Bob Lutz: No Chevy Beat But Maybe 500,000 Chevy Volts
After today’s financial press conference, GM vice-chair Bob Lutz gave some interviews.
Previously we had heard rumors the Chevy Beat might come to the U.S. market. It seemed an ideal car for the current market due to it’s small size and high fuel efficiency. But unfortunately Mr. Lutz told reporters that the car would not be coming here soon. The reason, per Mr. Lutz, was that the car was never designed for the U.S. and thus doesn’t meet crash and safety test requirements. To bring it up to those standards would take at least 2 years and cost too much money. As a consolation, he said the next generation Beat could make it to this country.
He also poured a little water over the Chevy Cruze, the new subcompact sedan with the potential for more than 40 mpg. Lutz said it wouldn’t replace the Cobalt anytime soon, as the latter car is "no where near the end of its life-cycle" and is "finally coming into its own."
He did however up the ante once again on how many Volts might be built. He told the Detroit News that GM would now be focusing all its efforts on high volume vehicles, saying "this is not the time for niche vehicles,” and “we can’t afford to hit singles and bunts. We need triples and home runs.”
He explained that any Volt volume productions were "iffy" because of the car’s reliance on new technologies and suppliers.
He did say however “we’re in uncharted territory. If global demand is there, my personal guess is that vehicles like the Volt could be 500,000 a year in a few years time.”
Source (Autoblog ) and (Detroit Free Press )
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July 15th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Money has left the table for conversion of Beat.
To be fair…and as I mentioned earlier. The Cruze is a euro-first as there platform is already up and almost running.
The Lordstown plant is no where near even starting to convert over. When it does it will run a concurrently with the Cobalt/Pursuit.
Internally, changeover in Lordstown was to begin in early 2010..with production out the door at the earliest in June 2010. However, this new ‘thriftier’ GM may have decided to push it back further than that–but that would be pure conjecture on my part.
(I’ll try to widdle some information out of some people on it and post, but I have a feeling even people that should know things like that…don’t at this moment).
/good topic
July 15th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
“If global demand is there”
The demand is there… only question is, is the price going to be?
July 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Focus all attention on the Volt and get it out ASAP and you will be saved and quite possible save America. Go GM! Go Volt!
July 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Bring back GM’s Geo Metro, 1L 3-cyclinder engine that got over 50 miles per gallon highway about 20 years ago!
July 15th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Look at it this way: regardless of where the Beat sells,it will improve
reduction of gasoline demand, which helps everyone. And in terms of gas reduction capability, one single Volt can do the work of at least 7 Beats, and allow for some workplace recharging that we know will occur, and perhaps that would be 10 Beats per single Volt.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
#2
You’re correct. The demand IS there, but ONLY if the price is reasonable. If the price is too high, the demand vanishes. People want electric cars, but are not willing to pay over a certain amount for it.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
The Green Saboteur Luddite Anti Prayer
Oh my holy entropic energy god please listen to my prayers…..
Atomic energy is great. We need to drill on the coasts and in ANWR for oil We need to keep researching all the alternative energy possibilities. We need the Chevy Volt. Please help T. Boone Pickens and others like him develop his plan. Please burn the ecotards and use the waste heat to generate electricity! Banish all the green saboteur luddites to islands where only liberals live. Let them sell expensive lattes and ride unicorns to work for I do not want to live in a cave. Do not force me to do research about cow farts. Let them first live as they advocate others do before legislating a carbon free dark age. Do not let their false god bend me to my knees for their religion of global warming. Do not let their strange neurotic germanic environmental worship take over my government for the germans also have preoccupation with feces and I am not anal retentive.
Amen and lord of Energy deliver us from The Green Saboteur Luddites who hum and chant and look like Anthony Zorba in the Omega Man wearing the monk hoodie.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
This quote sounded good until I read it again, and realized its not what I originally understood:
.”..my personal guess is that vehicles LIKE the Volt could be 500,000 a year in a few years time.”
The word LIKE, says that he can see 500,000 electric cars in a few years, and not specifically the Volt.
Oh GM, I hope you know what your doing!
July 15th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Mark, the question for most folks is not whether they are willing or not… but can they AFFORD it…. if the Volt is $40k that’s a lot of money to put up… even if they up paying for almsot no gas (just for the electricity to recharge it daily).
Out of curiosity, if any one knows… what safety standards does the Beat not meet for the USA, but is ok to sell in Europe? Crush zones? Air bags? And does it really take 2 years to tweak and retool?
July 15th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Fred X. Ditto
July 15th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I’m feeling very optimistic about the Volt. Five hundred thousand per year should meet the demand for lower price with a big fuel savings. A million a year would be even better, did someone say home run ? Go GM, we love what your doing.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
“GM has said it plans to build about 10,000 Volts in 2011, the car’s first full year of production. Any projection for the Volt is iffy, because the vehicle relies on new technologies and suppliers, he said. We’re in uncharted territory. If global demand is there, my personal guess is that vehicles like the Volt could be 500,000 a year in a few years time.”
What he means by”a few years time”, he menas “a few years time AFTER we get serious and roll out a few thousand in 2012.
There is no way GM puts out 500,000 Volts (or Volt cousins) in a few years. End of story. 100 percent. guaranteed.
There is zero infrastructure right now behind the Volt…nothing. Vaporware. They will be lucky to get one pushed out in 2010, and lucky to get a few thousand in 2011.
Why would anyone believe GM could push out 500K of these in a reasonable amount of time.
It took Toyota a decade to get to a million Prius’ on the market from the first day they first put it on the showroom. They have 3 plants pumping as hard as they possibly can and they can’t hit 500K this year. And they have full committment behind their project…and gov’t backing to get them started. As they say, “It’s the battery, stupid”
GM is converting one line, let me repeat…ONE LINE to the Volt. Max capacity of a normal car would probably be 200K. Something as tricky as the Volt…coupled with the battery supply issues and we are talking 75K/yr max production…and that’s being generous.
There is no plans to increase capacity in North America at any point. As soon as they can, Volt 2.0 and it’s cousins will all be moved to Europe. That is expected to happen in 2013…then add on the ‘ramp up’ time and you are looking at 2015 at least before GM can pump out any kind of numbers to be a ‘triple’ or ‘homerun’
I’m afraid this is a classic, “pay no attention to what the man behind the curtain is doing” Bad news coupled with optimistic words.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
When it comes to the Beat I wish it was coming to NA right away. I would consider one but I’m probably don’t represent the average consumer. The concerning thing about this news is that GM supposedly has been working on turning over a new leaf and designing and producing cars for the global market. Under such circumstances it is difficult to understand why GM would say it would take significant time and money to bring the Beat to NA. I don’t really buy that it would take two years for it to become compliant or that they might wait until the next generation. I think it’s more GM philosophy to continue to try to get people into more profitable CUV’s and SUV’s. I think GM is wanting to stay away from bringing vehicles like the Beat to NA because they are still under the impression that demand would be or is weak. Part of the problem is that demand is weak for smaller GM vehicles like the Aveo but that’s because the product is weak. GM is comfortable building these in Korea (I think) and selling in Europe because the Euro market has a strong small car segment so there is little risk. It’s a slightly more risky venture in the NA market and it’s a shame that GM isn’t even trying to break the market, in my opinion.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Qualification testing is a long and tedious activity. Once qualified, tooling needs to be reworked, assembly procedures documented, assemblers trained, etc. Do not underestimate the amount of work to make a product for the mass market at high quality. Car makers have new models on a regular schedule (3, 4, 5 years) so all changes in design can be done according to a predictable schedule. That minimizes surprise expenses and keeps quality under control. Make no mistake, the buying public will not tolerate poor quality no matter how good the gas mileage is. Even the Volt, while accelerated, is following a rigorous and proven development plan, for all the reasons stated above…
July 15th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I have similar concerns as Statik does with respect to the Volt and production. At first I was excited and fully believed that it was going to be a game changer. I’ve waited and still kept up my hopes but with this rash of bad news from GM and such I’m starting to lose hope in the Volt. I still believe the Volt will be produced but I don’t think it will come out in any significant volume within the next ten years and I don’t think too many people will be driving them or will have the oppurtunity to purchase them. I think this project has gone from high hopes down to a fading light. I think GM is still plowing ahead because they want to show that they can make this happen but once it’s produced I think it will shortly end. This is GM’s show piece and I think it’s taken a lot of resources and energy out of the company. They should have been looking at getting a few solid products out for 2010 to compete in the compact and small market segments. They haven’t though and what they currently have stinks and they don’t plan to bring anything out for a number of years. The Volt will do little good in terms of financial viability.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Remain calm, grasshopper.
The 500000 wasn’t pulled out of thin air. Honda recently announced their hybrid strategy, and they’re talking about 500000 Honda hybrids per year by 2015. The Volt is probably running on a similar timetable.
RR
July 15th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Don’t worry, others will pick up the ball GM dropped with the Beat.
Here is Ford’s “Beat” (the Fiesta)…coming in early 2010, late 2009.
- will be produced at Ford’s Cuautitlán Assembly Plant beginning in early 2010
– Cuautitlán Assembly Plant transformed from large-truck to small-car production as part of Ford’s manufacturing realignment and investment in smaller, fuel efficient vehicles
http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_0806_2010_ford_fiesta/index.html
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBRUqwXAA8
http://www.autobloggreen.com/page/3/
July 15th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
The more news I hear about the Volt, the more discouraged I get. When the Volt was first announced 1-2 years ago, I immediately thought to myself that I am DEFINITELY getting one. Now, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to get one until 2015, at the earliest.
I currently own 4 cars, all American, and I’ve been shouting “GO VOLT!, GO GM!” just like many others on this website. I guess it’s now time to start shouting “GO TOYOTA”, “GO HONDA”, “GO MITSUBISHI”, “GO SUBARU”!
As much as I regret saying this, but I guess my allegiance to domestic automakers is now officially over. Maybe Tesla will come through for me with their $30K EV in a few years.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
GM’s decision to drop health care coverage for its retired workers is understandable from the perspective of desperate men take deperate measures. GM is walking away from any payments GM is not compelled to make, even if so doing leaves a keen sense of betrayal. After all, there’s no legal document, just some promises.
The question is what lesson is to be learned from GM’s decision on retiree health care, for those of us who are prospective Volt owners. The Volt is a new product that may turn out to be fine, or may turn out to have unanticipated issues, possibly big ones, that may or may not be covered by the warranty, exactly. Judging from GM’s health care decision, I think I know what GM will do in response — walk away. So knowing that, the question is what I should do. Reminds me of the old song “If you don’t want, you don’t have to, get into trouble….”
July 15th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Ditto on demand for the Volt. it will sell.
On 40 plus MPG…just drop a dam diesel in a Cobalt and you have 50MPG. Wake up GM…where are the Diesels.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Bob Lutz says, says, “this is not the time for niche vehicles,” and “we can’t afford to hit singles and bunts. We need triples and home runs.”
——-
I would agree. That depends on GM and how high they want to price the Volt and how little of them they make.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Obama just said he wants to partner with American Automakers to create Electric infrastructure for EVs and to start making 100 mpg cars. He just said this about 5 minutes ago on PBS news. Don’t have a clue what he means with the word “partner”.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
#19 RB
To answer your question of what to do if GM looks like it’s going to walk away from the \Volt… Buy as many as you can.
I cite the RAV4-EV (from wikipedia):
“The MSRP was $42,000; but in California, ZIP-grant rebates of $9,000, decreasing in 2003 to $5,000, and a $4,000 credit from the Internal Revenue Service brought the price down to a more palatable $29,000 ($33,000 for some 2003 deliveries), including the home charger.”
And from Autobloggreen:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/28/toyota-rav4-ev-ebay-auction-resolved-still-a-record/
“We’ve been following the saga of a 2001 Toyota RAV4 EV that came up for auction on eBay and sold for a record-setting (as far as we know) bid of $89,200″
OK, that’s misleading, that bid was retracted. Psyche!
However, it still sold to the second highest bidder for $69,850.
So, for a RAV-4 EV bought (probably by a California Greenie trying to push the technology so we could all benefit, I might add
for $29k in 2001 and sold for $70k in 2008, that makes, er, about 15.6% per year on your investment!
I repeat, buy as many as you can.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
“500,000 vehicles like the Volt…” I’m quite sure the key word is “like,” as in “similar to” but not the Volt. GM will build its 200K in 4 or 5 years… maybe… but Mitsubishi, Toyota and Honda are going to press ahead and eat GM’s lunch.
New flash for ya, Maximum Bob… the demand is there.. at the right price. $40K Is not the right price when the competition is going to be w-a-a-y less than that.
Is it more sad than laughable or vice versa?
July 15th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
It’s either a bad picture, or it seems Lutz spends far too much time tanning and not enough time getting us the volt!
July 15th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Perhaps Lutz needs to be briefed on Ford’s plan to introduce the new Fiesta and Gen 3 Euro-Focus to NA in 2010. The former will be built at Hermosillo, the latter in Wayne, MI. Both are VASTLY superior to the pathetic Cobalt. I rented a Focus in Belgium in June and would love to own one. The one (and only) time I rented a Cobalt I couldn’t even fit a large suitcase into its poorly engineered trunk.
My point is, if Ford is doing this, and Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Mazda all have similar cars, why isn’t GM falling all over themselves to bring the Corsa and Beat to NA? I suppose I shouldn’t expect otherwise from management that “couldn’t foresee the current market conditions”.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Sometimes the crap I read in these exchanges just floors me. GM is at a turning point. It is both teetering on the edge and leading the way. This dichotomy tends to make a very focused and determined animal. There are concerns about how many Volts can be produced in a given period of time. Well think about it this way. How many Sherman tanks were produced during WWII when there wasn’t a SINGLE plant tooled for a vehicle that hadn’t been designed yet. Answer: over 50,000 and those were TANKS built with technologies from 60 years ago. In this current state of emergency (economic, energy, etc) the stage is set for this “moon shot” and the driving forces are obvious. We have a public looking for an alternative to $4+ per gallon fuel, a government looking for a way to stabilize our economy and decrease our dependence on foreign oil, and a major company that needs to rebound in a huge way. Once the Volt rolls out and the reception demonstrates the public’s interest, we will see the retooling of some of these plants that have closed. The demand for for batteries will be answered in the same manner. If the money/profit is there, they will build it and we will… you get the point. Call me overenthusiastic or delusional (and several certainly will) but this is the way capitalism works. The government won’t screw this one up because it may keep them from becoming involved in another bailout.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Regarding the Beat, GM targeted the car for the European market using European designers and ended up with a vehicle that cannot be driven in the US. That’s too bad, but made sense long before the price of oil took off, as fuel was only expensive in Europe.
Given that situation, GM is foregoing any tweaks on small cars, allowing the Cobalt to carry things for awhile, and instead are pushing flex fuel vehicles and mild hybrids in the near term and E-REV’s longer term.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
In surveys done by Consumer Report and listed in the automotive issues, they include survey results of present owners as to whether they would buy the same car again. Only 45% of Cobalt sedan owners say they would buy another Cobalt (as compared to 92% of Prius owners who would buy another Prius). Aveo is even worse.
The Chevy small cars are an extraordinarily weak foundation on which to base the future of GM. Mr Lutz notwithstanding, GM really needs to find a way to bring in some of its better small cars from Europe or from somewhere.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I think capitalism is driven by greed, short term profits and an adversion to risk.
Transport fuel is a crisis like the property crisis, ( generated by capitalism by the way,typified by loose financial control chasing high profits).
Similarly and regretably, I think, serious intervention by governments is required.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
“we can’t afford to hit singles and bunts. We need triples and home runs.” Baseball teams who say this never win the world series. A great baseball team needs all kinds of combinations.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
#23 DaveP — Thanks for the information. I will remember it.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
If I read that correctly GM are saying they will continue the Cobolt even while they could supply a more efficent vehicle, the Cruze.
They havent learned anything yet. Still the old ideas.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Reading this thread makes me appreciate Statik and his reasoned skepticism and cautious optimism more and more.
There is an old US manufacturing adage that falls by the wayside a lot nowadays with consumers:
You can have it fast, cheap, or well-built. Pick two.
Unproven technology, unproven battery, unfamiliar suppliers, new car design. To combat this you have a company with a shoestring budget, zero government support either moral or financial, a domestic populace that is at best apathetic at worst actively hostile to your company. To add insult to the mountain of worries: your main competition not only gets government funding and support from THEIR home country but from yours as well. GM might have earned some of this but I know enough business to know that the foundation was laid WAY before anybody who currently works there started there.
the closest competition to the object of all this turmoil is priced at 37,000 and is in test fleets still and has a lot of engineering challenges to be overcome with charging and range.
If I were either of the two gentlemen heard from today I would have written a nice long letter telling the American public to go pound sand and taken my golden parachute to the Bahamas.
GM is a profitable company in almost all overseas operations…if they shut down NA they would be a profitable and strong company overnight, the consequence would be many many many Americans, Mexicans, and Canadians in the unemployment line.
The Cruze has been pushed back because GM can either move full speed ahead with the Volt and hybridizing its SUVs (where GM has an engineering and quality dominance) or it can spend money retooling plants and rushing production of the Cruze. They can’t do it all, they don’t have the cash.
sorry to be terse but, thems the facts. Given all that is arrayed against them the first Volt coming off the assembly line is a huge victory for the company regardless of production volume (which is limited by battery production, as it always has been and which Lutz just reiterated)
July 15th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Wow GM says they want to produce a half a million of Volt like auto’s and this has people jumping ship!!!
When he said “Volt like” that is music to my ears. I don’t want a volt. I hope this statement means something like: 70K volts, 140K Silverados, 70Kthis that and the other E-Flex vehicles etc etc.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I agree Omegamann @ 35, all comments above (and I read them) seem to be saying GM is doomed… I think this is positive that half a million Volts are foreseeable.
This is terrific! Finally a real manufacturer willing to put it all on the line for ELECTRIC CARS. This is great news for energy independence!
July 15th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Wow…I have to agree with omegaman on this one. Things may look bleak at the moment but why the “summertime soldier” attitude? GM has a strategy (for what appears to be the first time in decades) and I for one am keen to see it play out.
In 1996 it appeared that Apple computer was dead in the water. That was when Steve Jobs coma back and I recall EVERYONE in the company I worked for at the time talking about how Apple was now totally sunk. the only person who didn’t agree with them was me. I see the same good future for GM now as I did for Apple then. They are making the right moves and being more focused on a few good things then trying to be everything to everybody. The Volt is just part of this strategy.
It seems to be something like this:
1. Streamline product line
2. Move toward electrification of the automobile
3. Make better vehicles (what PEOPLE want AND what they need not what GM might THINK they need)
4. Invest in next generation renewable fuel production for vehicles
5. Build vehicles for next generation fuel that GM owns/is pushing
Looks like a winning strategy for me…I hope they can pull it off
July 15th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
To be honest I grow tired of ALL of this. GM is not trying to help us out but just trying to play the game to make the most money. They do not care about us or our problems. Go find the car that works for you. It hurts to say that since I designed this car 30 years ago. There are just to many games being played.
Take Care
Arch
July 15th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Arch
You’re a seasoned observer. What games do you see?
July 15th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
#6 Mark says: “The demand IS there, but ONLY if the price is reasonable. If the price is too high, the demand vanishes.”
————————————————————————————-
The price is heavily affected by sales volume. Sales volume is heavily affected by demand. Demand is heavily affected by price. Price is heavily affected by sales volume…
GM has to find a way to break this vicious circle.
Federal tax breaks could help kick up demand. GM could also sell the Volt at a slightly negative profit margin initially. This would also help jump-start initial demand significantly, which would increase profits in few years.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Jeff M #9
“Out of curiosity, if any one knows… what safety standards does the Beat not meet for the USA, but is ok to sell in Europe? Crush zones? Air bags? And does it really take 2 years to tweak and retool?”
*** *** ***
It’s not necessarily important which ones, but rather the fact that it doesn’t meet them. The car was designed in such a way that they were never considered since GM’s Daewoo of S. Korea never had any original plans to import this vehicle to the US.
Yes it could be quite expensive and time consuming to redesign this vehicle to meet US safety standards. It would probably be cheaper to start from scratch on a new vehicle from one of GM’s existing NA platforms, which is the reason you won’t see this vehicle anytime soon.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
RB #19
“Judging from GM’s health care decision, I think I know what GM will do in response — walk away. So knowing that, the question is what I should do. Reminds me of the old song “If you don’t want, you don’t have to, get into trouble….””
*** *** ***
This is the very reason they’re only planning on releasing 10K units the first year. This car is the first instance of E-flex which is bread and butter now to GM. I doubt seriously they’ll drop it like a sack. I understand your frustration, but I’d remind you that voluntary health benefits for salaried retirees is an age old practice whose time has probably passed.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
#39 RB
JUst look at what we are seeing. First the Volt would be under $30,000. Now it is a lot higher. Then we could get a cheap little
Chevy at 40 MPG now we cant. Its the same game they keep playing over and over again and again. Its the food hung out
in front of the horse game. We have all been suckered in by now.
They have not learned a thing. I am sick of it!
Take Care
Arch
July 15th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
I do have to admit I am impressed with how fast GM has learned how to use the net. They were quick on the uptake on this one. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
July 15th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
wake up cal to gm
evs wave of the future
heres another hint
japan sweedan portugal italy amongst other nations r going electric
wake the heck up if ur not realy fullheartedly commited to evs to bad thats sad everyone else is ur gonig to be broke before u know it..
soo no old song and dance will keep u afloat u need to change the dance or make a new one up
ev. volt whatever it ends up being
it better be a whole lot cheaper then gas powered cars…
aka.. electric
July 15th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I’m sorry, but I just can’t believe Bob and Rick are still employed.
Like was mentioned earlier, GM is a global company, to not design a vehicle like the Beat for the global market is the very short-sightedness that got them where they are now.
And like was mentioned earlier, the circumstances leading to this were in the making before these GM exec’s were here is probably true. HOWEVER, they are supposed to LEAD the company, not react.
Remember, USA Today August 9, 2006 - “Even the prospect of $4-a-gallon gasoline doesn’t faze General Motors (GM) CEO Rick Wagoner” and “…Wagoner says he thinks vehicle sales are unlikely to nose-dive.”
These words are from the CEO for crying out loud, not some PR guy. That is why GM is where they are today. It is just unbelievable.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Arch # 43
“Then we could get a cheap little
Chevy at 40 MPG now we cant. Its the same game they keep playing over and over again and again. Its the food hung out
in front of the horse game.”
*** *** ***
Arch,
I’ve got to agree with you on this one. Unfortunately GM is still playing the publicly held Corp. game. With their stock at $10 and pennies I think for now they need to forget about that and stop the nonsense. It’s time for pragmatic strategies and honesty.
OTOH, I still think GM has a lot going for them. The low hanging fruit is E85 capability across all platforms, including the Cobalt and other reasonable vehicles, to include epsilon platform 4 bangers. These are extremely tough times, but I don’t think that every vehicle has to be a mini Cooper, or Prius to sell. Honestly I can’t think of a more appealing reasonably priced vehicle than the 4cyl Pontiac G6. If I’m not mistaken, all epsilon 4cyls get well over 30 on the highway, combine that with E85 capability and with a few ads you might get some customers in showrooms.
Again, E-Flex is the future, it’s just a matter of surviving, and there are many ways to do just that!
July 15th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Stew, yea, I think GM needs a management shake up at the top… like Jason said above, that’s what it took to turn Apple Computer around. Now that Steve Jobs has sold Pixar maybe he has time
Grizzley… what USA safety standards the Beat doesn’t meet is important as I’m curious and would like to know. Is the Beat and other cars on Europe’s roads unsafe? Or are our safety standards tougher than they need to be, and maybe that’s something that Congress or the US D.O.T. can address, so we can get these high miles/gallon vehicles to the USA.
As for deisel engines… I used to think that would help too… but I’m not so sure any more. Deisel around here sells for around 80 cents more per gallon than regular unleaded. That’s 20% more per gallon… and while deisel contains more energy per unit, are the equiv gas vs. deisel vehicles getting 20% more MPG? On top of that, deisel is essentially the same as home heating oil… put lots of deisel’s on the road and in the Winter both deisel and home heating oil compete, and prices for deisel will be even more than 20% than gasoline.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
May I remind everyone that the Honda Civic Hybrid is selling today for about $23,000 - Very comfortably below $30,000, to paraphrase Bob Lutz? The Prius is in the same ballpark, pricewise. I’m sorry Bob, but a price tag uncomfortably over $40,000 for a Chevy Volt = “niche vehicle”, IMHO.
I could be wrong, of course. Perhaps by 2015, hyper-inflation could bring us the $20.00 loaf of bread and the $35.00 gallon of milk. A $40,000 Volt would look inexpensive then, but a doubt Bob Lutz was counting on a weakened dollar to make the Volt more affordable. The Volt’s adjusted price would probably be about $350,000 at that point. Alarmist? We just saw a run on a US bank, something not seen in the US since the great depression in the 1930’s. Inflation’s up 4% so far this year. GM just cut health care for their retiree’s. That’s pretty heartless, but it’s just a preview of the hard times to come.
If the Volt cannot compete with it’s competition, GM’s “moon shot” will fizzle. The average American simply will not pay a $20,000 price difference for a Volt over a Civic or a Prius. They cannot afford it, even on a payment plan. Electric prices have gone up. Food prices have gone up. Prescription drugs are expensive. Not to mention we haven’t even seen what’s going to happen to home heating oil prices this winter. IMHO, it’s going to get ugly when winter sets in this year.
I hope I’m wrong. I really do. But the evening news doesn’t give me much hope, anymore. I’ll probably buy a Civic Hybrid, to tide me over until Bob begins dealership delivery of the Volt in 2011. Sorry, 2012. Sorry, 2013. Sorry, 2014. Sorry, 2015. And so on, and so on.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
I see VW are opening a plant in Tennessee and hope to become Number 2 manufacturer in the world.
The lions are moving in for the kill.
I wonder if GM understands how fast it will have to run to survive?
July 15th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
“That’s 20% more per gallon… and while deisel contains more energy per unit, are the equiv gas vs. deisel vehicles getting 20% more MPG?”
They get roughly 1.5x
I can’t find any current diesel right now to compare - not looking too hard, obviously.
But I have family with a golf TDI - here’s a comparison
Diesel: 32/41, 35 combined.
Gas: 21/28, 24 combined.
P.S. everyone stop saying niche vehicle. It gets annoying. We know its expensive, just move on.
Hopefully they’ll blow us away with a price of 30,000ish in reality and they’ve been giving high estimates to throw off competition. In the meantime.. just let it go.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
I’m almost tempted into thinking that GM should look for ST solutions way outside the box. Is anyone aware that the old Chevy S-10 pickup is one of the most sought after for EV conversions? You can buy any number of kits and convert an otherwise useless S-10 body to a pretty damn good EV. The reason is that there is plenty of under hood space for the motor and the bed lifts up to reveal a ladder frame that with little modification can accommodate 12-20 Trojan deep cycle batteries, and another 4-6 under the hood that not only are hidden, but lower the center of gravity of the vehicle. The same is probably true of the Colorado/Canyon.
Would if GM rolled Colorados and Canyons off the assy line and said, “Hold the ICE, hold the tranny” and bought kits wholesale that are already PROVEN and started selling pure 100 mile AER bevs for a reasonable price? I’ve done quite a bit of reading on this and it sure seems there are very few problems with these kits. No regen braking is understood, but these will not be expensive vehicles. Offer a 24mo/24K warranty and save many who would never have thought of going through this on their own a way to own one of these vehicles for a pittance. As a second commuter vehicle priced about $14k these could move, especially in CA. Future upgrades by Hymotion or Enerdel or….??… could extend the life and utility for decades.
Unfortunately, it won’t happen. Big business will always be big business and will only think/do things inside the box, regardless of how tough times are! It’s a nice thought though.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I just left post #87 on yesterday’s thread that also applies here….
http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/14/gms-e-flex-plans-for-europe/#comment-53050
July 15th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Exactly Grizzley,
GM still sound as if they are waiting for the boat to come in.
My off the wall suggestion is that some benevolent organisation takes an obsolete battery technology such as Nickel Metal Hydride and start large scale manufacturing of car sized batteries, for general sale.
An 8 KwHr unit would be fine.Everone else would have a better battery so it should’nt disturb the market but it should rev it up!
.(MIcrosoft perhaps?).
July 16th, 2008 at 12:04 am
As the price of fuel goes up production will rise.
A couple more re-tooled lines in 2011 will see plenty of Volt type vehicles in the pipeline. Plus whatever overseas plants are converted.
Note to GM. From the previous thread, it might be wise to factor a worse case plan of $180/barrel oil next year & $300/barrel crude for 2010. IMHO.
Announce the battery contract, already, so LG or A123 can start work on their production plant.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Here we go again oil company running GM Lutz got paid off we loose oil exec win again.I know we have to much gas and price will start dropping but thats no reason to stop on the volt.Start production for 2009 we need it please.And I think Exxon shoud go into the battery production they are going to need the revenue.LOL
July 16th, 2008 at 12:20 am
The pros for GM is that they have learned how to make more reliable cars and they have some great technology. They also have a very successful international operation.
The cons are that they have a complicated structure, complicated union agreements, complicated supplier agreements, and god awful dealer agreements.
Maybe Chapter 11 would not be a bad idea.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:26 am
bruce g # 54
Bruce, yes! My point is this. Most people doing EV conversions right now have no shortage of work, and won’t for some time into the future. These are garage mechanics who will scour junk yards and E-bay to find suitable EV host machines.
GM can build these “hosts” brand new right off the assy line. No “junk yard” needed and can either buy EV conversion kits wholesale or can EASILY make their own basing them on many PROVEN and simple designs. THIS is a LOW HANGING fruit for GM and could yet be another source of revenue. IF they chose Trojan lead-acid batts they wouldn’t have to ever lock horns with Chevron and their Nimh patent. The way the world is today, this would suffice, because as I pointed out, VERY soon Enerdel, Altairnano, and Hymotion will have Li-ion upgrade solutions. This is why no one would balk at a 24/24 warranty, and additionally these will be buyers that understand the market and its future. I’m guessing that backed by a fortune 5 company there would be many who would choose this vehicle over ANY hybrid no ands ifs or butts!
July 16th, 2008 at 12:35 am
@Arch,
You are right. Lutz is full of crap. It will be more than just “a few years” before GM starts producing 500,000 Volts per year, and GM knows that. Why is GM spewing out this garbage?
GM will get absolutely killed once the Fiesta arrives and Ford ramps up even more production on the Focus. And that’s not even considering what the Japanese have in store for them.
And as for the Volt, I’ll believe it when I see it.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:36 am
You just do what I did bought a cash mitsubishi galant 4 cyl no more $ 400.00 a month payment all goes to gas .Im using $ 20.00 of gas a week insted of 4x $ 80.00+$ 400.00 =$ 720.00 a month versus $ 80 a month.And just liability insurance $ 100.00 a month .We really dont need a new volt , sorry to say but GM is DOOMED…..play TAPS for GM say bye bye bye bye.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:59 am
>> You’re a seasoned observer. What games do you see?
I am too. 8 years of driving FULL hybrids has a way of tuning you into the nonsense played with publicity. Many, many, many promises have been broken. That’s why it is considered a game now by some. You simply can’t take it seriously anymore. There is a complete disconnect between intentions and what finally gets delivered. Hope for the best and wait to see what actually happens.
Eventually, the needed realism will settle in. Then hybrid production will truly become impressive, as if posts like this never happened…
July 16th, 2008 at 1:05 am
B O #22
Here is the text of Obama’s response during the PBS interview. He seems to get the general idea though he doesn’t seem to know about the Volt Nation (gasp!). I particularily like the “we have the technology now” part. Too bad she didn’t push more on what a partnership would be. I’d like it to be rebates based on GM production — more production means a bigger rebate per vehicle:
GWEN IFILL: If the government should step in in other ways to shore up things like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, why shouldn’t the government step in to help companies like GM?
As far as a company like GM is concerned, I have already said that as president, I want to partner with U.S. automakers to help them make the fuel-efficient cars of the future. We have the technology now to have a 100-mile-per-gallon hybrid; we have the technology now to start developing an electricity grid where you can plug in your car at night, and not only would you get energy from that grid but you’d also be able to sell energy back into that grid. But we haven’t had a serious commitment to it, and I have said repeatedly that I am interested in partnering with U.S. automakers to develop and fine-tune some of this technology.
July 16th, 2008 at 1:17 am
I feel a bit sad along with a few posters here on Bob Lutz’s latest comments on his baby. He sounds less optimistic and appears different about Volt than before. GM appears to be showing that it’s first priority is to keep its head above waters by all means of cost cutting than looking for new products, and Volt and its’ cousins appears to be one of the last straws for them. Hope and pray that Wagnor will be able to steer GM well in these troubled waters in time.
July 16th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Grizzly,
Yes, that would do.
We need to shake out the structured view of the auto industry and facilitate some new players.
Make sure the resources they need are available
Vive la revolution!
July 16th, 2008 at 1:53 am
No beat = bad move.
Cruz 40mpg? = So what? My Tercel gets 56 US MPGS on the highway.
40 mpg is NOTHING to get excited about.
July 16th, 2008 at 3:28 am
Electric car conversions. This is beginning to sound like a good business to be in.
What would people pay to have their vehicle converted?
You could also buy clean old cars and trucks, convert them and sell them. Recycle the motor and transmission for metal and put in an electric drive train. Hmmmm.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:28 am
#66 len
10K for the Motor and controllers and chargers etc. Battery would be above that.
I have been hoping and posting about this for a long time. Lionev appeared to be one of the best but partial scam has surfaced about them. Looking forward to the day when people have the option to convert their cars over from any number of semi-local companies.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:44 am
Brad # 3 says, “Focus all attention on the Volt and get it out ASAP and you will be saved and quite possible save America.”
Agreed. The sooner the better….if it’s reliable, that is.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:47 am
Fred X #7.
That was funnier than hell. I don’t agree with everything you said, but it was funny.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:56 am
RB #19
I’ll take it a little further. GM screwed those retirees. Most of them probably worked their entire careers at GM. They are retired and were promised the their medical insurance would be covered.
Now they don’t have it and where are they supposed to get it?
I’m in a similar situation. We have a promise, but that is it.
I’m a couple of decades away from retirement, but I hope something is there when I do finally make it.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:23 am
Fred X #7. OMG. I’m rolling with laughter.
At 35K, Volt is certainly a niche vehicle. It doesn’t make economic sense when I can go buy a 40 mpg car for 20K during the same time frame, though I’m sure the Volt will roast them in acceleration. I wish them the best of luck but we all know there’s a ton of excess profit being rung out of the Volt’s excitement. Really guys. 40K and you’ve eliminated a parallel drive train? They’re taking a lead from the electronics biz and differentiating less cost sensitive early adopters by jacking up the price. Good business sense, but don’t pretend that its actually economical for average Jo’s. GM has no intention of “saving america.” Like any good business, they want the money. That’s why they’re going to be exporting these.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:24 am
#43 Arch Thanks. I agree. ..RB
July 16th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Rashid Amul #70
I think GM dropped the health care because they are a car company, not a healthcare company. They will do all they can for their employees, as do most companies, but when their own existence is threatened, they have to cut some corners.
Much of this comes from years of union concessions that many other automakers have not had to make. Honestly, if I was Rick Wagoner, I’d let them all strike, then fire them, and hire all new people. Sounds drastic, but every time the UAW threatens to strike on Toyota, that’s exactly what Toyota tells them. That’s why GM has something like 1900 dollars in overhead that Toyota doesn’t.
I’m not saying that corporations shouldn’t honor their promises, I’m just saying they should have to make inane promises to begin with. GM currently has more pensioners than they have active employees. WAY more. (Something like a million pensioners to less than 200,000 global employees now). That just seems wrong to me. Can’t people save their money, and plan for their own futures instead of having their employer do it for them?
July 16th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Beat is a terrible name for a car !
Given the market share lost to Toyota over the years, GM’s marketing research people must now think they’re joke writers for Leno and Letterman.
Why not the Saturn Surrender ? Opel Uncle ?
A small pickup version you say ?
Why of course that would be the new “Beat-Up”.
A Question for the day.
Will Dodge’s first electric vehicle be called the Plug-In “Charger”.
Inquiring minds want to know.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:58 am
66 Len:
Don’t do it.
Warranty is probably zero (90 days)
There has probably been zero crash testing (its pretty expensive)
One lawsuit and these companies are toast.
Trust me, these garage upfitters are nasty. If you are getting your vehicle converted go with an approved bailment upfitter for any of the OEM companies. You will save yourself a lot of headaches in the long run.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:00 am
73 Will:
No, people forget GM capitulated to a lot of these contracts due to UAW strike threats at either suppliers or main plants.
GM used to be vertically integrated which allowed them a 2-3 year design cycle.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:08 am
To me, the hardest news to hear from this press conference isn’t so much the Beat not coming to the U.S., but the slow as molasses intro. of the Cruze. As some already have said here, the Cruze is needed NOW, as in today! Not a year and a half from now. The Cobalt isn’t terrible by any measure I can see, (and I have checked them out), but it’s not top of class either. The Cruze, at least what can be seen in the spy photos looks like a contender, and if it can maintain the efficiency claims being made by GM, I can’t help but think this would be a hot seller. Especially for a world just beginning to get warmed up to the coming EV revolution. Shoot, why not offer a 2-mode system as an option for 50+mpg efficiency? The Cruze could be a veritable game changer all its own if done right. In terms of the Cruze, just like the Volt, the sky is the limit!
GM, if you are reading this, please consider bringing the Cruze to market in the U.S. as soon as humanly possible! Also, if you haven’t already, consider making a version of the Cruze as a true hybrid. These things just plain make sense! Thank you.
Climbing off soapbox now.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:17 am
People can plan for their future, but when they are told that the healthcare is covered and then the company pulls the rug out from under them it is just wrong.
Healthcare and health insurance should have nothing to do with employment. Before long that will be the case, but people and companies that don’t honor their promises are just liars. Verbal promises can be acted on like contracts and turn into lawsuits and I am sure we are going to see a big class action on this one where the company pays, the people get next to nothing and the lawyers get a new summer home or yacht.