Mitsubishi Prices the iMiEV Close to the Expected Price of the Chevy Volt
As many here may know, Mitsubishi has built working prototypes of a pure electric car it calls the iMiEV. These vehicles have been demonstrated in the U.S. and Japan, and are currently undergoing fleet monitoring tests.
The Nikkei recently reported that Mitsubishi plans on selling these cars in Japan beginning in 2009, with 2000 units produced in the first year and 10,000 units by 2011.
The vehicle is a 2300 pound 4-seater that uses a 16 kWh lithium-ion battery pack powering a 47 kw motor and is able to achieve a top speed of 85 mph. Whether it will come to the U.S. isn’t known, but the initial starting price in Japan will be $37,496 USD.
110V charge time is listed as 14 hours, max range is 100 miles, and there is no range extender.
Compared with the Volt, with its aggressive styling, 120 kw motor, 100 mph top speed, and range extender, it is worth noticing that both cars will be so similar in pricing.
Source (Trading Markets ), (GreenCarCongress ), and (Mitsubishi )
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Related posts:
- Mitsubishi Chairman Yorihiko Kojima Drives an i-MiEV to Work Everyday
- Enter Mitsubishi to the Plug-in Race: i MiEV Sport
- Mitsubishi i-MiEV to Use Wireless Charging System
- Mitsubishi Press Release
- Lutz: $40,000 is Breakeven Price for the Chevy Volt and First Generation Will Not Make Money For GM
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July 12th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
It’s a very impressive car, a little more expensive than I had thought it would be, but less than the Volt is likely to be. (And not as good, either.) Perhaps we should wait to discuss comparative styling until we know what the Volt will look like.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
If Mitsubishi is smart, they’ll keep this away from direct competition with the Volt. You’d have to be pretty braindead …
July 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
A 14 hour charge time would never fit with my schedule.
100 miles max is too short for my 101 miles per day.
No range extender means range anxiety.
People in this country (if it is sold here) will most likely need a second car that was an ICE car. I see this car as an NEV mostly because of its limited range. But perhaps those commuters that commute less than I would appreciate it more.
I believe I sat in one of these at Voltnation. I remember being impressed with how much room was inside.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
I’d prefer the Volt because it has an ICE backup. Even so, remembering that most people have commutes of 40 miles or less, I think there is a big potential market for this car in the US, if it costs significantly less than the Volt. Maybe even me.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
They are all going to price these cars high till they get some history with them. Bean counters tend to do that with new concepts. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
July 12th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Arch, # 5.
Agreed. I also think Supply and Demand will have something to do with the high price.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Keep in mind something that most people forget when they discuss electric cars, light rail, or the other stuff tht has taken off in more countrys then the US…we are MUCH bigger. The U.S. is MUCH larger then France and it’s great rail system, and far more rural then Japan and it’s highly compressed population and megacenters. I was just in Bermuda, an electric car would have been great there, you could have gone around the entire island five times with a 100 mile range. This is also why I get annoyed when everyone says we need a light rail system like France, and I have to point out that our cities are much further apart and there’s no way to make it cost effective for everyone who actually would need it.
The issue in this country really boils down to there being a lot more of it that is actually worth seeing (Russia has had some sucess with electrics too, but mostly in the western parts where almost everything is concentrated, while Siberia is understandably ignored).
July 12th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Personally, I don’t ‘need’ over 100 miles in range. But what I would need is a charging time shorter then 14 hours. If I was to the the iMiev instead of the Volt, I would also get an electrician to install a 220V socket.
In either case..more electric cars = more competition = reducing prices.
Consumer wins either way.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Yet another example of an EV destined to use Li-ion batts. No, this vehicle is not a hybrid! If our guest of honor from the previous thread doesn’t have an agenda I’d expect him to rain on this parade as well.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
The Volt looks better than ever.
July 12th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
From the iMiEV web site we also know that the prototype car has 200V, 100V, and a quick-charge connector, apparently for filling station type use, so it is not necessarily a 14-hour recharge time. Possibly it’s 7 hours, or possibly only a few minutes. We are Volt fans, but let us not sell the iMiEV short — it is a strong contender..
July 12th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
This is a solid step forward. Good job Mitsubishi. However, it is the perfect example of a car I think most of us would not want to drive here in the US. I’m sorry, I want to drive something that looks like the production volt. Every person I have told about the Volt shows only cursory interest until I show them the pictures of the production car. Then they sign up on the wait list! It is CRITICAL for the Volt to be cool looking. GO VOLT!
Former Lancer OZ Rally owner.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
My son says this looks like an inflated Prius. I want a Volt that will move, 47 KW is too small. I saw the testing video of this and I would need a can opener to get out of it.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
This car is good for japan but not so good for the USA. Japan needs to get off oil also, so this is good news.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I really like the IMiev as a second car but it is tiny, its wheelbase is 133″,
which is more than a foot smaller than a Mini and about a foot and a half shorter than a Yaris. We are talking tiny, and they are going to ask $37,000+ for it in Japan? Color me skeptical, I bet it will be less, or it won’t be a success. And though it might take just a year or two more to get it to the US, they will find a way to make it a bit more roomy.
First and foremost, this car plugs in and that is incredibly important! Kudos to Mitsubishi for that. 100 mile range is nice, but the lack of a range extender makes it problematic if it is your only car.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-autobloggreen-drives-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-w-vid/
July 12th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
This is probably a practical car for many applications, but it looks like a dwarfed minivan.
I am really happy some Japanese companies are committed to electric vehicles now. I hope more from Japan, US and Europe follow suit. Competition and free trade is a wonderful thing for the people.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
I think this is an important bit of information. This shows how GM isn’t just making a science project. They are wanting to make a car that is comparable to a normal ICE vehicle. In terms of durability the volt is hoping to be similar to a normal car. The battery will degrade in a similar rate to an ICE. If this electric motor is made like any other large scale electric motor I have used, it should almost last forever. So, it will be interesting to see where the repairs for the volt will come from. Looking at iMiEv and it’s pricing just shows me that GM has took many more steps in turns of making this car comparable to standard ICE vehicles of the day.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Well, ICE vehicle performance from an EV costs $109,000 from Tesla Motors. For $37,500, you get slow recharge, low top speed, satisfactory range.
That said, I believe the iMiev will still sell in this current environment, so I look forward to it reaching the market.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Hahahah what Lyle, you don’t think the iMiev counts as “aggressive styling?”
July 12th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I think the volt might be too much muscle. I know GM is looking for something “uncompromising” that will get overcompensating boys excited, but they are clearly sacrificing efficiency for performance. From what i’ve seen about the interest here, we basically want a PHEV Prius except some more room and some style and performance. I don’t think any one here is really looking for a muscle car. What do i mean? Look at the volt specs: 120kw motor! 53kw ICE. Its ridiculous.
At 60 mph, the 8kw of juice will carry the volt 40 miles. which means ergo, a 12 kw pack can carry the volt 60 miles @ 60mph. We therefore know that to maintain highway speed (~60mph) we only need 12kw. Of course thats on flat roads. Assuming the ICE is scaled to allow you to drive up the Rockies, you might need some more continuous oomph, but i seriously doubt anything more than 30kw is necessary to maintain the batt’s SOC even under demanding load, and certainly not if you can knock some serious weight out. So why is the genset scaled to put out 53 kw peak? Are they overbuilding for durability? I mean that certainly is the American Way for trucks/suvs and midsized cars. But thats the old way of building, we’re all shifting to economy with $4+ gas.
If you are on the highway with this 53kw peak monster, the ICE prolly puts out 30kw at its effect fuel efficiency/torque ratio, then you’ll be cycling the ICE on and off and putting extra cycles on the batteries. If, the ICE scales down to only put out 12kw to avoid battery wear, you are certainly not at an efficient torque ratio with a 53kw monster. I don’t get it, why take such a trade off? Why not knock the ICE down to 0.8L- 30kw, and make it an air cooled solid aluminum flat 4….like the old beetle and those large displacement choppers from the 60s and 70s? They got 2 years left to design and do a limited build of an old and proven technology. Heck, they might even be able to digg up a few aging engineers who have some experience with it.
With no radiator you’ll easily knock $400 of cost out, and maybe 500-$1000 of cost with the lighter engine and cheaper metal.
You’d save fuel, cost, increase platform design flexibility and cut maybe 400lbs out, thus extending the AER and fuel efficiency in RE mode.
Do i have this stuff right? I’d like to put this to automotive engineering brains on this board and maybe lyle could ask about this next time he chats with folks at GM.
–
#DA
July 12th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Jake & da,
The iMiev is a cute little bug, not an aggressively styled conventional vehicle. If you are “man enough” to wear pink polo shirts and drive cute cars, more power to you, but it is not overcompensating to like the aggressive looks of the Volt over the iMiev.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
#20 da
The Volt will use an off the shelf family zero engine in order to save cost. Designing a new engine specifically for the Volt would be too expensive.
The specific output range of the ICE/genset is to keep the batt at a 30% SOC under virtually any driving conditions, including conditions which might include heavy acceleration and minimal regen. As far as muscle is concerned, WRT EVs, generally the larger the motor the more efficient it is.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
I do not want to hea about BEV other than as a joke.. Might as well bring back the EV-1. when the BEV becames at least as advanced as a Pentium 4 then we may have something. This is just another expensive golf-cart. E-REV is the transformational current (PUN) technology not BEV. I predict that Mitsubishi will not sell this car here. Should this car break down, we will need a very long cord to plug-in and lots of patience (14 hrs). No sale for me thank you. If what I write sound harsh it is because I feel that any misstep will detract from the real deal which is the extender concept. No distance no competing with ICE. This is not the way to electrification of transportation.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
“but the initial starting price in Japan will be $37,496 USD.”
The price for consumers will be more like $23,500 to 28,200 (or 2.5 to 3 million yen), no where near $37,496 because Mitsubishi knows no one would buy it for that price.
It would be fair to pose the question, “Will Japanese subsidies cover units built for export?”, or “What are the the exact nature of the subsudies?” but the post doesn’t do that. Instead, it seems to aim to make Volt fans feel better about being charged $40,000 for a Chevy.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
#22 Grizzly,
i understand all that but you didn’t address my questions. Light-weighting and costs reductions should not be dismissed so quickly out of hand. As per the cost of new engine tech, its irrelevant, as GM will be spending plenty of coin on new, redesigning and retooling anyhow for smaller, direct injection, vvt, turbo charged engines.
The Flat-4 solid aluminum head engine i speak of is not new. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air_cooled_engine
Don’t underestimate the huge savings with such expensive metals prices, and the reduction of complexity by knocking out the active cooling system. The volts AC/Heater will be electrically driven and she will have no tranny, thus no tranny cooler. Therefore, you don’t have to radiator-mount condenser coil, you’ll have no radiator fluid circulating to a valved heater core, or tranny fluid cooler. So, who the F needs a radiator bro! Finned out aluminum head, properly sized with flat electric blowers can do all the cooling.
Remember, the Volt’s Ice won’t take much wear over its life. Nonetheless, these engines are cost effective, light, and notoriously durable when done right. Just what the Volt needs. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are playing around with something like this in the lab, its not a big deal to recruit a few VW engineers. Or, forget developing it in house, its available off the shelf. Just contract out the small production run.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
What a piece of junk……just buy a Volt for endless potential range and a few hours of recharging. Not to mention the Volt doesn’t look like Bean, as this thing does.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
The last time I was in Japan a canteloupe (muskmelon) sold for about $100. I haven’t priced a car there, but my Japanese friends tell me virtually everything is extremely expensive compared to the US. My guess is that Mitsu would find it necessary to build this BEV here to avoid their high labor & shipping costs. GM, you can relax!
July 12th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Oh yeah, gm already did this engine in the Corvair..IN 1965!!!!
Just don’t tell Ralph Nader about the engine…
July 12th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
I could spend $37,500 for a iMiEV, or I could spend about $10k less for a 40 mpg ICE. $10k can buy me 2,000 gallons of $5 gas, or 80k miles.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Regarding the $37.5K price…
It could be cheaper than that price if/when it comes to the USA, as described in this very enlightening article:
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
As described in that article…
Japanese companies tend to only deploy new products domestically until they can work all the bugs out. That way the product has a higher level of perceived quality (a few years later) when it finally reaches their foreign markets.
In the mean time, Japanese companies can sell it domestically at an inflated price, since they (by design) don’t really compete with each other domestically. Their goal is to dominate foreign companies, not their fellow Japanese companies. Since competition from foreign companies is not really allowed within their domestic market, that works for them quite well. And their high domestic profits also allow them to undercut their foreign competition once their product sells outside of Japan.
It’s this simple yet brilliant global strategy that has allowed Japan to transition (in less than 50 years) from a war-beaten third-world country to the world’s richest and most modern country. It’s also the recipe that has allowed Japan to now dominate or own so many industries. Unfortunately, in the USA, this same strategy would be considered racist and illegal, and thus is not allowed.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Paul-R
You or someone else keeps posting that same erroneous article. How can Japan be the World’s richest country when their GDP is about $4.4Trl and the United States’ is about $13.8Trillion? Not to mention that their per capita income is about $38K and the United States’ is about $44K??
July 13th, 2008 at 12:11 am
The price is high but it’s hard to compare Japanese domestic prices with US prices.
This would seem to be a direct competitor to the Aptera given its size, range, and top speed, These cars might work for some people (myself included), but you’d also want/need another car for longer trips or for trips that involved freeway driving.
The Volt is entirely different critter in that it can compete more directly against standard ICE sedans.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:44 am
I like to hear green news. But damb it really seems that Gm has been affecting the market world wide. It really does seem that Gm has set the standard and are the people to beat when it comes to mas marketed ev’s and extended range vehicles. Gm said that it woudl produce 10,000 volts and so are they , There battery compacity is half of the volts and the price is slightly under. Its not a bad thing that they are inventing new cars and creating competition. It actually is making it better for us the consumer.
. Its just something that i have noticed increasingly as more and more manufactures date new ev’s comuing out in 2010-2011. Everybody is out to be just as good as , near as , or better than the volt.. It has literally become much bigger than the volt, whether it turns out to a success of failure ( that woudl be breaking the camels back) there are going to be many mass market ev;s with range extenders out there available o the consumer that will still push for an electric world.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:51 am
“until I show them the pictures of the production car. ”
We have pics of it? Since when? o.O
July 13th, 2008 at 1:04 am
I have to admit that I really like the look of the car as in the image Lyle posted. It’s c-u-t-e, and I’m secure in my man hood to admit it. However like any prototype, the look of the production vehicle can look very different from the prototype(s).
I am disappointed it, like the Volt, is only a 4 seater. I’m sure that meets the needs of most of the population, but I do on occasion carry 5 (myself and 4 passengers).
For those worried about the 14 hour charge time at 110 volts… keep in mind that is for a full charge from the lower limit state of charge to the upper limit state of charge… so with a range of 100 miles/charge, unless you approach that range on a daily basis, if you plug-in every night, you won’t take 14 hours to bring it back up to full charge. And on top of that keep in mind that the longest part of a charging cycle is in getting to “full” charge.
For me, 100 miles/charge and a top speed of 85 mph is more than enough 99.5% of the time.
That said, if the prices of the iMiEV and the Volt are relatively close, and that I also rarely drive more than 40 miles in a given day, the Volt would be the better choice. However give me a iMiEV with only 50 miles of range and around $25k, and that would be very tempting to me. I’d keep my Volvo as a second care for the rare times I need more range. Of course if a plug-in Prius with 10 or 20 mile range before it reverts to it’s hybrid mode getting 50+ mpg is also $25k, and it seats 5, that may be more tempting than all the others. It’s still too far out, and other auto makers may have offerings by then, to really do a cost/benefit analysis for my circumstances (which could change by then to).
July 13th, 2008 at 1:18 am
Re: to Kevin fr NYC
Yea, it’s interesting for a change that GM “seems” to be setting the standard… I do give them credit for being the first major automaker to plan to mass market a plug-in series hybrid (aka range extended EV). Even just 10,000 Volt’s in the 1st year is very impressive.
However they are far from being innovators… the Volt is essentially the same design as their range extended 4 (or 5) seat EV1 prototype they had built back in 1999, except the genset then was powered by a flex fuel turbine engine… the same as Volvo’s ECC prototype 7 years earlier (1992) except the Volvo ECC got closer to 60 miles/charge on NiCad’s (the best tech available at the time) and was a full sized sedan (built on the 850 platform). Sadly Ford bought Volvo in 1999 and completely killed Volvo’s EV and hybrid programs.
But even Volvo wasn’t the 1st to have prototype plug-in hybrids…. there have been many over the decades.
The biggest thing “revolutionary” are using Li based battery systems which are more energy dense and lighter.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:19 am
37K for such a small bubble?
Nah, give me the VOLT @ 40K with range-extender ANY day!
GO GM, GO VOLT!
July 13th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Great car! Most people only drive 40 miles per day. The price seems high, but a lease would resolve that issue. I hope to wake one morning to the silence of these electrics instead of the hum of ICEs…
July 13th, 2008 at 3:44 am
I happen to like the MiEV. It’s very practical and efficient (over twice the AER of the Volt with 16kWh). It’s just too expensive for what you get.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:49 am
My problem with limited range BEV types is that you then have to plan which vehicle to drive each day, based on where you will have to go. And I do not know about the rest of you, but plans in my life are rarely static, so if I have the BEV outside, and I get a phone call asking me to go to an appointment that is 40+ miles away, I would then have to either borrow someone else’s car, or reschedule the appointment. In today’s business climate, that is not a good idea….
So it is the Volt for me!!!! E-REV makes all this work!
Go GM Volt Team!!!!!!!!!!
July 13th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Actually, here is what’s worth noting:
1. Same energy battery pack (16 kWh) produces 100 miles range in the iMiEV compare to 40 in a Volt.
2. This car is infinitely closer to reality than the Volt. They will be on sale next year as opposed to something less determinate.
I am very intrigued by the iMiEV and must say I would love to have one as a second car…with the primary car being a Volt, of course.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:24 am
The iMiEV is what happens when marketing people think electric cars are only niche cars for tree huggers.
The Volt is what happens when marketing people think electric cars are for the masses.
Big difference…
July 13th, 2008 at 8:32 am
If it does land at $37K in the States, it is a monsterous blow to all EVs, it says, ‘rich only’ Seeing how Mitsu has said NOTHING about it…I’ll hold off judgement.
The thread above quotes, “Whether it will come to the U.S. isn’t known, but the initial starting price in Japan will be $37,496 USD” Well, no. If you read the article, it guesses ‘around’ 4 million yen…and it also references the monster subsidy available in Japan now. Which somehow has been totally left out of the article here? Seeing how the actual heart of the link is only two sentences, you would think all the information should be presented here.
“But government subsidies…are likely to reduce the actual retail price to ($28,000USD)”
You can’t really quote a comparable USD price, when the gov’t is stirring the pot so much in Japan. You have everyone in this thread talking about $37,000 as the price people are actually going to pay…and that simply is not the case.
Much like when the Prius has the gov’t subsidy of $4,000…it was $4,000 higher. The same time the subsidy was gone…magically the price was lowered. I said this before, but subsidies and rebates aren’t for the public. If the market will pay $30,000 and the subsidy is $5,000…the price will be set at $35,000. If the subsidy was $10,000, the price would be set at $40,000.
That being said the original and ONLY time this has been stated is in a Japanese newspaper “The Nikkei,” in a opinion piece.
Lyle has given three ’sources’
The first two ’souces’ are just quoting from this third party opinion piece in the Japanese paper. The third is a random link to Mitsu’s faq on the i-Miev.
Didn’t we just have a big post talking about the press twisting things? I believe that thread ended with this statement, “So lets focus on the facts folks, GM has enough challenges without having to be unfairly portrayed by the press.”
/does the same standard not apply for Mitsubishi?
July 13th, 2008 at 8:33 am
This is an excellent car for a traffic jam (so please launch it on the Dutch market as well):
- Low or no power loss at standstill;
- Clean air;
- No motornoise at standstill;
- Smooth accelleration and decelleration (I assume);
However powering the HVAC-system on hot days will probably drain the battery. Nevertheless I like this development of EV’s although I prefer the Volvo PHEV with in-wheel motor technology. Unfortunately that’s only a concept.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Yes the claimed range seems suspect. The range of the Volt, even we we accept the unreal conditions that give rise to the 40 AER claim, is based on 5 miles per KWH (8 KWH x 5 miles). Sixteen times 5 only gives you 80 miles.
And if the iMiev does not offer a 220 Volt charging option, they would seem to be missing the obvious.
GM has already indicated that the Volt will not have a 40 mile range if driven at 60 miles per hour, more like a 28 mile range, so I do not think “da” has it right on at least that point.
Next the larger motor and generator do not of themselves cost too much in the way of energy efficiency, I expect the added weight is insignificant. Now the larger motor will allow a person to use more energy (more rapid acceleration, higher up hill speed, etc) per mile traveled, but if driven efficiently, due to responding to the efficiency nurturing instrumentation, then the additional capacity will have an insignificant effect.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:56 am
The iMiEV looks to be a solidly designed car. I don’t think they designed this car for tree huggers, but for practicality. The areodynamics are critical, and yes this shape is aerodynamic. The size needs to be small, to make the batteries near affordable.
Regarding 14 hour charge time. This can be halved by installing a 220V outlet in your garage. We already have 220V in our homes, our electric stoves and dryers use it today. The cost to install an outlet would probably be less than $1,000 (The Volt will have same issues). Also, they have the quick charge option, which can charge in 30 minutes. I don’t know if this would be an option for a homeowner, but most likely not, and would likely be very costly.
The performance is what it’s all about. Looks, can be something that people with big pocketbooks can add on later (also, they will add more batteries, since they will reduce the aerodynamics and increase weight.).
This car wont fit everyone’s needs, and no car does. BUT, this car is a mass market car. I would say the Volt is more likely to be a niche car. I am not convinced that the Volt will be available in 2010, and I think the price will end up being higher than the $40,000 I keep hearing. The Volt is a long way from reality, the iMiEV is here and is being announced for production. The iMiEV price is high mainly due to the cost of the Li-ion batteries. This could be more palattable if they could possibly lease the battery. The Volt will have the same pricing issue, plus they need to support the costs of the ICE and all the mechanical issues that go along with it. I see the Volt priced at $50k minimum, now that I see what the iMiEV is priced at.
I do hope that Volt is a success, but I want to see more tangible evidence than just pictures of a Malibu mule running around a test track and pictures of a shell of a concept car.
July 13th, 2008 at 9:18 am
The 100 mile range for a 16 kWh battery pack is an “aggressive” claim for a car with a weight (2300 lb.) that is 70 - 75% of that of the Volt (3,000 lb.) and aerodynamic drag that is at least 70 - 75% that of a Volt. Given that the Volt is expected to get around 6 miles per kWh, presumably with no A/C, lights, etc., the iMiEV would get about 8 miles per kWh, i.e., use 12.5 kWh per 100 miles. 12.5 kWh would equal a 78% DOD, which would be quite detrimental to battery life compared to the Volt’s 50% DOD.
However, it should be noted that a BEV battery pack is not routinely subjected to deep discharges since it is likely recharged after any meaningful drive, whether it be 40 or 100 miles. The driving cycle used to determine this 100 mile claim and the iMiEV battery pack’s power and cycle life capabilities would be of interest for any meaningful comparison.
July 13th, 2008 at 9:42 am
#47 Northern Piker
You bring up alot of interesting questions about just how the range is achieved in the i-Miev.
I would be curious to see what the percentage of the battery is in use myself. We know the Volt is 50%, and some others have claimed higher efficiencies so they can use up to 90% (with no data to back it up).
Mitsu has been fleet testing these things for ages now. Getting our hands on some of the raw data would be a fantastic look into the realities of Li-Ion in practical use….and the i-Miev itself.
Something tells me we will have to wait until it is ‘on the road’ and into the hands of a 3rd parties (at least it won’t be that long to wait). Then we will see how it all shakes down. Should give us some really good ‘real world’ insight into some realties of the Volt.
July 13th, 2008 at 9:52 am
I for one will not count the MiEV out. It’s a BEV and that’s what I want. I think the price will be substantially lower if offered in the US for the reasons above, plus economy of scale, technolgy improvements, tax credits, etc.
I don’t care for the size and appearance, but it’s the first viable option that meets my specs. I love the Volt, but this is a BEV and doesn’t use Petro AT ALL. BRING THIS TO THE STATES MITSU!
July 13th, 2008 at 10:23 am
“You or someone else keeps posting that same erroneous article. How can Japan be the World’s richest country when their GDP is about $4.4Trl and the United States’ is about $13.8Trillion? Not to mention that their per capita income is about $38K and the United States’ is about $44K??”
The US’s debt is the highest of all countries listed in the World Economic Outlook Database (summarized here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance )
US has almost -$13T, Japan has +$201B, Mexico -$5.4B, Canada +$28B, etc. Most developed nations are on the +, but a few are “in the red”
By this list, they’re technically second richest :p
By raw number, China is first.
But per capita (against china, at least) Japan is first.
Adjusting other countries’ values may net someone else on top, but I couldn’t be bothered, really.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:30 am
GM needs to keep their eye on the ball. The MAIN competition that GM is going to have to match up well against is of course the new Priuses that are on the way … particularly the plug-in Prius which we probably won’t see in dealerships until mid 2011 or so.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_toyota_prius_car_news
GM better get their marketing people in high gear and try to find out as much as possible about the new Priuses on the way. I want the Volt to be a very good VALUE and have features that are just as good if not better than what Toyota is going to put in their upcoming Priuses.
The Volt vs. the plug-in Prius is probably going to be an ongoing battle in the next 10 years like with the midsize sedans … the Accord, Camry, Malibu, etc. You know the car magazines and Consumer Reports will do a head to head competition between them. I want GM to WIN those competitions for a change. I’m tired of seeing the Japanese cars get so many awards in those magazines. It’s time for AMERICAN cars to undergo a big resurgence and become THE premier cars that people want to buy year after year.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:35 am
For those wondering how they can get 100 miles out of a 16kwh pack, when the Volt is only 40 out of the same size pack….
… remember the recent EnerDel thread… it’s a different battery chemistry. The Volt is actually only using 50% or 8kwh of the it’s battery’s capactity. EnerDel claims their’s can use 95% of raw capacity, or 15.2kwh.
If the iMiEV uses EnerDel or another pack that can also have that much usable capacity then 80 mile range on that alone sounds possible. On top of that the iMiEV sounds lighter (someone mentions 2,300 pounds) than the Volt so more range can be had there. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the iMiEV, at least as pictured above, has less aerodynamic drag
As for those saying the iMiEV, at least as pictured above, will only be liked by tree huggers…. they said the same thing about the Prius! Don’t under estimate the general public… even before gas prices got to their current level, now they can’t make enough of them to meet demand.
Jim I… as has been already mentioned, there is no such thing as a one size fits all vehicle. While I don’t think you are the only one who lives such a dynamic life, I do think as you described it’s not the majority… and even though we all have a little variability in our fixed daily routines, some of it unplanned at the start of the day, for many or most we travel less than 100 miles per day.
So give us all choices, and hopefully different prices (ie. something more affordable for the masses), so we all can drive an EV in one form or another within the next 10-15 years!
July 13th, 2008 at 10:38 am
#43 Statik makes an important point. The actual price to the Japanese public will be (equivalent of) $28000 US. (The difference between that price and what’s give in Lyle’s post is the Japanese government’s subsidy.) At $28K, I think the iMiEV will sell out in Japan.
Also, as Mitsu has been loaning these cars to power companies to get ready, it may be that stations for quick charge (full charge in a few minutes) will be available in Japan about the time the car is available for purchase. Maybe the best part is that there is no elecric vs ICE integration issue which greatly simplifies the issues of computer software and overall control.
For a car that seems to be a “me too” follow up to the Volt, we have to admire Mitsu’s ability to move development forward so quickly.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:53 am
I have to agree with some of the opinions above. If the $37,496 USD rings true, it is too expensive for a BEV. The reason is, most people will need a second car. The Volt can stand on its own.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:57 am
This early bird BEV from Mitsubishi is really cute and could prove to be very popular in Asia and Europe and may be in US also. Since they have only replaced the power train from their production 660cc ICE i minicar with a electric power train to make the i MiEV without much modification it is clear that they have incurred little development cost for the body and the seemingly high price could point to the the high cost of the Li-ion battery.
#3 Rashiid Amul
Just see the site
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/ev/whatis/index.html
If you could provide a 220V 15 Amp outlet from home using a step up transformer ,full battery recharging will take place in 7 hours, not to mention the possibility of a 30 minute quick charge to 80% from a 400v quick charge facility out side as mentioned in # 46
#9 Grizzly
If I read the post of the ‘ battery expert’ correctly what he mentioned was about the A123 batteries not about Li-ion batteries in general.I think at least a few honest posters here thought after all he/she was not a liar/hot air. I think we have another better hot air battery expert here
I am also one who expressed concern about the life of Li-ion battery earlier . I still believe the real proof of the life of the battery will come only after its use in production cars.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Statik:
I brought this up the last time but are you NOW ready to apply your same level of skepticism (which is very valuable) to the i-Miev that you apply to the Volt?
Its gone from $18,000 to $37,000 without Japanese government subsidies, the quick charge feature isn’t apparently there, and you still can’t walk into a dealership and buy one, and its at the same level of distribution that GM’s fuel cell hydrogen cars are in. (Project Driveway)
And it still looks small and ugly
July 13th, 2008 at 11:28 am
#49 DaveB
If the 100 mile range is what you need, great. The iMiEV is for you and, I am sure, many others. It should be an excellent 2nd car, or primary vehicle if you rent a longer range vehicle when needed. However, you may want to wait for more details - price obviously, tax breaks and product reviews.
For example, the 47 kW (64 hp) seems a bit low and may limit acceleration and energy re-capture during regenerative braking. Life cycle information on the battery pack should give you an indication of when you will need to replace the battery pack, hopefully at a much cheaper price than now. The slow (14 hour) recharge needs to be clarified. It may indicate a battery-based limit on acceleration and regenerative braking. A battery pack with robust power and life cycle capability would allow the iMiEV to expand its target market to include buyers with lower range requirement by the use of a smaller battery pack at a more affordable price.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:29 am
#41 jabroni makes a most important observation. The same 16 kW battery gets 250% more range/charge while carrying the same number of people.
This is not a car designed to sell in America … or Canada … or Russia. But it could sell quite well in Japan, the EU, and most of Asia for that matter.
Want to sell it in America (or Canada, etc.)? Slap on a small engine as a range extender (not so hard to do) or wait to see if a quick charge station infrastructure starts to emerge in the US. Meanwhile build experience in 10,000/yr volumes aimed at particular markets.
Price? Get volume up and price will come down. This is priced for the Japanese market.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:34 am
#54 Vinayababu
“If you could provide a 220V 15 Amp outlet from home using a step up transformer ,full battery recharging will take place in 7 hours, not to mention the possibility of a 30 minute quick charge to 80% from a 400v quick charge facility out side as mentioned in # 46″
—————————————————————————–
You really are unlikely to use a step up transformer to produce 220V from your 110V line. You could, but here are a couple things to consider:
1) You need 15 Amps at 220V. Most US homes have standard 110V, 15Amp and also 110V, 20Amp available in normal outlets. You may have a larger size (amperage) outlet, but these would usually be 220V outlets (Like I said in post #46) for special appliances. So in your typical garage you probably have 110V/15amps outlets, so if you installed a step-up transformer, you could get the 220V easily enough, but you will only get approx. 7.5 amps. The issue is power, and at 110V/15amps you get about 110X15 = 1650 Watts, so at 220V, you would have 1650W/220V = 7.5 amps.
2) You already have 220V at your circuit panel. So, what you would need would be for someone to wire a 220V, 15 amp service to your garage. You could add a 110V, 30 amp service, and then put in your step up transformer, but this would be crazy, since you need to spend more for copper (30 amps vs. 15 amps), and then you get to buy an expensive transformer, and also you lose efficiency for the transformer.
So, bottom line would be, have an electrician wire in a 220V, 15 amp service.
Oh yeah, your not going to get a 400V, 3-phase wired to your home without a lot of cash. This is a typical industrial service, and you wont find your average home owner with 3-phase (In the US, we have 220V, and usually a 100 or 200 amp service, but some may have different amperage rating). BUT, if you work in an industrial industry, maybe you could sweet talk your company to install some 400V, 3-phase stations in the parking lot. Maybe use the “green” card to convince them.
The beauty of 3-phase ac, is in running 3-phase motors. Your efficiency is greatly increased if you run an equivalent HP, 3-phase motor, over your typical commercial single-phase motors. So all the motors in your house (fridge, freezer, HVAC fan, AC compressor) are single phase, and very inefficient. You could convert all your house to 3-phase, and then replace all your appliances with 3-phase motors, but good luck and I hope you have a pile of cash laying around.
Ok, my fingers hurt!
Bye.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:44 am
The iMiEV looks pretty good to me except for the price. I don’t see myself running out to purchase one at that price level. For a commuter BEV the price should be a lot closer to $20,000 to make it a real seller.
The Volt has nothing to fear from this car at this price. I suspect it will be lower by the time it reaches the U.S. in 2011. I am guessing at 2011 the same way we are guessing about the U.S. version’s price.
Let’s hope it does real good at a much lower price. We need it and the Volt plus a lot more BEV, PHEV, EREV and whatever to get us off oil.
All I have to say is: Go GM and Go, Go, Go Volt.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:49 am
#50 GM Volt Fan
In the nascent Volt vs Prius debate, one thing that has been overlooked as an inherent advantage of a Volt (a series hybrid) is that the power rating of its battery pack and its electric motor is larger than that of a Prius (a parallel hybrid). All other things being equal, a more powerful motor and battery pack implies the re-capture of more kinetic energy during regenerative braking. Specifically, the Volt has a 120 kW motor and the 2008 Prius has a 50 kW motor.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I know this is off topic, but the production version exterior of the Volt is about to be unveiled. I just came across this picture of what might be a future Honda Civic believe it or not. It looks similar to the Volt photos we’ve seen so far.
http://www.autospies.com/news/photo.aspx?photoId=29248&galleryId=1281
I wouldn’t mind at all if GM did the front end similar to this one … except for maybe the headlights. I’d try to make them look a bit more rounded like on the 2009 Mazda6 MPS:
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/04/car_photo_258126_25_450op.jpg
July 13th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
There is some coverage of the Volt and its prospects in today’s Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/article/459290
July 13th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
#60 NorthernPiker
I wonder what difference this would make? I guess you would need to know what the peak and average regen power output is for the vehicles.
But the motor ratings are also the full load output ratings and will have overload ratings. Probably between 120 - 150%, maybe higher?
Interesting to understand this concept, any experts out there? (be sure not to call yourself an expert though, as you may be the target of the next article :))
Also, what impact would using capacitors storage on the regen process have? The capacitors would be the best fit for this application, since they can store energy spikes, and no where nearly bandwidth limited as a motor/battery combination.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Japanese Imiev buyer rebates from the government could be as high as 50%? If true the purchase price then becomes less than $20,000 (U.S.). A slightly larger Imiev for the U.S. market has been rumored. As a second town car Mitsubishi’s Imiev could be fun but GM’s E-REV platform (Volt), when it eventually appears, potentially has far more convenience.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
So, no one actually figured out that this car has a 220 volt charging option that takes 7 hours? I realize the obvious bias of the site, but that’s pretty sad to overlook and mislead people about.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
#65 Benjamin Jones
Not sure if your saying it does not have 220V charging option, our are you saying that no one posted this option?
Either way I think your mistaken. It does have a 220V option, and also quick charge option (3-phase, 400V). This is in several previous posts, including my own.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement?
July 13th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
GM Volt Fan@#61
Nice job of noticing the new Honda. It will be interesting to compare the cars once the Volt design is released. I like the Honda myself. Pretty nice looking car.
It wouldn’t be terribly surprising if a lot of these cars look similar. The physics of the design doesn’t change. I think Lutz said the Volt would have a drag coeffecient below the Prius (that’s 2.6 I think), but obviously not a lot lower like the Insigt (1.9). So something around the 2.5 or 2.4 range?
In any event, Honda is committed to small cars, all of which have to have decent aerodynamics to get reasonable mpg. Consequently, they have a long history of successfully balancing aesthetics and drag, so having the Volt resemble these designs wouldn’t be a bad thing.
July 13th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
One thing folks also have to remember is that there is a big market for pure battery EV’s in fleets like for post offices, meter readers, etc around the world where a 100 mile range may even be too much. The reason is not just fuel costs, but the significant reduction in maint. costs.
July 13th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Jeff M @68. Good point about the maintenance costs. Let’s not forget about the environmental impacts as well–although personally I could care less about the green aspects.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Where a BEV is otherwise satisfactory, that design also has the advantage of relative simplicity. Not so many things to build, install, adjust, keep operating. No radiator, no gas, no complex control system. Simplicity pays.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
#61 GM Volt Fan
Nice picture of the “future” Honda Civic. I would hope the Volt will be bigger than the Civic, more in line with the Honda Accord in size. The Civic and even the 2008 Chevy Malibu is a tight fit for a 6′ 2″ & over guy to get in the front seat or the back seat. It’s the low roof line that causes the trouble. I had no trouble at all getting into a 2008 Prius.
Front or back.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
#62 Bernie — thanks for the link to the excellent article in the Toronto newpaper
July 13th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I don’t think these folks are copying the Volt. I think they are ahead of them. These are not one off concept cars. There is something like 100 at utilities in Japan.
Here is another, from Subaru:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/subaru-electric-cars-r1e-g4e-new-york.php
July 13th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
GM Volt Fan # 61. Those are both sharp looking cars. If the Volt is similar, it should sell very nicely.
July 13th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
And an electric Mini Cooper:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/bmw-electric-mini-cooper-california.php
Also at the bottom of the page are links to a number of other electric cars. The Chinese are even in on it with some large BYD E6 Electric Cars.
I think by the time the Volt is out there will be lots of choice.
July 13th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
I’ve just come to the realization (I’m very slow with that 61 IQ)
that I don’t care who comes out with the BEV or EREV first. As long as they do come out. If one person buys the iMiEV, that is one person not using oil. All of these cars need to come out and the next few years will be very interesting indeed.
July 13th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Len #75. That electric Mini Cooper is very cool. The only thing I don’t like about it is this:
“BMW to Make Electric Mini. Only in California. Only 500 of Them.”
That above quote is complete crap and a total shame.
I’m on the opposite coast and have no chance whatsoever.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Looks good, I hope they sell them here. Mitsubishi has legendary good quality. I had a 1990 Mirage, Could put a sheet of plywood in the car with the hatch open, started out 42-44 mpg, after 230,000 miles was getting 36 mpg at 80 mph. I’d buy a Mitsubishi again. I sure hope the Volt gets to market first because I really want to buy american. Right now I wish I still had the Mirage. Been using the 800cc motorcycle recently with 47 mpg so I’m conserving as much as I’m able. I’ve been thinking of stealing the wifes vino, it gets 80 mpg, I’m just a bit scared of being hit by a cell phone talking idiot with the vino. You kind of have to hug the side of the road with the vino so the suv’s can blast past. Sure wish we had bike paths on our roads then the vino would be used daily by me untill I get my VOLT. Just had relatives drive from AK to CT with a prius 26 gallons one way.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I meant AR not AK.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
61. GM Volt Fan,
67. DonC,
71. N Riley,
74. Rashiid Amul,
etc.
That car is the Sports4 concept from Honda which was unveiled in 2005. It was the inspiration for the recently released TSX and European Accord. It has nothing to do with the Civic.
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/sports4/
So if it looks similar to the Volt, then GM is copying Honda
If you want to know more about the vehicle from Honda that the Volt will be competing with, look into the Global Small Hybrid from Honda. It will apparently be out 1st half 2009, get mid 50 MPG, and cost ~$18,000. For styling hints, take a look at the current FCX.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
#76 Rashiid Amul says: “I’ve just come to the realization (I’m very slow with that 61 IQ)
that I don’t care who comes out with the BEV or EREV first. As long as they do come out. If one person buys the iMiEV, that is one person not using oil. All of these cars need to come out and the next few years will be very interesting indeed.”
————————————————————————————–
Actually, for someone who claims to have a low IQ, your comments have been pretty much dead on.
The only thing I have to add to this comment is that electric cars need mass appeal to make a difference. Cars like the iMiEV reinforce many peoples’ perception that an electric car is not something they would want. In this way, the iMiEV could actually be harmful for getting more people off of oil. We need more mainstream electric cars like the Volt.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Jeff M@#68
Dave B@#69
Do you have studies or papers to back up the lower maintenance claims for EV vehicles? It’s logical enough. All I have found is a RAND study that says the maintenance costs would be 65% - 70% of the costs of an ICE vehicle.
I’m also not sure how significant this is given the ICE vehicles are very good these days.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
#81
The iMiEV would be perfect for me. I would have to remember to plug it in twice a week instead of every night with a VOLT
July 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
GXT@#80
Thanks for the clarification. I’m with Rashiid in that I welcome every high mileage vehicle to the market. If the goal is to enhance national security through oil demand destruction it matters not what company makes the car. The Volt is definitely a much better vehicle at getting us to our goal than these parallel hybrids, but they are much better than the average car. Bring them on.
Having said that, I think the price may be a little dicey. The people I know who have gotten a Prius paid in the high 20’s even though the base price is in the low 20’s. And given that the Prius has a wait list measured in months, I don’t know why Honda would be overly aggressive pricing its hybrid.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I just moved to a medium-sized midwestern town. I’d really have to work to put 40 miles on in a typical day, so if this car can merge into 65mph traffic, then it would work for my daily driving. (And my girlfriend has a Prius that she’d like to keep, which would be good for highway driving.)
I still want an electric sportwagon, though.
A bike might be the best choice for me during the summer, now, though.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
The more I read about EV cars and Extendend Range EV’s the more I want to throttle all the auto manufacturers. Everything is many years away AND everything is in numbers so low that it shouldn’t even count as the launch date AND the prices are always to high to make it economically justifiable without crunching numbers on a calculator.
Why don’t any of these companies realize that there is a large market for a simple, unoptimized, cheap, electric or electric/gasoline car and truck right now.
Can’t ANY of these idiots cut some tape and start rolling out vehicles within 6 months. With all the small conversion companies doing it I refuse to believe that GM or Ford or Honda can’t do it as well.
Ex. GM could take one of the closed down truck building, make the same darn truck except make it a conversion just like lionev.com does and sell the trucks NOW.
They could even make you buy your own batteries and use anything from lead acid to nimh to li-ion.
There is no reason this would not work other than bloated big company red tape. Just need someone with a little intestinal fortitude and fire inside to get it done and push it through.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
#55 Morgan
“Statik:I brought this up the last time but are you NOW ready to apply your same level of skepticism (which is very valuable) to the i-Miev that you apply to the Volt?”
“Its gone from $18,000 to $37,000 without Japanese government subsidies, the quick charge feature isn’t apparently there, and you still can’t walk into a dealership and buy one, and its at the same level of distribution that GM’s fuel cell hydrogen cars are in. (Project Driveway)”
Not so much skepticism I think you were shooting for out of me…more like negativism? And definitely I am on the verge. Actually, I believe it was you who first brought this link to the last thread…and you did truly ‘bummed’ me out, lol.
The low price that came out at around 24Kish (at the time of conversion) from the CEO’s mouth, the 18K was just conjecture. If a landed US price does indeed end up to the customer at 37K, I will be the first one to NOT buy one, 37K is ridiculous and make no sense in any universe. Much like I feel about a 45K Volt.
If the cheapest price to a customer is $37K in 3-4 years, then I totally feel used. That means ‘real’ adoption by the masses is still 10-15 years out, and we are just following some kind of ’boutique’ line of cars. A EV, R-REV, QT-REV, Plug-in Serial/Parallel, SXT-EV, whatever you want to call it, has to be at 25K or less before it has any meanful impact.
I will say I can’t fault Mitsu on delivery date still (”you still can’t walk into a dealership and buy one”) they have really gone to town getting this thing to market and are out a year ahead of schedule.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
#81, Dave G says, “The only thing I have to add to this comment is that electric cars need mass appeal to make a difference. Cars like the iMiEV reinforce many peoples’ perception that an electric car is not something they would want. In this way, the iMiEV could actually be harmful for getting more people off of oil. We need more mainstream electric cars like the Volt.”
———–
I hear you. But sometimes beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
Some people on this site favor function over looks. For others, the opposite. I am somewhere in the middle, I think.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Dave G; I disagree that cars like the iMiEV will reinforce many peoples’ perception that an electric car is not something they would want…. 1st I don’t agree the premise that there is a (negative) “perception” to reinforce… 2nd we’ve heard the same things about the Prius, that it was funny (or different) looking, and would turn others away from hybrids but just the opposite happened (even before $3 or $4 gas). I think part of it is that once enough early adopters own (or lease) them, their friends, family, and neighbors all get used to seeing them that they are familiar looking and no longer look out of place. I remember when SUV’s looked so different, and not only that, drove rough like a truck (since they were all built on truck platforms originally), that I didn’t think they would catch on, and we know where that went.
The biggest hurdle is getting the general public over the mind set that the range of a BEV is to be compared to the range of an ICEV, when it’s really comparing apples to oranges. A BEV really should be compared to a cell or cordless phone. You need to get used to plugging it in every (or every other) night.
A 100 mile range BEV if driven every day could take you 36,500 miles/year. Even if only driven Mon-Fri that’s 26,000 miles/year!
It sounds like these iMiEV’s have are quick charge capable… if enough of these and other BEV’s are on the road, I can see quick charge stations popping up, 1st in big urban areas (like LA, San Fran, etc), and farther out along major interstates. Sure witht this iMiEV you’d have to stop 2-3 times as often on a long distance trip as the Volt would, but from the comments in other threads, it sounds like lots of folks stop every 2 hours anyway for a bathroom break.
In any case, I still think pure BEV’s will be sold 1st and foremost as fleet vehicles, that will drop prices as the batteries become more of a commodity, and then hopefully better understanding by the general public and acceptance. Similiar to solar PV’s…. those newest most cost effective PV panel makers are completely ignoring the residential market, you can’t get them if you want them. Everything they make is going into commercial sites.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
#81 Dave G.
The only thing holding back people converting over too electric drive is the automakers not making any. Regardless of any negative impressions that are being put out by any of the car companies and stupid article by ignorant writers as long as demand outstrips supply the negative effects of these things are not manifested in adoption rates.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
#86 Omegaman66
The best chance for something very quick is the Poulsen. Basically it’s a battery pack running two hub motor. It should work as a retrofit on almost any car so we don’t have to wait forever to start cutting demand. It’s hardly perfect but it would definitely move the needle. How much so? We’ll have to wait for the testing but it should be good.
But to get something like this moving we need government involvement. If it were a priority we could do it quickly. I’m not necessarily a fan of big government but when you’re in a war it’s the only thing that works.
On the rebates, I wonder if we should rethink the program. Right now the idea is for a flat fee to be paid to the purchaser. A better program might be to pay the manufacturer based on a sliding scale of how many were shipped in a calendar year. The more you ship the more you get paid per ship.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
I would congratulate Mitsubishi on getting the car to market in 2009.
The numbers are disappointing but lend a sense of reality to GM’s pricing and ramp up schedule.
For the moment the diesels are our best bet(for those of us that live in countries with relaxed emissions standards)
Toyota have released their Corolla diesels in New Zealand, they are economic cars ar 5l/100km but they are also asking a premium for the diesel engine. New Zealand diesel is quite cheap but I do not expect that to last.
We have a convergence going on to $30,000 dollars US or there abouts
July 13th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Jeff M , #89
“Similiar to solar PV’s…. those newest most cost effective PV panel makers are completely ignoring the residential market, you can’t get them if you want them. Everything they make is going into commercial sites.”
———-
So true. And that really bites the big one.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
I am tired of the whining about price. GM will sell 70,000 volts at $45,000 with no problems. Maybe not to the people on this list, but there are plenty of people who spend way more than $45,000 for their cars. If GM can make 10,000 on each car, that would be 700 million, not chump change, and GM would be foolish not to make the profit off the early sales. If Mass manufacture can lower the cost over time, then GM can start reducing the price, but they are in business to make money.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Hercule #94,
Perhaps. But don’t forget the competition is right on their heals.
They may not be able to sell it that high.
Time will tell though. I can’t see a damn thing through this crystal ball.
I should have known better though. It was made in China.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
#46 JEC
Regarding 14 hour charge time. This can be halved by installing a 220V outlet in your garage. We already have 220V in our homes, our electric stoves and dryers use it today. The cost to install an outlet would probably be less than $1,000 (The Volt will have same issues). Also, they have the quick charge option, which can charge in 30 minutes. I don’t know if this would be an option for a homeowner, but most likely not, and would likely be very costly.
===============
If your electrical panel is located in the garage the max. cost for a 220 plug “below” the panel is $400. Electrical panels have knocks in the bottom and the electrican will not have to drill through studs for plug location.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
This has ‘nothing to do with the price of cheese,’ so I waited until this thread got a little long in the tooth before I posted. I just felt I need to post it somewhere. Please do not feel the need to comment on it as I do not want to ‘hijack’ the thread at all…
Merrill Lynch Q2 results are out this week (along with other big financials). However it is significant because there last round of capital raising from Merrill (after the CEO said they wouldn’t have to) guaranteed capital values. Meaning losses reported in quarter will force Merrill to sell other assests to offset, like its 20% of Bloomberg and part or all of the 48% of Blackrock, which is the the largest publicly traded U.S. asset management company. Merrill is expect to lose at least 5billion…but it could be much worse.
Reports like this, which trigger chain reactions, especially in the financial/big bank sector are scary as heck. The potential for things to get our of hand quickly is prevelant.
The fed has been out changing the rules/perception big time on government interventions the last 3-4 days. Even over the weekend they have been announcing steps to shore up mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, whose shares have plunged as losses from their mortgage holdings threatened their financial survival.
Why is this of interest? Maybe it isn’t, but I just wanted to point out that this is potential the ‘heaviest’ week of lifting the market has seen to date. If you are considering taking up a position in the market, you might want to wait a bit longer…at least until the end of the week.
BTW, Merrill losing Blackrock is akin to GM losing GMAC if that analogy helps.
Side note: As it relates to GM…not that much. Could further hurt their access to capital and/or share price if it really tugs on the market. But it affects us (Joe Public) individually quite a whole heck of alot if it goes bad. It is for that reason I brought it up only.
/please move along and continue with the thread as it was intended…apologies to Lyle
July 13th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I’m buying the first electric vehicle I can get my hands on! Hopefully it will be american made if not, oh well. Then our young soldiers can stop getting killed for retarded decisions and maybe come home.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
#61 GM Volt Fan
If the Volt ends up looking like your links instead of the Miev. I’ll wait for the Volt.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
#81 Dave G
The Miev to me is a utility car. Post office, Meter maid, City employee car. The “Smart” car type would probably buy it also, but the Average Joe will only want to drive something stylish unless gas hits $10/gallon.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
DonC regarding maint. costs of BEV’s vs. ICEV’s…
I was going to point you to my old standby “Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America” by Sherry Boschert, as I’m pretty sure there is some info in there regarding this subject… I just can’t find it in the index
I can point out the obvious things… with a BEV there are no oil (or oil filter) changes, no spark plug changes, no spark plug wires, no ignition coil(s), no distributor, no fuel injectors, no fuel filter, no air mass meter, no air filter, no O2 sensor to fail, no catalytic converter, no muffler, no exhaust pipes, no gas tank, no engine coolant or radiator or water pump or thermostat, no fan belt, no timing belt, fewer brake pad replacements and brake work (due to regen breaking), possibly no transmission (and fluid), no alternator, no valves, no pistons & rings, no rocker arms, no cam shaft, no fly wheel, no connecting rods, no crankshaft, doesn’t have lots of the gaskets and seals that often start leaking in older cars, no starter (and starter solinoid), none of the many hoses, no turbo charger (like on most Volvo’s), no flywheel, etc.
Keep in mind that the majority of things that fail in an ICEV are moving parts and others from wear and tear. A BEV with 70-90% fewer moving parts has that many fewer things likely to fail. It doesn’t mean a BEV is completely maint. free, you still have the same suspension systems, tires, friction brakes (though not doing all the breaking any longer), the AC, windshield wipers, power seats & locks, the electric motor (though those have a long history of being extremely reliable and most could last 10 car lifetimes), the potentiometer (which some ICEV’s now also use in place of direct linkage from gas pedal to the engine throttle), etc.
I know I’ve seen data from fleet operators that had some of the EV’s from the era of California’s ZEV mandate, I just don’t have it handy. Hopefully someone else has some links, and if I find any in the mean time I’ll try to follow up and post here.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
#34 canehdian.
Oops. Of course, I meant concept car. I must be too excited by all the talk about unveiling the production car. Good call.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
#88 Rashiid
#81, Dave G says, “The only thing I have to add to this comment is that electric cars need mass appeal to make a difference. Cars like the iMiEV reinforce many peoples’ perception that an electric car is not something they would want. In this way, the iMiEV could actually be harmful for getting more people off of oil. We need more mainstream electric cars like the Volt.”
———–
I hear you. But sometimes beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
Some people on this site favor function over looks. For others, the opposite. I am somewhere in the middle, I think.
==============
Rashiid, you mad man, I’ve posted with you long enough to know you want a stylish ride… Before you start going to the middle, wait until the Volt is unveiled to see what it looks like.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Brad G on the cost of installing a 220V plug below the breaker box in the garage for $400….
… and most of that $400 is labor (and possibly permit fees). I believe it’s about $50 in parts (breaker, outlet, outlet box, wire strain reliever, and a short length of the appropriate wire) and something I’d do myself.
Now if only the EEStor storage device becomes a reality that lives up the the hype (and pricing), putting in a quick charge setup could be feasible…. not that most folks would need to quick charge that often to justify the price.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Grizzly
Some sources show USA per capita income as about 33K, or less than Japan, about 35K, but neither the highest in the world.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
A couple of quotes from the Subaru article:
“The battery pack, originally developed in partnership with NEC Corporation, uses lithium manganese oxide spinel (LiMn2O4) as the cathode active material. The crystalline spinel structure makes the battery resistant to overcharging and provides high thermal stability. A 346V battery pack powers the 40kW drive motor, and can recharge to 80% capacity in 15 minutes.”
What I find interesting about this quote is that the LG Chem battery cathode description is very much the same. This is the first time I have felt positive about the LG Chem battery.
“FHI said it plans to have its electric cars down to around ¥2 million (US$17,500) apiece by 2012 or 2013. Mori said that by the mid-2010s, mass production will significantly decrease the cost of batteries, enabling electric cars to come down to below ¥1.5 million (US$13,100).”
Now we are starting to talk prices the average American can afford.
I noticed the fed has made cash availability to the investment houses like it does banks, and has already bailed out or approved the takeover of troubled mortgage houses. Where oh where is the much touted “free market”.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
GM (or any carmaker), has a lot to prove to the car buying public. Can an electric car really replace a normal car? Can it really ever be anything more than a tree-hugger’s glorified golf cart that can only sell in California?
With the Volt, they risk (with Tesla) replacing this stereotype with another: “Rich man’s plaything.” Even if this is so, I think it will be easier to overcome this perception, once prices do fall: “money talks.” And who wouldn’t want a “Rich man’s plaything,” on a budget, for their very own.
===
It seems to me that Lyle has a unique opportunity to capitalize on an emerging market need: Eventually, there will be a “Motor Trend” style magazine for Electric vehicles (maybe there already is one, in California). I could see such a mag arising from the topics and comments I read on this blog, though not specifically limited to a particular make.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
-Jackson
http://www.treehugger.com/cars_transportation/
they really do a fine job of keeping up with electric cars and hybrids.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
The iMiEV’s price will drop just before the competition starts to sell.
If it and I were on the “Price is Right”, I’d guess $28,945.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
#104 Jeff M
I agree that if you have your service panel installed in the garage, the cost will come down substantially. In the midwest the majority of homes have full basements, and the electrical panel is usually installed in the basement. But, I believe homes in the South usually don’t have a basement, so I assume the garage would be the logical location for the service panel.
Also, if you can do the work yourself, that is definitely the lions share of the cost.
Not that is that big of a difference, but I think $50 in parts would be insufficient, even if the service panel is located in your garage. You will want a GFCI, since you are in the garage and a definite possibility of electrocution exists. A 220V GFCI alone will cost you $75, and then you get to purchase the outlet and box and some 14/3 wire (of course you only need a few feet, but as I always find I dont have any lying around and end up buying 250′). Then it will probably get a little more pricey, because you now need to assemble the power cable that goes from the 220V outlet on the wall to that “special” outlet on the car. My guess is the mating connector to the car is going to be some special “idiot proofed” plug, which of course will be expensive (easily $100 or more…cause this won’t be an off the shelf connector).
Oh, and maybe you want an emergency disconnect in the garage, $$ cha-ching…cha-ching $$.
I always am amazed at how much it costs to wire in the simplest jobs. I always plan at least 2-3 trips to the hardware store to get that extra strain-relief, wire nut, or whatever. And unfortunately I am now driving an ICE and it sucks gas.
PS: I cannot help but think how frustrated I will be with my new all electric car, going on a family Vacation. I stop to “quick charge”,but find out that the lightning storm that went through just knocked out the power, and it should be back in 3-4 hours. The kids stare at me like I am the biggest idiot to walk the earth, AND there DS’s batteries are running low!!!!! HELP ME….I awaken in a sweat as I realize this is just a dream.
BUT, hopefully quick charge stations will have emergency backups, or at least I can pretend they do, so I can sleep at night.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Well I have held my tongue on this one. There is a lot going on here. A electric motor is a heck of a lot cheaper to produce than a gas engine. Ditch the tranny, cooling system, exhaust system and a few
other systems and the electric cars should be CHEAP! They will not be till the car companies get a grip on the batteries and all the other new systems. Sit back and watch it should be fun to watch them CHANGE! LOL JMHO
Take Care
Arch
July 13th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
http://www.evworld.com/ also does a fine job of for the past 10 years of following EV related news stories, but also energy issues as well.
In any case, regarding maint. costs of EV’s…. did find some info… it was Southern California Edison that I was thinking of… they had or still have a fleet of 320 Rav4-EV’s and did a focused study on 5 of them. Couldn’t find specific data on costs… the study focused instead on how long the NiMH batteries would last (they ran them over 100,000 miles and expect them to last 130-150,000), but the report does have the line:
“Not only are the EVs meeting the employees’ driving needs, they are also very reliable, with little routine maintenance required.”
The report can be found at:
http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf
July 13th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
http://www.evworld.com/ also does a fine job of for the past 10 years of following EV related news stories, but also energy issues as well.
In any case, regarding maint. costs of EV’s…. did find some info… it was Southern California Edison that I was thinking of… they had or still have a fleet of 320 Rav4-EV’s and did a focused study on 5 of them. Couldn’t find specific data on costs… the study focused instead on how long the NiMH batteries would last (they ran them over 100,000 miles and expect them to last 130-150,000), but the report does have the line:
“Not only are the EVs meeting the employees’ driving needs, they are also very reliable, with little routine maintenance required.”
The report (PDF) can be found at:
http://tinyurl.com/5rozmz
July 13th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Re: JEC… I assumed a regular (non-GFCI) breaker… as I’d have the car in the garage when charging so don’t have to worry about wet conditions. Ie. same as a dryer or a stove plug… neither of those are GFCI in any home I know.
Also you should check out home depot… they sell wire, including 14/3, by the foot (buying it by the 250′ box is usually cheaper per foot, but if you only need a small fraction of that length….)
Yea, a special outlet to match the charging cable for the vehicle could be more expensive, but that would also raise the cost of having a pro do it as well.
In any case, have to have an EV I want to buy be available to buy before I have to worry about it
July 13th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Grizzly (#31),
Yeah, I’ve linked to that article (which you feel is erroneous) a couple times. I think Joe has too. It’s a long article with many many examples and references, so it’s not really fair (IMHO) to classify