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Exclusive: Interview With EnerDel Chairman Charles Gassenheimer

July 3rd, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Original GM-Volt Interviews

EnerDel (Amex: HEV ) is a U.S. based lithium-ion battery maker that has recently delivered a functioning 28 kWh battery pack for automaker Th!nk, for their upcoming Th!nk City electric vehicle. I had the chance for a follow-up interview with EnerDel Chairman Charles Gassenheimer.

Its been almost a year since we last spoke, can you give us an update on EnerDel?
Things are going great. EnerDel has always prided itself on just getting the job done. There is no hype in our story, our focus is on execution. We never promise the street more than we can deliver on.

Last time you hadn’t demonstrated an HEV pack yet.
We’ve since demonstrated our HEV pack in a Prius and have sent it up to Argonne for testing. We announced publicly and without any other changes to the vehicle, just changing out from NiMh to lithium-ion we got 77.4 mpg. If you were to optimize the software in the vehicle to let it know it was lithium versus nickel, we think that there would be substantially further mpg performance. Argonne gave some theoretical numbers which would be in the triple digits.

The other thing that was very exciting is that because of the superior technology that we have they did not need to replace the air cooled systems in the Prius so they did all the tests with no cooling system. This is in stark contrast to our competitors all of whom require advanced cooling systems.

How does your pack compare to A123’s Hymotion pack?
Their pack was 5 kWh and 110 to 150 mpg. Our pack was just 1 kww. So we we’re able to get that boost in performance with a much smaller pack.

I have conviction in the standalone efficiency & excellence of EnerDel’s technology vs. peers. The acid test is in the delivery & testing of actual product. As we have stated publicly – Th!nk has our packs and has successfully integrated these into functional vehicles.

What have the packs been put through?
They have been sent for testing in Canada but we’ve also done our own testing. We’ve gotten cycle life data on the packs now for 3000 cycle which is great. The packs are showing excellent thermal performance and excellent efficiency. The pack has been integrated into a Th!nk City, which demonstrated performance metrics ahead of our expectations.

I think Th!nk has publicly announced that we’ve been able to produce a 28 kWh pack which is 110+ miles of range which is substantially superior to anything else that exist in the market today.

Is that by running the pack within a certain percentage of its capable kwh range?
The key about our technology is what you’re talking about is the available energy window. One of the great things about our technology is that we can run the pack with a much much wider available energy window than our competitors. So that the explanation of why we think our technology is superior to our competitors’ because we can run the pack in a much much wider energy availability window which means we can go up to 95.5% without any detrimental performance to our chemistry (vs. our competitors who are still tied to some of the older technologies).

You brought up the Compact Power pack which is lithium manganese versus graphite. And graphite is one of the older chemistries that we think has poor thermal performance.

That’s their anode, your cathode is lithium-manganese as well isn’t it?
We use lithium manganese versus lithium titanate anode for our HEV or high power application. And this is the one where you can really push it and open that available energy window which is why we can do so much with that 1kWh pack.

With the plugin-EV technologies were using lithium manganese versus hard carbon. And that’s the chemistry we’re using for the Think vehicle.

We have two different chemistries. We have a high-power chemistry and we have a high energy density chemistry. The high power chemistry is what we’re using for the HEV products, with the Prius, and we’re in talks with a number of customers that I can’t disclose today. For high energy density applications like plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles we’re using hard carbon and a variation of pure LMO. That’s the packs we’ve delivered to Th!nk already. And those are the packs that people are very very interested in. And by the way whether it’s a PHEV or electric vehicle there is zero difference form a pure battery perspective. Its really on the drivetrain where you have to recharge the battery on the fly which is where its more complicated. From a pure battery perspective there’s very little difference. In both cases you’re looking for a high energy density battery. So we’ve solved that problem with our battery packs for Th!nk. And remember the Th!nk city vehicle is going to be first to market. It will be on the road commercially available by the end of this year.

Not in this country though?
Actually its going to be marketed in Europe but Ray Lane who’s managing partner of Kleiner-Perkins, the large VC firm, has publicly announced that he believed there will be demand for as many as 50,000 Th!nk City vehicles in the U.S. That’s a 700 – 800 million dollar number for the batteries. Think has clearly been a great first choice partner for us, a great partner for us to scale with. There will be other companies that we partner up with going forward. But if the Th!nk City and their future Ox vehicle are big winners in both Europe and the U.S. then my problem is one of capacity and scale. I have to be able to figure out how to scale my business to meet their demands.

Most lithium-ion battery companies have some relationship with Asia, is EnerDel purely U.S. based?
Yes. We have a plant in Indianapolis where we do the cell, the module, and the battery management system and full pack integration. That is the only large scale lithium-ion automotive battery manufacturing production capacity in the United States.

Are you actually taking raw materials and producing cells in this country?
Yes we are. That’s why I emphasized the point. Both GM and Ford have been extremely public in talking about how important it is going to be to have U.S. domestic production.

The actual lithium salts you use, where are they mined from?
The first thing is the actual amount of pure lithium is quite small. That’s probably true of our competitors as well. If you look at the bill of raw materials, the amount of pure lithium is quite small. In our case we also use manganese and titanium and graphite.

Lithium is mined in parts of South America, Canada, and Tibet. Most of the raw materials we use come premixed and they come from Asia. The partnership we have with Itochu is important. Itochu is one of the largest Japanese trading houses. They’re a $100 billion corporation and the worldwide leader in raw materials and lithium ion battery manufacturing equipment. Having them be our strategic partner and 2.5% owner is a critical strategic advantage as we go to scale.

So we can’t actually mine our own lithium in the U.S.?
We cannot today but remember lithium is the 33rd most abundant material on the planet. So I don’t think there is going to be any lithium shortages any time soon. I’d think we would just have to go look for it and we really haven’t spent any time looking for it.

Other people claim there could be lithium shortages, such as the CEO of ZENN motor cars who points out EEStors potential device uses Barite which he claims is 100 times more abundant.
Everybody is talking about this being a $150 billion or $200 billion market and then going up from there. We’re obviously strategically ready to think about any scenario. We’re ready to scale and we’re ready to meet the needs of our customers.

My point is that there are some people who are experts who feel there might not be enough lithium on the planet to sustain extremely widespread use of automotive batteries.
If this market goes to a trillion dollars a year in revenues, there will be a bottleneck. One step at a time. Just like oil, until we stared drilling below the seabed we didn’t know it was there. We don’t know where all the lithium is. We know its very abundant and its even is the sea. Maybe well have to figure out how to extract lithium from seawater one day.

Besides Th!nk are you talking with the major OEMs like Ford and GM who are already building cars in large numbers?
Lyle the obvious answer is as you know there are only four companies today who are in the USABC phase II process. Those companies are EnerDel, A123, JCI/Saft and LG Chem/Compact Power. So you should assume that any major automotive company, and there’s 50 globally, all have some sort of electrification program started. You should assume that all 50 of those companies are probably in discussion with all 4 of the companies that are on that list. That’s your short list. We are in conversation at the highest levels with a number of Tier I OEMs, all of whom are looking for supply of the lithium ion battery. Its kind of funny because every single one of them has the same question which is great, lets assume we love your chemistry, can you get us scale? My obvious answer now is, no, I can’t get you scale until I build capacity.

While I’ve got probably the most capacity in the industry, I need to go out and build more capacity. I can’t ask my shareholders today for more money until I have a volume order. And their response is I can’t give you a volume order until you’ve got capacity, so we’ve got a chicken and egg problem which needs to get solved. There’s only two ways to solve that: a) the federal government gets involved, or b) the car companies kick in some money to build capacity. Clearly European and Asian companies have better balance sheets today than Detroit, but I wouldn’t count any of the Big 3 out at this point. I think the problem will get solved in 2008.

What is the capacity of your facility to produce cells right know, for example LG Chem reportedly produces 1 million cells per month?
We have capacity for 300,000 HEV packs per year which would be 12 million cells per year or 1 million cells per month, though that capacity depends on two pieces of equipment which will be arriving shortly. We’ve buttressed that capacity with additional capacity in Asia for cells.

The capacity game is going to be global.

So it seems it is inevitable that battery companies have to have some link with Asia?
I don’t know if its inevitable but it is very difficult to be in the lithium ion battery business without having some link to Asia. They are the dominant players.

Where is the Th!nk City with your pack right now?
Its in Indianapolis.

Is it street legal?
Yes it is. One think we like about Th!nk is that they used to be owned by Ford so their vehicle is crash tested. It’s the only electric vehicle today that’s been crash tested so its road ready.

So you actually drive it around?
Yes we are.

Can we see some video?
Well although Think has given us the car and we’re driving it around its still their vehicle. We provided them with the vehicle footage I can ask if they are willing to release it, but it’s not our decision alone.

Would you consider this driving a testing process, kind of like the prototype Chevy Volts?
If you were to compare where we are with Think to where GM is based on what Ive read I would say we are substantially ahead of the Volt, and we do plant to have the vehicle on the road by the end of this year.

What type of mass production numbers of these cars do you plan for by the end of 08?
That speaks more to Th!nk than us. We have to be careful about sharing confidential information. Volume data will be public soon enough. My understanding is in 09, they want volumes on the road in the thousands.

That’s in the UK in 2008 and 2009?
Yes.

I understand A123 is involved in the loop with Th!nk and GE, is there a competition between you and A123 for the Think project or do they just plan to use both of your companies?
Part of this is not my decision. Obviously its Th!nk’s decision as to who they are going to use for the vehicle. They’ve announced they want to have batteries from both. A123 has delivered something to Th!nk, although I’m not aware what it is. I understand Think has tested it and its only 19 kwh, which gives you a range of less than 70 miles, so in head to head competition our battery is better.

Other than that I have no other way to access what else will go into the decision making. I do know they have said publicly they do not want to put a battery into the vehicle unless it can go 100 miles.

In life everything is a competition. Im guessing that A123 has to deliver a pack that meets their minimum requirements first. Once they do that its probably going to be a competition but Im guessing because demand for this product is going to be so high that both of us are going to be capacity strained and they may wind up needing to use both.

Posted by: Lyle

128 Responses to “Exclusive: Interview With EnerDel Chairman Charles Gassenheimer”

LongCliff Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:18 am

Is it street legal?
Yes it is. One think we like about Th!nk is that they used to be owned by Ford so their vehicle is crash tested. It’s the only electric vehicle today that’s been crash tested so its road ready.

This statement is incorrect. The Tesla Roadster has been crash tested and is road ready.

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RB Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:26 am

Lyle — Fantantastic interview, so informative on many points.
“On the road by the end of the year” and “driving one now” and “all in Indianapolis”.
Things are changing fast.

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Jim F. Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:53 am

Great interview! What impressed me is how the battery industry is being impacted by the electrification of automobiles. The GM Volt has put a lot of pressure on other auto companies as well as the battery companies. I can see only good coming out of this competition for the consumer. Go GM!

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o.jeff Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 am

Excellent! It is great to see some fellow Hoosiers at the leading edge of critical technology.

Jeff

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Murray Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:10 am

Nice interview Lyle…

Great point LongCliff #1….I thought the same exact thing when I read that line….Tesla made it through the vigorous, somewhat ridiculous process of passing US regulations for putting a pure EV into production.

I dont know too much about the Th!nk City vehicle but most of my driving happens on the highway so it certainly doesnt sound like something I would be driving…..however….I’m all for selling AS MANY AS POSSIBLE in the US for the city-dwellers.
I hope their real-world testing goes well and this whole capacity issue can get resolved ASAP…three cheers for EnerDel for delivering something real and getting this EV revolution closer and closer to reality !

Anyone else think…sorry Th!nk… its ironic guys name is GASsenheimer…?

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MarkinWI Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 am

Maybe the best interview I have read in terms of giving you a perspective on where the auto industry is going. Here is the quote of the decade:

“You should assume that all 50 of those companies (major autommakers) are probably in discussion with all 4 of the companies that are on that list… We are in conversation at the highest levels with a number of Tier I OEMs, all of whom are looking for supply of the lithium ion battery.”

Gassenheimer was talking like a lawyer. Exteremely careful with his word choices. Extremely careful about not betraying confidential information. He is leading one of the 4, he is talking with some of the major OEMs, and probably knows who his 3 competitors are talking to as well. I now have much more doubt about whether the Volt will change the market in 2010 (100 mpg Prius by simply dropping in the Lith, viable electric Th!nks), and much less doubt that if they do NOT develop the Volt they will be placed in the dustbin of history. To me, this makes the WSJ op/ed look silly.

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LyleL Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:19 am

“we can run the pack in a much much wider energy availability window which means we can go up to 95.5% without any detrimental performance to our chemistry (vs. our competitors who are still tied to some of the older technologies).”

Maybe I’m a bit too cautious but the on board battery charger should be top of charge adjustable by the owner to maximize battery life. Yes, he said it will perform with a 95.5% window. Since this is a new technology and longterm real world testing is none existent it would be good to minimize stressing the battery if the daily commute will allow. A 110+ mile range would be more than needed for me, so I’d like the option to control the top charge. The “fuel gauge” could be used to determine the depth of discharge.

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Vincent Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:26 am

Good Interview.

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Jim in PA Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:45 am

There was much discussion about the possible limited supply of lithium. How feasible is it to recycle old batteries to recover their lithium? It seems that this would help, but not until the first generation of batteries are retired and available for recycle.

PS – Some ancillary good news with all this is that maybe we only a year or two away from getting great laptop computer batteries that let us stay untethered for a day at a time. A minor issue compared to transportation, to be sure, but a nice side benefit.

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Morgan Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:54 am

6 MarkinWI:

Take some of his comments with a HUGE grain of salt. He is the Chairman of a publicly traded company who is currently looking for capital to increase production capacity.

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statik Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 am

Very interesting. Nice interview Lyle.

The 95.5% usage is also curious, is that something to do with the Lithium graphite? Is one of the factors in usable range of a Lithium battery the thermal properties? Maybe Nasaman could answer that for me if your out there lurking? Seems like your forte. (Or anyone really, lol)

Unless I missed it, the part that would interest us the most is, “What is the estimated cost of production” for this 28kWh pack?

Th!nk seems to be a fairly “low cost” EV, I see on their site it lists the Th!nk city with the 28.3 pack. The CEO (Jan-Olaf Willums) of Th!nk is quoted as saying, “that the City will sell in the US for $15,000 – $17,000, with a Mobility Fee of $100-$200 to lease the batteries”

http://www.think.no/think/content/view/full/290

This ‘lease math’ makes it hard to discern the cost on the pack. Is it $100 or $200, $1,200 or $2,400 a year. Are they putting expected return on costs over 4 years? 6? Where is the break even point? Where does the pack become profitable? Does it really cost 17K to produce this little car, or is there battery pack costing inside this price?

Just as a “guess-ti-mate,” pretending that I was building the cost structure and pricing. I would say there is a couple grand costing of the pack in the 17K and $200 a month over 4 years to become positive on the battery.

48months x $200 +$2,000 = $11,600

Would be curious to know what others thinks, what is your guess?

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Eco Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:17 am

Lyle, thank you for all the work you do. I know you probably love it, but thanks just the same.

There is a good article on examiner.com about EESTOR. I can’t vouch for technical accuracy, but if the basis of the article is true, EEStor might not be total vaporware, and it would make sense to license the technology to the OEM’s who are doing hybrids. All of them.

Just like the ICE for the volt can be small because the battery drives the wheels, EESTOR’s capacitor allows the battery to be smaller, because of the capacitor’s ability to handle quick charge/discharge. They use the example of a flash in a camera, which uses a capacitor for the burst of the flash. For those of you in the business, it’s elemental; for me, it was not so obvious that EESTOR’s device does not have to do everything a battery does to be useful or groundbreaking.

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Kaido Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:44 am

Actually its going to be marketed in Europe but Ray Lane who’s managing partner of Kleiner-Perkins, the large VC firm, has publicly announced that he believed there will be demand for as many as 50,000 Th!nk City vehicles in the U.S. That’s a 700 – 800 million dollar number for the batteries.

700 000 000 / 50 000 = 14000
800 000 000 / 50 000 = 16000

So the cost of such a battery at volumes 50000 is 14 000 to 16 000 $ ?
Isnt that a little too much?

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MarkinWI Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:50 am

Morgan@#10 – You could very well be right. But this guy doesn’t feel like the EESTOR guy to me. Yeah, he claims his stuff is way better than his competitiors. But his would be the third company that we know of who has delivered a lithium battery pack to an OEM. Put yourself in the shoes of any OEM. $4 gal. gas. Sales off 20% across the industry. You either already have one or more hybrids in the lineup(Ford/Mercury, Toyota, GM), in the planning stages (Nissan, etc.) or you know that your competitors do. You have to be looking at this to get in the game. Gassenheimer’s claims as I quoted them do not seem far-fetched at all.

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statik Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:54 am

#13 Kaido

Nice. I totally missed the 700-800 million as a direct reference to the 50K. So they are paying around $500/kWh.

That still about 80 bucks more than I thought, but not still too shabby for a little (relatively speaking) start-up company. I had them at 2K + $200/mth for 4 years…guess they are figuring payback at 5 years? That would make a even $14,000.

$2,000 + 60months x $200 = $14,000

Logical conclusion 16kWh x 500 = $8,000 max for Volt pack?

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:15 am

I didn’t realize that EnerDel might have a superior product. Now I wonder how good Lithium Technology Corporation’s batteries are compared to those on that “short list”. Currently, they hold the speed record for electric motorbike drag-racing, and they’ve demonstrated their Apollo racing car at various events.

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Tim Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:18 am

Great interview, Lyle with valuable information. One more step toward the age of the electron.

Here’s the EnerDel page about their technology:

http://enerdel.com/content/view/32/75/

Here’s the EnerDel safety page with a puncture test video:

http://enerdel.com/content/view/104/87#safety/

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 am

Thank you Lyle, great interview.

Statik #15, it seems we slowly converge toward Nasaman’s cost estimates …

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Big Picture Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 am

Off topic:

“The Volt is going to have far more variations than people imagine,”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayOBVrTWkn0E&refer=home

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TOM M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:21 am

I believe that electric autos will be like computers. The technology will be changing this industry at a very rapid pace. I hope GM has taken this into consideration when they decided to build the VOLT.

It seems imperative that they have the VOLT on the market and in the hands of the consumer ASAP !! The competition is going to be fierce and soon.

God Bless America.

Tom

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Tim Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 am

By the way;

How are Lithium-Ion batteries like Ice Cream?

They both come in many different “flavors” and can be made with many different formulas.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:37 am

#19, Big P,

The E-flex platform was intended to be versatile – the range extender can be gas / ethanol, diesel or fuel cell (I like to throw in compressed air for good measure).

The battery pack can be a mix of batteries and capacitors, with varying amounts of total storage capacity – 20, 40, 60, 100, 150, 200, etc.

The motors can either be installed with a transaxel, a transmission or both for 4 wheel drive. Motors can be located in the wheel hubs for 2 or 4 wheel drive.

The battery pack and motor(s) can be scaled for small vehicles or large industrial vehicles. These variations are endless – mix and match, plug and play.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:12 am

Forget all the Hollywood stars and the sports stars … whatever individual or company that comes up with an inexpensive, safe, high energy density, high power, quick recharging battery ought to be the SUPERSTARS of the business world … stadium filling rock stars. The President should give them a medal of honor or something. Seriously.

That’s how BADLY we need to kick our addiction to this damn product called gasoline. I would MUCH rather give my transportaion dollars to companies like EnerDel, A123, LGChem or some other energy storage company … even if it is more expensive at first.

It sounds like the battery technology SHOULD get more and more inexpensive once the initial R&D expenses are covered and the big battery factories get built. The battery industry is about to get VERY large in the next 10 years. It’s time to unwind the oil based economy and gear up for the electrified transportation economy. I can’t wait for the day when the sight of a car running on an IC engine is a rare sight … a nostaglia kind of thing … kind of like we think of horses and buggies today.

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Gary Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:14 am

Here is yet another interview with insanely high MPG claims to raise readers’ eyebrows.

I find all this rhetoric around 77, 110, 150, and higher MPG figures pretty invalid… when you have a car that is powered by a battery in addition to the ICE, it’s too easy to exaggerate fuel economy figures. If the Volt has a 40-mile range in battery power alone, and you drive it 40.001 miles, the Volt can have 1000+ MPG rating.

“Wow, that’s amazing!” say the ignorant masses.

Government fuel economy ratings will definitely be needing an overhaul once battery-powered cars start hitting the streets.

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Darius Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:14 am

Let’s make Volt price breakdown:
Battery max $ 8000
Chassis, transmission, steering, interior max $ 10 000
Electrical gearing $ 5000 (????)
Range extension package $ 5000 (????)
Research and development $ 2000 (300 000 cars per annum payback of 1 bln. (?????) Investment within two years)
Sales tag $ 3000
Total: $ 33 000

Am I realistic on budget estimate?

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canehdian Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:21 am

A lot of people here are all crazy “GO US!!!!!!!” patriots, so I thought I’d point out a contradiction I noticed:

“Most lithium-ion battery companies have some relationship with Asia, is EnerDel purely U.S. based?
Yes. We have a plant in Indianapolis where we do the cell, the module, and the battery management system and full pack integration. That is the only large scale lithium-ion automotive battery manufacturing production capacity in the United States.”

So he says they do all their production in the US.

Then..
“We’ve buttressed that capacity with additional capacity in Asia for cells.”
He says that they have increased their production abilities by using asian manufacturing.

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Morgan Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:38 am

14 Mark:

Yeah, he claims his stuff is way better than his competitiors

^^^

That is what I was taking a salt grain with. The MPG claims and the chest puffing

The curious thing to me, and admittedly now that I have started up work again I don’t have time to track the market much, but with as much promise and OEM publicity the battery field is getting it should be garnering venture capital hand over fist to build extra capacity.

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noel park Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 am

Sorry to be off topic (well maybe not really), but I have worked my way through the first 147 pages of “Maximum Bob”. It is really one of Elmore Leonard’s better efforts IMHO, and I have read a few.

I thought about giving you a thumbnail update on the doings of “Maximum Bob”, but decided it would take a lot of the fun out of it for anyone who cares to read it.

I winder if the person, or persons, who hung this nickname on Mr. Lutz had read it? Probably, I think. If so, it’s an interesting commentary on Mr. Lutz’s persona. Come to think of it, I wonder if he has read it?

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Kent Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:40 am

“Clearly European and Asian companies have better balance sheets today than Detroit, but I would count any of the Big 3 out at this point. I think the problem will get solved in 2008.”

Is this a typo? Did he mean, “…..but I wouldn’t count any of the Big 3 out…”?

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OhmExcited Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:41 am

If GM has an open door policy on battery suppliers, I wonder why EnerDel is not in the game for the E-Flex.

Companies like this would be great at end of life of the vehicle when we hit 2020. Just replace the battery back. They will probably be vastly cheaper and more able. Then you are good to go indefinitely, until all the plastc parts on the car disintegrate.

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d burgdorff Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:49 am

#11 – Statik

I think that should be 15,000 to 17,000 British pounds not dollars. I used your link to go to their home page and they mentioned 14,000 pounds for the Th!nk City. That’s $28,000.

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 am

Kaido, you beat me to it doing the math. $16k for their 28kwh packs comes out to $571/kwh

However it does highlight something… when comparing one companies pack’s against anothers…. one really needs to be comparing actual usable capacity, not raw capacity…..

So actual cost for the EnerDel 28kwh pack is 28kwh * 95% = 26.6kwh. Divide that into $16k and it’s $601/kwh.

The Volt’s battery only has usable capacity of 50% or 8kwh. So the pack for the Volt should cost no more than 8kwh * $601/kwh = $4,808 max that GM should pay for the packs.

No need for a cooling system with their chemistry should also keep costs down and one less thing that can fail.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:59 am

Bob Lutz … electric car rock star? He might be in 2010 when the Volt comes out. The electrification of the guitar was pretty revolutionary back in the 1950s when it came out. Bob Lutz is going to be one of the main guys who electrifies the automobile. He might go down in history like Les Paul who created those famous Gibson guitars.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20USA/Products/LesPaul/Standard/

Maybe they can have a big rock band play for the crowd in 2010 at a big auto show when the Volt is about to go into production. Electric cars and electric guitars. Sounds cool to me.

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davea0511 Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:00 am

Darius-

I’m wondering the same thing. I’ve asked elsewhere why pessimists such as Statik get numbers like $45K, to which I’ve seen no reply.

I think an easier and potentially better analysis involves taking the price of a similar GM car on the lot, plus and minus the differences.

Comparable GM car: chevy malibu $16K
+$0 replace the ICE with efficient e-rev generator
+$5K for electric motor
+$10K for LiFePO4 batteries (my guess for 2010)
+$2K control system
+$3K regenerative braking
========
$35K

This, of course assumes they won’t roll in the additional costs of R&D and tooling in with the manufacturing costs of the car, which I think is fair because the government will step in to make it happen after GM declares bankruptcy just before they roll it out.

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DonC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 am

Great and interesting interview.

I’m doubting the Th!nk City will be a hit. Having lived in NYC one of the great benefits of a car is that it allows you to get out of the city. In the city there is good public transport. It has the same issues as the Smart. The Xo is a different story.

#25 canehdian

I don’t think you have a point. The issue isn’t that the entire car will be a USA product. Everyone recognizes the global nature of the world we live in. The “GO USA” sentiment relates to the technology and to the fact that the USA needs to be independent of the Middle East. When last I checked, unlike our “friends” in Saudi Arabia, Asian countries aren’t using profits to fund radical Islamic madrassas in Pakistan.

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Big Picture Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:06 am

Interesting change in the auto biz model that seems to be developing–one of the biggest remaining in-house competitive advantages (ICEs) is being transferred to outsiders (electric storage). What are the implications? E.g., do automobiles become increasingly commoditized? (as every automaker has access to the same part). If so, how do the automakers differentiate themselves?

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:07 am

GM stock today is up for a change, and out of single digits, up 4.2% to $10.40.

Just noticed how low their market cap is… according to yahoo finance it’s $5.8B(illion), I don’t know if that’s based off yesterdays close or is real time w/the stock quote. In any case, that’s below Ford’s $10B, and both are miles below Toyota’s $145B or Honda’s $122B. Not that Toyota or Honda would want to do it, but they could afford to buy with stock.

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:32 am

davea0511, actually I think $5k for the electric motor is on the high side… especially at wholesale. And you may be a little bit low for the control system… I think it’s going to be more complex than the ones used in a pure BEV to be able to handle integration with the generator.

I also think $10k for the battery pack is high…. even assuming $500/kwh for the raw 16kwh capacity, that’s $8k…. but I think it will be even less than that for GM.

Some more minor things that will increase price over the malibu…. the AC compressor needs it’s own motor as there is no accessory belt off an always running ICE. There also is no waste heat off an ICE for providing heat so what replaces the heating core and hoses could be a little more expensive. I’m assuming LED lighting, if not for headlights, at least for brake and running lights, and I imagine those are more expensive. GM also keeps mentioning they need to design a new low power use sound system in order to keep that 40+ mile BEV only range/charge, and if so, that could add more to the cost.

I’m also hoping the Volt uses the special paint job that reflects a lot more sun light and heat, reducing the load on the AC, as well as more insulation around the cabin, to also reduce the load on the heating and cooling. Both of these also add some.

Lots of little things can add up fast.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:39 am

DonC @ 34

There are a lot of mid sized cities with little public transport. The TH!nk City I imagine is geared towards those markets, not the big cities like NY, or LA.

But, you have a great point about one of the purposes for a car. To get away!! I agree that the Th!nk cars will still be just a niche car. Too small to really do much getting away in.

The Volt, on the other hand, With its limitless range and nice size, makes it the perfect car to get the in town electric mileage, and still be able to pack up and hop in for a long weekend trip with the family. No need for more than one car. The Volt will not be a niche vehicle, and I think that is the point driving its developmental decisions.

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statik Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:42 am

#30 d burgdorff

“I think that should be 15,000 to 17,000 British pounds not dollars. I used your link to go to their home page and they mentioned 14,000 pounds for the Th!nk City. That’s $28,000.”

I think you are refering to the costing section, that reads like this:
“The MSRP has not been finalized in the US however it is estimated the TH!NK city will go on sale in Europe at around $31,388 USD. In addition, TH!NK will offer a “mobility pack” to consumers for about $314 USD per month that will cover leasing the battery pack, car insurance and electricity. ”

Right now they are taking orders in Europe, specifically starting in Norway (dunno why), then into the rest of UK in 2009. Problem with starting in Norway and some other Europeon countries, is the fee on a new car, which (at least for Norway) is approximately 30-50% of a new car.

Linky to Norweigian fee article:
http://www.dagbladet.no/dinside/2005/01/11/419932.html

Here is the link I got the $15,000-$17,000 + $200 fee from:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm

The battery is by far the most expensive component of the City, which will list for about $34,000 in Norway. Take the battery out of the equation, and Willums says he can sell the car for about $15,000 to $17,000 in the United States, with a “mobility fee” of $100 to $200 a month that might also include services like insurance and wireless Internet access.

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm

MetrologyFirst, while some use a car to “get away”, most cars are used for every day commuting to work #1, and #2 to run local errands.

A pure BEV for most buyers of them won’t be their only car. The BEV will be their primary every day car for commuting/errands, and their other car for when you need to exceed the BEV’s range/charge (weekend get a ways, etc). Eventually I think a more significant number of folks, as they see their friends/family with BEV’s, will get used to the idea, and may actually get a BEV as their one and only vehicle, and if they need to “get away” will rent a long range vehicle (be it a Volt or parallel hybrids or traditional ICE), or even possibly borrow a friend or relatives car who would probably love to drive your BEV around while you’re gone.

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statik Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:09 pm

#33 Davea0511

“Darius- I’m wondering the same thing. I’ve asked elsewhere why pessimists such as Statik get numbers like $45K, to which I’ve seen no reply. I think an easier and potentially better analysis involves taking the price of a similar GM car on the lot, plus and minus the differences.”

Hey! Pessimists like me? Ok, you got me, I’m a pessimist.

Where do ‘we’ get it? Nothing too fancy to explain, maybe thats why you don’t see it being ‘fleshed’ out or debated much. Price is from direct quotes from Lutz saying it will be north of 40K.

Side note on your math:
You have the base off of a Chevy Mailbu @$16.000. A Mailbu base-base model starts at $20,550…for another couple months, then with GM’s across the board 3.5% price increase it will be $21,300 in the fall. So your estimate, by your own math is north of 40K, and you can’t negotiate big dollars off the hot cars.

(Margin on Mailbu line is 22%, (as per Q&A after annual meeting), that is on the average sale, margin on base is probably about 10% (see Hummer article))

Side note: People expect more than a ‘base Malibu’ when they see or sit in a new Volt–there would be choas here if the Volt was revealed to be anything similar to the Malibu

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Dave G Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm

#24 Darius,

The Volt is based on the Chevy Cobalt platform. The Cobalt has a sticker base price of $15K. That includes everything on your list except the battery ($8K) and electrical gearing ($5K). This would correspond to a budget estimate of $28K.

I don’t really know how much the Volt is costing GM, but I do suspect that GM is inflating the price right now in order to get the U.S. government to give larger rebates for the Volt.

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DonC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm

MetrologyFirst@34

I agree with your point about mass transit. I’d take it a bit further and say that with the exception of a few cities in the NE most US cities have virtually no public transport.

The Th!nk City just seems like a bad match for the US situation. Small cars like the City are great for parking in cities like NY where parking is an issue. However, if you’re in a city like this you don’t want two cars, and the City is too small for weekend getaways.

In other cities from LA to Nashville to Houston parking isn’t so much of an issue and therefore the small size isn’t an advantage per se. Plus you end up driving on expressways even for “local” trips so you’d like a car that worked better for this.

So yes, the VOLT is a perfect fit for the US situation, much like the Prius and the Civic Hybrid. I think this was Bob Lutz’s point about the EV-1 not being a realistic alternative — people want/need a slightly larger car than a two seater. With different driving styles you might get a different result. The Prius killed the Honda Insight in the USA but I believe the Insight outsold the Prius in Japan.

This is why I believe the Th!nk Xo, as a larger car, would be a much better car for NA. Most families have more than one car, so as long as the vehihcle works for limited highway driving, I can see it finding a place in many garages as the “local” car. (The VOLT of course has few limitations other than the fact it’s not a SUV).

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kent beuchert Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Unfortunately, good batteries or not, the Think (nor any battery only EV) simply not a viable alternative to our ICEs. It’s obvious that htese companies are building battery-onlyies because that’s all they are capable of building. Atthe end of the day, a car has to be able to transport you anywwhere you want to go at any time you want to
go. Everything else is niche and of limited uselfullness. It’s fine for well heeled folk who have a garage and want to greenwash their image using it for local runs and commutes. It’s transparently not a full service vehicle. At least not with its current batteries.

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Noah Nehm Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm

There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem with electric vehicles. There wasn’t much of a market for batteries because they weren’t that good. Batteries were not good, because there wasn’t sufficient R&D. There wasn’t sufficient R&D because there wasn’t a big enough market.

What got the research off the ground was the market for cell phones and laptops, which led to a revolution in power tools. And now, the possibility of electric vehicles.

It seems to me that battery technology is maturing rapidly, and there are a lot of innovations (metal halo-phosphate anodes, sodium-ion batteries, nanowire cathodes, etc. ) that may eventually make their way into commercial products.

GM’s timing, I think, is impeccable. The future will see more and more electrification of the transportation sector.

Of course, the other side of the equation is electrical supply. There are a lot of interesting developments there, too, particularly in the innovations in nuclear energy. I’m hoping to see some more activity in the design and manufacturing of the Thorium powered Molten Salt Reactor .

This reactor has the potential to be safer and more efficient that standard light water reactors, more proliferation resistant, and with a 1/1000 of the waste stream for the same power level. What’s more, the design has the potential to produce output waste that decays to background radiation levels in 300 years. For more details, see wikipedia’s entry on the subject.

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frankyB Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm

That Th!nk Ox is really cute and functional

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm

#44, kent beuchert.

Yup. You nailed it. Just a niche. There isn’t one city in my state that has a mass transit system as good as NYC. I also don’t know anyone that just stays in the city they live in. Which means they have to leave town. And this country (USA) simply cannot compete with the Mass Transit system of the UK. (which I used constantly when I had to work there). So Th!nk City is just a small niche here at least.

But while we are talking about niches, the Volt will also be one if it is priced too high.

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butters Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Outstanding interview, Lyle. Your journalistic chops have improved markedly.

So the difference between EnerDel’s energy-dense cell and CPI is hard carbon vs. graphite (soft carbon?) anodes with essentially the same manganese cathode. And the difference between their power-dense cell and AltairNano is manganese vs. cobalt cathodes with essentially the same titanate anode.

I wonder if anyone is going to try the corresponding LiFePO4 variations (with hard carbon and titanate anodes). It seems like the advanced lithium-ion universe is beginning to take shape from the chemistry perspective. Once the ideal energy and power chemistries are established, gains will most likely come primarily through applying nanotechnology to the mechanical structure of the electrodes.

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RB Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm

#24, #33

What you have estimated is the production cost, per car, as about $34K. If one assumes a sale price of $45K, then the margin on the car is 100*(45-34)/45= 24% Comparing that to “traditional” margins of 20% for small cars up to 40% for luxury cars, it is closer to the small car margin. The 24% margin is reasonable, even on the low side. It has to cover a myriad of real costs at GM and the dealership. At 24% margin the Volt program will not be profitable over all for GM or its dealers until higher volumes are reached in the 2nd or maybe 3rd year.
In any event, everything is consistent with the numbers you gave.

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noel park Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:07 pm

#39 Statik:

I believe that Think is a Norwegian company. Also, I believe that Mr. Willums is Norwegian. Sorry if I’m restating the obvious.

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Dave G Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:10 pm

#49 RB,

The production cost of the Toyota Prius was probably over $30K in it’s first year, but Toyota sold them for much less. I think negative margins are fairly typical for initial runs of new car models.

What matters for profitability is the production cost after volume has ramped. Production costs go down significantly with higher volume. Volume ramps faster when you start with negative margins. So negative margins initially will help profitability in the long run.

The problem for GM is that they don’t appear to be in a good financial position to support this typical model. So I suspect GM is angling for the U.S. government to help with plug-in/EV rebates. This way, GM can start off with slightly positive margins, and not lose too much money, but have a fairly low cost to the consumer after the rebate.

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statik Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:20 pm

#50 noel park

“#39 Statik: I believe that Think is a Norwegian company. Also, I believe that Mr. Willums is Norwegian. Sorry if I’m restating the obvious.”

I don’ t it is too obvious, I was kind of thinking along those lines as well, what with his name being “Jan Olaf Willums” lol.

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Jerry Jones Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Having a EnerDel Lithium-ion battery would save manufacturing cost since it doesn’t require a cooling system.

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm

kent, regarding your argument that BEV’s are not “full service vehicles” and just won’t do for the American public….

…. that’s exactly been the marketing that convinced Americans that they needed big SUV’s…. that folks need to buy a vehicle that will do everything…. capable of going off road, towing, plowing, carrying 8 passengers, etc. Of course that doesn’t meet reality most of the times, it’s a rare time when I see a big SUV with more than 2 in it, and most of the time it’s just the driver.

I haven’t driven over 110 miles in a day in over a year, so a 110 mile range/charge BEV is awesome. I’d probably keep my by then 10 year old Volvo w/not much market value left for the rare times the BEV wouldn’t cut it.

The biggest challenge is getting over people’s mind sets like you mention. A big part of it is folks are so used to the ICE model. I’m guessing (and hope) 99% of folks don’t fill up every day but maybe once, or twice max, a week with liquid fuels. So folks may feel that “plugging in” every day is a similiar hassle. But “plugging in” is something you do at home, it’s less hassle than possibly going out of your way to find that gas station with the best price, possibly waiting for a pump to free up, inserting your credit card and waiting for authorization (or going inside to “pre pay” for cash customers), waiting (and holding as up here more and more stations are removing the clips from the pump handle that let you start fueling and wait til it fills up when it auto stops) for it to fill up, waiting for the receipt to print (I know some folks don’t have them printed, but I do to keep track). To “plug in” is easier, park car, plug-in takes seconds, enter home, and next time you go to use it, unplug and drive.

At 110 miles/charge that’s 40,000 miles/year you could drive, all 100% gas free. And emissions free (unlike “hydrogen” even if it was not a hoax).

Now of course a (plug-in) BEV has the same problem as a plug-in hybrid (like the series hybrid Volt)… you need to live where you have access to a “plug”. That may mean both any plug-in is “niche” market as I don’t know which percentage of Americans live where they could plug-in.

That said, now of course the biggest factors in whether a BEV or a plug-in hybrid is the right choice for a given individual or family are going to be price and actual daily range needed….

…. if someone’s daily commute is under 40 miles round trip, and the Volt is close to the same (or less) than a comparable BEV with 40 miles or more range, then the Volt likely is the better choice. For example, the BEV w/110 mile range you are possibly paying for battery capacity that you don’t need.

If however the Th!nk is sold w/out the battery at half the price of the Volt ($20k vs. $40k for the Volt), and the battery lease is as low as someone mentioned above, ie. $100/month, then I’d definitely go with the Th!nk. Assuming of course at that point those were the two choices. A plug-in Prius with 20 mile battery only range priced around $27k may be more tempting (5 years of leasing the Th!nk’s battery, again assuming the very optimistic $100/month, is $6k).

And don’t forget the extreme long shot EEStor w/their ultracaps. On the remote chance they deliver that would completely change the game. Just the quick charge capability (not at home as we’ve previously discussed, but at suitably equiped quick charge stations) alone makes it’s per charge range practically a non-issue. On top of that, the price/kwh and size and weight of an EEStor device could make 200+ miles/charge range very possible. But if it sounds too good to be true….. but it’s a nice dream.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm

#35, Big Picture,

You hit the nail right on the head. The ICE was the single greatest barrier to entry into the automarket, and many smaller automakers often bought ICE’s (and transmissions) from the majors.

Now, motors and simple reduction gears are within reach of most potential automakers, and batteries are the only “difficult” commodity. Fortunately, there are countless battery manufacturers in Asia, and many innovative firms in the US, which could license new tech.

This is why I fear most for Ford and Chrysler – they’ve not made any announcements, other than admitting they are a couple years behind, and trotting out concept vehicles. I really think companies like Th!nk, Tesla, Fisker and Aptera are going to displace much of the domestic automakers sales in the future, if the Ford and Chrysler don’t do something soon. Ford will likely license or buy from one of these firms, and Chrysler will be bought by Nissan.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:17 pm

GM’s approach with the Volt is sound. They are not developing a niche car. They want for you to take your everyday driver in your garage now and replace it with a Volt. You lose no capability, range, roominess (for the most part), warrantee, and get in return cheaper fuel bills, reduced environmental impact and no tethering to the price of oil and gas. LOTS of options! Not to mention you get a GREAT looking car to boot (hopefully)! You can have your cake and eat it too. I think this is the best way to make electric propulsion mainstream.

All other reasonably priced electric offerings have some restrictions, be it size, range, or manufacturer support. These cars are niche offerings. And that’s OK! We need those as well. We have always had them. Its just that the lines get blurred by the media and the buyers.

I would argue that the SUV’s and pickups were intended as niche vehicles as well. The fact that the owners morphed them into daily drivers is not the manufacturers fault. Hopefully this gas frenzy will put them back into niche vehicle status where they belong. Until the electric SUVs and pickups come along. E-Flex will change that game permenantly also.

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omegaman66 Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Gary #23
““ If the Volt has a 40-mile range in battery power alone, and you drive it 40.001 miles, the Volt can have 1000+ MPG rating.

Wow, that’s amazing!” say the ignorant masses.”

I disagree. It is going to happen that a lot of people buy the volt and rarely if ever use the ICE engine. Calculate the MPG on THAT! Dismissing the fact that the 82% of the people that own a volt will get ridiculously high mpg of gasoline such as 300, 500, 10,000 mpg is exactly what makes the volt such a big leap over what the prius of today has to offer.

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omegaman66 Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

delete this… misread a post.

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RB Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

#51 Dave G
You make a good point about car companies sometimes having a very low or even negative margin, at first, between sales price and costs of production. With GM’s current financial situation, I wonder if that is possible for them.

If it is, then I think the Volt is an ideal candidate for GM, as was the Prius for Toyota. If the Volt works, the volume is sure to go up and the unit costs to go down.

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N Riley Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:32 pm

I am ready to see some of those electric cars on the road. Maybe we get to see them by this time next year in the U.S. It should prove to be a great little car for city commuting and short distance driving. I believe it will do really good everywhere. It can’t happen fast enough for me.

All I have to say is: Go GM and Go, Go, Go Volt.

And one other thing. I hope all of you have a great 4th of July and weekend where ever you are. Tomorrow you all can be Americans and celebrate our 4th with us. For you “real” Americans, “Remember The Red, White and Blue”.

God speed to all.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Jeff M @ 54

The financial argument will not be the deciding factor for MOST people. It will matter, definitely, but most people will take it into account along with the usual other things that drive car purchases today. Like it or not, utility, quality, comfort, STYLE, brand, fuel cost, experience, future use, environmental impact; all important things people consider. Now, we all may place different levels of importance on these things, but you can not discount them and only make a financial argument. Except for a VERY tiny portion of the public, of course.

If so, why would ANYONE be driving anything but a $13K Hyundai or Aveo? The roads are full of 100’s of different cars and styles. That alone, should dispel the myth of the financial argument’s ultimate importance when buying a car.

History simply doesn’t support it. Even for commuters, let alone families.

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Big Picture Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 2:51 pm

#56 Jason,

Times of big change are very interesting. I’m wondering, in the medium and long run, how the automaker competitive landscape will unfold due to this change in the power delivery system. Now: gas is a commodity; ICEs much less so. Then: electricity supply is a commodity; the storage of it probably will be (huge economies of scale will be needed to displace gas/ICE system; an automaker who wishes to either become their own electric storage supplier or obtain a captive supply may have a big problem with cost); the motors probably will be; the control systems (software, say) probably will be. How would an automaker get a prospective customer to buy their vehicle versus a competitor’s? Probably same as today, but with this one less differentiating factor. Maybe this accelerates the move to contract manufacturing, like the consumer electronics biz. I’ve long thought, e.g., that Chrysler’s best use would be as a design house–farm out the manufacturing. iJeep?

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omegaman66 Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Apparently Toyoto doesn’t agree witt you Big PIcture. They are building their own plants. GM will purchase batteries… toyota will build their own.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm

BigPicture @ 62 That’s a great question.

One word: STYLE

Your arguement is exactly why I think that car design and style in the future will take on renewed significance for most people. Thats why I have been beating that drum for a while now. Electric propulsion will almost put “fuel mileage” or fuel cost issues in the ground. Largely irrelevant. Environmental issues will be largely marginalized. Cars can be less optimized, since the “design penalty” for non-egg designs will have a much smaller impact on total fuel costs than now. Cars can be STYLED again. Experience will be new for everyone. The E-Flex revolution can finally be the great equalizer and dispel the “quality gap” arguments with foreign manufacturers. Everyone almost starts fresh.

Luxuries and style, two things GM does really well, IMO, may drive sales then.

Again, I think a well-styled Volt will do more to improve GM’s E-Flex advantage in the future than the absolute effeciency or electric range of the car. That is what has Toyota worried, IMO.

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Jackson Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm

You can say that Gassenheimer sounds more “up front,” but there’s one crucial difference between him and the EESTOR guy:

“We’ve since demonstrated our HEV pack in a Prius and have sent it up to Argonne for testing.”

Once EESTOR gets as far as submitting a real pack to a Government lab for testing, their cred will skyrocket; and failing that, it’s claims deserve much skepticism.

Murray (#5):

“Anyone else think…sorry Th!nk… its ironic guys name is GASsenheimer…?”

I’m still trying to get over “PosaWATz.”

“delete this… misread a post.”

YOU CAN DO THAT ?!!!!

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Arlington Cowboys Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:27 pm

The Th!nk Ox would be a hit here in Arlington, Texas. We are the largest city in the USA *without* mass transit. The people here are screaming for it since gas has doubled in the last 12 months. Dallas Cowboy fans will need an economical way to get to the world’s largest indoor sports stadium in Arlington starting in July 2009 when it opens.

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N Riley Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm

#28 Kent

Evident typo. Nothing more. Lyle has to transcribe each interview and you would expect some typos. Great job, Lyle. Keep up the good work.

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Revolting Price Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm

At least $5k of the price of every auto in the country is due to EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). Also the EPA is responsible for incorrect MPG figures on every car, high gasoline prices (due to 26 different formulas for fuel at refineries) and I could go on and on about this totally disfunctional organization. The EPA is a “beast” created by Richard Nixon. Don’t think that an all EV world would stop the EPA from making up new unfounded regulations that will continue to drive up the cost of owning an EV. In a totally “clean” world the EPA still wouldn’t die off, because everyone knows what the prime directive of any beast is: SELF-PRESERVATION.

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Lightning Volt Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm

I like the way this exec plays up his product. Nothing wrong with putting down the competition a little bit. He sounds pretty intelligent to me. If I got paid his salary (including that golden parachute) I would be chest thumping, also no hand-shakes, instead only high-fives, low-fives or fist-bumps. Go Team !
I think Bob Lutz should be pushing his product more like this guy, he can start by wearing a gold lightning Volt emblem on his tie during all public meetings.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm

DonC #43
The Honda Insight has more in common with the EV-1 than you think. Both were limited in production numbers because they were not profitable. The cost of manufacture was too high on both. If either car was mass produced and available in dealers across the nation both would have sold tons. GM limited the EV-1 to only two States. Honda limited the Insight by not getting it to dealers. When I bought mine I went to 15 dealers with huge lots of Civics and Accords but the day I purchased mine in Florida there was only 4 for sale in the State and I had to travel 140 miles round trip to buy it.
Best money I ever spent though $22,000.00 dollars and I have averaged 60.3 MPG for the last 32,000 miles. HOWEVER my next car will be electric. TED

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DonC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Revolting Price @ 68

Time to put the bong down.

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Grizzly Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:49 pm

This was indeed one of the very best interviews Lyle has conducted. I particularly enjoyed they way he probed and probed about the RM for batteries and Asia’s significance in producing them. At the end of the day, and for the moment it’s clear that w/o Asia there would be no batteries! I’d sure like to see this change.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:03 pm

The only reason pickups and SUVs are not niche vehicles is called advertising. The car companies just kept telling us you need bigger, it’s safer. They pushed them because of the profit margin. They are so profitable because they could charge a large markup on them. Advertise the Volt (How far, How fast, How much) and GM will sell a million of em. Show a Volt scampering up a hill with a good looking man or woman wrapped around it. That’s how you sell cars. TED

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Funny Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Gassenhiemer ?
Is that german for “Hi More Gas” please. We need less gas. I’m still waiting for the Flux Capacitor to save the day.

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George K Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:23 pm

“We’ve gotten cycle life data on the packs now for 3000 cycle which is great.”

Well, that’s 8 years. Slightly shy of the Volt’s 10 years / 150,000 miles. Yet, I’m glad to see another battery maker with their hat in the PHEV ring.

Great interview, Lyle!

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Texas Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:30 pm

Very good interview! Thanks Lyle.

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Ed Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 5:37 pm

George # 75 They are talking about 3000 cycles at 95%. That is very different from the test cycles from A123 at 50% usage…

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canehdian Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:03 pm

#34, Don
I was merely referring to the fact that the wording seems like he’s happy or “proud” to say that they’re “all american”, but then he turns around and says “if we can’t handle it, we’ll go overseas”. I wasn’t implying that Asian countries were “bad” (I think the opposite in fact, but I won’t get into that).
Sounds like a politician to me – he can say one thing today, but tomorrow it could be a totally different thing

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DonC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:08 pm

canehdian@78

Yeah, I hear you. it’s great to have it be all-american unless it’s not!

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Chevy Beat Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Looks like Chevy may start bringing their Beat (tiny car) and Montana (tiny truck) to the USA. These are small non-electric non-hybrid gas-powered vehicles. Get ready for 40+ MPG !

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kent beuchert Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:16 pm

I don’t quite get this – supposedly Enerdel can obtain 95% of a 28Kwhr battery pack and yet the Think can only travel 110 miles?
The think is smaller than the Volt, which goes a bit more than 5 miles per kWhr, so why can’t the smaller Think go beyond 140 miles?
Is he really claiming prices at $14K to $16K for a 28 kwhr battery pack ($700 to $800 million for 50K battery packs) ? If that’s true why would anyone buy from anyone else? Some of these numbers simply don’t make any sense to me. I notice he doesn’t mention anything about power output of his cells. Or weight. If he’s going to make salesman-like claims as he’s doing, we need a spec sheet for his batteries to make a comparison. Or how about a comment from the other side of the fence?
I think it’s amusing that he avoided EEStor. If that device works as claimed, his company may as well declare Chapter 11 here and now and not drag things out.

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noel park Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:20 pm

#80 Chevy Beat:

A Montana tiny truck is exactly what I need. Tell me more!

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High Mileage Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:51 pm

There is a 150+ MPG hybrid on the road now that is powered by A123 Systems.

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High Mileage Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm

Here is a large picture of the 150+ mpg 4-door sedan powered by A123 Systems in a public parking garage.

http://tinyurl.com/64lxbo

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Kent Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:59 pm

Was about to ask what the 150 MPG vehicle was but it was shown in the next posting. Never mind!!!

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DaveP Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:11 pm

Great interview. I’m jazzed that there’s so much happening in batteries. The more companies that are getting serious about this the better off we all will be!

#32 GM Volt Fan:
The problem with becoming associated with something like a guitar is that eventually somebody will come along and stick Hello Kitty on it:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Squier-by-Fender-Hello-Kitty-Stratocaster-Electric-Guitar-512071-i1147543.gc
Hmmm, Hello Kitty \Volt edition! I think that would probably push Lutz right over the edge (not to mention the rest of us

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:12 pm

Mention of Federal tax credits for purchasers of plug-ins (EV’s and hybrids) and how much usable capacity (95%) there is with the EnerDel packs vs. the ones going into the Volt (50%), reminds me of why any tax credit needs to be based on usable capacity, not raw capactity….

The Volt should not get a bigger tax credit using only 8kwh of a 16kwh pack than let’s say a vehicle with a hyperthetical EnerDel 8.43kwh pack with a usable capacity also of 8kwh.

And Re: to MetrologyFirst… reread my post…. I did not say buyers will simply choose the lowest cost option. However you are dreaming if you think (pun) everyone can afford a possibly $40k Volt. A $20k or less BEV with a110 mile range and a $100/month battery lease is much more affordable to the masses. A plug-in Prius with a 20 mile battery only range for under $30k (and no battery lease) is also much more affordable than the Volt… and not only that sits 5 instead of only 4 like the Volt.

That said, I do hope lots of folks buy the Volt, as well as lots buying other plug-in hybrids, but I also hope lots of folks buy pure BEV’s as well, and also lots more non-plugin non-hybrid but high milage vehicles and let’s start crushing all those SUV’s like they did to the EV-1’s! GM sold the Geo Metro about 20 years ago and it got over 50 miles highway. They (as well as others) can do it again!

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:24 pm

High Mileage regarding the 150+ mpg 4 door sedan…

I think that’s actually a Prius with the Hymotion battery pack?

You do realize statements of high MPG are meaningless w/out details… that’s because the assumption is the car is driven X number of miles with the first Y number of those miles driven on battery power alone. You could claim it’s a 500+ mpg car if X is only slightly bigger than Y (obviously when X == Y it gets “infinite” MPG). The problem is the more X exceeds Y, the lower the computed combined MPG gets, til it finally approaches the vehicles base MPG as if you hadn’t plugged it in at all.

The more useful (but less flashy marketing and press eye grabbing) way to state any plug-in hybrid is how many miles does it get on a charge using no gas what so ever… and how many MPG does it get after that when the gasoline engine is on.

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JEC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm

High Mileage 182

I can put a picture of my 1999 Dodge Caravan with stickers saying it runs on recyled sea horse dung, and gets 1200 mpg….

A picture used to be worth a 1000 words, now it usually is worth about 0.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:33 pm

I will not lease a battery pack from anyone. No more than I would lease an electric car. It is just too easy for the manufacturer to recall it and terminate the lease. Then where would you be with your electric car and no battery pack. Sell me the pack. TED

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Jeff M Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Re: High Milage

Got the specifics on your Hymotion converted Prius… see http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/products/N5_range_extender

The fine print is “A123 Hymotion L5 Plug-in Conversion Modules are designed to convert Toyota Prius HEVs into PHEVs that can achieve up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles*” and “Up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles within electrically assisted driving range”

So if you drive more than 30-40 miles you average mpg goes down.

Also note that it’s a $10k conversion that puts a 5kwh pack in your trunk… that’s a whopping $2,000 per kwh! (granted I think that includes installation). Note also on the FAQ that Hymotion only has 6 cities they support currently.

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JEC Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Here are the specs on the battery, and yes installation is included (plus a lolly pop if your good!)

* Designed for Toyota Prius, model years 2004 – 2008
* ~ 5 kWh pack
* 4.5 hour charge time
* Up to 100 mpg for 30-40 miles within electrically assisted driving range

* Meets strictest emissions standards in U.S.
* Crash tested to federal new vehicle standards
* $9995 – includes 3 year standard warranty and installation

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Grizzly Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Ed #77

It’s already been mentioned that Gassenheimer does a pretty good PR job of hinting at Enerdel’s “superior” chemistry. It may very well be that at the same discharge depth, A123’s cells perform as well or better, however GM isn’t taking any chances with a 10 year warranty.

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Arch Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:04 pm

The game is warming up. Look for lots of good information in the future. We had lots of claims of 100 MPG cars back in the 70s.

Take Care
Arch

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George K Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:04 pm

#77 Ed,
“they are talking about 3000 cycles at 95%. That is very different from the test cycles from A123 at 50% usage…”

Ed, thanks for pointing that out. After I thought about it, though, it’s duration is still 3000 cycles. So, if you plug in each night, that’s still 8 years, whatever the distance turns out to be? NO?

So, granted they could go further, say 75 miles on 16 Kwh (which is great if true!), but the battery still only lasts 8 years.

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canehdian Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:36 pm

“And Re: to MetrologyFirst… reread my post…. I did not say buyers will simply choose the lowest cost option. However you are dreaming if you think (pun) everyone can afford a possibly $40k Volt. A $20k or less BEV with a110 mile range and a $100/month battery lease is much more affordable to the masses. A plug-in Prius with a 20 mile battery only range for under $30k (and no battery lease) is also much more affordable than the Volt… and not only that sits 5 instead of only 4 like the Volt”

Also, if the volt is 40k.. would you buy it so that you can use it for that one big trip a year? (or 2,3,X,Y big trips.. you get my point)
I’d buy the 20k BEV for ‘regular’ driving and keep my current ICE car for the long trips – it sure wouldn’t wear out for the few time’s it is used a year. (Think “grandma driven”)

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The Grump Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:37 pm

#92 Arch – agreed, but it’s 300 MPG claims now.

I told everyone this in a prior posting: EVERYONE is now trying to build the next “big thing” in batteries. It’s a new gold rush. The person who designs, builds, markets, and sells the best battery technology (that actually works) will become very wealthy, very quick.

Remember, we are still T minus 28 months until Volt rollout, according to Bob Lutz. Much will happen between now and then. We are going to see a LOT of alleged “better battery” breakthroughs in the meantime. We will probably have our dreams shattered when their promises fail miserably (EEStor, are you listening?). My Policy? I’ll believe it when I see it. I’ve seen too many 300 MPG “miracles” in the back of magazines (that never work) to get my hopes up anymore.

But some genius in a garage somewhere may see something that everyone else missed, and make the next big leap in energy storage technology. We need another genius like Nikola Tesla again. I hope we find him / her soon.

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Grizzly Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:08 pm

George K # 93

“Ed, thanks for pointing that out. After I thought about it, though, it’s duration is still 3000 cycles. So, if you plug in each night, that’s still 8 years, whatever the distance turns out to be? NO?”

*** *** ***

Yes it is 8 years. This is why I think that many are going to crack the Volt’s software and tap into that extra 8kw/h. The way I’m thinking 8 years wouldn’t be bad and who knows, by that time you might even be able to buy a replacement 24kw/h batt that could give you 120 mi range for a decent price!

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Jake Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:12 pm

#91 Grizzly – Good point. I am happy that another viable battery maker is out there, but at this point it’s hard to tell who is really superior, if anyone is at all. EnerDel certainly existed when GM was choosing the most promising battery makers for the Volt, but they didn’t get any contract. Maybe they deserved a chance, but I would be hard pressed to prove that A123 and LG Chem didn’t.

A random thought on thermal management. I bet if EnerDel were making the Volt pack it would still get a full thermal management system. GM is not going to play games with this stuff. A123 is a very durable chemistry, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t helpful to keep the pack in a nominal temperature range.

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Arch Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm

#95 The Gump

This will all happen. It always does. Look at the history of big inventions they happen when they are needed most. I do not care if you are looking at cars or Abombs. They just happen when the pressure is high. I know the Volt will work like they say. I just do not understand why it is taking so long. LOL

Take Care
Arch

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Battery Building Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:42 pm

#98 Arch

I think that battery technology has been ready for almost a year. It is all manufacturing and business stuff that is the reason for the delays. You cannot just drop a highly automated battery factory in your local hood and be cranking out batteries in a matter of a few months. These things take years to accomplish and interfacing with manufacturing, accounting, legal, government (must have tax abatements to build a plant) personnel etc.

Personally, I would like POTUS to declare a national emergency and force a monumental shift to EV immediately, this would require mandatory cooperation from all American Corporations – very similar to what was done during WWII. If this happened we could be 80 percent off oil in about a year. The move away from oil should be a “national security” issue of the highest importance…well NOT with this federal government i’m afraid.

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Grizzly Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Jake #97

Actually Enerdel could have been a potential supplier to the Volt. At the time that CPI and Continental were named, Enderdel did not have a PEV/PHEV program and therefore they weren’t considered. They do now, and I agree they look pretty good. The lesser of Enerdel’s two parent companies is Delphi, which has had it’s troubles of late, but who would argue that the Delco green eye wasn’t one of the best automotive batteries out there? I had one for 8 years before it finally gave up.

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pstoller78 Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 pm

Interesting article on bloomberg.com that mentions the volt.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEJvUUe4iUlU&refer=worldwide

From the article.

” Besides the Beat, GM is weighing a list of options for refocusing its auto lineup on fuel efficiency rather than performance. They include the U.S. introduction of a small pickup popular in Latin America and an expansion of the number of versions of the Volt plug-in electric car, the people said.

GM is also trying to increase production and speed up availability of the successor to the Chevy Cobalt sedan and develop a fuel-efficient alternative to the Cadillac Escalade sport-utility vehicle, they said. “

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statik Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 6:23 am

Just wanted to pop in and say “Happy Fourth of July” and all that to my neighbours to the south.

Have a good one!

(zero negative content in this post…huzzah)

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akojim Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 7:01 am

Seems like over the years, America has lost a lot of her independence. Let’s hope GM can help us get some back.

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!!

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Skip Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 7:45 am

Grizzly #99
Since their are several Ed’s on here I am changing my name to “Skip”. No, I do not believe that is correct. If they were to only use 50% instead of 95% the battery would last far longer and have many more cycles.

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Steve33 Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 8:41 am

If I were a GM engineer, I would want to get a few Ener Del batteries and test them in the Volt!!!

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Shawn Marshall Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am

Wow ,Lyle, this interview is a kind of door slammer. I th!nk it also points to an even brighter future for the Volt if GM can make the right moves.

What about pricing ball park from Mr. Gassenheime?

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Jerry Jones Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

http://www.wsw.com/webcast/jeff25/hev/
Audio Presentation from Jeffries including EnerDel

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George K Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

#99 Grizzly
“Yes it is 8 years. This is why I think that many are going to crack the Volt’s software and tap into that extra 8kw/h.”

And don’t forget to tell your friends on gm-volt.com.

An interesting thing with the Prius. I read where old batteries are giving just as good a boost as the new ones. The reason is, the software accounts for the age, and opens up the middle 20% wider, to account for loss of energy. So at the end of 10 years, the battery has less energy than original, but still gives the equivalent energy of a new one.

Not sure if the source is accurate, though it sounds pretty interesting.

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57silver Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

Yes, George K, I believe you are on the right track. Fully charging a battery to 100% capacity will significantly decrease the useful lifetime of the battery pack. However, very little lifetime is gained by only charging to 80% instead of 95% capacity. Most all the benefit comes in the first 5% reduction in SOC, very little in the reduction between 95% and 80%. I suspect GM is looking at the 10 year battery pack warranty with a little concern. They don’t want customers bringing their car back to the dealer after 9 1/2 years claiming “my battery will no longer power my car as far as it used to and I want it replaced under warranty”. As the vehicle and battery pack age, most likely the SOC will increase incrementally to near 95% so the customer doesn’t see a decrease in AER range, they will still have a useable 8kWh of capacity in a 16 kWh battery pack.

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Jeff Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

I agree with 95 Arch completely. Even if we weren’t funding both sides of a war at the same time (how nuts is that!), it is simply not sustainable to be hemorhaging money at the rate we’re doing now. The faster we get off imported oil, the better. The good news is that there is sufficient generation and transmission infrastructure available to do overnight recharging right now to support switching 84% of the US auto fleet to PHEV if we can find a way start after 8:30pm.

All we need is for someone in the government to say go and put some mony up to get the battery makers up the scale far enough to be economical.

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EnerDel update from chairman Charles Gassenheimer | driive Says:
July 6th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Auto Squad » Blog Archive » EnerDel update from chairman Charles Gassenheimer Says:
July 6th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
EarthChampion.org » EnerDel update from chairman Charles Gassenheimer Says:
July 6th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
EnerDel update from chairman Charles Gassenheimer » Hybrid News Says:
July 6th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
IEEE Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Interesting thread..and article… couple of points made that I personally find.. hiliarious

1) GM is known for ‘luxuries and styling’. Yeah. Just love the styling of those GM cars. drool drool. Drive any European car ‘luxury’ car and realize what crap GM has fed NA. garbage.
2) the VOLT is the leading EV vehicle and will save GM… too late. GM is in the toilet. GM stylists and engineers have built crap for too long and they simply can’t drop their Pontiac Grand Am mentalities. Sorry NASCAR fans but the products are garbage.

The Dolt is more bandaid than anything else… should elevate GM for a time… but the real players will decimate the field.

3) buy American. Only thing built well were trucks..and they are no longer going to be built in Canada..they’re going to the politically favored plants that are inept and dated. great. There isn’t one American built vehicle (other than Japanese plants in NA) that one can purchase without some sort of indigestion.

I can’t wait until the independents take over. These are the companies that will provide cars with 200 mile ranges, along with the styling and performance desired by consumers. Until then.. let us all enjoy watching GM fumble yet another play as the ship sinks.

The Queen is dead. Long live the Queen

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LazP Says:
July 7th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

I am disappointed wading through so much discussion of BEV. I thought we agreed to drop EV-1 discussion from the past or BEV which will be the far future. We should stick with the Volt and its ilk. Electrification and ice range extension. This is the near and most important future. Lets forget about golf carts for now. Kent #45 is absolutely right. Pure BEV-s will not replace real cars in the near-future.

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George E.F. Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

Anyone:

I didn’t read through all 119 posts, just about 87, and I am very curious about the real market for these cars – - – you have to plug them into an outlet.
I own my own home but need to park in the driveway because the “storage room” (i.e. garage) is too full. So— I will need to run an extension cord out to my car to plug in. Okay, no big deal, just keep it dry during rain storms and inches of snow(Detroit area). BUT– how about all those people who are in apartments? Even if they have some covered parking areas, I’ll bet there are no outlets! Then you have to deal with security issues for your particular outlet such as, vandals cutting cables, being sure your outlet isn’t being “tapped” by someone else and you get the bill, etc., etc. Can you imagine a parking garage or area with all those cables? A lawsuit just waiting to happen.
I really like the VOLT as a hybrid so I can charge the battery on the run. The idea of using an air motor to charge it works for me, or a small turbine that can use multiple fuels (even a bottle of vodka!) The technology could open a whole new venue for security devices, “smart” power cords, large volume/high pressure air compressors, and lots more!

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Jeff Says:
July 10th, 2008 at 11:11 am

Well OK – there’s an issue about recharging infrastructure. Here are some thoughts:

Let’s start with daytime charging: It will only be practical to consider plugging-in large numbers of cars during the day if we get a “smart grid” and an auto’s battery management system (BMS) is compatible – this permits the utility to charge when they can and draw on vehicle power when needed. But if it ever comes, it won’t be for some time. That rules out most recharging in downtown garages and office parking lots in the near future.

Nighttime charging in the home garage should be straightforward to optimize. Most power companies offer reduced overnight rates and will install meters to be able to bill accordingly. If the meters have the ability to start and stop charging according to the utility’s needs, then it will be practical for car owners to plug-in when they arrive home and expect charging to begin later in the evening, presumably around 8:30pm. It may be useful to include configurable timers in the auto’s BMS to provide the delay when the utility is not in control.

Just before moving on, I can’t help but raise the possibility that the on-board generator (53kw) in the Volt is 4x the power of my whole house stand-by generator. For the cost of a transfer box for switching one’s home to auto power, an external exhaust connector in the garage, a protocol for this mode in the BMS, and a high power interface and inverter, the Volt could serve ably to provide back-up power for as many as four homes in a pinch or one home for an extended period at a small fraction of the cost of a single back-up power installation. I don’t wonder that we’ve heard nothing of this yet from GM, it’s too much too soon for them to take on. But if they consider the problem and engineer accordingly, the car’s value will go up by $5,000 with the inclusion of a relatively low cost add-on.

Moving on – charging in the driveway. To me, this is the same issue as curbside charging in that an underground trench is required to power a national electric code compliant all-weather electric connection with both local and remote cut-off and provision to interface the BMS with a smart grid controller. In the driveway, it should be adequate to make the connection simple except that to prevent theft of power, when the connection is broken outside the home, it will not function without being reset from inside the home and it might possibly include an audible alarm to signal a cut cable.

In apartment parking lots and running along the street where parking is permitted, it would be feasible to install underground lines behind the gutter with taps for installation of all weather connections that included a credit card reader or a BMS identification capability so that anyone parking there can connect and be correctly billed. For homes with no driveway, municipalities may wish to consider changing the conventional “free for all” rule governing on-street parking to allow home owners one or two reserved spaces to make it make sense for them to go to the expense of installing curbside auto recharging facilities.

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life cycle data management Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
George E.F. Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

Thanks to Jeff 121 for the thoughts.

Your comments just seem to validate my concern: how can we, as consumers, justify buying a “total electric” car if there isn’t an infrastructure to make it user friendly? Yeah, there will be a rush to buy them in the beginning, but when you start hearing about the problems and complaining from your neighbor or co-workers, the luster will start to fade quickly. How can we get the power companies to lay “smart” cables or some other power control device before there is a bunch or mad consumers banging on their doors demanding they do something, or get the government involved? Heck, we can’t get the power companies to upgrade their systems to be able to supply the current power needs, let alone do something to charge cars. When it comes to free markets and supply and demand, if you can’t get power, you won’t have a demand for electric cars. That’s why, in my humble opinion, I believe the hybrid vehicle,( gas,diesel, methanol, ethanol, or methane with a combustion engine) will probably still be here for another 20 years. I really hope I am proven wrong, but I’ve been around over 60 years, and haven’t seen change happen fast enough in the auto industry, and I’m an outsider to the industry, but have had to deal with various OEM’s and suppliers in the recent past. I still remember reading an article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science back in the early 70’s(I think) about a guy who put a small gas turbine in the trunk of a Dodge and had lead acid batteries filling the underside of the chassis, just to prove it could be feasible. It had great pick-up, and better fuel milage than the standard cars too!

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Jeff Says:
July 13th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Cheers, George E.F.

Not all utilities are as recalcitrant as your experience indicates – PG&E in California, seeing auto electrification as a major opportunity, is being very proactive about providing high power recharging facilities and smart meters. They explain it making an analogy to hotels that prosper when they have a high occupancy rate. Utilities limp along overnight providing a fraction of the power that’s needed during peak generation during the day. The prospect of increasing their “occupancy” overnight doing vehicle recharging is a very profitable proposition because they’ve already covered capital and overhead expenses during daytime operations.

Considering the problems w/new technology vehicles we can look to the experience GM had with the EV1 that, on balance, was the opposite of what one would expect – it turns out that total battery EV’s are low maintenance. But thinking about it, how could it be otherwise?

For openers, the motor has one moving part and the litany starts with there’s no transmission and fluid to service. There’s no exhaust system or muffler to replace, no cooling system or antifreeze & water pump to replace, no lubrication system and oil & filter to replace (and no oil leaks to fix), no fuel system to keep clean and no ignition system or spark plugs, points & wires to replace, no air filter, no egr valve & O2 sensor, no fan belts or timing belts, no lead/acid battery to replace, and front break wear is diminished by regenerative breaking. Periodic maintenance on battery EV’s consists of rotating the tires and changing the wiper blades. The comparison is so smash-mouth, one wonders why we’ve tolerated this brittle technology for so long – I admit that since it appears that we need a crisis to make some obvious changes that I’m glad that the perfect storm of steep oil price hikes and the need to reduce auto emissions is now driving the process ahead in a forward direction (’sounds like Yogi doesn’t it:-).

But moderately priced full BEV is 5 – 8 years in the future when storage costs have moderated (they ought to develope like flat-panel monitors that have come down so much as their popularity grew) – I suspect the Volt will have a more conventional maintenance footprint owing to the generator and it’s many support subsystems. Looking forward for PHEV’s there are appealing possibilities for replacing the piston engine.

One that’s close to commercial availability is a dual rotor compound-cycle rotary design that grew out of the aborted Outboard Marine development project. It was taken over by the Mollier organization to provide high power to weight aircraft engines for it’s dreamed of personal VTOL aircraft (against all odds, it appears that they’ve got it off the ground). A Rotapower engine in the one liter class would replace what Chevy is using with an engine that’s possibly double the thermal efficiency weighing hundreds of pounds less. A material part of the weight saving comes from a NASA developed plasma coating for the rotors that allows them to be cooled by the fuel/air mixture as it’s injected rather than having an elaborate oil-cooling system used elsewhere. Because is has three moving parts and much simpler infrastructure, this engine appears capable of delivering many of the maintenance advantages of pure BEV with significantly reduced fuel consumption. And that’s just one example.

In all, I’m certain that it’s smart to expect the transition to auto electrification to take much longer than necessary owing to the variety of sources of inertia. But considering the challenge that the unsustainable trade deficit, high interest rates, a weak dollar, rogue producer government entanglements, and greenhouse gas emissions pose, the possibility of bi-partisan support for an all-hands-on-deck program to promote battery development and PHEV adoption in congress is not inconceivable.

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Plugin Wire » Blog Archive » Interview With EnerDel Chairman Charles Gassenheimer Says:
July 14th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Olaf Olafsson Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

I was invested in Energy1 (ticker; HEV) for a while but decided to get out at profit as I felt it was becoming to overvalued and also I did not see them mentioned anywere, not at THINK or at GM. But I did see 123A Systems and Altair (looks like a buy now).

Anyway it´s kind of funny to see how hated GM is, especially be the EV lovers, they seem to even wish it will go bancrupt even as it´s seemingly working dilligently on the Volt.

Americans complain about the gas prices, you should see them over here in Europe, even so I am thinking of buying a Cherokee Laredo V8 just to enjoy the last years of the gasoline age ! Here in Iceland we´ll be sitting pretty in our EV´s as we have dirt cheap electricity, but the problem is as in the US we have to get over our love of the dirty SUV, but perhaps they can become EV´s in time.

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Y aura-t-il assez de lithium pour les voitures électriques ? | GreenUnivers Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Even Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:12 am

Good interview absolutely!
Thanks very much!

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Embrace technology to turn nuclear energy into environmental solution November 6, 2009
From the Seattle Times: "STEWART Brand, author of "The Whole Earth Catalog," visited Seattle last week, promoting his latest environmental manifesto... […]
misslexi
Lutz to Head Opel November 6, 2009
Der Spiegel reports that Lutz is going to head up Opel: Spiegel Online(link)... […]
dagwood55
Do home chargers include meters? November 6, 2009
I conduct a real-world fuel economy survey (http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php), and will want to adapt it for electric and range-extended... […]
mkaresh
HHSE (Hybrid-Hybrid-Serial-Electric) vehicle invented November 5, 2009
A HHSE is a cross between using a lower efficiency but more functional serial hybrid drivetrain for city driving and using a mechanical drivetrain to... […]
Texas
Renault, Nissan to build $892 million battery factory outside Paris November 5, 2009
“This will be the center of our lithium battery production for all of our assembly plants and for other carmakers,” Ghosn said. “It’s a major... […]
Texas
GM to cut 10,000 Jobs Across Europe After Sudden U-Turn on Opel Deal November 5, 2009
Max Keiser on Russia Today. " ... General Motors cut ten thousand jobs across Europe at its Opel unit in favor of Christmas bonuses." -Max... […]
Guy Incognito
Nissan Releases Concept Sketch Of Light Commercial Electric Vehicle November 5, 2009
NISSAN RELEASES CONCEPT SKETCH OF LIGHT COMMERCIAL ELECTRIC VEHICLE _Link_... […]
Jason M. Hendler

Exclusive: Interview With EnerDel Chairman Charles Gassenheimer

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