With all of GMs recent trouble coming from the crashing SUV market, they must be looking forward to the launching of their fuel efficient smaller SUVs. The Saturn VUE is on the verge of morphing into first a strong 2-mode hybrid form launching later this year, and after that a lithium-ion plug-in 2-mode hybrid version. The latter has the potential to be the first mass-produced plug-in hybrid to hit the U.S. market.
The 2-mode VUE is expected to get greater than 50% combined improved fuel efficiency . The plug-in version has the potential for 70 mpg although I have no official figure from GM. The plug-in VUE is a parallel rather than series design, and although capable of going up to 10 miles pure EV, on-board controllers will choose from the ICE, or a low speed or high speed electric motor, depending on what is best for the driving conditions of that moment.
I had the chance recently to ask GM’s director of hybrid integration, Mick Bly, some questions about these programs.
How is the 2-mode plug-in VUE program coming along?
We have developmental mules up and running on the plug-in VUE. As we announced we have joined in to two developmental contracts with two suppliers, one being JCS and the other being Cobasys/A123 and we are continuing to work with them. We have a lot of good data over the last year. Bench, lab, supplier, and vehicle data and we’re going to continue to work and decide which path we’re going to take in that particular vehicle program.
Are you pitting the two suppliers against one another with the idea that one will be chosen in the end?
No, what we’ve said is that we are going to develop with two suppliers, and we are probably going to look at others also, and we will make a selection on the best solution for the vehicle and then have one put forward into production, very similar to what were doing for the Volt.
Is that program further along than the Volt at this point?
Yes and no. Its further along in the sense that its getting all the benefits of a vehicle that exists, the VUE. Its further along because the 2-mode front wheel drive program is getting very close to production. That takes a lot of stress off my organization to really focus in on converting over to the lithium-ion plug-in system, the charger, the electronics, and the software unique to that. So yes its much farther in that sense but it still has a lot of integration activity left around the battery itself.
When is the target production for the VUE 2-mode?
The VUE 2-mode will be later this year, 2008. The plug-in as early as 2010.
Besides the fact that its not soon enough, the closest date I can get as to this year’s 2-mode VUE release is “a few months down the road” per a GM spokesperson involved in the launch.
This entry was posted on Thursday, June 26th, 2008 at 5:56 am and is filed under Hybrid, Original GM-Volt Interviews, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:02 am)Cool. Nice job Lyle.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:12 am)This should be a game changer!! Wish you the best GM! Keep up the good work and hope someday soon, the media will change their perception.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:29 am)Ford has been working on a Plug-in Ford Escape Hybrid for some time now, but whenever pressed for a production date, it’s always 2010 or later. 2010 is looking to be an interesting year for the car business provided they all can survive this Valley they are all going through. I really, really hope the Detroit companies can weather these hard times, because some of the products proposed to come,(the Volt, the various hybrids, the clean diesels) are outstanding if they can make them work.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:32 am)The more high mileage hybrid vehicles that GM and all manufacturers get on the road the better things will be for all of us. IMHO, it looks like they now are going in the right direction.
And the plug in version of this vehicle would be perfect fo my wife. She does mostly short trips, so her gas consumption would really go down.
The years 2010 – 2012 should be really interesting for us as purchasers of these new vehicles!
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:35 am)Lyle — Another excellent interview. Thank you.
It will be interesting to see what the prices are for these Saturns.
I was a little puzzled as to why the Saturn VUE plug in was said to be the first high-volume plug-in. Why would it be the Saturn and not the Volt, as both seem to be limited by the same battery and control issues?
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:40 am)If production starts in late 2010, and they only produce 10,000 in 2011, then we are looking at 2012 before we can buy a Vue PHEV. But we will be able to get a 2009 Prius modified as a PHEV in the summer of 2009, so it appears Toyota is three years ahead when the Green chip option is used.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:45 am)Its a complete puzzle to me as well. By now we know not to expect more that a 20% improvement, why bother.
The parallel hybrids are like a heath robinson machine, a complicated way of doing something simple.
Everyone is converging to 2010 when the plugins wiill change the game.
In the mean while,buy a Cobolt SS and have some fun.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:47 am)I hate waiting for things. It’s going to be a LONG 2+ years. ugh.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:55 am)That’s great Lyle. To be honest, if they dropped the Volt battery in the PHEV version, I would buy that over the Volt, but NOT if the AER is only 10 miles. An E-REV would be the icing on the cake.
Keep pluging away on this Nasaman.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:55 am)#6
June 26th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Van
If production starts in late 2010, and they only produce 10,000 in 2011, then we are looking at 2012 before we can buy a Vue PHEV. But we will be able to get a 2009 Prius modified as a PHEV in the summer of 2009, so it appears Toyota is three years ahead when the Green chip option is used.
Van, lets compare an apple for an apple, the Prius technology does not compare with the two mode transmission. I know with the Toyota people, you may think that’s not possible, but the two mode is a different animal. With it you can tow, drive normal and have the power when needed. Not so with the inferior Prius.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/06/detroit-2008-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid/
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:17 am)My game plan is to keep the old cars (the newest one just passed 100,000 miles) running for at least 2-3 more years because the auto industry is about to take a giant leap forward.
Even my mechanic is telling his customers to hold off on buying if you can because of this change that is coming.
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:31 am)From article, “The plug-in VUE is a parallel rather than series design”
I’m sorry. I see this as backwards. IMO the series design makes the most sense and is superior to the parallel design.
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:32 am)Really looking forward to the plug-in version. Does anyone know if it will have AWD option? If not I may not be interested.
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:34 am)9 NZDavid….
“That’s great Lyle. To be honest, if they dropped the Volt battery in the PHEV version, I would buy that over the Volt, but NOT if the AER is only 10 miles. An E-REV would be the icing on the cake.”
You’re not alone, David, in preferring the Vue over the Volt —IF the Vue’s AER was more like 35miles (which it COULD be if GM offers a 2 Mode version using the Volt battery & adjusts the control algorithms to allow highway speeds in all-electric mode, OR an E-REV version also using the Volt battery. Both are unquestionably feasible, IMO.)
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:34 am)Early update today:
Goldman cuts rating to ‘sell’ this morning ahead of the open. This is a big one, this will hurt the stock today unless we have some kind of wicked rally.
http://dailybriefing.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/06/26/goldman-downgrades-gm/?source=yahoo_quote
As I thought they might/should have done at the annual meeting, the dividend is under pressure to slash completely. Yield is up to 7.6% atm.
Note on the article: This is a good, well conceived vehicle, and one that is coming out now, which is what GM really needs. I hope they have the depth to meet demand. Plug-in Vue, like the Volt is way to far away…and there won’t be enough.
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:38 am)Good morning Rashiid,
I have more info on nuclear reactors for you. Here are links that Noah posted yesterday on Thorium reactors and the best news is that we have thorium mines in the USA.
====================
Noah says,
“I am, on the other hand, pretty enthusiastic about the Thorium based thermal breeder reactors, with their built-in passive safety features, and extremely low rad-waste streams. Here’s a link, if you’re interested:”
http://www.energyfromthorium.com
Here’s a bit more background on thorium reactors:
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1341
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:47 am)No Plug?
NO SALE!
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:48 am)Good morning, Brad G.
Thank you for passing those links to me.
I will read them during lunch hour.
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:53 am)What is the cosmic significance of the year 2010? It seems as if this date is when all the new EV’s and PHEV’s will hit the street.
It makes me wonder whether there is something coming down the pipe that will foil these vehicles. Some bureaucratic or legislative mandate that will kill off EV’s….once again.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:00 am)This is really what GM needs. The Volt is nice for the future but a ridiculously high gas mileage SUV that keeps its performance in towing is what GM really really needs. Nobody is questioning GM’s dominance of the Truck and SUV market. The real reason people rail against “Personal Tanks” is the emissions and fuel efficiency. Remove those two objections and MOST people in the US would prefer to have the truck or personal tank than the econobox.
Unfortunately for GM the addition of a hybrid to do all this (or a plug in serial SUV with RE) will push costs up and squeeze their margin big time.
Off Topic:
Saw a Chevy Nova on the road last night in darn near perfect condition. Amazing.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:01 am)Saturn Vue Two-Mode:
The all-new 2009 Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode, the first front-wheel-drive compact SUV in the world powered by General Motors’ two-mode hybrid technology, is designed for customers who want the outstanding fuel savings of an advanced hybrid and the full power and towing capability of an SUV. The Vue Green Line 2 Mode was unveiled today at the North American International Auto Show.
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode will deliver an estimated 50-percent fuel economy increase over the non-hybrid V-6 Vue. It also is expected to have a driving range of more than 500 miles (800 km).
In addition, the Vue Green Line 2 Mode’s 3.6L VVT V-6 engine with direct injection technology ensures there are no trade-offs between performance and fuel economy. Acceleration time from 0-60 is expected to be around 7.3 seconds, and the maximum towing load will be 3,500 pounds (1588 kg).
Production is slated to begin in late 2008.
“The Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode challenges the notion that a compact SUV can’t be both powerful and efficient,” said Jill Lajdziak, Saturn general manager. “Customers tell us they want a compact SUV that will respect the environment and save money at the gas pump, but they don’t want to give up performance and utility. We’ve responded with the Vue Green Line 2 Mode.”
The 2009 Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode sports the same European-inspired design language of the non-hybrid Vue, completely redesigned for the 2008 model year. Subtle exterior changes include “2 Mode” badging on the front doors and rear liftgate; and lightweight aluminum alloy wheels and low-rolling resistance tires that enhance fuel economy. The Vue Green Line 2 Mode’s appearance is further accented by chrome door handles, chrome dual exhaust tips and chrome skid plates on the front and rear lower fascia.
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode features technologies and refinements in the fuel and exhaust systems that classify it as a Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) in the state of California and other states that have adopted California’s motor vehicle emissions rules. When it arrives in dealer showrooms in the fourth quarter of 2008, the Vue Green Line 2 Mode will be Saturn’s third hybrid, joining the Vue Green Line 4-cylinder hybrid SUV and the Aura Green Line sedan.
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode is GM’s first application of two-mode technology on a front-wheel-drive vehicle. The system is currently on the V-8-equipped Chevrolet Tahoe 2 Mode and GMC Yukon 2 Mode full-size SUVs, and becomes available in 2008 on the Cadillac Escalade 2 Mode luxury SUV and Chevrolet Silverado 2 Mode full-size pickup.
How the Vue Green Line 2 Mode Hybrid works GM’s two-mode hybrid system in the Vue Green Line 2 Mode improves fuel economy by the following operations:
· Engine off at idle
· Low-speed, electric-only propulsion
· Cutting off fuel to the engine during vehicle deceleration
· Regenerative braking
· Energy-efficient accessory systems
Unlike single-mode hybrid technology found in competitors’ SUVs, the two-mode system maximizes city and highway fuel economy by integrating two electric continuously variable modes with four fixed mechanical gear ratios. The system consists of twin, active-cooled 55-kW electric motors integrated into the 2MT70 automatic transmission. Energy to power the motors comes from a 1.8 kWh, 300V nickel-metal hydride battery pack, which consists of 22 nickel metal hydride modules and is packaged behind the second-row seat below the cargo floor.
The transmission is mated to GM’s 3.6L V-6 VVT with direct injection technology. In the first mode, at low speed and light load, the Vue Green Line 2 Mode operates in one of three ways depending on conditions and battery charge level: all-electric power, internal combustion engine power or a combination of the two. All reverse operation is driven by the electric motors.
The second mode is used primarily at highway speeds to optimize fuel economy. It provides electric assist in addition to six-cylinder power when conditions demand it, such as trailer towing and climbing steep grades, and to allow the engine to run at its most efficient point under less-demanding conditions.
No engine speed changes are necessary for the mode shift to occur. The result is exceptionally smooth, seamless acceleration and responsiveness. At all times, the system’s Hybrid Optimizing System (HOS) collects torque-based data, deciphers it, then determines the most fuel-efficient means of propelling the Vue Green Line 2 Mode.
Direct injection V-6 boosts efficiency
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode’s standard engine is an advanced 3.6L V-6 VVT with direct injection, a member of GM’s family of high-feature V-6s. The direct injection engine uses regular unleaded fuel and represents one of the most sophisticated applications of its kind on a hybrid SUV.
Direct injection delivers fuel directly to the combustion chambers and permits a higher compression ratio, improving fuel efficiency. Additionally, the technology reduces cold-start hydrocarbon emissions by up to 25 percent.
The 3.6L VVT with direct injection also features a U.S. auto industry-first isolated fuel injector that greatly reduces the ticking noise associated with other direct injection engines. Other noise-reduction features include the use of acoustic foam in the engine valley and cover.
Specially tuned chassis for a smooth ride
Because the hybrid system changes the weight distribution on the Vue Green Line 2 Mode, special chassis refinements such as revised front and rear spring rates; revised front and rear stabilizer bar rates and recalibrated front struts and rear shock absorbers help ensure a smooth driving experience.
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode is equipped with a “fully blended” electro-hydraulic brake system that enables 100-percent regenerative braking (batteries are charged during braking), 100-percent friction braking (traditional four-wheel disc braking) or a combination of the two. During regenerative braking, the system converts kinetic energy to electrical power, then stores the power in the Energy Storage System.
A 12V rack-mounted Electric Power Steering system replaces a conventional column-mounted hydraulic system and saves fuel – gaining up to a half-mile per gallon of gas. It also gives the Vue Green Line 2 Mode more precise steering inputs and better overall on-center feel.
Intuitive displays keep drivers in the know
The Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode’s instrument panel lets drivers know that they’re behind the wheel of a sophisticated hybrid, yet with gauges that are easy to understand. An efficiency gauge replaces the tachometer, informing drivers of when they are achieving maximum fuel economy; whether the vehicle is in electric-only mode, engine-only mode or a combination of the two; and, because of the silent start as the key is turned, a telltale indicates when the vehicle is on and ready to drive.
In the center console, a full-color VGA power-flow graphic, which is integrated into an available navigation system, continuously informs the driver and passenger whether the vehicle is sending power to the wheels from the battery pack, engine or both. It also indicates when energy is being captured during braking
Vue Green Line 2 Mode is generously equipped
In addition to its high-tech propulsion system, the Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode boasts a number of standard safety features including four-wheel anti-lock brakes, electronic stability control, rollover detection system, pedestrian impact protection, tire pressure monitoring system, Pedal Release System, front active head restraints, and six air bags (driver and front passenger frontal and seat-mounted side-impact, and roof rail curtains for both seating rows).
Other features include power-adjustable heated outside mirrors, leather-wrapped steering wheel with integrated audio and cruise controls; and a six-speaker AM/FM stereo with CD/MP3 player and auxiliary input jack. A navigation system and power sunroof are available.
Saturn’s hybrid family is growing
The Vue Green Line 2 Mode is the third hybrid to join the Saturn lineup. Other members of the Green Line family include the Vue (4-cylinder) Green Line and the Aura Green Line sedan. They are equipped with the affordable GM Hybrid system, which reduces fuel consumption using sophisticated controls and a unique electric motor/generator mated to a 2.4L Ecotec VVT four-cylinder engine and Hydra-Matic four-speed transmission.
Saturn Vue Two-Mode Plug-In
Saturn announced today at the North American International Auto Show that production will may begin as soon as 2010 on a plug-in hybrid electric version of the Saturn Vue Green Line, expected to be the first regular production plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. Depending on a consumer’s drive cycle, the Vue plug-in hybrid will be the most fuel-efficient vehicle offered by a major automaker.
This Vue Green Line will use a modified version of GM’s two-mode hybrid system and plug-in technology, a lithium-ion battery pack, highly efficient electronics and powerful electric motors to achieve significant increases in fuel economy. When the lithium-ion batteries are fully charged, the Vue plug-in hybrid will potentially double the fuel efficiency of any current SUV. After electric-only propulsion depletes the lithium-ion energy storage system to a specified level, the battery is replenished by utilizing the two-mode hybrid system’s electric motors and regenerative brake systems.
“We announced late in 2006 that a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle was a top priority, and the fact that we’re now announcing production timing to bring the industry’s first plug-in to market, while tackling many technology hurdles along the way, demonstrates our commitment to diversifying from petroleum and reducing emissions,” said Saturn General Manager Jill Lajdziak.
In early testing, the Vue Green Line plug-in hybrid is capable of electric-only propulsion for more than 10 miles at low speeds. At higher speeds or when conditions demand it, such as brisk acceleration, a combination of engine and electric power or engine power-only drives the vehicle.
The vehicle’s lithium-ion batteries can be fully recharged in four to five hours by simply connecting the vehicle to any standard 110V household electrical outlet. The connection port on the vehicle will be integrated into the front fender. By recharging rather than refueling, the Vue Green Line plug-in hybrid reduces petroleum consumption.
A plug-in hybrid-electric vehicle differs from a non-plug-in hybrid-electric vehicle by offering extended electric-only propulsion, additional battery capacity and the ability to be recharged from an external electrical outlet.
The two-mode hybrid system to be introduced on the 2009 Saturn Vue Green Line 2 Mode will be altered for use with plug-in technology. In addition to plug-in capabilities and the modified two-mode hybrid system, the Saturn Vue Green Line hybrid SUV’s powertrain will feature two interior permanent magnet motors within the two-mode transmission and GM’s 3.6L V-6 VVT gasoline engine with direct injection. The lithium-ion energy storage system will be replenished by utilizing the two-mode hybrid system’s electric motors and regenerative braking systems.
The Saturn Vue Green Line plug-in maintains two driving modes – one for city driving, the other for highway driving – and four fixed mechanical gears to maximize efficiency while maintaining performance. In addition, special controls will be utilized to enable higher speeds during electric-only propulsion and maintain electric-only propulsion for longer periods of time.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:02 am)Sorry for the crazy long post.
Chris
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:09 am)#12 Rashid, regarding parallel versus serial
It seems to me too that serial is a better design, but I suppose parallel might be seen as a legacy, even though parallel is not that old itself. To the degree they have it already, it is not moving backwards, although it seems to me that these parallel combos are easier to describe than to make work in a smooth fashion.
Thinking conservatively, I suppose trying out both serial and parallel for a while keeps a foot in both boats, though that’s usually not a stable place to stand
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:09 am)#22 Chris
No problem, I read it all…interesting.
Am I missing something in this thread? Whats the price?
As always, a hybrid that cost more than 5K than the base, makes no sense, there is no real world advantage to the new car buyer.
Buying a pricey hybrid isn’t like upgrading to leather interior, or 20 inch wheels or the ‘turbo’ option. You GET something for that money. With hybrids you plunk down your money and get, well nothing really…worse performance in alot of cases. The only thing you are buying is a discount coupon for your gas station…it needs to be priced as such.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:21 am)As some here know, since this January I have been vigorously “lobbying” GM people at both decision-making and technical levels (Bob Lutz, Larry Burns, the Saturn GM, the 2 Mode Vue Chief Engr, etc, etc) to consider offering an added-cost option of the Plug-in Vue that achieves 35-40miles AER by employing the Volt battery.
I’d be happy to email anyone an exact copy of the 2-page “white paper” I’ve provided to these GM people on this subject (I hand-carried copies to Bob Lutz in NYC, as Lyle knows). Just email me for the “Vue proposal” at nasaman@earthlink.net.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:22 am)#15 statik
As a DogsOfTheDow follower ( http://www.dogsofthedow.com ), it’s looking like a great time to buy, if you’ve got the time and patience to go long.
I have also noticed that certain fund managers are starting to buy a lot more GE, another Small Dog.
“electric” everything? The next big bubble (in 5 years or more)?
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:22 am)From a VOLT faq:
(regarding the purchasing of Cobasys) – Does this mean Cobasys/A123 will supply LI batteries for the VUE plug-in?
No. We’re still in the process of evaluating potential batteries for that program and have nothing to announce at this time. Our purchase of Cobasys is based on their battery integration expertise and experience with NiMH. They are a key supplier of NiMH batteries for the Aura, VUE and Malibu hybrids.
Is GM considering investments in other battery suppliers?
Not at this time, but we always keep our options open. Battery technology will play major role in future automotive propulsion systems. We view our investment in Cobasys, and our relationship with other battery suppliers (Hitachi, A123Systems, LG Chem, etc.) as a strategic advantage.
24. Where will the engine be built for the US applications?
We aren’t ready to discuss the manufacturing location for this engine for the US applications. (Note: We announced at the GM Powertrain Technology Show in Europe on May 15, that the 1.4-liter turbocharged engine will be manufactured at the GM Powertrain assembly facility in Aspern, Austria.)
25. The range-extender on the Volt is expected to be a Family 0 derivative. Will this engine be used for this program as well?
Eventually, a non-turbocharged version of this engine could serve as the range extender for the E Flex System. We still have development work to do.
26. Will the Chevrolet Cobalt and Saturn Astra be the first US vehicles to get this engine?
I am not going to confirm the US small car applications today, but stay tuned.
27. Is this GM’s answer to meet the new CAFE standards?
Certainly, 4-cylinder engines, including turbocharged and direct-injected engines, will continue to play an important role in our continual efforts to deliver improved fuel economy to our customers. Today, GM already offers a number of turbocharged and direct-injected engines, and we will continue to roll-out these technologies across our portfolio in future applications.* Diesel engines, hybrids, plug-in hybrids, extended range electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will also have a role. Over the next four years, GM will introduce 16 new hybrid models, an average of one every three months. And, we are intensifying our development of electrically-driven vehicles, like the Chevy Volt.
Details announced previously at the GM Powertrain Technology Show in Europe (May 15, 2008) on the 1.4-liter Turbo engine:
- Will be used in vehicles worldwide starting in 2010.
-1.4-liter (1364 cc) displacement
Turbocharged variant of small gasoline engine family
Dual Independent Cam Phasing
Turbocharger is integrated into exhaust manifold
Assembly site for European production: Aspern, Austria
*In the U.S., GM already produces the 2.0-liter turbocharged direct-injection Ecotec engine in the Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice and Chevrolet HHR SS. The 3.6-liter direct-injection V-6 is used in the Cadillac CTS and the STS.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:25 am)The thing a lot of people don’t understand is that what these hybrid vehicles are achieving in fuel economy don’t even come CLOSE to what 90s era Saturns achieved. I’m talking 30-40mpg minimum. Ask anyone who owned an S or L Series Saturn… excellent gas mileage…. but the economy was good throughout the 90s and gas prices were low, so fuel economy was something that customers were definitely not caring/thinking about at that time.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:28 am)#24, Statik, I don’t have a link handy but Lutz said $8 or $9K for the hybrid option and anticipated another $8K or $9K for the later plug-in upgrade. Other sources have suggested $10K for the hybrid option and another $10K for the plug-in upgrade.
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:45 am)I predict the first big auto maker to start selling a lithium-ion plug-in, will be the victor.
Meaning:
1. Big Sales
2. Customer recommendations
3. More Sales
4. Breathing room to roll out other technology
5. Biggest market share
6. $$ Even more Sales $$
7. 3 digit stock price $$$
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:50 am)It would be nice if the Vue was a little smaller and a lot lighter. The Vue is 525 pounds heavier than the Toyota RAV4, and 436 pounds heavier than the Honda CR-V. Here are the stats right from the Saturn web site:
Curb Weight
2008 SATURN VUE FWD 4-Cylinder XE – 3825 lbs
2008 HONDA CR-V LX 2WD 5-Spd AT – 3389 lbs
2008 TOYOTA RAV4 Base I4 4X2 – 3300 lbs
See here for details:
http://www.saturn.com/comparator/compareVehicle.do?divisionCode=sa&languageCode=EN&modelYear=2008&model=vue&style=VUE%20FWD%204-Cylinder%20XE&baseVehicleId=7560&msrp=21395.00
(click on “Dimensions”)
They even have check marks next to the larger dimensions, like this is a good thing. When will GM realize that bigger and heavier is worse?
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:50 am)Statik, wsallender …. and all of the who keep a watchful eye on the happenings on Wall Street….you might want to wait out today before jumping in. I know its never good to try to time the market but….
Today is going to be a rough one!
I think GM is already down 10% today, its gonna be ugly
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:57 am)Dave G
I think the website may be incorrect. Curb Weight should be 3292…. even the V6 and Hybrids don’t weight as much as 3825.
Chris
Jun 26th, 2008 (8:59 am)About a year ago it dawned on me that the dual mode system offered an easy way to go plug-in and that it would be available anywhere the dual mode is. Seems to me that once you make a dual mode into a plug-in, then any other vehicle that would use that dual mode system would immediately be able to add the plug-in option. Mostly a matter of finding places to locate the batteries I
suspect.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:01 am)My wife & I looked at the 4 cylinder hybrid Vue last month.
The new 2 mode version would be better for us – 10 miles all electric would fit our lifestyle better. I commute 2.5 miles each way.
But GM needs to put bluetooth in all of their vehicles!!!! in the State of Washington it is law to be hands free and the stubborn GM execs don’t offer an elegant solution for this like Ford does. Get over the ONStar only solution. I don’t need to pay for 2 phone systems.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:07 am)#26 wsallender
“Statik, As a DogsOfTheDow follower,it’s looking like a great time to buy, if you’ve got the time and patience to go long.”
I have been trading along time. And you right, historically these are the times where the real money is made…when prices are low. I usually have a high tolerance for risk.
However, and I think this is no shock to the people on the board who read my posts, I’m more than a little worried at the moment. While trading on historical indicators, cyclical events and picking up value dividends seems like a no brainer, I’m not going to do it this time around.
There are ‘special factors’ right now, that can’t easily be plugged into past models, therefore it is difficult to see where the bottom lies. Inflation, credit crunch, accessibilty to financing, oil pricing, devaluation of the US dollar, national debt burn and of course the housing crash.
For myself, I hope to be totally liquid and get back in it later. My cue to return will be a year over year increase in housing prices -AND- increasing housing starts -AND- the stabilization of the dollar.
The problem with following a ‘system’ too closely, like Dogs of the Dow, is that you miss some of the larger picture. The larger picture is the dollar index has gone from 120 to 72 since 2002. If you stayed US bases over that time, you need to be up 66% to break even.
ie) You need $166,000 USD in 2008 to equal the purchasing power of $100,000 in 2002
This is why when you flick on the tv and see the DOW at 11,500, you say, well thats not too bad, it’s holding up not too bad…well it’s not, it’s breaking down incredibly fast.
The Dow was at around 10,000 in 2002…to be even money (value of dollar) it needs to be at almost 17,000 right now, then you need you to tag on average inflation, about 13% over that time (6 years), or 19,000 just to break even. Given a reasonable return expectation of say 7%, and the DOW needs to be north of 30,000 to be doing ‘ok’
Case in point, I’m 95% away from US securities, (default advantage because I am Canadian, so I understand and invest here more easily). Six years ago my dollar was worth .about 62 cents US, and the TSX was at 7,000. Today, the dollar is worth about a US dollar, a 66% percent gain…and the TSX has doubled.
By ‘seeing the trend’ and just get market returns that same $100,000USD converted to Canadian is worth $160,000US now and the TSX, which is commodity based has doubled, so its worth 320,000 if I convert back to USD today.
No fancy system, no technical numbers, no looking at moving day averages, just being aware of the economy.
So for me, I’m looking at the coin from the other side, I have had a great run, now I’m taking my cash off the table for awhile. I fear the spillover/collapse …and I don’t have the same understanding of whats happening now as I did in the past, and when you don’t know, your better off taking a breather. Maybe you think you have a read on it…if so, go for it.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:08 am)Bluetooth will come either standard or as an option for ALL 2009 GM Vehicles. FYI.
Chris
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:10 am)I always wanted to know, If we never plug in a Volt and drive it like you drive Prius, how many miles do we get for a gallon.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:11 am)GM needs to start advertizing this vehicle, so that potential Prius buyers can hold off for a few months to buy the Saturn.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:12 am)Again GM proves it products superior but fall far short on price. There is no reason a parallel hybrid (non-plugin) should cost more than a 2k dollars more. The prius has proven that! 6K bump for the plugin over the non-plugin is the other price point that needs to be met.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:15 am)35 Dale:
EGO Cup…cost you about $70 dollars. Bluetooth hands free and you can take it to any of your vehicles.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:30 am)bruce g:
heath robinson = rube goldberg?
Brad G
The US has the world’s largest known Thorium reserves, after Australia. Ironically, most active research into Thorium reactors is taking place in India, which doesn’t have much, but almost nothing else that might be used as nuclear fuel.
Chris
Links are better
.
You can get good mileage out of an SL2 even in town (I’ve had 2), but you need the five-speed and a lot of experience using it.
===
The 2-mode is 2-little, 2-late. It is a patiently, properly engineered extension of the Prius system, superior in nearly every way. Too bad it’s so far behind the curve.
It is still the best potential answer for people who buy a large vehicle (such as a pickup or SUV) to occasionally tow something, and then use as a commuter the rest of the time (the parallel drive train doesn’t require an electric motor/battery powerful enough for towing). This was, until recently, the biggest segment of the non-commercial truck market. As gas prices continue to rise, this will become less attractive than buying a commuter-only vehicle, and maybe renting a truck for that 5 – 6 times a year it’s actually needed for towing.
2-bad.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:33 am)Bruce G @ #7. I used to be in the same frame as you: “20%, why bother.” But if you HAVE to have an SUV, you have to look at it this way: a 20% improvement on a low mpg vehicle is worth more than a 20% improvement on a high mpg vehicle. Example:
1000 miles/15 mpg = 66.6 gallons used
1000 miles/18 mpg = 55.5 gallons used = 11.1 gallons saved per 1000 miles by 20% improvement (or about $45 per month).
v.
1000 miles/30 mpg = 33.3 gallons used
1000 miles/36 mpg = 27.7 gallons used = 5.6 gallons saved per 1000 miles by 20% improvement
Counter-intuitively, a 3 mpg improvement for a gas guzzler is worth more than a 6 mpg improvement on a relatively efficient car. And even a relatively modest-appearing % improvement in mpg for a guzzler can yield decent results. I don’t look at 20% and say, “why bother” anymore. I’m looking at the vehicle and saying, does it work for me, and is there something better (a plug-in) just around the corner?
GM – I want a plug-in Saturn Outlook, please.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:34 am)#29 Dagwood
“Statik, I don’t have a link handy but Lutz said $8 or $9K for the hybrid option and anticipated another $8K or $9K for the later plug-in upgrade. Other sources have suggested $10K for the hybrid option and another $10K for the plug-in upgrade”
Wow! If that’s the case, it’s a total dog. It’s 22K for a Vue (+plus you get another $2,500 off for cash purchase), 32K for a hybrid and 42 for a plug-in?
Again, a ‘hybrid system’ is not 20 inch rims, it’s a ‘value add,’ if you price it above the value…it’s worthless, at least to most.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:40 am)#32 Murray
“Statik, wsallender …. and all of the who keep a watchful eye on the happenings on Wall Street….you might want to wait out today before jumping in. I know its never good to try to time the market but….Today is going to be a rough one! I think GM is already down 10% today, its gonna be ugly”
Don’t have to tell me. I’m so far out, I’m in another country, in more ways than one.
#15 Me.
“Goldman cuts rating to ’sell’ this morning ahead of the open. This is a big one, this will hurt the stock today unless we have some kind of wicked rally”
GM is at $11.59 off $1.22 (-9.5%)
They are responding to the cut, yes. But more than that, they are getting in front of next week’s ‘come clean’ week’… where they have to release sales.
After last month’s “surprise, we have be ‘finking’ the numbers for along time, now we are coming clean at the annual meeting, fiasco,” the market is anticipating a even further, “ok, now we are really, really coming clean, honest believe us” number. Which they will get.
The times of GM/Ford/Chrysler being able to hide in the bushes are over…they know it. Now it’s in their best interest to be “as honest and transparent as they can” Fear the reaper.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:41 am)#28 Chris,
Funny you would mention the Saturn S series, I had one and I would get 30+ in the city. I drove from Chicago to Florida and got above 40 mpg. What has happened since then to make all the saturns get considerablly less? If they brought back the Saturn S, like it was in 1999 (I think that was my model year, had the curved panels), I’d pony up the money today to get one.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:49 am)#19 jabroni [What is the cosmic significance of the year 2010?]
Have you ever heard of the Mayan “calendar”?
According to the Mayans, we are in the 6th night of the current cycle; Nov 14, 2009 – Nov 9, 2010. Dawn occurs Nov 10, 2010 – a very, very major new day for mankind.
I remember when some folks claimed the moon & stars Proctor & Gamble logo was proof positive that they were in cahoots with the devil.
Well, maybe auto manufactures are all in cahoots with the Mayans.
I believe Volt spelled backwards is Tlov, an ancient Mayan god whose name meant ‘he who rides the lightening’.
Jun 26th, 2008 (9:54 am)Jackson @ 42
.”
“Links are better
Well said.
Also, there are a ton of brilliant people on here who I enjoy reading daily, others need to go to Wall Street blogs or start your own to go off on these me-centric tangents because you are sucking up the oxygen. Please try to relate posts to the article, or at least the Volt.
Thank you.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:07 am)#25 nasaman says: “since this January I have been vigorously “lobbying” GM people … to consider offering an added-cost option of the Plug-in Vue that achieves 35-40miles AER by employing the Volt battery.”
The Vue is too big and heavy (see my previous post about this). Also, the height is problematic for aerodynamics.
What we need is something more like the Hypercar:
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=2515
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:10 am)akojim
I thought that was 2012?
I think the lightning guy was Zeus
.
===
About the Vue. Yes, I’m a loyal Saturn customer. No, I don’t need a vehicle that large. If I think I may have a shot at a real electric (EREV/Volt variant), I won’t spend money now that I’ll need to pay for it then. If I need a car before it comes out, I’ll get an Astra or it’s Cobalt-replacement equivalent, and wait.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:20 am)Ash #38. says, “I always wanted to know, If we never plug in a Volt and drive it like you drive Prius, how many miles do we get for a gallon.”
Ash, I believe it is 50 MPG.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:30 am)Newsworthy:
GM off 12% now
$11.28 -$1.53.
Market cap at 6.5billion. Yield on dividend that will never be paid close to 9%.
Because I know Jason M. Hendler doesn’t like me to just shove updates, I’ll add my educated guess for next weeks sales numbers from GM.
Year-over-year sales drop I figure is about 39%. I figure that guess, or actually ones more conservative than mine is what is spooking GM today. (…and the downgrade, lol).
However, I will also predict the Vibe obliterates it’s own numbers. The Vibe is the PERFECT vehicle right now, best of all worlds. With usual strength from the ‘econobox’ segment of Aveo, Cobalt…and to some degree Mailibu (if they kept production up with demand),
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:32 am)Rashiid # 51.
Thanks Rashiid, I think that is important too. I dont see anyone talking about that, Where did you get that number, 50 MPG.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:32 am)#38 Ash
“I always wanted to know, If we never plug in a Volt and drive it like you drive Prius, how many miles do we get for a gallon.”
And just to add to Rashiid’s comment, we’d also come to your door and give you the world’s greatest wedgie if you actually did this. Hehe.
“…were did you get that number, 50MPG”
It came from extrapolating the numbers from the proposed 3 cyclinder (which GM has in production, lol). If we get the new 4 cyclinder it might be off by 10% or so.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:39 am)54 Statik:
Has anyone done a new analysis on that? I read the 3 cylinder (backed by Wikipedia sparse data) was cast iron vs. the 4 cylinder being aluminum and the 3 cylinder turbo vs. the 4 cylinder normal was all pretty much a wash efficiency wise. The move to the 4 cylinder HAS increased the KWH by about 10 however.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:44 am)Ash, #53.
It is pretty widely known by us here, however, you can check this link:
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/
Q: How many miles per gallon will the Chevy Volt get?
A: A bit of a trick question. For the first 40 miles it will get infinite mpg, because no gas will be burned. When the generator starts, the car will get an equivalent of 50 mpg thereafter. One can calculate the average mpg per for any length drive starting with a full battery: Total MPG = 50xM/(M-40)
AND
Q: What is the cost of operation of the car
A: With current average U.S. electric rates of ~10 cents/kwh it should cost 80 cents to drive for the first 40 miles, and then get 50 mpg thereafter using gasoline (market rate).
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:45 am)Just got some interesting news from the wife… she bought a used ’05 Vue 4-banger last year. She loves it.
Her Saturn dealer just called her and basically made her an offer to buy it from her in order to put her in an ’08. Offering her a 0% / 60month finance deal…
My advice to her is to have Saturn tell her when/if they will be getting the new 2-modes and if the same offer will apply….
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:47 am)Murray, #57. That was good thinking on your part. Good luck.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:48 am)#55 Morgan
“Has anyone done a new analysis on that? I read the 3 cylinder (backed by Wikipedia sparse data) was cast iron vs. the 4 cylinder being aluminum and the 3 cylinder turbo vs. the 4 cylinder normal was all pretty much a wash efficiency wise. The move to the 4 cylinder HAS increased the KWH by about 10 however.”
I seriously doubt it, the 50 MPG was pure conjecture, best guess, but I imagine it will be in that range. Everyone is wrapped up in the EV end, I think the resulting MPG of the ICE is not at the top of the list at all.
To be honest, I really don’t care if it is 40MPG or 60MPG. That is one item that I, as a customer, could give a hoot about. I’m completely fine with GM breaking that one. I mean I’d rather it be 50MPG than 40MPG obviously, but I’m not buying the car even remotely based on the ICE. In my mind, I’m buying a 4 seat EV.
When I go out my door to travel, I am either going 30 miles or 1,000, hardly anything in between…and when I go a 1,000 I take a plane, lol.
(Don’t get me started on the ‘added premiums’ to air fares…ridiculous. Where is my personal EV jet/flying car already? What size battery pack do I need for that? I know, lets strap some solar panels to it, surely that would be good enough…or hydrogen! Tasty hydrogen could do it easy)
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:50 am)#46 JAK, The Astra is 500 lbs heavier, somewhat wider and taller and has a much more powerful engine.
That’s why it gets worse fuel economy.
On the plus side, it’s probably safer.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:59 am)59 Statik:
No, but a Bussard Fusion Reactor could do it!
Peer review in August. Keep your fingers crossed.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:03 am)#61 Morgan
“No, but a Bussard Fusion Reactor could do it! Peer review in August. Keep your fingers crossed”
I hate you.
I kidd….no seriously I do…I kidd, seriously.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:08 am)62 Statik:
Haha!
Hey, they have plasma and neutrons, interesting current results, and a blue ribbon who’s who of high energy particle physics on the peer review panel. That is a LOT more than EESTOR has going for it you have to admit.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:10 am)#50Jackson: Zeus? Hmmm…. Well, the problem might be that I’m not Mayan, not that there is anything wrong with that. The guys that maintain my yard are Mayan. Um… or maybe Guatemalan, I get them confused.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:12 am)I think it would be cost overhead to GM if they they give contract to
A123/Cobasys for Vue and LG Chem/CPI for Volt. They will be better off if they do the following.
1) Continental and GM should acquire Cobasys completely on 50:50 basis.
2) Build Vue and Volt batteries in the same facility using A123 cells.
The above has lot of advantages.
1) Cost of A123 cells can be reduced futher due to high combined volume of Vue and Volt.
2) Packging costs can also be reduced drastically as GM would have 50% stake in the facility
3) No large upfront costs for continental to setup a new facility to build Volt pack as they will be using existing cobasys facility.
4) GM would have more control over NIMH battery packs quality for
mild hybrids and two mode hybrids.
5) To make sure Volt packs are manufactured under the watchful eyes of GM.
If possible and cost-advantageous, A123 can also be offered some share in Cobasys.
GM should think about this.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:19 am)I can’t put links, it’s too complicated.
0% is a 72 hour sale.
Chris
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:26 am)#11 Brad G:
Me too.
#13 & 49 Dave G:
Amen. Too big and too heavy for me.
“Simplicate and add lightness.”
#36 Statik
Your comments on The Dow and the fall of the dollar track exactly with those of Kevin Phillips in “Bad Money, which I heve mentioned here before.
In addition, he discusses in some detail how the CPI has been manipulated to make it a appear that inflation is under control. The removal of fuel and food (!) from the “core” inflation rate is just that, in his opinion, a cynical political manipulation.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:27 am)I’m surprised no one has pointed out yet (Rashiid Amul post does hint at it) that the 70mpg number quoted for the Vue plug-in is completely meaningless as it assumes the 1st X number of miles (10 it sounds like in this case) are using no gas at all (electric only range). 70mpg could mean the 1st 10 miles are electric and the next 10 miles are with the gasoline engine running.
I know folks may be sick of hearing it from me… but GM… bring back the Geo Metro from over 20 years ago! 50 miles/gallon using traditional technolgy (1L 3-cyclinder gasoline engine). And it could actually sit 5 (2 in front, 3 in back seat)! Imagine what you could do with that car today with newer technology like variable valve timing, engine stop/start technology, even adding more gear ranges to both manual and automatic models, etc. And the car was affordable for the masses!
As Chris mentioned, these “hybrids” don’t even come close to the 10-15 year old non-hybrids they replace. Instead the vehicles have just kept getting bigger and heavier, and engines designed for performance instead of fuel economy. I bought a brand new Nissan Sentra in 1987, drove it for 12 years or 137k miles, and reliably got 35 miles/gallon (and I was a real lead foot, regularly 80-85mph on the highway, and lots of quick starts/stops in the city). Today’s Sentra is “rated” for exactly the same milage (actual I’d assume is less).
While I’m a big fan of battery EV’s (and “range extended” ones too), and hope to own one in 3, maybe 4 years, the big auto companies shouldn’t ignore “going back to the future” with smaller conventional ICE vehicles with engine designs geared to fuel economy that the vast majority of (North) Americans can afford. And I’m not just talking about American big auto… even Toyota is pathetic… drove my parent’s Corolla all Winter while they were being snow birds and I averaged only 28 mpg… and I was actually trying to conserve fuel. I think maybe the manual transmission would do better with at least a 5 speed as my parents was the 3 speed automatic, but still, this is a car built at least 15 years after my Sentra, and fuel economy was not only put on the back burner, but it went backwards.
Statik’s post about the analyst downgrade to sell for GM is why the stock is down 11% (over yesterday’s close) right now to what sounds like an all time low (well at least the CNN folks didn’t have data going back far enough to know).
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:31 am)It’s all coming together for 2012. Maybe the Mayans were right.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:39 am)The Vue hybrid should have used the four cylinder engine. It will be too expensive, and the economy will not be that impressive compared to the four cylinder version. That “50 improvement” is in city driving, and compared to the V6.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:48 am)49 Dave G……
You said, “The Vue is too big and heavy (see my previous post about this). Also, the height is problematic for aerodynamics.”
The Vue may be too heavy and have too much frontal area to suit YOU, and that’s fine. But I can assure you categorically that it would be able to achieve ELECTRIC-ONLY HWY SPEEDS OF 80-90 MPH IF ITS BATTERY WERE UPSIZED TO THE VOLT’S BATTERY AND ITS CONTROL ALGORITHMS WERE ADJUSTED TO ACHIEVE THIS!
Don’t believe it? Email me & I’ll send you compelling technical evidence.
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:50 am)#63 Morgan
I am ‘loosely’ aware of Bussard and the reactor. Hydrogen, fusion, interspace travel…all very exciting. Then he died…and the funding did to (actually the funding I think died a little before he did)
I remember a big claim about something or other…just after he got cut off from the military. I’m always skeptical of ‘the big find’ after being on the pogie for 12 years, and I confess I know little to nothing about the ‘knitty-gritty’ of it….I just know how it looks.
I googled a bit, looks like they had to go non-profit to get the donations (tax-deduction on donations easier to solicit).
You could probably fill in the parts I’ve got wrong. I’m too lazy right now to surf down the ‘hard facts’
Jun 26th, 2008 (11:54 am)PS: My email is nasaman@earthlink.net —ask for “Vue proposal”
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:00 pm)#67 Noel Park
“# 36 Statik: Your comments on The Dow and the fall of the dollar track exactly with those of Kevin Phillips in “Bad Money, which I heve mentioned here before. In addition, he discusses in some detail how the CPI has been manipulated to make it a appear that inflation is under control. The removal of fuel and food (!) from the “core” inflation rate is just that, in his opinion, a cynical political manipulation.”
Wow, I’m glad you read it!
I knew once I was done that it went too long and people would probably skip over it. If I could post only one thing to try and help people out, make them realize they are a frog in a boiling pot, it would be that.
Your mentioning of ‘inflation’ being under control is also exactly right. I am of the exact same opinion. I don’t even pay attention to the gov’t inflation numbers, or the ‘definition of recession,’ GDP/GNP, etc. ‘Common sense land’ is easier to peg.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:07 pm)Static:
Dr. Bussard was best known for a Sci-Fi concept which was named after him: the “Bussard Ramjet.” No plans were ever seriously put forward for actually building it (one has to compare it to something like the ‘helicopter’ drawings of Leonardo Da Vinci: with a similar time-scale for implementation!)
His field was plasma physics and nuclear engineering, and he had a lot of influence over the history of fusion research. Towards the end of his life, he began developing a “polywell” fusion reactor which used an entirely different approach. He believed that it would be able to support a fusion cycle which does not release neutrons (aneutronic), making it much safer. He got funding from the Navy, which allowed him to conduct promising early experiments.
When the funding expired, being an old man, he in desperation turned to private funding. There is an excellent “tech talk” video of his presentation to Google (it’s two hours long, and very detailed, but worth seeing if you can turn loose of the time).
The last news I heard was that Governor Schwarzenneger of California agreed to fund the next phase of experiments. It’s exciting to hear that they’ve apparently gone forward. Why would the Governor of Kalifornia agree to this? One of the fuel ingredients of Boron: California almost has a corner on the world supply.
Yes, it is a long shot. If the Boron-based anuetronic approach won’t work, maybe they’ll investigate helium3, which is available on the Moon (and almost the only thing valuable enough there to be worth importing. Ever wonder why China, Russia, and everyone else is suddenly talking about a return to the Moon)?
Please keep us posted, morgan
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:10 pm)BY THE WAY, the Dow and Nasdaq are down generally, the Dow had lost 200 points by lunchtime on the East Coast; so factor that into the GM stock slide.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:13 pm)Re: to MarkinWI regarding how 20% improvement is better on gas guzzler vs. non guzzlers
Looks like an out for folks trying to rationalize their decision to buy a gas guzzler…. as using your numbers, there’s still a big difference between the two in your example… 55.5 – 27.7 = 27.8 gallons/1k miles difference! The gas guzzler uses twice as much gas!
And with an average 15k miles/year, that’s 417 gallons more a year you’ll use with the guzzler (18mpg) than the other one (36mpg). At $4/gallon, if you can find it that low any more, that’s a DIFFERENCE $1,668/year ($2,085 at $5 gas).
Do the math with a Prius that gets 50mpg… or the Volt that may get the same when running the gasoline engine, but even better, could in theory go 15k miles/year on almost no gas if you drive 40 miles/day every day (yes, you have to pay for the electricity, but it’s a lot cheaper than even $3/gallon gas)
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:15 pm)Brad G, # 16. I had the opportunity to read the links you posted concerning thorium-fueled nuclear reactors. Seems quite promising. If it really is as good as they say, I would probably change my opposition to Nuclear energy.
Thanks again, Brad G and Noah.
It is always good to learn something new.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:22 pm)Murray! Stop!
I get those “urgent buy-back notifications” every few weeks. They’re basically just a sales vehicle for pointing out your trade value if you come back to Saturn. While it tends to be a generous offer, it’s the closest thing to a cynical approach I’ve ever seen there.
No, they’re never going to offer you a generous value for something they don’t have too much of.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:26 pm)# 75 Jackson
Good info, there. Thanks
#76 Jackson
“BY THE WAY, the Dow and Nasdaq are down generally, the Dow had lost 200 points by lunchtime on the East Coast; so factor that into the GM stock slide.”
Somedays, that might be true…today is not one of those days. It factors in no way. The opposite is true today, factor out GM/Ford spooking the market and it would be higher. (albeit not alot, maybe 75 points, more housing bad news/oil spikes today)
GM was off 12 percent at the open, the DOW was only off 110-odd points at the same time, less than 1 percent. If it was a bi-product of the market, the DOW would be off 1,400.
The DOW is lucky that it is measured as “price-weighted” Which is also ridiculous and why the DOW is actually a dinosaur (don’t get me started). I used it because of the reference to “Dogs of the Dow” … and it seemed less harsh than doing to math on a more reflective market like the S&P 500 or Nasdaq.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:34 pm)Side note…but VERY IMPORTANT note.
The downgrade from Goldman actually forced Wagoner out into the open today. Read between the lines of this quote (Another PR-massaged corporate statement, say something really, really bad, but spin it as well as you possibly can):
“We’ve got a very good, solid funding base under any scenario we see, solid through the end of this year,” Wagoner told reporters after an economic event hosted by U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama. “We have a lot of options to fund beyond that.”
Translation: You remember that nonesense we said about having lots of money to get through 3-4 years and to ‘ride out the economic downturn’? (his words exactly) Well, apparently, we only have enough to last another 6-7 months for sure. The lots of ‘other options’?…yeah that means about 8 billion in facility, thats it. They are just setting the base for “bringing the pain” next week on the sales.
You can believe GM is pounding the pavement looking for more financing right now, and the doors are being closed in their face. No one is going to give GM a nickel now.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:46 pm)I make no claims regarding stocks and the economy, I think I have a fair-to-middling understanding of the most basic principles. I could tell you how a helicopter works, but that doesn’t mean I can fly one!
I’m a lot more interested in technology and energy trends, and I’m really getting a lot out of this web site. Thanks, Lyle!
I just recalled the name of that “tech talk:”
“Should Google Go Nuclear?”
Okay Chris, now watch this:
I’m opening another browser session, without closing this one. I use “Google” as a home page. If I didn’t, I could still go there.
I put “Should Google Go Nuclear” (without the quotes) into the search field, and click “Google Search.”
I note that the third link down is the video I want: “Should Google Go Nuclear” … “Google Tech Talks November 9, 2006 ABSTRACT This is not your … 93 min” I click the blue part of the link, and it comes up ….
“Buffering video;” yes, that’s the one I want. With the video playing, I highlight the contents of the URL field at the top of my (second) browser session, and click CTRL + C (the “c” key and the “ctrl” key at the same time)
Now, I come back to this browser session, and put the cursor into this “Leave a Reply” edit box. I’m about to click CTRL + V (the “v” key and the “ctrl” key):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606
…and there’s you’re link. Now, that wasn’t so complicated, was it? (one of the things I do here is tech support, which is a great challenge for someone who doesn’t have an Indian accent).
Dr. Bussard does a far better job selling his idea than I can. If you have any technical leaning, you’ll find this fascinating (nasaman, take note).
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:50 pm)Jackson and Statik:
The Navy ponied up the funds to test WB7 which is the next step before a full scale prototype.
They have plasma working in WB7 and are collecting data regarding Bussard’s scaling formula which, if proven correct, leads to a 100 MW Fusion reactor for either DT fusion or pB11 fusion. Cost of the reactor is estimated at 200 million which is ridiculously cheap.
I could go into some of the equations but if you want to get that in depth the Talk-Polywell website is a better bet. A few of the Bussard WB6 team post on there and Dr. Nebel who is conducting the current WB7 research posts there.
Back on topic
This Saturn would be ideal for me at 0% for 72 lol.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:52 pm)Statik –
Regarding your post #81, very last sentence “No one is going to give GM a nickel now”. Well, I’m ready to give GM $30,000 right now!!
Yeah…I know that’s not what you meant, but I just had to say it.
Jun 26th, 2008 (12:54 pm)The Polywell research started by Dr. Bussard was not funded by the state of California, it was re-funded by the ONR (research group for the Navy). This is the same group that had funded the project in the past. The current prototype WB-7 is currently being tested and a peer review is supposed to take place sometime in the August time frame. If anybody is interested in details of this research please go to.
http:\\www.talk-polywell.org
This forum has a lot of background on the project and the team currently working on the project occasionally posts status updates on the site.
Jun 26th, 2008 (1:01 pm)81 Statik:
You know the same kind of forward committments GM has vis a vis healthcare, retirement, and other unwieldy contracts. Chapter 11 is the best thing for them to get lean and mean. Fortunately they were long sighted enough to make the E-Flex Volt and Flextreme R&D under the Chevrolet and Opel banners, both lines unlikely to be taken from the GM banner.
GMC, Pontiac, and Buick are likely torched in a Chapter 11…Pontiac thrown in to give the Chinese, Indians, or Venture Capitalists just enough to think its a good deal. GM gets rid of three lines that have limited potential in an electric/small car future. (sad about Buick…the Lucerne really is a great car.)
Jun 26th, 2008 (1:15 pm)#77 Jeff M – As stated in the earlier post, the comment is aimed at those who “HAVE to have an SUV.” The point is that even incremental changes (like 20%/3 mpg) can make a significant difference for those who choose to drive SUVs. In past months people have posted on this site that replacing SUVs with hyrid SUVs would do more to conserve gas than going from a high efficiency conventional car (take the Mini Cooper at 35 mpg) to a hybrid like the Prius at 50 mpg. I didn’t believe it until I ran the numbers.
Now, if we take your approach, “You can drive a Prius instead of a gas guzzling SUV,” then of course the SUV never makes sense. Fact is, even many of the people who come to this site want an SUV. Now, I’ll happily drive my Volt sometime in 2011. On the other hand, my wife will hold out for a 4WD SUV, preferably one that looks as cool as the one she has now. As soon as someone delivers a 4WD SUV with a plug-in and enough trunk room and a bit of flash, I’ll buy it for her.
Call it vanity, call it whatever you want. Fact is, there are a number of days (1-7) every year where I park my car a block or two away from my house because my Pontiac Vibe can’t get up the hill due to all the snow and ice. (Where will I plug in my Volt then? Oh yeah, it has a back-up ICE. Great idea GM!)
Jun 26th, 2008 (1:39 pm)>> But I can assure you categorically that it would be able to achieve ELECTRIC-ONLY
>> HWY SPEEDS OF 80-90 MPH IF ITS BATTERY WERE UPSIZED TO THE VOLT’S
>> BATTERY AND ITS CONTROL ALGORITHMS WERE ADJUSTED TO ACHIEVE THIS!
How?
Motor & Battery size isn’t a speed issue. RPM of the PSD inhibits.
30 MPH is the current tolerance for Two-Mode.
Of course, motor size can’t be increased anyway. There physically isn’t room available within the transmission housing… a restriction that neither Ford or Toyota has with their FULL hybrids.
Jun 26th, 2008 (2:12 pm)#74 Statik:
Well I think that you would be pleasantly surprised at how many people pay careful attention to your comments. Even if only so that they can give you “static” about them, LOL.
BTW, I take encouragement from the mere fact that Obama is reaching out to these guys. Don’t get me wrong. As much as I may wring my hands about the management and financial condition of GM, I devoutly hope that they somehow do survive and prosper, and that the Volt is a roaring success.
Jun 26th, 2008 (2:25 pm)#68 Jeff M:
Amen.
Jun 26th, 2008 (3:26 pm)Statik
Why do you like being on this forum? Just curious. There doesn’t seem to be any upside in it for you, Are you interested in the Volt as a future purchase?
Jun 26th, 2008 (3:51 pm)Jackson #79…
Yeah, I sort of already knew the answer – no way did Saturn’s 0%/60mo. offer apply to hybrids – I just wanted the wife to CALL them and ask/bug about it anyway.
She’s a bit of a fireplug (teaches 10th graders for a living) and if I can get her the least bit fired up about something she’ll run with it.
Of course I only emailed her my suggestion to CALL them – and she responded with the following email:
“Oh baby, I’d LOVE to get something new I like dealing with those Saturn people, they are so nice over there. However, I checked online and the deal is not for Hybrids.
( But I’ll be happy to look at some tomorrow if you want… ”
So, at this point I’m thinking that I may have offically opened up the proverbial can’o worms……….
Jun 26th, 2008 (3:51 pm)MarkinWI87,
The reasons for the “have to have” vary from person to person.
If its a people mover in our corner of the world we use a Honda Odessey for example. .
But my caution about the hybrids is based on the suspicion they will be supeseded before long by various plugins. The residual values will suffer. As well there is this wierd discussion coming out of Australia that the operating costs of the hybrids can be dearer than a ICE.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4597641a30.html.
A lot to think about….
#42 Jackson. Yes, Im familiar with Heath Robinson but I believe Rube Goldberg machines are more appplicable. lol.
Jun 26th, 2008 (4:09 pm)88 john1701a……..
You said,”…..(electric) motor size can’t be increased anyway. There physically isn’t room available within the transmission housing…..”
The Vue 2 Mode transmission includes TWO oil-cooled electric motors of 74HP (55KW) each (or 148HP total) and is designed to operate at hwy speeds of well over 100MPH.
Get your facts right before you make reckless, irresponsible comments!
Jun 26th, 2008 (4:34 pm)For an average tire, isn’t 60 MPH around 800 RPM?
Seems that should be a cakewalk for an electric motor.
Jun 26th, 2008 (5:15 pm)Lets see… average MPG 16 city, 22 hwy – the average MPG is about 20, just to give it benefit of the doubt. Now increase that by 50%, and you get 30 MPG for the hybrid – I’m not impressed. I still wanna Volt, asap.
Jun 26th, 2008 (5:24 pm)92 Murray:
Now that’s funny. You’re hooped. And at 0% financing, to boot. You’ve fired up the missus to run with it alright.
Jun 26th, 2008 (5:35 pm)#47 akojim
about the Mayan calander… I heard that on December 21st, 2012… 1/3 of the earth’s population would die… Meaning that the 10 year battery pack life really isn’t an issue.
Just something to brighten up the day…
Jun 26th, 2008 (5:52 pm)There are so many organisations focusing their efforts for fruition in the 2010-2012 period.
For example new refineries in Saudi Arabia are to come on stream about then.
I wonder if sweet crude shortages have been predicted for a while(in secrecy) and oil price instability is the norm until the sour crude refineries become common or we get off the addiction to gas.
I do not believe that sour crude is short and Im guessing supplies will go on for another thirty years on a plateau until they finally decline. (Im an Oil Drum reader)
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:18 pm)>> Get your facts right before you make reckless, irresponsible comments!
The comment was correct, size cannot be increased. Being reckless is disregarding the point of the post… RPM limitations of the PSD connections. What are the tolerances?
You stated enough horsepower was available. Ok. Now address why the current maximum is only 30 MPH. What is the reason(s)?
Look at how many errors are routinely posted about how Prius operates. If you want to avoid problems & confusion, share the details you know. Getting the facts right goes both ways.
Jun 26th, 2008 (6:45 pm)100 john1701a …….
You said, “…the current maximum is only 30 MPH”, not me.
My information is based on close contacts with several GM people responsible for the Plug-in Vue development, and 30 mph is simply NOT a limitation of the design! As I said in post #94, the Vue 2 Mode transmission includes TWO oil-cooled electric motors of 74HP (55KW) each (or 148HP total) and is designed to operate at hwy speeds of well over 100MPH. What don’t you understand about this?!?
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:21 pm)>> 30 mph is simply NOT a limitation of the design!
No one said it was; however, it is the maximum currently available. GM could offer faster, but doesn’t. There’s a big difference between DESIGN and configuration OFFERED.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Jun 26th, 2008 (7:27 pm)It all boils down to the claims of Two-Mode being ultimately superior. If so, then it should be able to compete with Camry-Hybrid and Fusion-Hybrid head on.
Why are there no plans to offer a FULL hybrid midsize sedan?
Waiting until Volt 2.0 is scaled up doesn’t make any sense. That’s what, 5 years from now?
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:00 pm)“In addition, the Vue Green Line 2 Mode’s 3.6L VVT V-6 engine with direct injection technology ensures there are no trade-offs between performance and fuel economy. Acceleration time from 0-60 is expected to be around 7.3 seconds, and the maximum towing load will be 3,500 pounds (1588 kg). ”
A V-6 is not going to offer the same level of economy as an I4, which is why people buy hybrids. But an I-4 AND a pair of electric motors would pull pretty well, so why is a V-6 necessary?
And I don’t believe I have ever seen a Vue tow anything, anyway.
I do not understand Chevy marketing.
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:18 pm)dagwood55, #104
I can only assume the configuration reflects the lack of battery range.
What a hopeless mess!
Jun 26th, 2008 (10:46 pm)Just read every post in this thread. At least the Boussard Fusion Reactor info was fun.
Be well,
A cranky Tag
Jun 27th, 2008 (7:03 am)#101 nasaman,
It seems that some believe that just because the Tahoe/Yukon hybrids go up to 30 mph in electric-only mode, that the same will be true for the much smaller Vue. Obviously, they are trying to apply the principles of another hybrid system to the GM hybrids. My understanding is that the Tahoe/Yukon could go more than 30 mph in electric-only mode, but as you have mentioned, this puts a large demand on the battery.
With a larger battery pack (like the Volt’s) and the 2-mode system, I see a great deal of potential. It only takes 30 hp to move the Tahoe down the road at 60 mph, so it is even less for the Vue. With the proper gearing, etc. the plug-in Vue could easily cover the speed ranges most of us travel at, however, for towing and hill climbing, the engine would probably have to kick-in to provide supplemental power.
Here is an interesting website from one of our posters:
http://john1701a.com/
Where he states:
“I bought a Classic Prius (hybrid-electric, fuel-efficient, super-ultra-low-emission vehicle) back on 9/9/2000 and drove it in Minnesota until I replaced it on 10/23/2003 with a HSD Prius (which is even cleaner and more efficient). And after all that time of Prius ownership (7 years, 9 months, and 18 days), I’m still loving every minute of it!”
Interesting, but instead of being out driving “and loving every minute of it”, he prefers to come to this website and post negative comments. Makes you wonder why he is so concerned, doesn’t it?
Jun 27th, 2008 (8:29 am)BillR,
I’d visited John1719a’s Shrine of St. Prius months ago when he showed up. If the Volt didn’t come out on time, I was thinking of making a pilrgimage there.
I’ll bet that that last question you posted is one of those rhetorical thingies.
Be well,
Tag
Jun 27th, 2008 (11:04 am)>> he prefers to come to this website
With all the incorrect information being posted routinely about the various hybrid systems, especially the configuration in Prius, wouldn’t you participate too? After all, that isn’t the only thing I do anyway.
$4 gas is here now.
The time available for development has already expired. Volt is fantastic for meeting the 2020 efficiency mandate. But what will people buy in the meantime? 60 million new vehicles each year worldwide have to use something more advanced than only an engine.
Smog & Carbon emission improvements cannot wait any longer either.
What are your priorities?
Jun 27th, 2008 (2:50 pm)I just spoke with a local Saturn Dealer who said they will NOT be allowed to add anything to the sticker price of the VUE 2 Mode Plug-in or to the Flextreme E-REV Plug-in. Unless this changes, which he says is very unlikely, it’s GREAT NEWS!
PS: Saturn’s Flextreme will have virtually the same drivetrain as a Volt
Jun 27th, 2008 (6:27 pm)#107 BillR & #108 Tagamet:
I have followed john1701a’s comments over the months. I have found them to be useful, thought provoking, and literate, as I have found yours.
I recall that Tagamet said something very wise just today or yesterday about devoting our energy to trying to help to get the Volt on the road, and not diffusing it into political and other fringe arguments. I agreed then, and I agree now.
Let’s lay off of each other as much as possible and work together to push GM into changing its ways before it’s too late.
Jun 27th, 2008 (9:14 pm)If I can’t get a small SUV with AWD, I might as well just get a station wagon. Besides visibility, why would anyone spring for a FWD (or RWD) SUV that is equaled or surpassed by other body styles in terms of cargo-carrying capacity? I know AWD hurts fuel economy, but personally I would have a hard time buying an SUV without it. That’s just me though.
Jun 28th, 2008 (6:22 am)“What are your priorities?”
In no particular order, my priorities are saving money, saving the environment, and helping to make America stronger.
So how do I accomplish that personally? With increasing oil prices, I have burned more and more wood (my house has oil heat). I am currently installing a state-of-the-art wood gasification boiler in my home, that should displace 90% of my heating oil usage (over 1000 gallons). This reduces criteria pollutants (CO, NOx, VOC’s), and uses renewable fuel instead of oil (carbon neutral). Also, when I buy wood, I support my local economy instead of sending dollars out of the country.
Although I view hybrids as a step in the right direction, they still rely on oil products for 100% of their energy. I see the Volt as a leap in the right direction, as most people will likely see their gasoline consumption drop by a factor of 5 or more. Again, like using wood, with the Volt we are reverting to domestic sources of energy for our transportation needs. And the Volt will be produced in America, so I will again support the American economy with the purchase of an American vehicle.
Beyond my personal efforts, my professional work also lies in the field of energy. See one of my following posts in the forum section on US CO2 emissions:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143&page=2
So while vehicles like the Volt will shift our transportation energy needs from oil to electricity, the electric grid will also need to become cleaner and more efficient. I am actively working on advanced technologies that will significantly reduce carbon emissions from the power generation sector.
Jun 28th, 2008 (7:25 pm)why isn’t anyone commenting on AFS Trinity that put an electric motor in a VUE and claim 150 mpg efficiencies (based on daily under 40 mile driving during the week and higher milage on the weekends)??? does GM already already have that type of capability? If not why aren’t they talking to these guys???
http://www.afstrinity.com/index.htm
Jun 28th, 2008 (9:52 pm)Vinny, please read my post #68 above about why claims like 150 mpg are meaningless. With the right data you could make the claim the Prius gets 200 mpg.
Or just read right from AFS’s own website…. http://www.afstrinity.com/faq.htm#mileage
As that link says… mpg reverts to the host vehicles mpg when it’s not running on the battery