GM CEO Rick Wagoner Tells Obama About the Chevy Volt and Gives Financial Assurances
GM CEO Rick Wagoner attended a forum with Barack Obama and other automotive executives and academics today at Carnegie Mellon University.
Obama asked automakers how the next President could help them through the current crisis.
Wagoner asked for help with research funding to develop advanced batteries and vehicles.
Per the article:
Wagoner sounded a note of optimism, noting GM’s plan to introduce the plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt by 2010 and more advanced research on hydrogen fuel-cells. But he said the researchers developing batteries for hybrids and taking hydrogen power from the lab to the highway need federal research money. And he asked for government help to offset the high costs of newer technologies for consumers — aid that traditionally has come in the form of tax credits.
In other news, after the forum, Wagoner tried to give Reuters some reassuring words about GMs recent steep financial difficulties saying:
“As we’ve said before, we’ve got a very good, solid funding base under any scenario we see, solid through the end of this year. We have a lot of options to fund beyond that.”
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June 26th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
But where does Obama stand in relation to plug-in, electric and reduced dependancy on turmOIL?
Sounds like it was a good conference…go GM!!
Johnnie
June 26th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Ooh, big government help us!!! Once again with the dam hydrogen fuel cells. If GM had invested all those 100s of millions they blew on fuel cells into advanced batteries like perfecting large format NIMH and LION they wouldn’t need any help. They’d own the tech outright and be hitting the market with a 100 mi BEVs for $20K, and chevy volt for $30K today. Toyota and company would be licensing the batteries from them at a very dear price and they’d be number one once again.
Instead they go hat in hand to Obama. What a joke…
June 26th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
McCain has a track record for wanting higher gas taxes and tax credits specifically for the purpose of supporting EVs. I trust him over the “change” guy simply because I don’t know what change is coming. Although I did read an article where Obama specifically stated he supports flex fuel vehicles and fuel cells. Let’s face it, if the Volt was the number one election issue, McCain would win by a landslide.
For the record, I’m not on the McCain bandwagon…my guy went down about six months ago.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
#2 DA
Hydrogen is still a part of our future. It’s a proven technology and it has far reaching benefits beyond just vehicles. Storage, waste, refuel times are just a few of the benefits you get in hydrogen systems over battery systems.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Dave B
“McCain has a track record for wanting higher gas taxes and tax credits specifically for the purpose of supporting EVs.”
Isn’t this the guy who wants a “tax holiday” for gas?
June 26th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I don’t have a lot of faith in Obama because I don’t really know what he stands for. All I hear from him is the same stuff I’ve been hearing from all the other democrats. He’s only the democratic nominee because he is “different” from the status quo and people really want change from the status quo. I would have been happy with the a Clinton or Edwards nominee with Obama as VP. He can have the White House in 8 years after he gets more experience.
As for McCain, I like the fact that he has a reputation for doing what he believes, even if he has to cross party lines. I like his recent proposal for tax credits on EVs and the $300M reward for battery development. However, I’m totally against his idea of a “gas-tax holiday” or more drilling. These are both only temporary solutions and the nation needs to focus on long-term solutions.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
It’s good to see that Obama is paying attention to the issue, though the timing would suggest that he is playing catch up with the McCain campaign. I wonder how much either candidate really knows about these various technologies and how much of it is being directed by their political handlers? Whoever gets the job, they’ve got to ignore all of the history and support PHEVs like the Volt in order to get the US off imported oil!
June 26th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I hear many people say they do not know what Obama plans are on many subjects. His web site has great amount of details. For those interested below is link to his Energy plans.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/EnergyFactSheet.pdf
I do believe they both need to get more up to speed on the subject and it is good that energy is becoming important issue for this election. Just hoping that whomever wins it will not just be talk but really a major focus of action to get this country oil independent.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Does he have 300 million?
well even so its good to see interest
June 26th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Why the hell is there a McCain ad on the page talking about Obama?
That is sickening.
Here’s my response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU
June 26th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Way off topic … reminds me of a joke I heard a while back (from when Hilary was still in the race)…
————-
We in Denmark cannot figure out why you are even bothering to hold an election in the US.
On one side, you have a bitchy lawyer married to a womanizing lawyer, running against a flip-floppy lawyer who is married to a bitchy lawyer.
On the other side, you have a war hero married to a well-endowed good looking woman who owns a beer distributorship.
Is there really a contest here?
June 26th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Kent (#6),
I agree that the “gas-tax holiday” is not a good idea; however, drilling for more oil is not a short term solution. As much as I’d like electric cars (powered by a clean and efficient nuclear-powered electric grid) to become the norm, oil is here to stay for at least another century. It is, therefore, in America’s best interest to drill for oil, and the sooner the better.
I am a McCain supporter, by the way, despite his proposing the gas tax holiday. I just think he is what the country needs right now. On the other hand, when it comes to supporting the Chevy Volt, either McCain or Obama will do the right thing and help all of us (and GM) to get behind the wheels of an American-made Chevy Volt.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Actually, Obama had a comprehensive energy plan (I don’t care for all of it) long before McCain had one but he didn’t draw enough attention to it early enough leaving room for McCain to make the issue his own. What a relief to see two intelligent (and quite possibly integrity too) candidates this time around. My only concern would be with the source of McCain’s funding.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
At least we now know that both candidates are aware of the viability of electric cars and the use of electricity as a viable transportation fuel.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
#2 DA
Right on! Hydrogen research is a waste of money and is just an attempt by oil companies and distributors to continue to keep us enslaved to their supply chain. Hydrogen as an energy storage has been demonstrated over and over to be the least efficient compared to battery technology. The only thing it appears to offer now is fast refueling. That will never happen because by the time a nationwide infrastructure would be in place, batteries will have advanced to the point of making refueling a moot point.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Obama, McCain and especially Mr. Wagoner seem to be oblivious to the millions of dollars the federal government AND the auto manufacturers have ALREADY poured into the “U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium (USABC), a part of the United States Council for Automotive Research (USCAR), an organization founded by DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors that works with the Department of Energy (DOE)” http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/07/010265.html
see also: http://www.uscar.org/guest/view_team.php?teams_id=12
Efforts such as these show how America continues to make buggy whips in the age of automobiles while countries like Japan are able to create government/industry synergy which leads to real economy growing products.
Let’s just hope history repeats itself (e.g. Stealth is actually based on Russian research but ignored by the Russians) and someone dusts off some of this battery research and discovers we have had the fundamental technology for electric car batteries for YEARS. Senator McCain, please award the $300M to the USABC. (Or to that Stanford researcher for his advanced Li-ion battery.)
Pathetic. Just pathetic.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I’ll just copy and paste my reaction to this news I posted in the last thread, seems like so far we will not be touching on the important part of this ‘Wagoner speak’
Wagoner said:
“We’ve got a very good, solid funding base under any scenario we see, solid through the end of this year,” Wagoner told reporters after an economic event hosted by U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama. “We have a lot of options to fund beyond that.”
Translation:
You remember that nonesense we said about having lots of money to get through 3-4 years and to ‘ride out the economic downturn’? (his words exactly) Well, apparently, we only have enough to last another 6-7 months for sure. The lots of ‘other options’?…yeah that means about 8 billion in facility, thats it. They are just setting the base for “bringing the pain” next week on the sales.
You can believe GM is pounding the pavement looking for more financing right now, and the doors are being closed in their face. No one is going to give GM a nickel now.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
#15, Ozone,
Thankyou for admitting that hydrogen fuel cells have the advantage of rapid refills. I never hear that from the battery fanboys.
I am a fan of moving forward on all options - batteries, fuel cells, ultra / super capacitors, non-food ethanol, non-food bio-diesel, etc. Given the recent introduction of the Jatropha Curcas plant to the US, which has many times the fuel capacity per acres than corn, but requires little water or fertilizer, I now think bio fuels have a serious place in the mix:
[url=http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=749&highlight=jatropha][u]Linnk[/u][/url]
June 26th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Further to Wagoner saying they have enough cash to get through the year and then some. I decided to add something to my cut and paste from the last thread.
What Wagoner said today, and this should be important to us, is that GM DOES NOT have the cash to get the Volt to market. There is no scenario that GM can make it through this market, other than buyout, bankruptcy or massive government intervention.
Now under the security of Chapter 11, they may be able to follow through on the Volt, because it is a strong direction, making it viable. But rest assured there is no guarantees that this would happen. Sometimes, good assets/brands/ideas are sold or shuttered. It is a total game changer.
Today was the worst day for the Volt in this site’s history.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Ozonelevel,
Thanks for admitting that hydrogen has rapid refill capabilities. I can’t get the battery fanboys to do that.
Now that Jatropha curcus has been introduced into the US, I think bio-diesel has a serious chance of being a major player in our future alternative fuels mix.
I think Wagoner’s comments are just an admission that there isn’t much that the government can do about our current situation, now that the CAFE standards for the next dozen years are set. Research dollars will help a little, but GM is really going to need cheap government loans sometime in the next decade.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Statik,
Don’t worry, the government will give GM loans through the sale of low interest government Green bonds to the public. The Volt will come out, GM will regain market share, the stock price will go back up and GM will pay off the loans.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
#10 says…”Why the hell is there a McCain ad on the page talking about Obama?
That is sickening.”
The answer is that McCain paid to have it there. Is commerce really that foreign to all Obama supporters?
Anyway, I’m not sure that anyone really caught the irony of the Obama meeting considering he called McCain’s plan to reward the developer of a super battery as ridiculous.
Project Lexington looks pretty good to me. Se it at McCain’s web site.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Paul-R (#14):
“At least we now know that both candidates are aware of the viability of electric cars and the use of electricity as a viable transportation fuel.”
…and that’s really all we can say, at this point.
We’d better not depend on government, or a candidate, “doing the right thing.”
June 26th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
#20 Jason M Hendler
“Don’t worry, the government will give GM loans through the sale of low interest government Green bonds to the public”
Well thats one of the three scenarios of “buyout, bankruptcy or massive government intervention,” I look forward to seeing the announcement.
I think its a terrible decsion for the government to take on more and more burden as ‘large iconic corporations’ start to fall on the knife. They are going down the same path as the people they bail out. But I will still take my Volt and let the citizens of America pay the price for it. Sad, but true.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
I’ve kind of liked McCain since he did his “Straight Talk Express” bus tour thing in the 2000 election. However, I’m concerned about the people he has around him … people like ex-Senator Phil Gramm of Texas who is responsible for this “Enron loophole”.
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/the-petro-manipulators/index.html
We all know how totally corrupt those Enron schemers were … especially the people in California. Enron is kaput and their white collar criminal leaders are in jail. McCain’s chief economic advisor is none other than Phil Gramm. Gramm was probably really good buddies with those Enron schemers from Houston. I would get rid of Phil Gramm if I were McCain. He might somehow convince McCain to sneak in a loophole that makes our energy and economic situation even worse for us average Joes … but GOOD for the people Gramm wants to help out.
I think McCain is a good guy but he might be undereducated about certain issues like energy and vulnerable to armtwisting from some of his advisors … who probably have ulterior motives behind their advice. I like McCain’s new green issues advisor though, James Woolsey. He spoke at the Google.org Plug in Conference. I’m sure he’ll tell McCain that plug-in cars like the Volt are going to be a KEY thing to deal with our oil addiction and dependence on countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran and Venezuela, etc.
Plug in cars like the Volt will be a good thing for everyone … not just Big Oil. The speculators won’t be able to manipulate electricity prices like they can with oil and other commodities. If they did, you’d REALLY see some ticked off people … all over the world. The world would down the tubes bigtime if average people couldn’t afford to keep their electricity on.
Whether he’s still a senator or the next Prez in November, McCain needs to think for himself and look at ALL sides of the issues and do what is best for ALL of the American people …. not just the “special interests”.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Posted in another thread but here it is:
Chapter 11 may be the best thing to happen to GM in 20 years.
Under Chapter 11 they can renegotiate or void the contracts that are crippling their price competitiveness (Or even better if we get some sort of sanity in the health insurance market)
They might not even need a government buyout if they can jettison their contracts, shutter the unions, and then sell the following brands: Hummer, Pontiac, GMC, and Buick.
Pontiac almost HAS to be there in order to make the other 3 palatable. GM’s forward thinking has all Volt materials and research in two departments Chevrolet and Opel that GM can’t sell off or splinter off and hope to remain GM and a global business.
(The retiree benefits are the single most crippling thing GM has on the table. They are paying SUPPLIER retirees 75% of wages on retirement…amazing)
June 26th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
We need Lithium Ion battery production facilities, not more research funds, lets go to war with the technology we have, rather than surrender because our technology is not as good as it needs to be. In WWII, improved versions of our war fighting equipment rolled out several times during the war, does the P51 version D ring a bell. That is the one that flew all the way to Berlin, then attacked ground targets on the way home.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#20 Jason,….I think your right on, and with G.M. stock at a 53 year low today, we added it to our company’s 401K Plan….Goooo G.M……!!!!!!!…..Gooooo ….Volt…!!!!
June 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#11 Paul-R
Thanks for the joke! I got a really good laugh from that one.
Its fun too see what people from the rest of the world think of our election process, as it can be quite humorous sometimes.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
#23, Statik,
A loan is not a giveaway, GM would have to pay it back, thereby paying the Green Bond holders their money.
#25, Van,
All the big 3 automakers have to do is insist their battery suppliers build factories in the US, just as foreign countries have done to us for years. CPI promises to build a factory in the US, should they get the Volt contract.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
To Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?
To everybody else: Don’t feed the trolls, remember?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Now economists are predicting $7.00/gallon in 2 years. Hopefully GM and Ford can stop producing those ridiculous SUV’s.
As far as the Denmark reference(joke). It would be quite difficult to find any European supporting a U.S. republican. Even if McCain is a big relief from the Bush years. Only mentioning Obama as a flipflop is quite funny. The McCain of 2000 would be unstoppable this election but he chose to appeal to the crazy rightwing base, switching his positions in many areas. Overall either Obama or McCain will be a big relief from the current retard in the White House.
Passing Buchanan or Carter as the worst presidents ever.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I bet GM is just as ticked off at Big Oil, OPEC, and the Wall Street speculators as we are these days because of the gas prices. I bet they REALLY want to do some “demand destruction” with their new fleet of hybrids on the way. The Volt will be their flagship car leading the charge against OPEC and Big Oil. I can’t wait. 2010 can’t get here soon enough. Revenge of the Hybrids. Sounds like a Star Wars movie.
Let’s just hope that GM can somehow sell off their inventory of big SUVs and trucks so they can start digging out of their financial problems quicker. They should load up their SUVs and trucks onto container ships and sell them to the OPEC countries who are getting all our gasoline money these days. They can definitely afford it these days. I hear that you can get a gallon of gas for $.25 cents in Venezuela. Sell ‘em some gas guzzlers, they don’t care. Send some more to the Saudis and the other oil sheik countries in the Middle East. I bet you can get gas for about a $1 a gallon there.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Good lord, the delusion. GM’s hybrids are awful; and the Volt was originally nothing more than FUD to stop people from buying Priuses until gas prices got cheap again and GM could go back to what they did best: making big SUVs and loathing people who actually want to buy small cars.
The fact that the Volt is now the only thing that might save the company doesn’t mean GM ever intended it to be serious, nor that they deserve anything but healthy skepticism at this point given how much previous government money they turned into shareholder dividends and SUVs.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Here’s a way that government could help increase public interest in EVs -
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/news/article4187546.ece
Hard to admit we’re behind the Brits, even harder I’ll bet for them to admit that they’re behind the French.
And with a little programming the electric AC/Heater could have the cabin cool/warm along with having the battery topped off when you get off work. 40 mile EV range is now 80 miles round trip.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Of course, when Obama talks about investing in sustainable technology, he’s being a typical big-government liberal, whereas when McCain does the same thing, he’s being a bipartisan maverick.
I don’t agree with all of Obama’s energy policy. In my view, he’s clearly wrong on ethanol, questionably wrong on nuclear, and misleading on “clean coal” (in that he actually means 100% CC&S whereas the coal industry uses it as a marketing slogan).
However, it’s clear to me that McCain’s policy of perpetual military adventurism and tax cuts will only add to the public debt that I (and my future children) will have to pay. We need to simultaneously raise taxes and cut spending. McCain won’t do either. At least Obama will raise taxes on those making over $600K and reorient our foreign relations posture from hegemonic imperialism to multilateral diplomacy.
Many Americans don’t “know” Obama, but the McCain they think they know is not the one that’s running for president in 2008. I would have much preferred McCain to Bush in 2000, but today’s McCain is campaigning miles to the neocon right of where Bush campaigned in 2000 as a compassionate conservative with a humble foreign policy. Remember when Bush out-Gored Gore by trumping his voluntary carbon emissions caps with mandatory caps? That certainly didn’t happen in the Bush/Cheney White House!
What troubles me the most about McCain is that if he’s starting to the right of where Bush left off, then how far to the right would he take this country in 4 years? What can we expect from a man who’s lived off the taxpayers since he was born on a Panamanian naval base, a spouse of a billionaire heiress that nevertheless receives a full government pension, who advocates YOYO (you’re on your own) economics for the rest of us? What does he know about life in the deregulated market/society he wants for us?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Statik isn’t a troll.
My guess is, we’ll see a lot of trolls on this particular thread.
I think I’ll sit the rest of this one out.
In conclusion:
I have less confidence in our government doing the right thing, under anybody, than Statik has in the economic future of GM. The great thing about the Volt was that it didn’t require any political deadlock to break, or any ‘common sense’ on the part of the ruling class.
Good night, all.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
M1EK:
It sure looks to me like the Chevy Volt is causing a bunch of OTHER car companies to get on the advanced hybrid bandwagon in a big way. GM is leading the pack this time with the Volt and lithium ion batteries. You gotta give GM credit for having the cajones to do what they are doing with the Volt. The Volt is definitely going into production you know. Just today, Volkswagen announced a new plug in hybrid that sounds very similar to the Volt’s “series hybrid” (ER-EV) drivetrain.
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html
VW is calling their drivetrain “Twin Drive”. They are showing pictures of their Twin Drive Golf, but I bet we don’t see it in America until sometime in late 2012. GM will have the Volt on the roads in late 2010/early 2011. GM has a pretty good lead on the competition. I’m hoping they don’t blow it and let all the other guys catch up … especially Toyota.
GM needs to go “pedal to the metal” with the Volt project. Get ‘er done and get ‘er done right. GM has their best engineers working on this project. It’s GM’s #1 project. It’ll probably get all the development money they need to do it right. GM shareholders ought to be happy campers in a few years.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Let’s not get too political on this one. Both politicians promise help to offset the high costs of newer technologies for consumers. These are politicians talking. They aren’t always succesful in accomplishing their vision. There are other forces at play. Remember, when debating in 2000, our current president said,
“I’m going to be judicious as to how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest, the mission needs to be clear, and the extra strategy obvious.”
Even though invading Iraq was not judicious, not in our vital interest, and we had no exit strategy, at least the mission was clear as mud. His hands were tied, he had to invade Iraq, and he couldn’t keep his campaign promise ;). So, don’t consider campaign promises as set in concrete. Just look to the constituency that the promiser represents. That is how they will act. If you are inclined one way or another, I don’t care. If you are just cheering one side on, that is of no value to me. Do we really need braod “I love/hate McCain/Obama” declarations here? Both say they will help promote newer technologies. The devil is in the details, the true conviction, and subject to change with the political realities.
If we want to compare candidates to see who would further our common interests; advancing automotive technology; let’s use facts. McCain represent a traditional republican constituency and Obama represents a traditional democratic constituency. Which constituency is more likely to further our common interests?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
GMVoltFan # 31 …. another solid idea - export all gas-guzzlers! There are several reasons that makes sense over-and-above what you’ve mentioned.
The current exchange rate on the USD$ plus are there even roads in Venezula and the Middle East? … perfect for those types of vehicles….love it!
M1EK #32 …. I know why Statik is here but doesnt sound like you have a good reason…oh well
June 26th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………..
June 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
On the subject of trolls . . . I read these posts for several months before joining in, and have always appreciated Statik’s posts, whether as food for thought or chuckles.
If you don’t like what someone posts, don’t read it, or learn to scan. JMHO
June 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Hydrogen V. Batteries
Even NIMH batts can charge to 80% in under 30 minutes. Better if they figure out a way to do prismatic large format. The A123 batteries can do the same in 15 minutes or less w/o breaking a sweat.
Now I know the idea of 150 amp 480 volt charge stations costing $5k sounds out there, but not nearly as out there as Hydrogen pumps $1 mil a pop. You could do rapid charge stations MUCH more cheaply. In fact i bet the likes of Home Depot and Walmart will offer them just to bring customers in. Municiple lots will give priority spaces to BEVs and PHEVs…
I have yet to hear Hydrogen advocates admit to THAT!
Let us also imagine this is paired up with distributed solar. I am not sure, but i bet the same large scale power inverters could also act as rectifiers when needed to rapid charge a BEV. I think they have a few in Cali already… One technology subsidizes the other, or as the biz school buzz word is ’synergy.’
So imagine a Walmart parking lot with ‘Palm tree’ tracking solar arrays and BEV/PHEV charge ports. With the advancements Sunpower claims to be making over the next 5 years it will all be economical w/o subsidies. Heck Walmart’ll probably eventually clean-up on it!
June 26th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I say focus Hydrogen on mass transit — mainly on the airlines.
- there are way less airports than gas stations
The more we hear about hydrogen in our cars the more Big Oil sits back and enjoys it……..its a diversion!
Keep the batteries for our cars…..
June 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
M1EK,
Healthy skepticism is one thing (a necessary thing), but calling everybody that posts in this site delluded, just because we believe the Volt is a palpable reality, is a little over the top. Ok…a lot. I bet you’re probably already regretting posting that comment.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Maybe a GOOD example of your tax dollars at work?
DOE working with A123 -
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503
June 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Looking at these comments I’m shocked so many republicans come to this web site. They must be worried about their Oil assets.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Vote for Communism in the next election!!!
June 26th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
#45 Tim,
I guess you just learned that the desire for electric vehicles cuts across the political spectrum. Something that appeals to the tree-hugging, latte drinking, bong-hitting, livin’ in sin liberals as well as the child labor exploiting, warmongering, bible-thumping conservatives.
Only problem is, neither of these left vs right interests control our gov’t. That’s right Dorothy, time to take away your innocents! Big Oil, The Military Industrial Complex, and various other corporatist special interests control our gov’t. And its not consistent with liberal OR conservative values. Our leaders just pander to that “crap” the voters care about, and get back to the looting for their particular brand of special interest once in office.
–DA
June 26th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
#36 GM Volt Fan
GM has a pretty good lead on the competition. I’m hoping they don’t blow it and let all the other guys catch up … especially Toyota
Hmmm…it is debatable on the auto technology leader, but not in hybrid sales. Toyota is probably somewhere between 5-10 years ahead of GM in the market.
- 1 million + hybrids sold since their intro in 2000
- more hybrids sold than all other competitors combined
- aftermarket companies converting their hybrids to PHEVs.
As for PHEVs, Toyota has had mules longer than GM. Years of experience in the hybrid market with volume should not be taken lightly. If the PHEV aftermarket conversion takes off for the Prius, the used Priuses with a PHEV conversion will probably be a strong competitor of the VOLT. In the mean time, Toyota can learn from the mistakes of GM and the aftermarket companies before releasing their version.
As golfers know…not putting first can be an advantage.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Well… OK, I bit and followed the above link and saw this:
As a U.S. senator, Barack Obama has led efforts to jumpstart federal investment in advanced vehicles, including combined plug-in hybrid/flexible fuel vehicles, which have the capability of getting well over 250 miles per gallon of gasoline.
250 mpg! I’m in, I want to drive an Obama. The Volt is a gas hog!
June 26th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
#45,
Republicans are environmentalists, too. But you have to protect the environment while using common sense, without wrecking our economy or our ability to compete globally. If we had done everything the greenies have wanted and proposed throughout the decades, the US right now would be a third-rate country, with unemployment figures typical of European countries and gas prices (and inflation) three or four times more that what we’re seeing right now (again, typical of European countries). But short-sighted environmentalist policies have prevailed in some cases. How is it possible, for example, that the country that developed nuclear power does not use it to the extent that the French do? Answer, fears fostered by left-wing environmentalists. Ironically, had the US pursued Nuclear Power back in the 70s, our environment would be much better off for it.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
I hate to actually take up for Obama but the Volt is quite capable of getting 1000 miles to the gallon.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
48 Jeff:
Parallel hybrids which if I recall my Prius research basically means jack all regarding Electric Range. Plug em in all you want but if you have a lead foot and like to drive 80 mph big whoop.
Series Hybrids? no problem, mash that pedal down all you want, for 40 miles my electrons have your gas mileage covered.
In short, Toyota’s hybrids are junk once someone comes out with a Series Hybrid and Toyota’s hybrids are junk for anyone who: tows, hauls, or moves heavy equipment.
With GM’s Two Mode hybrid VUE and a high MPG SUV (which GM has ALWAYS crushed Toyota on) I wouldn’t count GM out. I do think they will file bankruptcy but the bankruptcy is going to allow them to get rid of some very nasty stuff and out the other side they will come out more than able to kick butt and a very competitive company.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Again, from June 2007, Obama’s proposal:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/us_senators_int.html
US Senators Introduce Bill to Promote Plug-In Electric Drive Vehicles, Including Plug-In Conversions
18 June 2007
US Senate Finance Committee members Senators Maria Cantwell (D-WA) and Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) have introduced a bill to support the development of commercially viable plug-in electric drive vehicles (PEDVs), including pure battery-electric, plug-in hybrid electric, and plug-in fuel cell vehicles.
The bill—the Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007, or FREEDOM ACT (S.1617)—would provide four significant tax incentives:
A tax credit for consumers who purchase plug-in electric or plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Freedom Plug-in Credits would cover the consumer purchase of vehicles which use batteries and which plug into the electric grid for at least part of their power. This would include plug-in electrics, plug-in hybrids, and others.
The amount of the credit is a $2,000 base plus $400 for each kilowatt hour of traction battery pack capacity in excess of 2.5 kWh, with a cap of $7,500 for passenger vehicles of up to 10,000 pounds. A GEM (gasoline-ethanol-methanol) flex-fuel plug-in or a plug-in vehicle warranted by its manufacturer to run on biodiesel receives an extra $150. The same is true for heavier duty vehicles, except that the caps are scaled up for each vehicle weight class and range from $10,000 to $20,000. ….
June 26th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
A little off topic, but….
CA has the law that says all vehicles require a smog check every other year. Would this apply to the Volt?
June 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
#34 butters:
Thank you.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
#53 Don:
Thank you too.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
54. Kent
If it has a tailpipe it’s going to get probed :-))
Good news is that the catalytic converter on your Volt should last a looooong time, unless you spend a lot of time driving it cross country.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
What is going on here?
I go away for a couple hours and everyone is all defending me and whatnot? I’m bringing you all free “Volt” hats at the next Volt Nation…just don’t tell anyone where you got it…or I’ll get sued.
Wait…maybe I shouldn’t say that here…crap.
No hats for anyone…wink,wink. Get Lyle to ok it the next time he’s down at HQ, lol.
Cheers
June 26th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
GM Drops to 53-Year Low, Goldman Urges “Sell”
I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for GM, just when the Volt is looking so promising.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=5252476
June 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
The good thing about McCain is that you believe he has an energy policy, which is quite a step up from the “leader” we have in the White House now.
On the other hand I just can’t squre his energy policy with the Iraq war. McCain was a big propenent of the war and he’s still in love with it. But the ONLY reason we’re in Iraq is the oil. (Anyone who thinks bringing freedom to the Iraqi people means anything is delusional. As Alan Greenspan has pointed out, if we wanted to promote democracy we have plenty of opportunities around the world which we haven’t taken).
So rather than spending the one or two TRILLION dollars in Iraq why not just buy everyone a VOLT. Forget the $7,500 credit, bring on the $25,000 credit. It would be cheaper and we’d save more oil than we’ll ever get out of Iraq. Plus we’d all have nice new cars instead of some of us having artificial limbs.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
#50 Couts
If we had done everything the “green” republicans wanted and proposed throughout the decades, we would be better off? That seems like a stretch.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
GMVF # 31
“I bet GM is just as ticked off at Big Oil, OPEC, and the Wall Street speculators as we are these days because of the gas prices.”
*** *** ***
I hope you’re right, but I still can’t understand their persistence with H2. I understand wanting to experiment with it a little in case the car market turns in ways they never expected but I can’t understand Wagoner even worrying about further funding that is definitely needed for E-flex development. THAT doesn’t make much sense.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Is their anything the government can do to help? Sure…you can start by disbanding the UAW that Toyota and Honda seem to do well enough without.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
#4 redndahead:
Hydrogen is the biggest scam going. The oil companies are pushing hydrogen because they know it won’t work.
If you don’t believe me, how about the head of the European Fuel Cell Forum?
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
Here’s a quote:
“The advantages of hydrogen praised by journalists (non-toxic, burns to water, abundance of hydrogen in the Universe, etc.) are misleading, because the production of hydrogen depends on the availability of energy and water, both of which are increasingly rare and may become political issues, as much as oil and natural gas are today”
Hydrogen is meant to deceive us. That’s why they call them FOOL SELLS!
June 26th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Ross #44
Thanks for the link. It’s good to see some sort of collaboration, but I’d really like to see some serious funding from our government! I can’t believe this hasn’t happened.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/
“Well, I don’t believe that climate change is just an issue that’s convenient to bring up during a campaign. I believe it’s one of the greatest moral challenges of our generation. That’s why I’ve fought successfully in the Senate to increase our investment in renewable fuels. That’s why I reached across the aisle to come up with a plan to raise our fuel standards… And I didn’t just give a speech about it in front of some environmental audience in California. I went to Detroit, I stood in front of a group of automakers, and I told them that when I am president, there will be no more excuses — we will help them retool their factories, but they will have to make cars that use less oil.”
June 26th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
#60 DonC:
I think you have a realistic view. I agree with everything you say.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
#46 omegaman66 says: “Vote for Communism in the next election!!!”
This is no joke. I saw first hand how communism worked in Eastern Germany. My wife was in Moscow during the coup. In any realistic comparison to the west, communism sucks.
However, there are a lot of western social democratic countries that seem to work pretty well. For example Germany & France seem to be doing pretty well. Their currency is way up against ours.
I’m not a socialist, or capitalist. I’m a pragmatist.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
#2 DA
Only asking for what every other government is allready doing for it’s citizens and exsistence.
Some free financing and some kind of government rebate helps me buy a Volt! Would be nice to get a bit of help from the government I’ve been paying taxes to for over forty years.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
#52
I’m not counting GM out at all…and GM should not count Toyota out. However, GM has been counting Toyota out on hybrids for years now. So I’ll rephrase 1 million + sold vehicles to al the so-called junk lovers of the world. It would make Fred Sanford proud. Sorry…but I could not resist. It sholud be noted that those junk vehicles even sold with low gas prices. Could have GM done the same? GM was not even on the playing field…hybrids were considered a passing fad or a stop gap for the fuel cell vehicles that are just around the corner.
If nothing else then, the sales evidence shows that not everyone buys a vehicle to tow a RV or boat. I agree…GM makes great vehicles for hauling and towing…and they have the market share to prove it. Also you are correct ,the various hybrid designs have pluses and minuses. I doubt most people in the market for a 4 seater car are concerned about towing capacity. As for performance, hybrid or not….80mph reduces MPG or miles per KWH significantly. The ability of the VOLT to perform as an “energy miser” and “hotrod” is yet to be seen.
The above comments are food for thought for GM. I worked with GM for years…quality poeple there. All aspects of the VOLT need to be 100%. Especially since they are coming onto the volume production playing field cold.
- Manufacturing
- Technology
- Marketing
- Continous improvement
Defintion: playing field refers to the vehicles in the field.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
70:
Doo doo doowoo doo doo doowoo doodle doo love me some Sanford and Son
You misunderstood my Prius hostility somewhat. They are by no means junk right now in June 2008. However, once the first serial hybrid is mass produced the Prius, as currently implemented, is obsolete. There is no reason to have a parallel hybrid 4 seater econo vehicle when a a vehicle that vastly outperforms the parallel hybrid in its designed function (city driving fuel efficiency) is readily available. I don’t care if Toyota comes out with the Super Deluxe 100th generation Parallel Hybrid, its still obsolete technology in a world where Serial Hybrids are ubiquitous.
The two mode hybrid 30+ MPG SUV is also obsolete when a serial or EV is widely available that performs its function (towing performance + fuel efficiency).
In the TV market 5 years ago would you have purchased a DLP thin tube TV or spent a “little” extra for that HD LCD or Plasma? The same type of dynamics exist, barring marketing or any type of campaigning, between the Parallel vs. Serial Hybrid changeover.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Jeff #70
‘The ability of the VOLT to perform as an “energy miser” and “hotrod” is yet to be seen.’
Good statement but,
The volts a lot closer to both than vehicles were just a couple of years ago. Check out the progress.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
62 Grizzly sez:
“I hope you’re right, but I still can’t understand their persistence with H2.”
No, no. Wagoner’s sincerely trying to sell them off now. The H3s too.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Mien #62
Actually they’re both equally ridiculous! One is a guzzler the other a hope for some that makes no sense.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Morgan #70
I agree with your conclusion about hybrids being toast. Some hybrid fans comment about hybrid improvements in the future, do they think the EV will be at a dead end ? There’s no end in sight for the EVs battery development.
One question I have, GM is developing an led headlight, but what will keep ice, snow and condensation from accumulating on the headlights.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
15 years ago when I used to go camping every weekend we had a golf cart. The golf cart was built in 1989 and my dad bought it for under $300. Using lead acid batteries we could drive it around all day long with 4 people up big hills and everything. It had quite a bit of power. I would roll backwards on a hill them jam it forward and it would do a wheelie. The reason I meantion this is because it was simple in my mind. Make this thing 5 times bigger and you have a car. Now there is much better technology out there now than this 1989 golfcart (which still runs today) The batteries are so much better now.
Transportation is the number one use of oil for this country. Electric cars is the way. We need them fast.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
74 Griz:
Actually there’s a super-secret H4 pilot project to salvage the iconic macho image market with a 2-mode hybrid diesel AWD CUV with a plug-in 35 mile AER.
But only if they can’t sell it first.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
I love those stupid ANALyst that work for investment companies. They are just pushing their narrow-minded, extremely short term views to try and make a quick buck. They don’t give a damn about long term prospects of any company. They are a big reason most investment money moved overseas years ago.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
For the record, I don’t believe that drilling for oil off our coasts is the answer. We are addicted for oil. We don’t need anymore of it.
If tomorrow there is no oil left in the world, will we all shrivel up and die????????????
No way, we would adapt so fast. Its pointless to ignore the inevitable.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
mien #77
Throw in an Eestor, up the AER to 350 vapor miles and it’s ….SOLD!
June 26th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Baby steps.
-Dr. Leo Marvin-
June 26th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Promise of funding or not, B Hussein Obama is an idiot and should never have been elected to any public office.
A vote for Obama is a vote for socialism, big government and more taxes.
Hope is an emotion, not a plan.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Energy might already be the biggest issue in this election. Even if traditionally Dems have been thought to be better on the environment, It’s still going to take big business to bring us PEVs. And as has been mentioned on this site, energy independence is a non partisan issue.