GM CEO: “People Will be Lined up to Get Into This Kind of Vehicle”
It’s very tough times in the US economy and for the auto industry in particular. GM surprised investors yesterday with a rather large loss of $15.5 billion dollars in the second quarter. Despite that they still have $21 billion in cash reserves, $5 billion in credit lines, and plans to raise an additional $15 billion in cash. GM feels comfortable with their liquidity through the end of 2009, but has had to make major changes slashing truck production, workforce ranks, and scrambling to build new small fuel efficient cars.
Consistent with the market slide, GM also announced that July US sales were down 26.7% from July last year, with trucks off by 40% and cars down by 19%. Vehicles for which sales actually increased were Malibu, Aveo, Cobalt, CTS, Vibe, G5, G6, Aura, and Sky. GM sold 1091 hybrid cars in the month for a total of 5.476 for the year to date.
Its no secret that its do or die time for GM, and the Chevy Volt is the car that will hopefully lead the way to GMs bright electric future.
Chairman Wagoner was interviewed by ABC News. He notes that as gas prices rise, "people are putting a much higher premium on cost efficiency," and states "that large numbers of people used to buy large SUVs and pick-ups, and I don’t think they’re going to come back to that category given the high cost of energy."
Wagoner notes that the automotive industry is "at a tipping point" and that of all alternative fuels, "electricity is going to be a winner long term."
He expects GM to "lead the world" in this technology and when asked whether he believes people will have difficulty accepting this kind of car he says:
"I think it’s true to say that some consumers will adapt more slowly than others, but from the reaction I’ve seen … I don’t think we will have any problem. I think people will be lined up to get into this kind of vehicle."
I couldn’t agree with you more Mr. Wagoner, in fact we’ve got over 32,000 lined up right here.
Popularity: 6%
Related posts:
- Lutz: GM Deserving of Government Loans
- Could Recession Crash the Volt?
- Saving General Motors
- Toyota Thinks People Might Not Want Plug-in Electric Vehicles Like the Chevy Volt
- GM Makes Cuts to Raise Liquidity by $15 Billion: No Impact on Volt
(7 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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August 2nd, 2008 at 6:02 am
21 billion cash
5 billion credit
15 billion cash to raise
$41 billion total / 15.5 billion loss per quarter
= 2.65 quarters left before it’s time to start selling furniture!
I hope they don’t have any more of these “1 time write downs” everyone especially the auto and financial industry keep having or they won’t get past the first quarter of 2009.
Good luck GM I want my volt and want to see you guys do well.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:15 am
If only people in the USA realized the domestic cars are just as good and in many cases even better than the competitors. I know many who blog on this site don’t really care about GM so I expect negative feedback.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:19 am
“I think we are really at a tipping point for our industry. We’ve been [for] almost 100 years pretty much fully reliant on petroleum,” said Wagoner. “And I think it’s clear, both the way things are today and the ways they’re going to go in the future, that we’re going to have to develop alternative sources of power for vehicles, and we think electricity is going to be a winner long term.”
This statement shows, at least, Wagoner can see the writing on the wall as far as fossil fuels is concerned.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:51 am
I am very worried about GM surviving past next year. The numbers just don’t add up…….
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:57 am
Lyle — Excellent post. Thank you. Wagoner’s comments are on the mark.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:58 am
Contrary to the quote in the title of this article –> At $35k-$40k, there aren’t that many people who can afford to stand in line.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:09 am
#1 Gsned57
One also can see the same GM numbers in a much more positive way. Much of the loss of the most recent quarter is non-recurring. Further, operating expenses are coming down.
So, get the same $41 billion the same way that you did. Now suppose that GM’s net cash loss averages $2B per quarter. Then after 2 years (8 quarters) cash remaining is $41B-$16B = $21B, or about the same as now.
Going even further, what has been happening in the economy as far as cars and trucks is that people have been scrambling around to figure out how to cope with short-term changes in housing and in the price of gasoline. People will get themselves stabilized again, and when they do there will be some more big sales years for cars, including SUVs and trucks. It will happen, even though we don’t know when. It is amazing how much an extra 3 million cars sold can do for GM’s bottom line.
That is, the fat lady hasn’t sung yet.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:15 am
#6 Herkimer
Certainly fewer at $35K than at $25K. On the other hand, my guess is that there are far more at $35K than there will be Volts, at least through 2011.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:19 am
#4 Spin
The numbers look bad because sales have been lower than projected, and this is a business with high base costs. Turn that around with a couple of years of higher than expected sales and things can look ever so much better in a very short time.
GM has downsized truck and SUV production so much that exceeding present expectations can easily occur, even in 2009.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:32 am
When the AVERAGE PERSON UNDERSTANDS that only a $1.00’s worth of electricity could get them back and forth to work each day AND a VIABLE (only a BEV?) VEHICLE appears that is in their extended economic reach, look out !
Look what’s happening to the price of a used Prius now.
In addition, the maintenance simplicity of a BEV or a “serial hybrid” / EREV will be a strong incentive to make the jump.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:50 am
#7 RB, Yeah I realize that a lot of the loss is non recurring but my point was that it seems like (and I’m using a seems like not facts) every quarter for the last 3 or 4 have had large non recurring write downs.
I’m not saying they are gonna go down 15 billion next quarter because of the issues they paid off this last one, but I just hope another set of “non-recurring” costs don’t pop up that drag em down another 15 billion.
Basically it’s hard to see so many recurring non-recurring costs every quarter. I hope your mathematical scenario pans out over mine because I wanna see the volt roll off the line as well as the Vue PHEV and hopefully a minivan and truck PHEV soon thereafter.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:58 am
“People Will be Lined up to Get This Kind of Vehicle”
what a joke! only diehards would pay $40k for 4 seats hybrid
maybe he meant Toyota (this kind) ?
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:06 am
I think UAW workers voting for “no to drilling” Democrats makes little sense. How many will lose their jobs at Chrysler, Ford and GM? Crushing the automakers like an old EV1 might seem like fun, but give me a break.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 am
I suspect that the federal government will loan GM money through the issuing of low interest “green bonds”. If the fed will backstop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, then they will certainly provide a backstop to GM, especially when they are on the cusp of introducing REEV’s, which reduce gasoline consumption 80% without adding any infrastructure. REEV’s will also condition consumers to plugging in their vehicles.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:34 am
Is that a picture of the GM employees standing in the unemployment lines?
(just kidding)
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:34 am
LOL - Obama finally says drilling offshore for oil is OK - I hope he includes natural gas in his meaning.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/08/its-saturday-an.html
What’s funny is that Obama waited until after the Congress had adjourned, so he’s thrown them under the bus, such that they cannot respond to his call for more drilling for the next 5 weeks. Perhaps he’s hoping public opinion changes in 5 weeks, so that Congress won’t have to do anything.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:43 am
Here is a better article on Obama’s capitulation to offshore drilling:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/46174.html
If it weren’t for elections, Dems wouldn’t do anything the American public wanted.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:44 am
At least 5,100 GM workers will be in a different line.
The unemployment line. I don’t think any of those ex-GM workers will be waiting in this virtual line to buy the next Volt anytime soon.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:45 am
11Gsned57
I know what you mean, it does seem like “non-recurring” has happened over and over. Still, each of the individual items really is non-recurring, such as costs of factory closures, and costs associated with people leaving.
But within each one of these items is a future gain — income no longer has to carry such high baseline costs — if the corporation lasts that long. If the next few years turn out to be good ones for auto sales, in comparison to GM’s rather gloomy predictions, the bottom line could turn around dramatically.
These are big ifs, but it could happen,
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 am
$30,000 is quoted as the projected price of a Volt at the end of the ABC News source for Lyles comment. That number persists but would seem to low because of battery costs. I think the Government should subsidize it down to about that level. My thinking is, that will make-up for the lack of Government leadership in this whole area. I know the National Energy Labs have been working on the issue, but we all know that the priorty level has been low along with the funding. It has been as neglected and misunderstood as the real estate/mortgage issue & I would add as mismanaged as the whole Iraqi fiasco. I’m sorry to get political about this but it can’t be avoided. Isn’t the selection of a battery manufacturer due soon, but perhaps delayed because of eestor. Kind of note worthy how everybody watches GM and not the other auto companies. GM truly is the leader of the pack.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:00 am
A loss of $27 per share (which is worth about $11 last time I checked). What cash reserves? Seriously? I wouldn’t count debts owed to GM because the next domino to fall in the credit crisis behind subprime mortgages are car loans, then credit cards.
IMO Wagoner’s and Lutz’s hyperbole need to stop until they can back it up with some prototypes. If anything, it’d help market the product and attract weary consumers back to GM in general. I a little tired of the spin. I’m getting skeptical.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Hendler, if you think drilling is the answer, why are you here? No one who looks at the issue thinks that drilling will make any significant impact. Republicans sell the drilling lie to the gullible.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:08 am
I really wonder where all this cash flows. If GM is survive they need to slow down the outward cash flow.
Closing plants and layoffs will slow the flow, but by how much? The problem is two fold, since GM must slow down the cash going out, and try to make real profits on sales.
GM’s big problem (like other car manufact.) is that they became so reliant on the sales of the SUV’s and trucks. These have much larger margins and they became addicted to this “easy” money.
But, how do you efficiently convert over to small car production? The margins on these small cars is so much less, and GM knows it (in last post GM was said “expect to pay more for less”, which I think is going to becomes GM’s motto). But, competition is not going to just sit back and let you make large margins, they will force them down.
This is GM’s problem. They CHOSE to develop larger cars and engines. Ignoring the environment, and the inevitable oil price increase. If, like was mentioned in #14 JMH, the govt. bails GM out, then they just encourage this type of corporate behavior. If GM cannot right their own ship, than let it sink. Did GM send out checks to the public when it was making money hand over fist, selling all those high margin vehicles?
I totally disagree with the govt. decision to bail out failing companies. It becomes a crutch that companies rely on, and as any addiction it just get worse. Bite the bullet, let weak companies fail, and let the innovative companies pick up the pieces and succeed.
Just like I do not think the govt. should be dipping into the pockets of oil companies that are making record profits. They are doing what they are supposed to do, make as much profit as possible. If you are buying stock, you look for companies that have high as returns as possible, not one that is looking for govt. handouts. (at least I do)
IMHO, of course.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:21 am
MarkinWi
“Hendler, if you think drilling is the answer, why are you here? No one who looks at the issue thinks that drilling will make any significant impact. Republicans sell the drilling lie to the gullible.”
Politics aside, when Bush took office he wanted to do several things to help with the price of oil. Build nuclear plants and store the waste in Yuka mountain. He also wanted to drill in Anwr. Now, at the time, oil/gas was realtively cheap (we Americans are so short sighted), and people (especially democrates) stated that they didn’t want to hurt the Caribou or the freckled frog…and by the way, they said, it would take at least 3-5 years to see any benefits from this project. Well guess what, how many years has it been, and now here we are still saying it is a waste because it would take 3-5 years and those poor Caribou and freckled frogs might lick some oil. What will we be saying in another 3-5 years?
I said politics aside. So we need a short term, and long term solution to this problem. Yes, we do need more drilling (especially here at home) to put more oil on the market and safeguard our own interests, but we also need to be investing at the same time in wind, thermal, nuclear, and solar and anything else that will help us. No single solution is going to get us out of this, but to limit our own drilling is only hurting us now and later and making us a poorer country in the process.
Hawk
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
firehawk72
Totally agree, I could not have stated it better myself.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:41 am
MarkinWI,
firehawk72 answered your question pretty well. I believe in doing everything, pushing forward on all fronts, and changing our national / state policies on off-shore drilling will cause speculators to drop the price of oil nearterm, while alternative forms of energy help us in the long term.
I am here to cheer on the Volt, as it will reduce the gasoline consumer of the average driver 80 percent - reducing demand also reduces the price.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:47 am
markinWI
I happen to support expanded oil exploration and am a big fan of volt and other electric car projects. The “why are you here” argument is weak. I will be here every day reading the website and plan to buy a volt or other electric vehicle. Some people are here because the technology fascinates them, some because of financial concerns of increased fuel costs, some because of politics. This site is not just for people who think like you.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:47 am
If people are willing to pay $28000 for a used toyota prius,then they will certainly pay $35000 + for an all electric that uses no gas at all.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:52 am
Unless Rick does something about battery costs, that line might be shorter than he thinks.
Do you really think people are going to pay a $20,000 premium to save $ 10,000 in fuel costs ? A penny saved, a pound foolish.
Less battery, less car = less cost.
Maybe GM should make me a VP ?
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:52 am
Why are these threads always about financials…I thought this was a fan site?
/hehe
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:59 am
>> If people are willing to pay $28000 for a used toyota prius,then they will certainly pay $35000 + for an all electric that uses no gas at all.
Prius has been on roads for 10.5 years already and has had several major upgrades over that time. Commitment to the technology is undeniable, with the next generation on the way and several other vehicles sharing similar design. Consumer endorsements have been overwhelmingly positive too.
Volt won’t have any of that for quite awhile still. Time is required to earn merit.
The mindset of overnight success has got to end.
Also, don’t sight rare examples as if they are the norm. Remember that the need is for millions of high-efficiency vehicles in the very near future.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:04 am
Hmmm …. I wonder what they are talking about with this:
For an exclusive peek at the new Chevy Volt design, watch “Focus Earth” Saturday, Aug. 2, on Discovery’s “Planet Green” network.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/WoodruffReports/Story?id=5492311&page=1
I just programmed my DVR to record it. It’s a new channel I haven’t had a chance to watch very much. If you are interested in “going green” and trying to save some money on your energy bills this is the channel to watch.
I’d like to see this “Planet Green” channel show more of those documentary films like Al Gore’s and Leo DiCaprio’s so more people can see it. Every year, there seems to be more of these documentary films coming out at the Sundance Film Festival, etc. Some of them are pretty interesting … stuff you just don’t see on the 24/7 news channels. Whether you agree with the documentary or not, people still ought to see them to learn more about these issues and make up their own minds.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:06 am
#24 Firehawk 72, Your statement was very well said and I agree with you 100%.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 am
Wagoner says,
“I think it’s true to say that some consumers will adapt more slowly than others, but from the reaction I’ve seen … I don’t think we will have any problem. I think people will be lined up to get into this kind of vehicle.”
I say Duh! Then make more than the projected 200,000 by 2015.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:15 am
The whole world is at a tipping point in many, many ways.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:41 am
22 MarkinWI says,
Hendler, if you think drilling is the answer, why are you here? No one who looks at the issue thinks that drilling will make any significant impact. Republicans sell the drilling lie to the gullible.
Jason M. Hendler, thank you for being here and providing us with your valued opinion.
MarkinWI, I am opposed to drilling and adding more oil to the marketplace.
We are paying a heavy price right now and I don’t want to see it lowered by adding more oil. More oil only prolongs the agony. I’m for getting off of fossil fuels, but it will take a while to do it. BTW, I am a republican, and I slam drilling as much as possible.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 am
Just imagine when a volt comes to your local dealership. You pop the hood, check out the generator, see the electric motor, maybe take the seats off and see the battery, slide your hand along the curved panels. The interior will be high-quality with some LCD’s. You’ll be able to go for an all electric test drive, even if you’re like me and can’t afford it yet. It gives me goosebumps. I guess that’s why I come to this site.
Even if GM goes to chapter 11, they’ll still produce the Volt. At that point the development costs will be sunk and there’s just too much profit to made from 40K.
I’d like to add my name to the drill list. I love alternative technologies, but there’s no silver bullet. Shoot them all and let the market sort them out.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:45 am
#17 Hendler
Capitulation? That’s one way to look at it. But realistically he’s just eaten the Republican’s lunch.
Start from the fact that no one who knows anyhing about oil development cares about offshore drilling. There hasn’t been any oil discovered offshore in the last ten years and there isn’t going to be any discovered in the next ten. Blackbeard effectively ended the quest. The only offshore drilling we’ll see in the next ten years will involve people having sex on boats.
On the other hand he does want inventives for clean cars and R&D and other programs that will end our addiction to oil (in all fairness John McCain wants many of the same thngs, they’re fairly close on energy issues). But these programs all cost money, and under the “pay as you go” budget rules you have to find program cuts or tax increases to pay for them.
So what does Obama do? In a manner reminiscent of Ronald Reagan at his best, he lets the opposing party make offshore drilling a big deal, he lets a bi-partisan group come up with a plan which inlcudes the programs he wants, paid for by the oil companies (in this case elimination of a special manufacturing tax credit), and then he “reluctantly” announces he will accept the compromise because he’s a practical guy who knows how to work across the isle, cut deals, and get things done. At the end of day he comes off smelling like a rose while getting what he wants and giving up nothing.
The great news for Volt fans is that the compromise includes incentives for the Volt! I’m surprised no one has honed in on this. As far as I can tell the Volt, with its E-flex engine, should qualify for a $7500 tax credit since it uses alternative fuels. That is a chunk of change. And even if the bill does not become law this year, it sets the framework for later bills, making a significant tax credit for the Volt very likely.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:53 am
A word about one time charges. The term does not mean that you won’t see more one timers it just means that the charge for whatever category like a write down of inventory, or other is not recurring like debt repayment or amortization.
WRT GM, why is it that no one thinks that with all the cutting back of expenses in tough times like a lot of companies are doing that GM won’t at least bring it’s right side of the balance sheet very close or below future revenues? No doubt they won’t balance their sheet with revenue growth short term, but there are two sides of the equation. If revenues are flat or declining and you cut the heck out of op expenses you are doing what any responsible company needs to do, and most of the effect won’t be realized for a quarter or two. That said, it is entirely possible that GM may soon realize operating parity or better. I get a kick out of posts that do things like take current losses and extrapolate them as though they’re permanent.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:54 am
24, firehawk72 says,
Yes, we do need more drilling (especially here at home) to put more oil on the market and safeguard our own interests, but we also need to be investing at the same time in wind, thermal, nuclear, and solar and anything else that will help us. No single solution is going to get us out of this…….
—————
Yup, no single solution. But I agree with most of what you said. I disagree on drilling for more oil, and I’m not sure they have a good way of getting rid of nuclear waste yet. But wind, solar, thermal, (I’ll add Hydro) are all great things.
We’ll disagree on oil drilling, but I do understand what you are saying.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:55 am
Attention Volt supporters we are all on the TITANIC thanks to the corrupt banks the fed and the congress. We are GM, thousands of people will be out of a job next year as the fed keeps up the program of welfare for the rich with taxpayer money inflation will hit 200 to 400 per cent. ALL OF YOU WHO VOTED REPUBLICAN maybe you will finally realize what you have done to this country, enjoy the ride down the spiral. If you don’t believe me just look at California, New York, Indiana. Soon your dollars wont be worth a disposable diaper, purchase a Volt you have to be kidding we will be lucky if we can buy a loaf of bread for less than 100 BUSH BUCKS.
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 am
Firehawk, you say “we Americans are so short sighted”. Very true. But that includes the desire of the American people to drill more.
We need to get off of oil plain and simple for economic, environmental, and national security reasons. Anwar contains an insignificant amount of oil in the long term even under the best of estimates. And you do realize that the oil companies currently hold leases on offshore drilling that they aren’t using. Nearly 75 percent of existing leases on federal lands are producing no oil according to the AP. 30 million acres dormant. But giving them more leases is going to solve something? The call of more drilling is just as misguided, misrepresented, and useless as McCain’s backing of the “gas tax holiday”.
Additionally, McCain’s claim that new offshore oil could come online with a matter of months is a flat out lie. Either one that he made up or one that he has been fed from the oil companies. Either way, he should be smarter or more principled than to repeat it. In the meantime, Republicans continue to push to give the most profitable companies in the history of the planet ongoing tax breaks so they can continue to collude on prices and production screwing us all! All politics aside, of course.
The big automakers made their bed by teaming with oil companies to resist higher CAFE standards for years. And now they are slipping into nonexistence while the oil companies make out like bandits.
As for Yucca mountain, that’s been blocked by local Nevada politicians, Republican and Democrat alike. I’ll grant you that we need to get back into safe nuclear power. With many of these electric cars hitting the roads in the near future, we will need nuclear power as part of the solution.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
# 2 Joe -
Chevy used to be the best however, some years back started putting out some real junk and seemed to be riding on it’s reputation only. After you do that it is hard to get many of those customers back. With other companies consistantly putting out quality it is hard to try a Chevy again. Many people never will. It is not about weather GM’s quality is good but whether or not one is willing to “try” them again. My father drove Chevy’s all his life but after he bought a “Honda” to tow behind his motor home, said he would never buy another vehicle except Honda.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
“Consistent with the market slide, GM also announced that July US sales were down 26.7% from July last year”
It sounds harsh but, perhaps there’s not enough room for 3 major American car makers. While Ford and GM are having sales and cash problems, I believe Chrysler LLC is in the biggest trouble. That’s only conjecture, as they are now privately held, and don’t need to air their dirty laundry, as the Wall Street companies do.
Imho, a leading auto co. w/o a major PHEV or electric drive program today is mortgaging their future. Their PHEV program seems to be going nowhere, as their PHEV Sprinter Van project has no new news and no hints of production vehicles. They even make Ford’s (”mass production of PHEV’s at least 5 years away”) plans look advanced.
Sometimes the marketplace must go through recessionary times to encourage metamorphosis and come out on the other side, much stronger and better able to compete internationally. It’s tough, but then, so is the international marketplace.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:27 am
I’m in line,
I’m an early adopter standing by,
40 miles all electric will work great for my family,
I may only have to buy gas a few times a year,
Yes, I’m in line GM, two please.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 am
only if the price point is RIGHT…….otherwise……it will be a dud!
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 am
#42 TDJ
Stop worrying about oil development. It’s over. With Obama’s announced support for the Gang of 10’s plan, ANWAR is off the table (the plan sets the framework, it can be modified but nothing major will be added, and ANWAR is specifically excluded). Offshore drilling is allowed in some areas but what difference can it possibly make? Realistically there isn’t any oil there. Offshore drilling has always been a canard, and in this case it’s a canard well worth eating.
There are so many great things in the bill that it’s hard not to get excited. Here’s a summary:
Apollo:
• $7.5 billion for R&D focused on the major technological barriers to alternative fuel vehicles, such as advanced batteries;
• $7.5 billion to help U.S. automakers and parts makers re-tool and re-equip to become the world leader in making alternative fuel vehicles;
• Consumer tax credits of up to $7,500 per vehicle to incentivize Americans to purchase advanced alternative fuel vehicles (those that run primarily on non-petroleum fuels) and up to $2,500 to retrofit existing vehicles with advanced alternative fuel engines.
Enhancing Conservation
• Extending renewable energy, carbon mitigation and energy conservation and efficiency tax incentives, including the production tax credit, through 2012 to create greater certainty and spur greater investment;
• New consumer tax credits of up to $2,500 to purchase highly fuel efficient vehicles, to help Americans reduce their annual gas costs and reduce oil imports;
• Extending and expanding the $2,500 tax credit for hybrid electric vehicles;
• $500 million for R&D into new materials and other innovations to improve vehicle fuel efficiency;
• $2.5 billion in R,D&D on next generation biofuels and infrastructure;
• Tax incentives for the installation of alternative fueling stations, pipelines and other infrastructure;
• Expanding transmission capacity for power from renewable sources;
• New dedicated funding for the weatherization assistance program.
Other:
• Provides grants and loan guarantees for the development of coal-to-liquid fuel plants with carbon capture capability. Plants must have lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions below those of the petroleum fuels they are replacing;
• Supports nuclear energy by increasing staff at the NRC, providing workforce training, accelerating depreciation for nuclear plants, and supporting R&D on spent fuel recycling to reduce nuclear waste
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:52 am
28. Randy
I think there will be plenty of people who will pay $35,000 for the Volt. People buy cars for all sorts of reasons … and not just for financial reasons.
I’ve always wondered why you sometimes see short, 5′2″ women driving huge SUVs and trucks like Hummers around town to do their errands and shopping. I seriously doubt that they really NEED an huge SUV for their work. Maybe a small SUV like a Saturn Vue or Honda CR-V, but not a Ford Expedition. Maybe it’s an ego thing? My car is bigger than yours … just like my house. Hmmmm …
Some of them buy big SUVs in order to make sure their vehicle usually wins in a collision with another car. It’s a safety thing for the kiddies I guess. But buying an huge $40,000+ SUV for safety is a wee bit of overkill. It’s a lot cheaper for them to take a good defensive driving class and get a Volvo if they are concerned about the kids in a crash. I’ve read that the big SUVs and trucks aren’t really that much safer in crash tests anyway. Check this out about trucks. They don’t get good crash test scores because of side impacts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUFiWNGiU20
It’s the crash tests that matter more than size. Some cars like Volvos have special safety cages and the latest front/side airbag technologies. People should read Consumer Reports about that safety and crash tests, etc. That’s data they get from 3rd party testers.
I bet in the future if carbon fiber and thermoplastics ever get inexpensive enough, you’ll see that the lightest cars are actually the best performers in crash tests. That’s what enables the Indy car and Formula 1 drivers to walk out of bad crashes without a scratch.
I hear that the newest high strength steel is a lot better for crashes these days. You’ll see more of it in a few years. Ford will have more cars with lightweight, high strength steel and magnesium alloys. GM ought to do the same thing for all their cars. The problem with the new steel is cost because of all the projects going on in China and India. Those 2 countries are devouring commodities like crazy. Cars are going to be more expensive for steel costs alone.
China and India are the main reason for the runup in gasoline prices. Even though gas prices are dropping a little now, they are on an upward trend in the next 10 years. Just wait until all these $4,000 Tata gasoline cars become popular in India and China. There might be millions of these little 20-30 mpg cars in just a few years. If we don’t find 3+ more supergiant oil fields like in Saudi Arabia we might be seeing $10/gallon in 2012 or so (maybe sooner).
Bottom line … lightweight, safe hybrids like the Volt and the “Saturn Vue 2 mode plug-in” ought to do VERY well once GM gets them on the road … even if they are pricier than people expect. I bet the newest Priuses from Toyota in 2010+ with lithium ion batteries will be pricey … probably $35K too. People really will be standing in line for these cars. GM now needs to figure out how to “E-Flexify” the rest of their cars somehow. They at least better start the planning process now or they could miss out on a lot of sales.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
#3 NZDavid:
Even I can read the handwriting on the wall. For $16 million/year, one could have hoped that Mr. Wagoner could have read it a little sooner.
Can you help us with this issue of “paying more for less like the Europeans do”? Do the prices for cars quoted in Europe, particularly the UK, include the Value Added Tax (VAT), or not. I rmember years ago, when I used to get Autocar, there was a terrifying VAT on cars in Britain, something like 50% Is that still true? Is a $30K car in Britain actually $20K before the VAT? Can you, or Statik, or someone help us with what the impact of the so-called “weak dollar” has on this equation.
Sorry to stereotype you as being an expert on things British, as I know that you are on “the far side of the world”, but we desperately need some expert insight from somewhere.
Mr. Lutz is shooting himself in the foot again with this arrogant “pay more for less” stuff, IMHO. Where, or where, are the minders?
#40 Rashiid Amul & #42 TDJ:
Well, if those ungrateful ingrates in Nevada don’t want our precious nuclear waste, I hear that the geology down around Crawford, Texas would be pretty good for a repository.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
#43 You are right on the money. GM has been abusing it’s loyal customers for years by producing poor quality and low tech vehicles. I personally know of many loyal domestic car buyers that will not buy anything but Toyota or Honda now. The company I work for has switched their entire fleet from F-150’s to Tundra’s because of poor quality and low resale values.
Most of the informed public knew oil prices were going to rise, the national debt, credit crunch would put the economy into recession. It seems the big three CEO’s were on the golf course, same as the commanders or the pacific fleet on the morning of Dec. 7, 1941. Why do all the CEO’s still have jobs, they should be canned for lack of forsight! I hope the Volt is more than a “hail Mary” pass in the last seconds of the game.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
I think people forget why GM decided to move forward with the Volt production. It’s all about the price of gas. Do you really think they would have reduced SUV production if the price of oil dropped to $60 a barrel? If off shore drilling produces a major oil deposit and speculators lower their outlooks, why should GM continue their aggressive Volt plan? They could just put the e-Flex projects on a backburner. I hope US gas prices continues to rise 20 cents every quarter. I vote for NO offshore drilling until the Volt, Plug-in VUE and other e-flex vehicles are on show room floors. This will insure the Volts success.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
#48 GM Volt Fan:
Which reminds me, our local PBS outlet re-ran the Click and Clack program on future cars last night.
To me, one of the most impressive segments was the visit to the Rocky Mountain Institute, and the great work they are doing on lightweight cars, particularly carbon fiber. Say what you want about aerodynamics, I mess around with race cars a fair amount, and NOBODY can convince me that weight doesn’t matter.
They showed a video of Katherine Legge’s unbelievable crash at Road America. The fact that she walked away from that approches a miracle, IMHO. That in a 1600# carbon fiber car. Hellooo. Ditto Robert Kubica’s crash in the F1 Sauber at Montreal last year.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
SUCH a diverse group, we are. I respect all of the opinions expressed and even agree with a couple. I’m on record as a DO EVERYTHING guy.
I suspect that when the vacationers return in 5 weeks, they will hem and haw (again) to avoid doing anything (again) until after the election. Then, who knows? I suspect that Nancy’s stated quest to “Save the planet!!” won’t have changed one whit.
JMO,
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
PS How am I to get Lyle on the tube, when BOB and Rick taking all the air-time? (LOL)
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:49 pm
IMHO, gas prices have dropped in the last week or so because the speculators are under intense scrutiny right now. Kind of like when the oil CEO’s get call in to congress and amazingly the price of a gallon of gas goes down. Maybe not, but the timing makes you wonder.
————————————————–
“Its no secret that its do or die time for GM, and the Chevy Volt is the car that will hopefully lead the way to GMs bright electric future.
If this is the case, if there is so much riding on this, why isn’t GM more transparent about the Volt? It seems like they leave themselves open to so much doubt by not saying much, and much of what they do say has negative vibes to it, like batteries cost too much, technology isn’t ready yet, etc, etc.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
#44 George K
“It sounds harsh but, perhaps there’s not enough room for 3 major American car makers. While Ford and GM are having sales and cash problems, I believe Chrysler LLC is in the biggest trouble. That’s only conjecture, as they are now privately held, and don’t need to air their dirty laundry, as the Wall Street companies do.”
I think a even more valid statement is maybe their isn’t room for ANY American car maker.
Think I’m wrong? Check the label on the shirt your wearing…your grandpa never had a label with ‘Made in Haiti’ on it when he was your age.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Chevy Volt: American made, AMERICAN FUELED. I am lined up if the Volt waiting list becomes reality at No. 2256.
Bring us to the fore Lyle if you can. I’m waiting for the day to break away from Mid East turmoil Oil.
Retired US Air Force
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Having served our country in the Armed Forces, reality is, for Americans, we pay $10/gallon when you factor in our protecting the OIL HIGHWAY of the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi peninsula.
Put an end to oil and we put an end to caring about their hatred of our values and culture.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Alt fuel use and mass market EV production priorities IMHO;
-Stop sending out $700 billion per year for foreign oil,
-Stop burning our future pharmaceuticals, chemicals, coatings, solvents, fertilizers etc (oil) for energy,
-Prevent climatological warming,
-Set aside oil preserves for an economy that still functions after other nations have burned all of their oil for quick energy needs.
Burning something so important to our economy and technological base seems insanely shortsighted at this point. If you don’t see that as convincing what about the opinions these guys,
“If we use fuel to get our power, we are living on our capital and exhausting it rapidly. This method is barbarous and wantonly wasteful and will have to be stopped in the interest of coming generations.” N. Tesla 1856 – 1943
“I’d put my money on sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. I wish I had more years left.” Thomas Edison, 1931
GM Volt Fan wrote;
China and India are the main reason for the runup in gasoline prices. Even though gas prices are dropping a little now, they are on an upward trend in the next 10 years. Just wait until all these $4,000 Tata gasoline cars become popular in India and China. There might be millions of these little 20-30 mpg cars in just a few years. If we don’t find 3+ more supergiant oil fields like in Saudi Arabia we might be seeing $10/gallon in 2012 or so (maybe sooner).
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
@ 56 Statik:
>> I think a even more valid statement is maybe their isn’t room for
>> ANY American car maker.
>> Think I’m wrong? Check the label on the shirt your wearing…
>> your grandpa never had a label with ‘Made in Haiti’ on it when
>> he was your age.
Awwww, there’s our resident little ray of sunshine!
BTW, I can’t say I’m sure you’re wrong, either!!
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
58 JBFALASKA
Having served our country in the Armed Forces, reality is, for Americans, we pay $10/gallon when you factor in our protecting the OIL HIGHWAY of the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi peninsula.
Put an end to oil and we put an end to caring about their hatred of our values and culture.
—
Yes sir. This is how I feel also.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
We’re in a big pot of crap. Really. If GM goes down, then Chrysler and Ford WILL GO DOWN. People think the economy is bad now, just wait for the BIG 3 to go down in flames. Then they will wonder Oh Why in the world they did not support the Big 3. They just say that the Big 3 do not have quality line-up so by the natural laws of economy, they were pushed in the direction of the imports like Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. It’s simply not true. While all of us have freedom to buy any product that we want with our money, we’ll pay for all the import cars that were purchased here in NA for years to come not only with our monoey but our economy as well.
There, now that I got all the negative off me, on the positive note, GM may not go down in flames yet. They still have some life in them…we’ll have to keep our fingers crossed. Anyhow, if it’s only going to cost me $1 a day to drive 40miles, I would not mind shelling out the extra 10K for the awesome silent ride, kick-ass fuel economy, the environment, and energy independence…as long as the VOLT lasts me at least 6-8 years.
Go VOLT =)
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
#44 Geirge K & #56 Statik:
Alas, I fear that either could happen, and I confess to having had similar thoughts since the latest terrifying financial imformation has come forward.
Even so, I think that there are paths to survival, even if it takes a lot more ruthless downsizing, or even Chapter 11, as Statik has suggested.
I said here a long time ago that maybe GM was going to have to shrink down to being a much smaller company, and just sell trucks to the core market of people who actually need them. There is clearly going to be a market for same in the future. Whoever innovates and provides the businesses and others, who must have trucks, with superior fuel economy and job perfomance, will have a viable business, albeit much smaller.
And, I firmly believe that there are plenty of niches where superior innovation, engineering, and design can lead to profitable car sales. I hope that the Volt can be a major step in that direction. If the car is so superior that people can see the value for money, they will pay the price.
Also, I believe that, when GM is forced to stop treating cars as a stepchild to trucks and SUVs, and gets serious about raising its manufacturing game, there are useful gains to be made there as well. Correct me if I’m wrong (you all always do), but isn’t it true that one of the cost advantages Toyota and Honda have is that their labor manhours per car are significantly lower? Isn’t it also true that the fully loaded cost per hour of an auto worker in Japan proper is as high as, or higher than, a union GM worker? Isn’t that part of the reason why Japan has exported so many jobs to, admittedly non-union, plants in the US?
This is the USA guys, home of high tech, automation and innovation. Do you mean to tell me that these, even now, proud, multi-billion dollar corporations can’t figure out how to raise their manufacturing game to overcome this competition? If not, then I guess they will end up in the dustbin of history.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Stew@55,
MORE transparent??? You’re kidding, right?
Yeah, that’s it, he’s kidding.
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
#57 & #58 JBFALASKA, #59 Jeffhre, #61 Rashiid Amul, #62 Sam:
Brilliant comments! You guys give me reason to hope for the future. Thanks.
Stunning quotes from Tesla and Edison.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
lol, transparent means being open and forthcoming about the Volt’s progress. Not throw the public a bone here and there mixed with ominous reports about battery technology.
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
It seems to me that the time for EV cars is NOW! Why is everything 3 - 5 years down the road? The Volt coming in 2010? will that really happen or is GM just leading us on? Consumers are looking for better MPG now, EV vehicles would solve many issues for commuters. Why is it that Toyota & Honda are able to get hybrids to market so fast and compared to GM, Ford & Chrysler?
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
#56 StatiK
“I think a even more valid statement is maybe their isn’t room for ANY American car maker.”
I’ve mentioned before that my fear is that GM may not have cut enough of the fat. And if you see more cuts in the future, I will consider that a good thing.
Here’s another thing. In 2004 Toyota came out with their improved HSD (hybrid synergy drive), which seamlessly incorporated 2 drive systems while keeping the engine at its most efficient rpm. While the public didn’t really appreciate the technology, they did appreciate the mpg it afforded. The technology was slow to be accepted, but the mpg enhancement was quickly recognized.
In the case of GM, E-Flex will be very quickly understood by the public, even with so far, not-so-great advertising. Plus, it’s mpg advantage will be even more of a marvel. Some people won’t use ANY gas at all! Wow! Now you’re talking!
So, I believe, it’s not just the Volt that will save GM. It’s E-Flex being quickly replicated, and people like Lutz, who can cut thru the bureaucracy, and aren’t afraid to make a decision, for fear of being wrong. (”if Tesla can do it, I know we can do it”, comes to mind).
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:14 pm
>> Why is it that Toyota & Honda are able to get hybrids to market so fast and compared to GM, Ford & Chrysler?
Because they didn’t want to. In fact, GM even went as far as mocking Toyota & Honda by claiming that hybrids were only a “stop gap” measure, that the future was in fuel-cells instead.
All that time wasted making fun of Prius.
Now they are scrambling to catch up.
I suggest you read about that history, what they hope you won’t ever be curious about. Volt could suffer the same consequences simply by not being aware of what happened before.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Stew,
Transparent for enthusiasts is to talk about anything and everything in real time. Transparent for the auto industry is to show a concept 3 years before production, issue two press releases within six months of delivery and to deliver most of what was promised on time. At least GM is trying. No other major is doing this.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Tagamet,
I agree that Nancy Pelosi will continue to block efforts to allow offshore drilling in the hopes that the Dems will win both the Presidency and Congress in the 2008 elections. For that reason, I believe John McCain will win, as the voters will realize that a Dem federal government will not do the people’s will. Should Pelosi return from recess and pass energy legislation, then that takes a criticla voter issue, which benefits McCain, off the table ahead of the election.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:23 pm
More oil means more pollution.
Smog emission problems will only get worse unless those get addressed too. Those drilling proposals don’t.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Stew@66
Jeffhre explained it well. It’s relative. for example, please tell me everything you know about the next Gen Prius? Maybe I haven’t read enough about it, which would make it “My bad”. If anyone here knows about the next gen Prius, it’s john**** (I forget his number). How about the down low on the new Prius, John?
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Jason@71,
Obama cracked that door open today, re supporting a comprehensive “compromise”. I do hope that we end up with some checks and balances after Nov.
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Our nation is like a drug addict who needs just one more fix and then we will change, we need just enough to get by so we can start to heal. NO, the answer is to slowly wean ourselves off and endure the difficult times so we become stronger when the struggle is over.
Oil is a finite resource. We need to invest in nuclear, solar, water, wind, and thermal energy resources. Drilling is such a short-sighted solution. Sure, we need to remain a powerful nation until these other technologies improve and replace our gas dependence, but off-shore drilling will start to produce at around the time when if we invest now in alternative fuels we will be needing less gas anyway.
Go Volt! Go GM! The U.S. will soon lead again by example through innovation. The world will follow us and we can stop groveling at the feet of the Middle east.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
john@72 said:
“More oil means more pollution.
Smog emission problems will only get worse unless those get addressed too. Those drilling proposals don’t.
Ok, so how do we run our ecconomy between now and when alternatives become ubiquitous (read affordable)? (I think I hear Robin Hood approaching).
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
What else is there to tell about the next Prius? With the design already available for a over decade and some improvements already rolled out to the newer vehicles, it’s just a matter of saying power, size, and efficiency will be increased along with a reduction of production cost. We are already quite familiar with the details of operation.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
John@77,
Now THAT’S transparent! (not).
See ya,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
The recent price decline in crude oil contracts was primarily due to large institutions (banks) closing out their crude oil contracts.
Seems a few banks are having liquidity issues.
I’ll see you in line (maybe).
(Go Volt)
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
NEWS FLASH #1: The new Discovery channel, “Planet Green”, will air an hour-long program called “Focus Earth with Bob Woodruff” that includes an interview with Rick Wagoner and claims it will reveal the new Chevy Volt design today at 6-7PM ET –my guess is they’ll just show part of the front end we all saw months ago, but who knows?
NEWS FLASH #2: CNN just aired a piece at a large Valero gas station near Kansas City, MO that’s selling gas for $1.98/gal to herald the fact they’ll be shutting down the station & pulling the pumps out to “show support for the electric car”! The Volt has stirred up some grass roots action!!!
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
“I couldn’t agree with you more Mr. Wagoner, in fact we’ve got over 32,000 lined up right here.”
That was my first thought too, when I read the title
But uh.. a lot of those 32,000 will be stepping out of the line if the price is too high.
I think they can bring it out cheaper than the current 40k projection..
At a chinese webshop I use, you can buy LiFePO4’s (the lithium ones that are much less volatile as the ones that explode with impact, etc - “safer”) for a pretty decent price.
I did the math and a 16kWh pack of those (voltage/amp combination can be varied by series and parallel wiring schematics) would work out to ~$16,000.
That’s using off the shelf, bought from china, with obvious markup for profit and shipping (the individual batteries are marked as ‘free shipping’, so you can bet the real cost is half of that.)
So let’s say $10,000 for these batteries from china.
GM can surely get a mass produced pack built for the same.
So take a cobalt, add $10,000, and another $5,000 for electric motor, controller, inverter, whatever else is required, and what are you at?
$15 + 10 + 5 = $30,000
*keeps fingers crossed*
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I’m laughing at the mdia in their attempts to paint the economy as black. What I see is 6% unemployment, which traitioanally would be welcomed - job market not too tight so wage inflation under control, and then I see GDP for the past quarter at around 2%. There is a
sharp disconnect between reality and media image massaging. Then I see an Allstate commercil where the boob claims that this sure feels like a recession - I guess so, if everythime you turn on the boob tube some moron is claiming “why it’s the worst since so and so.” No it isn’t. This isn’t even remotely close to a recession, which requires consecutive quarters of negative growth. We haven’t even come cse to the first negative quarter. The Dumb and Dumber Generation’s media cons the public once again.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Stew #66
“lol, transparent means being open and forthcoming about the Volt’s progress. Not throw the public a bone here and there mixed with ominous reports about battery technology.”
*** *** ***
Why not just publish day to day B.O.D. bound progress reports on testing, specs etc on the web? That way Toyota and Honda would be able to save a ton on industrial espionage and product development, as they’ll just download it.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
80 nasaman
THANKS!
Yes here is the link to details of the show.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WoodruffReports/story?id=5492311&page=1
This is a definite, must see tv!
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I couldn’t help but notice the gate in the photo of people lining up to buy a Volt. Is that the very gate that slams shut after the 10,000th person passes it?
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
George K #68
“So, I believe, it’s not just the Volt that will save GM. It’s E-Flex being quickly replicated, and people like Lutz, who can cut thru the bureaucracy, and aren’t afraid to make a decision, for fear of being wrong.”
*** *** ***
George, I hope you’re right. If there’s any truth to the Wagoner resignation rumor, then Fritz takes over. My fear is that he’s a pure accountant like R. Smith who only sees things quarter to quarter, and that’s not the type strategy that sees the Volt through. On the plus side is that true power in a corporation rests with the BOD, and they’ve already put their stamp of approval on the Volt. If they remain committed to it, there’s nothing Fritz can do to change that.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
# 82
The economy is black because we are all sick of the retard in charge and most of his retarded decisions. If we get some intelligent leadership watch how things brighten up.
Interest free financing helps me buy a volt.
Government incentives will help out. I would like getting some of my tax money spent on me for a change instead of other countries or oil tax breaks.
Awaiting my VOLT for my 38 mile commute each day.
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Some interesting and likely incorrect info. appears in the article.
Examples:
1) “And of course, there’s the cost. The projected sticker price of the BMW Hydrogen 7 is more than $100,000. The Chevy Volt will be about $30,000. ”
$30,000? Where did this come from?
2) “In fact, GM said that in just two years the company will introduce a fully electric vehicle called the Volt — a battery-powered car that only uses gas to recharge the battery, not to drive the engine.’
* Well not quite. The engine will supply power directly to the motors and will only sustain the batteries. fully electric? Well, I guess it is for 40 miles, but again not quite right, but close enough.
3) “[The utilities] will have to add capacity,” said Wagoner. “Whether it’s nuclear, whether it’s solar, there is no question that they are thinking about the best way to add capacity that we might generate through this sort of vehicle.”
* Ok, we have had lots of discussion on this issue. Yes, capacity will need to be added at some point, but I think most agree that the existing grid will suffice for quite a long time, before being heavily taxed. Its not like we are going to see a million Volts put into service in a day (I know we all wish this was true).
Anyway, the press seems to need some help writing these articles. You would think they would just run these past Lyle for a litmus test, before publishing them.
Anyway, this should be an interesting show. Get the popcorn ready!
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:00 pm
OK the $15b figure for the quater is acounting math not cash out the door. The burn rate is $1b/mo according to here
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sat-gm-earnings-0802aug02,0,3568975.story
same says chapter 11 (reorganization) would be a very bad idea, chapter 7 (liquidation) is when a company shuts down, 11 is when they hand over their assets and debts and managment control to the court, and a plan is formed (they get to break contracts, cramp down debts, etc). The people who get screwed in a 7 or 11 are the shareholders, in 99% of the cases they get bupkiss. Creditors and Bondholders are treated better (they get something but not par), not sure about employees (a job but not as good)
I also think that talk of the $20k Volt is long gone at this point b/c of increased costs, and the falling dollar. $20k at announcement is going to be $35k at sales time IMHO. Too much has hapened too fast since then for GM to control. The $40k number is high, so $35k can seem reasonable.
When a used prius is $28k (now), $35k for a Volt (soon) looks to me like a bargain. Saving as we speak for a DP.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-07-31-prius_N.htm
Also I think people should stop calling them ‘the Big 3′ they are MUCH smaller than they used to be, and things fortell of even smaller payrolls to come. Could we agree that they are currently ‘the mid 2,4, and 6′????
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
#73 Tagamet
Re: New Prius
Many dealers are sold out of ’08’s, and they are now taking orders for ’09’s.
The Prius will get a refresh for the 2010 model due out in summer 2009. The battery will still be NiMH. Toyota doesn’t yet feel comfortable with Li-ion. The engine will be increased from 1.5 L to 1.6 L, for a little more gusto. The zero to 60 time should decrease from 12 to about 10. MPG is currently 46 combined. That is rumored to go to low 50’s.
There will be a solar panel option!, and the car will be brought out at the Detroit Auto Show. Its loaded price should go from about $29,700 to about $30,700
This info. is best guess so far, as Toyota is very secretive on their future plans.
Below is a rendering based on leaked info.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/08/rendered-speculation-2010-toyota-prius/
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:27 pm
#81 Canhedin
I agree with your cost estimates. They didn’t include savings from removing the mechanical drivetrain but I’d guess you end up around $30K. GM claims no profit even at 40K but I don’t buy that. They could just roll all the development costs into the first 10,000 and claim the cost is higher. This way they can milk for more subsidies which will just go straight into profits. The subsidies won’t actually help develop the technology or get it out any quicker, it’s just an underhand way of sending money to GM. If there was no 5K subsidy, I bet GM would sell the car for 5K less.
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
>> Toyota doesn’t yet feel comfortable with Li-ion. The engine will be increased from 1.5 L to 1.6 L, for a little more gusto. The zero to 60 time should decrease from 12 to about 10.
Strange info. Not sure where that confusion originated.
Toyota’s delay to Li-Ion is very much the same big issue as GM’s.. cost!
Engine size is said to increase to 1.8 liters with turbo to take advantage of the hybrid configuration.
Zero to 60 is already at 10 seconds. Faster simply widens the appeal even more.
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Looks like hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go after all.
They can now use Solar Energy to directly create fuel banks of hydrogen and oxygen ! GM might be spot on with their fuel cell push.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSN3145191020080731
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
#86 Grizzly
I share you concern about Fritz. In addition to his background, he is going to be under intense pressure to reduce costs, so anything requiring investment or development likely will be deferred if not cancelled.
The Volt may survive anyway, for it has such a halo now (thanks in large part to Lyle!) and the BOD has approved, so it’s hard to cancel.. Still, the project is pushing upstream, so it may go very slowly with Fritz. For example, there have to be issues with battery suppliers, e.g., who is going to invest in production capacity, how much, when. These are choices for GM as well as the supplier.
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Did something just happen to get this site’s name to the uninformed masses?
There is so much mis-information and ridiculous rhetoric here even I don’t even have the energy to retort on it.
It is ironic how the last thread seemed to invoke so many valid, diverse points, perspectives and high-technical topics…then we get this one.
Are we featured on TMZ or something?
Tag? Did you get Lyle a guest shot on The Hills?
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Get a grip all you electric nut jobs. EVs will only put a small dent on the need for oil. You can call me Bus Driver because I am taking you to school today. I hope you learned something.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
#44 George K said, regarding Chrysler “Imho, a leading auto co. w/o a major PHEV or electric drive program today is mortgaging their future. ”
Please recall that Chrysler owns GEM auto, which produces BEV vehicles today and sells them now with real customers around the USA. (Google GEM auto) Yes, fully electric. The current models have the big downside of limited speed and range, because of their batteries. GEM is however well positioned to improve their models as soon as better batteries become available. There is no exclusive pathway to heaven, and it may turn out that Chrysler’s plan is the best of the Big 3.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Lyle’s post says “GM sold 1091 hybrid cars in the month for a total of 5.476 for the year to date.”
That’s a tiny fraction of total cars sold, and it seems illogical in that people are intensely interested in mpg, and mpg is better with a hybrid, even a weak one.
Somebody who knows the details, please help me. Why is the fraction of GM hybrids so low. Availability? Cost? Something else?
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
#96 Asphalt IS Oil
Mr. Bus Driver, I think you forgot to let me off at the last stop?
You need to start somewhere. I don’t expect electrics to make an immediate impact, but I do expect in 10 years we will be less reliant on the black tea. Rome was not built in a day. (stupid analogies….I hate throwing them out, but sometimes they are so right)
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:30 pm
RB #94
I agree, but it’s just too early to call it Fritz time. It’s been said many times that accountants are good at running a company in trouble. Remember that both Wagoner and Fritz are accountants. It was Wagoner’s turn around plan of many years ago that created the Car Czar position Lutz holds and it was Wagoner that brought Lutz to GM. The BOD knew that Wagoner was setting GM on a LT strategy to shed diversification and concentrate on cars. This is not something that keeps you in the black quarter after quarter, and certainly not now, and the board knew this.
I have no idea if the rumors are true, but it would make sense to let Fritz run the day to day and let Wagoner oversee the long term. I’m not so sure that Wagoner exiting as a sacrificial lamb would reassure the public/creditors or cast even more doubt about the strategy he set and the BOD approved.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Asphalt is Oil #96
Gas is the overwhelming product from a barrel of oil.
Most vehicles use gas.
Most vehicles are cars.
Most cars travel short trips to the mailbox etc.
Most of these trips can be accomodated by EVs.
Most cars will eventually be EVs.
Therefore, American dependance on foreign oil will be greatly lessened.
Foreign oil will come down in price.
We’ll all be better off.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
“I think people will be lined up to get into this kind of vehicle.”
Because it only seats four and there will only be 10,000 of them, it will be like summer in Disneyland; we’ll wait for our ride.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
#92 John1701a
Sorry the 12 seconds was on the prior gen Prius. The 1.6 L came from the link I provided. Not sure which is right.
As I said, Toyota is pretty much opposite to GM on it’s next gen Prius. Most info out there is speculation. And we won’t really know until we see it.
That’s what first impressed me with GM, is their openness on their PHEV program.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
nasaman@80
Thanks for sharing.
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Statik@95,
Lyle is too squeaky clean for TMZ (I checked) and I don’t even know what The Hills IS, but if you send me the producer’s info, I’ll try. I think I’ve hit about 9 or 10 producers in the last 3 days. As I said, it’s a long shot, but how many people are out there that don’t even know the Volt name to GOOGLE it, which would get them here to the info?
Can’t hurt and I got it OK’d by Lyle first. He too, realizes how much a long shot it is.
I’m pitching it as “One man really CAN make a difference” to push the human interst angle and avoid techno-phobes. If other’s try, please don’t use that phrase, because I don’t want multiple people looking like a “canned” message.
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Hydrogen@93
Interesting, but the catalyst involves platinum, and the process is a long way off. Why not just use the existing grid (for now)?
Be well,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:26 pm
The car shown in the “tease” WAS a four seater….
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
A fraud. The same corner and a good look at the seats in a mock up. Bummer.
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:41 pm
The same epiode back to back. I guess they’re saving emissions.
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:48 pm
@93 Hydrogen
As mentioned the catalyst for the *hydrogen* still uses platinum.
Additionally:
1. Hydrogen can’t be economically transported.
2. Fuel cells are incredibly expensive at $10/W - $30/W (platinum).
3. Hydrogen is dangerous as all get out as described in this NASA guide:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache…lnk&cd=1&gl=us
(E.g., Hydrogen-air mixtures can ignite with very low energy input, 1/10th that required igniting a gasoline-air mixture. For reference, an invisible spark or a static spark from a person can cause ignition.”)
At the moment it’s suffering from the “toos”: Too ineffecient, too expensive, and too dangerous.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I am number 10,360 on the Volt waiting list. I just checked the list (08/02/08) and it’s up to 32,010 people now. Number 32,010 states that she is, “excited..can’t wait”.
I have sent a request to GM via email to offer my services and a test driver for the Volt. Being a Southern California resident with a one-way work commute of 15 miles. I also offered a big down
payment on a Volt.
A recent article stated that GM sales are up 10% internationally. And conversely down in the USA. The China buyer is especially fond of GM products.
The new line of GM’s and Chevys really look good. The 09′ Camaro is to die for at 25 mpg freeway. The new Corvette is unreal, just gorgeous. The Malibu is ‘mid-size luxury’ and great mpg for $20k, a beautiful car. The new PU trucks look manly and are flat out awesome. The new smaller cars are also sweet (35 mpg non-hybrid).
For all of you who are recoiling from the idea of paying $30k for a Volt. Consider buying GM stock now at just $10.23 a share. I expect nearly a double to $19 when the Volt hits the showrooms. I am currently adding to my 500 shares of GM on the dips.
Calculator time: Add the Obama (or McCain) government ‘green’ rebate. And the 2 cents per mile Volt operation cost. And the low maintenance costs (oil changes, tune ups, smog fees…ect).
How much longer will we be sucking down 13 mpg in our huge internal combustion engines? 100 miles at a cost of $32.
Now you know why so many of us are waiting in line.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:35 pm
@Tag
TMZ is a celebrity gossip website and an accompanying television show.
The Hills is a reality soap opera for teenage girls on MTV.
…I hope that explains the point Statik was making.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Lined up?!?! Ya, i’m 8245 on the list. Ship this car aready for 39,999.00, but not over 40K because of the phoenix!!
All is well people, all is well! All the NA 3 are doing fine! Nobody’s going anywhere soon…
GO GM, Go VOLT for 2010!
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
We heard in the 80’s that a car was coming, then again in the early 2000. If GM doesn’t build the Volt, they’ll be no GM. I’m waiting I own a Prius, I’m happy getting 43 MPG, would be happier with a Volt! I drive around 25 miles a day. Just be happy not to buy gas!!! I’m not a super environmentalist, just a super conservative :-), my politcal buddies 5 years ago when I bought the Prius thought I was turning liberal. NOT, I knew the price of gas was going to go up with all those hugh SUV’s. Electric cars are the answer.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:17 pm
This is the time for you over the edge environmental types to realize that its best not to kill the patient with the cure.
GM is on the hairy edge here. If they make it and start pulling down cash hand over fist do not complain. They will deserve absolutely every red cent with the hairy edge risks they are taking.
GM is doing what the environmental movement only could ever dream of since engineering is not wishing these technologies into existence but rather creating them. You environmentalists on the other hand by and large have liberal arts and english literature degrees and seldom have a clue.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:33 pm
If they keep this up GM will have to change its name to Green Motors.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:38 pm
#115 Fred X
Your gross generalizations suggests a lack of refinement. Is the world really so “black and white?” I’m curious, what is an “environmentalist?”
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Ben@112
Thanks, I did know what TMZ was, that’s why they’d never take Lyle. The other one I needed your help on - not too surprized that I hadn’t heard of that one. Both my “girls” are well past their teens.
Thanks,
Tag
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Top seller of cars in the U.S. for last month: GM
Here is the list of all cars sold in the U.S. in July 2008:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080802/BUSINESS01/808020356
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
“Remember that both Wagoner and Fritz are accountants.”
********************************************************************
For your information, Wagoner is a mechanical engineer.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:13 pm
#115 Fred ex
I am sure glad you got this all figured out. Must be nice. LOL
Take Care
Arch
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
#100 Grizzly — I agree on all points.
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Nothing like reading posts here, to hear lots of genuine inanities, non sequiturs, and rank stupidities and the occasional nugget of wisdom.
“The air is polluted”. So what else is new to bitch about? Compared to what? Last year? Its cleaner. Five years ago? Its cleaner, Twenty five years ago? Its much cleaner. Sixty years ago Its MUCH, cleaner. That was when several hundred people in London DIED, from the polluted air! We almost have won the battle of air pollution. Forty years of effort has paid off. And GM technology showed the way. GM invented the catalytic converter.
I LUV the proposition that …Making things scarce, drives the price… DOWN. RIGHT!! Only politics makes men repeat such stupidities and actually mean it.
“I want to hear more “truths” from the likes of Algore and Leonard DiCaprio.” One didn’t graduate from high school. And the other never completed but one science course in his life, and got a near failing D…
English Judges officially called Algore’s junk “crude propaganda, and unsuitable for children in school”. Time has made it irrelevant. GW stopped ten years ago; and AGW never existed. I’m waiting for Al to paradwe wearing a a signboard on Main
Street , “The End is Near” “Repent Now”.
A fundamental principle of investing is:
Buy LOW
Sell HIGH
Don’t be a PIG.
You never go broke taking a PROFIT.
So never look at the current automotive scene as a way to make a lot of money. Invest in Exxon instead, when it’s Maxxed out. Follow the dictum:
Buy HIGH…
And you’ll lose your shirt if you keep expecting to:
Sell HIGHER. Likely you will…
Sell LOW
When looking at results; look first at operating income and cash flow. If there is operating income, and adequate cash flow, and a company can continue operating indefinitely, piling up tax write offs for tomorrow.
I am REALLY encouraged that GM is being so bold. They are building attack weapons; even as they take defensive actions. Defending by getting good conventional product out, like the Malibu, and perhaps the Cruze. “B” and “C” cars are where its at. All else in the car business is essentially
irrelevant.
Its reassuring to see: Suspending major investment in trucks, …until there is something to invest in. Cutting out truck capacity and meanwhile spending in the