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Breaking: Production Chevy Volt to be Revealed in September!

July 7th, 2008 | Posted in: Design

Reuters has just published a report entitled "GM readies Volt unveiling to shift focus from crisis".

The report cites anonymous sources within GM as acknowledging that the production show-room ready version of the Chevy Volt will make its first public appearance in September.

It was specifically mentioned that the car will be finished in August and may debut at GMs 100 year anniversary celebration, the specific date of which is Septmeber 16th.

Another interesting fact told is than the Volt will apparently make an appearance in the action movie Transformers 2 set for release next summer.

Well it looks like we finally know just when we will see the car we all cant wait for, and its just 64 days away.

Source (Reuters )

Posted by: Lyle

183 Responses to “Breaking: Production Chevy Volt to be Revealed in September!”

Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Good news!

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stu Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

bring on the volt, and a tranforming volt at that, sweet.

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nasaman Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

What great news to come home to!*

*I’ve been away for about a week, in case anyone’s noticed

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Yeah Volt Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Yeah, Volt!!

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MrCynic Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

This is great news…… BUT, it reminds me of the movie Tucker where they didn’t have a final, working design and example before it was introduced to the public. As one who has lost tens of thousands in GM stock, you know what I’m hoping for. I hope it’s a go for the REAL Volt and not just a publicity maneuver. As usual, I’m cynical

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N Riley Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

Just be sure they introduce it in the U.S. first. Not in Paris or else where.

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N Riley Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Welcome back! I noticed you were absent, nasaman. Statik and Tagament kept things going for you. Now that you are back, maybe you could keep the lid on things and keep us on track.

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N Riley Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

MrCynic

That’s your name and you can’t help it. Just be cynical.

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RB Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Where is the 100 anniversay celebration going to be held?
Will VoltNation be meeting there?

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Great News! Now, when does Lyle get to try it out?

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Mike D Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Excellent news, however:

some say its to take attention away from the financial state of GM, but I do believe its a good idea to get people excited and more informed about the success of this technology.

Too often we hear: oh well the volt is just unproven technology, but in testing we’re hearing the batteries are exceeding design expectations. Generate excitement through this release in Sept, garner support for tax credits to overcome SHORT-TERM pricing problems [lack of mass production cost savings]. Ensure this car gets to market so we don’t have to pay a $550B oil tax to other countries!!!!

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Ash Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

I hope there will be another Volt Nation to boot!!

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Mark Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

A Volt as a Transformer? Nice!

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2Snowboard Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Anyone reading this post and being cynical needs their head examined. Coming out early in this gas price crisis to further beat the competition is just what GM needs.

Tying in with Transformers 2 is a brilliant marketing maneuver! Kudos to who ever thought up that idea. It makes perfect sense given their relationship in the 1st one, especially if its a major character in the story, and particuarly if the Volt character shares screen time Megan Fox when most eyes will be glued to the screen.

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omegaman66 Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Sorry didn’t notice you were absent. Who are you anyway? Are you new here? Check the FAQ before posting. hehe Just kidding. Welcome back!

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Brad G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

If the new Camaro transformer was named “Bumblebee” will the Volt transformer be named “Tazer”? Will he get his power from the “cube” or the “grid”? Hey it’s five o’clock and I’m brain dead…

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terryk Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

My guess is they will destroy it like they did all of the GTOs in the movie.

I want to see the VOLT DANG IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Koz Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

“Another interesting fact told is than the Volt will apparently make an appearance in the action movie Transformers 2 set for release next summer.”

That’s a great promotion. Next they need to make a pace car for NASCAR races or at least showcase at those events.

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Ben Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Statik, you win!

(see last thread’s comments)

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Vincent Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Shaaawing. Just in time for my Birthday.
Kick Ass GM.
NO PRIUS DNA Phaaleeese.
Transformer exposure did much for the new Camaro. Hopefully the Volt looks as close to the concept as the Camaro does.

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MrCynic Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:40 pm

2Snowboard…

Ouch, you really hurt my feelings
If you would have read my whole posting, you would see how pro-Volt I am. Cynical yes…but pro-Volt

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

I figured they would unveil the Volt prior to the Paris autoshow.

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Noah Nehm Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

If the Volt is going to be in the transformer movie, will it be a step-up or a step-down?

\Ba-dum-dum. Great to be here. Try the veal…

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Michael J. Walsh Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

WooHoo! Can’t come soon enough for my liking.

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R.V. Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Great news Lyle. High five.

Way to go GM, right on schedule, yes?

Early adopter standing by. Means we’ll have some new pics soon. Can hardly wait.

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noel park Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

And WHEN are we actually going to be able to get one? And WHAT are they going to do to keep the (leaky) boat afloat until then? The Beat in 2012? And how does THAT help?

I’m struggling to stay positive here guys. PLEASE give me something to work with.

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

Shocker of a article!

#19 Ben
“Statik, you win! (see last thread’s comments)”

Thanks for the plug.

I like how when a new thread is started, the ‘recapped’ content seems to get the ‘rose-colored glasses’ treatment.

/read the article

http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUKN0741637620080707?sp=true

Side note, what happened to the “production version” only being days away, like a month ago?

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Dinosaurus Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

I have been working on a Volt model using available design details. I’m sure the production Volt will be quite different but I’m giving it a shot anyway. Keep in mind it is a work-in-progress.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2628572467_6156b6cb41_b.jpg

More info…
http://silo3d.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100260#post100260

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

#3 Nasaman

Welcome back!

#28 Dinosaurus
That is some nice GUI your working there. Very nice.

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

#27 Statik

Thats me.

I feel I went over the line about the ‘rose-colored glasses’ treatment bit. It’s a fan site after all…it’s going to be like that.

My apologies. I was too slow to edit it down…please disregard.

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Bryan H Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

Question: Is Chevy dealers now taking in reservations for Volt now that it will start selling in September? I guess I will have to spend 8 dollars of gas to the dealership to find out tomorrow.

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Morgan Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

27 Statik:

As I recall the only thing about “days away” that was said was the production version would be at Paris. That left only a couple high profile events: 4th of July and GM Centennial to reveal the darn thing before Paris

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Dinosaurus Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

#29 Statik

Talking about the user interface for the modeling app I’m using? That’s a button UI that I did for Silo, helps me work quicker. Very customizable app.

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

#29 Dinosaurus.

Yes indeed. I dabble a little bit myself…clearly not to your level, but I’m jealous. Looks very user friendly.

You do some nice work.

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Grizzly Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

Dinosaurus #28

Great job on that rendering. That’s very close to what I’d imagined it would look like from the peek-a-boos I’ve seen. I wonder how many would complain if this is in fact close to what the prod. will look like?

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

#32 Morgan

“As I recall the only thing about “days away” that was said was the production version would be at Paris.”

I guess I was thinking of Wagoner at the annual meeting the first of June. He said, “the Chevy Volt is a go”, and “we intend to show a production version of the Chevy Volt publicly in the very near future, and we remain focused on our target of getting the Volt into Chevrolet showrooms by the end of 2010.”

I think alot of people thought that meant a few weeks…there was alot of speculation on the July 4th. Maybe “very near future” means different things to different people.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/03/gm-ceo-chevy-volt-is-a-go-production-schedule-approved-by-the-board-and-design-shown-publicly-in-the-very-near-future/

/shrug

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Dinosaurus Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

#34 Statik

I posted my model to the Design sub-forum so modeling discussion can be continued there without hijacking this thread. I’m also looking for feedback from anyone on design details.

As far as the Volt being revealed in Sept., I hope everyone keeps their expectations in check, it’s going to look like a car. I predict it’s going to be like an Apple product announcement, fevered hype before, disappointment (from the design side) after and eventually the product actually does better than expected, hopefully.

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Battery Expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

Please let GM show their battery testing results. Lithium battery life is dramatically affected by temperature, current, swing of charge/discharge. I have two A123 batteries in my hand, one tested at 30C constant temperature, one tested in a chamber where the temperature varies between 45C and 10C (linear temperature change and 10h each loop). You know what, the first only loses 10% after 1000 cycles while the second one loses 42%. Because it is very very expensive to keep large battery at constant and uniform temperature, GM can’t convince me that their battery (whether A123 or LG) can last 15 years. Their commitment is NOT sincere and the recent WSJ comment makes some sense to me. I can tell you that A123 battery perform very poorly below 0C while LG battery perform poorly >45C in terms of battery life. I have PhD in lithium battery materials and my advisor is a leading scientist in this field. I have tested batteries from all major companies and my first-hand experiences tells me it is extremely difficult to ensure 15y service life.

Recently I talk to Dr. G. Abbas of GM, who does not trust this at all, he told me people should and will have to tolerate the facts that battery won’t last 15 years and battery failure risks will always be there. A leading LBNL battery expert (Aussie) also said that there is no hope in lithium-ion battery powered vehicles. This is the main reason (range is another one) Honda does not do EV, and Toyota is extremely cautious about EV/PHEV. Both companies have lots of battery experts and they are constantly evaluating Li-ion battery, so they have real projection whether this will work or NOT.

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Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

#37 Dinosaurus

“#34 Statik: I posted my model to the Design sub-forum so modeling discussion can be continued there without hijacking this thread. I’m also looking for feedback from anyone on design details.”

Cool I’ll check it out and give me 2p, lol. Will be interesting to see how your model shakes down compared to the real thing.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

I hope the Volt wins an Oscar for best performance by an automobile.

Hey Volt – don’t get too “Hollywood” on us.

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Battery Expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

One more thing, to get an EV/PHEV battery, you need to put 100 batteries in series in order to get a voltage of 300-350V. When so many hooked in series, the weaker one tend to get even weaker and BMS has to work very hard to compensate for the loss of capacity in weaker cells or the weakest one get reverse polirization and fail, which may lead to overheat and fire, so the manufacturing is very demanding in order to ensure battery consistency.
Lyle, please do us a big favor and have GM address those issues, if they are really sincere, ask them to publicize the capacity loss afte extended mule testing. I sincerely hope they will succeed, but do not want to be duped!!!! They owe everyone here an explanation.

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Allen N Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

I think we need a countdown timer on the website!!

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Morgan Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

41 Battery Expert:

They owe you an explanation apparently. I don’t feel the need for one. I really don’t give a rip if the battery fails after 3 years as long as the warranty replaces it.

Thermal runaway is supposedly impossible for this battery chemistry as well. If your research data contradicts that then I would be publishing were I you.

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noel park Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

#30 Statik:

No need to apologize for the truth.

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Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

#41 Battery Expert says: “One more thing, to get an EV/PHEV battery, you need to put 100 batteries in series in order to get a voltage of 300-350V. When so many hooked in series, the weaker one tend to get even weaker and BMS…”
————————————————————————————–
I think I read something about this 6 months ago on this site. It had to do with battery pack management. I seem to remember separating cells into groups, or something like that. I didn’t bookmark it, but I’m pretty sure the pack suppliers are addressing this.

There’s tons of low level software (a.k.a. Firmware) all over the Volt. If anything delays the Volt, it will be Firmware, not the batteries.

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Joe Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

to Battery Expert

Do you think GM and partners are handing out the chemistry of their Volt batteries? I don’t think so. How you can evaluate those batteries without the actual composition is beyond me. Also, I think GM is saying the Volt battery will last 10 years,not 15 years.

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Vincent Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Battery Expert. I’m not concerned with a 15 year life cycle. I get new vehicles every 3. I’m sure 10 years is enough life for most clients.
Perhaps you should contact GM if you have contributions to make….being your an expert.
Can you post some of your experiments showing real world temperatures effecting the battery pack…with the same technology GM is using. How old is your data? Thanks for sharing any information you may have to help us better understand.

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noel park Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

#40 ThombDbhomb:

Funny you should mention it. I was just thinking that this is looking more and more like theater for the benefit of whoever is going to come up with the cash to prevent the implosion. We are sort of like extras, or maybe the Greek chorus, as in “Oh look at the buzz we are creating on the blog(s).

I am a loyal GM customer, and I devoutly hope that they succeed and survive. On the other hand, I am beginning to feel like the mythical donkey, and the Volt is the carrot hanging from the stick out in front of me. It sure looks good, but now matter how hard I try, I can never quite get to it.

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Joe Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

July 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
to Battery Expert

“One more thing, to get an EV/PHEV battery, you need to put 100 batteries in series in order to get a voltage of 300-350V.”

***************************************************

I’m surprise, as a battery expert, you would call a cell “a battery”. You should have said 100 cells in series in order to get a voltage of 300-350V.

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omegaman66 Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Battery Expert: Excellent post. Opens up a can of worms that we need some clarification on. Stuff that you would think would have come out by now if GM already knows.

My question or thought is that when GM says end of life that might actually be the batteries real end of life. We have assumed maybe incorrectly that the 40 mile range at end of life was still using the 50% range of the state of charge. It sounds more reasonable to think that maybe the end of life means you now are using 100% of the battery to get the 40 mile range.

GM any comment on this.

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Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

#48 noel park says: “I am a loyal GM customer, and I devoutly hope that they succeed and survive. On the other hand, I am beginning to feel like the mythical donkey, and the Volt is the carrot hanging from the stick out in front of me.”
————————————————————————————–
Personally, I have always found the idea of being loyal to a company a bit strange. This sort of goes against competition, free markets, capitalism, etc. Also, there is plenty of evidence that GM’s bean counters aren’t very loyal to their customers.

But having said this, I admire GM for sticking to their schedule on the Volt. They have said 2010, and it looks like they’re sticking to it. I would bet that many people are working long hours, so we should be thankful for that. Fall 2010 looks like the end of the carrot & stick scenario.

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AndyChuck Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

BatteryExpert — Doesn’t the Tesla roadster use the type of battery you describe? Is it subject to these same failures?

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Arch Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Well my brother sent me an email this morning. He said some high level GM dude on the west coast said they were having troubles with the batteries. I told him I had not heard about it. Now I have. He said it was on radio news. I have no idea what kind of station it was on. I
would suggest that each of you search for that kind of news. I have played this game before. Just because it gets said on TV, Radio or on this site it does not mean it is true.

Take Care
Arch

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Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

#38 Battery Expert says: “Lithium battery life is dramatically affected by temperature, current, swing of charge/discharge. I have two A123 batteries in my hand, one tested at 30C constant temperature, one tested in a chamber where the temperature varies between 45C and 10C (linear temperature change and 10h each loop). You know what, the first only loses 10% after 1000 cycles while the second one loses 42%.”
————————————————————————————–
I’m no battery expert, but I have heard that limiting the swing of the battery charge and discharge has a lot to do with battery life. Specifically, the Volt’s battery swings no lower than 30% SOC, and no higher than 80%. See this article from last summer for details:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/

Did your 1000 cycles test limit the swing similarly?

Also, remember that the Volt’s battery pack is liquid cooled, so I’m not sure if it will reach 45C that often.

Hope thie helps,
Dave

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Matt from Mich Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Arch #53

The “high level GM dude” was probably talking about the recent recall on the hybrid battereis used in the Vue, etc., but who knows…

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Grizzly Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

#55

I think you’re right. The batteries used in the Vue were Cobasys and the failure rate was high, it was discussed on this site.

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Nelson Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Better sooner than later. They should also begin to sell them as soon as possible. I don’t know if GM waits to sell vehicles only after a sizable inventory is accumulated, but the Volt should begin to move into the public’s hands as soon as it drives out of the plant. GM needs to use the Wii distribution method – make/deliver. I know it’s more economical to deliver in bulk but time is not on their side.

Go GM, go Volt !!!

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Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

#38 Battery Expert,

One more thing. GM has said the targeted 40 miles AER is for battery end of life. This means that you would probably get >40 miles AER with a new battery.

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Jason C Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Battery Expert

While your title is self proclaimed, I will not question it.

When people think about SECRET material, there really is very little that is out there and it is usually tied to a date (when a mission is, troop movements, trade secrets, etc.). It’s trade secrets I would be concerned with here. A lot of intel is gathered through “open sources” such as blogs and the internet and so I would be wary (if I were GM) about what is released and when.

I see no reason why GM or their battery suppliers need to provide us, or anyone else outside of this project with the specifics of what they are doing in the lab prior to the final release. This would be foolish and would only show their hand to other “interested” parties, allowing them to catch up. General information like “the batteries are doing better than we thought!” are good enough for the consumer. Nobody heard of the atomic bomb until after we destroyed a city with it. How long did it take before it fell into the hands of the Russians?

If you want to know more, go apply for a job at GM and submit yourself to a background check so you can have clearance to see that information and help make it a reality.

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Arch Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

#55 Matt

No they said the Volt batteries were having problems. Right now I do not believe it.I have run a couple of searches for
“GM Lithium battery” and I can not find a thing.

Take Care
Arch

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Dave G Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

#52 AndyChuck asks: “Doesn’t the Tesla roadster use the type of battery you describe? Is it subject to these same failures?”
————————————————————————————–
No, Tesla uses a standard Li/Ion chemistry, similar to laptops and cell phones. Note that laptops and cell phones generally don’t last anywhere near 10 years, so longevity is not as much of a concern for standard Li/Ion batteries.

By contrast, the Volt batteries from LG and A123 are in the Li/Ion class, but use a new and significantly different chemistry, which is safer, and longer lasting.

So all things being equal, the Tesla Roadster batteries would probably wear out sooner. However, with a 220 mile range, the number of charge/discharge cycles on a Tesla Roadster will be much less, so it might work out the same.

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Ty Harris Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

I look forward to seeing the new design. I saw an interview on TV where the GM Head-Honcho said that it will look nothing like the concept car, which was so un-aerodynamic that the drag was about equal with the car facing backwards or frontwards.

Now what will REALLY impress me is if GM manages to sell it for a price that the Average Joe can afford. Without that, this whole thing doesnt really amount to much does it? Hopefully that’s what the whole “multiple versions” thing is about.

Regarding Battery Expert’s conscerns, one would think that GM would have thought of all of these things BEFORE they committed publicly to absolutely, positively producing this vehicle ( albeit at an un-affordable price). I suspect that they have the batteries sorted, and that the LI batteries DO work, but I guess we’ll see.

Good point by Dave G. about liquid cooling.

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Arch Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

Just ran “Lithium battery problems” and “GM Lithium battery problems” and still not finding anything. Doing this on the net is sure a whole lot better than on the phone back in the 70s. Used to take us a week to put out a wildfire like this.

Lyle could you contact somebody you TRUST at GM and see what is going on? Then please let us know. Thanks!

Take Care
Arch

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eric cosimini Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

sweet, this’ll finally answer those questions that everyone’s been guessing on… wonder if it’ll have a solar roof.

hope it’s not just a malibu with a big battery taped to the hood…

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terryk Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

I don’t think demanding that GM do some ’splaining on the batteries is going to get us anywhere. They know what is needed and they can do it or not do it. I don’t see where they have to say squat to us about it. I don’t see where any one of us would bail out on the Volt because GM didn’t satisfy our curiosity either. We don’t run the show.

I do believe they have some serious challenges to work out in the batteries. If my experience with Li-Ion batteries is any indication I’m worried.

But I still want one!

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Koz Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

#38 Battery Expert

You have some valid concerns but I think GM has addressed those same concerns. I believe this has driven their decision to utilitize liquid temperature control. They may even need to immediately start the ICE or pre-heat the battery for very cold environments. I assume since you didn’t mention “how” you cycle the batteries, that you cycled them 0% – 100%. This makes a big difference in life when combined with heat. A123 makes power cells and energy cells which differ. Which did you test? Even so, the cells for GM may be different yet.

Strange that before Tesla and the Volt hit the scene, all Toyota would say is that the market did not want to plug-in vehicles when asked about plug-in hybrids. Strange, they wouldn’t have frustrated me and many, many others if the “real” reason was that Lithium Ion was just not practical for EV’s. It’s not hard to believe that Toyota felt that Lithium is not approriate for what has thus far been their version of an EV. What benefit did yesterday’s Li batteries have over a 2.3KWh NiMh that only utilizes micro-cycling? Other than specific energy advantages that are basically meaningless in this scale, I don’t know of any.

The Volt’s original battery criteria was for 10 years of life not 15. So, while 15 years is being mentioned some now, this would only be a pleasant surprise. For most people it would matter. 10 years is more than enough. What energy storage solutions do you think will be avaible to replace the battery in 2019 or 2018? Personally, I’ld rather have a 5 year battery and save a couple thousand dollars if it were an option.

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Joe OBrien Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

Sounds good, can’t wait to finally see it.

Has there ever been so much demand before by the masses for an upcoming automibile that anyone can remember?

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George K Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

#38 Battery Expert
“GM can’t convince me that their battery (whether A123 or LG) can last 15 years.”

GM is not saying that. Lyle toured the Volt battery lab and in a meeting with Lance Turner, he said to Lyle:

“He explained how GM needs to demonstrate that the packs will last 10 years/150,000miles and be able to get the 40 miles range at the end-of-life. Per Bob Lutz at Volt Nation, the packs might be able to reach 50 miles when they are new.”

http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/08/e-flexchevy-volt-battery-lab-tour-and-update/

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Kevin R Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

More info on CNN….

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0806/gallery.plugins/index.html?cnn=yes

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Grizzly Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

Battery Expert looks more and more like a fishing expedition from GM’s competition and you don’t even have to read between the lines!

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Battery Expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

To all people who questioned, here is my reply:
1). Both LiFePO4 and LiMn2O4 are subject to thermal ruun-away, but less likely than metal oxide (LiMO2) based cathode, less likely does not mean they won’t catch fire. The main advantage of those two materials is: they do not release oxygen under abuse, but they do provide lots of energy in short time, combining with air and flammable components, fire is possible, if you do not trust, go and best A123 M32, charge it and short it, you will see.
2). I am sure GM, A123/continental and LG took this seriously, and I am not saying there is no chance they can succeed, but it is very very hard, considering the liability issue in this country, you know what can happen why sth explode on live TV in LA.
3). Tesla is a joke, they put more than 6800 cells, no matter how good job they do, it is beyond the ability of BMS and please mark this post here: Something terrible like fire or explosion is going to happen in 3 years.
4). When the internal GM guy called G. Abbas Nazri doubts it, you know potentially there is a problem. Any battery guy at Tesla or GM, no matter how doubtful he/she can be, you better shut-up or you be jobless and sleep on the street.
5). I will post the capacity fading data in the next few days and will post it here.
6). The SOC swing is 50%, which means the battery total capacity is roughly 18-20 Kwh, it is going to be expensive and if the warranty is only 3 years, GM will file chapter 7 in 2012. Limiting the SOC swing to 50% will help the battery life, is than 2y, 5y, 10y or 15y remain to be seen.
7). I appreciate the enthusiasm of bloggers here, but lots of people are plain s**p*d.

One more thing: If GM can succeed, (I hope they will), when the battery has about 80% range of initial design, there is still big moneytary value in the battery, GM has to decide if they want to take it back by lowering the initial cost or sell the battery by including it into the car price.

As for disclosing the test result, I understand there could be a trade secret issue, but simply by revealing the capacity fading, your competitor may see advantage/disadvantage, but they will not learn the secret in terms of design, BMS, TMS, etc. As far as I can see, in the last Advanced Auto Batt 2 month ago, no company has ever tested their battery pack in a way that simulates normal driving, and there is a 50%(that is how I feel) of failure, so putting up so much c**p by GM is simply irresponsible and resulting backlash will kill them should they fail.

(Quote)
DaveP Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

RE: Battery Expert:

Well, I’m not a battery expert (Although I designed fuel delivery systems and the very, very tiny NiCd system that backed them up, but that was 20 years ago and stayed at a Holiday Inn express or something similar, once but I have to scratch my head and wonder about the purpose of the data being presented.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody out there live in an area that cycles between 45C (113F) and 10C (50F) every 10 hours? The US average daily temperature change is more like ~15C (~30F) each day, not 35C each day. I thought maybe a desert place like Las Vegas might do it, but no, it’s really closer to 15C daily changes as well (scroll down to the bottom):
http://www.city-data.com/city/Las-Vegas-Nevada.html
So, if the A123 loses only 10% after 1000 cycles if held at constant temperature, I’m in great shape!
http://www.city-data.com/city/Cupertino-California.html
Also, last I checked a day was more like 24 hours, rather than 10, but I have two little kids, I don’t really know, anymore.

Clearly this is accelerated testing data, at something like twice the temperature range (also toward the high temp range) and 2.4x time.

There’s too many variables to actually DO what I’m going to do, but I’m going to do it anyway just to prove a point. If I take a linear fit and if constant temp =10% degradation and 4.8x “stress” (neglecting that 45C is way over most maximum temps in the US) = 40% degradation then… Ooops, there’s not enough data to do anything like that. How about if I just take out the 2.4x time factor then, hmm, 16% degradation after 1000 cycles, maybe? What about the 2x temp variation? 13% after 1000 cycles? You’re all going “that doesn’t make any sense” because it doesn’t. The two points are so far outside “normal” that you have no idea where “normal” falls between them without more idea of the shape of the curve between the points. Linear? Logarithmic? Who knows, and it makes a big difference. Maybe the same or another battery expert would like to shed some light on accelerated life cycle and temperature testing of Li-Ion formulations and how it relates to actually expected temperatures and cycles.

Nevertheless, given the climate data, it doesn’t sound like keeping the batteries well under a 35C “daily” range would be all that hard. Just a big heatsink to keep them pegged to outside temperature… With water cooling I would think that would be a snap.

Oh, I see another post from battery expert just before mine (took a long time to write mine but I think it still applies

Battery Expert:
I’m glad you’ll post your data, I know we’d all love to see it. We like data! Thanks in advance

(Quote)
frankyB Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

Oh no, not 64 days…

Ok ok, I’ll wait….

(Quote)
Statik Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

This should probably go in the last thread about solar power, but it’s a little dead now:

“General Motors (NYSE:GM) is to build the world’s largest rooftop solar power station at its largest European factory, and is considering similar projects for its other 19 plants across the continent.

The US carmaker will announce on Tuesday that its Zaragoza factory in Spain, which produces about 500,000 cars a year, will be covered by 183,000 square metres of solar panels.

The investment is worth about €50m ($78.5m) and should provide the equivalent of about a quarter of the factory’s power needs at peak times.”

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto070720081743208771&referrer_id=yahoofinance

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o.jeff Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

BatteryExpert,

The battery packs do have a thermal management system. I believe all hybrid vehicles have thermal management systems on their packs. Not sure why you think this is a big deal.

As others have mentioned, we have heard there is considerable redundancy in the packs in order to reach the longevity specifications. And, the BMS is designed to treat the pack as gently as possible.

I suspect the BMS can detect and isolate a malfunctioning cell. Each cell will be instrumented. I think the cost and complexity of instrumentation becomes an issue with increasing number of cells, so I believe that is why GM requested smaller numbers of larger cells (as compared to Tesla).

Ultimately, it also becomes an economic and warranty cost question as well — if the Volt packs last 5-7 years and need to be replaced, can GM recycle the old packs and replace them on a cost effective basis? This is a bit of a gamble as I am sure GM hopes costs will go down as volume manufacturing is perfected.

(Quote)
Battery Expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

o.jeff

Of couurse it has a TMS and BMS, it is called reliability redundancy.

(Quote)
Law expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

#70 Grizzly – Watch out. Battery Expert may not be who you think he is. Perhaps by “battery”, Battery Expert means:

Battery: Under common law, battery is defined as “an unlawful application of force to the person of another, resulting in either bodily injury or an offensive touching.

Perhaps Battery Expert is just really, really good at mugging old people while beating them up a bit. You may want to keep your taser handy, just to be safe. And watch your back, this guy’s an expert.

Or he could be really, really good with batteries. You decide.
————————–
Personally, I can’t wait for “Everything Expert” to begin posting. He or she can tell us everything that will happen, right up to the Volt rollout date and the exact Volt price with dealer markup. Until then, I guess Statik continues to be our “Reality Check Expert”.

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George K Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

#74 Static

““General Motors (NYSE:GM) is to build the world’s largest rooftop solar power station at its largest European factory, and is considering similar projects for its other 19 plants across the continent.”

Great. Now, maybe they can discount the solar panel feature!

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Tim Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

I actually thought July 4th would of been a fantastic day to show the production Volt from a marketing standpoint.

(Quote)
Arch Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Well I see the scare folks are here. You all do what you want to. I have seen this before. Back in the 70s it was very effective . I do not think it will work as well now. I could be wrong. Do your own research and make up your mind. To be honest this kind of stuff KILLED us back in the 70s. Hang in there nobody said this would be easy. JMHO

Take Care
Arch

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

A little OT, but did anyone notice that the Chevy Beat was the 5th highest search topic on Yahoo today? Usually the top 10 are filled with TV/Movie stars etc. This shows the interest in a vehicle like this, if it were only available for sale.

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Arch Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

#70 Grizzly – Watch out. Battery Expert may not be who you think he is. Perhaps by “battery”, Battery Expert means:

Law

We know where you come from. I honestly think we have the tools to fight you this time. Spread the fear my friend. I think we can take you down this time. Yes I could be wrong but I have waited for a long time for another chance to fight you and your kind. I have not much to loose. Kids are gone and wife is dead. I do not have much to loose now. Hey GM is on my side this time. LOL

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andy Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

That is great news! I almost bought a new car this past weekend because I was beginning to doubt the day would ever come that I would see a real Volt. I will definitely hold off at least 64 days before buying anything else; hopefully the Volt will be so beautiful that I can put off the urge to buy another car for two more years.

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Cheese Ball Expert Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

I enjoyed reading this entire blog with the multiple discussions and some testy exchanges.

I figured I would self-proclaim early on my expertise, Law, to save anyone a need to reply.

I hope they reveal the look by September in the USA. I would like to hear more about the expected sticker price, battery life expectancy, battery exchange and/or disposal plans of GM, and of course, any expected production availability date. Let’s hope they reveal this information in September, too.

Be well.

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

#48 noel park

There seems to have been progress; we’ve got prototypes, commitment to produce, and nearly a production vehicle. Yes, we’re being played a bit. But the Volt will get here. You’ve been hoping for a long time now. Don’t get too discouraged. When I was a kid, many things were too far away. Somehow, they came and went. It’ll get here.

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Grizzly Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

#84

“Be well”

*** *** ***

Nice uuuuhhhh ….Tag-line ?….

(Quote)
LazP Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Do you guys honestly believe that some expert will post here about battery failure and identifies himself an expert. If he really had such explosive (pun) information why does he not help GM directly. I do not believe this poster. He also identifies a GM employee by name. This could easily be verified. There is no way GM would not have tested for this kind of stability. This is elementary stuff. GM would not expose itself this way. It makes no sense.

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:04 am

#71 Battery Expert
“I appreciate the enthusiasm of bloggers here, but lots of people are plain s**p*d.”

I admit ignorance on most things, but I don’t consider myself “plain s**p*d.” For example, I can tell what you are up to. You are a clever troll – I’ll give you that. If I am plain s**p*d, you seem to be extra special s**p*d.

Neener^3

#82 Arch

I haven’t seen that side of you before. I can’t tell if you are funny or scary. Either way, you are compelling.

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Kent Lue Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:17 am

This was on CNN.com. It shows 8 electric vehicles on its way!

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0806/gallery.plugins/index.html?cnn=yes

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RyanP Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:27 am

#31 Bryan H:
“Question: Is Chevy dealers now taking in reservations for Volt now that it will start selling in September? I guess I will have to spend 8 dollars of gas to the dealership to find out tomorrow.”

Don’t bother wasting the gas… I drove to the Chevrolet dealership on Saturday July 5th and asked about the Volt, and their reponse was — “What’s a Volt?”

F#@king disappointing if you ask me.

(Quote)
Anthony BC Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:54 am

Dinosaurus #28, nice work!

Transformers 2: Introducing VOLTRON !

Go GM, GO VOLT !!!

(Quote)
RyanP Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:03 am

#85 ThonbDbBhomb
“Don’t get too discouraged. When I was a kid, many things were too far away. Somehow, they came and went. It’ll get here.”

Yeah? Where’s my jet-pack? For that matter, where’s my frikkin’ total-solar-house that rotates???

(Quote)
RyanP Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:20 am

Lyle,
What you should do sometime, is download all this chatter, strip out the banal banter, keep the serious discussions, organise it all by date and time posted, because:

This site will someday be VERY HISTORIC. No I did not say histrionic.

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Jeff M Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:44 am

Don’t forget the recent EnerDel interview Lyle did… their packs are designed to be able to cycle 95% of capacity.

I had my last vehicle for 12 years, and my current vehicle 9 years (this October), so I am concerned about battery life….

…. I’m not a big fan of leasing, but if I were an early adopter, I’d consider it, either the whole vehicle, or the battery pack.

Mating supercapacitors with battery systems (as some I think are already doing or has been proposed) may be the key for current battery chemistries to to take some of the load off the battery….

(Quote)
David Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:49 am

RyanP & BryanH: Dudes! The production will be revealed in September, actually sold in late 2010. Gotta read the fine print.

(Quote)
Jeff M Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:52 am

Regarding “Battery Expert”… keep in mind they wrote “I have PhD in lithium battery materials and my advisor is a leading scientist in this field”

I’ve never heard of a PhD in lithium battery materials…. I could see maybe a thesis on the subject, but a whole PhD program on the subject? Googling that phrase doesn’t bring up anything except this thread on gm-volt.com…. also reference to “my advisor *is*” would seem to to indicate, assuming such a PhD program exists, that this person is a doctoral “student” and hasn’t yet got their doctorate.

Not saying this person is or isn’t legit, but like Grizzley, I see red flags. Maybe someone from Toyota?

(Quote)
Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 5:31 am

To battery expert,

“If you want to know more, go apply for a job at GM and submit yourself to a background check so you can have clearance to see that information and help make it a reality.”

**************************************************

Amen!

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Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 5:40 am

#
July 7th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Arch

“Well my brother sent me an email this morning. He said some high level GM dude on the west coast said they were having troubles with the batteries.”

************************************************

The West coast is very anti-GM so it would not surprise me. Most cars are from Asia and has very few American cars.

(Quote)
Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 5:46 am

to Nelson,

#
July 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Nelson

“Better sooner than later. They should also begin to sell them as soon as possible. I don’t know if GM waits to sell vehicles only after a sizable inventory is accumulated, but the Volt should begin to move into the public’s hands as soon as it drives out of the plant. GM needs to use the Wii distribution method – make/deliver. I know it’s more economical to deliver in bulk but time is not on their side

Go GM, go Volt !!!”

**********************************************

GM is not in the habit of holding cars after they’ve been assembled. Don’t worry!!

(Quote)
Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:04 am

to Battery Expert,

I’m not a battery expert and I doubt you are. You put down GM’s Volt batteries without even knowing what exact chemistry they are using. I think someone needs to tell you… you are a BS’er. Unless you work with the GM battery team, there’s no way you know anything what GM is using therefore, your test results are fictitious.

(Quote)
Estero Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:21 am

The battery packs do have a thermal management system — when the Volt is being operated. But, what about other times when the Volt is parked outside in the hot summer (90-110 F) or cold winter (-15 F). What affect will those (or even more extreme) conditions have on the battery life?

I don’t have a clue but perhaps some of you might.

(Quote)
Brad G Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:30 am

#100 Estero

This maybe the reason for the solar panel roof.

When GM said it would keep the interior of the car cool maybe they were talking about the battery pack and the interior cooling is a side benefit.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:49 am

I’m late to the party again.

This is great news. Now if they could only raise the price to $60K, we have a great car.

Sigh. I know. I know. Too negative

(Quote)
Dave B Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:16 am

Excellent! Wonder what is in store for Detroit? a BEV Volt????

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:17 am

Dinosaurus #28. Nice job on the graphic. Very sharp looking.
Can you change the guy to a hot looking woman?

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:33 am

#72 DaveP says: “Nevertheless, given the climate data, it doesn’t sound like keeping the batteries well under a 35C “daily” range would be all that hard. Just a big heatsink to keep them pegged to outside temperature… With water cooling I would think that would be a snap.”
————————————————————————————–
The Volt’s battery pack is liquid cooled. I would guess the liquid is like the coolant we use today in automobiles. Water cooling would present all sorts of problems.

(Quote)
mmcc Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:34 am

Sept 16 was the date I picked some time back on this blog… 100 year birthday party, no better time.

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:47 am

With regard to the posts from “Battery Expert”, I see no reason why this guy isn’t who he says he is.

Just because somebody questions how well something will work, doesn’t mean they are a troll from Toyota. If I were a Li/Ion battery expert, I would be really interested in the Volt, so I might be posting on this site.

I for one would like to hear more from Battery Expert.

Specifically, I would like to know how his test results might be affected by liquid cooled thermal management and limiting the swing between 30% and 80% SOC.

(Quote)
pavy Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:55 am

There are dealerships taking deposits I am a volt fan and work at a chevy delaership but they cannot give you any more information that this site does which is why I am here reading

(Quote)
MDDave Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:57 am

Can someone clarify what a “production, show-room ready version” actualy is? To me, that sounds like a version of the the car that has all of the aesthetic and mechanical qualities of the final car that you and I will be able to buy in 2.5 years. If that is the case, why will it take 2.5 more years to go in to actual production? Or is it just a shell that looks like the final production car, but missing all the important mechanical parts?

(Quote)
MDDave Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:59 am

pavy @ 108,

Are you sure there are dealerships taking deposits? That doesn’t sound right to me, but what do I know.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:10 am

109 MDDave

I think the infamous “anonymous sources” is to blame for the misrepresentation here. I believe what is being referenced is GM will be showing a representation of what the Volt will look like.

In no way could a ‘production show-room’ version be ready by September. Evident by the simple fact there is no selected battery supplier, and I’m sure thousands of internal pieces are yet to be flushed out.

Here is the quote in it’s natural habitat:

“The report cites anonymous sources within GM as acknowledging that the production show-room ready version of the Chevy Volt will make its first public appearance in September”

/just seeing the shell should be plenty enough to get people excited again about the project

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Statik # 111 says, “/just seeing the shell should be plenty enough to get people excited again about the project”

That is, of course, assuming the car looks good.

(Quote)
Kevin R Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:20 am

Re Battery Expert.

Sorry folks but if you call yourself a ‘battery expert’ and you are scientifically inclined and probably an engineer of some type, don’t you think that person would have basic middle school grammar and spelling nailed down???

Come’ on, I mean, an individual with those credentials would have to write reports, read data and make interpretations and analysis daily. This individual can’t write and it sounds like someone who doesn’t know the English language very well. That was my first clue….all the numbers and additional nonsense were just smoke-screens. Let’s all allow ‘battery expert’ to fade into the sunset on their own…..

On another note…can’t wait to see the Volt in September.

(Quote)
pavy Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Yes I am sure that “some” dealerships are taking deposits I do not know if it is appropriate to name mine in this forum but we have three deposits on Volts. I am told that we will not be getting to many on the first run but we are a large group so we will get a handful. Be mindful that small dealerships will not be getting any the first year. California and New York will most likely be getting the bulk so the rumour is.

As far as production show-room’ comment historically both ways are correct if they have a complete working version it will be there you will know because the hood and doors will be wide open. If they do just have the production shell it will be what it will look like albeit some minor changes with vender issues might occur. The shell will be closed up and set back on the platform so as to minimize close ups. Since this is the big 100th part my best guess is that the GM top dogs are pushing for a real working model to be on display.

(Quote)
Murray Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:24 am

Great, cant wait to see what they will show us in Sept…

I’ve contacted some local GM dealers where I am …. and narry a response have I recieved….although since then I’ve had to spend my money (sadly) ….so I’ll have to shut up for awhile now anyways.

Anyhoo…I have been impressed by our boy Statik on hitting the “what’s the next post going to be” sweepstakes….so much so that I thought maybe I’d give it a try…to which I will likely fail miserably but still its all in fun..

How about this one? GM installing solar panels on their assembly plants not just their cars (in Europe)…

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINL0850661020080708?rpc=44

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Dave G Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:27 am

#71 Battery Expert:

Here are my detailed responses to your reply:

1). Both LiFePO4 and LiMn2O4 are subject to thermal run-away, but less likely than metal oxide (LiMO2) based cathode, less likely does not mean they won’t catch fire. The main advantage of those two materials is: they do not release oxygen under abuse, but they do provide lots of energy in short time, combining with air and flammable components, fire is possible, if you do not trust, go and best A123 M32, charge it and short it, you will see.
————————————————————————————–
Response: With liquid cooling, there should be no air or flammable components around the cell. Air can enter if the pack is punctured in an accident, but given the location of the pack, this would be a catastrophic accident. Note that conventional gas engine cars can also explode or catch fire in catastrophic accidents.

2). I am sure GM, A123/continental and LG took this seriously, and I am not saying there is no chance they can succeed, but it is very very hard, considering the liability issue in this country, you know what can happen why sth explode on live TV in LA.
————————————————————————————–
Response: The GM pack design seems fairly conservative to me. Liquid cooling, redundancy groups, robust BMS firmware.

3). Tesla is a joke, they put more than 6800 cells, no matter how good job they do, it is beyond the ability of BMS and please mark this post here: Something terrible like fire or explosion is going to happen in 3 years.
————————————————————————————–
Response: This is possible, but remember that the Roadster more of a show car for the rich, so it becomes less likely at these low sales volumes. Also, Tesla’s mechanical pack design is said to isolate each cell’s explosion from adjacent cells.

4). When the internal GM guy called G. Abbas Nazri doubts it, you know potentially there is a problem. Any battery guy at Tesla or GM, no matter how doubtful he/she can be, you better shut-up or you be jobless and sleep on the street.
————————————————————————————
Response: I googled for G. Abbas Nazri concerns, but couldn’t find anything. Do you have a link?

5). I will post the capacity fading data in the next few days and will post it here.
————————————————————————————-
Response: Yes, please do. I’ll be watching for it.

6). The SOC swing is 50%, which means the battery total capacity is roughly 18-20 Kwh, it is going to be expensive and if the warranty is only 3 years, GM will file chapter 7 in 2012. Limiting the SOC swing to 50% will help the battery life, is than 2y, 5y, 10y or 15y remain to be seen.
————————————————————————————-
Response: GM has stated the pack will be 16KWh, and should provide 40 miles of all electric range (AER) at end of life (10 years or 150,000 miles). The swing will be limited between 30% and 80% SOC. I’m not a GM fanboy, but I sure hope they don’t go bankrupt.

7). I appreciate the enthusiasm of bloggers here, but lots of people are plain s**p*d.
————————————————————————————-
Response: Everyone is s**p*d about something. This concept keeps me humble.

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:51 am

#92 RyanP
“Lyle, What you should do sometime, is download all this chatter, strip out the banal banter, keep the serious discussions,…”

If you are serious, then you shouldn’t precede that thought with the banal banter of your comment #91. Lead by example.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Lyle purposefully established this blog for enthusiasts. He wants to demonstrate to GM the pent up demand for a car such as the Volt. He encourages discussion on all levels. He previously stated that he didn’t want to act as a sensor. Increased comment activity is in line with Lyle’s vision.

If you only want the more serious discussions, try the library instead of the pub.

(Quote)
Ray Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:53 am

September eh? … bout time….you know that would be an ideal time to ship one to me here in Central Alberta, Canada as we will be going into “indian summer” and then on to the big deep freeze of winter. What a perfect way to test the car for the “battery” issues being discussed above..

GM call me…. and let me know when it will arrive.

Ray

(Quote)
Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:01 am

#112 Rashiid

“Statik # 111 says, “/just seeing the shell should be plenty enough to get people excited again about the project”
–That is, of course, assuming the car looks good.

I said “people excited,” not necessarily me, lol.

My measuring stick is still the concept, regardless of how much GM massages the public up. That is what I saw at the show. That is what got me to come here…and thats what I signed up for when I put my name down on the wait list. I’m not saying it can’t be different, stuff happens…but it still has to have the ’sweet ride’ factor.

A good bulk of people would fain excitement and happiness on this site regardless of GM eventually rolls out. If they just pushed out a Malibu or Cobalt and slapped a Volt sticker on it, some people would still defend it.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:05 am

More info for our resident “Battery Expert”.

The attached link describes the driving cycle for which they (GM) are testing the batteries.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/gm-provides-sna.html#more

This link contains interviews with GM engineers on the Volt development, and specifically on the 2-year battery testing process.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/07/the-april-2008-chevy-volt-update-a-visit-to-the-battery-systems/

It will be interesting to find out why GM is expending so much time and effort into the Volt if it is a hopeless effort.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:08 am

Statik, #119. What show? Voltnation?

Yes, I hear you. I love the concept as well. Finally an EV that looked really cool. I will truly miss the concept and don’t think anything they produce will come close to the beauty of it. IMHO.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:10 am

Mike D@#11

“Ensure this car gets to market so we don’t have to pay a $550B oil tax to other countries!!!!”

Good point. But trading and payment transfers are not necessarily bad things. What makes this so bad is that it’s a wealth transfer to bad actors like Iran. There has been talk about how s**p*d people can be about battery technology. How about policies that on the one hand label Iran as a huge threat to our peace and security and on the other do everything to assure that we fund those threats with massive transfers of our assets?

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:12 am

There are a lot of experts here. Law Expert, Battery Expert, Cheese Ball Expert. I am an expert too. I am a Hot Air Expert.
But I specialize on blowing Hot Air.

(Quote)
Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am

#121 Rashiid

“Statik, #119. What show? Voltnation?”

No, the autoshow. I was doing the ‘left coast’ thing during ‘Volt Nation,’ not that I would have made that anyway. That is quite a distance for the payoff…if they were taking checks I might have made more of a effort.

I’m still pulling for the next big ’shin-dig’ at the Detroit autoshow this year, (thats only 4 hours or so away from me), that is going to be ‘THE show’ for EVs next season.

(Quote)
Gsned57 Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am

With all these experts, are there any experts on Brown’s Gas conversion kits for an ICE car? has anyone tried doing one of those hydrogen conversion kits? Sounds like a lot of BS to me but I figure somebody has gotta know something about it. As far as I can see, your car battery is used to create small amounts of hydrogen using electrolysis. The hydrogen created is used to maximize the efficiency of your engine (I don’t belive you are burning the hydrogen). Anyways, has anyone looked into this or even tried it yet?

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Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:52 am

to #109

#
July 8th, 2008 at 7:57 am
MDDave

Can someone clarify what a “production, show-room ready version” actualy is? To me, that sounds like a version of the the car that has all of the aesthetic and mechanical qualities of the final car that you and I will be able to buy in 2.5 years. If that is the case, why will it take 2.5 more years to go in to actual production? Or is it just a shell that looks like the final production car, but missing all the important mechanical parts?
*****************************************************

It is pretty much what the car will be in 2010. Of course, it gets refined as time goes by.
Getting the infrastructure done on the factory floor for a new type of car, takes a long time. Many new type of machinery to automate the line have to be built. More than likely, at this time, those machines have not been delivered, yet.
How do I know? I worked for GM all my life and have been part of the process many times over.

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voltman Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:57 am

The volt transformer will be a silent “stealth” recon vehicle, electric power of course.

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:59 am

It sounds as though we are being bombarded by experts today. I especially liked the “hot air expert”, Rashiid. I think we have several of those on board. I am not too sure about our “battery expert”. He (assuming here) sounds a little fishy to me. How can he be testing batteries not even available to the public? I think he might be the real “hot air expert” here, Rashiid. Sorry, but he seems to fit the bill much more than you.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:09 am

N. Riley # 128 says, “I think he might be the real “hot air expert” here, Rashiid. Sorry, but he seems to fit the bill much more than you.”

lol Thanks. I guess no matter how good we think we are, there is always someone better.

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:10 am

As the Volt nears each deadline, we will be told by some that it can’t work, that GM doesn’t have enough money, that the batteries won’t be delivered in time, that blah, blah, blah and on and on. The naysayers will be out in force to voice their version of fear. A lot of people have much riding on the failure of the Chevy Volt. They will be pressing their case and trying to instill doubt into our minds. We have to be vigilant and not forget our common goal of ridding ourselves of middle eastern oil sheiks.

Keep your eyes on the ball and keep believing in a better future. Even if the Volt is not all the success we have hoped for, it will be a big improvement over what we have now. It will be a step in the right direction.

The person who said he almost purchased a new car this weekend but could wait to see what the Volt will look like should go ahead and buy the new car. It is a long time yet before most of us will be able to purchase a Volt. That is plenty of time to buy a new Malibu, for instance, and be enjoying the 32 mpg. I drove a new Malibu with a 4 cylinder engine and automatic. It was great. And 32 mpg (with up to 38 mpg) is not bad at this time. I am certainly considering it as my next car. I will buy a Volt, but I still need to think about now and the intervening years until I can purchase that new Volt.

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noel park Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am

#81 Grizzly:

Yeah, right.

#86 Grizzly:

“Tag-line?” Very good!

#101 Brad G:

Sounds like a good idea to me.

#102 Rashiid Amul:

Warning! Warning! Burnout approaching!

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am

That 2008 Malibu had a 2.4L 4 cylinder engine and I could not tell that it was not a bigger engine. It had great response for normal driving. It did not “press” it too much, but it had a smooth take off and ride. I certainly would recommend it to anyone looking for a new car. There are many others on the market to choose from, but why don’t we try our best to buy a Chevrolet and help GM at the same time. Let’s start a “Buy American” trend and “See the USA in Your Chevrolet” trend. It will be a way to help the Volt program by putting our money where our mouths are right now. Why give the Japanese or Germans our new car or truck purchase money. Let’s give it to someone that will help the Volt get to market. Let’s give it to GM and get a darn good car or truck in the bargain. (And I don’t work for GM or any dealers, etc.)

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Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:20 am

#116 Murray

I’m sorry to do this to you, but check out my post at #74

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Jackson Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:30 am

DaveP (#72):

Take care when you pooh pooh rapid temperature swings in battery testing. You may be putting down the GM battery tests. There is no way to hook up one of these things to actually see if it will last ten years (in less than ten years, that is). Such unrealistic “compressed” cycle-testing is probably as close as they can come. Until 2020 AD has come and gone, no one can say, for sure, that the first edition Volt battery can last ten years. No. One.

The good news is that by then, no one will care. There will have been a decade of actual battery experience, and continuing research to improve them.

It is just possible that “battery expert” has some valid points which we don’t want to hear; but if so, this isn’t the apocalypse he predicts. If the original Volt batteries manage to last substantially longer than the warranty period; say, five – six years, the batteries available for replacements will be of a much improved design; if only because of the continuing research into Li-ion chemistry which will have gone on since 2010; and cheaper, due to the increased economies of scale. (And also because someone, namely GM, took the plunge and kick-started this whole large-Lithium-battery thing off).

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Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:32 am

#134 Statik

Me.

Side note: I have retired from “calling threads.” I merely ‘post things of interest,’ lol.

Lyle has to pace the flow of information so that the news is in constant flow and people have time to discuss the topic…so he is at a disadvantage, and it’s not really fair to him for me to be all awesome and whatnot.

(=

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Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:32 am

#113 N Riley —You are a wise man.
If we lose the auto industry to foreigners, I think this country is in big trouble. I do not advocate “buy American” just for the sake of buying American. I say buy American because many of our cars are not just as good, but are better. I’ve driven the 2008 Toyota Camry and the 2008 Honda Accord and I can honestly say the 2008 Malibu is a better car.

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Järn Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:37 am

#66 Koz
” I believe this has driven their decision to utilities liquid temperature control. They may even need to immediately start the ICE or pre-heat the battery for very cold environments.”
——————————-

I hope that the nightly plug-in for charging the batteries will also power up the battery temperature control system.
I can also imagine a computer screen menu where the on board computer would display recommended temperature range and allow the user to override the recommended temperature (within a certain range). The override function would allow people to spend a little more or less money to extend the useful life of the battery.

(I design computer systems for a living…)

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Thom Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:41 am

Random trivia: Volt was the name of a Transformers Generation 2 Decepticon (bad guy) introduced by Marvel Comics in 1994 that transforms into a Ford coup hotrod. Volt later did switch sides to become an Autobot (good guy).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt_(Transformers)
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Volt

This link has a picture of the toy that was released. Apparently was cool at the time because it incorporated a laser diode and lots of articulating joints. Was a little bit after my time — I had the G1 toys as a kid.

http://www.tfu.info/1994/Autobot/Volt/volt.htm

Voltron, of course, is a different franchise. Both originated in Japan. Transformers first originated as a toy line that crossed over into cartoons, comic books and movies. Voltron began as a cartoon.

My God – How many different Thom’s are there on this site????

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Joe Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 10:47 am

With technology so new and unknown, I seriously doubt GM would provide an override function to allow owners of the Volt with a software control to vary the useful life of the battery. The warranty would not allow that to happen.

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tom harwick Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:00 am

“”"GM can’t convince me that their battery (whether A123 or LG) can last 15 years. Their commitment is NOT sincere and the recent WSJ comment makes some sense to me. I can tell you that A123 battery perform very poorly below 0C while LG battery perform poorly >45C in terms of battery life. “”"”

To be a success in the market place, a car does not have to last 15 years.

If a PHEV battery does not do well below 32 F (0 C), there are ways of dealing with that. While at home, it will be plugged in, so there will be plenty of cheap grid power to keep it warm. While driving, it will be working, so it should be able to keep warm using its own waste heat. While parked, it does not need to be warm. So what might be needed is a heater with a timer to warm up the battery starting a little while before you plan to start to drive home, This will use some charge, but does not invalidate the idea of a PHEV. And it would only be used when it is below freezing out, not every cycle.

A battery which cannot stand termparature above 113 F needs to be aircooled while in motion. It would not be a good choice in parts of the country where daytime highs routinely exceed 113 F, but this is a very small part of the US.

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Murray Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:04 am

RE: my lame attempt at getting “the jump” (from my #116)

To this I can only say “Doh !!! ”

….Mr. Statik sir…. I am humbled ….

I need to know my limitations, I will fall victim to the fact that I constantly pop in and out of this addictive blog and will miss some posts…

have you posted anything about GM stating good sales figures in China? I probably missed that too )
I will refrain from posting a link its old news by now (from about 6:50am today)

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:08 am

N. Riley # 131 says, “As the Volt nears each deadline, we will be told by some that it can’t work, that GM doesn’t have enough money, that the batteries won’t be delivered in time, that blah, blah, blah and on and on. The naysayers will be out in force to voice their version of fear. A lot of people have much riding on the failure of the Chevy Volt. They will be pressing their case and trying to instill doubt into our minds.”

Yes, and this is BEFORE the Volt comes out. Just wait until after. My gosh will the car be slammed by these same people. This is exactly why the engineers need to make it “spot on”. Absolutely perfect. And believe me, I know something about being absolutely perfect. It’s impossible. I have been trying of years to be and I’m only 99.9 percent there (unless you ask my wife. Then I’m only .1 percent there)

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DonC Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am

BillR@121

Nice article. Are you thinking that the picture of the wind tunnel test suggests they’re going to need to do a little work on that rear turbulence?

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Statik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am

#142 Murray

Lol. No I didn’t post anything about China today…have at it.

(=

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RB Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am

#71 Battery Expert says “I appreciate the enthusiasm of bloggers here, but lots of people are plain s**p*d.”

Dear expert, I have read most everyone’s posts since the beginning of this blog, when Lyle was born and time began. With greatest respect, people who write here are not plain s**p*d, they are at least chocolate or strawberry s**p*d, and a few are even vanilla s**p*d, and I say this keeping in mind that vanilla is an exotic flavor that created a huge sensation in the US when it was discovered and first imported to the USA.

Thanks so much for your helping us to learn more about batteries. Considering how s**p*d we are, I guess we’ll all will try out a few and see for ourselves. It will be exciting for the neighbors and the fire department, which loves to go out and make new friends

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tom harwick Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am

“”"With all these experts, are there any experts on Brown’s Gas conversion kits for an ICE car? has anyone tried doing one of those hydrogen conversion kits? Sounds like a lot of BS to me but I figure somebody has gotta know something about it. “”"

It is very easy to construct and install a hydrogen generator under the hood of any car, using readily available hardware items and some simple tools. The car’s electrical system (battery/alternator) electrolyzes the water into a mixture of O2 and H2 which welders call Brown’s gas. The Brown’s gas is fed into the intake manifold, and mixed with the gas from the gas tank. Proponents claim one of two scenarios.

Scenario 1. The Browns gas provides all the engery you need to power your car, and you dont need to add any more gasoline. This is perpetual motion, and absurd on the face of it.

Scenario 2. A small amout of hydrogen mixed in with the gas improves the burn rate, giving you better gas milage. This is based on a misconception. What really happens is the fuel/air/H2 mixture can be combusted in the cylinder with a very lean ratio, 30:1. This is much leaner than any car runs today, and it is a fact of ICE engineering that this will significantly improve gas mileage.

All of that being said, if you install an H2 generator in your car, you will not see a noticeable improvement in gas milage for 3 reasons:

1. Your alternator does not put out enough wattage to make enough hydrogen to enable combustion at 30:1.
2. Even if it did, you have no way to reset your fuel air ration to 30:1, so the improved combustion properties will have no effect.
3. At a 30:1 ratio, if it really happened, your car would have great gas milage, but so little power you would hate driving it.

Dont take my word for it. Here is an easy to read debunking http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam2.shtml

PS…this crap is all over the web, and it is clear the proponents do not have a grasp of high school chemistry and physics, but they do seem to share the belief that “if its not true, they couldnt put it on the internet”.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am

Gosh RB #146, My IQ is so high (61), I never once considered that Battery Expert could be talking to me. Now I am terribly insulted.
I too have been following this site since the beginning and I didn’t think anyone was s**p*d. Dumb maybe, but not s**p*d. But that guy Rashiid Amul, now he is really dumb.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:58 am

#147 tom harwick, that was a very interesting. Thank you.

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Murray Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

ooo.. ooo….. ooo…

Um, OK, so I get to post an “item of interest”….albeit a bit off topic and a little late….but I’ve been given a chance and I’m taking it!

Thanks Statik for letting me have this one (from #142)……now that I think about it I see why you didnt post this “item of interest” as it sounds too positive….although I’m sure some negatives can be derived from the articles…
For example, China is buying more and more cars = driving demand for oil, driving prices for oil…. etc etc etc blah blah blah…..

anyhow….first post from earlier this AM when I frist saw the news:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/china_gm_ford.html

next post provides more details….
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN0828629320080708

Ok moving on…………..

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Paul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Don’t believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

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RB Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

#150 Murray Thank you for these links. It will be interesting to see for how long the Chinese government continues its increasingly expensive subsidy of gasoline prices.

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noel park Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

#133 N. Riley & #137 Joe:

I completely agree with both of you. That is exactly why I keep coming here.

#148 Rashiid Amul:

Hahaha – LOL – reminds me of an old saying I must have repeated 1000 times:

“I may be dumb but I’m not stupid.”

#151 Paul:

AMEN!

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omegaman66 Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

Don’t get depressed people. Even if “battery expert” is right. That only means my volt will go from 500 mpg, down to 250 mpg, down to 100 mpg and bottom out well into its future with a gas milage of todays prius.

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JEREMY Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

July 8th, 2008 at 12:54 am Anthony BC
Dinosaurus #28, nice work!

Transformers 2: Introducing VOLTRON !

Go GM, GO VOLT !!!
i lmao real hard when i heard that haha
i bet the volt bot will have electro magnet powers
bumble bee might turn into a volt? :O who knows
keep up the good work guys

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BillR Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

#144 DonC

I believe the final design for the Volt has been frozen, and the front end will be quite different from the concept, but the back end will be similar to the Volt concept vehicle.

See this previous article for more info.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/05/29/production-chevy-volt-to-have-a-cam-back-round-front-and-tapered-corners/

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Cheese Ball Expert Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

What kind of jumper cables would we need if the battery did die in an area away from a grid?

Or is that a cheesy question?

LOL, only getting back to the thread and having fun. Unless Battery Expert or Hot Air Expert want to chime in with an answer!

(No tag line for Grizzly’s sake)

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kent beuchert Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Personally, I would be skeptical about claims by Reuters or any media outlet. So far, this news has confused many of thos emedia outlets, who apparently believe tha the car WILL BE IN THE SHOWROOMS by September. It’s absolutely impossible to not confuse the media, no matter how simple the story is.
Today two media outlets each reported that the Volt is “being rushed into unveiling” because : 1) says because Toyota said they were going to put a solar panel of the roof of the Prius, while another gave another version : that GM was doing so to take the
focus off their slumping sales (as though Toyota sales weren’t slumping as well). A September unveiling isn’t exactly “rushing” and
its hard to see how an unveiling in September will take attention away from news stories in early July. It’s simply impossible for the media to not be confused. Or to not manufacture news items.

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Suggestion Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

A lot of research money and time seems to be exhausted on batteries to drive this great concept by batteries and diesel generated electric. When you look at the design of a diesel- electric locomotive, you see controls that govern the generated electric to capacitors and “ultra- capacitors” before going to electric drive motors. For the sake of saving GM and consumers money and delays being spent on leading edge battery technology, could we learn more from the success of diesel electric locomotives? Although the MPG wouldn’t be as awesome, surely we could see a leap above what is currently available? I think you would find it hard to argue that a diesel locomotive can out pull and go farther that any direct drive diesel big- rig out there on the same amount of diesel fuel! Surely we could stab the costly battery concepts in a 2nd gen Volt after the Prius and everyone else plays catch up?

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Rashiid,

Being 99.9% perfect is like me saying that I was wrong once when I thought I was wrong.

Wives have a different measurement set than we do.

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

Take it easy on Battery Expert, guys. He may actually know what he is talking about (although my doubt-o-meter is registering pretty high for him right about now). But, who knows he could be correct. Let him make his claims and publish his findings for us to review. We have a few pretty damn sharp guys (not counting myself among them, though) on this forum. If there are flaws in his analysis, they will see through it.

So, go ahead Battery Expert, do your best.

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

#148 Rashiid,

Have you ever heard the expression that “dumb people don’t know they are dumb and stupid people are too stupid to know they are stupid”? That expression fits all of us, I suppose. Or maybe I am just speaking for myself.

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Ty Harris Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Since we are announcing our areas of expertise, I specialize in driving to work every day and I have a PHD in being seriously p@%**ed-off every time I fill up my gas tank with 4.00/gallon gas. My contribution here will be to represent the needs and interests of the Average Joe who really wants and needs a Volt- or something like it- too, but who can’t afford to pay 50K for it. I represent the pent-up frustration of American consumers who are hungry for real change in terms of our nation’s energy and transportaion policies, and are getting nothing but hype and promises from the Automakers and from the politicians. If the volt is going to cost 40K-50K, then it really does amount to nothing more than a publicity stunt, because most people cant afford it. It needs to be affordable to matter!!!

My highly- valued expertise will be to keep my finger on the pulse of the working man, and to drag you guys back to reality when you start getting too excited about this whole thing. I’m glad I can be of service in this regard. You may all thank me now.

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Murray Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Thanks Ty …. well put

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N Riley Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

#163 Ty Harris

Well said, my man. A breath of fresh air is always good for us.

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Lars Hastrup Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Filled my Corvette up today – 9.09 a gallon here in Denmark !!

My next car WILL be electric

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JN2 Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

#166 Lars

$9.09 a gallon? Hey, move to the UK, it’s only $9.06 here

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kevin Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

YAH MAN THATS AWESOME. IF it is true then its like an extra birthday y gift for me My birthday is September 13th . Even if its not true i just hope Chevy gets those batteries right so they can prove all those nah sayers wrong and then we will really start to see heads turn.

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Grizzly Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:08 pm

Rashiid #143

“This is exactly why the engineers need to make it “spot on”. Absolutely perfect. And believe me, I know something about being absolutely perfect.”

*** *** ***

Rashiid,

Don’t let anyone make you believe this. You’ve stated, and we all know that nothing is perfect and the Volt won’t have to be either, it just has to steer clear of major problems, major HW problems, especially given the compressed development time. The initial Prius was anything but perfect, and at the time it was released one could argue that it wasn’t exactly in demand. Such is not the case with the Volt, and aside from small fixable problems, no one will expect it to be “perfect”. Hopefully the SW based modular design will allow for simple flash updates to the most challenging part of Volt development, that being system mgmt/control.

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Tagamet Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Seems like Sept would be a great time for Voltnation II

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jeff Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

I’m looking forward to seeing more concrete spec’s on everything. I see some being used on this board, but I think most is really speculation. We don’t even know if it’s 3 or 4 cylinders. I’m liking more & more the dual battery/genset that Nasaman often refers to in his posts, the world is getting to unpredictable. Is E-100 possible, lol, I’m not sure. Pictures are nice but my eyes need to see. I never have been to a car show but I’m feeling that need with the Volt. I’ll bet there will be record attendence at car shows. Thanks for all the info on this board.

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Voltik Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Let just assume there is a problem with the battery. Bob Lutz did tell us in June this year “Several Hundered” final interrogation vehicles will appear in 2009. Those will be used for crash and safety.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/06/big-news-video-bob-lutz-discusses-his-chevy-volt-test-drive-and-the-current-state-of-development/

I for one feel these vehicles will be put through the worst weather, operational and crash extremes since they are all new technology.

If GM’s future is riding with the volt, should we not believe in them to do it right? I know I know some feel they do nothing right but I am giving their engineers the respect they deserve to have the chance to get this right.

Voltik

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

N Riley #162.

I have never heard that expression before, but if you are including yourself in that group then you will most assuredly have to include me. lol

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Grizzly Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Jeff #171

“Is E-100 possible, lol, I’m not sure”

*** *** ***

Very good question. The answer is, not w/o some sort of top cylinder lubricant as an additive, and even higher compression. Both are most certainly possible, but I doubt anyone is interested at this point. It’s a shame, because these are exactly the lines along which we need to be thinking! The problem is that we have a congress of lobby-fed “do nothing” crooks.

Let’s face it 40 years is just too long to rid ourselves of oil for public transportation. Jeff has brought up a VERY good point about E100.
Let’s hope the Volt comes out sooner than later and that the world leader (GM) in alternative fuels will fuel further success in this area. After all, L.T. we’re looking at this fuel as a R.ange E.tender, not a primary source. The alternative would be to hope congress has the answer!

DO the right thing GM!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

Grizzly, #169.

My friend, my point was the people who hate GM will find fault with the Volt no matter what. Perfection is impossible, but the Volt has to come close because some of these people want GM to fail. My concern is if the Volt gets a bad reputation “out of the box”, then GM may be doomed.

I am not concerned about the software, that should be easily patchable.
My concern is in the mechanical part. That is a little more difficult to “cover up” or fix very quickly.

You and I are on the same page with this. I just don’t want the car to get slammed in the press for stupid stuff.

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NZDavid Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

I like the symbolical touch of the 100 year unveiling, after all, it was 1908 that Ford introduced the model T.

I expect the Volt power train will have the same effect on vehicles over the next 100 years.

Regards

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jeff Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 3:29 am

Grizzly #174
I’ve read on this board that tuning an engine to use ethanol makes it much more efficient. I think I need to look into the Flex-Fuel idea as GM means it to be. Are the engines that different or are computers making the difference. And as you say the compression of the engines to burn different fuels. Which type of engine has the most versatility. What kind of fuels are in are future. This board has opened my eyes to the possibilities. I’m no fan of hydrogen, so some type of alcohol seems right. Your harsh portrayal of Congress has merit. I’m afraid the USA still isn’t taking this energy situation seriously enough. I’m going to post another site on alternative fuel you might find interesting right after this post.
Much to think about. . .

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jeff Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 3:35 am

Here is part of my point from previous post:

http://www.standardalcohol.com/

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G Peacock Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am

GM will forever hold the title of the first production plug-in hybrid. Let’s let Toyota be chasing GM to catch up.

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Cheese Ball Expert Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Electric car at $30K gets a passing grade, at $25K sells very well, below $25K will have waiting lists for 3 years. Will GM have to develop a long-term market strategy involving the costs and recycling of batteries to achieve these prices? Most likely, I would conjecture.

Does GM want to be the cornerstone for the next 100 years? Most likely, I would further conjecture.

Can they do it? We will have to see.

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Grizzly Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

jeff # 177

“Are the engines that different or are computers making the difference.”

*** *** ***

Jeff,

Any engine that can run both ethanol (E85) and gasoline is a compromise, usually in favor of gasoline. This is because if the engine were designed primarily for E85 it would have higher compression and more power, but would pre-detonate when using gasoline and the PCM or computer would have to retard the timing to the point where efficiency is lost.

I don’t think we’ve yet seen the best of flex fuel engines, and I believe that further development could yield much better mileage with E85 w/o compromising gasoline performance.

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jon shmidt Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

i have pictures of the volt i think

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DaveP Says:
September 19th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

#106 Dave G:
Yes, of course. I was thinking of antifreeze type liquid. I have no idea why I wrote water. Carelessness on my part, I was thinking more about the temperatures.

#135 Jackson:
I’m certainly not trying to pooh-pooh accelerated testing. I’m just trying to point out that the results of the accelerated tests can’t be directly converted into real-world numbers. There’s some missing “factor” that lets you interpolate between real world tests and accelerated tests. That missing information is the rate at which the extra “stress” causes the battery to degrade.

Since we have none of that information, the accelerated test data has little to no meaning (to us) outside of the “normal” ranges.

To exaggerate to make the point, it’s like saying it fails after 1 cycle at 150C. There is no way to interpolate that to what it does at 25C without a lot of additional information.
That information is missing, here.

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