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Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?

July 31st, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors

The Toyota Prius has been the undisputed king of green cars so far, selling more than 1 million units worldwide. Indeed GM vice chair Bob Lutz has publicly stated it was in part the Prius’ success that spurred him to launch the Chevy Volt.

The Volt is intended to be a lot of things the Prius is not. It is a sporty, aggressive car, with 40 miles of pure fully dynamic electric drive and an entirely revolutionary drivetrain. As well it has a plug and uses lithium-ion batteries.

Toyota is planning to reveal its next generation Prius at the 2009 Detroit Auto Show, and NextAutos caught some spy photos of it.

These photos confirm previous suggestions that the car would be wider, longer, and more solid looking. These older reports also indicated the car would be more powerful, achieving 160 hp using a 1.8 L up from 1.5 L engine. We have also heard about the solar-panel roof to power the A/C.

But per this new report the plan is to increase the car’s mpg, and to do so, Toyota may actually use lithium-ion as opposed to nickel-metal hydride batteries, despite their earlier pessimism. There is even talk of a plug.

So while the Volt program and GM’s openness about it has been great for us all so far, it looks like the competition is learning something from our enthusiasm as well.

Source (NextAutos ) via (Autobloggreen )

Posted by: Lyle

123 Responses to “Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?”

Cire Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:13 am

Doesnt look anywhere as good as the concept volt, also I cant see their MPG increasing at all just from switching to Li-ion batteries and increasing the engine size. Increasing engine size in a hybrid decreases mileage, unlike in the volt where increased engine size can actuly make it more efficient.

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MarkinWI Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:31 am

On style: I know most hate the current styling of the Prius, but it had an elegance. The Prius in this photo does not. It looks neither elegant nor sporty. It looks disjointed.

On substance: The lithium speculation is new, but not surprising. Cire, wouldn’t increasing the battery capacity (nickel to lith) allow for greater storage and use of electricity, creating more opportunities to run on electricity than petroleum?

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Cire Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:49 am

MarkinWI,

Sorry I forgot this was the next generation Prius, assuming it has plug in capabilities then yes the Li-Ion batteries will help its “mileage”. Wether the larger engine will help or not help the gas mileage when its not on fully electric, it depends on if they continue with the hybrid style car (gasoline engine assited by electric motors) or if it is like the Volt (Electric motor assited by gasoline engine).

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Joe Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:08 am

“Toyota may actually use lithium-ion as opposed to nickel-metal hydride batteries, despite their earlier pessimism.”

********************************************************

Can you ever believe what Toyota says? I don’t think so. If it were GM saying one thing and doing another, the internet would be loaded with negativity. But the slick Toyota can get away with it. We’d better wake up in this country and start supporting our companies or the younger generation will not have jobs.

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Johnnie Paul Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:08 am

That is a much better look for the Prius than in past designs…it is actually quite sexy…from an electrric standpoint of course. I would buy it if it was all electric with a range extender…not as a hybrid.

Johnnie

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:11 am

Volt wannabe?
No comment. Moving on.

Didn’t we already talk about these shots somewhere? The pictures how been out for a couple weeks…It’s ironic that this particular mule has been zipping around for a little while, yet this nextautos.com claims to have a ‘first ever’

Link to ‘older’ shots of same car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cutwater55/2656345832/

Although the tag ‘next gen’ seems to be applied in this thread here and in alot of ‘reports’ on the internet. I find it HIGHLY unlikely the NEXT GEN is just tooling around the US by a random dude, when Toyota (who is notoriously secret) is planning a big ‘hoop-de-doo’ at the Detroit autoshow.

Oddly, between the current ‘08 and the ‘next gen,’ a light ‘freshened up’ model is being introduced to bridge the gap.

Has anyone seen pictures of that? Hrm….no. Yet this car is out there, hrmmm. I wonder if this could be the slight redesign…and not the ‘next gen?’ Which scenario seems more likely?

OH, by the way, here is a link…from Sept 13, 2007. Virtually the same set up. White car, with just the front covered…although labelled Prius ‘facelift,’ so not as sensational. Front end of that and this look the same to me, looks like the same project…just farther along.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/13/spy-shots-toyota-prius-facelift/

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:19 am

#1 Cire says: “… also I cant see their MPG increasing at all just from switching to Li-ion batteries and increasing the engine size. Increasing engine size in a hybrid decreases mileage, unlike in the volt where increased engine size can actuly make it more efficient.”
————————————————————————————–
Actually, the batteries do matter for MPG in parallel hybrids. If the batteries have more power (kW), then they can use the electric motor more for acceleration and the gas engine less. Since the gas engine doesn’t need as much peak power, they can use a more economical Atkinson tuning on a larger engine at lower RPMs to get better economy. Also, if the batteries charge faster, more regenerative braking will be absorbed, which is more efficient.

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Spin Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:22 am

It looks like we will have many choices in several years. The Volt, Prius, Honda’s new hybrid, pure electrics from Nissan and Mitsubishi. All of these vehicles will have different capabilities for our different needs. We will all benefit from the competition by having more choices and availability. The next few years will be very exciting. The article also says there is a possibility the next Prius will also be built in the USA.

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Gsned57 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:38 am

I think my prius has plenty of power now (although my other car is a 1986 VW vanagon and comparing to that a yugo has pep). I don’t think this newer version looks much better than the current prius personally. Also, I won’t be buying any other new car until I can plug it in and run in just electric mode. So if the new Prius is like the kits that extend the all electric range but only up to 50mph no thanks. I drive mostly highway and if I can’t go 70mph all electric I’m not interested.

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brandon Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:48 am

Volt Wannabe LOL.

I would “wannabe” a car that hasn’t been built yet and will only be built in small numbers for the next few years if I was a Prius too.

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Murray Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:48 am

Wider and more solid looking?

Well I just have only one thing to say about this Prius vs the current one….

…..it still ain’t got no aliby!

if you get my drift.

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Brian Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:58 am

More BS.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080731/bs_nm/exxon_dc

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Van Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:04 am

If I recall, the AER of the next gen Prius is 7 miles. What we do not know, or at least, what I do not know, is when the fleet market PHEV Prius comes out, will its AER be increased?

I sure hope the rumor of using the lithium battery is true, because then if the car is modified by a “L-5″ Hymotion kit, the battery draw rate will allow better utilization of plug power.

And to restate what has been posted before, if the new Prius sells for $27,000, and can be modified by “Green chip” Toyota dealers for $10,000 with the Hymotion kit, America will have its first PHEV in 2009.

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johnny o Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:18 am

Volt Wannabe?…there is no Volt until we see them on the road….So how can the Prius be a wannabe.??? DUHHH

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MarkFLL Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:18 am

Yep, looks like a Prius to me.

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RVD Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:20 am

the title is quite opposite from the truth as other pointed out. fanboing is not a good thing.

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john1701a Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:25 am

Since Volt is still in the development phase, it’s really easy to get caught up in speculation. But “wannabe” is really a stretch.

Being a midsize hatchback, the intended use & audience for Prius will never be the same as a compact sedan. Prius will also be available without a plug. It’s that simple.

Stick to the facts… like my real-world data: at 102,188 miles lifetime average is 48.0 MPG

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Rob Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:25 am

#2 MarkinWI

Given the amount of shape- and feature-obscuring cladding, tape, etc., on this mule, I don’t know how much can be said regarding the 3rd gen Prius’s appearance.

Also, I think this particular set of pics was taken in the U.K., given the shape of the traffic signs and the license plates on the other vehicles seen in them.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:34 am

#8 Spin says: “It looks like we will have many choices in several years. The Volt, Prius, Honda’s new hybrid, pure electrics from Nissan and Mitsubishi.”
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I’m not seeing anything like the Volt out there right now.

Aptera has something they call a series hybrid, but then they say the gas engine may come on intermittently right after you charge it. Beside, the Aptera is a niche 3-wheel car, only sold in California, not really usable on snow or ice.

The Plug-In Prius, like the Saturn Vue plug-in, doesn’t really have all-electric range either. The gas engine is required for highway speeds. So these vehicles are marketed as increasing MPG.

Pure EVs have range anxiety, and with good reason. What happens if you come home late one night, space out, and forget to plug in? I know I will. Yes, comparisons can be made to forgetting to fill up with gas, but this is different. Keep in mind:
1) I will have to remember to charge every day, not once a week
2) My typical mindset when I come home tired at night
So this will make it much more likely to forget to plug in than to run out of gas.

I really wish there was another car like the Volt on the horizon. Competition is a good thing. It’s not only good for the consumer. Competition creates more buzz in the market, validates the market model, and forces manufacturers to make better products that more people want. So competition is also ends up being good for the manufacturer.

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Cautious Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:36 am

Off topic, some new laboratory developments on LION cost reductions, see link below. Whether this specific technology works or not, the point is that we’re going to see big battery improvements over the next decade because this is still new technology. Conventional ICE tech has been around so long that it’s harder to dramatically improve it.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/30/microwave-process-could-cut-cost-of-lithium-ion-batteries/

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Jeff Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:40 am

Volt Wannabe? I’m a fan of the Volt, but I do not understand this one.

Production units sold
Volt: 0
Prius: 1 million plus

The Prius has been in the hands of the general public for over 10 years with 1 million plus sold. Just this fact is enough to declare some level of success.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:42 am

#12 Van says: “If I recall, the AER of the next gen Prius is 7 miles. What we do not know, or at least, what I do not know, is when the fleet market PHEV Prius comes out, will its AER be increased? ”
————————————————————————————–
Actually, I would say the Plug-in Prius (like the Plug-in Saturn Vue) will have 0 (zero) AER. That’s because the gas engine is required for highway speeds. So there is no all electric range. They usually advertise these cars as increased MPG.

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ADee Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:42 am

Volt Wannabe?

What fantastic logic you possess. I bet Toyota are just itching to spend untold millions on advertising a car they don’t even offer for sale.

GM will actually have to build and SELL some of these cars, have their reliability stand the test of time for say 10+ years, then IF, big if, it’s successful another manufacturer may be called a wannabe.. until then, the volt is just a nice concept, not a real product, I don’t care what Lutz may say.

How confident are GM themselves about getting the volt out the door working? Just read one of their own statements and gauge for yourself. Still the volt does give Lutz something to babble on about for the next 5 years.. it’s coming soon honest!

“WASHINGTON — General Motors Corp. has told federal regulators they should not count on any fuel economy gains from the upcoming Chevrolet Volt or plug-in hybrids when setting new efficiency standards, saying such vehicles would be built in low numbers through 2015.”

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Sam Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:46 am

I actually am fine with the current Prius looks. It may not say power or agility, but it does have clean lines that says elegance, like someone said before. BUT THIS THING IS UGLY!! Toyota, will you go down the route of 2009 Honda Accord, and ruin up a perfectly good design??

There, now that I got that out of the system, GO VOLT!! No fear; at least not against that Prius. If people truly understand AER difference between the Volt and the Prius as well as the performance difference, the Volt will sell like the hotcakes! At least my wife thinks so (and remember…women are always right…right?); she thinks that looks sell the car first and foremost =D

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GXT Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:47 am

3 Circe,

You wrote about the Prius:
“… it depends on if they continue with the hybrid style car (gasoline engine assited by electric motors) or if it is like the Volt (Electric motor assited by gasoline engine).”

I think that is an unfair characterization of the Prius drivetrain. A Honda or a GM hybrid maybe, but it is not true of the Prius. The Prius can drive electric only, gas only, or a combination of both. I believe it can also charge the battery with the gas engine at any time during the above.

At the risk of starting a flame war, that is why its drivetrain is superior to the Volt. The Prius can have full power at any time; once the Volt is on range extender the range extender is unable to provide full power. Hence the need for the extra large battery with reserves, hence the high price.

Before I get flamed too badly, imagine what the Prius would do with a pack the size of the Volt’s. The non-electric MPG would likely be comparable (we will see), but the Prius would have an electric range 33% longer than the Volt.

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Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:49 am

Personaly I find the distictive Prius look to be unappealing, so much so we bought a Camry hybrid to tide us over till our VOLT gets here.
Dressing the old model up looks like putting lipstick on a pig even with Littium Ion & a plug.

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Bryon Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:55 am

I can see why GM could be wiating till Detriot to unveil the Volt. imagine Toyota unveiling the 3rd gen prius right beside of the revolutionary Volt which will be the first massed produced car that has an electric drive train. GO GM!! We will be ready to buy every Volt you can give us!!

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:55 am

Other news:

GMAC posts 2Q-$2.48 billion loss on big write-downs.

“Residential Capital LLC mortgage unit lost $1.86 billion, its seventh straight unprofitable quarter, after losing $254 million a year earlier. Auto finance operations lost $717 million, compared with a year-earlier $395 million profit.”

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080731/gmac.html?.v=1

(GM owns 49% of GMAC)

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Aspherical Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:58 am

I could never see myself driving in the first gen Prius and I can’t see myself driving the second gen Prius. My next car will have aggressive styling that turns heads and is fun to drive. I am not necessarily talking horsepower; I am talking about the driving experience. The car I have enjoyed the most was only 160hp, but man, was that car fun to drive. I never heard the Prius was “fun”. I just hope the Volt can wow us all…

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:02 am

#19 Cautious Fan says: “Off topic, some new laboratory developments on LION cost reductions, see link below. Whether this specific technology works or not, the point is that we’re going to see big battery improvements over the next decade…”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, I agree with everything you say. Thanks for the link.

I’ve been saying this for a while now. If EESor doesn’t pan out, it may not matter. If Lithium Ion and/or other types of batteries can be made cheap and in high quantity, then that could meet all of our plug-in needs.

And once they start pumping out car battery packs at 10,000 per month, many more people will be innovating ways to cost reduce the process. This is why I support government tax credits for plug-ins. This will help jump-start the market, increase volume, and thereby lower cost more quickly.

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ksuhwail Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:02 am

While there is a certain type of person that would drive a car that looks like the prius does, most people would never touch it with a 20ft poll. Fortunately for the volt, I don’t think Toyota made that poll any shorter.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:07 am

#25 Dr.Science #11 says: “Dressing the old model up looks like putting lipstick on a pig…
————————————————————————————–
Lipstick on a pig… LOL! I’ll have to remember that one.

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TLD Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:10 am

Competition is good for us – I think the Volt blows it away with style though!

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ksuhwail Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:13 am

Arguably, Toyota has not made a driver’s car since the Supra and frankly they have become the appliance king. The current Prius is just a soulless appliance and it looks like the next-gen will be more of the same. We have enough dull boring crap in our lives, please don’t kill our cars.

Please tell me if I am wrong but I would imagine most people (especially men) want the VOLT to be their electric Camaro or Solstice. Not necessarily in big HP but in spirit. I don’t think a design that evokes emotion and is fun to drive is too much to ask for and obviously Toyota does!

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charley497 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:21 am

I see no reason to bad mouth the Prius. If Toyota had not built it we would not be getting the Volt. Don’t get me wrong I’m a big GM fan and want a Volt in the worst way but the Prius is a very good car. If GM had built an electric car and not that tank of a Hummer maybe they would be in better financial shape right now. Just my two cents worth.

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DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:39 am

In the Japanese way Toyota has made it known that the next gen Prius will get better mileage than the existing model despite being slightly larger and using a larger engine. The mileage increase is due to fine tuning the existing drivetrain and has nothing to do with a Lithium battery pack. That pack supposedly will show up in a plug in vesion which we may see in late 2009 for use in cars for selected users (probably utility companies and the like).

These are nice improvement but the big push by Toyota has been to take costs out of the car, the goal being to reduce the permium between a hybrid and standard ICE. In this area they are being pushed by Honda, which is claiming they have the premium down to a few thousand dollars. (Honda is releasing its direct competitor to the Prius early next year).

Personally I think GM has a much better technology. In this case the Japanese approach, which is often very conservative, has not lead to the big leap in technology that GM is implementing in the Volt.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:42 am

#24 GXT says: “At the risk of starting a flame war, that is why its drivetrain is superior to the Volt. The Prius can have full power at any time; once the Volt is on range extender the range extender is unable to provide full power. Hence the need for the extra large battery with reserves, hence the high price.

Before I get flamed too badly, imagine what the Prius would do with a pack the size of the Volt’s. The non-electric MPG would likely be comparable (we will see), but the Prius would have an electric range 33% longer than the Volt.”
————————————————————————————–
A lot of what you say is true, but there are some things I think you miss.

Yes, a series hybrid design like the Volt must rely on a large battery with reserves for peak power, but this is also what gives you the 40 miles of all-electric range, so that’s not a bad thing.

With that in mind, let’s go ahead and imagine what the Prius would do with a pack the size of the Volt’s.

For starters, the Prius would be heavier. The transmission that links the gas engine and electric motor to the drive train isn’t free. By comparison, the Volt has no transmission. The electric motor has high torque over a very wide range of RPMs, so there is no transmission required. There would also be no transmission power losses for the Volt.

Also, remember that the Prius uses a smaller electric motor that uses magnets in it’s core. This is generally called a brushless motor. Toyota has come up with a fancy marketing name for this, but it’s still a magnet based motor, which is much harder to scale up for higher power. By contrast, the Volt uses an induction motor with no magnets. These motors are much more complicated to control, but they are also much more efficient in high power applications. For example, the Volt’s electric motor produces 4 times the power of the Prius electric motor, and weighs only slightly more.

Another thing to keep in mind is that larger electric motors are actually more efficient than smaller electric motors. This is the exact opposite of gas engines, so it’s a little harder to get used to.

In addition, remember that since the Volt’s gas engine is not connected to the wheels at all, there are all sorts of optimizations possible in terms of engine tuning and RPM control. So this should increase efficiency as well.

Yes, there will be some inefficiency in the Volt due to the added mechanical / electrical conversions. But the efficiency of these conversions at high power is quite high. I believe the efficiency gains of the Volt listed above will more than offset the efficiency losses of the extra mechanical / electrical conversions.

Remember that the series hybrid design has been used successfully in train locomotive designs for many years, so it must be efficient or they would have changed to a parallel hybrid years ago. It’s only now that smaller lighter lithium batteries are available that the series hybrid design can be successfully scaled down to a car.

So I disagree with you assessment that the Prius would have an electric range 33% longer than the Volt. I think the range of the Prius would be the same or probably less than the Volt.

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THOM Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:42 am

Wanna be?? CMon!

1) japan is a leader in electronics
2) the electronics to make a volt is much easier to design than the direct drive / electric combined drivetrain that is in the prius

Q: So why doesnt toyota take the easy way out and make a electric car with a genset (like the volt)??

A: Because they TESTED the idea and found it didnt work (from an efficiency standpoint)

Look at GM lame attempt a a hybrid …the new malibu that cant acheive the gas mileage my 89 corolla did.

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Rudy Z Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:45 am

Making the gas enginee in the Prius bigger is probably a mistake too.

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Joy Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:48 am

#4 – Joe
Can you ever believe what Toyota says? I don’t think so. If it were GM saying one thing and doing another, the internet would be loaded with negativity. But the slick Toyota can get away with it. We’d better wake up in this country and start supporting our companies or the younger generation will not have jobs.

*************************************************

Couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, the job loss/healthcare loss has already hit many of my friends in industries related to the American auto industry & they are certainly not the younger generation. The coming generations will indeed pay for today’s failure to support our own industries. We’re proud to buy tomatoes from local business, but can’t seem to maintain that philosophy when it comes to the second largest purchase that most of us ever make.

The link below is for info on a news special regarding GM that is coming up on 8/6 which is supposed to contain references to the Volt. Let’s hope the media is kinder to GM than it usually is.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25921075/?__source=aol%7Cheadline%7Cquote%7Ctext%7C&par=aol

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Bernie Torbik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:53 am

Volt Wannabee? I don’t think so. If it wasn’t for the Prius and other hybrids, GM and the rest of Detroit would still be building gas-guzzling monstrosities. It wasn’t until the Prius changed Detroit’s warped view of the energy situation and what many US consumers wanted that the Volt even had a chance.

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DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:55 am

#24 GXT – “The non-electric MPG would likely be comparable (we will see), but the Prius would have an electric range 33% longer than the Volt.”

The problem here is that the Prius simply wasn’t designed for such a large battery pack. It’s not that easy to just stick a larger battery pack into a Prius. Having had the opportunity to hear a presentation by one of the guys who was one of the principle designers, their entire design philosophy was driven by the notion that lithium is and would be a scarce commodity and that battery costs would go up through time.

Consequently the Prius has a very complicated parallel drivetrain which requires a lot of interaction at a lot of different points. It’s just not as elegant (simple) as the serial drive train GM has for the Volt.

GM has also come up with a better car from a marketing standpoint. Whatever the Volt looks like it won’t look like an “eco car.” And Lutz’s push for raw performance — the 0-60 in 7 seconds — will give the Volt an appeal beyond the green crowd (I have nothing against that crowd BTW, but it’s just one segment of the population).

If GM can build a quality product — and in my mind that’s an “if” because while GM has closed the quality gap with Toyota there is still a gap — it will blow the Prius away and redefine what an electric car can do, in much the same way as Tesla is doing.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:56 am

#35 DonC says: “In the Japanese way Toyota has made it known that the next gen Prius will get better mileage than the existing model despite being slightly larger and using a larger engine. The mileage increase is due to fine tuning the existing drivetrain and has nothing to do with a Lithium battery pack”
————————————————————————————–
Actually, EnerDel says that using a Li/Ion pack in a conventional (non-plug-in) hybrid can increase the mileage significantly. This makes sense, since the batteries and electric motor can take over more of the peak power demands for accelerating and driving uphill, as well as absorbing more power for braking.

EnerDel is aggressively marketing their Li/Ion pack for conventional hybrids based on these efficiency improvements.

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Cire Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:12 am

24
GXT

I was talking about the the MPG for the volt style drivetrain vs the prius style drivetrain. In theory the Volt’s drivetrain will ALWAYS be more efficient. The major advantage is that the engine in the prius has to run very inefficiently when at certain engine RPM’s, and the transmission losses. The volt always runs at efficient RPMs and has no transmission, just the ~ 5% loss in the electric motor.

Also about the power, the prius’s motors are weak compared to the volts, you cant even compare them.

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Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:13 am

Yea, I agree with the various posts that Lyle definitely had his Volt fanboy hat (and blinders) on when he wrote this blog. It’s full of hot air

Lyle wrote “Volt is intended to be a lot of things the Prius is not. It is a sporty, aggressive car”…. From what we’ve seen of the Volt’s skin so far, I would NOT call it sporty at all… it looks like too many other American automaker designs, which to me is a bad thing. In addition what does Lyle mean by “aggressive”? Is he refering to the styling? I don’t think he’s refering to the performance from what we’ve heard of the 0-60mph performance. Top speed isn’t an issue as we all now know after Al Gore’s son was pulled over a year or two ago being clocked going 100mph in his Prius.

Lyle wrote: “(Volt) with 40 miles of pure fully dynamic electric drive and an entirely revolutionary drivetrain”. First what is this new term “fully dynamic” in refering to an electric drive train? Seems meaningless to me. And to call the Volt’s drivetrain “entirely revolutionary” is a major exaggeration. EV drivetrains are 100+ year old technology, even series battery electric drivetrains are that old, Porsche is credited with being the 1st, see http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-vehicle-porsche.html … and even if you don’t want to look at the older ones… look at the “Volvo ECC” prototypes from 1992 (google it) which GM copied for it’s 1999 series hybrid (aka “range extended”) EV1 prototype (both used a turbine engine for ultimate flex fuel).

Lyle wrote “These photos confirm previous suggestions that the (new Prius) … more solid looking”…. what does this mean or imply? I’ve never heard anyone say the current prius does NOT look solid! Nor have I seen anyone say the Volt (which doesn’t exist) “looks solid”.

Lyle also seems to be trying to paint Toyota with the “flip flopper” brush… and while they have… GM hasn’t been immune from that either… from “comfortably under $30k”, a 1L engine/generator, a 640 mile combined range, etc (now it’s $40k+, 1.4L engine, 300 mile range, etc).

As for styling… I like the look of the current Pirus… if the above is indeed the new styling it’s biggest flaw is that it looks like too many American brand cars

Something to also not forget… the Prius sits 5 (2 front, 3 back)… the Volt sits only 4 (2 front, 2 back).

In any case, the current (non-plugin) Prius still is nothing to write home about… it only gets 50mpg in 2008… GM’s Geo Metro got 50mpg 20 years ago! It’s still sad that in 20 years that we’ve stagnated!

Lastly though, the Volt is still “revolutionary” even if it’s drivetrain is not! It should be the 1st mass produced battery EV (with or without a “range extender”) on the market! A good start for the industry!

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:14 am

#37 THOM says: ”
1) japan is a leader in electronics
2) the electronics to make a volt is much easier to design than the direct drive / electric combined drivetrain that is in the Prius

Q: So why doesn’t Toyota take the easy way out and make a electric car with a genset (like the volt)??
A: Because they TESTED the idea and found it didn’t work (from an efficiency standpoint)”
————————————————————————————–
I disagree.

1) Japan is not the leader in electronics. Japan is the leader in manufacturing consumer electronics (Sony, Panasonic, etc.). The U.S. is the leader in computer electronics and software (Intel, Microsoft, Apple). South Korea is the leader in memory and LCD displays (Samsung, LG). So you can’t say one country is the leader in electronics.

2) The AC Induction motor used in the EV1, Tesla Roadster, and EV1 is much more complicated than the magnet based motor in the Prius. Many other systems in the Volt are more complicated as well. Note that this is mostly firmware complexity.

Toyota’s mantra is evolutionary innovation. They are good at incremental changes in efficiency, reliability, and cost. So a revolutionary design like the Volt wouldn’t be something they would typically go after. I doubt Toyota ever seriously tested a series hybrid.

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Van Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:27 am

Hi Dave G @21, if Congress passes a national speed limit of 55 or 60 MPH, the Prius will be able to travel at “highway” speed in all electric mode. The next generation Prius will have a top EV speed of 60+ MPH.

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kent beuchert Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:39 am

I see the Prius designers aren’t looking to improve their car’s plain Jane looks.
Of course, the solar roof panel cannot power any AC system – perhaps it might power the blower fan. Isn’t the AC compresor powered by the engine in the Prius?

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kent beuchert Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:42 am

If the next gen Prius can travel electric at highway speed, then it will have to be a plug-in to gain anything by doing so – right now the battery size would only be enough to get it to 65MPH, not to keep it there for more than an instant.
It’s obvious that Toyota still doesn’t understand that plain hybrids make ZERO sense when plug-ins are around the corner.

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noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:46 am

#4 Joe & #39 Joy:

I totally agree with you on the jobs issue. Thanks for raising it. It is one of the main reasons I keep coming back here. Believe you me, they truly understand this concept in Japan.

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Aspherical Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:47 am

#44 Jeff M

I do agree that Lyle and many of us do put our “fanboy hats” on. The problem is that GM got many people excited when the Volt concept rolled out at the Detroit Auto Show. A car that “outperforms” a Prius. A car that looks sexy enough to turn heads and they will say, “Hey! There’s a Chevy Volt!” Since the production car hasn’t been shown yet, we are still excited and hopeful. My point is that our “fanboy hats” will stay on until we see that production car silently roll out onto that stage…

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:48 am

I would wager ‘even money’ we will get some ‘good Volt news’ very shortly (less than 24 hours).

Much like the ‘annual meeting fiasco,’ GM reports quarterly results tomorrow. The cost of GM ’surprising’ us with relatively decent sales numbers (on the backs of practically giving cars away with cash incentives, too high residuals and 0% financing) will come to bare in the ‘bottom line’ tomorrow…big time.

Expect GM to lose around 3.5 billion-ish for the quarter, but the good news for us we should get another ‘don’t look behind the curtain moment’ as GM will probably try to distract/awe us by some fantastical development on the Volt/Camaro…that may or may not actually be real (see Wagoner’s ‘we will be showing you the Volt production car in the very near future’ at the last financial mixer).

/get ready for another fun 24 hours
(Naturally GM is up right now, lol. Why not? They are only going to report a loss for the QUARTER of about half their market cap)

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RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:51 am

#27 Statik

When does GM report their qtr?
Are the GMAC results consolidated into GM?

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:53 am

#52 RB

Lol…good timing. See #51.
Tomorrow before bell is offical release. Conference call at 9:30. Sales and production call at 2:00pm.

/get your tin foil hat ready

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Prius owner Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:54 am

Sorry, but all the fixating on the styling of the Prius sounds so superficial to me. You would rather drive a cool looking car than one that is helping to make the world a less polluted place? People complaining about the styling just sound like people who didn’t buy one when they had the chance and are bitter at the gas mileage they are getting. Ditto comparisons to the Metro — that was a totally different car, completely impractical. The Prius is not an “econobox” — it is a big, roomy hatchback that comfortably seats five people (as John 1701 pointed out), and comparing the car to the Metro is just wrong.

And I agree with all the posts taking issue with the “Volt wannabe” comment. That kind of talk sounds really jealous, out of left field, and out of touch with reality.

Other posters have pointed out that GM is finally waking up and smelling the coffee, and never would have done anything if not for the Prius.

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Spin Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:59 am

#18 Dave G

My point is that all of these vehicles will have different capabilities for our different needs. I know some people that have a commute of less than 10 miles, one way. These folks would be fine with a pure electric that has a 100 mile range and they would only have to charge once a week!! For someone like yourself that will have a hard time remembering to plug in, a vehicle with a range extender would be prudent. I hope you don’t forget to stop at the gas station…..

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:07 am

#52 RB

Further to your query. GM was expected to come in at about 1.3-1.6 billion initially.

However, with GMAC said today under it’s ‘risk-sharing’ agreements it expects about 1.5 billion from GM+writedowns+production shutdowns that cause laboUr disputes that had to be settled+supplier issues/bailouts, the total ‘added bonus’ number is probably 2.0 to 2.5 billion.

/vive le ‘one time writedown’…for like the 10th time

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RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:13 am

#53 Statik
Thanks. I’ll be waiting. [ Tin foil is ready.]

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Cautious Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:16 am

#43 Cire

I like the serial concept better than parallel, but I think there’s a additional loss that you didn’t mention. Converting electrical energy into chemical energy and back into electrical energy will create losses in a serial that a parallel doesn’t have. I couldn’t find good data on how efficient this conversion is, if someone has that please post.

Question: Does 100% of the electrical energy go through the battery or is there a “bypass” for when the motor is running for some electrical power to skip the battery and go straight to the motor. It seems silly to run all the power through the battery since this cycles the battery a lot and there are conversion losses.

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john1701a Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:24 am

41 >> Consequently the Prius has a very complicated parallel drivetrain which requires a lot of interaction at a lot of different points. It’s just not as elegant (simple) as the serial drive train GM has for the Volt.

The difference between the PSD in Prius is trivial to the Volt design in comparison to an automatic transmission.

Don’t forget the goal is to replace traditional guzzlers, not to quarrel among vehicles that use battery-packs & motors.

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RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:24 am

#58 Cautious
The Volt’s electrical hookup was last described as parallel. I understand that to mean that current can go from the ICE-driven generator directly to the electric drive motor, when the ICE is running. No doubt the logic is what you said.

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Van Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:24 am

Hi Kent @ 48, you logic is inescapable, it makes no sense to offer a plug-in with a 2.6 KWH battery. Therefore the speculation that the PHEV version will sport a larger battery at post #12. The rumor is that the next Generation Prius AC will not only continue to be electric but will be powered in part by solar panels.

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DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:39 am

#42 Dave G – “Actually, EnerDel says that using a Li/Ion pack in a conventional (non-plug-in) hybrid can increase the mileage significantly.”

Of course you’re correct. I was talking about what Toyota is actually going to do, not what it might do or what a third party might do. Toyota is going to put the Li-ion pack in the plug-in, not the standard. Could be a cost issue.

The problem with the Prius is that it’s not really an electric car, it’s more a car with an electric transmission. EnerDel claims a 50% increase in mileage but that very much depends on your driving. The more freeway driving you do the less you’ll see your mpg increase. And while going from 50 mpg to 75 mpg seems impressive, keep in mind that this amounts to about 6 gallons of gas a month. That’s not nearly as good as going to zero gallons like you could with the Volt.

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:39 am

Just curious.

I want to be sure on this, but, when we are talking about efficiencies between ‘future Volt’ and ‘future Prius’ and things like expected range, parallel vs serial–which is better…isn’t the main factor the SIZE/DRAW of the electric drive motor?

I mean really? If we have two identical Volts…and one has a ‘50HP equivalent’ electric motor and the other has a ‘150HP equivalent’ electric motor…is it not still true the the 50HP should be the engine that will produce a far greater range in ‘the real world’?

I understand just because greater capacity is there, it is not utilized fulltime in a electric engine like you would in a traditional ICE…so theoretically only weight could come into play ‘on paper.’ But this is the real world, people are driving these things.

Further to that line of thinking, I would wager alot of the efficiency would also be in the setup/computer control of the output curve as well? This performance curve could potentially minimize the differences between engine variations as well…as a corollary to my first point.

If your car is ‘geared for aggresiveness’ or ‘geared for distance’ would that not be the more important decider to range/efficiency over platform type…by a long shot?

I really don’t know…it’s not my forte at all. Just thinking off the top of my head. Am I making a bad assumption here?

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noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:42 am

#53 Statik & # 57 RB:

Tinfoil is all right, as far as it goes, but I much prefer the pyramid hat worn by one of our customers. It is fabricated out of brazing rod, with a very comfortable looking headband assembly bult in.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:48 am

#58 Cautious Fan asks: “Question: Does 100% of the electrical energy go through the battery or is there a “bypass” for when the motor is running for some electrical power to skip the battery and go straight to the motor.”
————————————————————————————–
There is a “bypass”.

The generator, batteries, and electric motor are all on the same bus. In other words, they are physically wired together. So any excess current that the generator produces that is not consumed by the electric motor will naturally be absorbed by the battery, increasing it’s charge. Similarly, if the electric motor draws more current than the generator is producing, the batteries will naturally discharge.

In EV mode, the gas engine is off, so the battery discharges. When the battery gets down to 35% the gas engine kicks in. After that, the Volt controls the power output of the gas engine to match the electric motor as closely as possible. So most of the current goes directly from the generator to the motor, and doesn’t go through the battery.

But when you accelerate or go uphill, the max power of the gas engine and generator is not enough to meet peak demands, so the battery will discharge somewhat. Similarly, when you let off the accelerator, brake, or go downhill, the batteries will charge a little.

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DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:54 am

#44 Jeff M

Points well taken.

#54 Prius Owner – “Sorry, but all the fixating on the styling of the Prius sounds so superficial to me”

It’s true. Completely superficial. On the other hand a lot of people won’t buy a Prius because of the way it looks. The looks don’t bother me but I have noticed that a lot of young women drivers don’t want to be caught dead in it. The Volt offers a different look and that expands the market for EVs. And that’s a good thing. (There is some Toyota bashing that goes on and that’s not a good thing. As you point out the success of the Prius no doubt encouraged GM to actually do something in the area).

The other point which you may be missing is that this is not so much about a single car as it is a technology. The Volt technology is really scaleable and can easily be used in a performance Cadillac or a CUV or a SUT. Again, this will expand the market. The hybrid system used in the Prius is not so easy to scale.

Personally I hope all these hybrids are just transition cars on the road to BEVs with 300 mile ranges and quick charging stations. It’s just that as a transition car the Volt is a more exciting option from a technology standpoint.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:57 am

#63 Statik asks: “If we have two identical Volts…and one has a ‘50HP equivalent’ electric motor and the other has a ‘150HP equivalent’ electric motor…is it not still true the the 50HP should be the engine that will produce a far greater range in ‘the real world’?”
————————————————————————————–
Larger electric motors are generally more efficient than smaller electric motors. This is the exact opposite of gas engines.

If you constantly floor the accelerator and brake hard, your efficiency will suck. But if you use a larger electric motor and drive normally, your efficiency will be better than a smaller electric motor driven the same way.

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KC_Eric Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:57 am

Alls I want to know is when I can get me an electric Camaro. Ahh yeah

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brandon Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:58 am

Ok on a different note real quick, maybe some experts can answer this question for me. Instead of the 1.4l engine on the Volt, what if they used a much smaller rotary engine. Such as a .5l rotary engine. Rotary engines give better HP/displacement ration. The 1.3L engine in the RX-8 gives 232HP. So if the ratio would be the same a .5 or .6 should give about 115hp? This would drastically reduce the weight, giving longer EV-only range. I am not sure about the fuel efficiency, I know the rotary is less efficient, but if it is half the size of the RX-8 it should get better gas milage I would think. I am not sure, anyone got any insights onto this?

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THOM Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:59 am

Why wait?? You can buy electrical vehicles now from zap AND gem http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121746229279198963.html?mod=yhoofront

OR if you are handy MAKE YOUR OWN FROM A KIT FOR LESS THAN 10k AND 2 WEEKS LABOR http://www.fveaa.org/

OR
WAIT TILL LATE 2011…NO 2012, NO 2013 TO TRY TO GET YOUR HANDS ON A “LIMITED” PRODUCTION RUN THAT WILL BE GIVEN TO HIGH PROFILE PEOPLE.

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Mark Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Unless the new Prius can match the Volt in MPGs, then it’s not a wannabe. It’s not even close..

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THOM Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:09 pm

#67

Larger electric motors are generally more efficient than smaller electric motors. This is the exact opposite of gas engines.

This statement is really not correct: Running a higher horsepower motor at lower RPMS is not more efficient. In addition, add the extra losses in the speed control and extra weight and you are really at a huge loss.

Higher horsepower motors are generally more efficient at max rated HP and speed ( but only by a few percent)

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Cire Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:12 pm

69
Brandon

How good the engine is based on how efficient it is, ICE’s in cars usualy get about 20% of the energy of the gasoline to the wheels. I think the Rotarly is slightly more efficient, but theres also lots of problems with maintinance, and pollution with rotaries such as burning lots of oil. I wouldnt expect them to mix it with early EV’s, but maybe as the technology gets more proven it may show up, who knows.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:13 pm

#69 brandon asks: “Instead of the 1.4l engine on the Volt, what if they used a much smaller rotary engine?”
————————————————————————————–
Rotary engines produce a lot of peak horsepower and torque in a very small package, but they are not very efficient.

For the Volt, peak horsepower and torque are irrelevant, since the electric motor and batteries provide peak horsepower. The gas engine in the Volt only provides average power – about 70 horsepower. The electric motor and batteries provide around twice that power for accelerating and going up hill.

The 1.4L Volt engine will be tuned with an Atkinson cycle, which optimizes efficiency at the cost of peak horsepower and torque.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

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Brian Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm

#54,
“You would rather drive a cool looking car than one that is helping to make the world a less polluted place?”

Why must I choose one or the other? Why can’t I have both? Is that too much to ask for?

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brandon Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:15 pm

#73. I was reading that the earlier Rotary engines like int he RX-7 had has seal problems, but it seems to not be as big as an issue in the RX-8 which is what allowed oil to get into the engine. But I believe if you put a really small Rotary as the range extender you will have an increase in electrical range, maybe more efficiency in sustaining mode.

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THOM Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Prius looks like it does since the emphasis is on a overall efficiency and safety. Ie max interior room, with the least aerodynamic drag and still able to pass US crash ratings.

I would bank the looks of the volt will not even resemble the silver “prototype” GMs been flaunting.

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brandon Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Ok the rotary engine gives it 24mpgs on a 1.3L. So if i was to cut the engine size in half to .6L would it be 48 mpg? If so, what car gets 48mpg with 100hp, without the use of a electric. But the use of this would be as a range extender, where it would just idle at a constant RPM to charge the battery. I think the benefit of using this would be the reduction in weight..

By the way, the HP is needed to turn the generator to produce electricity.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:22 pm

#72 THOM says: “Running a higher horsepower motor at lower RPMS is not more efficient.”
————————————————————————————–
Who said anything about lower RPMs? There is no transmission in the Volt.

Running a larger electric motor is more efficient than running a smaller electric motor at the same RPMs.

Again, this is the exact opposite of how it works with gas engines, so it’s hard to accept at first.

Note that it takes a ton of control code to run an AC induction electric motor at optimum efficiency, but when you scale it up and modify the firmware accordingly, it’s actually more efficient.

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Bryce Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:30 pm

looks like…….a regular old prius. The headlights are an improvement though, but its behind looks like it got EVEN bigger and uglier. Seems it has put on a few pounds in its old age. : )

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:38 pm

#67 Dave G

“Larger electric motors are generally more efficient than smaller electric motors. This is the exact opposite of gas engines. If you constantly floor the accelerator and brake hard, your efficiency will suck. But if you use a larger electric motor and drive normally, your efficiency will be better than a smaller electric motor driven the same way.”

Ok, so basically my assumption is right. That the two engines rated as peers are basically the same…well, maybe the larger engine may have some efficiency bonus, which may overcome the probably weight gain.

However, when factoring in that human beings are driving these things, the larger engine would draw more more and effectively have less range?

Lets assume one engine was equivalent to 70HP and one was 120HP, in the same plaform on a 16kwH pack, and we get a ‘average Joe’ off the street, lets say 35 year old male for example.

If the baseline (complete straightline, steady speed) is a range of say 80 miles, what would you estimate the difference would be factoring in the human factor, say 60%city/40%highway?

70HP-60 miles?
120HP-50 miles?

This is the kind of ‘real world’ numbers that have always escaped me with EVs. We know to a ‘T’ how it works with ICE, but I’ve never seen any info like this on eleectric propulsion.

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RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:38 pm

#64 noel park

Sounds great.
Please send the web site or email address so that I can order one.

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Morgan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:41 pm

79 Dave G:

And oddly enough. GM has vastly more experience, efficiency, and design of electric motors than Toyota or any of the other players jumping into the game.

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:42 pm

FYI:

A cool thing about the Volt will be you will be able to go in reverse at the same full speed that you can in drive!

So, now in the James Bond movies where they try to out run a vehicle while backing down a narrow ally, they will actually be able to do it. That assumes you had lots of practice and those donkey carts get out of your way.

Go Volt! I wanna drive in reverse down the highway….Let’s see the Prius do that.

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DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:50 pm

#63 Statik:

For electrics, bigger is better. The bigger your A/C induction motor is, the more efficient it is when operating at steady state. Also (more importantly) much more energy can be recovered on braking.

As far as “flooring it” goes, there would be a difference between a 150hp motor and a 50hp motor. The systems providing higher would probably be less efficient at higher power levels. However, the difference would probably be pretty small, maybe a few percent while delivering that power. This should be more than offset by the huge amount of additional energy that could be recovered on braking.

So, pretty much sky’s the limit on electric car horspower as far as the motors are concerned. To a large extent, the limiting factor is that the batteries need need to be designed in such a way as to handle very large power requirements.
Which translates into cost, really.

If you look at something like a 4WD Toyota Hybrid Highlander, that thing is simply ooooozing with electric motors, what with it’s extra 50kW motor on the rear wheels, however, the traction battery is limited to just 45kW output, so you can never get the full benefit of the “sum” of those motors, for either recharging or accelerating.

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 12:58 pm

#85 Dave P

Interesting factoids. I guess that seems reasonable…although now I’m not sure why the Volt doesn’t have alot better estimated 0-60 times, lol.

I assume it has something to do with the discharge capability of the battery? But saying that…can’t some kind of cap be used to augment the acceleration for a couple second burst?

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DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:01 pm

It’s funny, but that car in the picture looks like like a Honda Civic than a Prius.

I know a lot of people here dislike the Prius looks, but I see a lot of them around Silicon Valley. I don’t dislike them, maybe I’ve gotten used to them, but I will say they are extremely distinctive. You can’t mistake it for anything else, which I believe is what Toyota was really shooting for with the looks. Of course, you can’t mistake an Aztek for anything else, either.

Also, not to start a flame war, but I always like to point out to all those that claim the Prius is a BIG car, it isn’t. The rear seat headroom is realy, REALLY poor, rendering the entire back seat unusable by anybody over 6′. It’s also not a performance car, anything in the 0-60 range of 11 seconds (OK, one mag got in the high 10’s) is just not anywhere near performance territory.

Even calling the \Volt a performance car is a bit of a stretch, but at least with it’s all electric drivetrain, there’s some advantage to being able to simply give it full throttle from every stoplight with hardly any effort or impact to your mileage. THAT is seriously practical performance, I’ll certainly grant. Your experienced “average” performance is going to be extremely high in the \Volt, compared to gas powered cars with higher raw performance.

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:03 pm

85 DaveP

Would a good solution to the issue of the batteries needing to handle the high power rates (charging & discharging), be to use capacitive storeage. The capacitors would need to hold enough Joules (how many Farads would be reasonable?), to kick start the car for accelerations and also absorb the energy of braking.

This allows your batteries to do what they do best, and store large volumes of energy, and the smaller & faster capacitors can do what they do best, which is nearly instantaneous charge/discharge.

Maybe this is already in the Volt design?

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DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:06 pm

#86 Statik

Actually, I don’t know why the 0-60 times claimed for the Volt are so low. I suspect weight is the culprit with those batteries and a conventional engine and generator, that’s a lot of extra mass to pull for only 160hp. The regular 145 hp cobalt gets about the same rougly 8.5 second 0-60 as is projected for the Volt.

What I really don’t understand is for $40k, they should bump it to 200hp or more. The increase in cost for the motor and electronics would be tiny compared to the prices they’re talking. The A123 batteries could handle the extra power with probably no difficulty.

My guess is they set the targets VERY conservatively for their first attempt. I fully expect “Volt 2″ to blow the doors off “Volt 1″ (if they’re around long enough to build it, of course

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:07 pm

#88 JEC

Hehe…good thought. We seem to think alike. Not sure we are right…but we are on same path.

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Bill Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:08 pm

I currently own a Prius and I did not buy it for looks. After test driving one and being impressed with the interior room, the overall capacity, the driving experience, etc., I sold my BMW M5 (400 HP – 17 MPG premium gas) and got the Prius. The Prius has more interior room than the M5 did (which is built on the 540 platform). If the Volt was available today with the specs GM is giving, I would buy one in a heart beat – even at 40K. But it isn’t and Lutz continues to make comments that makes me think it may never arrive. There is absolutely no reason to believe GM at this point – remember this is the company that thought the Hummer was a good idea. I still cannot understand why anyone would buy one of those.

p.s. The Volt is the Wannabe here – a Wannabe Tesla / Prius combo for the masses – but really just a Wannabe in production.

I truly hope GM brings this car to market and soon!

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Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Side note:

Despite press releases…and faxes to comfort dealers, that were kind of making me look bad for saying GM wasn’t going to be in the leasing business anymore the last week or so.

GM is apparently about to announce that it will “no longer offer lease deals on the Yukon, Yukon XL, Suburban, Tahoe, all full-size trucks, Envoys and TrailBlazers as of next Friday August 8th. The General’s captive finance arm will also raise the “money factor” (the leasing rate) on Cadillacs by two percent” (TAC)

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:13 pm

90 Static

Yeah. I had a laugh as I read your post too.

Sounds like the right thing to do, but not sure about the technical issues this might bring about. Is it as simple as a couple diodes, or does this make the whole control system crazy?

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Brian Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:14 pm

#70,

Surely you are kidding. Those are not options at all. Nothing on either site, Zap or GEM is worth shiz-nit. Perhaps if I worked in my own community, sure, but no way I am driving what either site has available on anything resembling a major road.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:15 pm

It looks okay, but reminds me of how much I really miss the Volt concept.

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm

91 Bill

“- remember this is the company that thought the Hummer was a good ideaI still cannot understand why anyone would buy one of those”

My guess is for the same reason you bought the BMW M5.

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N Riley Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:34 pm

We have to appreciate the Prius for what it is. A vehicle that has set a standard. Until the Volt is in production and is being sold around the country, the Prius is still the standard to beat. The Volt will beat it very easily in all the factors that matter to most of us. The PHEV Prius will go on to extend the Prius standard. But, even then it should fall short of the Volt’s standard. Of course, I am assuming the Volt and the PHEV Prius will both be “successful” and actually do what they were designed to do. I think both will.

Let’s face it. The Prius is here to stay in one form or another. It will be a mighty competitor for the Volt. It will be a car that many of us on this blog will eventually purchase. The reasons for purchasing a Prius over the Volt will be many and varied. Cost and interior room are just two of the factors. I don’t pretend to know all the reasons, but cost by itself is a mighty compelling reason. If the PHEV Prius comes in a $30,000 and the Volt price is around $40,000 to $45,000, there is 10 to 15 thousand reasons to buy the Prius. Cost will play a big part in some of our decisions.

I look forward to the competition between the Volt, the Prius and the vehicles to be announced by the other automakers around the globe. The competition will be stiff and it will be good for us, the driving public. We will be able to chose a vehicle based on our personal preferences and needs. It should be a wonderfully fantastic time for us. I just wish it was happening this fall instead of in two to three years.

Good luck to all the automakers. Bring on the competition. We await the dawning of a new world with an eagerness born of need. Thank God and I pray we are not too late.

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DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:35 pm

#86, #88 re capacitors

Yes, ultra capacitors can be used to supplement the power delivery from the batteries, but it’s not so simple to just stick some capacitors in there.

Stated simply, the problem is that capacitors and batteries have different voltage profiles. As the charge depletes from a capacitor the voltage drops significantly, as the voltage is supported by the (rapidly decreasing) electric field in the capacitor. As the charge depletes from a battery the voltage drops only very slightly since the voltage is supported by a very stable chemical reaction.

In high power situations, the voltage drop off the battery will be related to its internal resistance, which is why the capacitors help. As the battery voltage drops more significantly, the capactors can release their charge.

However in that case (where the capacitors were just stuck on the power “bus” with the batteries), they will still only discharge a tiny fraction of the energy that they contain, since they will only discharge the amount of energy dictated by the relatively small voltage change due to the resistance of the battery.

It is also somewhat difficult to get high capacitance at high voltages. I’m not a cap designer, but usually somebody mentions this whenever EEstor announcements pop up. I see this is true, however, as I poke around looking for high voltage/high capacitance capacitors for sale. That is a tough, tough combination.

So, given all that what you really need to do to get significant energy from the capacitors is to create a separate set of power converters that can convert the low voltage states of the capacitors into high voltage states for the battery bus (and vice versa!). And to do that at high enough current levels to actually provide those hundreds of kW to make a difference in your acceleration!
This is a lot more complex system!

Plus, I think GM was looking at A123 for quite a long time, now (long before the \Volt started) which has such low internal resistance compared to pretty much any other battery tech that it wouldn’t have been worth it. to come up with some kind of capacitor storage system.

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Bill Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:41 pm

96 JEC –

Touche – but in my defense the M5 handles awesome and is a joy to drive and ride in. Neither of which I can say for the few Hummers I have been in. The Hummer seems to be much more about look at me in my giant SUV-Truck that will never see anything but pavement (and yes, that is a gross generalization).

On a side note, when we were buying the Prius, they would not take our M5 in trade – said they couldn’t sell it. The dealer also had a Hummer franchise and we had to walk through the Hummer storage area to get to the Priuses. The sales guy told us that they had sold only one hummer in the last 6 weeks. Made it pretty easy for them to determine Salesman of the Month, though.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:53 pm

Let’s be fair to Lyle. The title of his post is, “Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?”

It is a provocative headline meant to generate discussion. Calling him “fanboy” assumes he thinks the Prius is a Volt Wannabe. Many lay people would consider plug-ins to be similar, whether they be serial or parallel. So, if GM is hyping a plug-in and then Toyota hypes a plug-in that will have less AER, I could see where lay people might say Toyota is trying to be what the Volt is intended to be. Since the Toyota’s AER would be less than the Volts, “wannabe” might enter some minds.

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Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#81 Statik says: “Lets assume one engine was equivalent to 70HP and one was 120HP, in the same plaform on a 16kwH pack, and we get a ‘average Joe’ off the street, lets say 35 year old male for example.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, I see what you’re getting at. The more powerful motor will allow worse driving habits.

But a 70hp engine would be a real dog, like probably 0-60 in 20 seconds. The Prius uses the electric motor together with the gas engine to get respectable acceleration, probably around 140 combined horsepower.

The Volt just uses a bigger electric motor to get about the same level of performance. The only difference is that the Prius sometimes has a lag during acceleration while the engine is switching on.

Bottom line: You will be able to drive aggressively / wastefully with both the Prius and the Volt.

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SamH Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:07 pm

#6 Statik

You are right, we’ve talked about this before, I posted this link on July 1:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4212545.html

and made the comparison.

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hermant Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:10 pm

ANYTHING that helps the Prius in acceleration and handling would be GREATLY appreciated. Sure, it’s only natural that I think that it’s a dog, but after test driving one, MY WIFE concluded that it’s a dog! Where’s all that electric motor torque??? If it looks like a dog… and it drives like a dog… then it IS a dog!!! I think it’s time to walk the Prius… JMHO.

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wwskinn3 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:10 pm

No matter what the mileage – that thing is plain UGLY with no style.

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noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:24 pm

After a closer look, I think that the car in the photo above is more disguised than it first looks. I doubt if Toyota is going to have the edges of the doors sticking out from the body like that. It also appears that there is a lot of white tape on the front of the car, aside from the black around the grill, which draws the eye away from the more subtle distortions. You can probably tell about as much from this photo as we could from the Volt wind tunnel model we saw awhile ago. Not that much, IMHO.

As to the styling, someone asked the bottom line question yesterday. Would you rather have a more stylish car with slightly less mileage, or a no compromise less stylish car with slightly more gas mileage? Toyota has clearly chosen to appeal to the latter. They have a 6 month waiting list at the moment, so who can say that they are wrong?

For about the umpteenth time, I am not going to buy a Toyota. All I ever wanted was a GM vehicle that got the same mileage as a Prius. I am patiently (well OK, impatiently) waiting. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

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noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:28 pm

#82 RB:

Alas, I think that it is a home made one-of. It sure stopped the show when he walked in with it on though.

I did fiddle around on the “net” for a few minutes and find a few references. I assume that you are better at it than I. It wouldn’t be hard.

Very magical powers, indeed. If we had one of those, we might even be able to figure out what Wagoner, Lutz, et al, are thinking!

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john1701a Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:58 pm

48 >> If the next gen Prius can travel electric at highway speed, then it will have to be a plug-in to gain anything by doing so – right now the battery size would only be enough to get it to 65MPH, not to keep it there for more than an instant.

Thankfully, that is not how FULL hybrids actually work. And there will indeed a gain from not having drag from the engine anymore. Also, that size claim is false, proven by owners who have driven after running out of gas or after a long decend from a mountain.

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N Riley Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:04 pm

Look at it this way. GM has two years to hide some of the facts about the Volt. They are playing for as much time as they can to prevent Toyota (which everyone, including GM, believes is GM’s primary competition) from finding out any real details about the Volt’s internals. If they go around releasing all the Volt’s secrets too early, it gives our friend Toyota time to make adjustments in the PHEV Prius coming in 2010 also. This is a dance that GM and Toyota are playing and the winner gets to take the prom queen home.

GM knows they are in a fight for their survival and they know they can’t afford to be outspoken when they should be more closed mouthed. Some of the things we keep hearing and harping about are put out to throw off the competition. Lutz and Wagoner, to a lesser extent, along with a host of others are saying one thing here while saying something a little different there. Kind of like the presidential politics game. Except this game is a killer and world domination is at stake. No small time game like our politicians are playing.

It is going to be an interesting two years starting early next year in Detroit.

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RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:42 pm

#106 noel

Thanks for the further information. If you get anything more, please let me know. Maybe whoever made it would like to make a few dollars.

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:58 pm

98 DaveP

Thanks for the great response! I am no expert on caps or batteries, but I do have some experience in power electronics.

From you description, sounds like a requirement for semicondutor switching (IGBT’s) and complex algorithms to control the flow of power. I assume this has been looked at, but sometimes even the most obvious solutions can be overlooked.

Thanks again!

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Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Re to Prius owner… how was the Geo Metro “impractical”? It should also be noted that some folks say the same thing about the Prius.

I’ve sat in the back seat of both a Metro and a Prius w/no problem.

In any case you are still missing the whole point…. one of the highest mileage vehicles on the road 20 years ago got 50 mpg…. one of the current highest mileage vehicles on the road today still only gets 50 mpg. We have stagnated! 20 years of internal combustiion engine development has been almost entirely focused on performance, not on fuel economy. The 2008 Nissan Sentra’s get the same mileage as the 1987 Sentra I had (35mpg).

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kubel Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Awesome. More options and alternatives. Keep GM on their toes. Too bad the photographer overexposed the image.

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JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:02 pm

99 Bill

You don’t need to justify your decisions with me. I was not trying to be mean, just pointing out that we all make decisions based on our desires and needs (money comes in handy also)

I would love to own a BMW, Hummer, Prius, Volt, etc. Unfortunately for me the money part of the equation will trump most of my desires.

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stas peterson Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Jeff M #111

You’re facile with the nonsense.

In 1976 the very epitome of a small fuel efficient car was the venerable VW Beetle. In 2009 the very definition of the worst gas guzzling SUV is the Cadillac Escalade.

How come I can order a model of the Biggest, Baddest, Gas Guzzler SUV, that gets 31% better mileage than the Bug, by not your fond recollections, but by the official record keeper, the CAFE custodians, the NHTSA.

They haven’t changed their measuring stick all these years so thy can compare a vehicles from different eras. The ‘76 Bug got 16 mpg. The 2009 Cadillac

escalade SUV gets 21 mpg.

The Caddy has to lug around a lot of stuff that the Bug never did. Airbags, front, side, rear, and curtain for example. Safety systems too. Bumpers, crumple zones, side impact beams. Did I mention disc brakes, traction control, ABS, Stabiltrack anti-skid and anti-rollover systems too.

On top of that the Caddy removes 999 times the pollution emissions that the old Bug emitted. That’s what the the EPA Lev II requirement is: 99.9% better than a non catalytic converter equipped car. Lots less NOx, SOx, CO, VOCs. So it takes a 1000 Escalades to emit more poison than ONE ‘76 Bug did.

Did I mention that the Caddy tunes itself automatically, hundreds of times a second, like every car, and even has a option for an automatic tire pressure gage to continuously check air pressure in the tires.

Both things the doofus, Our Savior, Obama-san, who doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground, urges that you do. Which will presumeably save the Country and World; and provide energy independence.

Yeah sure. We’ve stagnated all right… NOT!

It’s hard to realize how much slow steady progress adds up.

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dagwood55 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:50 pm

N Rilye, 109,

What do you think GM is hiding from Toyota about the Volt? This is an engineering exercise. Once GM explains the basic layout, the only thing Toyota won’t know are GM’s (presumably) proprietary algorithms for powertrain control. And they’re likely simpler than the algorithms that manage the Prius. Motors, batteries, discharge rates, charge rates, controller efficiency… none of that is going to be particularly secret. Toyota will be comfortable with understanding all of that, as it’s about half – maybe two-thirds – of a Prius.

Jeff M, 112,

The Prius is a larger, faster, much safer, more comfortable, more reliable car. You could time the Metro 3-cylinder’s 0-60 times with a sun dial. The 3-cylinder was the high-mpg version. And the Prius does better in city driving, anyway.

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DaveP Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 2:50 am

#111 JEC:
I find the engineering discussion parts even more fun than the conspiracy theory discussion parts. It’s been many years since I’ve designed either power supplies or battery chargers and nothing as large as for a car, but it’s fun to think about those, again.

I spent a little more time thinking about the power electronics, motors and batteries this evening. I think the electronics are generally more sophisticated on these cars than we’ve been giving them credit for…

I know from the service manual that my Honda’s IMA system is 3 phase AC and there’s no 12V alternator, that system is powered by a DC-DC converter powered from the IMA. So, that’s probably one of the simplest hybrids and there’s quite a lot going on already.

I poked around and it appears the current version of the Prius actually uses a boost converter to up the voltage from the battery pack to the motor (this is a fairly technical article, folks):
http://www.techonline.com/product/underthehood/199501618
In a nutshell, they didn’t want to use enough batteries to make 500V, so they used a lot fewer of them to get 200V and just boosted the voltage using a converter. That makes the system more complicated than I’d imagined.

I was aware of some other electric car prototypes using ultracapacitors already… And after poking around I just noticed that the FCX Clarity no longer uses ultracaps. They switched to a Li-Ion battery, instead!
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/battery.aspx
That probably says a lot right there about the ability of these new lithium ion batteries to handle impulse power, although it also says a lot about the high power output of Honda’s new fuel cell, too.
(Private note to Honda: Didn’t you guys get the secret memo? You were just supposed to fiddle with fuel cells for 20 years, not actually make them viable in the short term!

Kind of makes me wonder what GM might be cooking up in the electronics for the Volt. When you start looking at it, there’s a lot of ways to set up the batteries and electronics. Heck, there’s a lot of ways to set up the converters, too…

Going back to the ultracapacitors for a moment, just off the top of my head I think if I were going to do a circuit with ultra capacitors I might try to use something like a buck converter to charge them on regen, and use the ultra caps themselves in a switched stacked capacitor arrangement for boosting the voltage for output and pass the power back out through another buck converter. The really fun thing would be to figure out how to flip the polarity of the buck after the capacitors are stacked using all the same circuitry for charge/discharge.
(for those following along at home, buck converters are very efficient and can dump huge quantities of current, but can only be used to reduce voltage, not increase it. Stacking the capacitors refers to an efficient but typically low power switching supply technique that can increase voltage by charging capacitors in parallel then switching them into series, much like what you would do when charging AA batteries individually in your charger then stuffing them in pairs in series into your mp3 player or electric toothbrush

Hmmm. I could use something like that on my solar system… (the power converter, not the toothbrush I might have to think about that some more.

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Dave G Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 4:30 am

#116 dagwood55 says: “Once GM explains the basic layout, the only thing Toyota won’t know are GM’s (presumably) proprietary algorithms for powertrain control. And they’re likely simpler than the algorithms that manage the Prius.”
————————————————————————————–
This isn’t quite right. The algorithms for induction motors are vastly more complex than the magnet based motors used in the Prius. See here for details:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45

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dagwood55 Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 2:46 pm

Dave G, 118,

It strikes me as very likely that the induction motor could be entirely controlled and optimized by its own dedicated controller, which simplifies the central control algorithms.

Further, induction motors aren’t secret, either.

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Randy Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:02 am

Butt UGLY but if they put a plug in it , it will sell even better than it already is.

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jdb Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:03 pm

All that I know is that if Toyota said they’re going to build one they will. GM needs to get their act together and move fast. GM the VOLT is the answer.

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Koz Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Late posting but I read this thread earlier in the week and wanted to comment when I had time.

Thank You ThombDbhomb #101 for being the only reasonable relevent (to the post) comment on this thread. No offense intended for those reasonable non-relevent comments. Offense is intended to those dissing Lyle and his post.

This is HIS site dedicated to discussing the Volt, it’s development, and most importantly for prodding GM to produce the Volt. He does this in addition to being a doctor and family man. It’s ironic that Prius lovers would cast “bias” stones at Lyle from their own glass houses. The title of this post is a question, not a statement, and it is a very valid one at that.

Toyota’s official comments prior to the Volt were:
-they had no immediate plans to add plug-in capability and that the American public was not ready for plug-in vehicles.
-Li batteries were not ready for prime time

Now, this articles states that Li batteries and a plug are being considered. These changes may or may not have anything to do with the Volt, but posing the question is certainly valid based on prior history. Additionally Lyle gives due credit to the Prius in his comments. So, either the posters of detracting comments ingnored this or didn’t bother to read his post.

GM has acknowledged taking cues from Tesla and Toyota. Is it so unfathomable that Toyota is reacting to their competition? Large corporations take a lot of their direction from their competitiors, leading or lagging.

A higher energy battery and a plug is a good thing, regardless of where the impetus comes from. It’s telling, there weren’t many comments to this effect included with the stoning.

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Brian Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

Just an update on the technology for the confused.

In a no gearbox serial electric transmission car, big high power torquey motors are needed for acceleration and hill climbing.
With good design these can have a very power to weight ratio,
infact better than ones in the Volt.

Note, In an IC car the gear box is allso a torque multiplier.

The Kw of the battery is not the limit on power output, but how many amps that can be pulled out of it, needs low internal resistance.

Example the 12volt starter battery in a car may only stores 750watts but the starter motor can deliver 5kw, the battery can do this for
0.75/5 hour i.e. not long.

Kw give you range not peak power. Range is limited by rolling resistance and overall wind drag. Lower these and the range goes up.

Weight just affects acceleration, very little else and on a good design 85% of the braking energy can be recovered and it makes little difference how hard you accelerate, the limit is wheel spin.

Same amount of power require (1/2mvSquared) no matter how quick you get up to cruise speed, infact an IC engine is best with throttle wide open as well. Less pumping losses.

Thats why the Volts is body is being reworked for a lower CD and may also come on special low rolling resistance tyres, as these are the things that will greatly affect the range.

The nice thing about the Volt is each system is seperate, motors, energy storage, on board power generation. Each can be optimised,
updated and changed to match which market it is being sold in.

Can’t do that on the Prius, to intergrated.

The Prius has always been a bit of a joke in Europe, as we have diesel cars that can do better, really just marketing by Toyota to look good and driven by the egocentric PC lot.

The Prius was the best that could be done 15 years ago and the concept is really past its sell by date. The Volt will be better but needs to be a little more radical, dump the inboard electric motors and mechanical brakes and go all electric, saves weight and space.

See this link and weep

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

This is what really can be achived with in wheel electric drive.
Makes the Volt look a bit old fashioned.

Spec 400 miles per charge, 900 miles using on board generator.
O to 60 mph 4.5 seconds, top 150 mph limited .

Volvo have a C30 in development based on this concept.

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Next Gen Prius Spotted: Volt Wannabe?

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