GM Says Chevy Volt Battery Will Have a 10-Year 150,000-Mile Warranty
Larry Burns is GMs VP of research and development. He was interviewed by Design News and had some interesting things to say about the Volt and related issues.
He noted that the final a battery supplier has yet to be chosen and both A123 and LG Chem are still in the running.
He indicates that GM has "confirmed the capability of our selected cell chemistry in terms of safety, range, recharge time, power density and energy density," and has fully come to understand cell and module integration into the pack, and pack integration into the vehicle from packaging, safety, and performance vantage points.
Although he confirms battery development remains on track, he noted that challenges remain in proving the batteries will last 10 years and 150,000 miles, indicating for the first time publicly that GM plans to warranty that benchmark.
He mentions how high and critical standards must be achieved for cell production so that the 200 to 300 per pack work flawlessly all the time.
Burns also intriguingly stated that electric propulsion could be leveraged across GMs entire portfolio, being placed into all vehicle sizes from commuter cars to full family vehicles. He says that battery energy density will have to improve though before E-Flex cars larger than the Volt could emerge.
Source (Design News )
Popularity: 6%
Related posts:
- Next Generation Chevy Volt Might Have 80 Mile Electric Range With Same Size Battery
- Compact Power CEO Describes How Their New Chevy Volt Cells are Better
- GM-Volt EXCLUSIVE: Interview and Podcast with A123 co-founder, CTO, and VP of R&D Bart Riley on Building the Volt’s Battery Pack
- Fully Operational 40 Mile Range Chevy Volt Prototype to Hit Road This Month
- Volt Pricing to Take High Battery Warranty Cost into Account
(17 votes, average: 4.82 out of 5) 
Loading ...
August 5th, 2008 at 6:02 am
The long warranty is excellent news. It will provide a lot of reassurance on what might otherwise be a major holdback on a purchase.
200 to 300 cells? Why is it a variable?
August 5th, 2008 at 6:09 am
This is truly great news.
But now they have to get ready for large scale manufacturing of these battery packs. That is the last barrier to getting the Volt out in large numbers, which is what we all want!
August 5th, 2008 at 6:12 am
It has been previously mentioned by anonymous posters that both battery life and consistency among various batteries are highly challenging. Also from this by Larry burns, it is not clear how the batteries from A123 and LG have performed so far after months of running.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:25 am
#3 Change
He did say the batteries “confirmed the capability of our selected cell chemistry in terms of safety, range, recharge time, power density and energy density,”
Now granted that Mr. Burns’ statement is selective. For example he says “cell chemistry” rather than “cells” or “battery” and no doubt his words are carefully chosen. Nonetheless, each one of these words could have been a major issue, so Mr Burns made a strongly positive statement.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:31 am
That kind of warranty is excellent. Now how about the rest of the car?
I would think the electric motor would be a no brainer, since I understand they don’t break.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:49 am
typo
150,00 miles
should be
150,000 miles
August 5th, 2008 at 6:54 am
This is Burn’s exact quote from the Design News interview: “But one of the important challenges remaining is proving ten-year, 150,000-mile life when we’re developing the battery over a three-year timeframe. Obviously, we’ll protect the customer in this regard with our warranty.”
Excellent news, and more to the point, it speaks to the seriousness with which GM is going about the Volt project vis-a-vis some of the other “me too” companies (Fisker and Malcolm Bricklin’s VIsionary Vehicles” that are promising to deliver serial PHEVs in the same time frame.
And, what’s with the block-head smiley faces over the posts?
August 5th, 2008 at 6:56 am
At least the $40K will be going towards a good warranty.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:02 am
10 years on the battery is a good warranty but why 150,000 miles? If you drive 40 miles every day for 10 years it comes to about 146,000 miles. If you use the range extender to drive another 40 per day, you will reach the mileage limit in about 5 years. The mileage warranty on the battery should be for electric driving only.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:05 am
So if you live in a harsher environment you get the same warranty. Kind of hard to believe, but when you see that those robots on Mars are still running years later, well, I guess the battery tech is more advanced than what we’ve commonly come to know of batteries. And people have posted on this board of excellent results with hand tools using lithium. It seems in a couple of years we’ll be pleased with the batteries as Mr Burns is suggesting. His hope for fuelcells may be less realistic. It has been awhile now, or so it seems, since the, nano-lithium?, battery was in the news, which if possible would seem to make fuelcells a no-go for common transportation.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:07 am
5 Rashiid Amul……. You say, “That kind of warranty is excellent. Now how about the rest of the car? I would think the electric motor would be a no brainer, since I understand they don’t break.”
Right you are, Rashiid! In fact, I recently bought a river-front home built in 1984 that still has its original Whirlpool 20 cu ft refrigerator (then still made in the USA) ….& still operating flawlessly after running 24/7 for 24 years with nary a service call!!! So if GM can make the Volt & its multitude of successors that reliable, the GM/Chevy “E-Rev olution” will be a huge success!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Hi, I’m a dark cloud…thats what I do. I would not want to disappoint anyone.
Larry Burns: “But one of the important challenges remaining is proving ten-year, 150,000-mile life when we’re developing the battery over a three-year timeframe. Obviously, we’ll protect the customer in this regard with our warranty, but we still need to prove out the required durability.”
Couple of things. I doubt it is the “VP of research and development” that decides the OEM warranty, so therefore if he already “knows “GM is going to warranty the battery for 10 years, I would wager it is more than likely GM is planning or ’seriously thinking’ about charging a monthly payment for this battery.
GM isn’t in the habit of just giving out 10 year/150 mile warranties. The new hotness at GM is cutting warranties in half. Changing 5 year/100mile warranties into 4 year/50,000.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25889617/
Guess there won’t be a Saab Volt?
The best way to look at this is to turn it around and look at it from GM’s point of view. Would any customers have any problems buying the Volt with a standard 5year/100,000 mile warranty? I don’t think so. Would a 5year/100,000 mile warranty in any way diminish the sellability of the prodect? No again.
So why would GM incur the potential extra cost beyond the standard warranty? Because they are nice guys? Or because they are planning to rent the battery?
/every cloud with a silver lining is really dark in the middle
August 5th, 2008 at 7:13 am
Note to GM: There will be some battery problems. Integrate the battery in such a way that it can be removed and replaced / repaired with a reasonable amount of labor. This will make warranty repair easier and make it easier for those who want the option of having a higher capacity battery installed in a few years when the technology improves.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:14 am
PS: Regarding battery life, we’re routinely getting >20yrs life from spacecraft batteries (with admittedly different chemistry —Nickel-Hydrogen), but Li-Ion should do as well given the extensive cell-level redundancy GM will undoubtedly employ.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:19 am
#12 dark cloud
My answer to your question is because the battery probably isn’t serviceable like an engine in a car, that’s a big difference to me. The warranty is all important. I think the Federal Gov. is looking for that kind of life expectency too.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:19 am
Another note, FYI….
One of the cable news stations, I think it is MSNBC, is going to have a special in-depth story on GM this Wed night (Aug 6, 08). They are advertising a long term investigative story on GM’s turnaround (Or GMs troubles - however you see it) and they mentioned the Volt just before noting the upcoming special. I assume the special will cover the volt as well as all the other GM issues.
On a side note, the commentator mentioned the collaboration with Ford on Engines but doubted GM would be sharing E-Flex anytime soon.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:33 am
Statik forever the optimus !! You may be right , but if GM has data strong evidence that the battery packs last much longer that 150,000 then this warranty would put to bed any fears a customer would have about buying a first generation Volt . Plus if the volt sales go south in the next five years and GM pulls the plug on the line , its pretty much lights out for GM , and that 10/150k warranty is not worth the paper it’s written on .
August 5th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Such an extended warranty, (4 times the amount of standard warranties) would justify an increase in cost of roughly $6,000… I for one would appreciate the piece of mind when we’re talking about actually purchasing the battery as opposed to leasing. Seems fair to me.
Also, when factoring in the tax credits which both presidential candidates are now touting (granted these are campaign promises) of at least $5,000, we’re getting much closer to the base price of $30,000.
Statik, do you actually read your posts? “every cloud with a silver lining is really dark in the middle” give us a break today, will you?
August 5th, 2008 at 7:42 am
#12 Statik, You make a great point most days, but I think today you are really reaching and missing the obvious. My Toyota Prius has a 150,000 mile warranty on the battery. Essentially Toyota set the bar. If GM said we’ll warranty this 10,000$ battery for 4 years or 50,000 miles there is no way I’d buy a volt. Even 100,000 miles I’d be hard pressed. Not to mention the press they’d get comparing GM’s battery warranty to that of the 150K prius. I know the chemistry is completely different, but they don’t need to report that if they have a story of GM not as confident in their battery as Toyota is.
Even with this mornings err I’ll still be reading your posts and waiting for you to say “Today is the day I’m buying GM stock”. Because that day either GM is going to double or the world is going to end.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:44 am
When I read this, I first thought it was for the whole vehicle.
I thought wow!!! That’d be killer…. a 10 yr, 150,000 mile warranty. I’d buy that. You give me a $7,000 tax rebate plus the above warranty (about $4K-$5K add-on). And you’ve got a net adjustment of about $10,000 on the Volt.
I think GM should offer the 10 yr, 150,000 mile drivetrain warranty on the Volt.
Cause that headline made me drool. I was like “Yessss!!!!”
August 5th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Statik I don’t know what the final decision will be on the warranty but you have to remember that it could have something to do with the fact that GM might not have to foot the bill for a new battery if the old one fails. Could be the battery manufacture would get the hit. It could also mean that a prorated battery wouldn’t result in to much of a cost hit say 7 or 8 years down the road when the batteries start to fail due to age and wear.
By then the cost of the batteries will likely be much lower (fingers crossed) and replacement cost at a prorated amount would cut the cost even more. I doubt a battery giving sub 40 mile range at 9 years of life is going to be replace by a brand new battery for free.
As always the article bring up more questions than they answer. I think I will stop reading before I don’t know anything about the Volt.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:51 am
heck id be happy with a 7 year 125 k mile gaurentee ..
August 5th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Dave B.,
4 times standard warranty? Isn’t the standard for the previous 07 and 08 models 100,000 mile / 5 yr transferable powertrain warranty for new and used vehicles.
Nuclearboy,
It’s actually on CNBC because I see the commercials everyday during Fast Money and Cramer.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Too bad that GM will not use the Panasonic EV-95 NiMH battery found in the Toyota RAV4-EV which has ALREADY proven that is will maintain its life for the 10 years, 100,000 + miles….
Of course, GM sold the rights to NiMH batteries to Texaco/Chevron.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Kevin @ 23,
Most vehicles I have bought have warranties terminate at 35,000. I haven’t purchased a new GM vehicle, ever. My last new American vehicle was a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee and that was nowhere past 35,000 (naturally when the problems started kicking in). So I figure 150,000 / 35,000 = just over 4.2.
Of course if we’re not talking about miles and just about batteries, we’re not comparing apples to apples.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Kevin @ 23,
Most vehicles I have bought have warranties terminate at 35,000. I haven’t purchased a new GM vehicle, ever. My last new American vehicle was a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee and that was nowhere past 35,000 (naturally when the problems started kicking in). So I figure 150,000 / 35,000 = just over 4.2.
====================================
I read an article in an auto magazine where EV’s will have 1/10th the moving parts of an ICE power vehicle.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:22 am
This is good news. One of my nagging concerns with E-Flex is that you can’t really know a battery will last 10 years in less than 10 years. You can try to find approximations and tests which are suggestive of battery life, but nothing can substitute for the passage of time, and the real world.
The blocky, smiley-face things signify new support for “gravatars” (see Lyle’s comment in the last post). You can make a little pic come up next to your comments, now.
(irony on)
Isn’t technology wonderful?
(irony off)
August 5th, 2008 at 8:37 am
26 Brad G…. You say, “I read an article in an auto magazine where EV’s will have 1/10th the moving parts of an ICE power vehicle.”
Of course, the Volt’s ICE/Gen range extender adds back lots of parts. However, a major advantage of the E-REV/Volt architecture is that it has TWO separate propulsion systems! This means that, if GM carefully avoids credible single-point failures, a Volt driver should NEVER be stranded between the fast lane & the concrete barrier on freeways if the range extender runs out of gas or fails for any reason —or if the battery fails or is fully discharged!!! IT’S A REAL SAFETY ADVANTAGE —THEREFORE A HUGE MARKETING ADVANTAGE— FOR THE E-REV CONCEPT!!!
NO MORE WAITING FOR AN HOUR OR MORE IN A HAZARDOUS LOCATION FOR YOUR WIFE OR AAA TO RESCUE YOU!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 8:42 am
#18 Dave B
“Statik….give us a break today, will you?”
I gave you the whole last thread, lol. Two in a row? Can’t be done, lol. Besides, any thread that lets me state my unhappiness with not owning the Volt 100% is a good thread.
For the record: I will only BUY a Volt. I will not rent or lease under any situation. To me, the Volt represents independance, and I demand that choice.
August 5th, 2008 at 8:51 am
#29 Statik (Me)
“To me, the Volt represents independance, and I demand that choice.”
I also demand a dictionary. “Independence”
August 5th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Statik,
Saab is the only group that will have it’s powertrain reduced. GMs powertrain warranty is what sells vehicles for their “non-premium brands” (pontiac, gmc, chev, buick, etc). Those warranties are going nowhere.
There will be no rental fee for this battery, GM is making a statement by expanding this warranty. By the time people get passed their 3-year/60,000 km (that’s 36,000 miles for you yanks) and their powertrain of 5 years/160,000 KM (100,000 miles, again…. yanks
battery costs will hopefully have come down by about half and will cost GM considerably less. Not to mention, I’m sure GM will have a contract structure with the suppliers who will also help carry some of this cost for replacements. They would have to or there would be no contract.
Chris
August 5th, 2008 at 8:59 am
29 Statik:
Is Independance a 1776 version of Riverdance?
August 5th, 2008 at 9:04 am
I too, will not consider a VOLT unless I can own it driving off the lot. Unless, of course, it’s to field test a prototype!
Be well,
Tag
August 5th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Gsned57: “Even with this mornings err I’ll still be reading your posts and waiting for you to say “Today is the day I’m buying GM stock”. Because that day either GM is going to double or the world is going to end.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you. That is the best laugh I have had in days!!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 9:10 am
GM has to offer a warranty they feel they can live with and still offer the customer something in return. Most of us have grown up with ICE warranties of 36 months/36,000 miles. Those warranties have only recently been extended to the current offerings. Warranties are used as a sales tool more today than they used to be. It will take several years before the Volt type vehicle’s warranties are proven.
I am ready for some really good news. If GM offers a 10 year/150,000 mile warranty, that would help some people who are on the fence about buying a Volt. But GM will only do what is best for GM, I am sure.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Static - I’ll have to politely disagree with you. I think GM is really going to give us this battery in the upfront cost, and with the full Warranty. Why? Average people won’t buy a car where they rent the battery, or where they have to effectively replace the engine after 100,000 miles. We passed that in 1980’s.
I agree with many other folks that this warranty is a very very big deal. I believe failure to achieve this would’ve led to a market failure. As a consumer, I would not spend 30K on a car that requires and additional 5K in 6 or 7 years. It would kill the cost effectiveness. A few people would buy it (see Tesla), but not the general public. This is very good news.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:22 am
#28 nasaman
Very good point. I had not thought of the of the two propulsion safety advantage.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:24 am
NOW you can justify a 72 month payment plan. duh.
To justify paying 40K for a sedan that’s not a luxury car, you have get value. When we were told the Volt would cost 40K, I dedided I could not afford one. The payment would be too high for a 5 year note.
A six year note, with the GUARANTEE for 150,000 miles, and the possibility of repowering the vehicle with another battery for another 150,000, means 40K is a very reasonable investment.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:27 am
@ jabroni
“A NiMH battery can have two to three times the capacity of an equivalent size NiCd. However, compared to the lithium-ion battery, the volumetric energy density is lower and self-discharge is higher.”
It’s a simple google search…use it. I would assume that this means lithium ion batteries will weigh less per k/w than a NiMh battery. When it comes to electric vehicles this is a huge thing. Also, i’m not sure but I think the NiMH has some real problems dealing with the effects of heat and cold.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Concerning the Volt battery and the dashboard instrumentation….
A suggestion for consideration…
On the Volt (version 2) dashboard, have a large Delco battery “green eye” indicator.
Make it look like the HAL 9000 “eye” in “2001: A Space Odyssey” only green in color.
It would essentially be the “Service Battery” light.
Green would be “Normal” / Red would be “Service”.
If the “eye” was red and you plugged the vehicle into the home AC outlet, that creepy 2001 voice would play saying….. “I’m sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that”.
“Daisy, Daisy…..”
August 5th, 2008 at 9:28 am
No one has commented on the picture presented along with Lyle’s comment. What are the two large tanks depicted in the picture? Looks like LPG type tanks. Certainly not gasoline tanks. Also noticed it sports two charging ports, one on each front fender area. This may be an old picture, or maybe not.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Admittedly, I am not a battery expert. When Burns said, “…our selected cell chemistry…,” I wondered if the competing batteries use the same cell chemistry. Can someone please answer that?
August 5th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Why can’t they build a EV with 300 mile range that looks different. I mean tesla can go 200+ miles while still ataining a huge acceleration rate. GM has more capital to invest in this then tesla.
I would buy an EV with 300 mile range… That should take me basically as far as i need to do most days. If i am going long range rent a car…
August 5th, 2008 at 9:37 am
As some have said, at the end GM will ask the battery vendor to backup any warranty on the battery, so it’s a limited risk.
PS.: @ Statik, you really are the attention seaker, you should post more often in the forums. But again, less people would read you. At least on the last few posts you didn’t hack the main subject.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:44 am
@ 43 brandon
These reasons for this are simple. Tesla’s battery cost many times that of the volt. It’s size and weight is also increased. Which is why the car is prices at 100,000 dollars. They also deplete their batteries to a lower charge rate. The volt as of the latest news charges between 35% and 80 or 85% I believe. This extends the life the battery alot. All Tesla has done is crammed alot of batteries into a light weight sports car and priced it at 100,000USD. You have to look at GM and understand they are going about this with the idea that they are going to change the world. They aren’t wanting to sell a few. They want to convert the automotive industry over to electric drive over the course of the next decade or so.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:54 am
#41 NRiley
That is the GM fuel cell powertrain. Those tanks are hydrogen tanks. Not the appropriate picture for this post….
August 5th, 2008 at 10:01 am
#42 ThombDbhomb points out “When Burns said, ‘…our selected cell chemistry…,’ ”
Yes, one wonders just what “selected cell chemistry” includes and excludes. Interesting phrase. He has chosen this wording carefully,.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:04 am
From the interview:
“Overall, the battery development is on track. But one of the important challenges remaining is proving ten-year, 150,000-mile life when we’re developing the battery over a three-year timeframe. Obviously, we’ll protect the customer in this regard with our warranty, but we still need to prove out the required durability.”
The 10 year, 150,000 mile warranty is still up in the air. They have commited to nothing yet.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:06 am
10 years / 150,000 mile warranty?
Another reason for me to buy one.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Aspherical
Thanks. I thought about it being the fuel cell version, but wasn’t sure. As far a GM committing to a warranty, they have plenty of time to iron out the remaining battery problems and settle on the warranty. Plenty of time — 2+ years!! Sure wish it was available this fall.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I’m thinking it’s possible that the real concern of Volt owners 8 years on will be: “How can I get one of those new ‘improved energy density’ batteries, and a firmware chip for 60 AER?”
Or, maybe they’ll just trade for the 2018 model.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:15 am
If you guys are wondering about what picture I will post, well, I don’t have to. That is the way I really look. Imagine, Lyle used my picture as the image default value.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:15 am
There is many new technologies on batteries, not just EEStor that everyone things is not going to happen (but hopefully it does).
This is called superlattice, it allows more storage and higher voltage: http://www.superlatticepower.com/index.html
Lithium Iron Phosphate, cheaper to use iron then cobalt. Once lithium iron was more expensive to manufacture, but not with this new technique: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-hybrid-electric-cars.php
Plus I am sure there are many more.. I am trying to find this article about this battery that uses a new material for its terminals that allow for quick charges as low at 10 minutes.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:18 am
That is the correct amount for the warranty. If you only offer 5 years and the pack fails. Thats a 15k? expense.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:25 am
I’m not a fan of fuel cells, as most of you know, but this could be major; someone has made a fuel cell without using platinum:
http://gizmodo.com/5032327/much-cheaper-fuel-cells-on-the-way-with-new-prototype
When discussing why fuel cells won’t work in the real world, one thing I (and many of you) often cite is the need to make hydrogen either from carbon-containing feedstock (typically natural gas), or through electrolysis (why not use the power to charge a battery).
This argument typically leads me to suggest that something like practical fusion will have to happen first, in perhaps 50 years time (so that hydrogen’s portability will become more important than the cost of the electricity). As a wild card, I’ve suggested that someone might come up with a way to use sunlight directly to split water. Well, guess what:
http://gizmodo.com/5031810/new-way-of-storing-solar-energy-discovered
Now let’s see them solve the so-far intractible problems of storing hydrogen on a vehicle, or distributing it.
Note that it’s conceivable that you could have your sunlight-to-hydrogen array at home to re-fill a fuel-cell car.
I am still skeptical that fuel cells are the way to go now, but I’ve downgraded my speculations from 50 years to 20 years (proving that it is possible for a poster on this site to have something of an opinion change).
Whatever you think of fuel cells, these developments bear watching (any fuel-cell fanboys with more detailed links, please post them).
August 5th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Statik, you idea about GM having a service agreement for the battery was intriguing. But I think it’s sucking some air. You haven’t addressed the excellent point made by omegamann66 in #21, which is that the battery will likely be warranted by the battery manufacturer not GM. I’m not sure exactly how this would work but I’m also sure that GM will get protection in this regard.
Then there is Gsned57 #19’s point that Toyota currently warrants their battery for 10 yr. 150,000 miles. It’s a different beast but for a consumer I’d think the battery would be a huge deal given this is a new technology. I’m sure GM’s marketing department has figured this out.
My personal feeling is that the batteries are not going to be a problem. I think that because whenever a manufacturer focuses on a potential weakness it never ends up to be a problem. My guess is that the problems will come up in one or more of the software systems which this car is going to have in abundance.
To push the point a bit, the batteries in the RAV have gone way beyond EOL. Even now the issues with these batteries have been more with the wiring and gettng the service departments at Toyota dealers to work on them rather than just wanting to replace the whole thing. The dealers are used to simply replacing rather than fixing electrical parts but this approach is problematic with a battery pack since it’s so expensive. I’m sure GM will have the same issues with its Chevy dealer service departments.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:43 am
#54 Jackson
I am watching the same developments concerning fuel cells. Maybe science and technology will coincide to give us a good energy future. We will see.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:46 am
#7 FME 111:
Malcom Bricklin??? LMAO. First I heard about this. What is it, a plug in hybrid Yugo?
19 Gsned57:
I agree. The day Toyota announced the extended warranty on the battery is the day the Prius became a viable car for consumers. Before that, everyone was terrified of an unproven battery which would cost several thousand dollars to replace. I have not heard that this has been a significant problem for Toyota.
GM can do no less, IMHO.
Having said that, this is very good news. We have the money. We are patiently waiting. There is not a moment to be lost.
BTW, I wonder what the warranty is on Malom’s battery, ROTFLMAO?
August 5th, 2008 at 10:48 am
#50 NRiley
“Sure wish it was available this fall.”
I hear that. I just moved to Denver two months back from the Chicago area where I bought a 4-cylinder car, which was a very reasonable choice at the time. This weekend I was driving in the mountains to about 11,000 feet and my poor engine was struggling due to the incline and loss of power due to the altitude. The entire time I was thinking, “What if I had a Volt now?” Increasing the torque and no loss of power due to the high altitude would be incredible. Add a 10 year, 150,000 mile warranty and it will be very difficult to ignore once I am ready for my next vehicle…
August 5th, 2008 at 10:48 am
N. Riley and Jackson,
I’m for anything that increases options for transportation! Affordability and ease of use (hopefully) will follow.
Be well,
Tag
(but I hear that hydrogen atoms are really, really, really, small)
August 5th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Statik,
For the first time, I disagree with you. I really don’t understand why you think GM can expect us to pay $40,000 for a Volt, plus lease payments on the battery. Especially when Toyota is already providing a 10-year, 150K mile warranty on their $22,000 Prius. Talk about instantly losing customer loyalty and market share. I’m a loyal domestic car owner, but I will quickly change colors if these are my options.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:55 am
#54 Jackson
You may not have to distribute it. With a claimed effeciency of 100%, this MIT professor says you can make hydrogen from water and PV panels.
http://www.forbes.com/energy/2008/07…0731solar.html
You could conceivably have “hydrogen stations” which manufactured the fuel rather than having is distributed. However, the professor in the accompanying video suggests that the hydrogen be used as a means of storing electricity which could then be used to charge electrical vehicles. In this case you’d have a closed system: SUN + WATER –> HYDROGEN –> HYDROGEN + FUEL CELL = ELECTRICITY + WATER.
The remaining problem with hydrogen which you haven’t mentioned is that it’s dangerous as all get out. Perhaps nasaman can comment on this.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Tag
Those “really, really small hydrogen atoms” are what make the storage problem really, really hard. That could be the last necessary puzzle-piece; and while I’ve seen some interesting research, I don’t know that any is really close to the required “killer app.” Certainly nothing as practical as where Li-Ion appears to be at the moment.
DonC:
Oh, the humanity!!!!!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:02 am
#60 Kent
Agreed. GM is going to have a hard enough time competing against the Prius as it is presently configured with the battery and mileage improvements Toyota has promised for the 2009 - 2010 version. Once Toyota adds the plug-in capability and keeps the cost below $30,000 and the “MPG” goes to 100 to 150 (whatever it actually does) it will be extremely hard to compete. Consumers will look at the prices of $40,000 and range extended capability versus less than $30,000 and up to 150 mpg and they will choose the Prius. It all comes down to dollars and cents when it comes to many consumers. They will say the Prius gives them much more than they ever had before in a proven package. It won’t help when Toyota produces 200,000 Priuses for the American market while GM is producing 50,000 Volts.
Like I have said before: It is going to be some interesting times for the next 4 or 5 years.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Statik #30 says,
“To me, the Volt represents independance, and I demand that choice.”
I also demand a dictionary. “Independence”
————
Statik. A dictionary can be provided right now.
Go to http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/
and click the big green button. It has a dictionary built right in.
It puts a red underline under the misspelled word. Then you can right click on the word and it pops up a menu with fairly good guesses at what you meant. The whole thing is free. I use it everyday and can’t see myself ever changing to that other thing.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Jackson@62,
Yeah, that’s what I was referring to with the PS. Currently, they are using 5 or 10 thousand PSI in their tanks to get any appreciable mileage.
Exciting times though,
Tag
August 5th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Hey, now the VOLT’s looking good again with a 10 year, 150,000 mile warranty for $40,000, plus by the time that warranty runs out there will be newer tech/packs to go into the VOLT.
Way to set the mark GM!
GO GM, GO VOLT for 2010.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:09 am
N. Riley@63,
I wonder if the new Prius will be E85 tolerant…. That’s be a big boost to lowering oil dependency.
Be well,
Tag
August 5th, 2008 at 11:10 am
An interesting point in the article is that “He says that battery energy density will have to improve though before E-Flex cars larger than the Volt could emerge.”
From an article yesterday in MIT Tech Review about recent developments at EESTOR by Tyler Hamilton, who is a respected journalist. It’s more and more seeming as if EESTOR may be on to something:
“A startup reports progress on a battery that stores more energy than lithium-ion ones.”
By Tyler Hamilton
A Texas startup says that it has taken a big step toward high-volume production of an ultracapacitor-based energy-storage system that, if claims hold true, would far outperform the best lithium-ion batteries on the market.
Dick Weir, founder and chief executive of EEStor, a startup based in Cedar Park, TX, says that the company has manufactured materials that have met all certification milestones for crystallization, chemical purity, and particle-size consistency. The results suggest that the materials can be made at a high-enough grade to meet the company’s performance goals, as well as withstand the extreme voltages needed for high energy storage, the company said in a press release last week.
“These advancements provide the pathway to meeting our present requirements,” Weir says. “This data says we hit the home run.”
EEStor claims that its system, called an electrical energy storage unit (EESU), will have more than three times the energy density of the top lithium-ion batteries today. The company also says that the solid-state device will be safer and longer lasting, and will have the ability to recharge in less than five minutes.
Full article at: http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/21171/
August 5th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Like most of the statements from GM, this one too leaves it to the reader to make suggested inferences. For example did he say GM plans to warrant the battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles? Nope He said they are trying to prove the battery will last that long and will protect the customer in that regard. In regard to battery life? That could be for any duration. We are asked to assume he was speaking specifically about the stated life.
Next, did he say they had internally chosen which supplier would get the production contract? It seems so, for he referred to “the selected chemistry” singular when two chemistries are still in the running as far as we know. Or was he speaking more broadly, lithium chemistry as contrasted with lead? Who knows?
August 5th, 2008 at 11:21 am
#64 Rashiid Amul
Firefox is so much better than Internet Explorer. The included dictionary is just one of the nice features. Plus, you can add a word to the dictionary when necessary. I use this feature all the time on this site. That is why I didn’t care for the spell checker provided by Lyle on the postings.
Now, Internet Explorer does have some features I like, too. But, I just prefer Firefox.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:25 am
On further thought, I don’t believe a 10 year warranty helps me.
I drive about 28,000 miles a year. That’s about 500+ miles a week.
That gives me less than 5.5 years for the 150,000 mile warranty.
I would like something better than that, but I certainly won’t hold my breath waiting for it.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I hope its not pro-rated………
August 5th, 2008 at 11:26 am
#67 Tagamet
Haven’t seen any E85 announcements from Toyota, but the market seems to be going that way in the U.S. Would not surprise me since it only cost “small change” to put in the necessary items to use E85 with any gasoline engine. Toyota is not dumb. They will follow along until some else defines and proves the technology (GM with E85) then adopt it without any pre-announcements. After that the press will swear it was Toyota’s design all along. Funny how that works.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:29 am
N. Riley. #70.
I use Firefox exclusively. Home and at work. I have “trained” the kids to use it as well. I love some of the easy plugins. As well as multiple tabs (IE 7 has multiple tabs as well). It cleans up cache, history, cookies, etc when I exit the browser. The spell check is a fantastic feature.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:30 am
>> This is good news.
…but no surprise.
The warranty was quite predicatable, knowing that CARB standards already require it for PZEV certification.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:32 am
For those who wanted V2G (vehicle-to-grid)…. this definitely rules it out unless you want to void your battery warrenty…
August 5th, 2008 at 11:34 am
#74 Rashiid Amul
I use Firefox on Windows and Linux. I encourage everyone to try it. It resides on my Windows PCs along side Internet Explorer with no problems. Internet Explorer doesn’t like it, but it grudgingly allows me to tell it to let Firefox be my browser of choice. I do find some government sites require I.E. to display properly. They have a pretty closed mind-set sometimes.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:36 am
#76 Jeff M
I seem to remember GM saying V2G was something they were discussing for future versions of the Volt type vehicles. So, maybe, maybe not.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:38 am
JeffM
I don’t think V2G was even contemplated until at least VOLT Version 2.0.
FIRST LET’S GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD!!
Be well,
Tag
August 5th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Rashiid #71: You may have to go with an extended warranty…..
August 5th, 2008 at 11:45 am
#32 Morgan
#64 Rashiid Amul
You guys stopping beating me up about my spelling, lol.
#44 Franky B:
“PS.: @ Statik, you really are the attention seaker, you should post more often in the forums. But again, less people would read you. At least on the last few posts you didn’t hack the main subject.”
Most of them time I honestly forget about them, I do go there from time to time.
Clearly my posts are meant to gain attention, however you should know I sustain my existence completely from internet stardom…I have yet to eat any solid matter since this site opened.
#19 Gsned57
“Even with this mornings err I’ll still be reading your posts and waiting for you to say “Today is the day I’m buying GM stock”. Because that day either GM is going to double or the world is going to end.”
I’m not saying it until I can guarantee both will happen concurrently.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:46 am
JimI@80,
extended warranty…..
/rant on
One of my biggest pet peeves! I’m from a time (long, long ago) when things were manufactured well enough to LAST THROUGH THE WARRANTY.
ARRRG. /rant off
Be well,
Tag
August 5th, 2008 at 11:56 am
On a serious note, I see some people are a little hestitate to believe GM could possibly rent/lease/service-contract (whatever they want to call a monthly payment). Ok, some people just flat out think it’s a pipe-dream.
As always, I’ll throw out a couple quotes/links to back up my position that it is a very real possibility, and we should probably do our best to discourage this option regardless if you agree with my angle or not.
““People won’t buy a full car. They will buy a car and rent or lease the battery and the cost of leasing the battery will be the same as, or less than, the cost they’re paying today for petrol.”–Nick Reilly, the President of General Motors Asia Pacific
http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/05/will-gm-lease-the-chevy-volt-battery-pack/
“…The report also notes “Lutz has said GM is exploring options that would allow consumers to lease the battery when buying the vehicle in order to bring down the sticker price.””
http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/
…and there is about a half dozen more just like it here that say pretty much the same thing. Clearly they are exploring it, hopefully in the end they won’t do it.
I think we all (at least 90% of us) can agree we want to own the Volt outright, and it really does not harm to voice a opinion on it from time to time.
(JEC–those links are for you, lol. “How many pairs of shoes does your wife have anyway?”–Joe Friday)
August 5th, 2008 at 11:56 am
#77 Riley
I still like IE7 because it works with all websites better. I downloaded IE7 Pro which gives me mouse gestures, spell checking, and some other things.
#68 DonC
I’d love if EEStor works out but I’m a doubting Thomas. I will believe it when I see it.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
#9:
“10 years on the battery is a good warranty but why 150,000 miles? If you drive 40 miles every day for 10 years it comes to about 146,000 miles. If you use the range extender to drive another 40 per day, you will reach the mileage limit in about 5 years. The mileage warranty on the battery should be for electric driving only.”
Just like if you drive more in a year with a car today, your warranty ends sooner than the “years” value, if you drive more and use the range extender, the battery is still undergoing charge, and still wearing out.
Basically put, if you drive 4x the amount another person does, your warranty is going to end 4x sooner. It doesnt make sense for yours to end at the exact same time, since you’ve used the same number of EV miles.
And my first thought was: cool! actual “news”! (though not too big a deal)
second though: ooh! a new photo of the drivetrain!
… oh wait.. thats the damn fuel cell one again.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I wonder why he is called Static…
August 5th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
83 Statik:
I am actually in the minority here. I am okay with leasing the battery. If it drives the cost of the vehicle down to where I could purchase it outright and the lease terms are reasonable. I am also fine with purchasing the battery with car as long as there was some infrastructure in place vis a vis battery disposal/resale.
Leasing, in my mind, takes a lot of the pressure of purchasing an “unproven” battery technology off of my financial decisions. I am simply renting instead of paying the early adopter premium and dealing with all the bugs on my own dime.
I don’t LIKE a monthly payment but I dislike the idea of paying 10,000 dollars or more for a new and likely buggy piece of technology more.
Given the volume numbers talked about though, and the unlikelihood of any significant volume of Volts being sold in Northern Indiana. I think the two mode hybrid VUE is for me until 2015 or so.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
#77 Riley. Try IE TAB. It is a plugin for Firefox. It inserts IE into a FireFox tab. When I have a similar problem that you have, I use this.
You can download it at:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419
August 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Okay 3rd time I am posting this. The first two disappeared.
I’ll try quotes around the URL this time.
————————
#77 Riley. Try IE TAB. It is a plugin for Firefox. It inserts IE into a FireFox tab. When I have a similar problem that you have, I use this.
You can download it at:
“https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419″
August 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
#84 Cautious Fan
“I’d love if EEStor works out but I’m a doubting Thomas. I will believe it when I see it.”
Thats the kind of pessimism we need around here.
Actually it is wise to have that attitude, especially when it comes to really bold claims. Like Zenn and EEStor claiming they will be producing a car together by fall of 2009…of course that was back in March…so tick tock fellas.
http://media.cleantech.com/2644/zenn-gearing-up-for-eestor-powered-car
EEStor kind of reminds me of the movie “The Saint.” You remember the one, where the good looking (naturally) US scientist has the “secret formula for cold fusion” and she can not only build it, but she do it in like 5 mins under pressure of death at the end of the film.
/hopefully its not just fiction…but I won’t count on this kind technology sitting in my driveway, even in the slightest, anytime soon
August 5th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I doubt they will be leasing, if they were the warranty would not be in effect. The fact that they ARE putting out an unusually good warranty seems to indicate that they are serious about using this to revitalize their bottom line. They will NOT be able to sell it, with their current reputation, unless they give more then their competitors to attract new and possibly anti-GM customers.
I think this is a good sign!
August 5th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Lets see..Talk about battery warranty but have selected a supplier or technology??
August 5th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
#84 Cautious Fan
“#77 Riley
I still like IE7 because it works with all websites better. I downloaded IE7 Pro which gives me mouse gestures, spell checking, and some other things.”
Variety is the spice of life and it is what makes the world go around. That’s why they make different versions of browsers. Not everyone will like the same. Happy browsing with I.E. It’s still a good product. Microsoft let it languish for awhile, but Firefox and the others finally got its attention.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
“challenges remain in proving the batteries will last 10 years and 150,000 miles, indicating for the first time publicly that GM plans to warranty that benchmark.”
Toyota ran into this in California and possibly some other states which have adopted that standard, which requires an AT-PZEV (Advanced Technology- Partial Zero Emission Vehicle) ( the current generation 3 Prius) emission standard to have a 10 year / 150,000 mile warranty on the battery. That’s why Prius does it, but only in those states that require it, or they can’t sell the car there. The remaining states have 8 years / 100,000 miles, for the same battery.
If this is why GM is talking about 10 / 150,000, I would think it would only apply to those few states. As a buyer, perhaps you would feel satisfied that, GM believes enough in the battery to offer that warranty, even if it applies to someone else?
August 5th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Nothing really to do with the thread, but might have some future indication of the Volt’s interior.
The new interior of the Chevy Cruze, looks kinda like the ’spy photos’ from the Volt thread earlier. Gives us probably a indication of the direction of Chevs in the future.
Cruze interior
http://thecarfanatic.com/wordpress/2008/08/02/chevrolet-cruze-interior-revealed/
Earlier Volt interior thread:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/05/chevy-volt-interior-spy-photo/
August 5th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
#83 Statik
I know how self-conscious you are about spelling errors. Here is one of yours that a spell checker wouldn’t catch; “…I see some people are a little hestitate to believe…”
August 5th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
It would seem that buying a Volt while leasing the battery would be an added complication for insurance companies and the owner of the Volt. I just do not like the idea of leasing the battery. Give us a realistic price that we can afford (some better than others, but isn’t that always the way?) and a decent warranty that provides dependable coverage for a set number of miles or years. Why not just miles and unlimited years?
I don’t want to buy a Volt and pay a lease fee that would about equal what I was paying each month on fuel costs. Part of the reasons for buying the Volt is to gain reduced costs through fuel cost savings. If you take that away you remove a very good reason to go with the Volt over, say, a Prius. Mark up another point in favor of the Prius.
Let’s see now. I buy the Volt. I lease the battery. I contract with an insurance company that adds additional charges because they are covering an expensive battery and they add another cost because the battery is leased. Now, each month I pay my monthly note on the Volt, send the lease fee in, and pay the insurance company. Every time I look at he lease fees and the additional fees for the insurance to cover a leased product, I grind my teeth and say, “Never again.”
Maybe some of you see it different?
August 5th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Sorry, but I’m growing rather weary of news tidbits regarding the Volt: I am ready to see the car itself . . .
August 5th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
To me, it comes down to $ and technology advances. If I own the battery, will I own an obsolete battery after a few years? Will a lease allow me to upgrade my battery cheaper? What would it cost me to go from a 40 AER to a 60 AER? In that case, would it be cheaper to buy or lease the 40 AER battery? Wait a minute! If almost all my driving is less than 40 miles per day, why trade up for a 60 AER? I’m good with owning.
I guess leasing allows people to have the latest and greatest (for a premium), if that is what they want. The buyer should have options for buying versus leasing.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
#94 Statik.
The Cruze looks like it has a manual transmission. I could consider it.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
#95 ThombDbhomb
“I know how self-conscious you are about spelling errors. Here is one of yours that a spell checker wouldn’t catch; “…I see some people are a little hestitate to believe…”
I know, I am really off my game today.
You remember the thread about the ‘next gen Prius’? Sure you do. Everyone taking the headlines as truth… and then commenting upon that assumption…well ‘most’ people did. This, despite the picture clearly being a old Prius with some new parts slapped on it.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/31/next-gen-prius-spotted-volt-wannabe/
Not so much with the facts I guess. Not only was it denied by Toyota over the weekend, but yesturday, yet another ‘mule’ was out spied testing a roof top solar panel.
The phrase out of the article, “This Prius with yards of black and white tape as a disguise is actually a test mule with the new front-end grafted onto the current body” is especially interesting.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-prius-2010.html
August 5th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
# 89 Statik - “EEStor kind of reminds me of the movie “The Saint.” You remember the one, where the good looking (naturally) US scientist has the “secret formula for cold fusion” and she can not only build it, but she do it in like 5 mins under pressure of death at the end of the film.”
LOL. But you overstate the case. Turn it around, leaving Zenn out of the equation. What motivation would EESTOR have to pump a product? Obviously the answer would be that while they have their C round from Kleiner Perkins they need more $ for production so they want to increase their valuation.
There isn’t anything unusual about this and it doesn’t strike me as a scam. Whether EESTOR works out or not I think Weir thinks he has something. If he didn’t, and he was really trying to run a scam, he wouldn’t be dealing with Kleiner, he’d be out hunting big angel funding from the golf course set.
I also note that the academic skeptics are sort of melting away. It’s hard to get someone with credentials to go on the record and say flat out that EESTOR’s approach won’t work. The only guy Hamiltion could get on the record was actually positive. Seems more real than it was a year or six months ago, and, contrary to your suggestion, the delay attributable to the Lockheed Martin deal doesn’t make it less so.
It’s always easier to debunk than to champion. Debunking seems more savvy and the fact is that most new things don’t work out, so it’s a safer choice. But I’m getting more optimistic about EESTOR. In a little while longer we’ll see.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
#99 Rashiid
“#94 Statik. The Cruze looks like it has a manual transmission. I could consider it.”
Personally, I like it. I like it alot. This is a good effort by GM.
(yes, feel free to screenshot that comment from me…see I’m not always a prickly rosebush, lol)
My friend has a Cobalt, and I was not impressed at all with it’s interior…this is a vast improvement in my opinion.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
#98 ThombDbhomb
Even if you purchase the Volt with the batteries as part of the cost, what is to prevent you from upgrading the batteries when it is offered, except cost, of course. If you leased the battery, you would still have additional cost to upgrade the batteries. Maybe for a smaller up front cost and another X number of years added to the battery lease. No, too many complications for me. Just let me buy it and if I want to ever upgrade it I will weigh the cost against the benefits.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
#103 N Riley
We agree.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Statik, I for one do not judge you based on your spelling. You provide helpful information on a subject dear to our hearts. Helpful skepticalism
is always better than gushing optimism. So, keep letting those words fall where they may.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
N Riley
Please don’t think I was denigrating Statik for any spelling errors when I mentioned his “hesitate.” He seems to have high standards when it comes to spelling and grammer. I thought he would appreciate knowing that an error slipped past him. I’m sure he will get back to his thorough self soon.
Statik elevates our discussion by providing substantive inputs and educated guesses.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Tag #82: “One of my biggest pet peeves! I’m from a time (long, long ago) when things were manufactured well enough to LAST THROUGH THE WARRANTY.”
An extended warranty is supposed to kick in AFTER the original warranty expires, so how is that a problem? If Rashiid drives more than 150K miles before the ten years has passed, he would then have the option to extend the warranty for a fixed fee. Or let it lapse and take his chances.
When I bought my Crossfire, it was a very early release, S/N 2476, and because of that I bought an extended warranty than increased it from 3 years/36K miles to 7 years/70K miles. It was not that expensive, and it gave me peace of mind. I have 5 years and 50K miles with the car, and as yet, I have not had any major problems. But it is nice to know that if the tranny drops out tomorrow, all I owe is a $100 co-pay.
It is basically a roll of the dice. I was betting the car would have problems. Chrysler was betting it would not…..
August 5th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Nasaman, I still fail to see this great redundancy you keep going on about, the definition of propulsion is propelling the car forward, neither the battery nor the ICE do that, the electric motor is what turns the wheels. If that breaks it doesn’t matter that you can get electricity from 2 different sources, you’re still stuck on the side of the road. And I don’t know where you drive, but most of the cars I see on the side of the road are stopped because of flat tires. So your comment of drivers never being stranded doesn’t make any sense to me. As far as I can tell I can get the same redundancy you are so excited about in my current ICE by keeping a full jerry can in the trunk.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080731143916.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715092602.htm
Hmmm……
August 5th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Eestor Bet
I am SOOO tired of Eestor. This is classic vaporware, and I am willing to put a bet on it in the classic tradition of scientific wagering.
Case of beer, winner choice of brand (from the North American Continent) if Eestor has a real, independently verifiable, delivered product for sale that has anything close (say 50% better than battery) to their claimed energy density specs by the end of June 2009. Beer to be delivered to winner’s door by man in a clown-suit.
First person to take this bet for Eestor on this forum will be considered. Let’s have less random re-posts of this hooey-factory that is out there trying to scam money with flimsy weekly press-releases. That and the random zero-energy, bubble-cold-fusion folks.
IUs there ANYONE teaching science classes in school anymore? Buehler, Buehler?
August 5th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
#106 ThombDbhomb
The thought did not enter my mind. I make plenty of verbal mistakes myself. Plus, a lot of mistakes best not discussed.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Has anybody here had a problem with their car radio or instrument panel in the recent past?
GM doesn’t fix these devices at the dealership, but instead uses an exchange program. A reconditioned part is obtained by the dealership and installed in the car, while the old part is sent back to be reconditioned.
I forsee a similar program for the Volt’s battery pack. With 200 to 300 cells, it is likely that there may be a cell failure here or there. The system is probably going to be configured to bypass these bad cells, and one or two cell failures will not constitute a bad battery pack.
However, if a significant number of these cells fail, you will be able to make a warranty claim on the battery pack. It is likely that GM will remove your battery pack in exchange for a “reconditioned” battery pack with 100% working cells. Your old pack will be sent to a GM center for overhaul.
This provides the customer with a 10 yr/150,000 mile battery pack warranty, however, it limits GM’s exposure to repair and overhaul, versus the outright purchase of a new battery pack.
Given the confidence we’ve seen from Bob Lutz regarding the batteries, I personally don’t see the battery pack warranty as a big problem for GM.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
#98 - You will probably have an obsolete and 5x or more expensive battery than what’s newly available the day you order your Volt, let alone actually purchase it.
More battery news:
http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=1073960
August 5th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
#109 Biodieseljeep
Boy, I wish I was brave enough to take up your bet. Sounds like it would be fun to see you delivering that beer. Or maybe even the other party. Hope you get some takers. And get some pictures.
I like the comment: “IUs there ANYONE teaching science classes in school anymore? Buehler, Buehler?”
August 5th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Look, I hate to rain on the parade here but Burns didn’t say 10 year/150K mile warranty. Burns said 10 year/150K LIFE.
What’s the “life” of an ICE? 200K Miles? 500K Miles? What’s the “life” of a transmission? 150K miles? 250K miles? The “life” of these things is very long. Who warrants any vehicle component for it’s “life?”
Burns said, “protect the customer.” Sure… from remarkably early failures. Don’t be surprised to find a much shorter warranty on the battery.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
#111 BillR
Seems likely you are correct in your opinion.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Hey Spin (and everyone else),
Having sold Honda’s for a living, I can tell you that the 10/150K warranty is not out of the goodness of GM’s heart, it is mandated by the State of California that a hybrid’s battery last 10yrs/100K. Outside of CA the warranty is 8yrs/70K miles.
Therefore to be able to sell the Volt ANYWHERE in the US the battery MUST last 8yrs/70K miles and this is a NON-PRORATED warranty. Unlike your ICE battery, if a hybrid battery fails the car company must replace it at no charge, not at some prorated price.
In fairness to GM for some reason they do add 50K miles to the warranty but that is marketing IMO. How many people drive 100K in ten years? And a bigger question is, to address many of the posts, how many people are going to keep their car, let alone a Volt for 10 years? I can’t imagine keeping a Volt longer then 4 years as the pace of improvment would make we want to trade it in for Volt 3.0!!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
#114 Please consider the following, from the article about Mr Burns:
“He strongly suggests GM will warrant the Volt’s battery to 150,000 miles or 10 years “
August 5th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
#111 Bill R
How would we know if cells failed? I guess a decrease in performance would tell us. How many cells would have to fail before we noticed a decrease in performance? 5%? 10%? For a 200 cell battery, that means 10 to 20 cells would have to fail. For a 300 cell battery, that means 15 to 30 cells would have to fail.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
5 Rashiid Amul,
11 Nasaman,
You say, “……..I would think the electric motor would be a no brainer, since I understand they don’t break.”
You’re both absolutely right. I had a Sears refrigerator still operating flawlessly after running 24/7 for 38 years!!!!! It died because the defrost timer failed.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
You know, this is AWESOME!!
Finally, solid stuff is coming from GM; they got the engine finalized,
got the battery finalized (as per selected battery chemistry) though they won’t tell us yet, they have the plant location finalized, and now they have warranty finalized!!
BTW, driving 15,000 Miles or 24,000 KM every year sounds about right for my driving habit. I’m a family guy with one car for everything (not rich enough for a 2nd car) who usually takes a road trip once a year. This will be perfect for an average joe like me =)
GO VOLT!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Could the Chevy Volt be morphing into the new concept version of the Opel Flextreme?
http://www.autoindia.com/AutoShow/AutoShowVeh.aspx?VehId=426
August 5th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
#118 Thom
Here is a quote from one of Lyle’s previous interviews with Continental,
“The controls that were developing do a few things. They’re primary function is all the hardware and software that monitors and controls the state of the battery. So it controls the state of charge, and the state of health of the battery and it will also help with the cell balance. So it will look at all the different cells, it takes very precise measurements on every single cell and then there are a series of calculations and then based on that it will do adjustments to make sure that all of the cells are balanced properly.”
Here is the link:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/12/interview-darryn-nowicki-electric-vehicle-director-continental-automotive-part-i/
If you do more research on the battery packaging (Lyle’s previous posts, perhaps back a year or so), you may find more info. I believe the system must monitor and control the battery pack. Obviously, if they are performing “precise measurements on every single cell”, then they will know which ones are defective and won’t take a charge.
To me, this comes down to a manufacturing quality issue. If the cells have a 5% failure rate, with 300 cells, 15 will fail. The replacement cells at the first warranty replacement will also subject to the 5% failure rate, so there will be only one failure in the 15 replacements.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
This is a off topic, but I hope GM’s engineers are doing some research on what systems they might need to add to the Volt so blind people, dogs, and little kids don’t get run over. The government might pass laws about this maybe. GM needs to be brainstorming about potential problems with the Volt right NOW while they are designing it. I came across this system by Lotus today that looks pretty good.
http://www.grouplotus.com/mediacentre_pressreleases/image/406.pdf
http://www.grouplotus.com/engineering/downloads/videos.html
It pretty much dynamically simulates the sounds of your typical IC engine car. It is computer controlled so the external engine sounds only happen at appropriate times instead of all the time …. such as at low speeds in parking lots, etc. I hope they make it so the volume level is always appropriate too. I don’t want to have MORE noise on the streets when I am a pedestrian than we have now. The world has enough “noise pollution” as it is.
I would also like to have the option of (adjustable volume) noise OR no noise INSIDE the cabin while I am driving. Lotus says that with their system, drivers and passengers won’t hear a thing while they are driving. It’s probably a good idea to have “optional interior engine noise” for people who might think it’s too weird to drive without some “engine feedback noise”. People could just change modes on a dash touch screen or whatever.
It’ll probably take 10 years for everyone to get used to electric cars that are so quiet. In 2020 or so, I bet people who’ve been driving electric cars for a few years will think it’s weird to drive an IC engine car because of that loud, annoying engine noise.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
“battery energy density will have to improve though before E-Flex cars larger than the Volt could emerge.”
Why not a 25-30 mile E-Flex Malibu and Aura, etc., using the Volt 40 mile Battery. Ok, they’ll need a little bigger ice.
Really! GM must replicate E-Flex ASAP, and not wait for new battery technology! Remember the expression, “Lead, follow, or get out of the way!”
August 5th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Thom 106
“Statik elevates our discussion by providing substantive inputs and educated guesses.”
Which makes up for his use of what must be the Canadian spellings of “its” and “it’s”!
August 5th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Hmmm… with a 10 year warranty, I’d almost hope that my battery dies about 9 years into ownership, so I get a new battery for another 10 years of use. Realistically, the cost of batteries at that time will be so low that it will be a non-issue when it comes to replacement part costs.
And I’ve mentioned this in a previous post: The battery is rated to put out enough juice for 40 miles, and only 50% of the charge capacity is used. As the battery gets older, there could be a self-calibration feature that over time uses 55%, 60%, and eventually 100% of the capacity to get the 40 miles. That way, the battery could have the same distance rating after 10 years.
Okay, I’ve done my part of being an armchair quarterback, er, uh, engineer.
August 5th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
13. Nuclearboy
I agree. I want the E-Flex powertrain to be flexible in all sorts of ways. I’d like the batteries on the Volt to be fairly easy to work on so mechanics could take out the original battery and put in a newer, higher capacity one.
It would be great if they designed the Volt so it could use ANY kind of battery chemistry too. Maybe they can make it so some future exotic silicon nanowire lithium ion battery will work just as well as the original Volt battery … only it would get maybe 100+ miles of all electric range (hopefully). People might want to trade in their original battery for a new one. I have noticed that my rechargeable nickle metal hydride portable batteries don’t work on some devices like this old tape player I had. You have to use the damn throwaway alkaline batteries.
Bottom line, I’d like to see the systems for the Volt be “future-proofed” so that you can use “new and improved batteries” as they come along. If the “new and improved batteries” available in 2014 have compatibility problems with the control systems and software, maybe GM will have the Volt designed so it is FLEXIBLE with firmware and all that. When you get the “new and improved batteries” in 2014 or whenever, your GM dealer’s mechanic would know that he needs to update the Volt with new firmware and other software for the control system, etc.
This could be VERY important down the road. GM better make sure they design the Volt with UPGRADEABILITY in mind … batteries, control systems … all that kind of stuff.
August 5th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Jack Says:@108
“Nasaman, I still fail to see this great redundancy you keep going on about, the definition of propulsion is propelling the car forward, neither the battery nor the ICE do that, the electric motor is what turns the wheels”
**********************************************************
The electric motor is probably the less likely item to go bad in the powertrain. So with this in mind, what is the most likely scenario that could keep you from getting off the highway to a safe place? That would be running out gas with a discharge battery. What Nasaman means, I think, is that if you run out of fuel even when the battery is at it lowest charge point (30%), the computer will see that as an emergency and will allow you to get to a safe place using the 30% battery reserve. Nasaman explained this well on a previous post.
August 5th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I think I have seen three chemistries mentioned, two from LG and one from A123.
One of the LG chemistries was suitable for a 20 mile volt I seem to remember.
There may be several uncertainties with the reliability of the batteries but one was “the tabs” mention by both Bob and the knowledgeable contributor on A123 RC batteries…yes…that one…
Anyway, I have a novel idea..or is that novell….anyway,… why could’nt we build smaller batteries and strap them together with copper bar like we did in the old days!
Have a happy day!
August 5th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
#105 N Riley
#106 ThombDbhomb
Kind words. Both of your ‘cheques’ are in the mail.
#125 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy
“Thom 106: Statik elevates our discussion by providing substantive inputs and educated guesses”
–Which makes up for his use of what must be the Canadian spellings of “its” and “it’s”!
Thats it! No ‘check’ for you!
August 5th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
16. Nuclearboy
Actually, the “Saving GM” program is on CNBC … the financial news network.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/25921075
They talk a lot about energy