Update: Saturn VUE 2-Mode Plug-in Hybrid
GM’s director of Hybrid Powertrain Engineering Larry Nitz has apparently taken to calling the Saturn VUE 2-Mode plug-in hybrid the "other" GM plug-in due to all the attention the Chevy Volt gets.
At the Plug-in 2008 conference he gave an update on the vehicle and has written about it on GM’s FastLane blog.
He mentioned that there are currently 11 plug-in VUEs undergoing testing on the Milford proving grounds, and they brought one to show off at the aforementioned conference in San Jose, California.
The vehicles are based on the 2-mode hybrid front wheel drivetrain that is soon to make its appearance in the 2-mode (non plugin) VUE going into production later this year.
The plug-in prototypes are using extensively tested lithium-ion packs and Nitz notes plug-in charge integration is fully operational.
The 2-mode VUE is slated for production in 2010, and is a few months or more ahead of the Volt since the hybrid system is going into a vehicle that already exists.
It is expected that the plug-in VUE could cover up to 10 miles of electric driving range, but in practice usually never will. The is because the car is not an E-REV, the battery is integrated into the 2-mode hybrid system, and controllers will switch the vehicle between pure EV (both low and high speed) and ICE power depending on the driving needs of the moment (see prior post ).
In the end, Mr. Nitz noted the car has "the promise of potentially doubling the fuel efficiency of any current SUV." While GM has not recently given exact figures, early reports suggest 70 mpg is possible.
Source (FastLane Blog )
Popularity: 8%
Related posts:
- We’re Getting Closer…Introducing the 2-Mode Hybrid Saturn VUE
- Progress on the 2-Mode and 2-Mode Plug-in Saturn VUE
- 2009 Saturn VUE 2-Mode Hybrid First Drives
- Saturn VUE Plug-in Hybrid to Begin Production in 2010
- GM Saturn VUE Likely First Plug-in Vehicle by Major Automaker: 2009…ish
(7 votes, average: 4.71 out of 5) 
Loading ...
July 23rd, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Wow, 70mpg!
July 23rd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Great news, keep on going with your two track approach to bringing our plug-in future to fruition, GM. Go Green Motors, Go!
July 23rd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
70 MILES PER GALLON !
Bring it On !!
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
OH Yea!! its getting good.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
My Saturn Aura only get 30 mpg. This VUE is awesome. I need this vehicle NOW !!
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Great fuel economy of course, but remember you will have to plug it in to acheive 70mpg (or whatever the maximum is). Of course, we all know that electricity used as fuel is much cheaper than gasoline.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:06 pm
This is unbelievable !
The current Saturn VUE Green Line Hybrid is estimated at 25city/32hwy mpg. Jacking it up to a whopping 70 mpg would be a massive engineering accomplishment. Only GM could achieve such greatness. Put that in your tailpipe Toyota !
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:08 pm
“…extensively tested lithium-ion packs…”
Does anyone know the maker of the battery packs? 70 mpg…good enough for a start.
It will be tough waiting for a Volt. Especially if the MSRP is reasonable.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Too bad it is only front wheel drive.
How about the All Wheel Drive edition?
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Here we go again with crazy-high fuel economy ratings to call out for attention. It’s not a constant 70 mpg, but rather for the first X miles of a trip, while still remarkable, it’s a bit of a stretch of the truth.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
The last article on Coulomb Technologies covered this a bit, but plug-in hybrids like this and the volt could have a huge impact on not just transportation, but the use of renewable energy as well. I’ve heard about this for a couple years, but this seems to be the best summary I’ve seen…
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid520.php
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:26 pm
I’ve gone to the electric car gatherings and owners of the electric Toyota RAV claim 120 miles/charge. Why such a difference with the Volt (40-50)
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Excellent vehicle for short distance driving in dense cities. Fairly good for the suburbanites…
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Just get it to market soon. Anything like this will decrease our dependence on foreign oil. I’m glad GM is really gung-ho about the plug-ins and e-flex since this is also forcing the competition to get into the game. In the end, America will be using less oil and that’s better for all of us, whether we can afford a Volt or not.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:54 pm
How much will something like that go for? More than the Volt?
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
There are a several things about the plug-in VUE that make it especially appealing…..
1) The basic vehicle is one of the newest in the Saturn line-up, designed by GM in Germany as the Opel Antara crossover that’s received rave reviews…. http://www.uberauto.com/news/opel/opel_antara_-_elegant_4wd_crossover_2006080242.html *
2) The plug-in VUE will be the first vehicle to employ the FWD version of GM’s 2 mode hybrid transmission incorporating TWO 74HP oil-cooled electric motors (148 HP total)
3) Although the plug-in VUE should achieve mileage considerably better than a Prius, its gasoline engine is essentially the same engine as GM uses in the Cadillac CTS, a direct- injected 3.6L V6
4) The plug-in VUE will easily tow most boat or horse traiiers as well as 5 passengers along with all their “stuff” while delivering the performance of a powerful V6 (assisted as needed by its 148HP electric motors)
5) The plug-in VUE design will lend itself to an added-cost long-range EV-only version (approx 35 miles) by use of a 16kWh Li-Ion battery like that in the Volt (however, GM will neither confirm nor deny this for competitive reasons)
*The basic VUE has European handling, plus fit, finish & up-scale interiors comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs, which at its highly competitive pricing accounts for its ~100% increase in sales from June ‘07 to June ‘08 (while sales of most other SUVs have in general “tanked”) — we can thank Bob Lutz in large measure for this!
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
To be clear, the 70 miles includes the electric charge from plugging in. So it’s really more like 70 miles uses 1 gallon of gasoline plus some amount of coal, natural gas, or nuclear fuel that is used to make the electricity. So 70mpg is kind of a fudge.
As a comparison, the Prius plug-in conversion kits advertise 100+ mpg.
The Volt is a lot less confusing. With the Volt, you don’t add electricity to increase mpg. The first 40 miles are all electric, and anything over that is (hopefully) 50mpg. That 50mpg is all gasoline, no charge from the grid added to fudge that number.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:00 pm
#16 nasaman says: “3) Although the plug-in VUE should achieve mileage considerably better than a Prius,…”
————————————————————————————-
Be careful here. If you compare apples to apples, the plug-in Prius will get 100mpg or more.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:10 pm
18 Dave G:
And the plug in Prius has a significant factor less of the utility of a plug in VUE. Its not even Apples to Apples since most people prefer an SUV
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
#16 nasaman
I knew we’d hear from you on the plug-in Vue! Any news on a 35 mi AER plug-in Vue?
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
2010 will be known as the start of the end opec’s hold on american motorists .if only GM can weather the next 2 to 3 years , it can regain its place in the industrtal world !
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
This is really good news, because I’ve always believed that even despite current gas prices a smal/medium CUV like the Vue or GM’s Theta platform have a real place in the market. Moreover, GM N.A. isn’t going to prosper on Smart Car sized offerings.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I would love to have this technology in an Aura, or in a Cruze with the 1.4L turbo. Heck, put it in the new Camaro.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
“I’ve gone to the electric car gatherings and owners of the electric Toyota RAV claim 120 miles/charge. Why such a difference with the Volt (40-50)”
Because the Volt is very conservative in its battery usage - it only uses half the battery capacity so its really 80-100 miles, as i suspect the RAV users are talking full to empty. The volt will have MUCH longer battery life (as in.. don’t need to replace after 3-5 years) as the RAV’s probably do.
Lutz made it seem like they’re getting more than 40, so who knows what the final result will be?
This plugin vue is sounding pretty nice.. perhaps it will be my mom’s next car!
(Mine of course, will be the volt :P)
(ok.. price and availability pending.)
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
#16 nasaman
Are you sure it will use a V6 engine, like they have in the redline version of the Vue? Why not use the same Ecotec 4 cylinder engine that the current greenline uses? With those powerful electric motors, you won’t need that much power.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Yep,
Nasaman @ 16, you caught our attention with this one:
“5) The plug-in VUE design will lend itself to an added-cost long-range EV-only version (approx 35 miles) by use of a 16kWh Li-Ion battery like that in the Volt (however, GM will neither confirm nor deny this for competitive reasons) ”
I hope you’re right, but where in the world are you getting this stuff…Lyle? Magic 8 ball?
Seriously though, the plug-in Vue is a step in the right direction but the 70 mpg figure is hard to swallow unless it’s in completely opitimal conditions. Moreover, what scares the hell out of me is the complexity. Too much to go wrong. With a BEV it’s simple, no nonsense vehicle and bound to get cheaper with batteries finally being mass produced. I’ll hold off for the 40 + all electric ranges or better yet, a BEV regardless of the platform.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
#25 VancouverJon
Probably the same reason they used a 6.0 instead of a 5.3 in the Tahoe hybrid’s for more torque in the second mode (electric assist at highway speed) while in 4 cyl mode.
I know there is no active fuel management on the 3.6 but maby there will be, its on the push rod 3.9 in the impala. just a thought
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
70 miles per gallon is quite awesome indeed.
That kind of mileage will make people forget about the clean diesels that might be coming from Europe pretty quick … especially with the price of diesel fuel. People that want a small SUV/crossover are going to jump all over this car.
This looks like it’ll be a big hit for Saturn … and they need one badly. GM needs to advertise Saturns more. GOOD commercials … that is, if GM can afford big advertising campaigns these days. This car might end up selling itself based on word of mouth anyway. Get those talking heads on the 24/7 news networks talking about it and this Saturn Vue (plug in and non plug in) could take off. Advertise in all the right places on the internet too. Let’s hope the price for the plug in Vue is good. That’s what I’m worried about. Hopefully, the Vue plug-in will be a good “bang for the buck” VALUE and it gets good reviews from JD Power, Consumer Reports, the auto magazines, etc. People will be looking for quality and reliability. Exterior/interior styling is huge too … especially the exterior.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
So what is happening these days with the Volt?
Seems like we don’t hear much about it any more.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
18 Dave G…… In my post #16 I’m referring to the existing non-plug-in Prius, and only as a reference point for miles per gallon comparison
20 ThombDbhomb….. Sorry, even if I knew the status of a 35 mile AER version I’d have to “put a contract out on you” if I told you what I knew
25 VancouverJon….. Yes the plug-in VUE will DEFINITELY have the CTS-style 3.6L V6 (such as in the VUE RedLine, as you correctly say)
26 Dave B…. You asked, “where are you getting this stuff?” I have been actively lobbying GM at decision-making levels about using the Volt-technology battery in an optional version. Anyone who wants to see a 2-pg dissertation I prepared & gave to Bob Lutz (and several others in GM management) are welcome to email me directly for it. Just email nasaman@earthlink.net for “VUE Proposal”
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I like the Saturn Vue concept.
To me BIG+Electric (electric assist) is a no brainer…as long as the price is within 5-6K of it’s ‘non-hybrid’ counterpart it should be a winner.
I assume it will probably have the same battery supply issues as the Volt and therefore a low rollout capacity? Just curious does anyone know the expected production for 2010,2011?
Other news:
Another good day for GM, $14.62 up .30
Side note:
Toyota finally outsold GM decisively…no virtual tie this time. 4,817,941 to 4,540,409
GM’s number also includes a 35% increase in sales in China under the Wuling brand. Ironically GM counts full unit sales even though they only own 34% of the company…no clue how they get away with that. (Wuling/GM will sell north of 600,000 vehicles this year)
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
30 Nasaman:
I sent an email reply to you several weeks back regarding that proposal but I want to reiterate publicly.
Nasaman knows what he is talking about and everyone should look over his proposal if they get the chance. I also heard him call in on the radio and he is quite possibly the most accomplished person on this board with regard to this type of technology.
Once again Nasaman, thank you for your work in NASA. Hopefully we will all live long enough to see us go back there.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 pm
#16
If your info is good, the Vue Plug In sounds “better” than the Volt. Fuel efficient if you plug in, towing capable, more room, and could be priced in the range of other SUVs. I can not wait for the actual vehicle…hopefully we are not disappointed.
Since GM gets more respect for their SUVs (except with the green crowd that has distaste for all SUVs), this is wise move. Wish GM had it now…the 4 plants that shutdown would have something to build if it is hit.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I would loved to see this, I have the Saturn Vue Hybrid and it has been great. I think it would be better if they would use the 2.4L rather than the 3.6L or at least offer both. I think they are offering the 3.6L to compete with Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but really the Vue is way better since you can tow with it. Even my Vue will tow, try that with a Prius or Highlander and the transmision is toast. Really I am surpised that they use a CVT for their transmision they are not known for being great and robust. I can’t wait to see these, they said they are going to be working on the Plug in version going long distances EV mode. As for the 100+MPG Prius it is under 30 MPH, where I live you would be run over going that fast, so 100+MPG is a bust, since where can you drive under 30 MPH.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Statik #31
Don’t forget that GM also voluntarily limited fleet sales to improve the resale value of their mid-size vehicles among others. IIRC that was on the order of about 200K units.
Basically 34% is a controlling interest provided the other 64% is widely held. I don’t believe GM ever owned more than that same percentage of Isuzu’s stock and Isuzu basically belonged to GM. The same is true of Ford WRT Mazda, Renault and Nissan.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
34 Mark H…… You said, “Really I am surprised that they use a CVT for their transmission…”
The 2 mode VUE & the Plug-in VUE based on it do NOT use a CVT; the 2 mode transmission incorporates conventional discrete gears and 2 electric motors. The GM claim of “continuously- variable” is admittedly confusing, but it’s achieved by careful tailoring of the control algorithms.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I don’t know where the 70 MPG figure comes from, but then I never
figured out where that 150MPG claim for the Volt came fom either. Both are way off. The Volt commuting ( the only data from which any estimate can be made) clearly indicates 275 MPG for that activity in the U.S. and also shows the Saturn Vue plug-in (assuming 10 miles electric and 30 MPG on fuel alone) getting 45MPG (not 70) while commuting. These MPG estimates for electric and hybrid plug-ins
that are being thrown around in the media are seemingly based on whim. Or very poor statistics (one journalist based his on what his neighbor got while using the car for a week!!!). We need non-commuting trip statistics to nail the issue down for all driving regimens. Don’t pay attention to any of them at this point.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
37 kent beuchert….. I agree with your contention that mileage quotes for plug-ins need to be carefully explained. Unfortunately, I haven’t found anything from GM that does it —for the Volt or the plug-in VUE.
Having said that, I can tell you what I know about how the 70 mpg guesstimate probably arose….. GM has published a claim that the 2 mode VUE should deliver overall mileage 50% better than the non-hybrid VUE, and that the plug-in 2 mode should roughly double that. So using this sketchy information, the arithmetic might be something like…..
24mpg (Non-hybrid VUE) X 1.5 (2 mode) x 2 (plug-in) = 72mpg overall
But even GM doesn’t know what the actual numbers will be yet.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Where is the waiting list?
Sign me up!!!
Finally a PHEV that does not look like something you would see in a flop B kind of sci fi movie.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 pm
8 Jeff….. You asked, “Does anyone know the maker of the battery packs?”
The Li-Ion packs were originally to be supplied by Johnson Controls in collaboration with Saft (who, although not well known, are among the world’s largest battery makers) and the cells were to be from A123.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
I heard a 10-mile plug-in was coming, and while I found it interesting, it was hard to get worked up about plugging in every night to barely make it halfway to work before an engine cut in. When I heard 40 miles for the Volt, I said “WOW!”
This mileage quote kind of rings an unpleasant bell; back when gas was still much cheaper, I followed closely the coming of the Highlander Hybrid; which was first announced with 60mpg. No wait, make that 50-ish. Uh, we meant 40-ish. Eventually it wasn’t as good as I could get with my old 5-speed Saturn, in town, with judicious shifting.
Oh, and I am already sick of this mpg number “on the highway” nonsense in everyone’s commercials. What does the new ‘whatever’ get on a real driving cycle?
I don’t tow, don’t need a lot of seats, always wanted a REAL electric car. If a Volt turns out to be made of unobtainium, I’ll look seriously at the 1.4L turbo, if it comes with a 5-speed (my ankles and knees are getting old, and I would rather get out of a stick-shift; but not unless something, like an affordable hybrid, can consistently out-perform one: which the Vue could certainly do. But at what cost?)
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Nasaman, sorry I was not clear. The CVT I was talking about was the Toyota’s. I have never been a fan of Metal belt transmisions. I like what GM has done with 4 fixed gears and electric motors. It seems like it should be built to last.
Thanks Can’t wait to try a plug in Vue out.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
C’mon folks, a composite mileage figure is meaningless. What part of that is hard to understand. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in its charge sustaining mode, then the Vue will get less in its charge sustaining mode. It will have a larger less efficient engine, a worse drag factor, and it will weigh more. C’mon folks, stop biting on composite mileage figures, where you just ratio the EV miles with the gas miles to get any mileage you want from infinity to the charge sustaining mileage.
A 50% improvement to 36 MPG for the 2 Mode Hybrid, and a 10% improvement for the larger battery is also reasonable, so expect the highway mileage to be about 40 MPG in the charge sustaining mode. The good news is the city mileage should be a little better perhaps 43 MPG in the charge sustaining mode.
And if you want to claim 70 MPG, just drive 7 miles in EV mode and 11 miles in city charge sustaining mode and figure your mileage. You would burn .256 gallons and go 18 miles which works out to 70 MPG. By ratioing the miles, you can calculate any number and claim that mileage. Absolutely meaningless.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
How much is this contraption going to cost? I suppose it doesnt matter as if you can afford a horse the price of the SUV is of no consequence.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Wow, 70 MPG wow that mean that I can get to New Paltz from New York City with less than 2 gallons…Yeah baby.
In reference to Nasaman…Sir, you are the man. I thank you and look forward to your comments here at Volt nation. Hope all is well with the family. Thank you for the knowledge you have been passing along via volt nation. You are definitely making this a better place.
BY the way, I do not need to see your dissertation, I trust you. However, it would be nice to have it and frame it and hang it in the baby room so one day when he is able to read he can say, I want to be just as smart as the author of this.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:58 pm
#12 Bruce - “I’ve gone to the electric car gatherings and owners of the electric Toyota RAV claim 120 miles/charge. Why such a difference with the Volt (40-50)”
Because the Toyota RAV4-EV uses the superiour EV-95 large format NiMH battery who’s patent holder (Standard Oil) will not allow it to be used in motor vehicles, big surprise huh? This battery which was also used in the gen-2 EV1’s has been available since the early 2000’s. The battery technology is already available! Oops, that almost smacks of conspiracy.
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Since this hybrid is way ahead of the Volt in terms of production schedule, could it possibly steal all the Volt’s Thunder. Possibly. This could be the vehicle that kills the Volt. That would be ironic. Saturn kills the Volt: Details in 2010 !
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Unfortunately this technology will not fit into a small car like the cruze, cobalt etc……but a Camaro like this would sell like hot cakes.
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 pm
>> I think they are offering the 3.6L to compete with Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but really the Vue is way better since you can tow with it.
Poorly informed or spreading misconceptions? Highlander-Hybrid has always been able to tow.
>> As for the 100+MPG Prius it is under 30 MPH
Same question again. 42 MPH has always been the maximum. And the next model should increase to 62 MPH.
>> The CVT I was talking about was the Toyota’s. I have never been a fan of Metal belt transmisions.
Again! There’s no belt. Their PLANETARY type CVT uses power-carriers in a sun/ring/planet configuration.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Two Points:
1. Wow, thanks, great news
2. It isn’t 70mpg, that is what is possible, you will surely get something less. So lets say YOU might get 66 and less in adverse driving conditions.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Nasaman wrote:
“The basic VUE has … up-scale interiors comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”
Come on! I have to put up with the 70MPG, 150MPG, etc. claims, but I don’t have to swallow that bull.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Why does the VUE have a 2.4L Ecotec engine, they should have put in a supercharged 2.0L GM Ecotec engine that is used in the U.S. version of the Arial Atom super sports car. The reason they dumped the standard Honda motor for GM 4 cylinder is because it is a lot smoother running, it has almost no vibration. BTW, the supercharged 2.0 GM Ecotec generates 300 HP !!
July 24th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Does this VUE have an iPhone bluetooth interface like the Tesla Roadster has ? I must have an iPod and iPhone interface before I would consider buying this kewl car.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:12 am
So a Gen-1 Volt, or maybe a two seater Gen-2 Volt for me, and a VUE for the wife. As we still have to have two vehicles, this would be a great second vehicle. My wife only drives about 5 miles one way to work, and we need the extra space now and then to haul stuff.
With our driving requirements, I could very easily see our gasoline consumption at about 150 gallons per YEAR total for both vehicles!
Now we just have to see where it will be priced……..
July 24th, 2008 at 12:26 am
According to Nissan, Electric cars will be quickly profitable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/business/23auto.html
Show me the money !
July 24th, 2008 at 12:26 am
nasaman @ #38,
“GM has published a claim that the 2 mode VUE should deliver overall mileage 50% better than the non-hybrid VUE, and that the plug-in 2 mode should roughly double that.”
———————————————————-
Well, it depends on how you calculate “overall” mileage. Any full hybrid with regenerative braking will get much better city mileage than the same vehicle with no electrical assist. A larger battery pack with a significant “window” of usable kWh capacity via plug-in charging will enhance shorter trip mileage greatly. However, on the highway after the battery pack discharges to the state wherein the ICE provides motive power, a plugin hybrid will get no better mileage than an otherwise identical non-plugin hybrid. A plugin hybrid only has an advantage during the operation when the “stored” energy is being used. After the stored energy is depleted, both types of hybrids gain an advantage over regular ICE powered vehicles when some energy is deposited in the battery pack through regenerative braking for occasional electric motor assist. The greatest benefit of plugins come when one’s daily driving distances don’t exceed the AER range of the vehicle by too much. Over an extended 350 mile highway trip, a hybrid drivetrain will increase mileage very little over an otherwise identical ICE-only powered vehicle.
That said, I like the plugin Vue very much IF the price is reasonable. Most of my driving is stop and go city driving with total distances of 10 miles or less per trip. I need a modest amount of towing capacity PLUS the cargo space of a small to medium crossover vehicle or SUV. What is perfect for me may not work well at all for longer distance commuters, though. That is why there are choices for consumers, one size does not fit all despite the advertising.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:51 am
#11
VancouverJon
Thanks for that link; it was very interesting. I have always said that storage on the mega to gigawatt scales are needed to ever get over 75% renewable energy on the grid.
From the link:
“if half the nation’s light vehicles were ordinary plug-in hybrids they would represent a night-charging market of 230 gigawatts”
That is a huge number which can be much bigger if more types of vehicles employ electric capability. The buffering that could be done at night would be huge for shutting down a few base load power plants in lieu of more wind turbines. Base loads such as coal and nuclear could be shut down and natural gas plants which is the easiest to fluxuate to meet demand can be shut down and/or switched to high effeciency solid oxide fuel cells (47% vs 38%) and when combined with a heat engine, can produce electricity at 73%. It is just smarter use of renewable energy because the batteries are the buffers, not the gas nozzle.
However, I would make sure the controls are set to alllow no draw from the batteries until it reaches at leat 60% (slower charging is okay if other loads pull needed power from the grid) and no draw below 75% by 4:00AM and 85% by 5:30. Or adjustable times for each consumer.
This part scares me though:
“Electricity is sometimes in such demand that it could be worth dollars per kilowatt-hour, not cents. Under this new paradigm, car owners could let their batteries drain onto the grid during the day, then drive home from work on gasoline. The value of this “load shaping” could be credited to the car owner’s electricity bill.”
1) I do not want to pay $4+ dollars for a gallon of gas just to be credited a couple of dollars by the electric company. If I have to do that, they better be paying the equivilent + 10% of gasoline market value to me.
2) All their preaching of better cabon offsets of fossil fuel electric plants & transmission line losses vs. cars would all be wasted time explaining if the effecient system we have goes to some company and I have to be ineffiecent driving home. The only thing happening there is the 5-10% loss of energy by the battery charge/discharge cycle + the use of gasoline.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Re to Bruce regarding EV range of Volt compared to the Rav4-EV…
The Rav4-EV has 27.4 kwh of power in it’s Cobasys NiMH battery pack, of which I believe it can use most of that capacity. The Volt on the other hand has only 8 kwh of usable capacity (even though it’s raw pack size is 16kwh).
So range per kwh is pretty close… Volt will go 40 miles on 8 kwh, or about 5 miles per kwh. The Rav4-EV can go 120 miles on 27 kwh, or about 4.44 miles per kwh.
And for those who say the usable life of the Rav4-EV’s is less because they use more (or most) of the battery packs capacity… real life Rav4-EV’s have gone 150,000+ miles with their original battery packs. The Volt’s Li-Ion packs can only use half their raw capacity and maintain that same usable life because of the chemistry being used. Look at the EnerDel Li-Ion pack’s with a different chemistry that can use 95% of their raw capacity….
The biggest difference between the NiMH packs and the various Li-Ion packs is weight/volume… the Li-Ion can store more energy per kilogram and volume than NiMH. Also as someone mentioned above, the Cobasys NiMH chemistry is patent protected and that patent is currently owned by Chevron to whom GM sold it to (well technically it was Texaco shortly before it merged with Chevron).
July 24th, 2008 at 1:22 am
#55 Nissan Power
Thanks for that link.
Honda, Nissan, Tesla, Chevy…..whoever gets the first all EV midsize car that can get 100+ MPC for less than 50K gets my money.
Nissan doesn’t say, but the Tesla one was supposed to be 60K, right? But I don’t know the size of the car and the capacity of the batteries.
Maybe I will lease the Vue until an affordable EV comes out as I am too big for a compact any my job reqiures me to tote around a 6′ ladder which I can only do on mid size cars or better.
Or better yet, while leasing the Vue, I can tear down my Kia POS Optima and turn it electric.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:34 am
Saturn needs to do a better job at explaining this “2-mode” thing, if they expect to sell these Vue hybrids. I still have no idea what “2-mode” is, and there’s no way I would buy one unless this technology was explained to me. For a car company which is supposed to be separate from GM, they think a whole lot like GM.
Bear in mind, this is a site for BEV and PHEV “fanboys”. Most people outside this blog are clueless about both technologies. Both GM and Saturn need to educate the public before selling these alternate fuel vehicles. We’re not talking Luddites or the Amish, just regular people who may have “early adopted” some type of technology in the past, only to be burnt by it when it didn’t work or quickly went obsolete (Atari 800, Coleco Adam, Betamax, HD DVD, etc).
July 24th, 2008 at 3:43 am
Yep, like I have said all along the volt is not in my future. I have to wait for the Silverado E-Flex. But if the Saturn Vue 2 mode plug in has long range towing capability then it just might fit the bill. I can make a small platform that goes into the hitch receiver so that I can put a deer on during hunting season. Not a truck but might be the next best thing.
PS the towing requirement is for my boat not the deer.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:57 am
10 miles just doesn’t get it. I want the Volt. Would like towing capacity but get to and fro to work is the big thing now. Using no gas. TED
July 24th, 2008 at 5:54 am
GXT 51…… You correctly quote my comment in post #16, “The basic VUE has … up-scale interiors comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”, then you go on to say (sarcastically, it would seem), “Come on! I have to put up with the 70MPG, 150MPG, etc. claims, but I don’t have to swallow that bull.
”
I just noted a comment on the FastLane Blog that Lyle gives as a source for this topic by a chap in Germany named Gereon saying, “….recently they have shown a comparison on German TV. A big car-magazine over here completely disassembled both a Volks- wagen Golf (Rabbit) and an Opel Astra (which uses interior materials similar to the VUE). Both vehicles had 125000 miles on the odometer and had been driven by the editorial staff under similar conditions. Guess what… Whereas the Opel Astra’s interior nearly looked brand new, the materials of the Golf had shown heavy wear, e.g. the surface of the door handles was peeling off and the knob on top of the shifter (showing the gears) already was missing for a while….
I remember Bob Lutz saying not long after he started at GM that (as a guideline) GM should spend about $500 more on its interior materials, fit & finish that it had previously budgeted. I’ve been in a new Rolls Royce and the current VUE XR interior is really almost as impressive to me. Go sit in an ‘08 VUE XR at a Saturn dealership if you don’t believe it —and if you DO, thank Bob Lutz & Opel for the upgrade.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:16 am
60 The Grump…. You said, “Saturn needs to do a better job at explaining this “2-mode” thing, if they expect to sell these Vue hybrids. I still have no idea what “2-mode” is, and there’s no way I would buy one unless this technology was explained to me.”
You’ll find a very detailed description, including how it works, at……
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/06/detroit-2008-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid/
Note: The plug-in VUE will have a much larger Li-Ion battery, charging circuits, different control algorithms, etc, but GM has not yet released any real details, presumably for competitive reasons.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:50 am
COMIC RELIEF BREAK……
Here’s a photo of Bob Lutz kissing As-tra
(the newest Saturn model)…..
http://www.imsaturn.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2033334%3ABlogPost%3A44074
July 24th, 2008 at 7:04 am
A 2-mode hybrid is like a Prius or Escape. A 2 mode means the car can drive on electric power only during slow speeds. The other type of hybrid (”mild hybrid”) is where the electric power cannot move the car alone and is only used to assist the engine. (examples are the malibu hybrid). Basically mileage gains from mild hybrids are really small but 2-mode hybrids can see big mileage gains.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:36 am
I would also just like to commend nasaman…
I’ve had the pleasure of reading his VUE proposal — really good stuff and his posts always provide the highest quality information…
You are a tremendous asset to those of us who are interested in this revolution and are not as well educated…
(ooohhh nice…. some unsolicited self-deprecation…love it)
Thank you sir!
July 24th, 2008 at 7:39 am
I hate the fact that assembly of the Vue was moved from Tennessee to Mexico. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest…
July 24th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Did I miss the bally-hoo about the Vue’s development, or was it quiet enough for me to miss it? I know nasaman has been “involved” in very good ways, but I hope the Vue doesn’t end up a substitute for producing the Volt.
Are they pulling resources from the Volt development team?
The 2010 vehicles from many mfg’s may take a degree in engineering to decide on a purchase.
LET’S GET THE VOLT’S WHEELS ON THE ROAD!
Be well,
Tag
July 24th, 2008 at 7:47 am
>> A 2-mode hybrid is like a Prius or Escape. A 2 mode means the car can drive on electric power only during slow speeds.
FULL hybrids offer more than just electric-only drive.
The difference comes from having an additional electric motor and some type of power-split ability.
That allows for the creation & consumption of electricity at the same time, giving it a clear advantage over ASSIST hybrids (which is quite evident when climbing hills). Having that power available allows for the use of a more efficient engine (size and/or stroke) too, which translates to better MPG on the highway.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I sure hope they are going to have an All Wheel Drive option, some of us require that in our crossovers. My Highlander hybrid has it and I have been driving it for over 3 years now.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:14 am
This link may be interesting to some of you; “Planetary Gearsets” on howstuffworks.com :
http://science.howstuffworks.com/gear7.htm
A Prius uses one planetary gearset, with one gear coupled to the IC engine, another to an electric motor, and the third to the ground (with another electric motor on the output shaft). There is one set of planetary gear ratios that govern these three couplings.
A two-mode uses two or more planetary gearsets. Different combinations of connections can be made between the ground, IC engine, and two electric motors. Sets of clutches (similar to an automatic transmission) control these connections. A two-mode has two planetary gear ratios that can be used to maximize efficiency (compared to the Prius’ one). Additionally, when it is not efficient to run in electric-assisted mode, lockout can occur so the engine directly drives the wheels.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:26 am
I read the greencarcongress artilce and came away frustrated. No MPG mentioned and what the heck sense does a title of “Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (ATPZEV)”??? It’s been a few days since my last math class, but isn’t any part of zero, uh, ZERO?
Yes, I’m joshing, but I think that the acronyms are getting out of hand.
/sigh
Tag
PS: News just mentioned that congress is considering RAISING the gas tax, since people are driving less.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am
#49 john1701a
>> The CVT I was talking about was the Toyota’s. I have never been a fan of Metal belt transmisions.
<< Again! There’s no belt. Their PLANETARY type CVT uses power-carriers in a sun/ring/planet configuration.
You’re right the HSD does not have a “belt”, but another name for a chain could be “Metal belt”. I’m aware of your extensive knowledge and experience as a HSD owner/user; so I’m sure you have seen a similar photo (link below) or the actual HSD transmission. I like seeing your input on this forum because you help point out the “misinformation”. Just read more carefully next time.
http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/training/800/cutaway1.jpg
July 24th, 2008 at 8:35 am
63 nasaman,
Do I really have to point out to you that a VW Rabbit is not a BMW X5 & X3? Do I really have to point out that because a non-VUE car of unknown use had components that weared better when compared to a VW Rabbit of unkown use is not support for, “The basic VUE has … up-scale interiors comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”?
I know this place waxes more than a little poetic about the Volt, but let’s try to keep that kind of thing to unreleased products so that the claims can’t be so easily disproved.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Tag:
It is kind of like “Dry Lake” and “Limited Lifetime Warrany”………..
July 24th, 2008 at 8:38 am
ecotec power wrote:
“The reason they dumped the standard Honda motor for GM 4 cylinder is because it is a lot smoother running”
There are a lot of reasons why the change was made. But that certainly can’t be one of them outside of PR-Spin-Land. The Honda J30 has way less NVH than any gasping-and-groaning-for-redline GM 4-cyl ecotec. At least not when comparing the J30 and 4 cyl ecotec that I have had in my family.
Again, let’s take a lesson from GM and keep the misinformation to unreleased products so that the truth cannot be verified.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Jim I
“Tag:
It is kind of like “Dry Lake” and “Limited Lifetime Warrany”………..
Thanks Jim, that helps a lot (lol)
Tag
“Jumbo shrimp”?
July 24th, 2008 at 9:06 am
It’s all about the transmission in these 2-Modes. the transmissions that GM engineered for these are amazing. They’re currently in the 2-mode tahoe/yukon/escalades as well.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Good morning folks.
i don’t have time to read all the posts and if someone has pointed this out before, my appology’s.
The biggest danger for GM not to succeed is for oil to go down way below $100 p/b and the general public to go on with the past and start driving big gusslers again. And the probebility of oil doing just that is greater than not. If it happens I hope and pray that every one will realize that it is just another SUCKER HOLE! and it will just try to sabotage the importing nations to take their eyes of the ball.
On a different topic does anyone remember the VW bugs in the 70’s which had a small gasoline powered heater?, it used a tiny amount of gas and all you had to do was pull a switch and it gave you instant heat. It was a great feature for those of us who live in the cold climates. And usually you needed it for just a short time. Maybe some thing like it could be used in the Volt.
So no matter how cheap oil becomes, lets just cary on with the electrification of the automobile. All the best to you all.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:21 am
#49 john1701a
>> I think they are offering the 3.6L to compete with Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but really the Vue is way better since you can tow with it.
<< Poorly informed or spreading misconceptions? Highlander-Hybrid has always been able to tow.
Great catch of misinformation on towing. Per a review of the 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid…”Maximum towing capacity when properly equipped is 1,000 pounds. In comparison, the four-cylinder Escape can tow 1,500 pounds, and the V-6 model can handle 3,500 pounds.”
http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?revid=51355&makeid=14&modelid=8592&year=2008&revlogtype=20§ion=reviews
July 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I really like the idea of the PHEV Saturn Vue. Am wondering, maybe NASAMAN or others can answer, but is it highly probable that GM can increase the all-electric range on these? 10 miles range, although a wonderful increase from anything currently available, would look even better if increased to 15 or 20, or even more if possible. Does anyone know if this could be offered as a potential option? Say for instance, base Saturn Vue Plug-in package offers 10 miles all electric range, then for $2500 more, you can get Option package B with 15 miles all electric range, and Option C for another $1500 gets you 20 miles a.e.r.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Schmeltz@84,
I think Nasaman has been “encoraging” GM to do exactly that (offer extended AER as an option).
Be well,
Tag
July 24th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Off topic, but this could be the first sneak view of the production version of Volt to come out
.
http://jalopnik.com/376373/radio-reporter-sneaks-out-first-video-of-chevy-volt-electric-car
July 24th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Thank you, Nasaman, for sharing your expertise with the rest of us. I want a Volt in the worst way, but now the plug-in Vue is looking even better for my needs. I especially like that it will have the CTS-like 6 cylinder, having had a CTS a while back - loved that engine. To have that engine along with great gas mileage….wow!
The interior capacity of the Vue is particularly inviting as I am starting to teach yoga & would like to be able to haul my props around more easily. Sounds like just the thing.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:20 am
nasaman,
why offer a 20 mile vue when a “domestic” flextrim might be available?
the heart of the question is that the e-flex drive seems better suited for a longer range electic vehicle than a hybrid.
and that the flextrim might be similar to the vue in exterior specs.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Tagamet, regarding congress concisdering raising the gas tax…
… 1st would anyone really notice? As a percentage of the price of a gallon of gas, the Federal gas tax keeps going down (since it’s a fixed amount, not a percentage of the price).
When gas prices started going up several years ago I tried to get my State rep and the Governer to propose replacing the toll system in my State (NH) with an appropriate increase in the State level gas tax to make up for the “net” revenue lost. I believe at the time it would have been about 5 cents of less a gallon increase… not even noticable when the market price was going up and down by that much in a week.
The reason I proposed this is multi fold… it’s not really a tax increase in this case, just a shift from collecting it at the tolls to collecting it at the pump. In fact it would actually be a net decrease because the toll system has lots of financial overhead (building and maintaining toll boths, toll collectors, administrators and bean counters, etc)….
… in addition it would actually save gasoline…. no more slowing down or during busy periods sitting in traffic at a toll booth… which also means reduced emissions. Also some lives would be saved as I’m sure like every State we’ve had our share of fatal accidents at a toll booth. That also means less emissions that harm folks health and green house gases. It all adds up.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Too big and too heavy and too “un-aero” for me.
Come on Volt!
July 24th, 2008 at 10:44 am
#69 Tagamet
“Did I miss the bally-hoo about the Vue’s development, or was it quiet enough for me to miss it?”
We’ve seen mention of the Vue’s development. While plug-ins are a welcome devlopment, I think the Volt’s “series” hybrid configuration makes the Volt more interesting.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Jeff M,
I understand your reasoning, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Our economy is not at a point where “we” can afford another 10 cents on the gallon (IMHO).
Be well,
Tag
PS: I couldn’t find the spy pic of the production volt. The video I watched was a very old one. Someone help me out here, please.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Tag #83: I think “encouraging” is a bit of an understatement!!!
Vinayababu #84: It is an old video, but still fun to watch.
Jeff M #87: The only problem with your logic is that then everyone that buys gas in NH gets to pay for the toll road system, even if they never drive on it………. The idea of a toll system is that it is paid for by the people that use those roads.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Statik & Co.:
Did you happen to see the AP story on the Yahoo page re: Ford’s financial results? Ouch!
Interesting that they have prolonged production of the Ranger, which is suffering much less of a sales decline than the full sized pickups. Helloooo!!
Also interesting that they are going to bring in the European Transit small van. A smart move IMHO.
Businesses will cry out for an S-10/Ranger/Transit van sized e-flex or dual mode hybrid delivery vehicle after a few more gas credit card bills come in. Either that or I will have to bolt a Poulsen kit on my poor old S-10.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
GXT:
Take a lesson yourself my good sir or madame.
I have a BMW Z4 Convertible and the interior fit and trim is, indeed, garbage and doesn’t come close to my parent’s 2008 VUE.
I have to purchase special cleaning supplies just so the interior materials don’t fog out and bleed dye for crying out loud.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
#92 noel park
Yeah, I had a ‘boo’ at it. I wasn’t going to comment on it here because it is a bit of a stretch to the relevance of the Volt.
I will say the ‘one time writedowns’ are a big pet peeve of mine. Ford announced a “$8.03 billion worth of write-offs because of… blah blah blah”
They are also the first major auto company to officially buckle on the ‘turnaround in 2009 nonsense’ — “Ford said it does not expect a U.S. economic recovery to start until early 2010.”
Of interest they also said they are going to blow through 6 billion in capital expenditures to switchover plants and introduce some of their profitable (582 million) Euro line to NA. (Fiesta, EuroFocus, Transit Connect small van for sure and maybe the Kuga small X-over, C-Max van and Mondeo midsize).
They are also going to introduce a new Explorer, on a car platform for increased efficiency in 2010…go figure.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
“The 2-mode VUE is slated for production in 2010, and is a few months or more ahead of the Volt since the hybrid system is going into a vehicle that already exists”.
So does the so called volt exist… or is it a PR stunt??
How do they come up with these MPG numbers?? Standard vue gets 30 MPG give it a “free” 10 miles of electric power, and I get 40 MPG for the first 40 miles then 30 MPG after that.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
95 THOM:
It exists. GM can’t survive on Volt sales alone.
The Volt is more of a proof of concept vehicle. Should the design and drivetrain prove out at a consumer level it will be implemented fleetwide amongst the sedans and small cars. The 2 Mode Plug in VUE is the SUV proof of concept.
Pretty smart strategy really if it works out as they intend.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
93. Morgan:
I’m not sure why cleaning factors into “up-scale interiors comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”. Even flawless fit and finish does not equate to up-scale.
Just because GM uses plastics that don’t get as dirty where BMW would use cloth or leather doesn’t mean that the Vue’s interior is “up-scale” and ” comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”. If you need further support, check out the Honda element which has excellent fit and finish and can be pretty much hosed down… but no one (I hope!) would make the mistake of saying that it is “up-scale” and “comparable to those of BMW X5 & X3 CUVs”.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
97 GXT:
That is your opinion. However, I have over 5 years and my family over 25 of evaluating materials and fabrics for automotive applications to the tune of 200,000 vehicles on the road between 1990-2008, more than that if you go back to 1980. I know the processes these materials are made with or formed by.
GM’s fabrics and applications are better and more upscale. That is MY opinion.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Noel,
Have you seen this? 100 MPG in a pickup truck (supposedly)
“http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080723-Manufacturer-Plans-100-MPG-Hybrid-Pickup/”
You have to remove the quotes. I can’t seem to paste URLs here from some reason.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
#58 Jeff M:
“Also as someone mentioned above, the Cobasys NiMH chemistry is patent protected and that patent is currently owned by Chevron to whom GM sold it to (well technically it was Texaco shortly before it merged with Chevron).”
The Federal Guv’mint has to initiate a Manhattan Project type Program, and as part of that program needs to buy up all these patents on batteries that are held by the oil companies, and do it in the name of national security. In other words, we need to cut the oil companies out of the equation.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Rashiid Amul #99
Thanks for the article, the news just keeps getting better and better.
I would like to know the towing capacity, hopefully someday it’ll be divulged.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
73 >> No MPG mentioned and what the heck sense does a title of “Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (ATPZEV)”???
It is a step above the SULEV rating, extending the certification another 30,000 miles to 150,000 and the addition of a system to provide evaporative emissions.
GM rates poorly when it comes to hybrid emissions (some are even dirtier than their traditional counterpart). So, this news is quite an improvement to celebrate. Yeah!
As for the “partial”, it’s because FULL hybrids provide serial abilities at times. In other words, electric-only driving… aka: stealth mode.
.
74 >> another name for a chain could be “Metal belt”
The chain in that photo is the timing chain for the engine, which has nothing to do with the transmission.
There are two types of CVT. One is the “Cone & Belt“, which ASSIST hybrids and non-hybrids use. The other is “Planetary“, which is exclusive to FULL hybrids.
Oddly, the PSD (Power-Split-Device) which the “Planetary” CVT utilizes for the management of power through the engine and two motors is the same component used for gearing in a modern automatic transmission.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
#94 Statik:
I think it’s totally relevant. It’s just that much more reinforcement of where the market is going, and the desperate need for cars like the Volt.
#99 Rashiid Amul:
Thanks. Amazingly enough, I found it just fine. It has to happen. I just wish that they would start with something a little smaller. I think that a “100 mpg” Silverado is going to be subject to even more skepticism that the “70 mpg” Vue. Maybe for the first 100 miles, counting however many miles are on battery alone. After that, I don’t see how the laws of physics will allow it, given the present state of technology.
#100 Ryan P:
Sounds like a plan to me. Alas, I despair of ever finding the political leadership to make it happen.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
From Rashid: #99
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080723-Manufacturer-Plans-100-MPG-Hybrid-Pickup/
July 24th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
82 Schmeltz……. My apologies —broadband has been down in my area for the last 6hrs.
You said, “I really like the idea of the PHEV Saturn Vue. Am wondering, maybe NASAMAN or others can answer, but is it highly probable that GM can increase the all-electric range on these? 10 miles range, although a wonderful increase from anything currently available, would look even better if increased to 15 or 20, or even more if possible…..”
From a purely technical/design standpoint, the answer is “Yes, absolutely!” The question is when or if they’ll decide to do so. As I said in post #30 above, I have been actively lobbying GM at decision-making levels about using the Volt-technology battery in an optional version of the plug-in VUE that could achieve 35 miles EV-only range at full highway speeds.
Anyone who wants to see a 2-pg dissertation I prepared & gave to Bob Lutz (and several others in GM management) are welcome to email me directly for it. Just send a blank email to nasaman@earthlink.net , Subject: “VUE Proposal”.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
#102 john1701a
Is this misinformation?
See pages 17-18 of the following PDF: Evaluation of 2004 Prius Hybrid Electric Drive System by Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/121813.pdf
Based on the drawings, it appears the chain connects one side of the electrical motor rotor shaft to the Power Split Device (PSD). The other side of the electrical motor rotor shaft is connected to a set of reduction gears with a “DRIVE CHAIN” for the transmission of energy to the wheels .
Other links
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_PSD_02.gif
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
http://www.artsautomotive.com/PriusMG2.htm (2001 Prius drivetrain with drive chain)
July 24th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
OOPS…john1701a #106 should read.
Based on the drawing, it appears one side of the electrical motor rotor shaft is connected to the Power Split Device (PSD). The other side of the electrical motor rotor shaft is connected to a set of reduction gears with a “DRIVE CHAIN” for the transmission of energy to the wheels .
July 24th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
A plug-in Vue would be great. I will certainly look at one, but still would prefer a Volt. The two-mode 2009 Vue would be a good choice for a “fill-in the gap” vehicle. Let’s wait until it hits the showrooms.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
>> I have never been a fan of Metal belt transmisions. I like what GM has done with 4 fixed gears and electric motors.
That comment still doesn’t make any sense, even if it was the reduction chain that you meant all along… since GM gearing is in addition to the standard hybrid setup and it doesn’t take Toyota’s hybrid two-speed design into account.
That’s fine. Misunderstandings (from not including enough detail) happen. As long as it doesn’t happen again, like the reoccuring “30 MPH” incorrect information.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Ryan P. # 100 says
The Federal Guv’mint has to initiate a Manhattan Project type Program, and as part of that program needs to buy up all these patents on batteries that are held by the oil companies, and do it in the name of national security. In other words, we need to cut the oil companies out of the equation.
————
Agreed. 100 percent. This is absolutely necessary.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
#109 john1701a
#42 Mark H
>> That comment still doesn’t make any sense, even if it was the reduction chain that you meant all along
Great!…sounds like we are on the same page now.
Look at the photo again. It only shows the “reduction chain” as you call it since the cutaway is only of the hybrid transmission gear box. I would guess the timing chain is on the opposite side of the ICE (not on the same side as the transmission gear box) like most other ICEs.
http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/training/800/cutaway1.jpg
>> I have never been a fan of Metal belt transmisions. I like what GM has done with 4 fixed gears and electric motors.
I’ve researched the Prius heavily…and it appears the “reduction chain” is a non-issue. Prius have been on the US roads since around 2000 and the Prius owners are a very vocal group. Several cars have passed 100K miles…and some of the vehicles have reached > 200K miles with no “reduction chain” problems. I’ll have to agree with John. I do not understand…”I like what GM has done with 4 fixed gears and electric motors.” Maybe you have more info about one of GM’s hybrid designs (BAS, 2 mode, etc.). If so, please share any links.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Rashid and Ryan P
Although the goal sounds good, the means does not justify the end. Otherwise we’d just do as Hugo did and Nationalize the oil companies. It’s similar to murderers “deserving” a fair trial. It’s distasteful, but it’s based in the Constitution.
JMO,
Tag
July 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
#110 Rashiid Amul
Hmmm…recently, I’ve seen some “feel good” TV commercials with the theme that oil companies working toward diversifying the energy sources of the automobile.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
It was the generalization that irked me, since neither Camry-Hybrid nor Highlander-Hybrid have a chain for reduction. Both use a second PSD instead, hence the two-speed design.
Learning to avoid being vague here will help Volt enthusiasts when confronted offline. Those brief encounters are where specifics are vital. Correct understanding will win people over.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
86 wrigley….. You asked, “nasaman, why offer a 20 mile vue when a “domestic” flextrim might be available? …..
By “flextrim” I think you mean E-FLEX or E-REV. In fact, the 2-pg dissertation I handed to Bob Lutz (and sent several others in GM management) considers the alternative of either 1) up-sizing the plug-in VUE’s battery to 16 kWh and adjusting the drive train’s control algorithms to allow the car to achieve full highway speeds for up to ~35 miles on battery alone, OR 2) simply retrofitting a Volt-like E-REV drive train into the VUE instead.
For all the details, just send me a blank email at nasaman@earthlink.net, subject: “VUE Proposal”.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Considering the Nickel Metal Hydride situation, according to Wiki the Cobysys patents expire in 2015,
However Cobysys will produce large battteries for large volumes.It should be just a matter of setting up an agency to place the order.
But they may leak and need to be recalled.Isnt that what happened to the GM hybrids?
July 24th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
112 Tagamet
We don’t need to buy up any patents and we don’t need to break the constitution. We only need to pass legislation that prohibits the use of patents in a manner that INHIBITS innovation. Patents are supposed to allow the inventor to profit from and exploit their invention. Once Chevron got hold of Stanford Ovshinsky’s NiMH
patents, they ordered the CESSATION of their use simply to protect their oil revenues. Not a conspiracy theory. It is historical fact. Simply make it illegal for a patent holder to prevent use of their invention. If a patent holder refuses to allow an idea to be used either by selling the product or by reasonable licensing and royalties, then that patent should be remanded to the public domain.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
#103 noel park
“#94 Statik: I think it’s totally relevant. It’s just that much more reinforcement of where the market is going, and the desperate need for cars like the Volt.”
I think it may be too, however I am just trying to err on the side of caution as it has been pointed out to me that I am perhaps sometimes a bit of a thread ‘redirector,” lol
/keeping a low profile
July 24th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
116 bruce g, 117 Randal Sparks…..
As I noted earlier in this thread, the plug-in VUE will use Li-Ion (not NiMH) batteries from Johnson Controls/Saft/A123, so these concerns hopefully won’t arise for the plug-in VUE.
Side note: ExxonMobil has been saturation advertising their new separator material for Li-Ion batteries on TV for 2-3 weeks now —it makes me shiver to think they might try the same stunt as Chevron, so I’m hoping A123 and LG Chem are NOT using their separator film. And I agree we need to lobby Congress to pass legislation that prohibits the use of patents in a manner that INHIBITS innovation.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
The cost of electricity will rise to meet market value. That value will be such that you pay the same amount per mile as you do with gasoline. This is what happened to the cost of corn remember?
The good thing will be it may take some of the pressure off of gas prices and the collapsing dollar due to shipping 700 billion per year out of the country for petroleum.
Thus this is great news. Let’s drill for oil too.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
#12 Bruce: Some RAV4-EV owners can eke 120 miles out of a charge just like some Prius drivers can get 110 mpg. Real world numbers from normal drivers are much lower. SoCal Edison ran a fleet of 300 RAV4-Evs for several years and measured 75-100 mile range in numerous tests.
Forget this garbage about Chevron supressing patents. These patents have been licensed to a dozen manufacturers. These licensees are allowed to sell NIMH EV batteries outside North America and a couple (including Toyota supplier PEVE) are also allowed to sell them within North America. There are also suppliers with non-infringing designs. So why no NIMH EVs? Because NIMH costs more and delivers less power and energy than lithium. Note that Tesla lithium pack is similar in size and cost to EV-1 NIMH but delivers twice the power and range. NIMH isn’t competitive for EVs (or cell phones, laptops, etc).
RAV4-EV pack cost around $20k. GM price target is about $6k for Volt and $2k for PHEV Vue.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
116 bruce g, 117 Randal Sparks, Nasaman @119
Nasaman said:
And I agree we need to lobby Congress to pass legislation that prohibits the use of patents in a manner that INHIBITS innovation.”
Sorry, but this is totally convuluted. Patents are granted to control something that is, by definition, INNOVATIVE. If it wasn’t innovative, it wouldn’t get a patent. So who exactly decides what’s being prohibitve as opposed to say, moral. If I patented the process of cloning babies, and it worked 10% of the time (of course the defective ones could be disgarded) your lobbying for a law that would MAKE me use this technology? Most of congress can’t find their own butt with both hands, but you want them to develop a law that would define the prohibitive use of “innovative technology” patents? You have a great deal more faith in legislation that would guide the use of technology. than I do.
In hindsight, the “inhibition” of NiMH batteries, may have LEAD to lithium ion technology. Patents expire in 20 years, so if something even better hasn’t been developed in that period, the inhibited innovation would become public property without Washingtoipn D.C.’s involvement.
Be well (and careful)
Tag
July 25th, 2008 at 2:30 am
#121 doggydogworld
“RAV4-EV pack cost around $20k. GM price target is about $6k for Volt and $2k for PHEV Vue”
It is interesting the RAV 4 spares are around $20000. Is that the replacement parts cost?
I dont think GM are factoring the Volt battery in at $6000, not if they claim the break even for the car is $40,000.
$10000-15,000 maybe?
I wonder if the free market is pitching Lithium Ion at the same price as Nickel Metal Hydride? If there are lower production costs with Lithium batteries they may not be passed on down the chain.
mutter…mutter…mutter…..
July 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am
122 Tagamet…..
Hey, Tag, I don’t want to get all tangled up in legal arguments here, ’cause although I hold several patents, I’m not a patent lawyer (or a lawyer of any kind). All I’m trying to point out is that if a company owns a patent but won’t sell or license its use to other companies, it seems patently unfair. (sorry, HeHe)
There are many examples. One famous case is Sony’s BetaMax, which to this day is far superior to other analog video recording technologies. Since Sony would’nt license it to anyone else, they in effect became a world-wide monopoly in broadcast and studio video equipment and could charge any customer anything they wanted (or, in theory, could simply refuse to sell betamax cameras or recorders to anyone of their choosing).
So perhaps what I should have suggested, instead of “….we need to lobby Congress to pass legislation that prohibits the use of patents in a manner that INHIBITS innovation”, is that we need to insist that the FTC prosecute companies holding patents that they refuse to license the use of to others in a way that constitutes unfair or discriminatory business practice(s).
July 25th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Nasaman, did you sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, because you sure sound like a Patent Lawyer (g).
Prosecuting companies who “refuse to license the use of to others in a way that constitutes unfair or discriminatory business practice(s).” still implies that A) those terms can BE defined and B) that gov’t involvement in business is a good idea. So if your law was passed, GM would be prosecuted if they don’t come out with the Volt?
Be wll,
Tag
July 25th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Why isn’t “edit” working?
“Be WELL
Tag
July 25th, 2008 at 11:01 am
#123 Bruce
$20k RAV4-EV pack is 27.4 kWh at $700/kWh. Bulk NIMH cells are more like $600 but automotive grade and pack construction add something. Note that Prius high-power NIMH costs more like $1200/kWh (down from $1500 not long ago).
GM will certainly pay more than $6k for early Volt packs. Advanced lithium chemistry vendors (A123, Altair, etc.) claim they will match and eventually beat consumer li-ion in mass production (approx $400/kWh). A123, for example, does not use expensive cobalt. Current prices are much higher, though, partly because existing markets (i.e. RC hobbyists) will pay for superior performance. I guess GM will pay $10k for early Volt packs. $6k is 2013 pricing when volume kicks in. I also think they’ll shrink the pack some as they get operational data. Toyota did the same thing with Prius pack.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:09 am
>>>”Why isn’t “edit” working?” ….Maybe Lyle decided to activate software he has to disallow anyone with your IP address from using the edit function ’cause he likes making life hard for posters with a medical background, especially shrinks?
No, GM wouldn’t be prosecuted if they don’t come out with the Volt (but a few thousand on the gm-volt.com wait list, especially any who had made deposits, might decide to file a class-action suit against them).
How about this…. Suppose GM had patents on the range extender aspect of the E-REV design that were so broad that they could essentially prevent any other car company from using a range extender of any kind, and they kept renewing and updating those patents when the original patents expired such that only GM could build EVs that employed any type of range extender. (Unlikely, I’ll admit, but let’s just suppose they were able to get away with it.)
Result? …..A world-wide monopoly like Microsoft is in its field. Believe me, we don’t need a Microsoft in the automotive industry!
July 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Nasaman,
A world-wide monoploly like Prius has on their synergy drive system? They only license the technology when they have a better generation ready to release, so everyone else is one step behind. I think that that’s good business, not breaking a law. GM could do the same with it’s revolutionary system. Sorry, but gov’t intervention in this litigious age holds the potential for the movie “Who killed the Volt”. shudder. Wouldn’t the crushing of “that other EV” have meant a lawsuit potemtially disasterous lawsuit against GM?
I want the govt to protect me, build infrastructure, and maybe get us back to the moon (imagine what you could have done with TODAYS computers), but that’s about it.
Be well,
Tag
July 25th, 2008 at 11:26 am
PS You may be right about Lyle’s “messin with the shrink” (lol)
July 25th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I concede, Tag! The whole problem is the world has too many lawyers, and they make us so crazy we HAVE to have you shrinks (and neurologists) to treat myriads of mental disorders!
July 25th, 2008 at 11:41 am
I would buy at VUE plugin IF and ONLY IF it is 4WD/AWD capable otherwise there is just no point for me and I’ll wait for the next manufacturer to crack that nut. I need a > compact sized vehicle capable of occasional off-road use and winter time snow use.
I expect that all electric in-line hybrids with independent motors for each wheel will be the real winning solution for AWD plug-ins. Volvo and others are working on these.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Nasaman re lawyers
On that we TOTALLY agree!
Be well my friend,
Tag
July 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
nasaman: You gave up too soon!!!
Tag: The government is also supposed to deliver the mail…..
I was going to be quiet about this one, but I just have to chime in. It is in my nature as a busi