longer range, but my family has more than one car. Some can be BEV and others traditional ICE, or if we are fortunate EREV. We will keep our truck, for sometimes it is indispensible. No one vehicle has to do everything.

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omegaman66 Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:13 am

Again it never ceases to amaze me that people can’t come to realize that it doesn’t matter what MOST drivers need when production numbers are going to be so small.

Not everyone has the same length commute. I know people that drive an hour and a half to get to work and others that drive 4 miles. One size does not fit all.

And geez… don’t assume any EV is going to sell for 20K when the range is going to be 100miles!!! Batteries are currently expensive enough so that the 20K will be eaten up by the batteries alone.

And another thing. I don’t know if anything has changed but Nissan was saying that their first ev’s were going to fleets not individuals.

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BeFair Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:15 am

I am not sure people realize quite how restrictive a hard 100 mile range is on a day to day basis. As most know, 100 miles may vary, given traffic, or some rapid acceleration, and it drops below 100. If you do an average commute, pick up some groceries on the way home, suddenly you have chewed up 50 miles or so.

Now imagine you need to pick the kids up from soccer practice, it is 10 miles away, do you really, really feel that comfortable that the car won’t leave you stranded a couple miles from the house?

How many drive their car to the point where there is only 20 miles or so before empty? Some do, most don’t. Most want a bigger cushion, that is why many fill up at a quarter of a tank. And that is with gas stations at every corner, and not a multi-hour charge time.

The range extender is a big, big deal.

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Joe Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:15 am

“When are we going to see the final design already? I know it’s slated for showing to employees and then god forbid, January at the Detroit Auto Show. GM needs to show the thing now….get the buzz going and their stocks out of the doldrums”

**********************************************************

Are the major competitors showing? No. I don’t see why GM has to show what’s up their sleeve. By doing so it can put them at a disadvantage and at this time, they don’t need that.

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Dave B Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Statik, I played around with the Gravitar before I read your post–damned if we don’t think alike sometimes. I think I need to seek counseling…

I would assume however, GM is one SIMPLE decision away from swapping out the 40 mile pack for a larger pack and axing the ICE for a BEV with 100 mile range. This is not rocket science (sorry Nasaman), and is a whole new platform for GM. Not a whole lot of expense and everything to gain. It may be Volt 2.0, however, it’d put GM right up there with Nissan who apparently is looking like the leader in affordable BEVs (because Mitsu won’t sell their darn MiEV here and Tesla’s Roadster is just too darn expensive).

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perp Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Most of the Li-ion batteries used at present have an energy density of 120 Wh/kg (like the Tesla roadster). Using this value and knowing that the E-cars travel 7 – 10 km/kWh, then the Nissan battery with 300 kg weight would have a capacity of 36 kWh giving a range of about 305 km or 190 miles. This should be sufficient for most purposes.

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NZDavid Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Does anyone else think the Nissan looks like an anorexic hummer?

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Texas Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Two observations:

1) This cube design is extremely popular in Japan. You can fit a lot in there, even us tall Americans with our several cases of beer.

2) My God you could fit a lot of solar panels on that roof!

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:19 am

#17 Arthur Morrison

“Have a look at rechargeit.org. They have published amazing stats of 93MPG (US) for its plugin Prius fleet (using Hymotion upgrade pack). This includes a 40 mile EV only range…

Since its only a small mod to the current Prius they will be able to produce hundreds of thousands a year unlike the Volt that will only be produced initially in small numbers. If E-REV Volt cannot offer better price/performance than Google have already demonstrated with the Prius then GM could well be stuffed before they start.”

Couple items. I’m very familar with the Hymotion pack. I think you have a fact inverted. “This includes a 40 mile EV only range,” is not accurate, it is “…achieve(s) up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles” as per the site.

http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/products/N5_range_extender

Additionally, they cannot produce “hundred of thousands” because, well they can’t. There is no plant with capacity backing them up.

The problem facing ALL auto manufacturers/modifiers is not actually producing the cars/shells it is the availability of the batterys…that is why the Nissan 12 billion and Mitsu/Toyota’s investments to build plants is significant news. Right now, there is little to no infrastructure built up…mostly because the price of gas has instigated a market shift years ahead of it’s expected arrival date.

And lastly, “If E-REV Volt cannot offer better price/performance than Google have already demonstrated with the Prius then GM could well be stuffed before they start.” I agree with you on this somewhat.

However, that is only true if GM ‘dumbs-down’ the Volt so much that it is indistinguishable from the Prius. GM’s price makes it niche to the eventual overall industry, they should market it as such…nothing wrong with that.

There is alot of competitors coming to market, but the Volt is still the only one that doesn’t look like (and I love saying this) “a nerd’s shoe”…as long as GM keeps it ‘hot’ and markets it as such (electric sport/luxury), they will have no problems selling everyone they build.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Using the Cube as a mule makes sense – plenty of room for batteries and test / measurement equipment. I don’t know that I would show it off as a mule, as they might turn off customers before they even develop their final design.

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kent beuchert Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:21 am

We can all wave to any Ghosn “pure” electrics as their owners
releagte them to the garage in order to drive a gas powered vehicle and follow us to those destinations over 45 miles away, which are beyond the limit of that “pure” electric, producing way more than twice the emissions/gasoline consumption of our Volt. Ah, the wonderfully bizarre logic of Ghosn, the man who a year or so ago was declaring electric cars in any form to be economically ridiculous and swore he’d never build one. Why does he therefore seem just as dumb today as he did back then?

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Tim Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Nissan will do VERY well with this car IF it can be priced right.

The world auto market is HUGE! It may be shrinking with the middle class in the socialist US, but it’s growing exponentially along with the middle class in capitalist China. (Yes, you heard me right and I say this because political actions are stronger than words. The more freedom the people have from government intervention, the richer and broader their middle class becomes.)

Anyway, there is lots of room for all kinds of niche vehicles. 100 mile range is PLENTY for 92% of the US commuter market (US has all the urban sprawl) and even a higher percent of Europe’s and Asia’s commuters.

Some battery “experts” are saying that within 5 years, battery cost will be reduced by a factor of 5 while density will be increased by that same amount. Yes, even A123’s current design will be eclipsed due to free market demand and capitalism’s need to fill a market vacuum.

We’ll see…

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Jim I Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:22 am

What’s with all the negative vibes here man????

Did I read a positng from Lyle than the rest of you? Here is some of what I thought it said:

“The car easily reached 100 km/hr.” WOW! That is a whole 60 mph! If GM posted that spec, you guys would be calling it a total disaster!!!

“They “PLAN” to spend on battery manufacturing facilities over the next three years.” You all make it sound like the battery packs are already in a wharehouse ready for installation. Unless you have pictures of the bulldozers clearing ground for the plant, it is just a statement.

“The production car is expected to have a unique style unlike any of their present vehicles.” So where are the pictures of the production vehicle like you are all demanding from GM????

“He felt 100 miles would be appropriate for the US market.” There was a huge posting here recently where everyone was so unhappy that the Volt would “ONLY” have a total range of 350 miles.

I am sorry, but there seems to be a large double standard going on here…… Comparing a BEV to an E-REV is an exercise in futility. They are different types of vehicles for completely different applications.

If a 100 mile BEV is what you want and need, fine. But for many people an E-REV is what is desired and needed. And I hardly think that this BEV puts GM out of the market!

Lighten up, guys!!!!

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:24 am

#31 Texas

“1) This cube design is extremely popular in Japan. You can fit a lot in there, even us tall Americans with our several cases of beer.
2) My God you could fit a lot of solar panels on that roof!”

You love coming back to the solar, hehe.

#29 perp

“Most of the Li-ion batteries used at present have an energy density of 120 Wh/kg (like the Tesla roadster). Using this value and knowing that the E-cars travel 7 – 10 km/kWh, then the Nissan battery with 300 kg weight would have a capacity of 36 kWh giving a range of about 305 km or 190 miles. This should be sufficient for most purposes.”

They haven’t given exact numbers, but they have said it will be around 100 miles.

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Texas Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:25 am

One more observation:

Is it me or does that remind anyone else of a generic labeled product. It just says “test car”. Even has the correct paint job. I like it!

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jehrler Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:31 am

The question for me, living in Minnesota, is does an EV mileage range of 100 miles only apply in Southern California on flat topography?

For me, the beauty of the Volt is that I can confidently drive to and from work on a -40F day.

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Harry Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:31 am

*New to posting, been lurking for a while now*

The Volt is what I want for the way my life is structured right now. I have a daily commute that would use no gas with a Volt, however, I have other things going on in my life during the evenings that require more drive time. At least 3 nights a week in the summer, I drive over 100 miles total between work and “play”. If I got one of the BEV cars, I would be mostly screwed 3 days a week, minimum. However, with the range extender, I can go as far as I like, no problem. I won’t be lugging around a dead weight ICE. I will be using it regularly.

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jehrler Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:34 am

To followup, in the above I was only thinking about battery degradation in the cold, but the other issue on a cold day is *heat* for the passenger compartment.

For an ICE heat is a no brainer given all the waste heat. But for an EV heating the passengers *has* to come from the battery stores. Think about the juice used by your toaster or hair dryer.

Is this factored into these EV equations?

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:38 am

#29 perp presents data on likely battery size and range for Nissan

Thank you. You gave us a simple way to get some good estimates.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:46 am

Although greater range would be nice I think there is a big US market for BEV cars with 100 mile range. Reviewing facts as distinct from opinions, the Chrysler GEM cars and some ZENN models are successful now, that is, people buy them now. That’s so even though they have only 30 miles range and too low a top speed to be suitable for highways. They show, however, that there is a big market for “city” cars.

Not every vehicle design has to serve every purpose.
The new Camaro does not have to be a truck.
The Nissan can be successful and the Volt too.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:52 am

#9 ThomC
“But I do believe I’d have a nervous breakdown if I were constantly worrying about a hard 100 mile range”
#12 Rashiid
“Franky, I not too sure how this can be a “Volt Fighter” without a range extender.”
#26 BeFair
“I am not sure people realize quite how restrictive a hard 100 mile range is on a day to day basis.”
#35 Tim
#36 Jim I

I posted another link originally to this topic a couple threads ago, and it had the actually press release attached. In it, it mentions that Nissan actually has another variantion coming to market, a HEV.

Here is the snippet of the information about the HEV:

“The parallel-powertrain system comprises an energy-optimizing system with two clutches, where one motor is directly connected to an engine and transmission via two separate clutches. Under changing driving conditions, the motor switches between the two clutches to optimize and conserve energy utilization as well as improve fuel-efficiency. ”

It is basically the same set-up as the Prius, only this time it is not ACTUALLY a Prius system under the hood. In essence it is still just a hybrid, but with Lithium batteries (should get the 50+MPG like the Prius).

However, at one of the press mixers, it was mentioned that it does allow for a greater capacity Lithium battery/plug-in application to be added as a option, potentially allowing it to ‘travel distances’ under EV power alone, with the engine to kick in at exhaustion. (akin to the Plug-In Prius). Still not ‘the Volt,’ but similar in aspects…and possibly a undistinguishable difference to the general population.

Linky: (official press release down at bottom of article)

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/05/nissan-shows-off-next-gen-green-vehicl/

…it’s still a big ugly box though, so that means somthing, lol

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:54 am

WIth all the emerging competition, will the Volt save GM?

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Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:57 am

Why not make the range extender detachable? I have one now it’s a 6kW Onan on wheels, burns CNG, LPG, or gasoline. Can I get my VOLT with out the ICE and replace it with a trailer hitch?

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Spin Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:58 am

I have a 120 mile round trip commute, with the ability to plug in at work. I am thinking this vehicle might be a better choice for me than the Volt. With the Volt I would have to use some gas. With the Nissan I would use none. For about $1000 I could build my own range extender trailer to use when needed. If this vehicle comes in $10,000 cheaper than the Volt, it seems like a no brainer for me.

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Solo Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:10 am

I agree with BeFair: ‘The range extender is a big, big deal’.

The vast majority of electric vehicles will be marketed in California first. It is the biggest car market and the climate is conducive to maximizing the range of electric vehicles. GM’s EV1 second generation claimed a range of 120 miles. I doubt if any owner driven EV1 EVER went 120 miles on a charge in California traffic. GM only sold 800 of these things because they could only find 800 buyers. “Who Killed The Electric Car”? Consumers did. The EV 1 was the best of its breed by a long shot and it could not sell. I’m sure RANGE was the big reason.

Just like this web sight where everybody has signed up on a waiting list to buy a Volt, I honestly doubt one in ten on the list will buy the car when it is available because the higher cost will not justify the benefits compared to 40+ mpg cars (1 from GM) that will be available at the time.

Yet the Volt and plug in hybrid’s in general WILL sell very well because you can get home with gas and you don’t have to set the cruise control at 50 mph on a 75 mph highway to try to save power.

If Nissan wants to market pure electric vehicles to the U.S. public, God bless them. In California a handful of green companies may put electric outlets in their parking lots, most won’t.

The volt can be recharged overnight with a 15 amp 120 volt household outlet. I bet Nissan will require a 40 or 60 amp 240 volt outlet OR a unique charging station (like the EV1). The EV1’s charging station was built for a reason, Safety. Soccer mom’s with wet hands and feet will be dropping like fly’s plugging in a 240 volt cord into a hot outlet.

With the EV’1, you can buy a ground fault outlet for 10 bucks and protect your soccer mom’s life. They don’t make ground fault outlets for 240 volt; you have to install a ground fault breaker which requires an electrician of a homeowner with a clue.

I welcome anybody’s comments; let me know if I’m all wet (before I plug in a Nissan!).

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vincent Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:11 am

GM lit the flames of competition when they made the EV-1.
Lets hope it all works out and GM follows through with a fantastic Volt.

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Cautious Fan Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:14 am

Off Topic. Lotus is adding speakers so pedestrians hear the car. I know Nasaman said previously you’d disconnect it, but I think it’s probably a good idea. A few blind people getting killed would create a big PR problem and give opponents an “banner” to attack them on.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/07/lotus-safe-and-sound-technology-gives-hybrids-a-voice/

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DC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:16 am

For those of us, which I think is a lot, we live in cities or have real long commutes and think that’s the norm for the US. Its not. I dont remember the numbers but I think that *most* people could get by easily with a 100 mile range. Sure I have a 30 mile one way commute but I live in a big metropolitan area.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:16 am

#39/#40 jehrler

“The question for me, living in Minnesota, is does an EV mileage range of 100 miles only apply in Southern California on flat topography?”

“To followup, in the above I was only thinking about battery degradation in the cold, but the other issue on a cold day is *heat* for the passenger compartment….Is this factored into these EV equations?”

This is a really good question, given the drastic differences in topography/climate how do you truely know, at least until you are driving it yourself?

I think the answer is, you really can’tknow, and you certainly can’t trust a automaker on their specs anyway (at least the new EPA standards came along, that was/is a big help).

The best answer I guess is if there is one at a dealership (that sounds realistic), you take it out on a full charge and drive it for a hour or two, lol.

It reminds me of air conditioners. I live in Canada, Toronto specifically. I have a A/C unit for the one day a year it gets over 25 degrees. (Thats like 77F to most of you, and honestly it runs probably 100 days of the year).

However, when I was going about purchasing it, the website (US based) says that I need a 5 ton unit for 4,000 square feet. ($5,000 bucks installed) What?

How on earth can you measure by square feet. Are you telling me that I need the same 5 ton A/C unit that a guy in Phoenix needs trying to contain 110 degree weather needs? Crazy! Where is the scale? I checked some other sites that adjust for location (sorta) it changed by like half a ton on estimates…again, what?

I call my A/C guy (who sold me a 3 ton on my last house, about 2,600 sq feet), I tell him my story, he says, “Well, thats sorta right I guess, you should be ok with a 4 ton.” Cost? $4,000. Now, as I am prone to do, I call BS on the whole thing and go my own path.

I get a guy (that actually works at GM, lol…and moonlights as a A/C guy) to install a 1.5 ton for $1,100 total. The 1.5 ton is ’supposed’ to only cool 700-1,000 square feet. I’ve owned it now for two seasons now, never had a problem, my house is as cool as can be…and my house has never drawn more than 20kW of juice on even the hottest day (thats like $2 bucks). $4,500 dollars saved.

Ok, I commented because I really just wanted to tell my story. But it is a good one…maybe it will save someone else a buck or two. If you get a estimate on a A/C unit, whatever number you get told, take at least a ton off, hehe.

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mikeinatl. Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am

This is all starting to feel a bit like The Space Race or the Manhattan Project.

Big players. Huge money being invested. Leading-edge technology. Outcome could redefine how we all live. Who will get there first?

This is all very good for EV in general. I hope GM prevails, but all this competition is GREAT for consumers and for getting to energy independence.

Fast-forward 5 years. Imagine the choices we will all have!

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KUD Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Here is my take

Currently I have a 20 mile round trip commute and the Wife has a 44 mile round trip. So the Nissan would work, but it also means 3 cars since I need one with more range. My choice is 2 Volts. Wife drives 1 till the gas is gone at 4 miles a day that will take a while. Then we swap cars and she drives till the gas on number 2 is gone. No worries about gas going bad and the gas mileage would be incredible. Vacations (here I need the range) which ever one is full at the time.

GO VOLT GO

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:44 am

#36 Jim I

“They “PLAN” to spend on battery manufacturing facilities over the next three years.” You all make it sound like the battery packs are already in a wharehouse ready for installation. Unless you have pictures of the bulldozers clearing ground for the plant, it is just a statement.”

This is gold. I don’t think it really goes back to your intention of the post about double standard for GM, as they seem to be the masters of talking, but this is pretty much how I think 98% of the time on more than just EVs…about life in general.

Show me the bulldozers! Is it ok I use that later?

This why I always give the i-Miev project the respect it deserves. It is not my first choice of EVs…if I could choose any, lol. But they are the ’stone cold nuts’ of the EV world (poker expression). They have underpromised/overdelivered. They have gone from late 2010 rollout to 2009 and then increased initial production five fold.

Mitsu is past concepts, prototypes, press conferences. They have a working fleet on the road, they are building batteries now,and they have ‘bulldozers’ on the ground right now putting up a new battery plant and on top of that they just increased the budget massively to quintuple battery capacity…so it’s hard to belive, but a 2nd plant is now in the works.

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Firefly Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:50 am

Carlos Ghosn obviously has absolutely no idea how big the United States is. While I think that 100 mpc is commendable, it in no way truly characterized the american public’s driving habits. Suffice it to say, even GM only has a broad idea. Yes, you may drive less than 40 miles per charge daily to work, but that’s not everybody. Plus, how many people will leave work on Friday and just decide to drive to Fort Lauderdale for the weekend? The range extender in the Volt is (to put it lightly) “amnesia insurance”. As long as you have a few gallons of gas/e85/combi. in it, the charge issue won’t be an issue. Ghosn’s EV would best serve Europe and Japan where the concentration of locales lends itself to short range drives.

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Van Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:01 am

Not only did Nissan say they had a BEV in the works, they also said they had a couple of Hybrids in the works. The Hybrid will complete with the Volt. Earlier this year they said they had a battery (L3-10) that had an energy density equal to the Volt (100 to 120 Wh/kg) but also that they were working on a battery with double or triple (I cannot remember) that energy density.

GM is not toast, but the investment in battery production facilities by Nissan tells us someone has margarine on the table.

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KUD Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:04 am

Carlos Ghosn obviously has absolutely no idea how big the United States is. While I think that 100 mpc is commendable, it in no way truly characterized the american public’s driving habits.

This reminds me of Studebaker importing the first Mercedes to the US in the fifties. MB said you can have AC or Sunroof but not both. Studebaker invited the MB principles and then took them through Death Valley in a black MB with Sunroof. I think we know how the story ended .

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Jackson Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:07 am

I’ve seen maybe 5 – 6 “smart” cars so far, in a large metropolitan area (admittedly, I don’t get ‘downtown’ much). This doesn’t count the 1 – 2 that I saw with “for sale” signs, when gas hadn’t topped $3.50 yet .

It’s apples and oranges, unless you think of the “smart” and short-range electric-only cars as ‘targeted use’ vehicles for people who can afford to buy and insure more than 1 car per family member.

The first electric car I actually saw was a short-range GEM car with a special “Low Speed Vehicle” tag. I haven’t seen it lately. Watching it scoot rapidly from it’s parking place at Costco introduced me to the idea of maximum torque at every speed, though. I didn’t ask, but I bet that wasn’t the only car the man owned.

The Volt, with it’s range extender, is the electric car to buy when (like most people), one per driver is all you can keep up. But here, the equation starts to get fuzzy: Is the Volt more expensive than having an older gas car and a special-use BEV? If so, GM may be awhile answering the needs of most Americans.

But Dale Earnhardt Jr. really likes the V8 in the new Camaro.

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Van Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:13 am

Sorry but in post 56 indicated a value for increased energy density, but in rereading the article, no figure was specified, just a larger cell with more capacity.

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Tagamet Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am

JimI@36 then Statik,
As always there are at least two camps here.”ours” and Statik’s. Just the Yin/Yang thing. Neither camp will change until their Volt is in the driveway.
I still feel like “half-full” beats “What glass?” anyday.
Be well,
Tag

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Len Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:16 am

I drive about 80 miles round trip each day and could most likely arrange for some charging at work. This thing could work for me. It all depends on price. At about $25k it would be a winner. $30k would probably sell all they had but it wouldn’t feel like such a deal.

The A123 cells with their nano structure cathode have very similar characteristics to the AESC battery – No thermal runaway, fast charge and discharge, nearly indestructable. I believe the Hymotion Prius extender packs are made with A123 cells.

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Kent Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am

I haven’t read through all the threads yet, so I apologize if someone else has already posted this. California’s largest utility is testing Mitsubishi’s i-MiEV.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_10124664

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:28 am

I confess I don’t understand the hesitation with a 100 mile range EV. I’m thinking it is just a product of the topic being on this particular site. It’s reality flies in the face of future viability of the Volt in mass quantities after the initial ‘EV excitement’ has died off and there is choice on the EV market.

I guess if your a midwest American, who lives alone, way out in the ‘boondocks’ you might have a issue. A EV is NOT for you, the Volt is, lol.

But most people with a $45,000 car have at least 1 or 2 more. I don’t see how it is a issue to have a 100 mile range car for going to work, the mall, restaurants, etc. (95 percent of your life), and then having another car for longer trips as well.

A second car is a not big cost drain if your first is a $45K hybrid EV. You can get a nice, couple year old mid size for high single digits…you’d hardly be putting any miles on it…so it would last virtually forever.

Besides the fact a second car is cheap…and using myself as a example, I will always WANT two cars.

There is only three people in my family (me, the wife and son), but I can’t, or I am not willing, to try and make one car do everything for us. It is just way too impractical. If money were a issue, and I could only have one car…it sure as heck wouldn’t be a EV of any form…it would probably be a 2 year old Cobalt (with low mileage) for $5K.

And I can’t imagine a situation where I would need TWO cars going over 100 miles at the same time. I’ve been married ten years and I can’t think of one single situation where this has happened to us. If there was such a situation, I can still rent a car for $29 bucks at Discount.

I think 100 mile range pure EV, would be ‘logistically’ ideal (but not financially ideal) for probably 90% of the general car buying population.

Stripping out the cost factor, ie) if you could get a 100 mile pure EV to market for $12,000 (in unlimited capacity), I think you’d have massive widespread adoption instantly in the auto sement. Very, very few households that buy new cars would not own one because of the range.

/just my opinion

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NV Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:38 am

I’d buy a 100 Mile pure EV in a heartbeat (over a 40 mile volt – with extender). This would be a very practicle car for a lot of people.

My daily office commute is no more than 25 Miles (usually 10). I don’t remember a day in the last 10 years I put in more than 100 miles without some planning – though I regularly do over 40 miles per day.

Like me, most Americans have a couple of cars. I can replace one with this vehicle and use the other (or a rental) for longer drives.

Even if this EV is practicle for 50% of population – thats a huge win for everyone.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:42 am

#56 van

“Not only did Nissan say they had a BEV in the works, they also said they had a couple of Hybrids in the works”

See my post @ #43

#62 Kent

“I haven’t read through all the threads yet, so I apologize if someone else has already posted this. California’s largest utility is testing Mitsubishi’s i-MiEV”

Sounds like it is similar to the Japanese program, which means they will get 4-5 cars and a ‘Mitsu employee’ to monitor the cars. Backs up the timeline of the i-Miev hitting US shores in late 2011, they started seriously fleet testing them in Japan in 2006.

Honestly, I think it is a bit of a stall job, but trying to keep the excitement up.

Mitsu probably figures they need to bump the range up over 100 miles for NA adoption (and the fact they can sell every i-Miev they build in their home backyard for a few years), which of course would require a larger battery pack, which won’t be build until the release the ‘luxury/sport’ version a couple years after the basic i-Miev rollout.

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Jackson Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:44 am

Statik (#63):

Your point is a good one, though if two people have long commutes (in opposite directions, like my wife and I), that 1 ICE/1 BEV model might not be as good. I admit that an old gas hog and BEV would probably work for a great many families.

As with the Volt, the iMiev’s price will tell. If they were only 12K and had A/C (sorry, I live in the Deep South), I might get two and keep the wife’s convertible for trips (and if wishes were fishes, I’d only buy chips) .

The iMiev (and other BEVs and hyrbrids) are just more puzzle-pieces to sort out. It’s not just going to be interesting five years from now, most car buyers will find it much more confusing.

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DaV8or Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:52 am

Jim I #36-

“What’s with all the negative vibes here man????”

I totally agree! Japanese manufacturers always get a pass. I think a lot of people really like the Volt concept, but are bitter that GM is building it and not Honda or Toyota. GM gives all kinds of info on the development, but the others give us nothing. Sometimes the info from GM can be discouraging, so when any other manufacturer makes some vague promise, they cling to that hope like a life preserver in hopes that they will be saved from having to buy an EV from GM.

I think people are all fired up because the Nissan test mule looks like a Scion Xb, so they think it should be priced like an Xb. Imagine their surprise when they announce it’s $50k for 100 mile range! Still, the Japanese government is known to provide subsidies to native industries so as to capture the market with low cost products. It’s not really legal or fair, but they have done so without any real resistance in the past. So it could end up that Nissan might be able to sell a car that would cost $50k in a fair market for only $25k. We can’t do the same to them because their market is closed to us.

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Tim G. Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:55 am

Here is food for thought.

If we could eliminate the $700 billion we spend annually on foriegn oil for 12 years we would have saved $8.4 Trillion dollars. (per T. Boone Pickens)

That is enough money to replace 240 million american cars at $35,000 each. If we went to the Volt we could possibly eliminate some of our domestic oil as well.

Imagine what kind of stimulus it would be to our economy to build and replace 240 Million cars. And it could all be financed with deferred middle east oil revenues.

As well we could begin to bridge this major changeover by many means. For instance starting a massive retrofit program of existing U.S. cars with hybrid or electric technology, financed by monthly fuel savings.

This would put net after tax savings in the pockets of all americans, create a financing vehicle for decimated financial institutions, after the sub-prime fraud and create an ongoing stimulus package, financed again by foriegn oil.

Both candidates proposals are woefully inadequate given the magnitude of the problem, but Barrack’s is a larger step in the right direction.

Tim

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:04 am

#68 TIm

Uh oh, you mentioned a presidential candidate. Do we really want to go there?

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chevonly Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:15 am

I hope GM has designed in easy access to the battery pack, upgrades and exchanges would add to the appeal of the vehicle. Lets face it the cat is out of the bag when it comes to electric car development and it is going to turn into a flood of competition soon. Advancements in the technology may explode on the scene. The high performance electric from the UK can be charged up in ten minutes? Not only battery technology but also companies like EE stor. I can see many aftermarket shops opening up selling ad ons and improved battery paks for the more popular electrics that will be on the market. But GM cannot afford any more red ink they have to get some profit from the Volt or at least break even the first one to two years of production, and yes it would be nice if the damned government could do what the foreign governments do all the time, at the minimum incentives for GM or the customers that buy something made in America for a change, even though it may be already to late.

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Morgan Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:17 am

My thoughts:

A 100 Mile AER does not save our Suburban or Exurban culture.

The Volt does.

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James Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am

I like an all elect with a 100mi range especially if it reduces the cost. i have a 07 Yukon that I plan on keeping for vacations and hauling. Where can I get one?

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DonC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:32 am

###### Statik

A few points:

1. The range: I think this one is huge. Personally I have no concern about a 100 mile range. However, it’s empirically true that people assign astronomically high values to very small but NEW risks. (See terror attacks versus heart disease or auto accidents). A BEV is a new beast and running out of charge and being stranded is a new risk — ergo, it’s a huge deal in that people will assign it a risk grossly disproportionate with the reality. To me this is a major advantage for the Volt and why I think it’s the only (sort of) BEV that has the potential to sell in quantity in NA.

2. What is the range?: This is hard to say because it depends a great deal on how you drive the car. The Tesla supposedly has a 200 mile range but, given that drag goes up with the cube of your speed, if you start driving at 100 mph you’re probably lucky to go 80 miles (that’s a SWAG I haven’t run the numbers). For many folks in NA a 100 mile range is probably more like 65 or 70 miles. (For my mostly low speed trips it’s probably more like 120 miles)

3. Bringing battery production in-house: I know you think it’s a good idea but I think it’s a very bad idea. The technology is moving too quickly and if you make a big bet this early you may end up with too much stranded investment. Just at the moment we have an number of possible alternatives that would obsolete existing batteries. Let’s look at what we have on the table as opposed to the basic li-ion with graphic anode and LiCoO2 cathode::

Basic li-ion battery – 160Wh/kg, 270Wh/l
EESU (as claimed) – 340Wh/kg, 1600Wh/l
Silicon nanowire (anode only) – 480Wh/kg, 810Wh/l
Vanadium cobalt oxide anode – 441 Wh/kg, 745 Wh/l

If any of these alternatives — and these are just the ones I know about — work out, we’re talking EV ranges along the lines of a ICE car, and of course a lot of obsolete battery technology.

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Dave B Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:32 am

NV @ 64: you wrote

“I’d buy a 100 Mile pure EV in a heartbeat (over a 40 mile volt – with extender). This would be a very practicle car for a lot of people.

….

Even if this EV is practicle for 50% of population – thats a huge win for everyone.”

I agree completely. Any company that cranks out the first EV with these specs at a price of under $30K will make a fortune. Now IMO depending on how much they exceed that amount will make or break EVs for the masses. I guess that will be the real issue–how much these things cost.

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Tim Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:36 am

#71 (morgan)

Speaking of our Suburban or Exurban culture…

A 100 mile range electric car would kill sprawl and bring back the small town culture that once made America great. Employers would go where the labor force is instead of forcing the labor to commute to them. It would reduce congestion simply because fewer people would be commuting 1-2 hours (each way) to work. THAT kind of commute is common and just plain stupid. It only serves to reduce the costs to giant corporations through consolidation while it transfers those costs onto their employees and wastes precious limited natural resources!

Electric cars + distributed energy = shorter commutes = local employment & less wealth transfer = stronger communities = stronger Americans = stronger America.

Let the cost of gas increase because it will ultimately strengthen America because there is ALWAYS an alternative.

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Aspherical Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:37 am

An EV without a range extender is not for me. Since I live in the foothills of the Rockies, I would imagine the hills drastically cutting into that 100 mile range for one charge. I would be looking at the battery level every 30 seconds or so once I hit those hills. If I would to buy a car for driving to work ONLY, I would just buy a motorcycle or a beater…. Oooohhh… I wonder if high power density electric motorcycles will be coming out soon…

Edit: I want this one.

http://www.killacycle.com/

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Jeff Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:46 am

The most attractive thing about a pure BEV is the vastly reduced maintenance footprint – GM found that out about the EV1. Periodic maintenance was rotating the wheels and changing the wiper blades.

It’s a real forehead thumper to realize how much stuff that requires maintenance we’ve got hung on our ICEngines – why have we been putting up with it for so long? Judging by the common assumption that people will pay a lot extra for vehicles with the range to do the twice a year family trip to be able to fast break to the hills when the revolution comes imay not be as obvious as it seems – money doesn’t talk, it swears:-).

I’m not ruling the Nissan’s BEV strategy out – only their ability to sustain the high revenue maintenance business that GM still wants.

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Anthony BC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Oooo, cute little mini-bus! This will probably sell in NA (especially if priced @ 30K or so) for those who can get to where they need to go within the range(or put a $500.00 generator in the trunk), but others will still need the VOLT with range extender.

This electric car reVOLTion thingy is really starting to HEAT UP!

GO GM, GO VOLT for 2010!

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Cautious Fan Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:59 am

#73 Don C

I wish I could put my name on your post. You’ve made solid points insightful points. A small corrections. Drag goes up with the square of velocity, not cubed. That doesn’t affect your conclusions though.

I also wanted to add something on your risk explanation. Like you said, I think NEW vs OLD risks have a big play. But also whether they are in our CONTROL. I don’t worry about a heart attack because I can take aspirin, get a heart transplant, etc. I personally can’t really control if a terrorist kills me so it worries me more. In an EV, if I get stuck in traffic with the AC on, I could run that battery down really quickly. Or if there’s an emergency and I need to run and pick up my kid and the car isn’t charged yet. There’s too many scenarios beyond our control. And with NEW risk, we don’t know how often these scenarios will occur, severity, etc. I actually think the public is fairly logical is this respect.

Ditto on the GM’s battery strategy. I think it’s a mistake to bring it in house due to the rapid changes but….time will tell.

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Schmeltz Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

#63 Statik:
I agree with much of what you said in terms of the practicality of a 100 mile range EV. However, range anxiety is a very difficult thing to get over, (I include myself as range anxiety sufferer). I think Shai Agassi of Project Better Place said it pretty right on the mark. To paraphrase, most people want more than that 100 mile range, and ability to seat 5 people for that extremely rare, random happening of driving along one day, seeing 4 of your college buddies, and going on this totally spontaneous road trip somewhere. If you have never heard of him, I encourage you to search “Shai Agassi” and/or “Project Better Place” for a very thought provoking proposal for EV infrastructure. I would like to hear your opinions on his ideas.

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Morgan Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

75 Tim:

I understand that and I have some arguments against that happening but instead lets apply Occam’s razor to the equation.

Which is the simplest?

Changing an entire method of socialization, housing, and planning. Employer’s building or retrofitting new production facilities and offices because of a 100 mile car

or

The Volt which will preserve that system while incrementally increasing the AER as technology advances to the point where these massive changes will never have to take place.

I think the second is more likely but I would love for the first to take place. The COL where I live is peanuts compared to the coast and I shake my head constantly when I hear of manufacturing or other companies locating in the coast locales.

Right now, where I live, you could locate a turn key solar panel manufacturing facility of 50,000 sq. feet and your real estate costs would be less than 500k. Your labor force would run you in the $10-$12 an hour range and it would be a livable wage for your employees. Property Tax rates I don’t know about but a manufacturer who recently left paid none and was running around 800k a year for 4 200,000 sq. ft. production facilities.

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Mike Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

100 mile range is just fine. I drive my car to work, then I park it. Don’t even drive it on the weekends. I tug my family around in the mini van when not driving my commuter car. This would be so perfect. Dear big oil, it was nice to know. But times are changing. Please don’t take it so badly. Bye Hugo Chavez and oil sheiks. hee hee im so giddy

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canehdian Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Just a question.. do you honestly drive 100 miles to do shopping/whatever?
If so you need to SERIOUSLY rethink your shopping habits, or at least where you live.
I don’t think I’ve ever been to a city or town in the states or canada which had more than 20km to get to any specific store. (With the vast majority being local, <10km). Now you’re saying you NEED to drive 100miles (160km)? That’s just ridiculous. Either you are driving much too far out of your way for nothing, or you live in the middle of nowhere.
If you live in the middle of nowhere, you should’ve known that you’d be getting longer commutes, and really, have no reason to complain about gas/long trips. If you want to reduce them, get a house closer to town.
Don’t even look at an EV until they have a range of 300+, if this is the case.

With 160 km, I could drive from Toronto to Niagara Falls/Buffalo.
That’s an insanely long trip, and I would pass every imaginable store along the way, with hundreds of duplicates.
OK, yes, 160km is round trip distance. Ok, So I could drive to hamilton and back and still have some range left for more local shopping.

I could drive to the mall (the one in the town next over, at that!) and back almost 12 times with that range.
I could drive to walmart, future shop (electronics), zellers (like walmart), shoe store, sports store, whatever all within 15km.
I can’t possibly imagine how you have to drive 80km one way to a store, unless you’re in the middle of the country. And as I said, you shouldn’t even be looking at an EV if that’s the case.
The Volt, sure. But don’t even say that “it’s not good enough” for the masses. Just because you live a ridiculously long way away from everything doesn’t mean 90% of the population does.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Good Lord, is this thing ugly. I don’t think anyone would WANT to spend more than few miles at a time in this thing, so range limitation is not a problem.

Volt has nothing to worry about, if it actually looks like a car.

Americans, IN MASS, simply won’t drive something that looks like that. In Japan, yes. Last time I was there, the narrow roads were full of tiny, narrow cars. Also a huge lack of parking space and nearly nobody has a garage at home. No room for one.

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DonC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

#79 Cautious Fan

Thanks very much for your kind words.

On the drag, my mistake. You’re right, drag goes up with the square of velocity. The point I was trying to make, not very clearly, is that the battery “drain” goes up with the cube of the speed.

To clear things up, the power the motor needs to generate to overcome the force of drag equals the Force_Drag X Velocity. Since as you point out drag equals the drag coefficient times the area times the square of the velocity [Cd * A * V2], drag goes up with the square of the velocity while the power drawn from the battery goes up with the cube of the velocity (Force_Drag = [Cd * A * V2] * V = Cd * A * V3.)

Thanks for “forcing” me to be more accurate!

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#DA Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Volt fighter? AHHAHAHA!!!

Looks like a postal delivery truck!

What a joke.

Volt 1, Nissan 0.

–
#DA

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GXT Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Everyone who is arguing that 100 miles electric is not sufficient range is also arguing against the Volt.

If you need to go that far then you are going to be mostly driving on the range extender, in which case the Volt’s electric range has a much smaller impact.

This just re-inforces that the Volt doesn’t make sense for most people.

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Aspherical Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

#83

It has nothing to do with shopping. It really depends on where you live. For example, I live in the Denver area and I go to Fort Collins, Colorado Springs, or somewhere in the mountains for a variety of reasons during the weekends (not shopping). A 100-mile range car will not work for me in this case and consider the fact that the hills may effectively reduce that range. This car will not work for me.

Now if you live in the city and close suburbs and you never leave that area for the weekends, this car is perfect. Just not for me…

#87 GXT

I disagree. My commuting to work will be electric only. My weekend drives will be mostly powered by electric then a little bit of gas on the drive back home. All in ONE car.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Regarding that 100-mile range, I suppose it would make a difference if braking recovered/recharged the battery.

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mitch Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

#68 Tim G

Great idea..instead of sending money out, use incentives and convert.. Truly I love it.

On the subject of range..if 100 is good, and a 100 mile hard limit is ok, actually try it..Set the tripometer to 0 and never go past 100 before refilling..or refill it everyday at the end of the day..this is life with a 100 mile limit.

Now, do the same for 40 miles, but allow another 310 in case you forget to recharge at night, or detour around construction or an accident or road closure, and try to refill regularly before 40, but not worry until it reaches 350…life with a volt.

Heaven help you if you need AAA or CAA because you detoured, got stuck in traffic and left the A/C on, and the Battery dies..”hello AAA/CAA? can youtow me home or…. send a truck, generator, witha special plug and leave it here for a few hours,”(good pollution reduction on htose tow trucks eh..

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Schmeltz Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

GXT #87 said:

“This just re-inforces that the Volt doesn’t make sense for most people.”

Actually, I think the opposite in that the Volt does make sense for most people. It takes range, as well as downtime for charging of the batteries out of the equation. An All electric EV is done when the range is depleted, and you have to wait a few hours minimum to get sufficient charge again to finish your trip. And that is all IF you are near a means to be charged. I don’t think many here argue that the 100 mile trip is a rarity, but figuring how poop happens sometimes, whether you plan for it or not, a 100 mile “emergency” could arise, and the EV without a range extender would be helpless. Being a pragmatist, I need a practical solution for this issue. The Volt addresses this with a Range Extender.

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Spin Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

I love the fact that we will have many choices in the next couple of years. I do think that some people that think they need a range extender could probably use this vehicle if they were willing to do a little planning……

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nasaman Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

ATTN GM….. Emotionally, I’m still in shock that you inflated the Volt’s selling price to $45,000 and its battery cost to &15,000 in the CNBC special last night (8/6/08). OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Rationally, I’m aware that you’re 1) preparing the car-buying public and the US Congress to consider $5,000-7,000 rebate checks very reasonable (if not almost mandatory), 2) customers to be extremely pleased/surprised when the Volt’s actual retail is $35,000 or less, and, most important, 3) close to concluding joint-venture negotiations with one of the Volt’s battery suppliers to design & build a highly-automated battery factory to reduce the projected $15,000 battery cost to under $5,000 (consequently, the Volt’s retail to under $35,000)!*

*PS to Rick Wagoner & Bob Lutz: If you’re NOT taking action similar to my #3 above to get most hand-assembly labor content out of the battery fabrication, you both deserve to be fired!!! Am I clear???

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DonC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

New JD Power ratings came out. In order: Lexus, Mercury, Cadillac, Toyota, Honda, Acura, Buick. Not a bad showing for GM and Ford. Buick fell but the cars with problems have been discontinued.

On another off-topic tidbit: It seems as if the Malaki government is going to insist on a deal that has all US combat troops out of Iraq by October 2010. Hmmmmm……. that date sounds familiar. Let me think, where could that date have come from? Oh, apparently by total coincidence, this is more or less the exit date Obama has been talking about. Apparently that trip to Iraq paid off.

I can’t remember the last time a presidential *candidate* negotiated a deal like this. Ronald Reagan caused the Iranians to cut a deal with Carter but that was after he was elected. In any event, it seems like the end is in sight. Can’t come too soon for me but from talking to people in the military it’s going to take that long just to clean up the equipment before shipping it home.

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DonC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

#94 nasaman

Hopefully they’re just throwing numbers out at this point but the $45,000 figure has been out there since March.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/mar2008/db20080321_805508_page_2.htm

I’m sure they’re aware that at $45,000 they’re not going to have a home run on their hands. Then again that seems to be the primary reason GM hasn’t been selling many hybrids — the premium they’re charging over the straight ICE designs is simply taking them out of the game.

I mentioned this before, but the question being posed is whether a Volt is equal in value to two Priuses, which is not a nice way to look at the question if you’re GM. Maybe they’re thinking the Volt will be an upscale model rather than the more basic transportation model the concept represented:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/1-volt-or-2-priuses/?scp=1&sq=chevy%20volt&st=cse

The battery production line has to be a delicate problem. The battery guys want at the very least a commitment on numbers but GM may not want to commit to a technology. There’s a lot of new stuff brewing.

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noel park Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

$12 BILLION??? Oh, oh, these guys are getting serious.

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Schmeltz Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Nasaman #94:
You sound hopping mad! If you have contacts at GM, it might be good to (cool down first), but then discuss the price issue with them in depth. It can’t be stressed enough that a Volt anywhere North of $35,000 will sink like a rock in the marketplace. I don’t know how frequently GM brass check this site, but they need to be informed that rumors of $45 grand Volts could kill it before it even gets going. Good luck.

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Robert Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Hello Nissan!

Goodbye Volt!

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James Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Could GM put the range extender as an option? If they could take 5k to 10k off the price it will be worth it. 40mi per charge is more than adequate for me. I am just calculating the money that I would save by NOT buying gas.

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Casadore Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

It’s interesting how quickly people move away from The Volt. Not requiring good looks,longer total range. They seem all to quick to move away from American to anything else.This lack of patroitism sadens me and many others.

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James Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

I wouldn’t throw patriotism into this. How long will GM build in the US? The 2010 Prius will be built in Tennessee. Where will Nissan build? They have a plant in the South right?

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Frank D Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Now it’s 45,000.00? That just broke the bank. The number of choices in 2010 will be many, besides the volt sorry to say. Retrofitting my Ford Focus to electric will not only benefit me, but will benefit smaller businesses in my community. Take the idea of patriotism out of the equation. These large corporations are GLOBAL. They do not play the patriotism game like the public seems to do concerning a car??? They only play it when it means getting special loans from our government that we end up funding!

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Jim I Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Statik #54:

“Show Me The Bulldozers!” is free for you to use…..

My double standards coment was not aimed toward the manufacturers. Of course they are going to try to spin everything they say, to try to make the best of any bad situation.

My comment was targeted to the members of this site. For some people, no matter what GM does, it is always wrong, or not good enough. As soon as Toyota, Honda, or Nissan makes a publicity announcement, there is a chrous of “That is it – GM is done!!!”

For me, borrowing a line from the movie Apollo 13, my feeling is “This will be our finest hour………….”

nasaman:

Until I see a sticker price on the window of an electric car at my local dealership, I would say to ignore everything related to pricing, on ANY BEV or PHEV. Because I don’t really think they will have an exact price until just before assembly starts!

GO GM – GO GM VOLT TEAM!

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Sam Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

ARRRGGG!!!

GM, when are you gonna give the reporters a test drive in the VOLT or at least the mule? Nissan has already done so, and getting more all-important publicity points than you. Plus, they are going to build a WHOPPING number of batteries IN-HOUSE. Now, I know that you have ALREADY chosen a battery supplier but you just have not made it public, contrary to some comments I read. However, after you stop bleeding money and start getting some green again, I really hope that you will bring the battery In-House within next 7 or 8 years. You used to be the pioneer, but have lapsed to the point where your competitors can build themselves, according to Statik, better batteries than what you get from suppliers and cannot build yourselves.

I really hope that you watch your cost for the VOLT though Bob Lutz stated it will be around $40,000 US. Seriously though, if the VOLT is more expensive than the Nissan vehicle by $7,000 or more, you will lose a LOT of potential customers.

A FEW POSITIVE THINGS FOR GM THOUGH:
They have got the RANGE EXTENDER. It not only extends the range (quite important), but gives EXTRA POWER for people like me who like to drive a little more aggressive than your ‘driving miss & mr daisies.’ If that Nissan one is cheaper but have poor power, then I won’t even bother looking at it unless the price difference is greater than $7000.

Though I’m an adamant VOLT fan, when I get the final concrete COSTs for both vehicles, their POWER OUTPUT, their AER (All-Electric-Range), their TOTAL RANGE, their WARRANTY, etc., I’ll have to think long and hard and perhaps buy Nissan or some other Japanese made EV if the VOLT is not realistic (i.e. too expensive for the said numbers). If VOLT is unrealistic, then I guess the BIG 3 are screwed as the new EV markets will be dominated by the Japanese.

Come on VOLT!! I haven’t given upon you yet!!! ^^

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john1701a Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

>> ATTN GM….. Emotionally, I’m still in shock that you inflated the Volt’s selling price to $45,000 and its battery cost to &15,000 in the CNBC special last night (8/6/08). OUTRAGEOUS!!!

We saw that coming. But since Volt is an investment in the future, not a short-term (financial recovery over the next 3 years) solution, it shouldn’t matter anyway.

The “Saving General Motors” will come from what they do in the meantime. So plans, whether from GM or Nissan, aren’t as important. It’s what they do now that should be given much more weight. After all, we’ve seen quite a few promises broken over the years.

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Joe Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

A battery operated car w/o a range extender is not a good idea for both the owners and the car manufacturers. I can see drivers forgetting to charge the battery properly and getting stuck on the road, blaming the car manufacturers.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

#90 mitch says “On the subject of range..if 100 is good, and a 100 mile hard limit is ok, actually try it..”

That is what is happening with Chrysler’s GEM cars, except they have only 30 miles. Many people are actually trying them. A lot of people like these litttle cars and are using them every day.

Of course, they are not suitable for everyone, nor would they be at 100 miles. But there are many, many people who need only go 15 miles a day, not 100 and not more than that.

Also, the fact that people have a GEM car does not mean that they do not have any other car. Most do. The one BEV does not have to fulfill all goals.

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Plug Free Volt Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Some “Plug Free Volt” guy keeps trying to propagate the idea behind a Volt equipped with a smaller battery (for cost reduction) that still gets great fuel economy (50 mpg).

Crazy nut…

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mitch Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Need clarification !!!

Has GM said the selling price for the VOLT will be $45,000? or did they say the volt costs $45,000?

THere is a huge difference in those 2 statements. UNtil economies of scale kick in, the cost to produce may be higher than selling price, and GM may lose a few $ to get into the market (like the Prius..T lost money on all the 1st year ones)

Cost of the car, and selling price are 2 entirely differnt things.

Can anyone clarify if they stated selling price is $45,000?

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mitch Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

#108 RB

I Think you misunderstood. I know people are doing it, I am asking people that are considering AEV with 100 mile limit to mimic it with their gas car, and even then it is not a fair comparison… refill is faster than a charge, idle time with the A/C or heat will draw power, etc..

Just saying if you think it suits your life..actually try it!

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Dave B Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Nasaman (aka Phil) @ 94, you wrote, ”

3) close to concluding joint-venture negotiations with one of the Volt’s battery suppliers to design & build a highly-automated battery factory to reduce the projected $15,000 battery cost to under $5,000 (consequently, the Volt’s retail to under $35,000)!*

*PS to Rick Wagoner & Bob Lutz: If you’re NOT taking action similar to my #3 above to get most hand-assembly labor content out of the battery fabrication, you both deserve to be fired!!! Am I clear???”

Absolutely correct about automation–as much as I like that once supplied much American labor, their back is broken and must innovate to survive. And I hope you are correct that the battery cost reduction will be 300%. Glad to see that $45K figure lit a little fire.

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Sam Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Just to tell you straight up front, I’m an Korean Canadian. Having spent half of my life growing up in Korea, I find it DOWNRIGHT NAIVE and SILLY when I read some comments that it won’t matter since Toyota, Nissan or some other Asian automakers already have or will have plants in NA and that we should leave patrioitism out of it. Now, I’m not an American, but I can certainly understand from a North American’s point of view (I grew up in NA since I was 12 yrs old).

Just to let you know how Asians think, whenever an ASIAN (Japanese or Korean) automobile company gains ground in NA, they cheer, glad that one of THEIR companies is doing so well, unlike us North Americans who say okay so GM or Ford got richer but that has nothing to do with me. Ultimately, even if the cars are being built in NA, the parent company is in Japan or Korea, an average ASIAN will think we are getting MORE MONEY FROM YOU while you are LOSING MONEY. Even if the said Asian doesn’t work for the automobile company, he/she’ll think that THEIR ECONOMY as a WHOLE will be better and they’ll benefit from that on personal levels. And it’s true.

As far as patritism is concerned, they would be extremely happy since such a major company like Honda, Hyundai, etc. represents the whole country internationally. Whenever Koreans see Samsung, LG, Hyundai do very well, you can be sure that they will all be happy. Same with Japanese for their brands like Sony, JVC, Mitsubishi, etc.

What us North Americans have to screw into our heads, though it may seem weird, is that other countries are waging ECONOMIC WARS through their brands INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY. While we think about free market forces and decide on a foreign product since we think they are better, cooler, or more luxurious, a patriotic average Asian will likely buy (a generalization to be sure, but still holds to a great degree) their own brand if the quality is the same and the price is cheaper. Even if the price is about the same, and quality differs slightly, they’ll think about consequences about exporting their money to foreign companies. So a great number of them will choose to buy domestic brand, to make sure their money is not going out of their own country.

Patritism MATTERS, people!! Not all the cars assembled in NA are equal. It all depends where the profit of the automobile company will go. You can be sure 100%, foreign companies’ pockets lined with profits made from North Americans buying their goods will benefit their own home country’s economy FIRST AND FOREMOST, and NOT us in NA.

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Jackson Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

I believe the quote was close to “[the Volt] will, at the latest estimate, cost $45,000…” …which also dropped my jaw. I sure hope that doesn’t stick. They also made the battery goals seem very “iffy.”

It didn’t help that Volt segment followed long after a lengthy piece about that V8 Pony Car, the new Camaro, which looked like it might’ve been filmed in the ’60s or ’70s (famous race car driver, performance performance performance, video of fast oval turns, discussions over styling, etc). It made me think that GM has not, in fact, found it’s way in the modern world, yet; and is probably doomed. “Race on Sunday sell on Monday” hasn’t been the rule for decades, but it’s obviously how a lot of the executives still think.

After that show, I wanted GM to round up all of their in-house “car people” who think muscle cars are still relevent, and have them fired.

However; at lunch, I stopped by a newstand, and found that the new Camaro is on several automotive mag covers. There must be a bright (dare I say “lemon”) yellow concept Camaro out there, it was freatured on at least two covers. Maybe enough car buyers are deluded about the post-peak oil age to keep that project from being a total waste, after all.

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DG Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Damn that thing is ugly & no range extender?….but competition is always good for the customer. Well see about 2010 as well.

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Aspherical Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

#113 Sam

Yes, I agree.

Buy the Volt to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and because it is made of good “American” steel!!!!

(Shoves crayon farther in brain through nose)

USA! USA!

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JonP Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Statik,

“Honestly, I have zero loyalty to GM. If Ford, Chrysler or Toyota (the HORROR) would have had the Volt or been ‘first out’ of the major autos, I would be over there right now. And to this day, I retain my ‘non-loyalty,’ I’m going to own a electric car, and it is going to be the first one out that I can buy (and have serviced locally).

I’m going to be the first in my city, on my block with one. When there is a waiting list for any of them, I am there and my money is down, even if that means I end up owning two EVs.
”

I couldn’t agree with that statement more. Same reason i bought an iphone the week after it came out.
Also i totaly agree with your 100 mile ev rational. If i can buy a miev for under 20K, or any other BEV for under 20K. I’ll be all over it!!!!

I’ll rent a minivan if i want to take my family/friends on a 350 mile trip. You know how many of those trips i could go on with an extra 20K in my pocket!!!!

I look forward to the day when you can choose between all electric, range extended, gas/electric hybrid, different choices for my range extender, etc…..

Competition is great!

Ow ya nice disclaimer in the last thread

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noel park Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

If Nissan is spending $12 BILLION on a battery plant, maybe GM should buy batteries from them. I was going to follow up with LOL, but maybe it’s not so funny after all.

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storm Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

I drive an electric car daily. It has a range of 35-40 miles. It is not a problem. It does require a little attention, but so should any driving with gas at $5/gallon. If I need to go further, I take my wife’s Honda. I can dream of 100 mile range, but I don’t need it. Most of my driving is gasoline free. See my EV at http://www.evalbum.com/1059 .

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noel park Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

#113 Sam:

Amen brother. Preach on!

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noel park Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

#119 storm:

GOOD MAN!

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

#74 DonC

We may not agree 100%. But I just wanted to say I really appreciate your posting. It is very concise, you can tell you took some time on it.

I like the battery tables as well, I may ‘linerate’ some of those numbers in another thread, lol. (A little early adding in the EESU maybe, hehe).

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Jim I Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

The real point here is that everyone has different requirements, so therefore there will have to be different models to fit those needs.

Some could get by with 20 miles AER. Others need 50, or 100, or 200. Many have different needs different days of the week. That is my situation. For usually four, but sometimes only three days per week, 40 miles AER is more than enough. But those other days, I need to be able to travel between 110 & 150 miles (city, highway, hills, winter, summer). And I sure do not want to have to think about which car to take on any given day… So I either get something with a range extender, or a BEV that REALLY will get 200 miles with the heating or cooling systems running. But in my particular situation, I would feel much more comfortable having that range extender ready to go if needed.

But that is just me…………

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

#117 Jon P

“Ow ya nice disclaimer in the last thread”
–glad you seen it, I wasn’t sure, lol

Side note why is everyone so shocked/surprised at $45,000. I’ve been saying that (and getting flamed) for like…a year? Are some of you not taking my words as the gospel truth? Don’t you know I am always right? Just disagree with me on something…I will tell you about it.

/pats self on back

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

#119 Storm

“I drive an electric car daily. It has a range of 35-40 miles”
http://www.evalbum.com/1059

Conversion time: 9 months of not so steady work
Conversion Cost: $5,000
Top Speed: 70 mph
Range: 35 miles

Very nice.

But I’m afraid it’s not possible. Don’t you know it’s not possible for anyone but a large manufacturer to create a electric vechicle? Certainly not one man! Your link site must be destroyed.

/I kidd

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Jackson Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

nasaman, a hydrogen question popped up in the last thread, if you’re still here, would you please comment?

If you use high temperatures to thermally dissociate water into oxygen and hydrogen

~or~

If you use electrolysis to electrically seperate the elements from water

…what form does the oxygen take? Is it monatomic (one isolated oxygen atom), molecular (two oxygens in a molecule), Ozone (3 oxygens in a molecule), or some combination?

(Parenthetical definitions for the folks watching at home ).

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

#122 Statik (Me)

“I like the battery tables as well, I may ‘linerate’ some of those numbers in another thread, lol. (A little early adding in the EESU maybe, hehe).”

linerate = liberate

/sigh

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fred Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Did I recently read somewhere that nissan and chrysler are partnering? Then GM is in big trouble because with the japanese government and banks backing their car companies and holding our government hostage with our debt that we let them buy and chryslers distribution network the japanese can finally undercut GM with an inexpensive electric vehicle. Our wages have been kept low, our debt has been kept high by our own stupidity and mainly by greedy government policies. Now being offered a choice of a $45,000 or $24,000 electric vehicle which choice are you going to make? I know which one I’ll be forced to chose and be glad I did.

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Aspherical Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

#124 Statik

“Are some of you not taking my words as the gospel truth? Don’t you know I am always right? Just disagree with me on something…I will tell you about it.”

(sarcastic hat on)

Any disagreement with “The Statik” will be considered blasphemous and banishment from viewing this site. Your comments are only meant to compliment “The Statik.”

(sarcastic hat off)

Wait, did I just commit blasphemy?

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

I always seem to keep my mobile phone charged. I won’t have a problem remembering to charge my car. Those of you DUI might, but not me.

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maharguitar Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

OK, I’ve just spent the last couple of days reading everything I can find on Li-ion batteries. I learned why battery life is an issue and I learned why they have unusual charge/discharge characteristics. What I haven’t been able to find out is, Why are they so expensive? The materials in them aren’t scarce. They don’t seem to be much more physically complex to assemble compared to NiMH.

When GM says that the battery pack will cost $15,000, I have to believe them. I suspect that, if someone offered them a pack with the same performance for $5,000, they’d buy that one.

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Jim I Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

Jackson #126:

Oh a question where high school chemistry will finally be used!!! My teacher always told me this would happen some day…..

As I recall, oxygen molecules will always try to revert to it’s most stable state, which is O2. At any type of volume, ozone is unstable, and will break down pretty quickly.

So how did I do nasaman?????

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Joe Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

nasaman Says@94

“ATTN GM….. Emotionally, I’m still in shock that you inflated the Volt’s selling price to $45,000 and its battery cost to &15,000 in the CNBC special last night (8/6/08). OUTRAGEOUS!!!”

*******************************************************************

The show of last night was not recently filmed and I think that is why the price mention on the show was so high. I’ve come to that conclusion because Warren Kennedy, the assembly line worker in the show, took the 2008 early retirement incentive that GM gave at the beginning of July. My guess is the show was filmed months ago, at that the time when rumors were flying wild that the battery and Volt would cost that amount. Recently I read somewhere that the Volt projected total cost will be about $30,000 after the government rebate. If I find that article, I’ll pass it on.

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Aspherical Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

#131 maharguitar

There are several reasons why LG and Conti are selling the Li-ion battery packs for $15,000. For one the battery pack is filled with batteries and electronics with embedded software. The supplier owns that code. There is thermal management within the battery pack as well. So, the supplier will more than double the actual material cost to account for engineering and software development. If you got only one other competing supplier, they will only try to undercut you by $0.01 to get the business.

Now that the $15,000 number is out there… As a former Conti employee, I know that the $15,000-ish price tag is nothing new.

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canehdian Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

GXT #87

“This just re-inforces that the Volt doesn’t make sense for most people.”

There’s a difference between daily range and long range.
100 miles should be MUCH more than enough in one day for the masses.
The point of the volt is you can go farther for your vacation or whatever.
That’s not feasible with today’s battery tech.. your car would be 95% batteries and way 50,000lbs and cost $500,000. (totally made up numbers.)

In other words, its good for those who use less than 40 (by far), and even better for those same people that want the freedom to go 4000 miles.

126 jackson, 132 jim

Oxygen exists in equilibrium between O2 (preferred) and O3 (less stable) forms. As oxygen is released from the water, the single molecules will form bonds to each other in either pairs or triplets. The triplets (ozone) will either remain as is, or most likely break down into o2 by either joining with another ozone and forming 2 o2 molecules or by splitting to O2 + O, where the lone oxygen goes to find another O newly released from the water, or another ozone molecule.

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Nissan Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

+1

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nasaman Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:18 pm

118 noel park… You said, [ATTN Rick Wagoner & Bob Lutz] …..”If Nissan is spending $12 BILLION on a battery plant, maybe GM should buy batteries from them. I was going to follow up with LOL, but maybe it’s not so funny after all.”
=====================================================================
You’re absolutely right, Noel!

….although what you say is TRUE, it’s only funny in a sick, pathetic, twisted way that only a suicidal maniac or mass murderer could understand!

Yes, I’m hopping mad, GM! And if you’re NOT taking action to enter a joint-venture with one of the Volt’s battery suppliers to design & build a highly-automated battery factory that can reduce your announced $15,000 battery cost to under $5,000 (consequently, the Volt’s retail to under $35,000), you’re certain to be accused of AGAIN killing the electric car —and THIS time it will be an insane, reckless, unjustifiable 3rd-trimester ABORTION!!! MURDERERS!!!!!!!!

(GM, be glad I cooled off for a day following the CNBC special yesterday before posting these comments! I hope I was harsh enough!)

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nasaman Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

126 Jackson & 132 Jim I……”nasaman, a hydrogen question popped up in the last thread, if you’re still here, would you please comment?”
==================================================================
My career focus has been on physics & electronics, not chemistry, but I’m inclined to think your answer is close, Jim I. However, the matter is simply not worth anyone’s time to consider further. By the way, Sam Abuelsamid, a competent automotive engineer & writer at autobloggreen, recently addressed the larger question in a brief comment well worth reading at….

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/

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Big Picture Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

It’s still all about the batteries. It’s fascinating to watch this story unfold–one of the biggest automotive industry stories in my lifetime, IMHO. Big bucks, big egos, big competition, big winners, big losers, national issues, environmental issues, political issues, employment issues, technical issues, rapid change, uncertainty, discomfort, cool new products,–this story has it all!

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

#111 mitch — in relation to trying 100 miles using one’s present car

You’re right, I did misunderstand. Thanks for staying with me. I think you made a good suggestion.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

#110 mitch, about the price.

GM has never said what the MSRP would be. There has been a lot of speculation, fueled mainly by comments made by Bob Lutz at different times “well under $30K”, “about $40K”, “$50K to break even”, etc. No one knows what the actual prices will be, and I doubt if anyone at GM knows what the MSRP will be.

I know that a lot of people don’t want to believe the following, but it is true: For automotive, what the manufacturer sets is the volume to be made of a given model. Then the marketplace (dealer v customer) talk about the model and decide the price. It is not a fixed price and not the MSRP. If you are inclined to be a doubter, think about trucks, this year.

GM has decided that in the first year the volume will be only 10K. The corollary is that the price will be high — there are more than 10K well heeled people who will want one, if it works well and if it looks good.

So there is no point in getting anxious about the MSRP, whatever it turns out to be. What we want is for GM to increase the volume made by large numbers. That is what will bring down the price.

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stopcrazypp Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

#135 canehdian
Except this car can charge 80% in 15 minutes. Also the actual goal is more like 150 miles, though right now they are saying 100 miles to be safe. For longer road trips there are also external range extenders called Gen-sets.
I think success depends more on the price point. If it is $45k like the Volt, of course the Volt is better for most people. If it is $30k or $25k, then the comparison becomes a lot different. The Nissan will start to look a lot better. P.S. to the people saying it looks ugly, this is just a mule, the actual car will look completely different. More details on the car in the article below.

Lyle should update and post a link to this short test drive of the Nissan EV:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4276765.html?series=19

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noel park Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

#137 nasaman:

Yeah, but what do you really think? Patience can wear thin after all of these months.

Remember when Kirk Krekorian was trying to broker a cooperative agreement with Renault/Nissan? Naaaahhhh! Of course, if I were the “upper management” of GM, I wouldn’t exactly look forward to having to deal with Carlos Ghosn every day either. !@#$%^ guy could make you look bad.

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Apex Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Ghosn has previously said he felt 100 miles would be appropriate for the US market.

Then what would be appropriate ??

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Chops Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

#118 noel park, #137 nasaman

The $12 Billion USD should read 12 Billion Yen ($115 Million USD) that Nissan/NEC are planning to invest over the next 3 yrs. A much more reasonable number….

The exchange rate now is about 109.36 Yen/$ but it looks like 104 Yen/$ was used for the conversion.

I think the $ and yen have been mixed up in the original article or source.

My Source:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUKT36785520080519

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Ed M Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

Doesn’t sound like this car will challenge the Volt..
!00 miles per charge is great but no range extender ?

The Volt needs to look a little more buggy like with some fender differentiation and not so many sharp angles. The Volt roof line looks a little too squished as well. The best way to design an exterior is to start will one that everyone likes and improve on it, like what Chysler did with the PT Cruiser.

The documentary on Saving GM pretty much sums up my experience with GM autos. Bad paint, radiators, heaters, door handles, window rollers, seats, lifts for back door, carburetors, alternators, steering etc.
Bob Lutz mentioned how the metals must meet but there was a lot more wrong with GM products than that
RB #141
I hope those Bob Lutz Volt numbers don’t include putting huge GM losses by GM corporate bungling on the back of Volt sales.

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bruce g Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

I think the Nissan and Mitsi do challenge the thinking behind the Volt.
They do not compete head on, they provide a clear choice to buyers in 2010/2011.

They are going to be very interesting years. Highlights include a projected decline in global crude processing capacity (but only for a couple of years ) coinciding with the arrival of the electric cars.

Of course, the saudi may have 2 Mbpd extra capacity that they can extract to make up the projected deficit…or they may not..

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

#145 Chops

“The $12 Billion USD should read 12 Billion Yen ($115 Million USD) that Nissan/NEC are planning to invest over the next 3 yrs. A much more reasonable number….”

Well…now that is a big difference lol. I officially change my statment in post number 12 to reflect this development: “12 billion to BUILD THEIR OWN. Monster numbers, monster committment” to “120 million to build their own. Decent amount, shows they are committed”
.
.
.
.
.
#126 Jackson, and various follow-ups on the hydrogen question (more hydrogen talk…yippee!)

“If you use high temperatures to thermally dissociate water into oxygen and hydrogen……what form does the oxygen take? Is it monatomic (one isolated oxygen atom), molecular (two oxygens in a molecule), Ozone (3 oxygens in a molecule), or some combination?”

I’m a little rusty, and my I only remember bits and pieces from my youth (as it seems others are in the same amnesiactic (?) mode about this subject), maybe if we all answer a piece we can figure it out.

I think it will only take a monatomic form when heated to around 3000+ Kelvin. I’m not sure what application this could possibly be viable in…perhaps I need to go read the other thread, lol…as the amount of energy spent would be enormous.

/can never be enough hydrogen talk I always say

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DonC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

Here’s some more news about the i-MIEV coming to the states. Not encouraging. Twelve test cars in CA this fall for a three year test.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_10124664

A tidbit on pricing: “The vehicle goes on sale in Japan next summer, at around $25,000 to $30,000. Mitsubishi has not said whether it will sell the car in the United States, but if it does, it’s expected to cost more.”

Seems like electric cars, like most new technology, is going to be pricey for the early adopters.

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mien green Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

The paradigm is to own a urban commuter car and rent a car for trips.

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RB Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

#149 DonC said “Seems like electric cars, like most new technology, is going to be pricey for the early adopters.”

Yes, mainly because of scarce automotive batteries, which will keep initial supply low.

The good part is that we keep hearing of multiple companies building factories to supply automotive batteries in large numbers, in the range of tens of thousands So, the initial prices should come down fairly steadily over the first 5 years, or however long it takes to get the process highly automated.

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Marcus R (WL# 5275) Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

Inspired body design like that should be cause for sentencing.

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Jackson Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

The deal with thermal dissociation is that if you could create a really hot, concentrated source of energy (as with some kind of souped-up reactor), you could introduce water at temperatures so high that the constituent elements would literally fly apart — into very hot hydrogen and oxygen gas (and some steam). You’d exhaust the gas to a chamber lined with a material permeable to hydrogen (shouldn’t be too hard, the trick is to find something that isn’t permeable to hydrogen). The seperated gas would be cooled and compressed for use as a fuel.

Leftover heat can power a conventional rankine cycle to generate electricity the old fashioned way, with steam turbines.

It’s a two-fer.

The oxygen form question becomes important because monatomic oxygen and ozone are health hazards. True, they tend to degrade quickly, but they can do damage to organic tissue until they do.

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Colin Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

I wonder if service stations will invest in rapid chargers, or even if they are something that would work for putting a charge on a battery pack in 5-10 minutes.

I have seen cell phone charging stations at airports – $1 for a few minutes of charge.

If I knew I could rely on a station along many of the routes I would take – even across country – I feel ok with 100m range. Remember this is the US – innovation will follow these first EV offerings like internet busineses after the dot.com. I am getting my solar panels NOW!!

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ThomC Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Statik #148

>> think it will only take a monatomic form when heated to around 3000+ Kelvin.

Try dropping a zero off of that… 3000K is plasma… IOW the surface of the Sun!

>> I’m not sure what application this could possibly be viable in

It’s called FUSION

>> as the amount of energy spent would be enormous

Ya think?

———————————————–
Jackson #153

>> The oxygen form question becomes important because monatomic oxygen and ozone are health hazards. True, they tend to degrade quickly, but they can do damage to organic tissue until they do.

Not to mention iron, copper, plastics, internal organs, external organs… Seriously, with all of the hype over “the only emissions from hydrogen combustion are water…” I’m very concerned about the environmental impacts of the sheer AMOUNT of free oxygen that could be released as a result of a hydrogen economy.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

#148 Statik

I’ll add another piece to the hydrogen discussion based on my hazy recollection of my chemical engineering education. If you impart enough energy you can knock the neutron pants right off of water’s hydrogen atoms.

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Jeff M Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

Lyle writes `Called by Some a “Volt Fighter”’

First I’ve heard it called that, who supposedly has called it that? I bet it wasn’t Nissan (if anyone other than GM spin).

I also think some folks missed critical part of Lyle’s post and only looked at the photo… that photo is of a test mule… it’s NOT the skin that will be on the final product, just like the photos we’ve seen of Volt mules actually have the skin of a different vehicle.

If it got 100 miles/charge even without a “range extender”, if it was priced right I’d consider buying one. Especially if it was a 5 seater vs. the Volt’s 4 seater.

Speaking of price, did anyone hear the price that was given for the Volt in the CNBC “Saving GM” documentary last night? They said $45,000 “plus”. Give me a 100 mile/charge pure BEV for $25,000 and with the savings I’ll buy my own “range extender” in the form of a 2nd car.

In any case, 2010 looks to be an exiting time! Go GM with the Volt, go Nissan w/whatever this will be, and go go go to all the other auto makers (and want to be auto makers) with your BEV’s and we’ll have choices and we all win!

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Volt Killer Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

That looks like a sweet ride. I have no doubt that Nissan will build their EV right. If I was GM I would be afraid, very afraid.

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Lexus Quality Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

Lexus named top Quality Car again, assuming its rightful place at the top of the car heap. Let’s hope the Volt can do same. Come on GM, you can do it. Don’t let Toyota shame you like this.

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speedy Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

People seem’s to forget that the E Flex Drive System is a platforum that can be put on all manner of cars, it is very flexable.

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recyclable electric vehicle Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Here is a Recyclable Electric Vehicle (REV) that only costs 6,600 euros that is currently undergoing testing in Zurich.

http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/sam-the-gorgeous-pint-sized-recyclable-electric-vehicle

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speedy Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Being Flexable as the Volt system is it will be able to be put on small to large cars and trucks . And keep the price down.

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Toyota Hybrid Price Hike ! Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:20 pm

The Volt is beginning to look cheaper since a 2009 Toyota hybrid will be a bit more pricey than a 2008 model. Toyota said that it will raise the prices for the Prius (effective August 1) and Camry (effective August 25) by $500, which means that a 2009 Toyota Prius will start at $22,720, including a $720 destination charge. The Touring version will be priced from $24,990, lifting the price tag for a fully loaded Prius above $33,000 .

The 2009 Toyota Camry hybrid will cost at least $26,870. The Highlander hybrid SUV will also see a price increase. The new model will start at $35,445 (beginning on August 25), including a $745 shipping charge, which translates into a $518 jump.

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ghost Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

it’s ALL vaporware until we see it on the showroom floor.

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Tagamet Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

@161
“Here is a Recyclable Electric Vehicle (REV) that only costs 6,600 euros …”

6,600 euros, what’s that, about 8 million dollars? (jk, kinda).

nasaman,
As much as I agree with you, life’s too short for that level of aungst – especially when there’s a year or so of mouth-noise still ahead! Take a nice sunset ride on your boat.
Be well,
Tag

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George Clooney Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

Hello Everybody,
My name is George. I drive a Tango EV. It go Fast.
Really Fast. Me Go Now.

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wwskinn3 Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

JUST SAW A NEAT ADD FOR THE CHEVY VOLT ON THE YAHOO HOME PAGE. LOOKS LIKE GM IS STARTING TO GET THE WORD OUT.

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Statik Says:
August 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

#107 Statik (me)
on the last thread:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/06/saving-general-motors/#comments

“Side note: I had to fight for control of the TV over “So You Think You Can Dance,” for the record I’m going to take Joshua as the winner, lol.”

I TOTALLY got it right…again.

Apparently, I am not only a brilliant deductive reasoner for all things GM/financial…I am also a savant, or learned scholar if you will, of dance and the arts.

/I am also wicked humble too

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Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:01 am

Other ’schtuff:

Here is the spy shots of the Chevy Beat…we won’t be getting. I’m sure it’s of interest now, lol.

http://www.nextautos.com/worlds-first-look-chevrolet-beat-prototype-gallery

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canehdian Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am

#155 ThomC
I think you have Kelvin confused with something else – Kelvin (K) is in the same order as Celsius (C) it’s just a “calibration shift”.
Kelvin is Celsius – 273.15
or 300K = ~27 C
The sun is still much hotter than 3000K, I believe, so this number is possible.

Basically, the answer to the oxygen question is that under boiling conditions (100C or 373K) oxygen will most likely take the form of O2.
That’s a pretty general assumption – there are many factors, such as concentration, pressure, etc.

And the amount of oxygen that could potentially be released in the formation of hydrogen from water is technically negated once that hydrogen is reformed to water, either through combustion or through chemical means (fuel cell).
Short term changes would be negligible – there is so much oxygen in our atmosphere, it would take much more water than we could possibly split and contain the hydrogen for to make a change in the composition of our atmosphere.

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Statik Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am

More other ’schtuff

Here is a spy shot of the new Astra…which is on the new Delta platform (it has the 1.4 turbo as a option).

http://www.autounleashed.com/the-new-2009-opel-astra-spied

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wwskinn3 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am

For those of you who might know – Does the 1.4 engine that powers the generator have to meet any polution standards since it does not move the car? The generator motor on a motor home does not so it seems to reason that it would not on the Volt. If this is the case then it would not be subject to inspection.

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Grizzly Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:39 am

This car reminds me of that Scion box that AC propulsion makes. You do have to wonder with aero like that just how effective the regen braking will be. And, as has been pointed out we’ll have to see just how many of these promised vehicles actually make their target date, as it’s a big leap between offering a concept and an actual vehicle.

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Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:43 am

wwskinn3, I would really doubt the genset would not have to meet automobile emission standards (comparing it to a mtor home is apples and oranges).

And fwiw, at least around these parts, the engine on automobiles are never subject to inspection, only mechnical/electrical things like brakes, tires, the horn, lights, etc are. However most autos are subject to emissions testing at the tail pipe (much older cars are exempt). The Volt I would imagine will have a tail pipe (got to make sure it doesn’t end up in the vehicles cabin and spewing it out under the hood is likely to go into the cabin air intake).

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Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:52 am

Grizzly, once again read Lyle’s base post… the photo is of a test mule, not of the vehicle Nissan is building.

Also Nissan apparently appears to be past the “concept” stage if they are actually running test mules like the one pictured… keeping in mind that GM only put together test mules this year as well, and both are claiming late 2010 introductions. It doesn’t mean Nissan won’t slip their dates…. but keep in mind that GM could just as easily slip theirs as well.

ps to Lyle… those new avatars are really annoying w/long page loads… it doesn’t look like the IMG tags have width/height attributes so the browser as it loads the many avatars has to keep redrawing the page, causing the page to jump as each one is loaded Either add the size attributes or K.I.S.S. them goodbye

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JonP Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 1:03 am

#154 Colin,

“I wonder if service stations will invest in rapid chargers, or even if they are something that would work for putting a charge on a battery pack in 5-10 minutes.”

I would assume over time rapid charge (220 volt) stations will be available. I’m not a “battery expert” (remember that douche) but if i remember correctly one of the GM engineers said you can charge the battery like 50% in the first 2-3 hours of charge time on regular 110v.
But how hard would it be for local towns/buisness/ shopping malls to hook a 110 volt outlet to lets say something similar to a parking meter.
.25 cents gets you an hour
$1.00 gets you 4 hours

were not talking about huge infrastructure changes were talking about a pay-phone with 110v outlet. (anything with a coin slot really and a timer)

Not to mention all of the 24hr walmarts offer free electric hookup. (part of the Good Sam RV club, but do not need to be a member)

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Len Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 4:14 am

A couple of things from the Popular Mechanics article: The EV-02 won’t be available for purchase until 2012, and the range they are shooting for is more like 150 miles.

The reason the Prius price is going up is that the value of the dollar is going down. Unhapply our pay is not going up or the Volt would be chump change by 2010.

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Joe Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 6:38 am

Sam Says: @113

“Patritism MATTERS, people!! Not all the cars assembled in NA are equal. It all depends where the profit of the automobile company will go. You can be sure 100%, foreign companies’ pockets lined with profits made from North Americans buying their goods will benefit their own home country’s economy FIRST AND FOREMOST, and NOT us in NA.”

**********************************************************************

I like your kind of thinking.Born in Korea, like you have, gives you more insight at how people think there. We in the NA don’t think that way probably because we Americans are spoil and have not seen real hard times in many decades.

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mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:21 am

#140 -RB…no problem, just stating my position.
#141 – & 151 RB Not sweating it (the price yet) but everyone hears “the volt costs $45,000″ and automatically assumes that means they will sell it at $45,000.

I am looking for a definitive they said MSRP is $45,000 which I doubt they did, and I expect them to still sell at around the 30k price range for the first year, lose money on the first 10,000 units to get there, and as technology and economies of scale kick in, then start making serious corporate saving dough.

What you hear, and what they said are not neccessarily the same..It would make sense for GM to lose even 10k per car the first year (only building 10k anyway so the total loss is 100 million, just to penetrate the market and establish a dominant position. LIke I said T lost money on all first year priuses, but look at the payoff now! segmant domination.

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hermant Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:55 am

It seems to me that NOT having a range extending feature (any kind of range extension; doesn’t have to be an ICE) pretty much kills the BEV love for most Americans. We seem to not be addressing a very obvious, major league flaw in the Nissan design. Regardless of the range numbers that you finally end up with, what happens when you run out of juice? Sure you can say, “I’d never do that. I’m running just 20 miles a day.”

Well, sure, and you’re not human. And you don’t live in a world with humans driving all around you. Be honest with yourself. Have you ever forgotten to do something? Say, hypothetically, plugging in the electric car every night. Have you ever pushed a tank of gas when the needle was clearly bearing down on “E”? Is it possible that a detour around an accident might cause you to drive more miles than you planned? Or maybe (heaven forbid) this is your wife’s car? Can anyone really forsee the future so well as to KNOW that, say, 100 miles is ALWAYS going to be enough range for you?

And then once you admit that you are human, and that you are surrounded by humans, and that, yes, once in a while this 100 mile range sucker is going to run out of juice before you get back to your driveway, then what? Have you really thought through what it would be like to be out of juice and 10 miles from your favorite electrical outlet? Do you call a tow truck or a charge truck? And if so, how long does it take for you to get enough juice to get home? Does he charge you hard cash each minute that you wait for the recharge to complete? What about all those less than desirable neighborhoods that you drive through on your daily commute? Which one of those are you willing to spend an hour or two in with only a charge truck driver to keep you company? Oh, what a pleasant thought!

Range extension is a HUGE deal. In America, in Japan, in Europe; it just doesn’t matter. We are all human, and so we are all subject to human frailties. We forget stuff. We make mistakes. We screw up. Part of engineering any quality product is considering all of the use cases, including the ones where things DON’T go as planned. If you think that this Nissan talk is really good competition for the Volt, have you really considered what happens when all the juice is gone?

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mitch Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:17 am

#154

“Give me a 100 mile/charge pure BEV for $25,000″

Where did you get this? the article states at the end..no word on cost…

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ThombDbhomb Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am

#180 hermant
In 30 years of driving, I have never run out of gas. I guess I’m not human.

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Jeff Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:08 am

I’m all for range extenders when they’re needed. For folks that are not trailer backing challenged, why not make them available as part of an aero towable module that could take some extra stuff on trips in the bargain.

I’d much rather rent one when needed than cart it around all the time spending time and money on maintenance.

Besides, the GM range extender solution has so much overkill that one wonders why they bother – especially building a new plant (except that it’s a shot in the arm for Flint that’s a good thing).

Something like a one liter Rotapower compound cycle engine (3 moving parts, high thermal efficiency, and a fraction of the size & weight of the GM four banger) and a couple of the UQM 25kw head end units (7″x7.5″dia – 49lb each) will make a compact, light, and highly efficient auxiliary power source for home standby and auto range extention when scale production efficiencies make them affordable.

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Jackson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 9:52 am

hermant (#180):

…and what happens when you get home and find the power off? (That’s not just a human “oops, forgot to pay the bill” thing either; we had some severe power-killing thunderstorms this week, and an ice storm or two per winter is possible, even in Atlanta).

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Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:58 am

hermant, what happens when you run out of gas… or your ICE just breaks down (much more likely than an electric drive train breaking down)?

I almost ran out of gas the other day… and the hard part with conventional vehicles is we don’t know exactly how much gas/range we have… my “miles left to empty” display had already gone to “—-”. With a BEV, assuming a display panel, it’s much easier for an BEV to know much more precisely how much more “juice” you have left.

I also see with enough pure BEV’s on the road in an area that road side assistence will be able to provide a quick partial charge, enough to get you home or to a “quick charge” station.

In any case, I’m not saying in the short term that pure BEV’s are for the masses, but thousands of folks in this country have already gotten over range fear. Early part of this decade when California’s ZEV mandate still had it’s teeth thousands more loved their BEV’s (some lucky souls were lucky enough to purchase their previously leased Rav4-EV’s, wish I had one myself).

I know my driving habits, a 100 mile range BEV would cover me for 363 days/year…. the other 2 days I’d use my old car or my girlfriends car.

mitch, I wasn’t specifically refering to this Nissan vehicle…. but yea, we have no idea for actual retail price of any of them until they are much closer (months) to being available, even the Volt price seems to keep going up ($30k, then $35k, then $40k, now CNBC GM story says $45k “and up”). In any case, the point is “if” a pure BEV is significantly less than the Volt (or other hybrid EV’s like the Volt), I could do a lot with the savings. If the pure BEV’s and the Volt are close in price when they come out then that’s another matter and I’d have to look at each and decide (such as the Volt being only a 4 seater, if the other is a 5 that could be the deciding point), etc.

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Jeff M Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am

Jackson, if there is a wide spread power outtage, do the gas stations run off backup generators? Where are you going to go during an outtage, the businesses and the malls close when there is no power.

In any case, with a 100+ mile range BEV I’m not going to be using that range every day… if the power is out, I could skip a day of recharging like if the power is out. Others may have their own backup home generators (I haven’t bought one myself, in my current home of 5 years I’ve only lost power a couple of times and only once was it longer than a couple of hours, and I’m in a rural area now, in my previous home that I had for 12 years I had only 2, maybe 3, overnight power outtages… and I guess I should knock on wood ).

But you are still right… there will be times the pure BEV can’t be recharged during an outtage when you do need it, and that’s when I get in my old car. The first generation (or two) of pure BEV’s won’t have range or the recharging infrastructure to be the only vehicle(s) in some (or most?) households. That’s why having choices available is a good thing.

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noel park Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am

#182 ThombDbhomb:

I guess not, LOL! I can truthfully say that, in 30 days of driving, I have never run out of gas. Maybe even 30 months – I have been doing pretty well lately.

Well, we ran one of our race cars out of gas at Portland in 2006, so I guess not. Gas is heavy, so we try to carry the minimum. Sound familiar? We got our sums wrong and ran out about 500 feet from start/finish. Oh well, even the big guys do that once in awhile. Still finished first though, LMAO. I think somebody said it here the other day, “Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in awhile.”

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jkh2000 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

FMEIII needs to get a life. If any manufacturer can help the US out in its hoggish ways of using oil then more power to them. We are so dependant on oil, we need alternative vehicles to help us and the enviroment. If Nissan can do this and make it work, then why can’t the US manufacturers do the same? I sometimes think they all want to fail and quit making cars and thus losing millions of dollars a year. I support GM and the Volt 100% and cannot wait to get my hands on one. We need alternative fuel vehicles now rather than later and hopefully we will see the oil companies drop from 200%+ profits to 5% profits.

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Jackson Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

At the moment, we’re all thinking of the Volt’s range extender vs a pure BEV as the only possibilities for electric drive (and why not? the Volt is such a new idea). I wonder if something in-between won’t emerge?

Someone might offer an on-board generator much smaller than the Volt’s 1.4L, intended not to sustain charge while providing all driving power, but rather to serve as a “limp-mode” / emergency charger; intended for use only when the battery is actually near depletion. It would get you off the road to safety (albiet very slowly), where you would park until the little generator could catch the battery up to the ten or so miles it could take to get to a suitable plug-in location.

Such a generator would be lighter, cheaper, possibly air-cooled, and a source of Volt-like security (if not performance) on a budget.

At a (slight) step up above this, a small and lightweight (but less ‘cheap’) generator might be designed to augment, or “stretch” battery charge, rather than sustain a state of charge. That theoretical ‘long haul up the matterhorn’ would about kill it, but again, you get what you pay for.

And no, I don’t think either of these things should be offered before the Volt. The Volt is as much about proving a point to the car-buying public as it is about anything else. If consumers buy some version of range-extender “lite” and are disappointed, many may not give serial electric drive another chance.

For the same reason, I don’t think that a ‘lite’ genset has any place on a Volt. 40 miles AER wouldn’t be a good fit for a small generator; it would provoke great dissatisfaction.

There could be a whole range of possibilities we’ll see where which starts on one end with a short AER and a big genset (Volt), and ends up with a long AER and a small genset (or ultimately, no genset).

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Whistleteeth Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Anything not pure ICE will sell like mad in California. Hey gas is WAY DOWN in my neighborhood it’s only $4.21 and deisel is just $5.00!! What a deal!

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Colin Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

I am somewhere around #4000 on the wait list on this site. My enthusiasm for the Volt has never waivered. However, I have other obligations like most families, so buying the Volt as it passes the $40K mark will not be something I could do lightly. The 2 nominees seem to be upping one another on a rebate for a PHEV, I have seen $5k and $7k tossed around – so that could take a $35K price to $28k – I could do that ($464/mth – 7yr@6%) – if I could forego the 5 tanks of gas a month I use now (12Gal @ $4 x 5 = $240) so really it would be a little over $220 with that senario.

On the other hand, a limited range EV, in a quality offering, at a great price would be something to look at. Plus the tax incentive would also apply. What do I do now if I am low on gas – stop at nearest station. What would I do in an EV? Same thing, how long would it take to discover where I could stop and charge at. Time? It takes less than 10 minutes to stop and fill up with gas, I would have no issue waiting 15-20 minutes to get enough charge to get home, plus I know I saw that there were chargers that could do a rapid charge – they are expensive – but savvy service station owners will make them available.

How about running out of juice in an EV? I have run out of gas before – not fun, just because there is a gas station on every corner does not make it easier. Do you carry a gas can? Full or empty? Does the gas station you walked 3 miles to offer you a can to borrow? Can you ask a store owner or a local homeowner for some gas if walking to a station is not an option? Maybe, but I would pack the equivilant of a syphon hose in my trunk – a 100′ extension cord, I am sure an offer of $5 for a 30 minute plugin would be easier to find then borrowing some gas.
PLUS, if the difference does happen to be $10k less, I could put up 2KW of solar panels (after incentives) with the savings. I am a Volt fan – but you have to be practical.

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Don Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

NIssan is partnered with Agassi’s Project Better Place and is already committed to building EVs for those markets. (So far Israel and Denmark).

Introducing models made to appeal more to American tastes is an easy way to leverage that investment even if the initial uptake is low.

Any uptake at all helps them distribute their fixed costs all the more.

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hermant Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 9:55 am

Running out of gas is quite different than running out of juice. It takes, what, five minutes to put a full tank of gas into your car. It takes six hours to “refuel” the Volt batteries.

And anyone that thinks that battery capacity is MORE measureable than fuel tank capacity has another thing coming. As an avid RVer, I’ve been living off of batteries from time to time for over two decades. No one, and I mean no one, has a decent, accurate, reliable, dependable means of measuring battery capacity WHILE IN USE. You can always stop, disconnect ALL loads from the battery, let the battery set for a spell, take a voltage reading, extrapolate the relative capacity, then re-engage the battery loads, and finally still run out of juice before the measurements predicted, but that’s just silly! No, I really would prefer to take my chances with an old fashioned tank of petrol and a wooden stick! JMHO.

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KentT Says:
November 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

The first post said it all, “vaporware.” And 100 mile range? Not viable in the US. Europe and Japan? Great. The US? 200 miles is a minimum range. The US is a big country with everything spread out. ALL electric? A non-starter as an only car. The pure electric vehicle, with 200 mile range, seating for 4, with four doors and a decent trunk and realistic performance (acceleration and top speed) you STILL need fast charging. 80% charge after 5 minutes.

In the US nothing less is volume car. Anything less is a novelty.

Oh, and let’s see if Nissan can build a car with a battery double or triple the size of the Volt’s (AND good for 100,00 miles or 10 years)and sell it for $20,000.

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iRoc Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 10:21 am

NISSAN ELECTRIC SEDAN – reveal August 1, 2009.

http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-car/

Boxer only testing the electric drive !

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