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Ford: Mass Production of Plug-in Electric Cars at Least 5 Years Away

July 31st, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors, PHEV

Ford continues to take a conservative stance on the possibility of mass-producing plug-in electric cars.

“We’re clearly at least five years away from starting what I would call the ramp from very small volumes to substantial volumes,” said Nancy Gioia who is Ford’s director of hybrid vehicles.

She describes plug-in development as “a system that really has to come together and it’s not just, ‘Throw some product out there.”‘

She worries about the possibility of batteries not living up to their lifetime potential stating:

“If you build your plug-in hybrid and the battery only lasts five years, how much is your vehicle worth? Nothing. The battery replacement costs will exceed the residual value of the vehicle. We don’t think that’s an acceptable pathway forward.”

For its part Ford is testing 20 plug-ins in Southern California as a research effort with utility companies.

Source (Reuters)

Popularity: 7%

(4 votes, average: 4.25 out of 5)

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Posted by: Lyle

101 Responses to “Ford: Mass Production of Plug-in Electric Cars at Least 5 Years Away”

Dave B Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Garbage!
Gsned57 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:23 pm

WOW, GM take the lead because it doesn’t look like any other American car manufacturer believes it can.
Ryan P Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:31 pm

FORD has already designed and produced and sold a plug in electric vehicle. It is called the Think City and was acquired by Norwegian interests. It works FINE and those Norskies LOVE it. NOTE that this is NOT a hybrid! It’s a BEV.
http://www.think.no
noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Lead, follow, or get out of the way!
noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Of course some may say that 200,000 total by 2015 is not “substantial volume”.
Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:02 pm

This is bad news. I was really hoping Ford would come up with something that could challenge the Volt. We’ll maybe they’ll have something in 2013. Better late than never.

The best thing that could happen for GM and the Volt would be to have some other big car manufacturer come up with a competing serial hybrid with 40 miles AER at an affordable price. This would:
1) Validate the market, dismissing any pessimism about whether the Volt will work.
2) Increase the media buzz , so more people would know about it.
3) Force GM to be more competitive, especially on price. This would increase sales volumes and thereby lower costs.
DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:19 pm

I’m surprised at what a poor article that is. Seems not up to Reuters standards. But, weridly, it’s kind of an interesting article in that it gives some insight into how public perception is shaped (or mis-shaped?):
” Unlike gasoline-electric models such as Toyota Motor Corp’s Prius, which run on a system that twins battery power and a combustion engine, plug-ins will be powered entirely by an electric motor and have a battery that can be charged through an ordinary power socket.”

That’s not true at all. I think there’s going to be more Prius-like plug-ins than Volt like plug ins from what I read about.

“Increased interest in electric cars comes as U.S. auto manufacturers reel financially from sinking sales of gas- guzzling sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks, with domestic gasoline prices topping $4 a gallon in some areas.”
To whom are they referring? Manufacturers? GM is the only domestic seriously talking electric and that was long before $4 gas or a decrease in SUV sales.
If they’re talking about consumers, I don’t think interest in electric vehicles is being driven by $4 gas, if for no other reason that it would still be cheaper to drive a gas engine at $4 than what the electrics are probably going to cost. Counter to what is implied by that statement, we’ve all been interested in the Volt primarily for other reasons than cost savings on gas.

“If you build your plug-in hybrid and the battery only lasts five years, how much is your vehicle worth? Nothing,” Gioia said.
I think he’s referring to Tesla which likely does have that short a battery life and is also the only vehicle likely to HAVE that short a battery life (NiMH powered electric vehicles have already proven to have longer lives than that). I doubt that the Tesla Roadster will be worth nothing with a shot battery pack, considering how much it costs relative to the battery pack. Besides, in 5 years, the pack that replaces the original will be much longer lived and cheaper.

Then they go and talk about the Ford plug in Escape under test, which, in fact contradicts that initial statement above about all electric drivetrains. The plug-in escape uses basically the same parallel system as the regular escape hybrid.

Interestingly, in this USA Today article (from 1/24/2008) they talk about it maybe on the market in 5 years:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-01-24-ford-escape-plugin-hybrid_N.htm
Joe OBrien Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:23 pm

I can’t wait till Ford tries to play “catch up” and say how wrong they were once the Volt is released and their only answer to stay afloat is to keep selling the same F150 at $4 a gallon.

Talk about ignorance. Let GM prepare for the future while Ford languishes away to nothing.

They’ll be sorry they sat on their butts while the world passed them by.
Järn Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Where is Ford’s electric vehicle? Ford has no money for EV development, so they are trying to manage their “image” with a press release like this.
Guy Incognito Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Ford’s so-called ‘conservative stance’ sounds to me like they’re trying to delay the inevitable. The serial plug in hybrid such as the Volt, which in turn will lead to pure battery electric vehicles.

Do the idiots at Ford realize that their myopic outlook is destroying them?
Do they really think gas prices are ever going to come down?
Go ahead guys, try and hold out for 5 more years.
Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:28 pm

How short sighted of FOMOCO, goes back to days of planed obsolesence. No, the depreciation can not compare to the days when cars had 5 digit odometers.
DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:30 pm

I wonder: If Ford could turn back the clock, would they still sell Th!nk back to the Norweigian company that sold it to them in the first instance?

Seems like a missed opportunity.
N Riley Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:31 pm

#4 Noel Park

“Lead, follow, or get out of the way!”

You are so right where Ford is concerned. They don’t have anything to talk about so, they talk about how bad it could be. If they had a product in the pipeline within 2 years of introduction, they would be whistling to a different song. Instead of downplaying GM’s and Toyota’s plug-in vehicle plans, Ford should be developing their own. They have the capacity and the people skills to do it if they wanted to. Time will tell. Ford will join the rest at some point in the future. Their market share will guarantee them a successful vehicle once it is announced and released to the public.
Dave G Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:32 pm

#7 DaveP says: “I’m surprised at what a poor article that is. Seems not up to Reuters standards. But, weridly, it’s kind of an interesting article in that it gives some insight into how public perception is shaped (or mis-shaped?):”
————————————————————————————–
I’ve noticed the same thing. Most press on the Volt seems to get some basic concept wrong.

I think the press should be talking about fuel choice. The Volt is the first car that allows drivers to choose between gas and electricity on a daily basis. Choice is something the press and the public can latch on to.
BigCityCat Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Ford just dropped below VW on major automakers scale. I wonder why?

It goes like this, Toyota, GM, VW, and then Ford. Very sad.
Statik Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Title says, “Ford: Mass Production of Plug-In Electric Cars At Least 5 Years Away”

I think this is true not only of Ford…but everyone really. It’s 2008 now…so 2013? Who is going to be mass producing EVs for the ‘mass market’ by then? Nobody.

If anyone here thinks they are going to walk into any showroom in North America and write a cheque and leave with a EV, they are kidding themselves.

Only people getting EVs by 2013, are those with the ‘big coin’ or that hound automakers and get deposits in REALLY QUICK and wait a REALLY LONG TIME.

/isn’t that one of the main reasons why we are here?
N Riley Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:34 pm

#6 Dave G

Didn’t Nissan say they would develop a “Volt like” vehicle? Don’t remember when they plan to do it, but they did add that to their claim of only wanting to produce BEV’s. I believe others, including Toyota and Ford, will jump on board after the Volt is out and is succeeding. After the technology is proven and in the field others will “copy” it and call it their own. It is the way it is.
kent beuchert Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Apparently this Ford person is under the impression that you can’t estimate a battery’s lifespan with any confidence. Sounds like Ford should hire some battery-knowledgeable folks.
N Riley Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:19 pm

For Ford, talk is cheaper than action. We don’t really know much about Chrysler’s plans. They aren’t talking much, even though it is pretty cheap to do so.
Vincent Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Ford was loosing money if you can imagine this….
The rate of a Mustang a minute….in terms of cash.
5 years away from plug in….wow. Hire me to run the company.
I’ll take 1/2 pay and out perform the current management.
“Job One” sell Mercury
omegaman66 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:38 pm

People people people…. isn’t this pretty much the same thing that GM is saying. GM isn’t talking about mass producing big numbers anytime soon either. The GAP might not be as great as you would wish.
jazzdoc Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:41 pm

Dave P #7 and Dave G #14 - good posts.

Never underestimate the lack of technical knowlege of the American public, especialy the media. Everyone that follows this site eventually learns all the acronyms and lingo and is likely interested in the technology. The average consumer does not have a clue about any of this stuff. I own a Camry hybrid and regularly have folks ask about it and say things like “Now how does that thing work? Do you have to plug it in?” The whole concepts of diferentiating a serial vs paralel hybrid, straight EV vs range extender is totally lost on common folks AND the main stream media.

This will be a big chalenge of GM to educate the public about what makes the Volt truly unique and such an important step.

As for Ford,,,, its called “managing expectations”… set ‘em low and they won’t be disapponted….. truly sad.
Aspherical Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:42 pm

I won’t criticize FOMOCO until they start discussing their targets for specifications for a future plug-in BEV. Who knows, maybe their target is 80 miles electric, then 700 miles with a turbine range extender (I highly doubt it), but if the specs are worse than the Volt, then let the bashing begin!
BRUCE Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:42 pm

I’M GOING WITH GM, SORRY FORD AND TOYOTA BUT I SUPPORT THE AMERICAN WORKER. INCIDENTALLY THE PRIUS DOES NOT GET 50-60MPG BUT ONLY 40MPG DUE TO THE 10% ETHANOL ADDED TO THE GAS. SPEAK TO ANY PRIUS OWNER.
firehawk72 Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Interesting comment by Ford. Seriously, it looks like GM may have a good 1-3 year lead in technology. I say 1-3 years because even the mightly Toyota has said its plug-in in 2010 will be limited to hundreds of vehciles-not thousands. Maybe I am just optimistic, but GM could be a power house-again,…if they can pull this off without a bunch of recalls and the product works as it is being touted at the moment. I will seriously consider the Volt and the plug in VUE as my next vechicle.

Hawk
Tyson S Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:06 pm

Lol well it only took ford to lose 8 ish billion in ONE QUARTER, to decide that it will change the models it currently offers. I don’t really think management at any of the american car companies is really that great, GM has probably lost more then ford and is only producing electric because tesla proved it could be done… I’d be very suprised if Ford survives to this 2013 target unless they make RADICAL changes…
Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:07 pm

BRUCE…. you don’t need to “buy American” to support American workers… when I bought my 1987 Nissan Sentra it was actually made by American workers in Tennessee…. and if the reports are right future Prius’s may be getting made by American workers (on American soil) as well.

And you won’t get the 40mpg from “any” Prius owner… I know a couple Prius owners and they get 50+ mpg…

… but ethanol does decrease mileage in all vehicles because ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline. With E10 (10% ethanol) blend it’s relatively minor… it’s with E85 that folks will notice it (and maybe what you are refering to).
jes Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:12 pm

While the headline is bothersome, the message is not and I may get bashed because of the crowd that follows this site, but it is true.

No one has proven that any lithium Ion battery can reach 5 years, not even Tesla who says they hope to have 70% by the 5th year. A123 and LGChem can test life cycle, but they can’t test life span and their claims may have some science behind it, but it is not a “fact” yeat. So uniil a battery is tested for 10 years, we won’t know if it last 10 years.

Solutions:
1) Use NiMH who’s life span is 15 years (This is where GM gets a big F)
2) Get it in gear and mass produce the Li ion batteries so that the replacement battery is not more thean the residual value of the car. (This is where GM gets an A).
3) Lease the batteries and recycle/recover what it can at a time interval that the owner chooses (if 70% after 5 years is okay, then stretch it out further)
4) Then after time has passed…like Ford says, we will have a better answer / understanding of the A123, LG Chem, EEStor and everything else out there and things that are not even thought of yet.

Until then, I think having multiple options with different technology is crucial to see what works best.
kubel Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:13 pm

If Ford plays catch up, they will do it right and will be very cautious to make something that works and is attractive to as many people as possible (because they can’t afford to make any mistakes). I happen to think they are doing good basing their current PHEVs on the Escape, since it’s a small 5-passenger SUV.

GM is just throwing out the Volt and seeing how people react, before they really have any idea who will be the target audience. Not many people want a 4-passenger, 4-door sedan. They are also probably going to use some very inefficient technologies (like the already aged 1.4L, which will be about 14 years old by the time the first one is dropped into the Volt).

If range, performance, and price were all equal, I would rather have a EREV Ford Escape than a EREV Chevy Volt.
Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:17 pm

I hope Ford is only talking specifically about the Ford brand name… I’m hoping their Volvo division will enter the market sooner than later… like with their ReCharge concept car.

Ford’s hybrid tech I they used in the 1st Ford hybrids came from Volvo, which they acquired in 1999. Ford two months after purchasing Volvo canceled Volvo’s mature plug-in development program Look up the “Volvo ECC” prototype from 1992… it’s essentially what the Volt is now… except that Volvo ECC was based on what would become the S80 platform so was a “family” sized car, got 50% more EV only range (using NiCad’s to boot!) as well. To be fair though the Volt will have a much better 0-60mph time!

I love my Volvo (model year 2000 S70 T5), and would love to replace it in 3 years with a Volvo plug-in battery EV (with or without a “range extender”). So come on Ford, give Volvo the go ahead and money like GM has done for the Volt!
Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:25 pm

jes, I agree with you about the NiMH’s (w/the Cobasys design/chemistry). They have proven themselves in both the EV1 and the Rav4-EV. Sadly the patent has been locked up by Chevron who has an obvious conflict of interest. The patent I believe expires in (at at the end of?) 2012 so hopefully that will open it up as an alternative to Lithium.
Paul-R Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:27 pm

If Lion Electric can make money selling electric conversions of new Ford Rangers ($39K) and Escapes ($47K), then it seems like Ford should be able to do the same.

http://www.lionev.com/

If nothing else, it would certainly help Ford’s image.
Morgan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:35 pm

27 Jeff M:

Depends on what is important to you…American workers at the auto plants or the money flowing out of this country. It is also important to note that those Foreign Domestic workers make a good chunk less than their True Domestic counterparts.

Then you get into the suppliers, engineering, and research and it just turns into a bloody nightmare for the US with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda gaining dominant US market share and putting the US automakers out of business.
Morgan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:38 pm

32 Paul-R:

Does Lion Electric have crash test data? how did they do on their side impact and puncture tests? weather testing? Flammability certification? UL?

What is their warranty?

I would wager if you asked them you would get a blank stare to all those questions and that should give you enough answer as to why they are profitable.
Ed M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Ford is taking the wait and see approach which will put them far behind GM and Toyoto. I have no doubt that drivers will embrace the volt and its variants. Ford will find itself trying to catch up which is not a good place to be, because while your trying to catch up the competition is surging ahead. No wonder Ford made that silly comment a while back about GM taking a big risk.
Joe Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:55 pm

“BRUCE…. you don’t need to “buy American” to support American workers… when I bought my 1987 Nissan Sentra it was actually made by American workers in Tennessee…. and if the reports are right future Prius’s may be getting made by American workers (on American soil) as well.”

**********************************************************

When you say “make by American workers in Tennessee” what you really mean to say is: assembled by American workers in Tennessee. Most parts are made in Japan,not the USA. Also, to which country does the profit go to? Japan! Don’t kid yourself, buying a foreign product is not the best thing for our country. Wake up and maybe you’ll have a job in the future.
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 5:59 pm

They all have to move at their own pace.
But wait too long, they’ll be left out in the cold.
Sometimes it pays to take the wait and see approach.
Sometimes it pays to lead.
Personally, I don’t think GM could lose with the stand they have taken on EREVs.
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Noel Park, #5 says,
Of course some may say that 200,000 total by 2015 is not “substantial volume”.

—
Yup. I’m one of those people. I really think the Volt is going to take off.
If it does, GM can’t sell them if they don’t make them. If they don’t make them, then people can’t buy them. This means no profit for GM and people will go elsewhere.
Ed M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Joe #36

Its good to see someone understands the difference between assembly plants and parts manufacturing.
GM Volt Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:06 pm

Ford better get with the program. They better not miss the hybrid vehicle boat. The ship IS leaving the dock and they’re going to miss the big car sales party in 2011 or so if they fool around too much with getting next generation hybrids on the road.

I think most Americans “get it” now. The era of CHEAP oil is over with. With China and India and the rest of the world’s economies growing every year, there simply isn’t enough oil to go around … at least not the “easy and INEXPENSIVE to extract” kind of oil. Americans are ready to do battle with OPEC and Big Oil by buying new hybrid technologies for their cars and trucks. Cars like the Saturn Vue 2 mode plug-in hybrid and the Volt could be HUGE in 2011 … especially if gas prices are still ridiculous. These kinds of cars are clearly here for the long run … especially if the batteries get cheaper and the range, power, safety and battery life keep improving. If the batteries are excellent, it won’t matter what the price of gasoline is. BEVs and PHEVs and other hybrids will still sell for all sorts of reasons.

This oil shale in Colorado and in tar sands in Canada isn’t exactly cheap to extract, process and refine you know. Who cares how much of THAT kind of oil there is in the world if people still have to pay $5+ a gallon for it. Oil prices could easily be $10 a gallon in 5 years for all we know. T. Boone Pickens is right about us transferring HUGE amounts of America’s wealth overseas. It’s very bad for our collective financial health. This picture says it all about how staggeringly rich the big oil producing countries are getting because of our oil addiction:

http://multimedia.detnews.com/pix/photogalleries/newsgallery/05202008_russiaautos/index14.htm

“We have a joke that with oil at $35 a barrel, Russian is western Europe’s suppliers of natural resources, but with oil prices above $100 a barrel, Europe becomes Russia’s consumer goods supplier.”

The days of auto companies crossing their fingers and hoping oil prices drop back to the levels they were in the late 90s ($1/gal) isn’t going to happen. They are going to HAVE TO build super fuel efficient cars and compete head to head against very tough Japanese competitors in the auto segments the Japanese now dominate.

If they don’t get some hybrids and other smaller cars on the road that are getting rave reviews from the automotive press and customers, they are going to be in BIG trouble. It’s time for the “Detroit 3″ to wake up and smell the coffee or they might be going the way of the dinosaur. We don’t have much cheap dino-oil left. We HAVE TO transition to electric cars and hybrids like the Volt as soon as possible.

The Detroit 3 better get their very best designers and engineers to work on their next generation of cars. The competition is going to be fierce. They are making progress on reliability and quality but they have to keep on improving it for all their cars. They need to win in these Consumer Reports ratings.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/which-companies-make-the-best-cars/overview/0407_best_cars.htm

If GM, Ford, or Chrysler don’t think they can build a particular car with high quality and reliability, they better not build it at all. They should focus on cars that they KNOW will compare well with the very best cars coming from Japan and Europe.

Not everyone who shops for a car does a lot of homework before they choose one but a LOT of people take the advice from people they know who DO know about things like reliability, quality, etc. Marketing people should know this. The people that do research cars have influence over other people. It’s that cousin in the family who is a mechanic or the guy at work who has a hobby of working on cars on the weekend, etc. These are the same kinds of people who review cars at the car magazines like Motor Trend, JD Power, etc. The American carmakers need to impress their toughest customers and LOTS of other people will take their advice and buy what they suggest. It’s called “word of mouth”. It’s powerful. It’s the difference between a blockbuster movie and a flop … just ask Hollywood.
francomerican Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:10 pm

#27 Jeff M

” you don’t need to “buy American” to support American workers… when I bought my 1987 Nissan Sentra it was actually made by American workers in Tennessee…. and if the reports are right future Prius’s may be getting made by American workers (on American soil) as well. ”

The Nissan’s and the Toyota’s may assemble cars on American soil, but the bread and butter manufacturing of major components and assemblies still occurrs overseas, and shipped to North America for final assembly.
BlackSun Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:17 pm

This is unabashed FUD from a company that sat on its hands while GM moved. Of course that’s what Ford is going to say “Ooohhh, better not buy a first generation electric, what if the battery goes bad–better to stick with our tried and true internal combustion engine.”

Ford’s got nothing, so they throw out the rhetoric. GM was saying the same about Toyota’s hybrids not too long ago. So far I have yet to hear about ANYONE having to replace a Prius battery. Those cars have been on the road nearly 10 years.

Sorry Ford, that you blew your lead.
Jeff M Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Morgan and Joe… I was specifically responding to BRUCE’s concern that he wanted American workers… the issue of where the profits go is another issue, but last I knew the IRS collected business profits taxes from those business (as well as on the wages they paid out to the American workers).

In any case, this is capitalism guys… if you want socialism then you are in the wrong country. Protectionism also doesn’t work. If producing products 100% within the USA doesn’t compete with the world market then we don’t deserve those jobs. My own job (software engineer) was off-shored to China several years ago and I didn’t cry about it.

One bright side of high energy prices, and a weak dollar, is that we are actually seeing a reversal to some of the off-shoring. It’s now less expensive to make heavy durable items domestically than to make them offshore and pay ever rising shipping costs to import them. If only we could get China to let their currency float on the free market we’d see the cost of Chinese imports go up significantly which will bring more jobs back home here.

It’s a good reason to be promoting clean renewable energy… the best source of that is domestic. That Picken’s plan will create tons of domestic jobs…. wind mills are just too big/heavy to be building overseas and ship… and of course the assembly of them has to be done here in any case. Solar thermal (and PV) and geothermal all the same. Even building more nuclear plants will create tons of jobs.
Speculawyer Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Too bad for you Ford . . . you are gonna go down hard w/o any plug-in Hybrid. What is gas gonna cost 5 years from now?
Paul-R Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:37 pm

Morgan (#34),

I suspect you are more interested in sounding skeptical than getting actual answers to your list of questions. I was skeptical also until I reviewed all the photos, video, and technical info on the LionEV web site. Clearly, they do not excel at marketing themselves. If you REALLY want answers to your questions, you could actually try contacting them.

As for your questions…

What is their warranty?

Their FAQ says this: “Full manufacturers warranties are extended to our vehicles, from the transmission back to the rest of the drive train, and all internal components of the passenger compartment. Electric motor and control systems are covered under LionEV warranty.”

Does Lion Electric have crash test data? how did they do on their side impact and puncture tests?

They don’t structurally change the vehicle, so I don’t see why these tests would be any different from stock.

Weather testing?

I assume you mean cold weather. From their site: “For both of you who live where it is below freezing all of the time, install a thermostatically controlled heating blanket under the pack to keep it above freezing. For the rest of us who live in areas where liquid water exists at least for a short period every year, here is a tip. Li batteries will discharge way below zero degrees F, and when discharging they will generate heat to well above freezing. When placed on a charger Li batteries will generate heat well above freezing. So…..when you get home from any drive, any time of the year, your batteries are warm enough to take a charge, and will stay warm until fully charged if you plug them in as soon as you park the vehicle. A little time management goes a long way, and the best time to plug in your charger is as soon as you get home.”

Flammability certification? UL?

Don’t know. However, their converted vehicles no longer have a gasoline tank, and I don’t believe NiMH batteries (if you choose that option) are flammable. Their lithium cells are LiFePO4 … not sure how safe that chemistry is. Their DIY tab describes their conversion in detail with photos showing the electrical components and fail-safe features.

I realize it’s generally more fun to be whiny and skeptical, but after reviewing all the info they provide on their site, I’m pretty sure LionEV is for real.
American Import Worker Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:42 pm

I think all the “American workers” employed by those foreign companies that setup shop in the U.S. cannot be equated with GM workers for two(2) important reasons:

1 - They are NOT unionized (they actually have to work)
2 - The profits that the company makes are sent back to the foreign country.

This a very big difference that cannot be ignored.
GM Volt Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Ford better get it in gear and get a LOT of hybrids on the road in the next few years. We are getting “mad as hell and we’re not going to take it anymore”. We don’t want to continue forking over large portions of our paychecks to OPEC and Big Oil. It’s time to go to “oil rehab”. We gotta do something about this. FAST.

Americans probably don’t realize just HOW staggeringly, disgusting RICH these Middle East oil shieks are getting because of our oil addiction. HALF the price of a gallon of gas is for crude oil. Every time you fill up your tank with a $100 tank of gas, I bet $30-40 or so is going straight into the monster financial portfolios of these already ultra rich oil barons. Who knows, it might only cost Abu Dhabi oil companies 60 cents a gallon to get it out of the ground and onto an oil tanker and they get $2 or so in revenue for that crude oil … about $1.50 a gallon in profit.

That profit skyrockets when the price of oil keeps going up because their costs stay the fairly low. THAT is what you call a “gravy train”. It’s like a profiteer in the Civil War making money by selling ridiculously overpriced bullets, shoes, and blankets to desperate soldiers on their way to a battle. Us oil addicts in America are just like those soldiers because we don’t have an alternative to oil. That is what we need badly … ALTERNATIVES. That’s why they call it “alternative energy” on TV in the campaigns, etc.

Think about it the next time you go to fill up your tank. Every time you swipe your debit/credit card at the pump you are making some Middle East oil shiek a VERY happy man. They probably have so much money they literally can’t think of anything to do with it. Maybe they burn stacks of $100 bills as kindling if they go on a camping trip. Check out this oil shiek who FLEW his Lamborghini to Britain … for a freaking OIL CHANGE.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1493291.ece

I guess $36,000 means about as much to the oil shiek as $40 for Joe Sixpack in America when he goes to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. I would MUCH rather give my transportation dollars to my local electric utility, GM, and whoever is making cellulosic E85 to fill up the range extender with. If all of America’s drivers drove a Volt and only used cellulosic E85 to fill up their tank if would REALLY ruin the party of these oil shieks. That $40-50 per tank you used to have to send to the oil shieks and Hugo Chavez will shrink down to maybe $4-5 a tank … the E85 has 15% gasoline in it. I bet it’s going to happen in the next 20 years. It’s coming. The sooner the better.
Fuel Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:46 pm

Will the fuel pump in the Volt be electric ?
Vegasguy Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:47 pm

In 5 years the batteries will be better AND cheaper.
Joe Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:51 pm

Jeff M @42

“In any case, this is capitalism guys… if you want socialism then you are in the wrong country. Protectionism also doesn’t work. If producing products 100% within the USA doesn’t compete with the world market then we don’t deserve those jobs. My own job (software engineer) was off-shored to China several years ago and I didn’t cry about it.”

************************************************************

I never advocated socialism. You are putting a spin on what I wrote. What I’m advocating is: here in the USA we now produce cars that as good or better than the competition so why buy foreign. Hey, it won’t be my job that I’ll lose someday because I’m retired. Speaking of competition, read how the Japanese have competed in the past. I’m probably a lot older than you are so I remember how the great Japanese competed.

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

http://blogs.automotive.com/6226104/opinion/all-new-chevrolet-malibu-another-win-for-general-motors/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/automobiles/27MODE.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin

The two mode hybrid is a lot more sophisticated system than the Prius system, but very few people know it. I know GM was sleeping for 30 years, but today they have many superior products ,if only people like yourself would only wake up and admit it, GM would not be in such a big bind today.
noel park Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:53 pm

#24 Bruce, #33 Morgan, #36 Joe, #39 Ed M, #40 francomerican:

Amen! Thank God that there are a few people like you left in America.

#38 Rashiid Amul:

No kidding. 10 years in and Toyota can’t keep up with the demand for the Prius. In April you could walk on to a Toyota dealer’s lot in LA and buy one for $2K off of sticker. Today you get on a 6 month waiting list.

Come on GM. In for a penny, in for a pound. If this doesn’t work it’s game over anyway, so what have you got to lose? Go for it!
Larry R Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:03 pm

I wish the Ford and GM would pool their money and technical resources together.

This is America and we need to stick together.
we need to be energy independent.

As the best presidential candidate in the last 20 years Ross Perot
said “folks we need to manufacture”

Lets get this great nation manufacturing and start kicking some ass !

Be American and Buy American!

Down with Consumer Reports !
Nelson Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:05 pm

I wonder how low FORD’s market share has to drop before they change their minds about producing and selling new tech vehicles, like the Ford Edge with HySeries Drive. FORD needs to start capitalizing on their fuel cell research and investments.
DocM Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:11 pm

The difference between Ford and GM?

GM has several alternative power tracks going; fuel cell, E-Flex, “conventional” hybrids, 2-mode hybrids (co-developed with Chrysler, Daimler and BMW) etc.

Ford has butkus save for a largely ignored fuel cell program. I’d even be willing to bet they were invited into the 2-mode dev group but didn’t choose to go.
Morgan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:14 pm

44 Paul-R:

No, its not more fun to be whiny and skeptical. I am skeptical because I grew up in the vehicle modification business. Remember those GM Conversion Vans? just the modified interior? My family owned one of those companies and I worked there since I was 8. There are serious regulatory hurdles we had to do with every chassis revision and we never even touched the drive train. Seats and Interior. No company is considered more than “garage mechanic” until they go through them. Some of those are crash testing which is a significant cost. We had to do crash testing due to the raised roof and added weight we installed onto the chassis. Required by NHTSA in fact. We also had to certify and test to make sure we met all FMVSS guidelines and keep certificates on file to produce said verification on demand.

I am positive Lion EV is for real. Just be aware of what you are getting into when purchasing one.
stas peterson Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:23 pm

Sorry guys , but as much as we all would want everything yesterday it will take some time.

Ford has decided to offer all its world cars here in America. For all of the cranks who constantly complain, “Why can’t I buy a Ford {insert pregnant roller skate name } that gets 45 zillion mpg, that they make in Qumkaut EU, you’ll have your chance.

Ford’s CAFE mileage will soar for regular cars in the next three years. In the meantime Ford has four HEVs that you can buy in a few months. The Escape, Mariner, Fusion and Edge. More will follow. I have heard they are testing an HEV Taurus for example. If they believe that battery tech still needs refinement, or that the battery factories must be built before they can offer PHEVs, then we will see lots of Toyota Prius type vehicles from Ford until 2012 or so.

What is so wrong with that? That is Toyota’s expressed Plan of Action too. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Nor will Toyota have all that much more than HEVs for quite a while too.

You’d think that the End of the World is coming or something. We AGW skeptics say it hasn’t existed ever; but everyone now admits it certainly hasn’t for the last decade. Even the Warmist sock puppets say no GW for another two decades more, before it begins again… maybe.

We’ll have all the PHEVs and EVs you want to warm the cockles of your eco-hearts long before then.
Morgan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:31 pm

55 Stas:

You are correct. The Transit is going to be a huge hit but likely not in the manner Ford is expecting. The remaining passenger van upfitters are salivating for that thing.
RB Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:46 pm

It’s more interesting to read about Chrysler’s GEM cars, which are BEV cars for sale today. They are limited to 25 mph and 30 miles range, but they are real and now, and people like them.
canehdian Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:54 pm

Someone asked about lithium batteries:

LiFePO4 are the safest Li chemistry to date - they dont blow up with puncture/undervoltage, etc.

If you look up 18650 cells(lithium cells, just like those in laptops, or the Tesla roadster) for purchase (Li ion’s, not LiFePO4’s)
you will see two versions; protected and unprotected.
The protected versions include a small PCB on the bottom which stops the current flow when the battery gets too depleted/overcharged.
Otherwise, there’s a risk of some… fireworks
LiFePO4’s, on the other hand, do not have the same effect.
DaveP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 7:55 pm

#14 Dave G:
Yes, the fuel choice is such a big deal on so many levels. From simply helping to keep from running out of fuel on the road to managing demand for a particular type. And it’s incredibly beneficial to use infrastructure we already have: gas and electric.
But I think they can come up with something that might not challenge the Volt directly, but might be viable…
#22 jazzdoc:
Thanks. Yeah, Ford is clearly doing some kind of expectation managment. They aren’t as dead-in-the-water as the article makes them sound.

Ford HAS made a plug in hybrid prototype already (which to be fair the article does as least mention, if not describe). It’s the Escape hybrid under test. The USA today article I posted in #7 describes test driving one of them. You can compare this vehicle to the prototype plug in Prius that Toyota has already, too that they test drove as well:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-01-24-ford-escape-plugin-hybrid_N.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-01-17-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid_N.htm

Granted, these cars are no Volt, but they do have plugs, do get a big bump in mileage with some all-electric operation and require little extra engineering than does the Volt.
Interesting to note from the Prius article:
“The extra battery pack boots total gas-electric output to 136 horsepower vs. 110 in the normal Prius, says Toyota, enough to push the plug-in’s extra 220 pounds.”
“The plug-in can stay in electric-only mode on level roads up to 62 mph, Toyota says, vs. 20 mph in the regular Prius.”

The article says it’s the “same” drivetrain, but unclear how “same” same is. Same layout but with slightly more powerful motors? I suspect not, rather that it’s exactly the same. I talked about this in the last article thread, but the current HSD (style) hybrids have more unused motor power because they are battery pack (power) limited. So, it’s worth noting the increase in power in the conventional hybrids that comes for “free” when coverting to a larger pack for pluginability.

Anyway, from just the production numbers, Ford may actually have more of them out than Toyota does at this point (Couple dozen for Ford, half a dozen for Toyota (give or take)) although Toyota indicates a faster ramp with more out sooner next year than Ford has indicated.

Ford’s plug in has a substantially larger pack at 10kWh than does Toyota’s, too (30 miles of driving up to 40mph quoted for the pluggy Escape, vs. 7 miles at 62mph for the pluggy Prius).

Based on this information, I’d say Ford’s plug in plans are significantly more, er, daring than Toyota’s. They’re clearly trying to sandbag in the meda, now, which seems to be a change from the strategy at the start of the year…

Interesting.
bruce g Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:13 pm

Seems to me it is time to consider amalgamation of GM and Ford.
They face the prospect of being numbers three and four in the forseeable future. A amalgamation would make more efficient use of the technology GM is developing and presumeably make them number one again.
Perhaps the US goverment could buy them both?

Just joking…
Tim Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Um, this is what all of the auto companies are saying…five or so years to mass production. So far I’ve heard it from execs from GM, Ford, Toyota, and I believe Honda stated it as well…I’m sure we’d all like to see it come sooner, but the tech still takes time. Fortunately GM and Ford have the right idea with substantially improving the combustion cars in the interim…a few mil. better gas cars on the road beats the number of hybrids that the market can sell…think about it, the Prius is the bright spot in hybrids, and even there its questionable whether the company makes and money on the vehicle. Honda cut the hybrid Accord altogether and other models have remained low volume. So yeah, we need these changes in the interim, and in five years we should have some solid tech ready for prime time.
Texas Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:21 pm

Relax folks! It’s just a smokescreen. Even the Volt will take 5 years to reach high volume production. Expect news within 6 months of the new Ford project (it’s not new to them). They have one of the best CEOs on Earth. He won’t let us down. If he does, he’s off my Christmas list. lol
Cautious Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 8:30 pm

I guess GM will have a year or two without a serious competitor. So it’s going to take a while for the price to start falling. The more competitors the better for consumers.
Marcus R Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:09 pm

Its sooooooo hard to build a reliable electric car. The batteries aren’t ready, they won’t last, people will get confused. The price is too high. Please. Tesla’s starting to ramp up and this listing for a RAV4 EV makes me wish I owned one when they cost $42K from Toyota.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=230254014549

Still on the original NiMH batteries getting nearly 100 mi/charge and nothing electrically wrong with it ever.

Ford themselves made an F-150 EV around the same time this car was made in addition to purchasing (& later selling) th!nk. I’m sick of Ford and can’t wait to sell my Five Hundred. They don’t know how to capitalize on anything at the top.
JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:15 pm

I think the article is very misleading. They seem to be saying plug-in, but then mix in hybrid.

If they just mean plug-in EV, then I think they are on the same time line as everyone else.

Ford has made and will continue in the hybrid market, but a pure plug-in within 5 years is not surprising.
john1701a Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:19 pm

24 >> INCIDENTALLY THE PRIUS DOES NOT GET 50-60MPG BUT ONLY 40MPG DUE TO THE 10% ETHANOL ADDED TO THE GAS. SPEAK TO ANY PRIUS OWNER.

52.8 MPG was the calculated result of my last tank, 444 miles of mixed driving using 10% ethanol.

48.0 MPG is the lifetime average from driving using 10% ethanol for 102,188 miles over the past 4.75 years.

The use of motors & batteries to improve MPG is well proven. This Prius owner has squashed your attempt to undermine.
JEC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:25 pm

67 John1701a

Wow! These are good numbers. I am guessing your an engineer, and keep a log book of every trip you make, right?

I wish I could afford a Prius, and I know I will not be able to afford the Volt, but I keep reading/posting on this site, because something inside me says I really want an electric car, be it a Volt or some other car.

Anyway thanks for real life data, it’s always good to see.
Cautious Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:36 pm

See the link below for the Tesla charging computer demo. I’d hope GM will do something similar on the Volt. Controlling charge times is crucial for saving money on electric rates and minimizing the Volts impact on the grid. Also, setting the car to economy or standard mode is important for better controlling regenerative breaking, and minimum charge levels. And for 40K, the Volt ought to have some cool factor touchscreens. Sheesh.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10002322-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5
Get Sirius Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Ford may soon buy GM outright. Technically they will call it a “merge”. It happened in Satellite Radio, when a little fish called Sirius bought a big fish called XM. Get ready GM, the little fish are circling.
Official JUNK Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:44 pm

Today, GM, Ford and Chrysler LLC have been lowered to deeper “junk” status by S&P ratings (B-minus). This is six(6) levels BELOW investment-grade. The Big 3 are no longer just junk, they are now officially SUPER JUNK. What this means is that all three car makers will be paying extremely high interest rates for a long time, making it harder for them to compete with foreign competition.
LazP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Ford is working with the pioneers in this field at the UC.Davis California. So do not underestimate their approach. But I know one of their marketing guy called GM’s Volt approach.”Hail Mary”you guys recall in one of these threads.. So clearly they are taking a more deliberate approach to electrification. We cannot know at this time which approach is more successful. I still vote for the Volt.
Just another comment: Once we adopt the Volt and similar concepts, petroleum usage will not be our enemy. Excessive use is. In our chasing of petroleum reduction, we need to remember that we are still the word’s no 3 largest domestic crude producers (after Saudi Arabia and Russia!. Our problem is that we are also the largest importers of same. We do not have to eliminate usage but reduce it so we minimize importation. I still feel very strongly that the best most economical range extender is gasoline not these other alternate fuels.
Marty McFly Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:50 pm

#71 LazP :
Actually, the best range extender would be a Flux Capacitor.
john1701a Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:51 pm

>> because something inside me says I really want an electric car

My first taste of that was 8 years ago, when I drove a Prius. Since then, my experiences have been documented with 1670 pages of blogs, 1576 photos, and a pile of spreadsheets. Click my id for the link to the website. (Yes, your assumption of detail available was quite correct.)

That need to spread hybrid technology into the mainstream has become a passion. It’s why I push for realistic expectations from Volt. A niche design simply won’t cut it. High volume is absolutely essential. Penetration must be deep, rapid, and affordable. And with 8 years of experience already…
LazP Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Actually the comment by Ford about the 5 years to mass production is huge change from previous comments where they were talking about 15 years mainly because of the lithium battery development. I suspect the shortened time refers to NIH batteries not Li.
OhmExcited Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:10 pm

Don’t blame Ford. This costs a lost of money, and involves a lot of risk. Battery technology is very dicey, if you don’t have a foothold on exclusive agreements with companies with the latest technology.

Evolving from piston engines to electrified drivetrains is going to be a long, slow road.
DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:14 pm

#68 JEC - “I wish I could afford a Prius, and I know I will not be able to afford the Volt, but I keep reading/posting on this site, because something inside me says I really want an electric car, be it a Volt or some other car.”

The conceptual hurdle with electric cars is that a BEV is a car and a lifetime supply of gas, but many look at the price and compare it to a standard ICE engine car. The car I drive has 144,000 miles on the odometer. At current gas prices, the difference between those miles on a BEV and a ICE vehicle that gets 23 mpg is almost $32,000. YMMV but in some ways with a BEV the actual car is free.

Going forward that cost differential will continue to rise along with the price of gasoline. Hopefully someday this difference will be reflected in the loan or lease terms offered to you.
Lunatic Fan Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Vast majority people lost rationale due to fervid desire for EV and absolute hate for high gas price. EV/PHEV on a commercial scale is no ganrantee to be successful and certainly requires huge investment and produce minimum payoff for quite sometime for any manufacturer. It is very doubtful GM brags so much about their Volt project w/o even thinking what might happen to them should they even flop a little bit. Ford tests PHEV in Caliornia right now, showing they are interested in PHEV, considering all Detroit three is near collapse, it is important to know the battery life in real EV/PHEV driving condition before completely betting the whole company on something unproven+expensive.
Paul-R Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Morgan (#55),

Thanks for the info. You clearly have more experience than me in this area. I have two degrees in engineering, but I’ve never done such vehicle modifications.

I would be very interested in your opinions of their conversion process after reviewing the “DIY Ranger” tab on their site. This tab shows the conversion of a brand new 2008 Ford Ranger from start to finish. That’s six pages of step-by-step info that contains 100+ detailed photos and even some videos of the converted Ranger being tested on their dyno. I was impressed by their clever engineering and attention to detail. They claim the weight of the converted vehicle (using Li or Ni batteries) is about the same as stock.

Clearly, warrantee support, safety, and reliability concerns are important too. Such a conversion is probably for someone who is adventurous and/or a decent mechanic. If I were more of a vehicle mechanic (or lived closer to their base of operations), I would consider it. But I would also value your opinion … maybe I’m missing some obvious problem with their conversion.
DonC Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:14 pm

#71 LazP - “In our chasing of petroleum reduction, we need to remember that we are still the word’s no 3 largest domestic crude producers (after Saudi Arabia and Russia!. Our problem is that we are also the largest importers of same. We do not have to eliminate usage but reduce it so we minimize importation. I still feel very strongly that the best most economical range extender is gasoline not these other alternate fuels.”

The problem with worrying about too much oil demand destruction is that there is no reason to worry. We import about 60% of our oil. Of the oil we use, about 66% of it is used in transportation, which includes everything from the oil that goes into your car to jet fuel that goes into airplanes. If we all started driving BEVs tomorrow we’d still have to import oil. Even if everything other than airplanes were BEVs we’d have just about enough domestic oil for our needs.

But that wouldn’t last of course. Our production is dropping like a rock and nothing is going to stop that trend. (No Virginia, there is no oil fairy offshore). So in a few years we’d still be back to importing oil.

Basically, of all the things we need to worry about, too much oil demand destruction is not one of them.
CDAVIS Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:22 pm

_____________________________________________________
Breaking News: Solar-Power Breakthrough!

“Researchers have found a cheap and easy way to store the energy made by solar power.”
Published by MIT July 31, 2008: http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/21155
—

I have never been a big fan of hydrogen as a fuel source because of the large amount of energy input required to generate the hydrogen but perhaps there may be a place for hydrogen fuel in future EVs if the above MIT inovation pans out. We are living in a very fluid and innovative times. The next 10 years is gong to be a wild ride!

GM is smart to be getting a running head start in EV/EREV because that is without a doubt the future sooner rather than later.
_____________________________________________________
RamZ Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:32 pm

Ford’s attitude toward electrics is very disapointing. I have an OEM Ford Ranger EV made back in 2000 and I love it. They made this great truck eight years ago you would think they could move a little faster at coming up with something new. The CEO of Ford is from Boeing and I’d like to think he would be a little more forward looking than what we are hearing out of Ford. I heard at the San Jose Plu-in conference the Ford rep was totally clueless about electrics. What a shame. I was thinking of buying some Ford stock as it is so low, but now I can see why it’s so low.
Darius Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 2:38 am

Nonsense. Why should car maker should care aboud residual car value and the battery price. I think after five years the real (not nominal) new battery prices will be much lower and they will last longer. On other hand not all consumers travel 40 miles distance every day or they can accept some range extension more offen. As soon as charging outlets will be more accesible during day time it will double electric distance.
Darius Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 3:00 am

Nonsense. Why should car maker should care about residual car value and the battery price. I think after five years the real (not nominal) new battery prices will be much lower and they will last longer. On other hand not all consumers travel 40 miles distance every day or they can accept some range extension more often. As soon as charging outlets will be more accessible during day time it will double electric distance.

#30
Jeff M

I did not knew anything about Volvo ECC story. I was wondering why it disappeared. The same story with Volvo recharge. No funding. Ford as major shareholder blocking development.
Dave G Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 4:44 am

#80 CDAVIS says: “Breaking News: Solar-Power Breakthrough! “Researchers have found a cheap and easy way to store the energy made by solar power.”
————————————————————————————–
Why would you want to store solar power? Over 90% of solar power systems sold are “grid tie” systems.

Excess power from the solar system is fed back to the grid during daylight hours. Your electric meter spins backwards. So the grid already acts like a big “battery”. Power companies love this because solar systems generate the most power during peak demand.

The main reason to use batteries with a solar system is if you live in a very remote area that has no electrical service.

The issue with solar is the cost of the solar panels.
Frank D Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 5:12 am

Food for thought, Ford. If anyone is interested, this article is a wake up call to the likes of Ford and other seemingly “asleep at the wheel” companies that have a problem with innovation. We can’t afford to miss out on this “electrification” of the automobile. If we don’t, some other highly motivated country will. Good luck GM!
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/01/business/01factory.php
Schmeltz Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 7:14 am

I have to wonder about Ford and their true sincerity of Plug-ins being 5 years away. Not that I don’t believe the statement, or even that I’m looking through rose colored glasses, but I would have to argue that the seriousness Automakers are taking with PHEV’s in this time is unprecendented. You have automakers now saying “we can and will do this” instead of “we might do this if…”. In my observation of Ford, they seem to be reluctant to be the first to jump in the pool, but they still have their swimming trunks on, and are getting ready like everyone else. Perhaps their approach is wise for their own individual situation, since we all know they can’t afford to mess this up. Not to say GM can afford to mess up either, but GM was further along with EV technology to begin with.

With all that said, I would still like to see a Plug-in Escape sooner rather than later. Hopefully someday the thought of a PHEV won’t be so daunting and scary, and we will see them everywhere.
THOM Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 7:14 am

“For its part Ford is testing 20 plug-ins in Southern California as a research effort with utility companies.”

AT LEAST FORD HAS SOMETHING OUT THERE…WHO IS BEHIND??

SO FAR THIS SO CALLED VOLT IS JUST TALK! ITS KIND OF STUPID TO CUT DOWN FORD WHEN YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO BRING TO THE TABLE OTHER THAN SPECULATION.
Demetrius Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 7:15 am

I don’t really see much of a difference between a 5 year old EV with weak or dead batteries and a 5 year old ICE with a blown transmission. When this happens you have to pay to fix it or throw it away… Nothing new.
Michigan Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 7:25 am

China’s Industrial Ambition Soars to High-Tech
Ryan Pyle for The New York Times
The assembly line at a BYD auto plant in Shenzhen, China. Cars are part of the company’s shift toward higher-end products.
By DAVID BARBOZA

Published: August 1, 2008
SHENZHEN, China — Few people have heard of the BYD Corporation — BYD for Build Your Dream — but this little-known company has grown into the world’s second-largest battery producer in less than a decade of existence. Now it plans to make a great leap forward: “We’d like to make a green energy car, a plug-in,” said Paul Lin, a BYD marketing executive. “We think we can do that.”

Even in go-go China, such lofty aspirations may sound far-fetched. But BYD has built a 16-million-square-foot auto assembly plant here and hired a team of Italian-trained car designers; it plans to build a green hybrid by the end of the year.
noel park Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 11:02 am

#81 CDAVIS:

Thanks for the amazing link.

#90 Michigan:

Yeah, “Lead, follow, or get out of the way”!

Fortunately, the market is so huge that I doubt if even the Chinese can fill it all. They can probably sell every one they can make in China for the foreseeable future. Unless, of course, their long range marketing strategy dictates something else????
Rudy Z Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 11:41 am

I don’t see Ford making an electric car anytime soon. They’ll make electric SUV’s and pickups. They seems to lost interest in cars somewhere around 1996.
Kevin R Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 11:45 am

I think it’s hysterical that Ford would diss the electrification of the automobile. No matter how you slice it, no matter how you want to look at it, gasoline powered cars are going to go the way of the ‘rocket powered’ experimental cars and the model T. It’s inevitable, it’s necessary, and it’s time….the American and Canadian public desire it, they just can’t buy them yet. If they were in showrooms now, they would fly out of there like milk for cereal.

I say horray for GM, the Volt and the Team…..hit a home run guys and gals…..get it out soon, get them out in quantity and you’ll be in first place before you can swing your bat.
KC_Eric Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 11:53 am

Bye-bye Ford. Nice knowing you.
CDAVIS Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 12:45 pm

______________________________________________________
#85 Dave G asks me:
“Why would you want to store solar power? Over 90% of solar power systems sold are “grid tie” systems.”

My Answer:
If large solar farms can directly and efficiently produce hydrogen fuel which can then be later converted back to electricity by way of a low cost hydrogen/electric fuel cell converter, as proposed in the MIT article, then it may be economical and desirable to use such a setup as the range extender in an EREV. The advantage of hydrogen fuel cells is that they have no moving parts, can be made small and light, and makes no noise. In this regard, it trumps an ICE as a range extender. Admittedly there are some big “ifs” and would there would be several years of development required. I had earlier heard about this particular project from one of my smart VC associates but I shrugged it off as another blue sky wacky hydrogen project; now I’m intrigued after reading the published report.
______________________________________________________
GM Volt Fan Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Free trivia of the day … did you know that the top guy in marketing at Ford is the cousin of (the late) Saturday Night Live comedian Chris Farley? Yep. James Farley …. a much thinner version of Chris. It looks like they have similar hairstyles though.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_32/b4095040365207.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story

http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/21/chrisfarley1.jpg

At Ford, James Farley better be a good motivational speaker like Matt Foley or they might all be “sleeping in a van down by the river”.
Mark Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 9:09 pm

Most people are missing the real reasons why no large established automaker will sell an EV:

Did you know that it’s possible to build a full sized electric vehicle (EV), freeway capable for more than 100 miles per charge with batteries that last the life of the vehicle, and with air conditioning and power windows, etc. (not the costly Tesla)? This is without research into Lithium or other exotic batteries (like the Tesla) but instead with proven Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries. This car has been on the road for 10 years now as an embarrassment to the entities that stand against the existence of an electric vehicle: It is the Toyota electric Rav4.

The “research required” line we always hear is a big lie, which unfortunately, most of us believe.

Who does not want EV’s in our driveways:

-Big Automakers, because they, and their dealer networks do not earn significant revenue by selling cars. A look at how large their service departments are (and our out-of-wallet experience with them) shows what’s at stake revenue-wise because EV’s never need service beyond tire changes. They don’t even need brake jobs due to electronic regenerative braking that does most of the work. Their ordinary friction brake pads and rotors thus last the life of the car (as shown on the Toyota electric Rav4).
The large car companies depend on their service department, like printer companies depend on sale of ink cartridges. Note: Why did Toyota sell the Rav4 instead of leasing and crushing as GM did? It’s a mystery, but I came across a blog that mentioned that a Toyota exec at a public speech mistakenly said that the cars would be sold, and so to save face, Toyota reluctantly sold the Rav4. Buyers, however, now post on blogs that they actually had difficulty in getting the dealer to sell them an electric Rav4. As a journalist, you can probably resolve this apparent contradiction of why Toyota would build the Rav4 EV but not want to sell it.

-Large oil companies, for obvious reasons. Note they are also major stockholder in auto companies and thus probably have influence over their board of directors.

-Kragens, Jiffy Lube, Smog Check Stations, muffler/brake centers, etc.

Final Comment: There is a viable battery, the “95 AH NiMH Large Format” battery. This powers the Rav4 EV.
This battery is no longer sold (why?), but instead a much smaller capacity battery, a 10 AH NiMH battery is sold to go into the hybrid cars we now drive. This smaller capacity battery insures the car still mostly runs on gas.

There are many web sites that explore these issues. Google: “Rav4 EV” or “95 AH Large Format NiMH battery”, or you can visit this amateur web site: http://www.evprogress.org/ which has various links and research that an investigative journalist will find intriguing.
Pester Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:00 am

American workers working for American companies is better America. Some Japanese automakers employ Americans but the profits go back to Japan. We are still bleeding cash out of the country.
Randy Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:58 am

In 5 years they will be looking at everyones taillights.
Your missing the boat FORD
Morgan Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:29 pm

79 Paul-R:

I apologize for taking so long on this but I was busy at work. The gas and credit crunch is in the process of dismantling all the business in my industry

I, personally, would have severe reservations about purchasing from LionEV. Going through their site they make several umm…exagerrations or misrepresentations.

They are not bailment approved upfitters for Ford. They claim they are purchasing from a fleet account but this is false since fleet accounts and approved upfitters (conversion companies) receive and order their vehicles directly from Ford or GM. They are getting drop ship units from their local Ford dealer or other dealerships. This is a way to get around the quality controls that a bailment account requires. They are ordering them in 10 at a time to limit the amount of time the vehicle is in their possession before it gets titled to the end user in order to avoid being caught or poo poo’d by the dealerships floorplan finance company. This used to be a pretty common practice prior to bailment pools being implemented in the early 90’s. This is all speculation but there are enough oddities regarding ordering and purchasing from their website that don’t jibe with the capabilities a fleet account approved upfitter would be able to do (With a fleet account or bailment you can order as many vehicles as you want and in whatever flavor of package you want or color)

What this means for you…their warranty claim regarding full manufacturer’s warranty outside of the drive train is….iffy. It depends on the dealership. If the service department at your local dealer doesn’t mind the conversion he will implement the warranty on any of the interior components. If he sends a flag up Ford (or any OEM) will very likely come back that your warranty is void because you messed with major vehicle components.
Moe Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

Oil and gas will be used as fuel and for heating for a long time.
Millions of trucks on the road will not convert to electric. Nor will farm equipment or diesel-electric train engines. At least in the foreseeable future.
I am in the cheering section for GM. Go Go Go GM !
We have to start somewhere and get our passenger vehicles converted to electric or some other form of propulsion which will free up the gas and oil supply for use in the heavy equipment.
I’m retired and only drive 6-10,000 miles a year. Even at $4.00 the cost is not so bad really. However if GM can pull it off and make something like the planned Volt for a halfway decent price, I want one ! I don’t need one but I want one. The idea of waving at the gas stations as I drive by plus telling the Arabs what to with their oil and just the coolness of driving an electric, quiet running auto are enough for me.
There is definitely a market for millions of Volts if GM can do it right.
GM, Just do it !

Ford: Mass Production of Plug-in Electric Cars at Least 5 Years Away

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