AND 
EEStor Announces Third Party Verification of Key Production Milestone
Even though they are not involved in the Chevy Volt project, we follow EEStor on this site because of the remarkable energy storage potential that their technology could represent.
Based on barite, their storage units if shown to perform as they are purported to, could hold several times the energy at a fraction of the cost and weight of lithium-ion batteries, and could have a practically unlimited lifetime.
EEStor is based in Texas and is extremely stealth about their work, although production level storage units are supposed to be delivered by the end of this year to be used in the ZENN electric car.
Today EEStor has broken a long stretch of silence with a press release. They have demonstrated to a third party verification source that they are indeed able to produce their chemical energy storage substrate powder at 99.52% purity. The powder is called CMBT (for ceramic-based barium titanate).
Per the press release, "this level of crystallization provides the path for the possibility of EEStor, Inc. providing the published energy storage for present products and major advancements in energy storage for future products."
It was also verified that the powder could be produced in the 1 micron range with a very limited range distribution, and that the aluminum oxide coating can have a voltage breakdown of 1,100 volts per micron whereas the working target for the EESU is only 350 volts per micron.
ZENN Motor Company has an exclusive licensing agreement with ZENN for use of it in cars and partial ownership. CEO Ian Clifford said this about today’s announcement:
"We see this as a very positive step forward for EEStor. Our next material milestone with EEStor is the third party verification of permittivity of their production materials and we look forward to that as well."
EEStor officials thus far have not responded to requests for comment.
Source (MarketWatch )
107 Responses to “EEStor Announces Third Party Verification of Key Production Milestone”
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July 29th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Hmmmm…how about a working prototype of the final product?
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July 29th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Interesting…So now they have the dielectric solution, or at least it seems possible.
I admit I am VERY interested in this technology. If they can really build this ultra cap, this could be the holy grail for electric vehicles. But they still have a long way to go, to prove they can actually produce something commercially. A lab experiment is one thing, but being able to produce this in required mass is quite another.
I guess we wait again.
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July 29th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Im excited,
Bob, Hold the orders for the battery factory, there may be something better on the horizon.
Wasnt there some discussion the permativity may fall at high voltages?
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July 29th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
This is interesting but these guys appear very fishy. If they have something useful, lets see some real results (ie: prototype with specifications). There are labs all over the country with wild tales of a great new future based on their experimental resutls.
I think GM should follow this stuff closely but they need the batteries developed more importantly.
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
The EEStor powered Lockheed Flying Saucer just buzzed the water tower in my town !
WOW ! I guess I was wrong all that time !
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Actually my first post about this being the holy grail for electric vehicles, was very short-sighted.
This would impact so much of what/how we do things. The major issues with brownouts/blackouts could be solved. All things related to motor controls, such as inverter drives would be improved. Storing solar and wind power could be cheap and reliable. This list will grow and grow.
This really could be a game changing technology, if (Big IF) this can really be manufactured.
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
I love it. I have NO idea if it works or not but it sure makes life interesting. Maybe that is why GM has not signed a battery contract yet. JMHO This could be BIG! We will just have to wait and see. I love it when the whole game changes in an instant. Lots of people run for cover.
Take Care
Arch
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
How exciting (not) a third party has verified they can make powder.
What happened to the third party verification of the ESU?
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Um, maybe it’s just this article, but could we be any more vague? “Third party verification source.” Who the heck was it? Did they come in for a 10-minute tour, or did a guy in a trench coat hand them a vial containing a mysterious powder? Do they have a report? Can the report be reviewed?
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
If it is so revolutionary, why are they wasting their time with ZENN vehicles? They are junk compared to other companies. I’m suprised GM didn’t sign them to an exclusive contract.
But why crappy ZENN motors? I just hope this technology works, and can one day power a future e-flex vehicle.
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Seeing to believe….I don’t see nothing yet.
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Being ’secret’ is sort if a double-edged sword. On one hand, they want to remain secret until they have something working so that no oil company will buy them out. On the other hand..because of their secrecy, there’s lots of room for doubt, skepticism, and people calling them ‘vapourware’
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July 29th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
#9 MarkinWI
“Um, maybe it’s just this article, but could we be any more vague? “Third party verification source.” Who the heck was it?”
I really hope they’ve got something, But, I thought the same thing. Wonder why they didn’t disclose the 3rd party?
The other thing is, if it IS true, EEStor drove the worst bargain ever signing an exclusive with Zenn. No offense to Zenn. But if this is the greatest advancement in electric storage history, wouldn’t you look to a larger more established company? Or, at least, give other companies a chance to bid on it?
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Great, another “verification” of powder purity. These guys seem to be a long way from a working cell.
That said, this is the first time I’ve ever heard them mention breakdown voltage. Breakdown is one of the “gotchas” detractors harp on. EEStor didn’t measure this ultra-high breakdown voltage, mind you, someone else who apparently does not have access to EEStor powder told them about it. Very odd.
Also odd is the mention of polarization. I don’t know enough about this technology to understand what polarization achieves. I do not recall reading about it in their patent. Breakthrough or smoke and mirrors?
FWIW, some detractors say a coating could certainly increase breakdown voltage. But it would kill capacitance. I still haven’t seen anything from EEStor which indicates they can simultaneously achieve high capacitance and high breakdown voltage. If you can’t do both you’ve got bupkus.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Well maybe this is good news? Who knows. I read the press release…not exactly a blockbuster screenplay, quite a yawner.
Sounds to me like a press release saying a third party has verified they have hit their own internal goals on product purity: “has achieved their goal of producing powder particles in the range of 1 micron with a very narrow particle size distribution”
Could they be any farther away from production if they tried? I guess that is the question. Maybe your kids will glean some advantage from this, I doubt we will. And I’m still in my mid 30s.
I will give a personal example.
I’m big into the ’solar thing,’ no big secret there. You know how long ‘cheap, low cost’ solar has been ‘just around the corner’? About 10 years now. I eventually bit the bullet and said I’ll just go ‘old school’ panels a few years and take my chances looking like a idiot. Why? Because I’ll be a old man before I see any follow-thru.
People still say to me, ‘hey why did you do that, Nanosolar this, or First Solar that’ Well, you know what, Nanosolar promised cheap $1/w panels for 2005, 2006, 2007, now 2008. And true they have chunked out some (to monster players)…and are producing some now. To this day they don’t “publicly disclose the technical specifications or wholesale costs” or sell to the public. Side to note to this, I have attempted to buy 100kW through any source …unsuccessfully, best case–”try back in 18-24 months”
Long story short.
Don’t wait on the ’silver bullet,’ if you have the opportunity to buy a electric vehicle that you can get service on in your local area…just do it.
At this point, personally I could really care less if I have a ‘ultra-cap,’ a Li-Ion,or lead acid battery in my EV. I don’t even care if the EV goes 10 miles, 40 miles, 100 miles.
So to the automakers of the world, build whatever kind of EV you like…just build it already!
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Hello
Two things: I follow the EEStor development out of curiosity, because what they claim to have achieved is fantastic and could solve many problems.
However, their secrecy is a bit disappointing. I agree with Hous Volt Pharteen: As long as I can’t see more than a few drawings and press releases, I am not convinced.
The second thing is more … simple:
Quote: “ZENN Motor Company has an exclusive licensing agreement with ZENN…” — I think there’s something wrong here. Or not. I have lots of exclusive licensing agreements with myself
Cheers,
Skywolf
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
How about a conspiracy theory?
The claims are true…however the company will fail and an unknown party (Lockheed) will acquire the rights to the tech. Due to the terms of the agreement, details can not be disclosed…in reality, the secrecy is due to national security. The tech could be used for military applications.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
ZENN Motors DOESN’T have exclusive license to the technology – they have exclusive license to market to automakers building cars less than 1400 kgs and for all conversion business. If you all had been paying attention when CEO Clifford was interviewed by Lyle, you’d recall that ZENN isn’t planning to get into the auto business as a manufacturer (with the exception that they will perform some final assembly on the already announced Citycar that will be manufactured abroad by a third party OEM). They will also have exclusive marketing rights and be partnered with EEStor on all auto conversions. Why would EEStor want to partner with a company like GM, which would want exclusive use of the device? That wouldn’t make ANY sense, at least not for EEStor. They want their devices in cars made by every automaker on the planet.
Obviously no one on this blog knows enough to judge the significance of the third party test results announced today, but I notice that the item is being picked up far and wide (and, naturally, confused).
From all the reports that I’ve read about the solid state devices
that EEStor is developing, unless they are not mentioning some of their less than steller attributes, they seem destined to make obsolete every battery technology out there.
And I do own some ZENN Motors stock, just to be upfront. I
wonder what’ll happen during tomorrow’s trading session?
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
“The other thing is, if it IS true, EEStor drove the worst bargain ever signing an exclusive with Zenn. No offense to Zenn. But if this is the greatest advancement in electric storage history, wouldn’t you look to a larger more established company? Or, at least, give other companies a chance to bid on it?”
Because no one else would.
So if its real, ZENN is laughing to the bank.
If its not.. they’re out a few million in investments.
If it is real, they can build “real” EV’s (faster than 50km/h or whatever their current max is) and take over the vehicle market.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Are my following statements correct or incorrect.
1. EEStor has never made a working prototype.
2. EEStors claims as to what the designed device can do are not universally supported by other scientist. In other words some scientist say the device as designed by EEStor doesn’t work like claimed.
If #2 is correct AND the descenting scientist are right then this claim of producing the required powerder simply means they can produce a device that doesn’t work as claimed. So I guess we are still waiting to see which group of scientist are right.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Okay, I admit I do not know enopugh about how close a super capacitor is to a regular capacitor as far as its properties, but this could be HUUUUGE in the transmission grid to have utility scale EEStors located throughout the distribution network.
I know industries have to keep capacitors on site to help alieviate the inductive losses, but not residential houses. Having power factors of .58 to .61 in my house means their is significant losses thoughout my neighborhood.
If my understanding of super caps are wrong and it acts more like a battery, having utility size EEStors can help buffer erratic renewable energy for demand during peak hours.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
“If it is real, they can build “real” EV’s (faster than 50km/h or whatever their current max is) and take over the vehicle market.”
You do realize, EVs go over 100 MPH (MPH, not KPH), right?
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Let’s all stay calm until we see a production ready prototype. I have a little battery in my phone that works. Tesla Motors has a big battery in their car that works. GM has a medium battery in their Malib-Mule that works. Until EEStor produces ‘true’ results with an actual product, I think GM should stay on track with proven tech. Hold the superultracapbatteryunbeliveableproducts units for E-flex 2.0. As has been said before……this has to work right the first time or the public will freak out.
-
Also, have we gotten any new news on the Malib-Mules?
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
18 Canehdian:
I think Lockheed also jumped onboard. Not sure if it was in a monetary fashion or not. But its not just ZENN
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I’m still in denial…
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Lockheed products are totally different from cars. Capacitors are great power supplys for solid-state lasers or microwave weapons, and this stuff is not science fiction anymore. If EEStor demonstrates even a minor improvement over other super capacitors that’ll be of interest to Lockheed. These devices need huge amounts of energy in a few seconds, something batteries can not do. But cars are totally different because you are looking for extremely high power densities. You don’t have huge power spikes, you have long continuous draws. So the environment is very different.
I just wanted to list some doubts about EEStor’s claims
1 – academics are very doubtful
2 – they haven’t demonstrated the tech
3 – they are completely secretive
4 – real car companies have not signed on
Did I miss something? I wish them the best but as of now its in the same zone as room temperature super conduction. Just around the corner for 30 years now.
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July 29th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
#19 omegaman66
The minds of many who have questioned the technology may be changed by “the third party verification of permittivity”, assuming of course it’s positive.
#17 kent beuchert – “wonder what’ll happen during tomorrow’s trading session?”
Probably nothing. I think this AND a positive permittivity test (at about 90%) are already baked into Zenn’s stock price. Don’t you think that EEStor (and Zenn) already know the results of the testing? As a publicly traded company Zenn can’t officially “know”, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t have a very good idea.
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
What a load of Crap! That was what we were waiting for? I couldn’t be more disappointed. They already claimed to have passed evaluation for the same purity several months ago. Add to that there are no specifics that we can check an you can almost smell the scam. Here is what was written way back in April..
“EEStor has announced passing an evaluation on purity of its production process. Explain why this is important.”
http://agoracom.com/ir/ZENN/messages/800836
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Here is another article that gives more details on who did it:
http://media.cleantech.com/3173/eestor-gets-scientific-backing-its-advanced-batteries
The article states that EEStor made this announcement on the same day that Maxwell Technologies announced a licensing deal with Golden Dragon Bus to use Maxwell ultracapacitors.
Fishy.
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I for one hope EESTOR is on to something and can make the ultra capacitor work as they have stated. What a great addition to my green garage it would be… storing all the power from solar cells and wind chargers all day to charge my volt when I return home.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO VOLT
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
21, jes
“You do realize, EVs go over 100 MPH (MPH, not KPH), right?”
Yeah, I am well aware (the volt, tesla, and lightning are prime examples.)
That comment was on ZENN’s current line up. They are only low speed EV’s.
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
What EVAH!
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Announcement means NOTHING… and again correct me if I am wrong. But the whole debate on whether the EEStor ultracap work or not doesn’t have anything to do with if they can make the device they describe does it?
I think if the ability of the EEStor device to be produced and work as EEStor claims hinged on being able to produce pure powder we would have been jumping for joy 2 years ago.
If the model is broken, making the parts for the model (the pure powder in this case) doesn’t help much now does it.
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:02 am
This will revolutionize the EV industry and probably other industries as well. The Oil companies will want this technology baaaad and nobody has the money to outbid them. GM and others may be in trouble if this tech is legit. I hope it is. Just think.
- FULL CHARGE IN MINUTES
- 500+ MILE EV RANGE POSSIBLE
YES !
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Whoah! what a year this is turning out to be!
Edgar Mitchell walked on the moon and says UFOs are real.
8′-8″, 600 lb male bigfoot killed and recovered in Georgia
and now replacement technology the the ICE!
2008 is the best year ever!
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:25 am
I’m just wondering why there is a picture of a fuel cell on an article about a supposed “capacitor”…
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:30 am
bruce g #3
There’s always something on the horizon but you have to start somewhere. Its clear that that li-ion battery power will be replaced by something better, that’s the nature of the beast. Scientific knowledge is getting much closer to rising exponentially.
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Cool, so how many screws can you loosen if that thing powers a DeWalt electric screwdriver???
Plenty of loose screws here!!!
Cheers
Red HHR
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July 30th, 2008 at 12:36 am
#35, VancouverJon
You noticed that too, huh?
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Just to clear up a couple of points:
1) They did name the 3rd party verifying source in the press release.
2) EEstor has been invested in by Zenn, Kleiner Perkins VC (behind Google, Amazon etc) and Lockhead. Zenn have exclusive rights tom use the tech in cars up to a certain weight. Lockhead have exclusive right to use it for defense purposes.
3) The announcement is somewhat significant. It’s another step along the way. The true test is the 3rd party permittivity test, which Zenn requires to be passed before it releases more funds. This is sadly well overdue.
Personally, I think they are having problems with the permittivity test – which spoils everything. But I don’t think it’s a hoax.
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:08 am
George K:
“But if this is the greatest advancement in electric storage history, wouldn’t you look to a larger more established company? Or, at least, give other companies a chance to bid on it?”
*** *** ***
George, you’re just much too logical. Moi and MANY others have been stating this for quite some time. It’s obvious that both companies need each other, and need to go mainstream. Zenn is on the brink of the various Chapters, and Eestor is the prince of hope and hype. Think about it! If they had a product they’d be aligned with a solid auto company that could almost guarantee success!
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:39 am
I’ve seen a few responses on this topic along the lines of: “…sounds fishy”
History repeats itself — ever hear of something called Cold Fusion?
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:48 am
Yeah, wasn’t that a Siera Mist commercial?
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:59 am
The weight range that Zenn owns on the EEstor technology is 1400 kg or less, or 3086 lbs. That rules out compact cars and smaller for any other companies to get their hands on. Mid-size sedans and larger though make the mark and would be able to employ the EEstor ultra capacitor without infringing on anyone’s ownership rights. Can anyone say “EEstor electric Malibu?”
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:05 am
Of course they’re going to be tight-lipped about their technological development. Lockheed Martin, one of the nation’s largest defense contractors, has secured future rights to this technology for military applications. Do you think Lockheed wants them broadcasting their efforts to everyone under the sun? Then again, we no doubt have the sharpest minds on earth here with us writing responses to this article and stating that this technology is just a fantasy. So, I guess the engineers and scientists at Lockheed and Zenn are just a bunch of idiots, right?
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:27 am
This is crap. We are STILL waiting for the 3rd party permitivity test results.
Something is wrong here.
I’m really starting to doubt the validity of EEstor.
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:31 am
re no. 39 Finnsense
Item 3. The real test is third party test of permittivity
No, the real test is a working prototype operating at high enough voltage to hold the promised energy density. You could have high permittivity at low voltage and this would mean nothing. The energy stored by a capacitor goes by the square of the voltage times the capacitance. Double the capacitance, double the energy. Double the voltage, quadruple the energy. This whole game requires successful operation at high voltages (several thousand volts). All kinds of things can get very unhappy when you apply several thousand volts across a very small distance (necessary for the high capacitance).
Hey, if you want a real conspiracy theory, lets just say that EESTOR is actually a stealth disinformation operation created by oil interests. The more they can make people think that there is some miracle breakthrough just around the corner, the more they can delay the adoption of existing proven battery technologies. Hey, maybe a good movie script? And, no, I don’t have any proof of this, nor would I bet a red cent on it. But I also wouldn’t bet a red cent on this stuff ever achieving higher energy density than todays batteries.
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Well, I just finished reading the MarketWatch article. It sounds an awful lot like they are bragging that a laboratory equipment calibration service has verified that all of their lab equipment will take accurate measurements.
If they know that all of these special characteristics are necessary for their device to work, then they would have to have tested devices. But I see no hint of that from the article.
But it is nice to know that their voltmeters and oscilloscopes are properly calibrated.
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July 30th, 2008 at 3:11 am
Ed,
I have to say I am getting a little impatient with GM and their dithering over batteries, They are reputed to have suggested they may build their own factory recently.
And while dithering they appear to be out leveraging the Volt concept to certain foreign goverments.
Perhaps this has always happened, but now it is done in the glare of publicity.
I hope it is all tidied up soon,, Im cheering for LG Chem. They probably arent the most high tech but arguably are the most experienced manufacturers.
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July 30th, 2008 at 3:51 am
EEScam
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July 30th, 2008 at 4:16 am
#49 Texas
“EEScam”
BINGO!!
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July 30th, 2008 at 4:25 am
Re: 47
“Well, I just finished reading the MarketWatch article. It sounds an awful lot like they are bragging that a laboratory equipment calibration service has verified that all of their lab equipment will take accurate measurements.”
Please note that one company did certify the equipment, but that others certified the particle and electrical analysis.
1. Texas Research International certified their equipment.
2: Southwest Research Institute, Inc. is at least one of the “outside sources” confirming the aluminum oxide coating’s breakdown voltage.
(this company info is in their January 17, 2007 presser, as referred to in the MarketWatch article)
3: Mr. Ian Treviranus of HORIBA Instruments, Inc. confirmed for particle sizes.
4. purity test: sounds like it was done internally using instruments certified by Texas Research International.
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July 30th, 2008 at 4:55 am
I’m skeptical as usual, but it’s good to see people trying. More headlines like this have to make big oil cringe a little bit every time.
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:19 am
It will really become exciting when they build a prototype, release specifications and announce mass production plans. Until then it can only stir the imagination a little.
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Estero #53:
I agree. Research is an amazing thing, but until it leaves the lab and is a product available to give us a tangible benefit, it doesn’t really mean much…………..
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:47 am
There is no way that ZENN motors get their cityZenn in production in 2009. Even if EEStor is a reality, they are moving at a snail’s pace.
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Follow the money and hold on to yours. Do these people know about flying cars too?
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:55 am
“this level of crystallization provides the path for the possibility of EEStor, Inc. providing the published energy storage for present products and major advancements in energy storage for future products.”
Read carefully POSSIBILITY. It’s a pump and dump stock until they have a product. How long have they been in business and no working model to show the masses.
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:11 am
To me this technology is as far off today as ‘cheap solar’ was a decade ago.
ie) we are still waiting
(PS, don’t tell me about Nanosolar, lol. They were going to have cheap panelling out in 2005, 2006, 2007, now 2008. I tried to get 100kW out of them, they won’t even talk to me, they want gov’t subsidized corporate monsters only…and they are completly booked with those guys through 2010 already).
Quite frankly, just like I bit the bullet and bought traditional solar panels a few years ago…I will buy any EV, that goes any distance, on any type of storage platform…I don’t need a breakthrough miracle. I just need a electric car.
Just build it already.
(paraphrasing old comment thats in moderation atm)
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:14 am
I’m not saying that the product is real, but the founder of EESTor, Weir is a real scientist. He worked for IBM and patented coatings for hard drive shielding that look to be a lot similar to what he’s trying to do with this capacitor.
For this to be false it would have to be intentional fraud by Weir. I just can’t see an established scientist pulling this scam.
The shortcoming with BaTi caps has always been that fields that the were created by increasing voltage limited and interfered with their performance. Weir’s specialty was shielding hard drives from magnetic fields. It seems to be a sister problem.
I won’t say it’s legit, but the time frame for development has been reasonable, the investors in EEStor, perkins and Lockheed in particular are experts in technology, and I haven’t seen a single thing that’s shown them to be scammers.
It might not meet the full expectations, but I think we’ll see something. If not, it’s no skin off my teeth, EESTor doesn’t even allow outside investors so nobody is losing money to them in the general public.
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:30 am
No prototype? Why give them the time of day?
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:33 am
I’ll be back…I have to go look up “permititivty” and maybe find out about why “purity” matters in this special “powder” and why it is important that it can be “produced in the 1 micron range”
meanwhile, I second…no wait third, Statik’s comments on an electric car, save the miracles…..although I do like reading about them to pass the time unitl they finally get around to…
…just build it already!
I’ll continue looking forward to Sept when we get to see the “final” Volt design….
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Remeber we were going to ’see’ the Volt soon…like Sept.
Not so much:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080730/AUTO01/807300346/1148
If your a employee you get a glimpse…as long as you don’t own a camera.
No final decision has been made on when and where the Volt will be revealed to employees — and eventually the public, but spokeswoman Karla Coleman said, “It’s going to be soon.”
“GM plans to unveil the revised Volt at either the Los Angeles International Auto Show in November or the Detroit auto show in January, a person familiar with the company’s plans said. ”
Hmm…the auto show huh? That sounds familar…
One more snippet from the article:
The automaker recently showed a near-production version of the Volt to a focus group in southern California. “It was very positive,” Coleman said. “It’s not like we can change the design at this point, but we want to hear feedback about how we’re doing.” — Larry Burns, GM’s vice president for research and development, has said the final version would bear “a clear family resemblance” to the concept vehicle
Makes alot of sense to show a product you can’t change to a focus group.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Hans Christian Andersen did the third-party certification-that-EEstor-has-a-machine-and-knows-how-it-works:
“‘Don’t hesitate to tell us what you think of it,’ said one of the weavers.
“‘Oh, it’s beautiful -it’s enchanting.’ The old minister peered through his spectacles. ‘Such a pattern, what colors! I’ll be sure to tell the Emperor how delighted I am with it.’
“‘We’re pleased to hear that,’ the swindlers said. They proceeded to name all the colors and to explain the intricate pattern. The old minister paid the closest attention, so that he could tell it all to the Emperor. And so he did.
“The swindlers at once asked for more money, more silk and gold thread, to get on with the weaving. But it all went into their pockets. Not a thread went into the looms, though they worked at their weaving as hard as ever.”
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:02 am
#15 Statik:
“So to the automakers of the world, build whatever kind of EV you like…just build it already!”
Amen brother.
News like the above article is encouraging, but someone needs to show me in plain sight. Otherwise it’s just talk. Not to be a Doubting Thomas, but like Statik illustrated so well with Solar as an example, so much of this stuff is just around the corner. I hope EEStor pans out, but just provide the proof in a tangible operating product that people can touch and see it in operation, doing all of the things they said it would do. I’ve suggested on this site before, isn’t there someone with some intelligence on these things at GM that could physically go to EEStor and validate this? Larry Burns? John Laukner? Are you guys listening?
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Wake me up when you have 3rd. party verification of their FINAL product working as advertised. Anything else is just B.S.!
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:08 am
EEStor announced they intend to create a revolutionary new bologna sandwich and after years of very secret work, they announce that TRI, a ‘for hire, but independent’ research company, after cashing EEStor’s check, has confirmed that EEStor is indeed full of baloney. I’m impressed.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Ahhhh….so WE dont get to see it in September….how dare I make that assumption, my bad.
Wonder if any of these special “employees” might have a backgrounds as criminal sketch artists?
Oh and “permittivity” is a measure of a materials ability to resist the formation of an electric field within it….that helps me a little bit but that’s enough “learning” for me today…back to work
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:10 am
#67 Schmeltz
“News like the above article is encouraging, but someone needs to show me in plain sight. Otherwise it’s just talk. Not to be a Doubting Thomas, but like Statik illustrated so well with Solar as an example, so much of this stuff is just around the corner. I hope EEStor pans out, but just provide the proof in a tangible operating product that people can touch and see it in operation, doing all of the things they said it would do. ”
Exactly.
The point is, even if EEStor had a fully operational storage system working RIGHT NOW, and they whole world could see it…RIGHT NOW. How long would it take from RIGHT NOW to get it through copyrights, regulations and into a production vehicle and into pubilc showrooms? 3-4 years? At best that quickly…and they aren’t anywhere near having a completed prototype.
That being said, I do like to hear about it, it is always good to be informed about ‘future tech’…and I appreciate that you are posting these types of articles Lyle.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:13 am
EEPower Announces Third Party Verification of Key Production Milestones for Energy Breakthrough.
Florida Testing service has announced that they have verified the testing accurcy of EEP’s test equipment to measure the purity, dielectric constant, and molecule size of the key component of EEP’s process. The particle size of this component was determined to have a very narrow particle size distribution. The breakdown voltage was measured as 30,000V per mm. This is a big milestone in EEPs goal to produce the world’s first commercial fusion reactor from their key component, water. Production will start in thirty years.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:14 am
#70 Murray
“Ahhhh….so WE dont get to see it in September….how dare I make that assumption, my bad. Wonder if any of these special “employees” might have a backgrounds as criminal sketch artists?:
Hehe, sorry when I seen you post the, “I’ll continue looking forward to Sept when we get to see the “final” Volt design” I had to do it, lol.
I hope they do indeed let the employees ’see’ it…you just know someone will sneak a picture or two out, regardless of how hard GM tries to contain it. (Like the Camaro on the test production line in Oshawa). On the other hand, maybe GM wants to ‘leak’ a fuzzy picture to the ‘internets’ to get a reaction…you never know.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:18 am
I wish EEStor a lot of luck, seriously.
But I am still not holding my breath.
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Schmeltz #65:
“I’ve suggested on this site before, isn’t there someone with some intelligence on these things at GM that could physically go to EEStor and validate this? Larry Burns? John Laukner? Are you guys listening?”
A great idea, but there is no prototype to validate!
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:23 am
TAC just posted the text of the letter GM send out to it’s US dealers about leasing.
Officially leasing is continuing through August trying to get out selected 08 and 09 vehicles, however there is no guarantee past that and the lease calculations are being ‘adjusted’ (ie- down to a level that guarantees that residuals will be higher) The numbers haven’t been released to dealers yet, but it is expected the ‘new math’ will make straight financing yield a lower payment than the lease. This effectively cuts off leasing…without cutting off leasing for August.
Copy of fax:
To all U.S. Dealers:
The announcement last week that Chrysler was discontinuing all leasing in the United States was big news and widely covered. You may also be aware that Chrysler had previously announced the discontinuation of incentivized leasing in Canada. Yesterday, GMAC in Canada announced it will exit incentivized leasing on August 1. Further, it is worth noting Ford Motor Company and Honda Motor Company recently announced they were taking an impairment against their lease portfolios. Suffice it to say, numerous factors are driving up the risks and costs of leasing and therefore, it is coming under increased scrutiny across the industry.
All of this has prompted numerous inquiries from our dealers regarding GM vehicle lease business in the United States.
Obviously, current financial pressures will continue to affect our perspective on leasing. That said, while we obviously can’t make guarantees, we are in the market today with competitive programs to make GMAC leasing more affordable and plan on continuing to offer this financing alternative as part of our August incentive play on ‘08 and ‘09 models (with some adjustments and exceptions).
Over the last few years and months, lease vehicles have become a smaller percentage of our sales, and we do see this trend continuing due to the relative high cost and risk compared to traditional cash or APR business. This is why we offer a balanced menu of cash incentives, APR and leasing programs to make GMAC financing an affordable alternative on almost every product in our lineup.
Rest assured we will make every effort to stay aggressive in this hypercompetitive market.
Thanks for your support.
Mark LaNeve
Vice President
Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:36 am
I find it hard to criticize what EESTOR is doing because almost everything we know about what they are doing is second hand information or rumor. They haven’t put together any sort of PR effort. We don’t know what they’ve told Zenn or Lockheed or what evidence they have supplied. They don’t seem to be actively selling their stock.
They’ve made one outrageous claim and that is that they are developing a capacitor capable of storing a huge amount of energy. Beyond that, they aren’t talking. Well, now we know that they are using some form of Barium Titanate powder and, for some reason, it has to be very pure.
This doesn’t sound like a scam to me because there doesn’t seem to be any way for them to make any money unless they actually deliver the goods. I don’t know about Zenn but Lockheed and Kleiner Perkins know what they are doing. They may be fooled by the technology but they won’t invest without proper accounting which means that the investment capitol has to go running the company. They seem to be building a factory for something.
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July 30th, 2008 at 9:06 am
“Being ’secret’ is sort if a double-edged sword. On one hand, they want to remain secret until they have something working so that no oil company will buy them out.”
Mark, I disagree with your thinking on this. You can’t be bought out if you’re not for sale; these guys are a private company, which is why they can be so opaque to begin with. They are flush with venture capital right now, and only a buisness idiot would go public before they have a real product on the market. Why would anyone sell a barrell of oil today and give away tomarrow’s well for free?
The fallacy with the ‘oil companies prevent revolutionary energy from coming to market’ conspiracy theory is that oil companis just don’t have that kind of power, and only a moron would sell out to them if they actually had a truly revolutionary product that could replace oil.
Any way you cut it, it just plain smells of dead fish that EEStor has yet to demonstrate a working proto-type publically. One can’t figure out how it works just by looking at it, any more than detonating atomic bombs in tests would teach observers how to build one of their own. Let’s see the bloody thing already.
EEstor reminds me of the Hodag, a mythical creature that supposedly lived in a cave in Wisconsin. Some guy made a small fortune in the last century, taking people close enough to the cave where they could hear the Hodag, but no actually showing them the Hodag. Naturally, the Hodag didn’t actually exist, and eventually people grew weary of the constant promises (unfulfilled) to finally trot out the Hodag for all to see.
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July 30th, 2008 at 9:15 am
FWIW (probably not much):
…Maybe we have been thinking the wrong way around. We’ve been thinking of how someone could make some monster, high-power capacitor without it exploding from the electric fields involved.
Maybe what we should be asking is, how small can you make a capacitor? They seem obsessed with powder diameter and purity, and they want to coat it with a substance which would seem to limit it’s actual capacitance in a larger device.
Uniform diameter and purity would be important for a nanoscale device. The high-voltage insulator which coats it suggests to me that perhaps the actual capacitors (hang on to your hat), are the individual powder particles themselves. In other words, perhaps what EEstor has done is make the capacitor equivalent of a quantum dot. What we are thinking (and they are hinting) of as a large-scale capacitor storage unit could, in reality, be merely a macro-size box full of sub-micro devices.
The tiny size of these nano-capacitors would mean that the effective dialectric voltage for each would be quite small; summed over a gajillion units for the power storage without destructive electric fields.
I am only blowing smoke here, and no, I don’t really know how you could put power in or take power out of a powder of capacitors in a box without arranging the little buggars inside very carefully. Maybe each particle discharges to recharge it’s neighbor, eventually propogating charges to the perimeter of the box as power is withdrawn.
This notion of nano-capacitors seems to violate one of the primary distinctions of a capacitor; that you have two conductors in close proximity accumulating an electric field as a potential. Like quantum dots, there could be a size-critical exception which might have been noticed by a scientist working to protect the tiny components in a hard drive from magnetic forces on a very small scale.
In other words, the powder itself might be the “prototype” we’ve all been demanding.
Just a WAG …
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July 30th, 2008 at 10:18 am
EEstor Haiku #2
The wind blows lightly
Up your backside, near wallet
Vaporware “demo”
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July 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
The effect of the EEStor myth is to inhibit investment in Lithium Ion Battery production facilities, because if the story turns out to be true, then the facilities would become as obsolete as 13 MPG SUV’s. It is vapor-ware folks, build the production facilities. Ask yourself why we have stories of GM building the ICE production facility but no story of building the battery production facility.
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July 30th, 2008 at 10:43 am
I don’t want to appear to be on EESTor’s side, but we don’t know if there’s a prototype or not.
In the Lockheed interview he was careful to say that they haven’t independently tested a prototype, but he never said that they hadn’t seen one.
I’m following EESTor, but I’d never buy stock. If they do get something close to what they say it’ll change everything, even if it never sees the inside of a car. I could comfortably live off the grid with energy storage like this.
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July 30th, 2008 at 10:59 am
A couple of general points to make here:
1) God knows if EEStor is for real, but if it is, I’m not surprised they are acting somewhat secretive. Technical details on their production process could be stolen and then modified slightly to avoid patent issues. In addition, some countries have a lot less regard for patents and intellectual property in general.
2) If EEStor does pan out, that would be great. But if it doesn’t, Li/Ion and other storage technologies will meet our needs. The only major issue is cost. When Li/Ion based cars start selling in significant quantities, then people will figure out how to make Li/Ion cheap.
3) Talk of EEStor and other future storage technologies tends to confuse some people into thinking that driving on electricity is not yet viable. We need to remind people that Li/Ion is taking off right now, and that a breakthrough like EEStor would just be icing on the cake.
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July 30th, 2008 at 11:07 am
#72 Rashiid Amul:
I’m with you.
Somehow this all reminds me of the late, great, Jim Healy who announced the Laker games, seemingly forever. When someone was fouled in the act of shooting, he would yell:
“It’ll count if it goes!” Then about half the time he would yell: “It didn’t go!
Another of his favorites was:
“He throws up a prayer!” Half the time the follow up would be: “And it’s answered!” The other half of the time it would be: “And it’s not answered!”
So, this will be great if it works. If it doesn’t, I don’t think that too many of us have our 401ks tied up in it. Maybe it can augment the batteries on the Gen 2 Volt.
And yeah, thanks Lyle for keeping us up to speed on this.
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July 30th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Worth considering.
If in fact EEStor is onto something and that this can work even in reduced capacity then a company like Lockheed Martin who has close ties to the Department of Defense may have a a vested interest in protecting this technology, ie non disclosure and in my mind it’s a plausible scenario that there is a cloak of secrecy being imposed by Lockheed Martin and the DOD to keep this technology under wraps.
Yes, the general public knows that EEStor is looking to revolutionize the stored energy world with this and we’ve seen bits and pieces however there may be more worth protecting (not disclosing) of this technology than we realize.
Ever since Lockheed Martin got their noses into this I’ve been suspicious. It’s reasonable to assume that it peaked someones interest fairly high up in the DOD and perhaps Lockheed Martin acting as an agent for the DOD has clamped the lid. DARPA has been looking for this holy grail for quite some time now and there are military projects out there that are just waiting for the “power storage” problem to be resolved. Projects that would significantly change the way weapons systems are deployed and operated. It would overnite solve the problem associated with directed energy and beam weapon systems just to name one. If this technology is to be believed, a BIG if then it’s far too important to roll out into automobiles first. That’s just the nuts and bolts guys and gals. If this technology exists then we the general public will not be the first to see or benefit from it. PERIOD.
Ya know, it’s even occured to me that this ZENN arrangement could be nothing more than smoke to throw the dogs off the trail. Don’t laugh, it’s been done before. When the U.S. was in the throws of developing the BOMB they were very careful to compartentilize the project so that no one manufacturer had any idea as to what they were actually making.
Yeah, I know this is an off the wall thought but it may have more merit than one would first think.
Food for thought!
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July 30th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
#83 250volts says: “If in fact EEStor is onto something and that this can work even in reduced capacity then a company like Lockheed Martin who has close ties to the Department of Defense may have a a vested interest in protecting this technology, ie non disclosure and in my mind it’s a plausible scenario that there is a cloak of secrecy being imposed by Lockheed Martin and the DOD to keep this technology under wraps. … If this technology is to be believed, a BIG if, then it’s far too important to roll out into automobiles first.”
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Normally I would agree with you, but in this case our country’s national security is being threated more by importing $700 Billion worth of foreign oil every year.
Let’s put it this way, would you rather:
1) have better weapons based on EEStor technology to help fight terrorists?
2) use EEStor to replace oil and take away the terrorist’s funding?
Cold War tactics won’t win the war on terror. We need to stop funding both sides of this war. If EESor technology is for real, it would be better to use it in automobiles.
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
#84 Dave G:
#2, by all means.
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Holy crow. If you didn’t have patience when you started visiting this site, you will by the time the Volt comes out.
Be well – and patient,
Tag
/sigh
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
This EEStor technology looks interesting, but does anyone know anything about the Standford nanowire battery? They claim it can hold ten times the energy of a li-ion battery.
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July 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Stanford’s battery is Lithium Ion, using Silicon nanowires in the anode. I haven’t seen much about it since January:
http://nanotechnologytoday.blogspot.com/2008/01/stanfords-nanowire-battery-holds-10.html
I expect scaling up for commercial volumes could take awhile, regardless of the researchers’ optimism.
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July 30th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
That’s nice.
(Since designing caps aren’t my engineering speciality, I’ll wait until they have an actual cap evaluated by a third party before I get really excited about it. Supposedly, they were going to deliver production units to Zenn later this year so hopefully I won’t have long to wait. I’ll look forward to that with some anticipation, but I can afford to save the big excitement until then
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July 30th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
To not put to fine a point on it: EEStor has made some incredible promises and so far they have supposedly been meeting their goals/milestones that were set forth.
Keep in mind that EEStor gets money from ZENN each time they meet a milestone…. putting it simply. Sounds like they are on track and yes admittedly they still have a long way to go, but the end of the year is coming pretty quick. (bust out the popcorn, this should be good for some amazement or a laugh!)
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July 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Before someone nails me on it, it was actually Chick Hearn. Sorry about that. Jim Healy was a big fan of his, and played little tapes of his colorful calls on his radio program all the time.
Another of Chick’s old standbys was:
“Faked him into the popcorn machine.”
Maybe that has some application here too???
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July 30th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Yeah, but, but … what if this new EEStor ultracapacitor really IS a world changing thing that turns the whole energy world upside down? What would OPEC and Big Oil do? A radical new energy storage technology like EEStor is talking about could cause the oil industry to shrink in size by 80% maybe.
Oil would only be used for plastics and pharmaceuticals mainly and not for transportation. Exxon Mobil made a record $40 billion in profits in 2007 from oil for transportation. What would the fatcat oil sheiks in the Middle East do? They would have to cut back on their plans to buy more luxury hotels, yachts, cars, planes, military weapons and so forth. We should feel sorry for Big Oil and OPEC … those poor people.
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
If I remember correctly the new hydrogen technology is just around the corner too, but under wraps because it has military uses. Has anyone figured out just what our black budget is these days?
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I don’t think they know where it’s coming from any better than we do, but it’s pretty clear that Big Oil sees the writing on the wall. Both Exxon and BP both spent more on stock buy-backs than they did on exploration last year.
Still, straw man press releases that report any party’s finding of the achievement of an undecipherable milestone are more likely to be for the purpose of fostering deer-in-the-headlights investment than understanding. It’s all “quack” to me and recognizing the waddle, I’d bet on it being a duck – LockeedMartin & all.
Besides, if I’m wrong we all still win.
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July 30th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
#92 GM Volt Fan says: “Yeah, but, but … what if this new EEStor ultracapacitor really IS a world changing thing that turns the whole energy world upside down? What would OPEC and Big Oil do? A radical new energy storage technology like EEStor is talking about could cause the oil industry to shrink in size by 80% maybe.”
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My point is that we could do that with Lithium Ion batteries. The main issue is the cost.
Right now large format Li/Ion batteries for cars are in the early development and testing stage. The engineers are mostly focused on getting the packs to work reliably in all conditions.
But when these batteries get to the production stage, and the manufacturing plants start turning packs out at 10,000 per month, I bet someone will get clever and find a way to make the batteries for 1/3 of what they cost now.
Now if EESor can come along with a better mouse trap for 1/10 the cost, that would be icing on the cake.
But if EEStor doesn’t pan out, we can still reach our vision with Lithium Ion and/or some other battery technology. The trick is to get the manufacturing unit volumes up. That’s when innovation in the manufacturing process kicks in and costs drop. But how will pack sales ramp up if the Volt costs $40K? That where government tax credits could help. It would break the chicken/egg scenario and get volumes to ramp up much sooner.
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July 31st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
How is this different fron their press release of January, 2007?
From Wikipedia:
“In January, 2007, an independent company certified EEStor’s production line’s process as producing 99.9994% purity barium titanate powder, sufficient for achieving the desired permittivity.”
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July 31st, 2008 at 9:31 pm
95. Dave G.
I’m hoping that the scientists and engineers can COMBINE the best features of lithium ion batteries with the best features of EEStor’s ultracapacitors and create a “hybrid capacitor/battery” … an ULTRA CAPATTERY?
http://www.evanscap.com/the_capattery.htm
I’m thinking we could use one EEStor capacitor for “regenerative braking” energy storage, another EEStor capacitor for “quick charging” and another EEStor capacitor for “quick bursts” of power for passing and climbing hills. Ultracapacitors are very good at rapidly pulling in electricity and rapidly discharging it but not storing very much electricity. That’s where the lithium ion batteries come in. The EEStor capacitors should have more energy storage capacity than previous kinds of capacitors but the lithium ion batteries have a LOT more storage capacity.
The lithium ion batteries would be the longer term, high energy capacity storage tank … like a hard drive on a computer. The EEStor ultracaps would be the short term, bursty energy storage device …. like the SDRAM on a computer.
You could rapidly fill up your EEStor ultracaps at a “quick charge charging station” and then the ultracaps “feed” the lithium ion batteries up with electricity at a slower rate … eventually filling them up as you go down the road after a recharge.
The ultracaps wouldn’t hold a lot of charge except when recharging or doing a lot of braking coming down a big mountain. This would make the ultracaps a lot safer, they wouldn’t leak much energy, etc. For fast acceleration or going uphill the ultracaps, even at 1/10 energy capacity would still be able to give your electric car plenty of boost. This could be very useful for trucks as well as cars.
Just my speculative 2 cents. I’m certainly not a battery or capacitor scientist.
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July 31st, 2008 at 9:37 pm
GM Volt Fan@97
“…an ultra capattery?…”
Hmm, or Batcacitor…
Be well,
Tag
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July 31st, 2008 at 10:43 pm
This has all the attrtibutes of a pure rip-off.
Oodles and Oodles of Press Releases and funding deals. Lots of irrelevant and information that makes no sense but sounds like techno- babble -wizardry. Major deals with with nobody companies to build them “soon”. No prototypes to see, to touch, or to evaluate. Or any real specifications to ponder.
It’s all in the sweet bye and bye! Did a proven swindler like Jimmy Swaggert, Billy Bob Bakker or Algore dream this up? Invest now, save your souls and save the World. Is EEstor one of the Gorical’s wonder companies? If not it sounds like it should be…
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August 1st, 2008 at 9:06 am
Sometimes I wonder if anybody reads things anymore, or is it all narraive. They achieved 1,000 volts per micron of dielectric material. Keep in mind that power stored in a capacitor is increases with the square of the voltage. Thus, if you increase voltage by 3x, you increase power by 9x. Previous post about permitivity is spot on. If that holds up, they’ve done it.
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August 1st, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Mike, did YOU read the press release? EEStor did not “achieve 1,000 volts per micron of dielectric material”. An outside source says purified aluminum oxide can withstand 1,100 V/micron. But Al2O3 is NOT their dielectric. It’s just a coating. A coating which detractors claim will drastically reduce their capacitance, by the way.
EEStor talks of high permittivity, and BaTiO3 indeed has high permittivity. EEStor talks of high breakdown voltage, and Al2O3 indeed has high breakdown voltage. But EEStor has never demonstrated it all in a single package. Experts say it won’t work. EEStor says with high enough purity and nanoscale fabrication it WILL work. Maybe it will. Everyone knows water freezes at 0 deg C, correct? But pure water in a smooth container will remain liquid at -20 or -30 deg C, and really pure water in lab conditions can go much lower. Time will tell if EEStor can build a device which changes our understanding of physics. I hope they do, but it’s pretty clear they haven’t yet.
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August 2nd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Sorry, I did miss the nuance about the coating, but, regardless, they achieved 3x the voltage point on the coating. And voltage does trump capacitance. And I do agree that nano scale and purity are the kickers here. Capacitance formulas are full of magic numbers based on experience with macro scale materials. I refuse to believe that they have not seen this work in lab scale quantities. If the argument is it cannot scale, that Issue is a valid concern. They wouldn’t have been the first to founder on that issue. Permitivity is going to be interesting.
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August 4th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I think that it is important that everyone understand that the fraud issue be settled. I call it fraud because the gov’t does not take lightly corporations that make any sort of statements (however mild or midleading) that induce investment under any sort of false pretenses. It would also be highly unusual that a corporation would commit fraud over such an extended period of time. There is no reason to believe that Weir has violated any concrete laws of physics without certainty.
I am a finance person (not a battery head). I have reason to know that the gov’t is NOT going to put up with another fraud for one second.
So what does this mean? There must be some basis in fact for EEStor’s statements that is beyond our knowledge base. Which I might point out is one reason why EEStor is being secretive. It wants to keep it that way.
Patents:
Don’t get hung up in your underwear on patents. My father worked for IBM for over 30 years. IBM would NEVER patent their best stuff. NEVER. On their best proprietary hardware they kept tract of every single part on every single machine they sold. This includes parts in a serviceman’s hands. Servicemen were given parts with time limits that had to be returned to inventory. IBM sued the pants off of anyone that copied thier proprietary stuff. So – it was known – If you patented your best stuff it was like it was like giving out candy in a kid’s store and putting a spotlight on it – just giving it away! Just forget about the patent stuff meaning anything.
Wasn’t Richard Weir an ex IBMer or Xerox. IBM or Xerox you can bet that they are all the same. They all come from the same mold.
I see the number one biggest issue being technological hurdles of mass production and theft of intelectual property. There is no good reason, having read all of the blogs, that Richard Weir’s EESU isn’t, in fact, real. The issue is focusing on getting a workable solution to market on a scale that captures the market share before others get the chance to do it.
EEStor will have many enemies. You don’t disrupt an economy with a development like EEStor claims without causing a lot of disruption and pain. You can bet your house that the EESU is a holy grail in the denfense industry. It is probably the key remaining obsticle in mobile missle defense. So you can count on the enemies of the US as potential disruptors of this new technology.
This opportunity, on the other hand, “is priceless”.
Lith-ion technology. I’m sorry but as some others have said, I see this technology as complementary to L-ion. They both will do different things. I can’t see the use for a 3,000 volt supercap in my kid’s games, laptop or even my Ipod. Do you? Do you really think they’l let me take one on a plane? C’mon, there will be a gazillion different uses for super duper lith-ion batteries. Even if EEStor succeeds.
I’m calling my broker and investing in Zenn and Lockheed Martin. There the only options. I’m not betting my house but I think it is foolish to ignore it.
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August 4th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I am sorry Rick, but your last post sounds like a Sham-WOW commercial – a lot of important sounding statements, with absolutely nothing to back it up. Actually, at least Sham-WOW has a product you get for your money!
If, as you say, the government will not put up with companies making false statements to induce investment, why have the not pounced upon the owners of ZAP Motors? There is story after story of them taking money and not delivering anything to customers and potential dealers.
And since EEStor is not a publicly traded company, the owner can say whatever he wants to say. If people want to privately invest in his company, that is their business.
You can’t take away a person’s right to be greedy and/or stupid…………..
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August 5th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Even privately held Cos. must not commit fraud. With Kleiner Perkins and Lockheed looking over their shoulder it is even less likely.
I also find very little solid motive, in all of the releases and blogs, to cause a fraud, so far. Do any of you?
This means, at face value, that the invesment risk is primarily scientific and production related. I believe that if a product was produced by EEStor with even a third of the promised capability – it would be valuable. Maybe less, but still valuable.
Finally, both ZENN (Who is now making money according to their latest financials) and Lockheed (who we all should know) could benefit greatly from a success at EEStor. The downside of an EEStor failure would not be a total loss for either.
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August 12th, 2008 at 9:40 am
I find the whole eestor thing very unlikely as Weir has made the claim that there is a production facility currently under construction in the Cedar Park area.
A PI was hired to dig into this and found absolutely nothing, kind of hard to hide a factory on 200 to 300 acres.
http://aaron-allaboutoil.blogspot.com/
Also, I’ve discovered that Richard S. Wier, the son of Richard D. Weir runs an internet marketting company, well what more would you need to start a pump and dump internet scam than an internet marketting professional? I tried pointing this out on http://www.theeestory.com but they quickly tried to erase all evidence that I was member on the site. my motto was find the building, find the proof. I suspect that the admin of http://www.theeestory.com with their anonymous dns hosting information and anonymous contact info and eestor are one in the same entities.
Its a shame that so much attention has been given to this snake oil technology, when legitimate science like the silicon nano-wire battery holds a much greater promise.
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August 12th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Nanowire’s pretty interesting. The promise of high energy density is subject to the architecture’s internal resistance (IR) that correlates to the amount of heating during high power operations that limits the depth of discharge (DOD) – the amount of usable energy per cycle.
FWIW: So far, Altairnano owns the record for low IR, measuring in the milliohm range, and they get the extreme temperature (-40, +260 F) and high power/low heating performance that’s expected. This qualifies them to provide high value megawatt-scale batteries for power grid stabilization and military uses that provide rapid payback, low maintenance, and long life using a product made in the USA.
Too bad that it will be years, if ever, before this product is moved to commodity production so it will only be available in $200k vehicles for the time being. It’s interesting that an 11.5kwh Altair battery will yield the same DOD as the 18kwh A123/whoever Volt contenders and weigh about the same but require none of the elaborate temperature management infrastructure now being engineered to make the contenders perform and last acceptably.
If nanowire research yields low IR, better DOD Density (my invention) and can be produced economically, Altair will have chosen the right niche for its product. But while I’ll drive the Volt I can afford (the $7k planned credit will help), the Lightning concept is still very appealing. With four wheel motors and an ocean of Altair storage, it’ll go 0-60 < 4 sec.
By me, all the Lightning needs to be perfect is an ultra light, ultra low emission Rotapower/UQM range extender (4 moving parts total). The massive genset that’s being planned for the Volt will result in a performance hit and be comparatively high maintenance for owners and it will be a millstone around GM’s neck that competitors will seize on to get an advantage. Aside from my good wishes for the people of Flint MI, I wish GM wasn’t building a new plant right now to make this oil-soaked technology so it’d be easier to advance when the competition comes.
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