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	<title>Comments on: Mass Fuel Cell Adoption Would Cost $200 Billion and Al Gore Challenges US to Go 100% Fossil Fuel Free in 10 Years</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/</link>
	<description>Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:53:37 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Michael Robinson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-103150</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-103150</guid>
		<description>Platinum accounts for 114 billion of the 200 billion estimated cost
or 57% according to the article.

Hmm, platinum can be easily replaced by nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes.  Carbon is common, unlike platinum, so it
should be significantly cheaper.  Lets say that it would cost 
$125 billion, that is significantly less.  

The infrastructure cost estimate doesn&#039;t take into account the use 
of hydrogen containing compounds to transport hydrogen safely
and efficiently, so that&#039;s a second reason why this $200 billion 
estimate is just plain wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Platinum accounts for 114 billion of the 200 billion estimated cost<br />
or 57% according to the article.</p>
<p>Hmm, platinum can be easily replaced by nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes.  Carbon is common, unlike platinum, so it<br />
should be significantly cheaper.  Lets say that it would cost<br />
$125 billion, that is significantly less.  </p>
<p>The infrastructure cost estimate doesn&#8217;t take into account the use<br />
of hydrogen containing compounds to transport hydrogen safely<br />
and efficiently, so that&#8217;s a second reason why this $200 billion<br />
estimate is just plain wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Robinson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-97792</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-97792</guid>
		<description>Please EV zealots, get a clue.  The technology necessary to 
produce fuel cell cars and establish an infrastructure to support 
them is far more mature than the technology behind EV&#039;s. 

 A $16k battery is not practical compared to the cost of a 
hydrogen fuel cell stack using carbon nanotube electrodes.  Hydrogen can be distributed as magnesium hydride slurry produced using renewable energy or nuclear energy.  
Hydrogen can be produced using bacteria instead of 
electrolysis and there are other methods of getting 
hydrogen as well such as cooking horse manure to 
release methane gas which can be reformed.  If the 
auto manufacturers choose to store hydrogen on
vehicles as magnesium hydride slurry, the current fueling infrastructure for diesel and gasoline will adapt easily and
cheaply.

Methods to safely handle hydrogen are well known.

The technology to lower the cost of fuel cells enough to make
mass production of them profitable exists now.  It is inappropriate
to use the cost of platinum to predict the cost of fuel cells.  In
prototype vehicles, of course you use platinum.  In mass 
production, you use carbon nanotubes which perform better
than platinum and cost a lot less.

Hydrogen is the only zero emission option that can propel a
vehicle for 300-500 miles affordably.

2 tons of batteries to get that kind of range is not acceptable.

Battery technology has majorly improved, but I think battery
technology will lose the race to fuel cell technology.

There is a greater danger of explosion from a 16kW Lithium
ION battery than a 10k PSI hydrogen tank.

The $200 billion dollar figure is simply wrong.  It is too high.
Not only that, $200 billion would be a small price to pay to
end the nation&#039;s dependence on foreign oil now.

There are no technological barriers left to prevent mass production
of fuel cell cars, only political ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please EV zealots, get a clue.  The technology necessary to<br />
produce fuel cell cars and establish an infrastructure to support<br />
them is far more mature than the technology behind EV&#8217;s. </p>
<p> A $16k battery is not practical compared to the cost of a<br />
hydrogen fuel cell stack using carbon nanotube electrodes.  Hydrogen can be distributed as magnesium hydride slurry produced using renewable energy or nuclear energy.<br />
Hydrogen can be produced using bacteria instead of<br />
electrolysis and there are other methods of getting<br />
hydrogen as well such as cooking horse manure to<br />
release methane gas which can be reformed.  If the<br />
auto manufacturers choose to store hydrogen on<br />
vehicles as magnesium hydride slurry, the current fueling infrastructure for diesel and gasoline will adapt easily and<br />
cheaply.</p>
<p>Methods to safely handle hydrogen are well known.</p>
<p>The technology to lower the cost of fuel cells enough to make<br />
mass production of them profitable exists now.  It is inappropriate<br />
to use the cost of platinum to predict the cost of fuel cells.  In<br />
prototype vehicles, of course you use platinum.  In mass<br />
production, you use carbon nanotubes which perform better<br />
than platinum and cost a lot less.</p>
<p>Hydrogen is the only zero emission option that can propel a<br />
vehicle for 300-500 miles affordably.</p>
<p>2 tons of batteries to get that kind of range is not acceptable.</p>
<p>Battery technology has majorly improved, but I think battery<br />
technology will lose the race to fuel cell technology.</p>
<p>There is a greater danger of explosion from a 16kW Lithium<br />
ION battery than a 10k PSI hydrogen tank.</p>
<p>The $200 billion dollar figure is simply wrong.  It is too high.<br />
Not only that, $200 billion would be a small price to pay to<br />
end the nation&#8217;s dependence on foreign oil now.</p>
<p>There are no technological barriers left to prevent mass production<br />
of fuel cell cars, only political ones.</p>
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		<title>By: stopcrazypp</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54607</link>
		<dc:creator>stopcrazypp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54607</guid>
		<description>@VancouverJon #22

10 minute quick charge for 100 mile range, in Oahu, a couple of YEARS ago with lead acid batteries.
http://www.greencar.com/features/features39/

10 minute quick charge for ~200 mile range (they claim 250 but I don&#039;t think they will get that judging by Tesla&#039;s results) using altairnano batteries:
http://www.gizmag.com/britains-lightning-gt-electric-supercar/9059/

More details (warning pdf download):
http://www.epa.gov/oppt/nano/p2docs/casestudy3_house.pdf

The charger/draw seems to be a bigger problem than the batteries just by virtue of you drawing so much energy in such a short amount of time putting a huge load on whatever electricity source you are using.

So there are batteries capable of quick charge. You said you went to an advanced battery workshop; it probably was talking about more conventional li-ions. The conventional li-ions/nimhs actually can&#039;t charge as fast as lead acids b/c of thermal reasons; ie. the Tesla Roadster&#039;s batteries can charge to full in 1 hour for 220 miles as an absolute max, which is slower than the lead acids in the previous example. There&#039;s also the consideration that a lot of these batteries can charge to 80% a lot quicker than to 100%; ie. the iMIEV usually taking 7 hours to charge with 200V but can charge 80% in 30 minutes w/ a quick charger even given the more normal li-ion batteries (different from the Nano Titanate batteries).

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-autobloggreen-drives-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-w-vid/

I can&#039;t say much on low-platinum fuel cells since I haven&#039;t really looked into it, but I don&#039;t imagine they are close at all judging from your comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@VancouverJon #22</p>
<p>10 minute quick charge for 100 mile range, in Oahu, a couple of YEARS ago with lead acid batteries.<br />
<a href="http://www.greencar.com/features/features39/" rel="nofollow">http://www.greencar.com/features/features39/</a></p>
<p>10 minute quick charge for ~200 mile range (they claim 250 but I don&#8217;t think they will get that judging by Tesla&#8217;s results) using altairnano batteries:<br />
<a href="http://www.gizmag.com/britains-lightning-gt-electric-supercar/9059/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gizmag.com/britains-lightning-gt-electric-supercar/9059/</a></p>
<p>More details (warning pdf download):<br />
<a href="http://www.epa.gov/oppt/nano/p2docs/casestudy3_house.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.epa.gov/oppt/nano/p2docs/casestudy3_house.pdf</a></p>
<p>The charger/draw seems to be a bigger problem than the batteries just by virtue of you drawing so much energy in such a short amount of time putting a huge load on whatever electricity source you are using.</p>
<p>So there are batteries capable of quick charge. You said you went to an advanced battery workshop; it probably was talking about more conventional li-ions. The conventional li-ions/nimhs actually can&#8217;t charge as fast as lead acids b/c of thermal reasons; ie. the Tesla Roadster&#8217;s batteries can charge to full in 1 hour for 220 miles as an absolute max, which is slower than the lead acids in the previous example. There&#8217;s also the consideration that a lot of these batteries can charge to 80% a lot quicker than to 100%; ie. the iMIEV usually taking 7 hours to charge with 200V but can charge 80% in 30 minutes w/ a quick charger even given the more normal li-ion batteries (different from the Nano Titanate batteries).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-autobloggreen-drives-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-w-vid/" rel="nofollow">http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-autobloggreen-drives-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-w-vid/</a></p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say much on low-platinum fuel cells since I haven&#8217;t really looked into it, but I don&#8217;t imagine they are close at all judging from your comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Oscar Will</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54531</link>
		<dc:creator>Oscar Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54531</guid>
		<description>Fossil fuel free?? In how long??? By when??

 I want to know what will fuel a 747 or an Air Force bomber if not some sort of fossil fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fossil fuel free?? In how long??? By when??</p>
<p> I want to know what will fuel a 747 or an Air Force bomber if not some sort of fossil fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54357</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54357</guid>
		<description>Yes Greg, according to Rush Limbaugh. Gore&#039;s house uses solar panels, his heating and cooling are through a ground source heat pump using electrical energy produced by the solar panels. I would be willing to bet that his detractors are oil company shills! We sent a man to the moon in less than 10 years, we built the interstate highway system in less than 15 years, we built the bomb in less than 4 years......can anyone dare question whether we can get off of fossil fuels in 10 years!!!! The oil companies would love to make you believe that we can&#039;t!!!  and besides, we don&#039;t have any choice!!! The only question is whether it will be a smooth transition or whether we will have to go through a giant depression that would make the 1929 depression seem like good times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Greg, according to Rush Limbaugh. Gore&#8217;s house uses solar panels, his heating and cooling are through a ground source heat pump using electrical energy produced by the solar panels. I would be willing to bet that his detractors are oil company shills! We sent a man to the moon in less than 10 years, we built the interstate highway system in less than 15 years, we built the bomb in less than 4 years&#8230;&#8230;can anyone dare question whether we can get off of fossil fuels in 10 years!!!! The oil companies would love to make you believe that we can&#8217;t!!!  and besides, we don&#8217;t have any choice!!! The only question is whether it will be a smooth transition or whether we will have to go through a giant depression that would make the 1929 depression seem like good times.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54303</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54303</guid>
		<description>Russ, The problem is Gore is a phony. He uses much more energy than most people. How do you make an airplane not use fossil fuels?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ, The problem is Gore is a phony. He uses much more energy than most people. How do you make an airplane not use fossil fuels?</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54104</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54104</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t get all this negativity about Al Gore. Is everyone brain dead?  Gore has done more than anyone else on the earth in promoting clean alternate energy. If Gore had been president, and clearly the majority of the American public wanted him to be, we would have a clean renewable energy program in place. Who out there thinks that being oil free and independant is a bad thing? Jesse Ventura had it right when he said the worst thing in this country is the two party system. I just talked to a staunch conservative Republican who told me that it was the liberal democrats who were holding up the development of alternate energy!!! Daaaa! Give me a break and wake up America!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t get all this negativity about Al Gore. Is everyone brain dead?  Gore has done more than anyone else on the earth in promoting clean alternate energy. If Gore had been president, and clearly the majority of the American public wanted him to be, we would have a clean renewable energy program in place. Who out there thinks that being oil free and independant is a bad thing? Jesse Ventura had it right when he said the worst thing in this country is the two party system. I just talked to a staunch conservative Republican who told me that it was the liberal democrats who were holding up the development of alternate energy!!! Daaaa! Give me a break and wake up America!</p>
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		<title>By: ThombDbhomb</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54052</link>
		<dc:creator>ThombDbhomb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54052</guid>
		<description>#118 Jackson 
Forget about the politicians and the politics for a minute. Do you oppose the goal of producing 100 percent of our electricity from renewable energy and truly clean carbon-free sources? What I&#039;m talking about is the idea. You seem to want to keep things political. Do you oppose the 10-year timeframe?  People thought we couldn&#039;t get to the moon in ten years. Where there is a will, there is a way. Otherwise, we could fight and get nowhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#118 Jackson<br />
Forget about the politicians and the politics for a minute. Do you oppose the goal of producing 100 percent of our electricity from renewable energy and truly clean carbon-free sources? What I&#8217;m talking about is the idea. You seem to want to keep things political. Do you oppose the 10-year timeframe?  People thought we couldn&#8217;t get to the moon in ten years. Where there is a will, there is a way. Otherwise, we could fight and get nowhere.</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-54020</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-54020</guid>
		<description>200 billion for the good of mankind or 3 trillion to kill mankind. only a retard can make that choice. Is Canada really the largest importer of oil to america?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>200 billion for the good of mankind or 3 trillion to kill mankind. only a retard can make that choice. Is Canada really the largest importer of oil to america?</p>
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		<title>By: the petrol prophet</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/17/mass-fuel-cell-adoption-would-cost-200-billion-and-al-gore-challenges-us-to-go-100-fossil-fuel-free-in-10-years/#comment-53919</link>
		<dc:creator>the petrol prophet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1167#comment-53919</guid>
		<description>Some of you are very naive about our government&#039;s motives and dependence on mideast oil. It&#039;s all about economics and strategic &quot;control&quot; of the oil.  This is done indirectly by buying oil from the oil rich mideast nations. The oil-based financial relationship with these nations creates political and economic influence in the region, which translates to power.  The underlying objective is to exert as much power in the region as possible, as a tool for maintaining strategic control.  Obviously, if the u.s. abandoned the oil-based relationship with the OPEC nations, other oil consuming nations would move in and attempt to control those financial relationships.  Any nation or group of nations that has significant control of the global oil supply could literally hold the rest of the world hostage by limiting or denying exports to the big oil consuming nations.  This is the connection to national security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of you are very naive about our government&#8217;s motives and dependence on mideast oil. It&#8217;s all about economics and strategic &#8220;control&#8221; of the oil.  This is done indirectly by buying oil from the oil rich mideast nations. The oil-based financial relationship with these nations creates political and economic influence in the region, which translates to power.  The underlying objective is to exert as much power in the region as possible, as a tool for maintaining strategic control.  Obviously, if the u.s. abandoned the oil-based relationship with the OPEC nations, other oil consuming nations would move in and attempt to control those financial relationships.  Any nation or group of nations that has significant control of the global oil supply could literally hold the rest of the world hostage by limiting or denying exports to the big oil consuming nations.  This is the connection to national security.</p>
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