EEStor About to Release Public Data on its Energy Storage Units (EESUs)
EEStor is the Texas company that has been secretly working on a breakthrough energy storage technology that is a type of ultracapacitor. The technology is reportedly able to store large quantities of energy in a package markedly smaller, lighter, and less expensive than lithium-ion batteries.
The company has formed an exclusive agreement with ZENN Motor Cars of Canada to begin production of electric cars using their technology. They also have a contract with Lockheed-Martin.
Few insiders have seen EEStor’s facility but those who have, and with whom I have spoken, came away impressed. Despite these grand claims and remarkable potential, the company has yet to demonstrate a working unit. When last I spoke with ZENN CEO Ian Clifford he told me functional production storage units were to be delivered later this year, and he advised me a third-party has been verifying EEStor is achieving their technological milestones.
A new report indicates that the third party testing data would be released within the next several weeks.
If the breakthrough is real, quite possibly lithium-ion batteries will have a strong competitor.
Clifford hopes if this all works out his company would really be interested in building ZENNergy Drive Systems, rather than cars, which could be used to power any 4 -wheel vehicle. The carmaking could be left to the large automakers, in fact there has even been contact at some level with GM.
I checked in with Mr. Clifford regarding this new report on the timing of the public release of EEStor’s testing. Whereas he couldn’t be specific, he confirmed the release is indeed "imminent."
It looks like truth or dare time is coming very soon.
Source (Financial Post )
Popularity: 6%
(13 votes, average: 4.77 out of 5) 
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June 27th, 2008 at 6:42 am
I soooo hope this isn’t a sham!
June 27th, 2008 at 6:47 am
Real soon now.
How many times have I heard this phrase before in one variation or another.
June 27th, 2008 at 6:52 am
RB #2: Exactly!
If this is such a “breakthrough product”, show it to the world!
June 27th, 2008 at 6:52 am
I am REALLY looking forward to reading more about EEStor, but I’m not holding my breath.
But I absolutely agree with Schmeltz #1, I hope it is not a sham too.
June 27th, 2008 at 6:53 am
#2 RB
“How many times have I heard this phrase before in one variation or another.”
7?
Slow news day I guess.
Good day to cut the dividend? I hope so. Necessary evil.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:07 am
5 Statik:
Nope, that is better for next Wednesday or Thursday in the early afternoon say around 2:00 or 3:00 PM EDT
June 27th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Agree w/ you Morgan….that cut will happen late Thursday as everyone is leaving for thier holiday weekend.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:12 am
I had read some time ago that the advantage of “ultra” capacitors, in theory, was their ability to release energy faster than a batttery. Thus, the problem of tepid acceleration between 30-70 mph often found with electric motors could be solved. Some have speculated that the electric car of the future (which is now!) would utilize both li-on batteries and an ultracapacitor for maximum effciency. Is it too late for GM to alter its design for the Volt (and still meet its release date)?
June 27th, 2008 at 7:16 am
#6 Morgan
“Nope, that is better for next Wednesday or Thursday in the early afternoon say around 2:00 or 3:00 PM EDT”
Thats dirty. I like it, lol.
They have until mid August actually to make that decision if they are going to do it this quarter.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:16 am
…ahh shucks, got caught up in the comments again….commenting on something other than the topic of the article.
I wonder if this EESU does become something viable, as I’m sure we would all hope…would McCain have to hit up his wife for the $300mil ‘reward’? Oh thats right he would be using taxpayer money for that…which I certainly have no problem with…I actaully think it should be way more money/incentive.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:22 am
I’ll believe it when I see it.
It’s almost impossible to deliver on the impossible…
June 27th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Jerry,
I would speculate that, IF ultracapacitors are secretly available now, and that’s a really honkin big “IF”, that they would not appear in actual electric cars for another few years. Therefore, Volt gen. 2, or possibly even 3. I would be very, very happy to be proven wrong though!
June 27th, 2008 at 7:23 am
This is a huge disappointment.
Eestor should have partnered with a proper company like GM, instead of playing hanky-panky with a small purveyor of golf-cart like buggies that no-one will want.
I wish never to hear of “ZENN” or that ridiculous “ZENNergy drive” ever again.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:25 am
I was the first poster today. I feel important now.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:26 am
When i saw the post title I thought it said “EEStor released public data” and I got all excited. Personaly I dont know what to think, I dont know much about ultra-capacitors. Though one thing is that it wouldnt charge much faster then our Li-Ion’s at home, because we can only get so much out of the wall socket.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:28 am
The inability to be certain EESTor is vaporware is hindering building production facilities for Lithium Ion batteries, because if the story is true, then the batteries become obsolete. If we were really at war, we would get a warrant and go in there with experts and determine the validity of the claim. If true, we would put the best and the brightest on it (like the Manhattan Project). But we are leaderless as the years roll by.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:30 am
#10 Murray
Yes we did. Although I’m not sure this topic is really to ‘near and dear’ to our hearts., it is interesting…but we have chewed the fat over it in the past.
I think the last article with the Zenn guy basically said the same thing. EEStor has a “great product, we are awesome…no you can see it, but you will…soon, and then you will be driving around with one almost immediately” Actually this article is only based off the Zenn guy again.
Why doesn’t this Richard Weir guy, the CEO say anything?
The phrase to me, “A new report indicates that the third party testing data would be released within the next several weeks,” says ‘nothing to see here’
The article says, “EEStor has said it expects its technology to be commercially ready within six months” Really? From third party testing in ’several weeks’ to distributed product in just 6 months? Amazing.
Also from the article, waaaay down at the bottom, “If for some reason EEStor is delayed, we will continue to use the best technologies available,” Zenn founder and chief executive Ian Clifford acknowledges
June 27th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Try finding out any information about Richard Weir (CEO of EEStor), look for a interview of substance, it’s like searching for the Holy Grail online.
I keep getting things like, “In my 10 minutes with Mr. Weir on the phone, I couldn’t tell if his barage of polite “no comments” was a page out of Dean Kamen’s playbook or Denny Klein’s”
-or-
“EEStor is not making public statements at this time”
-or-
How about, we don’t have time to make a website, we’ll hit that up later.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:44 am
This is all you need to know, the future of the industry lies in this link. All your questions are answered here:
http://eestor.us/
Truly this is the place for your commercially available replacement to ‘the battery’ in six months.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Here is insider information. Having lived in Texas all my life there are only two (2) possible outcomes to EEStor.
1) IT IS THE BIGGEST, BEST, BREAK-THRU “TECHNOLOGY” EVER INVENTED BY MAN
or,
2) IT IS THE BIGGEST, BEST, BREAK-THRU “SCAM” EVER INVENTED BY MAN
In Texas it’s all or none…
(Now, if they have a bunch of Texas Aggie Engineers working on this project, then #1 is true.)
June 27th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Van: It is possible that ultracapacitors could be used with LION batteries, and that the combination would be more efficient that ether type alone. These two devices have very different caharcteristics, and therefore, may complement each other.
Cire: it is not how fast the capacitor could be charged, but how fast it could be discharged that could make it a breakthrough.
Schmeltz: Only time will tel if this “ultra” capacitor is the real thing, and if GM uses it.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Regardless, I still believe Li Ion batteries will still be a significant portion of the energy storage. It is good to have ultra / super capacitors between the batteries and the motor, so that you get rapid discharge of energy, without hurting the life of the batteries. On the other hand, a full bank of capacitors may dump all its energy too rapidly, causing fires / electrocution, so there will be a balance, for safety reasons.
I also believe fuel cells will be the eventual range extender, as rapid recharging stations may be prohibitively expensive, compared to on-site hydrogen generation systems.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:57 am
In my long career in the US space program I’ve been involved in dozens of things in electronics that “have never been done before”. A surprising number of these worked out and became ‘game changers’. As an example, high-precision, high-speed analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion developed in the 1960’s by NASA & used on the Apollo program for the first time. Today we have CDs, DVDs, digital cameras, automotive controllers & and a myriad of other technologies, none of which could exist without A/D (and D/A) conversion.
However, the vast majority of these advancements were relatively modest improvements (2:1 up to maybe 5:1) over existing technology. Very few exceeded a 5:1 improvement in a single step.
My recent chat with a principal investigator at Georgia Tech’s Research Labs, who is very familiar with EEStor’s patent and is undertaking very similar research using nanotechnology & highly-advanced practices in the capacitor art, have been enlightening. His team’s best efforts so far (considered highly-successful by their peers) have achieved only roughly a 2:1 increase in solid-state capacitor energy storage capability. He is very skeptical that EEStor will achieve the roughly 100:1 gains they’re claiming. So am I.
But even a 2:1 improvement in the state-of-the-art might give EEStor enough of an edge over Maxwell & others in the ultracapacitor field to make their products viable. However, my best judgement is that EEStor capacitors will still need to be combined with large batteries in automotive applications for several years to come.* The question then becomes whether (EEStor + Li-Ion) would be more cost effective than (Maxwell + Li-Ion), or than Li-Ion batteries alone.
* Even if EEStor capacitors store enough energy for automotive applications, their very high self-discharge rate will require a backup battery.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:01 am
GM should leave no stone unturned. EEStor has something of interest, but it may be nothing more than a slightly better ultra cap.
Hybrids in the market place has spurred innovation to generate companies like EEStor, A123, and others. Of course, unproven claims does not help anything except to cast a cloud over the industry especially if the claims prove to be false.
Also, the ICE auto industry’s full acceptance of the electric drive vehicles helps immensely. Innovation of energy storage devces (battery, ultra caps) or media (hydrogen) is accelerating. Heck hydrogen may even become an energy source instead of a storage method.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Will like my Grandfather once said, “Follow the Money!” There are technologies already out there that could have got the World off of fossil fuels twenty years ago, however the powers that be are not about to let it happen. Yes, I know, we have all heard this before and as any person who has ever worked classified programs know “There is more between Heaven and Earth then anyone will ever know”, True Statement! Now, that being said until the establishment can maintain its cash flow (Taxes and profit sharing) and everyone gets their cut, no great technology is going to see the light of day on a large scale and everyone over the age of 40 mentally knows this to be true! I would like to hope that those individuals who control our environment and again everyone over 40 knows who they are, would have the good since to understand that if “We the People” don’t get some relieve (Cost of Living), then “We the People” may get up from our desks and do something about it, even if it’s wrong. I agree, hope this isn’t smoke and mirrors!
June 27th, 2008 at 8:19 am
What is that a cloth sunroof on that car/thing!!?
….and they plan on selling these in your neck of the woods there Statik (ie. the great white north)???
I wouldnt wanna get caught in a hail storm in that thing….I kid of course….because I wouldnt be caught anywhere driving that car/thing!
PS… you got me on that link you provided in #19 Statik, I should’ve known after reading the post before it.
PPS…thanks for your thoughts there nasaman #23, I was just thinking what does nasaman think of all this?
June 27th, 2008 at 8:22 am
OK… So EEStor is having a third party do testing to validate their claims. Does anyone know who the third party is? If the third party is a company no one has heard of and they just produce a press release, they really haven’t added much to the credibility of the product. Something more tangible would be nice; talk is cheap.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:23 am
#26 Murray
“What is that a cloth sunroof on that car/thing!!? ….and they plan on selling these in your neck of the woods there Statik (ie. the great white north)???”
Ironically, ZENN produce a couple cars a day now…but ship them to the US. They are illegal on the roads here, hehe. Go figure.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Hey oil is at $140 a barrel that is so cool! Can’t wait to pay more for gas at the pump. Hopefully soon we all will be paying $10 a gallon. Wake up AMERICA!
Does American made mean anything any more? Hopefully this product from Texas comes thru.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:27 am
#27 MDDave
I thought the same thing…who is the third party? Then I thought it doesn’t matter. Even if it is a legit third party, what is the review based on, what parameters has EEStor set for this review? Etc, etc.
Credibility is in the working prototype. Let’s see it.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Spalding:
I wanna working prototype….
No I wanna fuel cell…..
No I wanna see the final design of the Volt….
Judge Smails:
YOU’LL GET NOTHING AND LIKE IT !!!
June 27th, 2008 at 8:43 am
#30 Statik
Yeah… at this point, they need an extremely credible third party to produce a very detailed report. If the “third party” ends up being ZENN or even Lockhead-Martin, that would be funny. They need a third party with credibilty that doesn’t have a long-term financial stake in the project.
Based on EEStor’s past claims, I’m aftraid that even a demonstration before the press by EEStor would be seen as nothing more than a dog and pony show and be met with scepticism. So, a legitimate third party report is really needed.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Are these the same guys who have cloned several humans but don’t want to name them for privacy reasons?
Just wondering.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Now I’m ready to be less than hopeful. I’m saying it’s not going to happen. I want it to, it’s the discovery of the century if it’s true, but I’m saying, it’s not there. Reason?
“Clifford hopes if this all works out his company would really be interested in building ZENNergy Drive Systems, rather than cars, which could be used to power any 4 -wheel vehicle. The carmaking could be left to the large automakers, in fact there has even been contact at some level with GM.”
Why would you take a device that can probably turn a car sale into 50 percent profit margin, and hand it over to major car makers? GM is excellent at building great looking cars that pass every safety rule. What they are marginal at, is propulsion systems. So ZENN could buy an assembly warehouse, and turn GM into a very large subsidiary that supplies everything but propulsion, and sell it’s own cars in a joint venture.
Who says you could not retrofit 10 million SUV’s currently parked in yards with “for sale” signs in them?
Sorry, when someone says they have most important invention since the atom bomb in these economic times, and says “oh, we’ll just sell our stuff to the carmakers” then I have this prediction; they are going to convince someone to buy them out before the public ever knows if it was for real, and they won’t be heard from again.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I want to thank Lyle for walking the beat. Checking in with EEStor once in a while is the right thing to do. The EEStor story is one reason I am hooked on this blog. Will it pan out? Is it a sham? Stay tuned for the next development.
The Volt offers so much hope. The promise of EEStor amplifies that hope. Accumulated wisdom says, “don’t get your hopes up.” This is fun.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:25 am
It would be nice if EEStor was viable, but I don’t think it’s critically important EEStor succeed.
The most important thing is that car buyers get used to the idea of driving most of their miles on electricity. Lithium Ion batteries and cars like the Volt should get us there. Once the idea of driving all electric goes mainstream, demand will skyrocket. Car battery research, development, and production will explode. This will undoubtedly lead to smaller, lighter, cheaper electric storage devices.
Note that the same is true for bio-fuels. It only costs car manufacturers an extra $100 per vehicle to add E85 capability. If the government mandated that every car sold was E85 capable, then demand would quickly reach critical mass. Gas station owners would have a reason to offer E85. Soon, there would be a lot more people researching viable ways to get ethanol out of switch grass, algae, and other biomass.
So the key is to trigger demand. Once demand becomes obvious, research and development ramps exponentially. This inevitably leads to better products and lower prices.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:34 am
#33 nucboy says
“Are these the same guys who have cloned several humans but don’t want to name them for privacy reasons?
Just wondering.”
=========
Rumor has it that EEStor is using the old Supercolider tunnels for production and experimentation. They are probably cloning humans to work union free on the assembly line. Texas is a “right to work” state.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I’ve done a lot of research on EESTor, and I’m pretty excited. I’ve discussed the technical and mathematical problems that other capacitor people have with the patent, and the concept and think that EESTor does have something.
While we all want electric cars, even a pure stationary capacitor with EESTor’s numbers would be revolutionary. A large part of the cost of solar power is transmitting that power on the grid. If we could go off-grid, storing our own power in something like this capacitor we’d solve a lot of problems and make solar power worth it economically as well as environmentally.
The biggest thing I think this company has going for it is Weir. He’s a legitimate scientist with experience in the Hard drive area. Coatings and magnetic shielding, which has always been the weak point for barium titenate caps.
I don’t know that this is legitimate, I’m not investing in the company, or any sub company, but I have a good feel that they’ll get something that I’m going to want to own. Whether it can take the vibration of a vehicle or not I’m going to wait on.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Capacitors can explode.
I work with a former tech who used to re-work circuit boards. He describes a particular case of some old boards with exploding capacitors: the internal insulator was some kind of oil which “dried out,” causing them to short-circuit and pop in little bursts of confetti. These were normal capacitors, and the “blast” was no worse than the tiniest of fireworks (but hilarity on the workbench ensued, for “the new guy”).
Electrostatically charged surfaces repel one another, and a capacitor contains these in close proximity. A “100:1″ energy density improvement implies an unprecedented amount of this force, in a very large form factor. A similar explosion on this scale would be considerably less amusing.
My point is, safety with electric propulsion systems is not just an issue for batteries.
And yes, send a prototype to a National laboratory and end all the speculation, EESTOR.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Hm, on a related note, this is an interesting story:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/21/mercedes-wants-to-eliminate-petroleum-from-its-lineup-by-2015/
Apparently Mercedes plans to drop petroleum products from all of their new cars by 2015… I’m excited to see more competition in the space (as it improves my chances of getting one).
June 27th, 2008 at 10:12 am
In theory capacitors are energy storage devices and function in circuits as accumulators and their discharge rates can be used as timers. To function the EEstor system has to control the storage charge and provide for a controled discharge. Useing junk science and math it is also theoreticaly possible for 9 women to have 1 baby in 1 month. We are all waiting to see if EEstor is the real deal.
Note to GM: Quit screwing around with hydrogen.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Hey, if they can get-er done then more power to them. It’d be awesome.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:22 am
[Sorry, when someone says they have most important invention since the atom bomb in these economic times, and says “oh, we’ll just sell our stuff to the carmakers” then I have this prediction; they are going to convince someone to buy them out before the public ever knows if it was for real, and they won’t be heard from again.]
Hmm, if I had something like that, I’d totally want to license it out (non-exclusively, though) instead of producing product myself. Not exactly what’s going on here, but definitely the track I’d take. Then again, I’m an individual, not a company.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:25 am
#25 Jay:
Well, in case no one has noticed, I’m a fairly “liberal” person on most issues. Having said that, maybe the Supreme Court helped us out a little bit yesterday. Your thought has certainly crossed my mind as well.
#31 Murray:
No s**t, Sherlock!
#35 ThombDbhomb:
Well said. I’m keeping a good thought that it may actually happen. If it doesn’t, then we can all have a good laugh.
#33 Brad G:
Very good. Hahaha, LOL. Next stop Jay Leno!
You’re looking good this morning guys.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Amen Dr. Science….
Hydrogen = Diversion
I think Hydrogen R&D should focus on all transportation that does NOT include the automobile.
I currently drive a BMW and a couple yrs back they started focusing on hydrogen…..I was at first excited…..then after becoming more informed on all of the alternatives for powering our cars….I became disappointed knowing that my next car will not be a Bimmer because my next car will be an EV.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
#38 Greg Woulf
“I’ve done a lot of research on EESTor, and I’m pretty excited…The biggest thing I think this company has going for it is Weir. He’s a legitimate scientist with experience in the Hard drive area. Coatings and magnetic shielding, which has always been the weak point for barium titenate caps.”
Interesting.
If you could summarize some of your research, I’d be interested, I could find out virtually nothing about anything that goes on in any aspect. As for Weir himself, all I know is that he used to work for IBM on disk storage tech. I have yet to run into a lower profile CEO at a even lower profile/secretive company.
After reading about a dozen stories and ‘interviews’ it seems like occasionally someone trips upon his phone number, calls him and he throws out a couple ‘no comments’ and then when they ask for a follow-up or to talk again, he says no.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“A large part of the cost of solar power is transmitting that power on the grid. If we could go off-grid, storing our own power in something like this capacitor we’d solve a lot of problems and make solar power worth it economically as well as environmentally.”
I’ve posted this in another thread, but it’s worth a read, here:
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Xcel_Energy_Launches_Groundbreaking_Wind_to_Battery_Project_999.html
Capacitors or batteries able to store power on scales large enough to help utilities will be a bigger game changer for them than the EV will be for the Auto industry.
I’ve been thinking about this since the last thread that touched on using old Volt batteries for utility storage. Yes, it’s especially useful to be able to store the intermittent power output associated with alternative energy. But let’s imagine a future where something like capacitors or sodium/sulfur batteries (or old Volt batteries) have reached some kind of cost/volume/availability plateau which allows their widespread use.
Individuals may be able to buy power off-peak for use at high peak, sure. (It’s a given that people with solar on their roofs will buy them.) But what if the utilities install a couple of trailer-size batteries at your local sub-station, and proceeds to do the same sort of thing?
In order to meet electrical demand today, they operate expensive-to-built, but inexpensive to fuel “baseline” power stations which run all the time. It wouldn’t make sense to turn these plants on and off (nuclear, coal, etc), so when extra power is needed, other kinds of plants go online. These tend to be smaller and more distributed, closer to where peak energy is needed. Many of these peak-energy plants are fueled with expensive natural gas, diesel (even jet fuel); which competes with other sectors for fuel supply.
BUT with widespread, high-volume batteries almost everywhere, these expensively-fueled plants can be shut down. “Peak” and “Off-Peak” could come to refer to the load-carrying capacity of the power lines. Power could be distributed and stored at night which would be discharged locally when peak usage ramps up during the day.
Good news: this makes more oil and gas available for transportation, lowering it’s costs. It allows solar energy to be buffered whether or not individuals invest in the batteries. Overall, the utilities can provide the total demand from their most efficient, largest plants; perhaps eventually at a lower cost to the consumer (once new “baseline” plants are paid for).
Bad news: this could make “off-peak” meaningless for the end consumer. The cost of delivering power would be constant regardless of the time of day.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:05 am
I hope it’s real. Then maybe ZENN can make REAL cars, which they can then sell in Canada (they currently only have LSV’s - not legal on most roads here). Maybe then GM will rethink their price points - why would I buy their $40 000 car, when a company based practically in my hometown can give me something all-electric, for cheaper.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the volt’s great - if I have the money when it’s out, I’ll buy one. But their price is much too high for the majority to afford (even after a couple years when prices drop).
June 27th, 2008 at 11:06 am
#47 Jackson:
That’s what I’m talking about! I guess that must be where PG&E is trying to go with its old Prius battery experiments. It’s kind of like EEStore in a way. If it works, great. If not, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Unless it’s a stock scam of course, but I don’t have a dime in either one, so what the hay?
June 27th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the fatcat oil sheiks in the Middle East might freak out bad if EEStor’s ultracapacitor is safe, affordable, and can do all the other things they say it can do. It would be a VERY “disruptive technology” indeed. Not just for the transportation sector but for the whole energy industry.
The party for the oil barons would start to wind down pretty quick probably. No more Airbus A380 jets for the sons and daughters of Middle East oil sheiks to fly around in … like Emirates Airlines. This airline will have customized, pimped out Airbus A380s with plush king sized beds and showers for everyone on them. Gold plated everything and HDTVs everywhere. They can’t do without their luxuries during their 5 hour flights between 7 star hotels you know. Won’t you feel sooo sorry for them if their gravy train with oil prices ends in the next 5-10 years?
June 27th, 2008 at 11:41 am
I think EEStor is neither a scam nor a breakthrough. I think they’ve gotten some promising results that make them hope for a very high energy density when scaled up. Their secretiveness and lack of any prototype suggests to me that they haven’t been able to make the step from what they believe the theoretical energy density should be and what they can get in the lab. I’ve heard others in the university setting write about trying to do the same thing with barium titanate supercapacitors, and only getting a fraction of what they hoped for. My guess is they be off by an order of magnitude (factor of ten)
When all is said and done, EESTor will likely have a product that can be used in conjunction with Lithium-Ion batteries, but not to replace them. If I’m right about the factor of ten, they’ll end up with a product that will have an energy capacity of 100 kJ/kg, which while 1/6 the energy density of lithium ion batteries is still pretty respectable. With the two technologies working together, they will be able to handle the charging transients during regenerative braking much better, and probably extend the life of the batteries as well.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Might I be so bold as to ask to what purpose would the Texas company have to “hype” their EEStor technology? I want to wait to see the technology released to manufacturing and put to use. It will either work or it won’t. Let’s don’t start see things that are not necessarily there.
I hope it works and GM can capitalize on it as well as Ford and Chrysler. Sell the technology to foreign companies, but at a much higher price. Put America first, for a change.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Van # 16 says, “But we are leaderless as the years roll by.”
I could really get long winded about this one, but I will keep it short.
I agree 100% Totally leaderless.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Statik, # 19. That was a great link! Thank you for posting it.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Nasaman, #23. Thank you very much for your much respected insight.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
20 Brad G
That’s right, and all the Texas aggie jokes through the ages only serve to underscore your point.
Did you hear the one about…?
June 27th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
If true (and I’m a skeptic as well as it sounds good too to be true… maybe what they’ll end up with is something roughly equal to Li-Ion in density, price, and maybe it’s not a giant leap just yet)….
…. not only 4 wheeled vehicles… electric motorcycles, electric scooters, better power tools, better electric lawn mowers (the quick charge ability would really help alone), affordable electric lawn tractors (which now cost about $10k), etc etc etc
As for clean energy to charge them…. solar thermal just had a major set back, see http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/us/27solar.html?th&emc=th … could this be more Bush admin politics? Let’s quickly give oil companies more new leases, but stop very viable solar thermal for at least 2 years?
June 27th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
51 Noah Nehm……
I largely agree with you. As I said in post #23, my discussion & study of the current research at Georgia Tech convinces me that an improvement over current-art BaTiO3 capacitors is achievable (in fact has already been demonstrated by Ga. Tech). However, any more than another 2:1 gain in energy density is unlikely.
But even a 2:1 improvement could give EEStor enough advantage over Maxwell & other established ultracapacitor suppliers to make EEStor products commercially viable. And I agree that EEStor capacitors will still need to be combined with large batteries in automotive applications. The questions are then….
1) whether (EEStor caps + Li-Ion) would be more cost effective than (Maxwell caps + Li-Ion), or than Li-Ion batteries alone, and….
2) whether EEStor, having fallen so short of their originally-touted goal, will be able to raise enough money (with their tainted image) to bring even a very competitive product to the existing market .
June 27th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
#56 mien green says
“That’s right, and all the Texas aggie jokes through the ages only serve to underscore your point.
Did you hear the one about…?”
Zing!
Here’s your Aggie joke for the day…
Why is there astro turf on Kyle Field? So the homecoming queen won’t graze…
( is mien green for UNT? )
June 27th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
A few years back, Microsoft used to issue press releases on “future products” in an attempt to prevent competitors from selling their tech before MS could deliver theirs.
I can’t help but think these press releases may be an attempt to prevent investment in Li Ion batteries and fuel cells, in the hopes that ultra / super capacitors are the answer.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
#27 MDDave
and the verification was done by Southwest Research Institute, Inc. located in San Antonio, Texas.
Last announcement in January 2007 was about independently verified powder purities (booOOOooring
As bonus information in that press release, they said “EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles.”
Clearly, that didn’t happen, so it will be interesting to see if there’s new bonus information in an upcoming press release. But there may not be any press release from EEStor, directly, this time. Sounds like all the press is coming from ZENN.
Oddly, I can’t find the original press release at marketwire, anymore. Was it pulled… I wonder? Here’s findarticles.com’s copy of the original marketwire release.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200701/ai_n17125012
June 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Enron, yet.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
#60 Jason
I agree…
We need to develop Li-Ion now because it is a known technology… Get the Li-Ion cars on the road for consumers then concentrate on Capacitors, Fuel Cells, Hydrogen and George Jetson’s anti-gravity car.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Check out this article on EEStor’s ultracapacitor:
http://www.examiner.com/x-325-Global-Warming-Examiner~y2008m6d24-EEStor-Advanced-Capacitor-Best-Use-In-A-Hybrid-Car
“Because it is a solid state device, it should charge and discharge VERY FAST. Because there is no chemical change, it should have a virtually UNLIMITED number of cycles and should not be very sensitive to temperature. That means the capacitor buffering device can be relatively small.”
“A capacitor could also be used with a battery pack for plug-in electric hybrids (if battery storage is cheaper per wh). The battery in this car would not have to be as capable because it would only be used to recharge the capacitor.”
It sounds like EEStor’s ultracapacitor could be used for plug-in hybrids like the Volt even if they are initially pretty expensive.
Ultracapacitors could be like SRAM (static random access memory) or DRAM (dynamic random access memory) is with computer technology. Ultracapacitors would be like a very fast access buffer memory. The electric motor would be like the CPU and the lithium ion battery would be like the hard drive or flash memory which feeds and stores electricity (instead of the “1s and 0s” with computer binary bits).
Ultracapacitors would definitely give future plug-in hybrids and electric cars more acceleration power like nitrous oxide in IC engines. All kinds of possibilities for doing “quick charging” on long trips, etc. You could charge your Volt up slow or very fast depending on what you have access to.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
#64 GM Volt Fan
Hate to burst your bubble but the Dallas Examiner is the local free rag… Ranks right up there with the Enquirer and the Sun. I would not count on them as a solid source of information.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
65. Brad G.
The article came from the Charlotte (NC) Examiner. Here’s the credentials of the author which I copy/pasted. He’s an engineer, probably an electrical engineer it sounds like.
John Ryden
John Ryden is an Engineer with a background in Finance and Economics. Here he will discuss how energy production, energy use, and conservation affect us and the rest of the world with a focus on the economic implications.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Let us hope that Eestor is a real company with real results that are promising and not some sham
June 27th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
#57 Jeff M
My gosh, do you see a Bush boogie man behind everything. Give the poor man a break and the rest of us at the same time.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
#65 GM Volt Fan
I click your link and it comes up Dallas Examiner… Sorry about that…
My last word on EEStor is… If they are for real, great, the applications will be tremendous…
EEStor’s actions though smell of a scam… No comment, No comment, No comment… Also I love the articles headline (again).
“EEStor About to Release Public Data on its Energy Storage Units (EESUs)”
Keyword is “ABOUT”. This is like the thrid or fourth “about” I’ve seen from them in the last year. We are ABOUT to release public data. Call me “doubting Brad”… Let me see it, touch it, get shocked by it… then I will believe it…
June 27th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
#62 John Es
ENRON
(Now I understand why Statik has gotten so negative lately)
June 27th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
#60 Jason M. Hendler:
Gee, that sounds eerily familiar……………
June 27th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Brad G #69. I believe that you are right, but I hope you are wrong.
Oh, when I click on GM Volt Fan’s link, it comes up Hartford Examiner.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
The next article will read, ceo of Eestor is waiting for John McCains 300 million dollar x prize to come to fruition. lol
June 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
# 36 Dave G says:
“Once the idea of driving all electric goes mainstream, demand will skyrocket. Car battery research, development, and production will explode.”
I agree with the sentiment .. but .. it’s probably not advisable to use ‘battery’ and ‘explode’ in the same sentence.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
69. Brad G.
I am skeptical about EEStor myself. It would be awesome if their ultracapacitors are for real. EEStor just needs to SHOW everyone a real product that they are planning to put into production. They need to get their secret product out of the lab and into some test vehicles at least. When we see EEStor ultracap powered cars climbing Pike’s Peak reliably and safely (like LGChem’s battery), then they’ll have something.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/pikes_peak_ER3.html
Til then, you wonder if they are just “all hat and no cattle” like Ross Perot used to say. Believe me, I’d love for EEStor ultracaps to take over the energy world like ZZTop did with rock and roll back in the 70s and 80s.
EEStor is near Austin, TX. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the next huge oil demand destroying energy storage product came from Texas where the oil business has always been big. Maybe they could move out to Silicon Valley later if the good ole boy oil guys give them a hard time. Maybe that’s why they are so secretive to begin with. They’re afraid some J.R. Ewing oil dude might try to “get ‘em” or something. EEStor will sure hit a “gusher” if what they are saying is true.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Of course, the giant leap of technology that this devie would represent is the reason there is so much skepticism - it’s hard for people to believe that anything can be this much better than what exists today. Instant recharging, a lifespan probably measured in decades, not years, a size and weight small enough to fit virtually any sized vehicle, and to top it off, a price which is a small portion of existing battery prices all make it tough to buy into the claims. But some of the advanced characteristics already exist in battery technologies - almost instant rechargeability and a cycle life that extend for decades, like Altair batteries. Almost regardless of what the 3rd party report says, I predict a dramatic movement in ZENN Motors stock when the report is released, one way or the other - it’s hard to imagine a report that would leave the stock trading in its current range.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Jerry #9
It may be too late for 2010, but not for 2012. Now that a super capacitor has been developed that can get over 220 miles per charge and charge in a matter of minutes, do we really need the li-ion battery ? There’s too many doubters in this chat room, we need to be talking about American ingenuity. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. If Edison had been such a doubter we’d all be stumbling around in the dark.
I got the following off the net:
“To put this in perspective,” says Paul Scott, co-founder of Plug In America, “I drive an electric Toyota RAV4 with a 1,000-pound battery that is capable of holding 27 kWh (kilowatt-hours) of power. I could replace my battery with three EESUs, weighing a total of only 300 pounds, that are capable of holding 45 kWhs of power.” The additional power and reduced weight would more than double the vehicle’s 120-mile range and it would recharge in a matter of minutes off 220 volts, slightly longer when using household 110 volts.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Texas-Enron~=~EEStor-Texas
72 month intrest free financing available now for ICE.
120 month intrest free financing for Volt let’s me buy one. And goodbye gasoline, maybe the refineries can focus on heating fuel and diesel for the truckers.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
#77
Edison stole most of the ideas credited to him. Just like everyone.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
You are connected to the Examiner’s web-site closest to your location. Simple web programming to keep you informed in your local area.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Great discussion of *possibilities* today (but then again, that’s all we’re able to do at this point. SOON though, Soon. (I know, not soon enough, but soon).
As with so many things, we’ll know in time.
Be well,
Tag
PS the 92 minute clip about the Boussard reactor was great.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
N Riley
Might I be so bold as to ask to what purpose would the Texas company have to “hype” their EEStor technology? I want to wait to see the technology released to manufacturing and put to use. It will either work or it won’t. Let’s don’t start see things that are not necessarily there.
I hope it works and GM can capitalize on it as well as Ford and Chrysler. Sell the technology to foreign companies, but at a much higher price. Put America first, for a change.
to N Riley,
I could not agree with you more. “Put American first for a change”.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
What will probably happen to EEStor if they are successful is that they will get an offer they can not refuse. That will be the end of the EEStor story. Might come from our big oil or overseas big oil.
Look for our good “friends” in the mid-east to plow a lot of our money back into battery production or outright buying patents to enable them to continue being a leech on the automotive industry.
I know this is being a pessimist, but I just can’t help thinking that those guys over there are plenty smart enough to figure out that they they have a lot of loose cash and American companies are suckers for selling out game changing technology to our “friends”.
It will be interesting to see how we react to the things that will happen over the next 3 years.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
That Bussard reactor link again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606
June 27th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Off Topic….
I just spoke with a local Saturn Dealer who said they will NOT be allowed to add anything to the sticker price of the Vue 2 Mode Plug-in or to the Flextreme E-REV Plug-in. Unless this changes, which he says is very unlikely, it’s GREAT NEWS!
:) 
PS: Saturn’s Flextreme will have virtually the same drivetrain as a Volt