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Continental AG Moving Towards Lithium-ion Cell Production

August 3rd, 2008 | Posted in: Battery

Continental AG is the German supplier who is working with A123 Systems as one team competing to build the Chevy Volt’s battery pack for GM.

We were told in June of 2007 that one of the two battery pack supplier teams (Conti/A123 vs CPI/LG Chem) would be selected this summer. No word yet, but a report out of the Guardian indicates Continental is aiming to expand their lithium ion battery business soon.

They have also been selected to supply Daimler-Benz with lithium ion packs.

The report indicates Continental is apparently planning to develop their own cell-production capacity in addition to their current role as integrating cells of other companies into packs.

The company is so far working with both A123 and JCI/Saft but at some point will pick a single company either to acquire or partner with.

Last month the company took a 16% stake in lithium-battery company Enax.

Indeed Continental’s multi-billion dollar lithium-ion electric future appear so bright that it is likely one of the reasons German ball-bearing maker Schaeffler has made a hostile bid to acquire them.

With A123 System’s IPO reportedly in the works for September, and speculation about GM planning its own battery production in-house, we appear to be on the verge of some major jockying for position.

Source (Guardian )

Popularity: 6%

(5 votes, average: 5 out of 5)

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Posted by: Lyle

92 Responses to “Continental AG Moving Towards Lithium-ion Cell Production”

Dick G. Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:23 am

How much will the Volt battery pack weigh ???
Exp_EngTech Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:39 am

Go Continental ! ! !

In case you didn’t know, they purchased Siemens VDO recently.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/28/business/conti.php

They have a facility about 8 miles from me that is underutilized (they’ve been trying to rent out some of the extra space). An engineer friend of mine was hired there about 15 months ago. I’m waiting to hear some good news about this place gearing up.

If I hear anything about Continental, I’ll pass it on here.
omegaman66 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:58 am

Remember the movie “Field of Dreams”. Demand will not be met in the coming years. The ALL should be gearing up.
BillR Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:08 am

I’ve heard rumors that Continental may provide the electric drive for the Volt. Here is some more info from their website:

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/cas/cas/themes/products/electric_drives/hybrid_drives/0_hybrid_drives_introduction_2006_en.html

Be sure to check out some of the links at the bottom of the page, good info on hybrid systems and also a history with GM.

I remember a recent video interview with Bob Lutz, and he mentioned that although a battery supplier hadn’t been chosen, that certainly there was less risk with one versus the other.

If Continental is supplying the drivetrain, than it would entail less risk to also let them supply the battery pack. Then if electric drive issues arise, GM can have one supplier take responsibility for the entire system. With a split order, when issues arise, you always get into a pissing contest between the suppliers, one claiming the battery pack is at fault, the other claiming the powertrain is at fault.

I’m sure we will know more in the near future.
Red HHR Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:43 am

Ground breaking…

What a Charge!!!

Red HHR
Arch Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:51 am

I am tired of all the excuses. Just build the darn thing. I think GM
is just stringing us all along. They want all the PR this car can get
for them. Not the car itself. JMHO

Take Care
Arch
Morgan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:06 am

4 BillR:

Its certainly possible they could go with Continental but, you have to bear in mind that GM actually has been building electric drive trains for quite a long time through Allison Transmission.
LyleL Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:24 am

#6 Arch

I understand where you’re coming from. Check out my forum post.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9229#post9229
Watch the first video link about the Impact. Read the test drive of an EV1 with NiMH batteries by Kris Trexler. People say the EV1 was impractical, and just a bad car. When I go searching the web and find the first hand accounts of people who leased the car, they’re not bad reviews at all. People complain about the range, the Kris Trexler Gen 2 NiMH review shows the range was great. It would certainly work very well for my commute to work and short trips. Why say all of this, I guess it’s because I waffle back and forth wondering if GM is really going to try their best. When you watch the Videos, GM showed great enthusiasm, yet the project was totally killed. Listen closely to the Impact video and one of the interviewed people imply the electric car could last 2-3 times longer than a conventional car. I’m still thinking the auto manufacturers are tormented by the thought of electrics…they will work for a lot of people and it will affect car replacement sales and maintenance service sales.

It’s maddening to read about people owning Rav4e with NiMH packs that are working very well. This proves that something can be done now (or a few years ago) and that there should already be electrics on the road, the Rav4e survived (one of the few) showing it’s possible.

Oh, the insanity of it all…

[brrrrring] There’s my reminder alarm, it’s time for my meds, now where is that partially chewed lithium battery.
Ernie V Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:16 am

should i buy continental stocks now >
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:28 am

It doesn’t matter to me who owns the battery makers.
I just want the Volt made.

But if GM makes the batteries in house, they will have more control over the supply. This might be a good thing.
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:39 am

#1 Dick G — We’ve been told the battery will weigh 400 to 600 pounds (various weights at various times).
Exp_EngTech Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:40 am

Sorry to change the subject.

I just watched a hilarious segment on Microcars on The CBS Sunday Morning Show. It starts with the Smart Car and then….

If you haven’t seen this, here it is on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp6JalC5yH0

ENJOY !
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 am

#6 Arch

Please stay cool. Everything remains fairly close to the original schedule.

Let’s see what actually happens over the next 2 months insofar as a battery contract.
Cautious Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:06 am

#8 Lyle

I agree with you concerns about the auto companies unsure about all electric, but I’m less pessimistic. Once the technology is there, if GM doesn’t pursue it, they’ll go belly up because Tata will, or Toyota, or Tesla. With the free market, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can’t put it back in. If all the existing firms try, then a new firm like Tesla will pop-up and build them. I’ve never been excited about electrics but I am now because I believe the technology has finally arrived and if GM doesn’t tap it, someone else will.
wwskinn3 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:13 am

Has anybody found a STOCK SYMBOL for any of those companies?

It would be nice to own some stock in one of the battery companies and let the profit (after they start delivery) pay for my volt. I was not able to find an actual stock symbol for any of them. Perhaps they are not public traded. Anybody have any info?
charley497 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:23 am

off topic, I just checked I’m 384 on the wait list. I know, who cares.
Tagamet Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 am

wwskinn3@15
The article said that the IPO may be in Sept.
HTH,
Tag
PS Is it just my connection, or has the site slowed down significantly?
Biodieseljeep Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 am

Listening to the net
Alt-fuel message comes in clear
Where is the Statik?
GM Volt Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:51 am

What I particularly like about the Guardian article is the last paragraph:

“But he believes the technology could trace a similar development once charted by antilock brakes that cost hundreds of euros before eventually becoming standard feature for cars.

“The learning process and economies of scale will certainly allow us to CONSIDERABLY reduce the cost of manufacturing the batteries,” Neumann said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7689369

I like that adjective CONSIDERABLY a lot. Bob Lutz has said that he thinks batteries prices will go down a lot also once the economies of scale kick in. This is NOT good news if you are Big Oil fatcat executive in the next 10 years or a Middle East oil shiek.

As far as cost of the Volt goes, I think one target that GM should try to focus on is “bang for the buck” … as compared to other hybrid cars like the Prius. In particular, the “Sticker + Lifetime Fuel + Maintenance + Taxes”.

I think that if GM can get the sticker price to be around $35,000 or less (with generous tax breaks), the Volt could be a “no brainer” … even for the people that like to crunch numbers and save the most money in their personal transportation budget.

With the Volt sticker priced at $35,000 that is just ONE of the costs of owning the car. There’s the price of fuel, maintenance, car insurance, depreciation, taxes, emissions, etc. Don’t underestimate resale value … that could be a key selling point for the Volt. By 2013 or so, I bet you could see the Volt drop in price to $30,000 … if the batteries go down in price. I bet the latest Prius with lithium ion batteries will cost around the same in 2013.

People will buy the Volt for other reasons besides cost anyway. If you want a super small, light car with 0-60 in 12 seconds you can get a Yaris or something. That’s not enough performance for a lot of people. The Volt might go 0-60 in 7-8 seconds, it will be very quiet, it shows the owner cares about energy independence and the environment, revolutionary, new powertrain technology, etc.

Hopefully, people will buy it simply because it “looks cool” and their friends will be impressed. I bet a lot of people might buy the Volt just so they put a bumper sticker on it that says “Take THIS Big Oil and OPEC … your worst nightmare … the Chevy Volt”. I’m sure some people will want to put one that says “Osama Bin Laden Hates This Car” like ex-CIA chief James Woolsey has on the back of his converted plug-in Prius.

People buy cars for all kinds of reasons besides just cost. The Chevy Volt ought to be a bit of a prestige car around town when it first comes out. It’ll get people’s attention. You might see people smiling at you and giving you a “thumbs up” as you drive around town. It might even be a real “chick magnet” kind of car for real. The ladies will want to test drive this new kind of car and you could get their phone number so she can drive it again on future dates. Hopefully, there will be adequate room in the back seat.

Anyway …. if the Volt can get to have a “Sticker + Lifetime Fuel” cost of around $40,000 or so, it could be a VERY compelling car for a lot of people … IF the car salesman can explain it properly to customers in the showroom. The reason why it could be $40,000 is because if you plug in the Volt every night diligently, you might only need to buy 4-5 tankfulls of gasoline per year … E85 is better for our energy independence though.

People might only need to buy 40-50 gallons of gasoline/E85 per year. That’s only $160-200 a YEAR @ $4/gal. Maintenance should be minimal. You might only need to get your tires rotated once a year and regular maintenance at the dealer every 2 years.

Who knows, maybe the local governments will give you breaks on vehicle taxes and emission inspection fees for the first 5-10 years that cars like the Volt are on the road. They should definitely do something about emission inspection fees since the Volt will help the environment a LOT. Again, EVERYONE is better off the sooner electric cars like the Volt are on the road.

I think it would be AWESOME and a very good idea if the big auto insurance companies like Allstate gave new Volt owners a nice 10-20% discount on their auto insurance for the first 5 years that the Volt is on the market. The insurance companies could get a lot of good publicity and “green cred” if they did this. They’d be doing America a good deed by helping us kick our addiction to oil. They’d get a lot of goodwill from people who want to help us with our oil addiction, energy independence, the environment, etc.

GM, other car companies and politicians ought to be talking with car insurance companies to see if they can do this. There’s a LOT of incentives that could be put in place to help get people who are “on the fence” about buying a Volt to go ahead and do it … by the private sector and the government. In the long run, the whole country is better off if we can beat our addiction to oil as quickly as possible. Just ask T. Boone Pickens … the oil billionaire from Texas.
GM Volt Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:58 am

What I particularly like about the Guardian article is the last paragraph:

“But he believes the technology could trace a similar development once charted by antilock brakes that cost hundreds of euros before eventually becoming standard feature for cars.

“The learning process and economies of scale will certainly allow us to CONSIDERABLY reduce the cost of manufacturing the batteries,” Neumann said.

I like that adjective CONSIDERABLY a lot. Bob Lutz has said that he thinks batteries prices will go down a lot also once the economies of scale kick in. This is NOT good news if you are Big Oil
fatcat executive in the next 10 years or a Middle East oil shiek.

As far as cost of the Volt goes, I think one target that GM should try to focus on is “bang for the buck” … as compared to other hybrid cars like the Prius. In particular, the “Sticker + Lifetime Fuel + Maintenance + Taxes”.

I think that if GM can get the sticker price to be around $35,000 or less (with generous tax breaks), the Volt could be a “no brainer” … even for the people that like to crunch numbers and save the most money in their personal transportation budget.

With the Volt sticker priced at $35,000 that is just ONE of the costs of owning the car. There’s the price of fuel, maintenance, car insurance, depreciation, taxes, emissions, etc. Don’t underestimate resale value … that could be a key selling point for the Volt. By 2013 or so, I bet you could see the Volt drop in price to $30,000 … if the batteries go down in price. I bet the latest Prius with lithium ion batteries will cost around the same in 2013.

People will buy the Volt for other reasons besides cost anyway. If you want a super small, light car with 0-60 in 12 seconds you can get a Yaris or something. That’s not enough performance for a lot of people. The Volt might go 0-60 in 7-8 seconds, it will be very quiet, it shows the owner cares about energy independence and the environment, revolutionary, new powertrain technology, etc.

Hopefully, people will buy it simply because it “looks cool” and their friends will be impressed. I bet a lot of people might buy the Volt just so they put a bumper sticker on it that says “Take THIS Big Oil and OPEC … your worst nightmare … the Chevy Volt”. I’m sure some people will want to put one that says “Osama Bin Laden Hates This Car” like ex-CIA chief James Woolsey has on the back of his converted plug-in Prius.

People buy cars for all kinds of reasons besides just cost. The Chevy Volt ought to be a bit of a prestige car around town when it first comes out. It’ll get people’s attention. You might see people smiling at you and giving you a “thumbs up” as you drive around town. It might even be a real “chick magnet” kind of car for real. The ladies will want to test drive this new kind of car and you could get their phone number so she can drive it again on future dates. Hopefully, there will be adequate room in the back seat.

Anyway …. if the Volt can get to have a “Sticker + Lifetime Fuel” cost of around $40,000 or so, it could be a VERY compelling car for a lot of people … IF the car salesman can explain it properly to customers in the showroom. The reason why it could be $40,000 is because if you plug in the Volt every night diligently, you might only need to buy 4-5 tankfulls of gasoline per year … E85 is better for our energy independence though.

People might only need to buy 40-50 gallons of gasoline/E85 per year. That’s only $160-200 a YEAR @ $4/gal. Maintenance should be minimal. You might only need to get your tires rotated once a year and regular maintenance at the dealer every 2 years.

Who knows, maybe the local governments will give you breaks on vehicle taxes and emission inspection fees for the first 5-10 years that cars like the Volt are on the road. They should definitely do something about emission inspection fees since the Volt will help the environment a LOT. Again, EVERYONE is better off the sooner electric cars like the Volt are on the road.

I think it would be a very good idea if the big auto insurance companies like Allstate gave new Volt owners a nice 10-20% discount on their auto insurance for the first 5 years that the Volt is on the market. The insurance companies could get a lot of good publicity and “green cred” if they did this. They’d be doing America a good deed by helping us kick our addiction to oil. They’d get a lot of goodwill from people who want to help us with our oil addiction, energy independence, the environment, etc.

GM, other car companies and politicians ought to be talking with car insurance companies to see if they can do this. There’s a LOT of incentives that could be put in place to help get people who are “on the fence” about buying a Volt to go ahead and do it … by the private sector and the government. In the long run, the whole country is better off if we can beat our addiction to oil as quickly as possible. Just ask T. Boone Pickens … the oil billionaire from Texas.
jan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 am

#14
If battery life and a long lasting electric autos are of concern to auto manufacturers than a different business model will probably surface. A global business model, I would think. Kind of surprising GE hasn’t bought into this market although they are invovled with A123. Very interesting times and that is why we are on this board, because it is bigger than the Volt and even bigger than GM or the USA. But probably not bigger than GE. What was that quote the other day from Edison about electric cars? Note to self: must read-up on Edison.
JEC Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:39 am

#12 Exp_EngTech

What a stitch!

I like the ability to drive into your local grocery store…
Joe Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:43 am

Rashiid Amul@10

“But if GM makes the batteries in house, they will have more control over the supply. This might be a good thing.”

***********************************************************

Also, if GM has a superior battery over the competitors and has a patent for it, it makes a lot of sense to make the battery in house. They could make a lot of money selling it to other companies.
Statik Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:51 am

#18 Biodieseljeep
“Where is the Statik?”

Just lurking.

That last thread was just about the worst thread ever. I don’t know what the heck happened…so much mis-information, juvenile rants, cheerleading/dark-clouding.

I just felt like sitting back and watching the car wreck I guess (who doesn’t? Or a high speed chase?

…my indifference has apparently spread into today’s thread as well.

After all it’s a long weekend here –Civic Holiday monday, so I’m due to kick back for once. (Random Canadian holidays of absolutely no significance rule!)
George K Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:56 am

#12 Exp_EngTech

LOL!
Joe Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm

After thinking some more about GM making their own battery, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is almost a must for them to do so. Internal combustion engines provides car manufactures with lots of income selling engines and engine parts. With electric motors replacing the ICE, breakdowns will rarely occur which will grossly affect the engine parts business. For those who don’t know, an electric motor rated as “continuous duty” can run for years and years without any breakdown. An electric powered car could run almost forever and with that, I believe the battery will be the major item to fail most often. It would be wise for GM to get a head start and manufacture batteries to make up for the lost of engines and engine parts to electrically powered cars.
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Statik #23 says,

(Random Canadian holidays of absolutely no significance rule!)

——
Lucky you. We here in the States have to work and work.
Europe pretty much gets August off. We work and work.
Some people are lucky to get 1 week vacation a year. Many start with two weeks and have to work 10 years to earn 3 weeks.
In Germany, my understanding is that a worker gets 6 weeks when they start a job. That is awesome.

“Salary exempt” is the best. Companies can make a person work 60 -70 hours a week, while only paying for 40.
My personal opinion is that American employers do their best to make the top people rich (GM is no exception), while completely screwing the worker bees.

Now, how was that for being totally off topic?
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm

#17 Tag

Site has slowed down considerably for me, too. Long delays on every refresh now.
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Joe # 22 says,

Also, if GM has a superior battery over the competitors and has a patent for it, it makes a lot of sense to make the battery in house. They could make a lot of money selling it to other companies.

–
Yup. And they can keep improving it as much as possible themselves.
Also, a standardized battery would be a bad idea at this time because improvement would be more difficult to make.
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Tag #17 and RB #27

The site was real slow all last week.
Ironically, it seems quite fast today.
Tagamet Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:06 pm

RB and Rashid,
Maybe the site is getting SOOOO popular that it’s lagging the system. Thanks for the feedback.
Be well,
Tag
Cautious Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Joe #22

I suspect that GM doesn’t have too many patents on battery tech. They’re jumping into a mature market with some big players who’ve been spending lots of money on R&D.

I think GM should outsource detailed battery development and focus on integration. Technology is changing quickly. To bring chemistry development inhouse risks backing the wrong horse. Once battery tech settles down and becomes more standard, GM could consider bringing it in house so they can better control costs, though a supplier might be cheaper if they use non-union labor.
GM Volt Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm

26. Rashid Amul

Gotta admit, the countries in Europe are a worker’s paradise compared to the U.S. Americans are worker bees alright. I always thought that the idea in life is to be happy. I saw this “60 Minutes” episode that said that Denmark is the “happiest country on Earth”. It was interesting. The young people especially seem to be pretty darned happy to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shepBx2ogJo

The rich people in Denmark like their system as well as the middle class folks do. How do you explain that? I guess their rich people are more like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett …. the two richest people in America. Both of those guys support the Democrat party … especially Warren Buffett. They’re not supposed to do that are they?

They are going to give away almost all of their money to various charities when they die. That’s Bill Gates’ main job these days. At age 50 or so, he doesn’t do much at Microsoft anymore. He’s working on his charities for AIDS in Africa, vaccines for poor people everywhere, etc. That’s kind of … er, liberal. Horrible for them to do liberal stuff like that isn’t it? They should be extreme capitalists trying to pile up more wealth into their personal portfolio til the day they die shouldn’t they?
JEC Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:34 pm

I really think the postings are becoming stale because much of what needs to be said, has been said.

About all that’s left are postings from new visitors, re-hashing an old subject, or various rants and raves about this and that.

I think most people on this site are ready for some real news, like
1- A firm production date
2- A firm price and what, if any govt subsidies would be provided (US, cause we are the only ones that count ).
3- Estimate units to be available.
4- Who is first in line? Is the waiting list just a dream, or will GM actually honor it? I am guessing there will be a lot of greasing of palms going on for the first few thousand, or so.
5- Real mpg on the ICE
6- Real life AER numbers.
7- A final production pic (I personally could give two shits about the looks, but I understand many do care, so lets walk this girl down the aisle for all to see).
8- A lottery for us poor soles who have not got a chance in heck to get our hands on one.
9- Battery supplier name and cost/KWhr.
10- Winner of the upcoming election (well, it does not hurt to ask)

This CBU really wants a VOLT!
JEC Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:38 pm

31 Cautious Fan

I am thinking along the same lines. Let GM concentrate on the many other details, and worry about acquisitions of battery tech later. As you said, battery tech is very fluid right now, and who knows what will be the winning chemistry.
JEC Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm

32 GM Volt Fan

I would agree with the assesment that Denmark people are relatively happy.

I worked for a Danish-based company in the US. I made several trips to Denmark for business. The thing that struck me the most, was going into a meeting, everyone was so relaxed and open. No one seemed to be looking to grandstand and pressure decisions onto others. While you might think this would lead to people sitting back and taking the easy out, I discovered that they appeared to take more pride in their work. They worked shorter hours, 36 hours/wk, and yes they got 6 weeks vacation starting. Not only that, but they got most of August off for holidays! This was about 12 years ago, and I know even at that time they were under pressure to follow a more Americanized work schedule. So, not sure how much has change since.

Other tidbits I noticed in Denmark:
1) They take time off to go to the Doctor, and don’t have to ask.
2) Most people biked to work (climate is more mild, at least than WI)
3) Most families owned 1 car (small). Having a 2nd car was a luxury.
4) The food was not so good (We really have it good in the US compared to most countries). But this would be a more personal opinion, and I am a rather picky eater.
5) They had beer in the vending machines at work! Now, being from WI, I can really appreciate this.
6) Most people speak english (probably not suprising, right?)
7) The rental cars were Mercedes.

Sorry to go off topic, but like I said in earlier post, we seem to running out of meaty topics.
GM Volt Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm

35. JEC

Yep. Interesting stuff. The hardcore capitalists in America would be horrified if stuff like in Denmark happen here. Workers aren’t supposed to be all that happy. They’re just supposed to be good “cogs in the machine” and help the bottom line profits. Workers who are happy in their jobs? Heresy.

If workers look like they might be enjoying their jobs, the boss will pile up more work for them to do. Bossman might be able to lay off another person if he has a hardcore worker bee with no life at his company. He can get that worker bee to do the work of 2 people! More profits. Bigger executive bonus for bossman! That’s how it is in America at a lot of companies.
Tagamet Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm

GM Volt Fan,
…The rich people in Denmark like their system as well as the middle class folks do. How do you explain that? I guess their rich people are more like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett …. the two richest people in America. Both of those guys support the Democrat party … especially Warren Buffett. They’re not supposed to do that are they?

That’s because there are only 6 rich people in Denmark. (g)
Be well,
Tag
N Riley Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Well another ho hum day for us and I see many more days just like this one. It is a long time before the end of 2010 and we see some Volts on the street. Ho hum.
Jim I Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:45 pm

So much to comment on…………..

Arch #6: It seems to us on this site like it is taking forever, but as long as a delivered Volt is available by Nov, 2010, then GM met the timeline they promised. That is still a fairly aggressive timeline for the development, testing, and assembly of a totally new type of vehicle.

LyleL #8: Did you ever talk to an EV-1 owner from northeastern Ohio, or anywhere else other than CA or AZ? No. Because that is the only place they were ever sold. The Volt , on the other hand, should even work for Statik up in the wild and freezing land of Canada! As has been mentioned many other times on this site, it is time to let the EV-1 rest in peace, and look toward the future….

GM Volt Fan #19: A long post & I agree with most of what you said, except for two things:

1. State & Local governments are probably going to RAISE taxes on electric vehicles to compensate for lost fuel taxes to maintain roads. Don’t ever underestimate their ability to get into our wallets…

2. Insurance companies hate risk, and anything totally new is a risk to them, so do not expect to see low insurance rates out of the starting gate.

Statik #23: I kept out of the last couple of threads for exactly the same reasons…. It does seem there are a lot of newbies that do not want to do any research! But on the other hand, Lyle’s post about comparisons to the Prius did invite Prius owners to jump in with both feet.

Joe #25: Is GM really in the position to go into a totally new business at this particular time, or does it make more sense to just buy the battery packs from an estabished company? I guess only time will tell on that one.

Rashid #26 & others: Some of us evil employers don’t completely screw the worker bees!!! Good wages and working conditions, health benefits, retirement plans, paid holidays, and reasonable paid time off benefits are still available by employers, contrary to what the TV and newspaper press have to say. It is necessary to get good employees. But more times than I like to think about, the worker bees use us to gain knowledge, and then jump ship without warning to compete against us, so yes, sometimes we are a bit wary… As I have said before, it is a very different view from the managment side of the table, and unless you have been in that seat, it is very hard to understand!

Now my post got long too.. Sorry.
Toyota Winglet Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Toyota just announced a new battery-powered personal transporter. This may soon revolutionize personal travel as we know it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,396261,00.html
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:19 pm

What else is new? Just a short while ago we heard the CEO of CPI state that the Mules were running with his packs at about the same time that Lutz confirmed that they had already decided that one company was less risky.

This is just another bone, we won’t know until it’s announced.
Joe Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Toyota Winlet@40

From your name I know you must like Toyota. In case you don’t know,Toyota is only doing what they do best,copying….. and this time they are doing it to Segway.
wwskinn3 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:28 pm

How about they release the Volt somewhere besides California. Seems like they always get first chance. Hell, we travel further to jobs and home here in Texas. We need it too.
Koz Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Toyota Winglet #40

KNOCKOFF!!!
bruce g Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm

seems to me the battery business is going the way of the personal computer, new players, existing players looking for new combinations..its got to be good.
It may not fit GM’s traditional supplier model but GM, its too late to hesitate..
voltman Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:38 pm

“off topic, I just checked I’m 384 on the wait list. I know, who cares.”

How did you check?
canehdian Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:58 pm

#40, Jim
“The Volt , on the other hand, should even work for Statik up in the wild and freezing land of Canada!”

Yeah, it might work.. but its much harder to get power outlets installed in our igloos than you might think!
MarkFLL Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Voltman:

“off topic, I just checked I’m 384 on the wait list. I know, who cares.”

How did you check?

Go to the wait list join page and update your information. This will tell you your number. I’m #1800.
Lurtz Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Autobloggreen: Saab puts 9-X Biohybrid production development on hold

“…the car was built on GM’s Global Compact Car (Delta) architecture which also underpins the Chevrolet Cruze”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/03/saab-puts-9-x-biohybrid-production-development-on-hold/
Marcus R (WL# 5275) Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Watched the planet green special with the \VOLT last night. Nothing really new, but it was all fairly current and pretty accurate. My enthusiasm is still quite high, but I’m ready to see the production model now. Should we do another \VOLT Nation event at January’s Detroit Auto show?
N Riley Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:04 pm

I think GM should leave the battery manufacturing to other parties. Do research in conjunction with a company or companies, but stay out of the expense of owning the facilities. Unless they know a lot more than we do.
Len Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm

If the people in Denmark are happy and there are only 6 rich people, maybe they have learned there is more to life than counting money.

People are not interchangable cogs and the companys that act as they are will not have loyal employees. Unfortunately some business school came up with the short sighted thinking scheme - management is all that counts - about thirty years ago and American manufacturing has been in decline since. Management has outsourced everything but their jobs.

GM would do well to let the scientists do the battery innovation. Todays winner will be tomorrows has been.

Yes we need some Volt news.
hc1124 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:18 pm

Both Japan and Germany are leaders in major global production of inverters (Germany) and PV panels (Japan). It does not surprise me re Germany on batteries.

As a 5th year grid-tie guy with PG&E in CA, the Germany LI battery technology may well be on the move.

My “Sunny Boy” SMA inverters and panels from Japan (Sharp & Sanyo) give PG&E and myself the best, reliable 4.6 kwh solar power in partial fog to date.

My dedicated circuit is ready for the Volt.
Ryan P Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:28 pm

Don’t know where to post this:

CNBC WILL BE SHOWING A 1 HR DOCUMENTARY “SAVING GENERAL MOTORS” FEATURING BOB LUTZ, ON WEDNESDAY, 10 PM, WHICH WILL MENTION THE VOLT.
!!!!!!!
Arch Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:54 pm

#53 Len Yes we need some Volt news.

Len

I agree! Look at what we are getting.

GM CEO: “People Will be Lined up to Get Into This Kind of Vehicle”

Ford: Mass Production of Plug-in Electric Cars at Least 5 Years Away

Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?

EEStor Announces Third Party Verification of Key Production Milestone

No to Beat But Yes to Trax or Groove: GM US Subcompact Within 2 Years
————————————————————————————-

For me I want to hear how the Volt is doing on the track. How are the batteries holding up? What kind of mileage is that new 1.4 engine getting? What kind of problems are they having with the systems. I do not care about Ford or Toyota I want to know how the Volt is doing in development! What are the problems what are the milestones? Whats going well and what is not? Maybe I am just to attached to this idea.

Take Care
Arch
ThombDbhomb Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Lyle: In addition to T-Shirts,Bumper Stickers, and Bumper Magnets, can you offer the Lutz tie?
Statik Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 pm

#57 ThombDbhomb

“Lyle: In addition to T-Shirts,Bumper Stickers, and Bumper Magnets, can you offer the Lutz tie?”

I would be so all over that. I haven’t worn a tie in ages, but I could so start again.

Just imagine us all showing up at the Detroit autoshow with one of those badboys on for the Volt debut.

(Naturally I would assume Lutzie would be wearing his…as he breaks it out for all the big events…I think we can safely assume Bob is NOT one of the people reading this ‘fansite,’ as that tie would have been long ago burned..or donated to Lyle).
Plug Free Volt Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm

Gee, what a surprise…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/03/chevron-drains-battery-planned-for-mercedes-ml-450-hybrid-merce/
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Koz #45

” Toyota Winglet #40

KNOCKOFF!!! ”

*** *** ***

Aren’t you being a bit harsh? After all, it appears that Toyota’s design appears to have an innovative little errrr “garage” or “car port” on the front for your shoes. Either that, or it’s a jet engine intake. Aint’ that sumpin?
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:46 pm

#50 Lurtz Interesting item on new Saab postponed

Is this hold a sign of the tight budgets at GM?
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:47 pm

#51 Marcus — VoltNation at the unveiling in Detroit.

We know the unveiling will be at Detroit, because Statik told us
Yes. VoltNation should be there.
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:51 pm

#57 ThombDbhomb YES, the tie, we want it to wear to Voltnation at Detroit!
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 pm

Ryan P #55

Thanks for the heads up. My guide shows it’s on CNBC at 9pm EST.
wwskinn3 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:04 pm

To check your place on the waiting list and update your record go to:

http://gm-volt.com/join-us/
Ed M Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:04 pm

Statik

How about a Christmas Lutz tie with Santa delivering toys in a Chevy Volt ?
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:04 pm

#15 wwskinn3

Continental AG is CON. About $76/sh on Friday. As a German company, it is traded there; not sure about NY.
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:08 pm

#45 Koz

It is estimated that 85% of “newly engineered” products are based mainly on prior products. Most of the PhDs employed in industry are there to watch out for developments in other places that can be picked up by their own company. Let us not put it down too much, for it is how Japanese cars went from markedly inferior to often superior products, just getting better and better.
wwskinn3 Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm

#67 RB -

Thanks for the info. Now, if we can find out for sure who is getting the contract, maybe we can buy some shares before it goes up. I would think that a contract like this would certainly make the stock go up. Only problem is that Continental AG is such a large conglomerate and doesn’t seem to have a stock symbol for their battery division.
canehdian Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:22 pm

New volt news would be nice
Even a ’slightly more accurate’ number on the MPG would be nice.
Obviously they don’t want to say a number and then it be half that and disappoint the masses, but they should at least give us an update.. its been a year and a half!

Also, that winglet is a P.O.S…
Lets see.. it goes walking speed.. and wont even last for an hour with sustained use.
JUST WALK! Don’t waste your money on shlit like that.
Maybe if it went 30 mpc or perhaps it went 15mph it would be useful.
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Jim I, #40,

If I worked for a company that gave me 6 weeks vacation to start,
a 36 hour work week, and a boss that was not a complete a**, but someone really good to work for, I would never leave to compete.
I wouldn’t have too. I would have it made right where I was.
Show me an American company that would do that for their workers.
I doubt there is one.

Edit: Maybe Google is one, but there really are so few.
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:29 pm

GM Volt Fan, #33.

I believe that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are the exceptions, not the rule.
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm

I’m trying to understand what building an automotive Li-ion battery involves. I know it is assembled from cells. How many cells? Are these off the shelf, or specially made? What is involved in assembling them into an automotive battery? Any help appreciated.
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm

Rashiid #71

You are correct. Europe’s labor market is so over regulated that it is not competitive with the US. Consider that the EEU has 370million people but only about 3/4 the GDP of the US which has 70 million less. Not sure of the exact figures on the labor force, but you get the picture.

Government should do it’s job as a referee, but no more. Once you start “guaranteeing” labor certain rights you’re in for trouble in the long run.

That said, if push comes to shove and low-rate cashier window loans are needed to keep GM afloat should it be done? Yes it should, because like it or not, a good referee is a good referee and needs to keep the game going. And, particularly in this case, the name of the game is breaking our addiction to oil.
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:55 pm

RB #73

This is a very good question. I’m sure everyone would like to know the specifics WRT the Volt battery…not to mention who will get the contract. We do know that the cells will not be cylindrical but prismatic, and as you’re aware, the battery is the pack, not the individual cells.

For starters, this vid may help:

http://tinyurl.com/6bhgeq
RB Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:08 pm

#75 Grizzly regarding Li-ion battery

Thanks immensely for the link, which was most interesting. I learned a lot in 5 minutes, and wish there was a sequel that had details about the Volt’s battery in particular.

The battery assembly in the video seemed to require a lot of hand work. I wonder if this is typical of these batteries, or only needed because it was a prototype.

In this context, what does “prismatic” mean?

I wonder if GM could tell us a little more about the Volt battery, without giving away competitive details.
Koz Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:37 pm

Grizzly & RB,

Yes, harsh. Yes, many products are incremental improvements over their predecessors. The harshness was meant for the commentor and the total neglect for the actual innovator. Their are a lot of knockoffs of nearly every product. Some actually do good at cost reducing and improving ideas but many just blatantly capitalize on other people’s ideas. I believe we are doing a poor job of protecting innovating ideas, partly from in-country companies but more so from those elsewhere. This could turn into a long discussion but it’s out of context here so I’ll say no more.
Tagamet Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Len@53
If the people in Denmark are happy and there are only 6 rich people, maybe they have learned there is more to life than counting money. “

My point was that there is no incentive to become rich (and I don’t know many poor people hiring these days) if a huge percentage of your efforts are going to support others.
I agree that there is much more to life than counting money, but earning money to support your family - maybe even getting rich in the process - isn’t inherently bad.
Well, this sure is way off the VOLT, so I’ll head for bed now.
Be well,
Tag
JonP Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 pm

Denmark………

Damn GM we need some real news!!

On a side note i just checked i’m 3798 on the wait list, damn with 35K signed up that makes me a pioneer on this site!
He's Back ! Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm

Breaking News:

Brett Favre has arrived in Green Bay !!

Yes, the greatest QB of all-time is BAAAACK.
Grizzly Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 pm

RB #76

“I learned a lot in 5 minutes, and wish there was a sequel that had details about the Volt’s battery in particular. ”

*** *** ***

Don’t we all? It’s one thing to share and another to completely “give away”. We’ll get whatever GM wants us to have and we’ll just have to make speculative do with the bone we’ve been tossed!
Jim I Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Rashiid #71: Two Things:

1. So to get the same amount of work done for the customers, there would have to be more employees, to cover for all those days people are not there. Maybe that is one of the many reasons why the Volt will cost over $60K in Europe. But wasn’t it you back in April that said you would not buy the Volt if it cost over $30K in support of the masses? So how do you justify having larger costs incurred by the businesses while at the same time demanding lower cost products being delivered by those same companies? You can’t have it both ways!

2. “Show me an American company that would do that for their workers.” I honestly say I can’t. But if you think it is possible, go out and mortgage everything you own, put your entire future on the line, and start a company, like I did. Give your workers the benefits you listed. Tell your customers they will have to pay more, as you believe it is the right thing to do for your employees. You will be the voted “the best boss in the universe” by your workers, and out of business within one year………..

Finally, just for the record, most small business owners I know get to work first, leave last, and usually take less time off for vacations than any of their employees. It is one of the “perks” of being the boss!

I apologize for taking this thread so far out of the Volt realm. PLEASE GM - Show us some pictures of the interior, so we can talk about all things Volt again!!!!!
canehdian Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:30 pm

Prismatic, as the name suggests, is prism-shaped.
I.e. a rectangular shape, but 3-d.
Cautious Fan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:42 pm

I just want to be on record for saying that I love America. Freedom means more than just bill of rights. How free are you if 50.3% of your entire GDP goes to the gov’t like it does in Denmark. The gov’t gets 50% of what your produce and allocates it how they see fit. The people over there support this communal type of gov’t, they have a different culture, that’s fine for them. In the U.S. the gov’t takes 27% of GDP which is bad enough. But I like choosing what to do with my resources, including giving to charities of my choice or buying cool new electric cars….

so I guess this post may have something do with the Volt. Naaah.
Sam Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 12:25 am

Ah, crap! I don’t think think my cable provider on this northern side of the border in Canada will have the SAVING THE GENERAL MOTORS documentary =(

Can ANYONE PLEASE RECORD AND POST IT??
Or at least sum up any new info about the VOLT =D
Cautious Fan Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 12:30 am

Why prismatic? I guess they pack better? I’d think they’d be harder to make.
Randal Sparks Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 1:53 am

#59 PlugFreeVolt

Thanks for the link. I really didn’t think that the Chevron had changed its stripes. But of course we have been told that they have licensed their NiMH tech to just about anybody and that their efforts to stall electric car production are just a conspiracy theory. Just because I am paranoid doesn’t mean I am wrong.

Let’s try a “Statik” analysis here. GM buys Cobasys, which has a contractual obligation to make batteries for Mercedes. GM goes belly up and can’t produce. Mercedes has to buy GM, for about 2 cents per share, so that they can keep their battery supply going. Now I know why Mercedes sold off Chrysler. They were just raising cash so they would have enough money to buy GM. Things just keep getting curiouser and curiouser.

Anyway, I love the fact that the technological feasibility of and the increased need for electric vehicles are now the driving force behind auto business decisions. Some companies will still manage to screw it up, but the basic physics will rule the game and many will get it right enough for us to see a major change in our society soon.
Anthony BC Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 3:50 am

YA! what JEC # 34 said!

More VOLT news & a Lutz Tie offer!

GO GM GO VOLT for 2010!
Rashiid Amul Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 5:20 am

Jim I, # 82

I was referring to big corporations. Not small businesses such as yours. I would really be surprised if you are paying yourself millions of dollars a year. I’m not picking on the little guys, it’s the giants that I am referring to. Being in IT, I have done my share of 70 hour weeks.
My longest day was 36 hours. The only thing any of us got was a standard paycheck, nothing more. Hard working, dedicated employees should be rewarded. Even if it is simply a day off with pay and a thank you.
While huge companies such as Ford, GM, GE, IBM, ExxonMobile, etc
pay their CEOs big big money, what are they doing to the worker bees?

Next: I stand by what I said months ago and have been saying all along. I won’t pay over $30K for the Volt, even though I can.
I didn’t put GM in this predicament. They did it to themselves while paying millions of dollars a year to whatever useless CEO they had at the helm.

I currently work for a great company. They pay all of our benefits.
Lunch is subsidized. We have use of a free gym in the building.
They pay well. Unlimited sick time (which I take about 0-2 days a year). But they are stingy (like most American employers) when it comes to vacations. I can’t expect to have it all, and I don’t. I consider myself lucky.

Lastly, I want to congratulate you on your bold move of taking a chance and starting your own company. I have nothing but praise for people like you who have the gumption to that. My hat is off to you, Jim I. I honestly and truly wish you well and wish you success.
Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

#58 Statik:

The Tie gives me confidence. Mr. Lutz is clearly a man with the fashion sense of an engineer. And that’s a good thing.
Donan Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Did any of you guys read how the 2010 Prius will still use NiMH not Lithium batteries? Toyota said that the switch to Lithium won’t likely happen until 2011 or 2012. This will put the Volt even furher ahead in sales I believe.
Mark Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I’m tired of the talk about hybrids. I want a pure battery electric car, but I know we won’t see one built by the car companies we grew up with.

Who does not want EV’s in our driveways:

-Big Automakers, because they, and their dealer networks do not earn significant revenue by selling cars. A look at how large their service departments are (and our out-of-wallet experience with them) shows what’s at stake revenue-wise because EV’s never need service beyond tire changes. EV’s don’t even need brake jobs due to electronic regenerative braking that does most of the work. Their ordinary friction brake pads and rotors thus last the life of the car (as shown on the Toyota electric Rav4).
The large established car companies depend on their service department, like printer companies depend on sales of ink cartridges. So why did Toyota sell the Rav4 instead of leasing and crushing as GM did with the EV1? It’s a mystery, but I came across a blog that mentioned that a Toyota exec at a public speech mistakenly said that the cars would be sold, and so to save face, Toyota reluctantly sold the Rav4. Buyers, however, now post on blogs that they actually had difficulty in getting the Toyota dealer to sell them an electric Rav4 and that they were highly pressured to instead buy a Gas Toyota or a Prius.

-Large oil companies, for obvious reasons. Note they are also major stockholders in auto companies and thus probably have influence over their board of directors.

Business firms exist to make profits, but profits are going to be reduced if EV’s replace the ICE car. Much of our economy is based on the automobile, and its upkeep. Almost every business is related in some way to the car. What will happen to employment if the need to service a car is reduced?

What happens to Midas, Pepboys, Kragen’s, smog check, AMCO, gas stations, Jiffylube, general service repair centers, the manufacturing plants that fabricate repair parts, the UPS people that deliver the parts, the corner deli or Taco Bells frequented by those firm’s workers at lunchtime? What about government agencies that depend on collecting all manner of tax revenue from the above interlinked economy?

If people understand this scenario, then they will understand why they can’t yet buy an EV from the legacy business infrastructure. Only recently can one sniff the scent of a potential EV from upstart EV start-up manufacturers like Tesla (too costly for mass production partly because they hand-solder a battery pack of 6000 Lithium AA sized cells together in series-parallel groups), Aptera, and even the tiny BugE, etc., because a startup company does not need to address the risk that a service-free vehicle will parasitically affect revenue from other parts of its company.

Curiously, Nissan’s CEO has advocated a pure EV but I have a hard time believing he really will build one and that the announcement is mostly PR in nature. After all, Nissan has service centers, too.

Continental AG Moving Towards Lithium-ion Cell Production

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