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GM CEO Rick Wagoner Tells Obama About the Chevy Volt and Gives Financial Assurances

June 26th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

GM CEO Rick Wagoner attended a forum with Barack Obama and other automotive executives and academics today at Carnegie Mellon University.

Obama asked automakers how the next President could help them through the current crisis.

Wagoner asked for help with research funding to develop advanced batteries and vehicles.

Per the article:

Wagoner sounded a note of optimism, noting GM’s plan to introduce the plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt by 2010 and more advanced research on hydrogen fuel-cells. But he said the researchers developing batteries for hybrids and taking hydrogen power from the lab to the highway need federal research money. And he asked for government help to offset the high costs of newer technologies for consumers — aid that traditionally has come in the form of tax credits.

In other news, after the forum, Wagoner tried to give Reuters some reassuring words about GMs recent steep financial difficulties saying:

“As we’ve said before, we’ve got a very good, solid funding base under any scenario we see, solid through the end of this year. We have a lot of options to fund beyond that.”

Posted by: Lyle

141 Responses to “GM CEO Rick Wagoner Tells Obama About the Chevy Volt and Gives Financial Assurances”

Johnnie Paul Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

But where does Obama stand in relation to plug-in, electric and reduced dependancy on turmOIL?

Sounds like it was a good conference…go GM!!

Johnnie

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DA Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Ooh, big government help us!!! Once again with the dam hydrogen fuel cells. If GM had invested all those 100s of millions they blew on fuel cells into advanced batteries like perfecting large format NIMH and LION they wouldn’t need any help. They’d own the tech outright and be hitting the market with a 100 mi BEVs for $20K, and chevy volt for $30K today. Toyota and company would be licensing the batteries from them at a very dear price and they’d be number one once again.

Instead they go hat in hand to Obama. What a joke…

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Dave B Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

McCain has a track record for wanting higher gas taxes and tax credits specifically for the purpose of supporting EVs. I trust him over the “change” guy simply because I don’t know what change is coming. Although I did read an article where Obama specifically stated he supports flex fuel vehicles and fuel cells. Let’s face it, if the Volt was the number one election issue, McCain would win by a landslide.

For the record, I’m not on the McCain bandwagon…my guy went down about six months ago.

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redndahead Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

#2 DA

Hydrogen is still a part of our future. It’s a proven technology and it has far reaching benefits beyond just vehicles. Storage, waste, refuel times are just a few of the benefits you get in hydrogen systems over battery systems.

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MarkFLL Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Dave B

“McCain has a track record for wanting higher gas taxes and tax credits specifically for the purpose of supporting EVs.”

Isn’t this the guy who wants a “tax holiday” for gas?

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Kent Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

I don’t have a lot of faith in Obama because I don’t really know what he stands for. All I hear from him is the same stuff I’ve been hearing from all the other democrats. He’s only the democratic nominee because he is “different” from the status quo and people really want change from the status quo. I would have been happy with the a Clinton or Edwards nominee with Obama as VP. He can have the White House in 8 years after he gets more experience.

As for McCain, I like the fact that he has a reputation for doing what he believes, even if he has to cross party lines. I like his recent proposal for tax credits on EVs and the $300M reward for battery development. However, I’m totally against his idea of a “gas-tax holiday” or more drilling. These are both only temporary solutions and the nation needs to focus on long-term solutions.

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hermant Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

It’s good to see that Obama is paying attention to the issue, though the timing would suggest that he is playing catch up with the McCain campaign. I wonder how much either candidate really knows about these various technologies and how much of it is being directed by their political handlers? Whoever gets the job, they’ve got to ignore all of the history and support PHEVs like the Volt in order to get the US off imported oil!

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SteveF Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

I hear many people say they do not know what Obama plans are on many subjects. His web site has great amount of details. For those interested below is link to his Energy plans.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/EnergyFactSheet.pdf

I do believe they both need to get more up to speed on the subject and it is good that energy is becoming important issue for this election. Just hoping that whomever wins it will not just be talk but really a major focus of action to get this country oil independent.

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Jim Rowland Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Does he have 300 million?
well even so its good to see interest

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Joe OBrien Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Why the hell is there a McCain ad on the page talking about Obama?

That is sickening.

Here’s my response.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU

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Paul-R Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Way off topic … reminds me of a joke I heard a while back (from when Hilary was still in the race)…

————-

We in Denmark cannot figure out why you are even bothering to hold an election in the US.

On one side, you have a bitchy lawyer married to a womanizing lawyer, running against a flip-floppy lawyer who is married to a bitchy lawyer.

On the other side, you have a war hero married to a well-endowed good looking woman who owns a beer distributorship.

Is there really a contest here?

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Couts Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Kent (#6),

I agree that the “gas-tax holiday” is not a good idea; however, drilling for more oil is not a short term solution. As much as I’d like electric cars (powered by a clean and efficient nuclear-powered electric grid) to become the norm, oil is here to stay for at least another century. It is, therefore, in America’s best interest to drill for oil, and the sooner the better.
I am a McCain supporter, by the way, despite his proposing the gas tax holiday. I just think he is what the country needs right now. On the other hand, when it comes to supporting the Chevy Volt, either McCain or Obama will do the right thing and help all of us (and GM) to get behind the wheels of an American-made Chevy Volt.

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Neil Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Actually, Obama had a comprehensive energy plan (I don’t care for all of it) long before McCain had one but he didn’t draw enough attention to it early enough leaving room for McCain to make the issue his own. What a relief to see two intelligent (and quite possibly integrity too) candidates this time around. My only concern would be with the source of McCain’s funding.

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Paul-R Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

At least we now know that both candidates are aware of the viability of electric cars and the use of electricity as a viable transportation fuel.

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OzoneLevel Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

#2 DA
Right on! Hydrogen research is a waste of money and is just an attempt by oil companies and distributors to continue to keep us enslaved to their supply chain. Hydrogen as an energy storage has been demonstrated over and over to be the least efficient compared to battery technology. The only thing it appears to offer now is fast refueling. That will never happen because by the time a nationwide infrastructure would be in place, batteries will have advanced to the point of making refueling a moot point.

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KentT Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Obama, McCain and especially Mr. Wagoner seem to be oblivious to the millions of dollars the federal government AND the auto manufacturers have ALREADY poured into the “U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium (USABC), a part of the United States Council for Automotive Research (USCAR), an organization founded by DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors that works with the Department of Energy (DOE)” http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/07/010265.html
see also: http://www.uscar.org/guest/view_team.php?teams_id=12

Efforts such as these show how America continues to make buggy whips in the age of automobiles while countries like Japan are able to create government/industry synergy which leads to real economy growing products.

Let’s just hope history repeats itself (e.g. Stealth is actually based on Russian research but ignored by the Russians) and someone dusts off some of this battery research and discovers we have had the fundamental technology for electric car batteries for YEARS. Senator McCain, please award the $300M to the USABC. (Or to that Stanford researcher for his advanced Li-ion battery.)

Pathetic. Just pathetic.

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

I’ll just copy and paste my reaction to this news I posted in the last thread, seems like so far we will not be touching on the important part of this ‘Wagoner speak’

Wagoner said:
“We’ve got a very good, solid funding base under any scenario we see, solid through the end of this year,” Wagoner told reporters after an economic event hosted by U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama. “We have a lot of options to fund beyond that.”

Translation:
You remember that nonesense we said about having lots of money to get through 3-4 years and to ‘ride out the economic downturn’? (his words exactly) Well, apparently, we only have enough to last another 6-7 months for sure. The lots of ‘other options’?…yeah that means about 8 billion in facility, thats it. They are just setting the base for “bringing the pain” next week on the sales.

You can believe GM is pounding the pavement looking for more financing right now, and the doors are being closed in their face. No one is going to give GM a nickel now.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

#15, Ozone,

Thankyou for admitting that hydrogen fuel cells have the advantage of rapid refills. I never hear that from the battery fanboys.

I am a fan of moving forward on all options – batteries, fuel cells, ultra / super capacitors, non-food ethanol, non-food bio-diesel, etc. Given the recent introduction of the Jatropha Curcas plant to the US, which has many times the fuel capacity per acres than corn, but requires little water or fertilizer, I now think bio fuels have a serious place in the mix:

[url=http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=749&highlight=jatropha][u]Linnk[/u][/url]

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Further to Wagoner saying they have enough cash to get through the year and then some. I decided to add something to my cut and paste from the last thread.

What Wagoner said today, and this should be important to us, is that GM DOES NOT have the cash to get the Volt to market. There is no scenario that GM can make it through this market, other than buyout, bankruptcy or massive government intervention.

Now under the security of Chapter 11, they may be able to follow through on the Volt, because it is a strong direction, making it viable. But rest assured there is no guarantees that this would happen. Sometimes, good assets/brands/ideas are sold or shuttered. It is a total game changer.

Today was the worst day for the Volt in this site’s history.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Ozonelevel,

Thanks for admitting that hydrogen has rapid refill capabilities. I can’t get the battery fanboys to do that.

Now that Jatropha curcus has been introduced into the US, I think bio-diesel has a serious chance of being a major player in our future alternative fuels mix.

I think Wagoner’s comments are just an admission that there isn’t much that the government can do about our current situation, now that the CAFE standards for the next dozen years are set. Research dollars will help a little, but GM is really going to need cheap government loans sometime in the next decade.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Statik,

Don’t worry, the government will give GM loans through the sale of low interest government Green bonds to the public. The Volt will come out, GM will regain market share, the stock price will go back up and GM will pay off the loans.

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Wise Golden Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

#10 says…”Why the hell is there a McCain ad on the page talking about Obama?

That is sickening.”

The answer is that McCain paid to have it there. Is commerce really that foreign to all Obama supporters?

Anyway, I’m not sure that anyone really caught the irony of the Obama meeting considering he called McCain’s plan to reward the developer of a super battery as ridiculous.

Project Lexington looks pretty good to me. Se it at McCain’s web site.

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Jackson Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

Paul-R (#14):

“At least we now know that both candidates are aware of the viability of electric cars and the use of electricity as a viable transportation fuel.”

…and that’s really all we can say, at this point.

We’d better not depend on government, or a candidate, “doing the right thing.”

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

#20 Jason M Hendler

“Don’t worry, the government will give GM loans through the sale of low interest government Green bonds to the public”

Well thats one of the three scenarios of “buyout, bankruptcy or massive government intervention,” I look forward to seeing the announcement.

I think its a terrible decsion for the government to take on more and more burden as ‘large iconic corporations’ start to fall on the knife. They are going down the same path as the people they bail out. But I will still take my Volt and let the citizens of America pay the price for it. Sad, but true.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

I’ve kind of liked McCain since he did his “Straight Talk Express” bus tour thing in the 2000 election. However, I’m concerned about the people he has around him … people like ex-Senator Phil Gramm of Texas who is responsible for this “Enron loophole”.

http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/the-petro-manipulators/index.html

We all know how totally corrupt those Enron schemers were … especially the people in California. Enron is kaput and their white collar criminal leaders are in jail. McCain’s chief economic advisor is none other than Phil Gramm. Gramm was probably really good buddies with those Enron schemers from Houston. I would get rid of Phil Gramm if I were McCain. He might somehow convince McCain to sneak in a loophole that makes our energy and economic situation even worse for us average Joes … but GOOD for the people Gramm wants to help out.

I think McCain is a good guy but he might be undereducated about certain issues like energy and vulnerable to armtwisting from some of his advisors … who probably have ulterior motives behind their advice. I like McCain’s new green issues advisor though, James Woolsey. He spoke at the Google.org Plug in Conference. I’m sure he’ll tell McCain that plug-in cars like the Volt are going to be a KEY thing to deal with our oil addiction and dependence on countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran and Venezuela, etc.

Plug in cars like the Volt will be a good thing for everyone … not just Big Oil. The speculators won’t be able to manipulate electricity prices like they can with oil and other commodities. If they did, you’d REALLY see some ticked off people … all over the world. The world would down the tubes bigtime if average people couldn’t afford to keep their electricity on.

Whether he’s still a senator or the next Prez in November, McCain needs to think for himself and look at ALL sides of the issues and do what is best for ALL of the American people …. not just the “special interests”.

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Morgan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Posted in another thread but here it is:

Chapter 11 may be the best thing to happen to GM in 20 years.
Under Chapter 11 they can renegotiate or void the contracts that are crippling their price competitiveness (Or even better if we get some sort of sanity in the health insurance market)

They might not even need a government buyout if they can jettison their contracts, shutter the unions, and then sell the following brands: Hummer, Pontiac, GMC, and Buick.

Pontiac almost HAS to be there in order to make the other 3 palatable. GM’s forward thinking has all Volt materials and research in two departments Chevrolet and Opel that GM can’t sell off or splinter off and hope to remain GM and a global business.

(The retiree benefits are the single most crippling thing GM has on the table. They are paying SUPPLIER retirees 75% of wages on retirement…amazing)

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Van Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

We need Lithium Ion battery production facilities, not more research funds, lets go to war with the technology we have, rather than surrender because our technology is not as good as it needs to be. In WWII, improved versions of our war fighting equipment rolled out several times during the war, does the P51 version D ring a bell. That is the one that flew all the way to Berlin, then attacked ground targets on the way home.

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Dick G. Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

#20 Jason,….I think your right on, and with G.M. stock at a 53 year low today, we added it to our company’s 401K Plan….Goooo G.M……!!!!!!!…..Gooooo ….Volt…!!!!

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BillR Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

#11 Paul-R

Thanks for the joke! I got a really good laugh from that one.

Its fun too see what people from the rest of the world think of our election process, as it can be quite humorous sometimes.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

#23, Statik,

A loan is not a giveaway, GM would have to pay it back, thereby paying the Green Bond holders their money.

#25, Van,

All the big 3 automakers have to do is insist their battery suppliers build factories in the US, just as foreign countries have done to us for years. CPI promises to build a factory in the US, should they get the Volt contract.

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Gary Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

To Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?

To everybody else: Don’t feed the trolls, remember?

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Steve Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Now economists are predicting $7.00/gallon in 2 years. Hopefully GM and Ford can stop producing those ridiculous SUV’s.

As far as the Denmark reference(joke). It would be quite difficult to find any European supporting a U.S. republican. Even if McCain is a big relief from the Bush years. Only mentioning Obama as a flipflop is quite funny. The McCain of 2000 would be unstoppable this election but he chose to appeal to the crazy rightwing base, switching his positions in many areas. Overall either Obama or McCain will be a big relief from the current retard in the White House.

Passing Buchanan or Carter as the worst presidents ever.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

I bet GM is just as ticked off at Big Oil, OPEC, and the Wall Street speculators as we are these days because of the gas prices. I bet they REALLY want to do some “demand destruction” with their new fleet of hybrids on the way. The Volt will be their flagship car leading the charge against OPEC and Big Oil. I can’t wait. 2010 can’t get here soon enough. Revenge of the Hybrids. Sounds like a Star Wars movie.

Let’s just hope that GM can somehow sell off their inventory of big SUVs and trucks so they can start digging out of their financial problems quicker. They should load up their SUVs and trucks onto container ships and sell them to the OPEC countries who are getting all our gasoline money these days. They can definitely afford it these days. I hear that you can get a gallon of gas for $.25 cents in Venezuela. Sell ‘em some gas guzzlers, they don’t care. Send some more to the Saudis and the other oil sheik countries in the Middle East. I bet you can get gas for about a $1 a gallon there.

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M1EK Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Good lord, the delusion. GM’s hybrids are awful; and the Volt was originally nothing more than FUD to stop people from buying Priuses until gas prices got cheap again and GM could go back to what they did best: making big SUVs and loathing people who actually want to buy small cars.

The fact that the Volt is now the only thing that might save the company doesn’t mean GM ever intended it to be serious, nor that they deserve anything but healthy skepticism at this point given how much previous government money they turned into shareholder dividends and SUVs.

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ross Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

Here’s a way that government could help increase public interest in EVs –

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/news/article4187546.ece

Hard to admit we’re behind the Brits, even harder I’ll bet for them to admit that they’re behind the French.

And with a little programming the electric AC/Heater could have the cabin cool/warm along with having the battery topped off when you get off work. 40 mile EV range is now 80 miles round trip.

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butters Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

Of course, when Obama talks about investing in sustainable technology, he’s being a typical big-government liberal, whereas when McCain does the same thing, he’s being a bipartisan maverick.

I don’t agree with all of Obama’s energy policy. In my view, he’s clearly wrong on ethanol, questionably wrong on nuclear, and misleading on “clean coal” (in that he actually means 100% CC&S whereas the coal industry uses it as a marketing slogan).

However, it’s clear to me that McCain’s policy of perpetual military adventurism and tax cuts will only add to the public debt that I (and my future children) will have to pay. We need to simultaneously raise taxes and cut spending. McCain won’t do either. At least Obama will raise taxes on those making over $600K and reorient our foreign relations posture from hegemonic imperialism to multilateral diplomacy.

Many Americans don’t “know” Obama, but the McCain they think they know is not the one that’s running for president in 2008. I would have much preferred McCain to Bush in 2000, but today’s McCain is campaigning miles to the neocon right of where Bush campaigned in 2000 as a compassionate conservative with a humble foreign policy. Remember when Bush out-Gored Gore by trumping his voluntary carbon emissions caps with mandatory caps? That certainly didn’t happen in the Bush/Cheney White House!

What troubles me the most about McCain is that if he’s starting to the right of where Bush left off, then how far to the right would he take this country in 4 years? What can we expect from a man who’s lived off the taxpayers since he was born on a Panamanian naval base, a spouse of a billionaire heiress that nevertheless receives a full government pension, who advocates YOYO (you’re on your own) economics for the rest of us? What does he know about life in the deregulated market/society he wants for us?

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Jackson Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Statik isn’t a troll.

My guess is, we’ll see a lot of trolls on this particular thread.

I think I’ll sit the rest of this one out.

In conclusion:

I have less confidence in our government doing the right thing, under anybody, than Statik has in the economic future of GM. The great thing about the Volt was that it didn’t require any political deadlock to break, or any ‘common sense’ on the part of the ruling class.

Good night, all.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

M1EK:

It sure looks to me like the Chevy Volt is causing a bunch of OTHER car companies to get on the advanced hybrid bandwagon in a big way. GM is leading the pack this time with the Volt and lithium ion batteries. You gotta give GM credit for having the cajones to do what they are doing with the Volt. The Volt is definitely going into production you know. Just today, Volkswagen announced a new plug in hybrid that sounds very similar to the Volt’s “series hybrid” (ER-EV) drivetrain.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html

VW is calling their drivetrain “Twin Drive”. They are showing pictures of their Twin Drive Golf, but I bet we don’t see it in America until sometime in late 2012. GM will have the Volt on the roads in late 2010/early 2011. GM has a pretty good lead on the competition. I’m hoping they don’t blow it and let all the other guys catch up … especially Toyota.

GM needs to go “pedal to the metal” with the Volt project. Get ‘er done and get ‘er done right. GM has their best engineers working on this project. It’s GM’s #1 project. It’ll probably get all the development money they need to do it right. GM shareholders ought to be happy campers in a few years.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Let’s not get too political on this one. Both politicians promise help to offset the high costs of newer technologies for consumers. These are politicians talking. They aren’t always succesful in accomplishing their vision. There are other forces at play. Remember, when debating in 2000, our current president said,

“I’m going to be judicious as to how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest, the mission needs to be clear, and the extra strategy obvious.”

Even though invading Iraq was not judicious, not in our vital interest, and we had no exit strategy, at least the mission was clear as mud. His hands were tied, he had to invade Iraq, and he couldn’t keep his campaign promise . So, don’t consider campaign promises as set in concrete. Just look to the constituency that the promiser represents. That is how they will act. If you are inclined one way or another, I don’t care. If you are just cheering one side on, that is of no value to me. Do we really need braod “I love/hate McCain/Obama” declarations here? Both say they will help promote newer technologies. The devil is in the details, the true conviction, and subject to change with the political realities.

If we want to compare candidates to see who would further our common interests; advancing automotive technology; let’s use facts. McCain represent a traditional republican constituency and Obama represents a traditional democratic constituency. Which constituency is more likely to further our common interests?

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Murray Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

GMVoltFan # 31 …. another solid idea – export all gas-guzzlers! There are several reasons that makes sense over-and-above what you’ve mentioned.
The current exchange rate on the USD$ plus are there even roads in Venezula and the Middle East? … perfect for those types of vehicles….love it!

M1EK #32 …. I know why Statik is here but doesnt sound like you have a good reason…oh well

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Tim Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………..

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ross Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

On the subject of trolls . . . I read these posts for several months before joining in, and have always appreciated Statik’s posts, whether as food for thought or chuckles.

If you don’t like what someone posts, don’t read it, or learn to scan. JMHO

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DA Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

Hydrogen V. Batteries

Even NIMH batts can charge to 80% in under 30 minutes. Better if they figure out a way to do prismatic large format. The A123 batteries can do the same in 15 minutes or less w/o breaking a sweat.

Now I know the idea of 150 amp 480 volt charge stations costing $5k sounds out there, but not nearly as out there as Hydrogen pumps $1 mil a pop. You could do rapid charge stations MUCH more cheaply. In fact i bet the likes of Home Depot and Walmart will offer them just to bring customers in. Municiple lots will give priority spaces to BEVs and PHEVs…

I have yet to hear Hydrogen advocates admit to THAT!

Let us also imagine this is paired up with distributed solar. I am not sure, but i bet the same large scale power inverters could also act as rectifiers when needed to rapid charge a BEV. I think they have a few in Cali already… One technology subsidizes the other, or as the biz school buzz word is ’synergy.’

So imagine a Walmart parking lot with ‘Palm tree’ tracking solar arrays and BEV/PHEV charge ports. With the advancements Sunpower claims to be making over the next 5 years it will all be economical w/o subsidies. Heck Walmart’ll probably eventually clean-up on it!

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Murray Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

I say focus Hydrogen on mass transit — mainly on the airlines.
- there are way less airports than gas stations

The more we hear about hydrogen in our cars the more Big Oil sits back and enjoys it……..its a diversion!

Keep the batteries for our cars…..

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Couts Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

M1EK,

Healthy skepticism is one thing (a necessary thing), but calling everybody that posts in this site delluded, just because we believe the Volt is a palpable reality, is a little over the top. Ok…a lot. I bet you’re probably already regretting posting that comment.

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ross Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

Maybe a GOOD example of your tax dollars at work?

DOE working with A123 –

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503

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Tim Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Looking at these comments I’m shocked so many republicans come to this web site. They must be worried about their Oil assets.

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omegaman66 Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Vote for Communism in the next election!!!

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DA Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

#45 Tim,

I guess you just learned that the desire for electric vehicles cuts across the political spectrum. Something that appeals to the tree-hugging, latte drinking, bong-hitting, livin’ in sin liberals as well as the child labor exploiting, warmongering, bible-thumping conservatives.

Only problem is, neither of these left vs right interests control our gov’t. That’s right Dorothy, time to take away your innocents! Big Oil, The Military Industrial Complex, and various other corporatist special interests control our gov’t. And its not consistent with liberal OR conservative values. Our leaders just pander to that “crap” the voters care about, and get back to the looting for their particular brand of special interest once in office.

–DA

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Jeff Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

#36 GM Volt Fan

GM has a pretty good lead on the competition. I’m hoping they don’t blow it and let all the other guys catch up … especially Toyota

Hmmm…it is debatable on the auto technology leader, but not in hybrid sales. Toyota is probably somewhere between 5-10 years ahead of GM in the market.

- 1 million + hybrids sold since their intro in 2000
- more hybrids sold than all other competitors combined
- aftermarket companies converting their hybrids to PHEVs.

As for PHEVs, Toyota has had mules longer than GM. Years of experience in the hybrid market with volume should not be taken lightly. If the PHEV aftermarket conversion takes off for the Prius, the used Priuses with a PHEV conversion will probably be a strong competitor of the VOLT. In the mean time, Toyota can learn from the mistakes of GM and the aftermarket companies before releasing their version.

As golfers know…not putting first can be an advantage.

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akojim Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Well… OK, I bit and followed the above link and saw this:

As a U.S. senator, Barack Obama has led efforts to jumpstart federal investment in advanced vehicles, including combined plug-in hybrid/flexible fuel vehicles, which have the capability of getting well over 250 miles per gallon of gasoline.

250 mpg! I’m in, I want to drive an Obama. The Volt is a gas hog!

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Couts Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

#45,

Republicans are environmentalists, too. But you have to protect the environment while using common sense, without wrecking our economy or our ability to compete globally. If we had done everything the greenies have wanted and proposed throughout the decades, the US right now would be a third-rate country, with unemployment figures typical of European countries and gas prices (and inflation) three or four times more that what we’re seeing right now (again, typical of European countries). But short-sighted environmentalist policies have prevailed in some cases. How is it possible, for example, that the country that developed nuclear power does not use it to the extent that the French do? Answer, fears fostered by left-wing environmentalists. Ironically, had the US pursued Nuclear Power back in the 70s, our environment would be much better off for it.

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omegaman66 Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

I hate to actually take up for Obama but the Volt is quite capable of getting 1000 miles to the gallon.

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Morgan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

48 Jeff:

Parallel hybrids which if I recall my Prius research basically means jack all regarding Electric Range. Plug em in all you want but if you have a lead foot and like to drive 80 mph big whoop.

Series Hybrids? no problem, mash that pedal down all you want, for 40 miles my electrons have your gas mileage covered.

In short, Toyota’s hybrids are junk once someone comes out with a Series Hybrid and Toyota’s hybrids are junk for anyone who: tows, hauls, or moves heavy equipment.

With GM’s Two Mode hybrid VUE and a high MPG SUV (which GM has ALWAYS crushed Toyota on) I wouldn’t count GM out. I do think they will file bankruptcy but the bankruptcy is going to allow them to get rid of some very nasty stuff and out the other side they will come out more than able to kick butt and a very competitive company.

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Don Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Again, from June 2007, Obama’s proposal:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/us_senators_int.html

US Senators Introduce Bill to Promote Plug-In Electric Drive Vehicles, Including Plug-In Conversions
18 June 2007
US Senate Finance Committee members Senators Maria Cantwell (D-WA) and Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) have introduced a bill to support the development of commercially viable plug-in electric drive vehicles (PEDVs), including pure battery-electric, plug-in hybrid electric, and plug-in fuel cell vehicles.

The bill—the Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007, or FREEDOM ACT (S.1617)—would provide four significant tax incentives:

A tax credit for consumers who purchase plug-in electric or plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Freedom Plug-in Credits would cover the consumer purchase of vehicles which use batteries and which plug into the electric grid for at least part of their power. This would include plug-in electrics, plug-in hybrids, and others.

The amount of the credit is a $2,000 base plus $400 for each kilowatt hour of traction battery pack capacity in excess of 2.5 kWh, with a cap of $7,500 for passenger vehicles of up to 10,000 pounds. A GEM (gasoline-ethanol-methanol) flex-fuel plug-in or a plug-in vehicle warranted by its manufacturer to run on biodiesel receives an extra $150. The same is true for heavier duty vehicles, except that the caps are scaled up for each vehicle weight class and range from $10,000 to $20,000. ….

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Kent Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

A little off topic, but….

CA has the law that says all vehicles require a smog check every other year. Would this apply to the Volt?

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noel park Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

#34 butters:

Thank you.

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noel park Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

#53 Don:

Thank you too.

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ross Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

54. Kent

If it has a tailpipe it’s going to get probed )

Good news is that the catalytic converter on your Volt should last a looooong time, unless you spend a lot of time driving it cross country.

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

What is going on here?

I go away for a couple hours and everyone is all defending me and whatnot? I’m bringing you all free “Volt” hats at the next Volt Nation…just don’t tell anyone where you got it…or I’ll get sued.

Wait…maybe I shouldn’t say that here…crap.

No hats for anyone…wink,wink. Get Lyle to ok it the next time he’s down at HQ, lol.

Cheers

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Ed M Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

GM Drops to 53-Year Low, Goldman Urges “Sell”

I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for GM, just when the Volt is looking so promising.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=5252476

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DonC Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

The good thing about McCain is that you believe he has an energy policy, which is quite a step up from the “leader” we have in the White House now.

On the other hand I just can’t squre his energy policy with the Iraq war. McCain was a big propenent of the war and he’s still in love with it. But the ONLY reason we’re in Iraq is the oil. (Anyone who thinks bringing freedom to the Iraqi people means anything is delusional. As Alan Greenspan has pointed out, if we wanted to promote democracy we have plenty of opportunities around the world which we haven’t taken).

So rather than spending the one or two TRILLION dollars in Iraq why not just buy everyone a VOLT. Forget the $7,500 credit, bring on the $25,000 credit. It would be cheaper and we’d save more oil than we’ll ever get out of Iraq. Plus we’d all have nice new cars instead of some of us having artificial limbs.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

#50 Couts

If we had done everything the “green” republicans wanted and proposed throughout the decades, we would be better off? That seems like a stretch.

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Grizzly Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

GMVF # 31

“I bet GM is just as ticked off at Big Oil, OPEC, and the Wall Street speculators as we are these days because of the gas prices.”

*** *** ***

I hope you’re right, but I still can’t understand their persistence with H2. I understand wanting to experiment with it a little in case the car market turns in ways they never expected but I can’t understand Wagoner even worrying about further funding that is definitely needed for E-flex development. THAT doesn’t make much sense.

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Realist Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

Is their anything the government can do to help? Sure…you can start by disbanding the UAW that Toyota and Honda seem to do well enough without.

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Dave G Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

#4 redndahead:

Hydrogen is the biggest scam going. The oil companies are pushing hydrogen because they know it won’t work.

If you don’t believe me, how about the head of the European Fuel Cell Forum?
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html

Here’s a quote:
“The advantages of hydrogen praised by journalists (non-toxic, burns to water, abundance of hydrogen in the Universe, etc.) are misleading, because the production of hydrogen depends on the availability of energy and water, both of which are increasingly rare and may become political issues, as much as oil and natural gas are today”

Hydrogen is meant to deceive us. That’s why they call them FOOL SELLS!

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Grizzly Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Ross #44

Thanks for the link. It’s good to see some sort of collaboration, but I’d really like to see some serious funding from our government! I can’t believe this hasn’t happened.

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Dave G Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

“Well, I don’t believe that climate change is just an issue that’s convenient to bring up during a campaign. I believe it’s one of the greatest moral challenges of our generation. That’s why I’ve fought successfully in the Senate to increase our investment in renewable fuels. That’s why I reached across the aisle to come up with a plan to raise our fuel standards… And I didn’t just give a speech about it in front of some environmental audience in California. I went to Detroit, I stood in front of a group of automakers, and I told them that when I am president, there will be no more excuses — we will help them retool their factories, but they will have to make cars that use less oil.”

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Dave G Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

#60 DonC:

I think you have a realistic view. I agree with everything you say.

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Dave G Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

#46 omegaman66 says: “Vote for Communism in the next election!!!”

This is no joke. I saw first hand how communism worked in Eastern Germany. My wife was in Moscow during the coup. In any realistic comparison to the west, communism sucks.

However, there are a lot of western social democratic countries that seem to work pretty well. For example Germany & France seem to be doing pretty well. Their currency is way up against ours.

I’m not a socialist, or capitalist. I’m a pragmatist.

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fred Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

#2 DA
Only asking for what every other government is allready doing for it’s citizens and exsistence.
Some free financing and some kind of government rebate helps me buy a Volt! Would be nice to get a bit of help from the government I’ve been paying taxes to for over forty years.

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Jeff Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

#52

I’m not counting GM out at all…and GM should not count Toyota out. However, GM has been counting Toyota out on hybrids for years now. So I’ll rephrase 1 million + sold vehicles to al the so-called junk lovers of the world. It would make Fred Sanford proud. Sorry…but I could not resist. It sholud be noted that those junk vehicles even sold with low gas prices. Could have GM done the same? GM was not even on the playing field…hybrids were considered a passing fad or a stop gap for the fuel cell vehicles that are just around the corner.

If nothing else then, the sales evidence shows that not everyone buys a vehicle to tow a RV or boat. I agree…GM makes great vehicles for hauling and towing…and they have the market share to prove it. Also you are correct ,the various hybrid designs have pluses and minuses. I doubt most people in the market for a 4 seater car are concerned about towing capacity. As for performance, hybrid or not….80mph reduces MPG or miles per KWH significantly. The ability of the VOLT to perform as an “energy miser” and “hotrod” is yet to be seen.

The above comments are food for thought for GM. I worked with GM for years…quality poeple there. All aspects of the VOLT need to be 100%. Especially since they are coming onto the volume production playing field cold.

- Manufacturing
- Technology
- Marketing
- Continous improvement

Defintion: playing field refers to the vehicles in the field.

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Morgan Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

70:

Doo doo doowoo doo doo doowoo doodle doo love me some Sanford and Son

You misunderstood my Prius hostility somewhat. They are by no means junk right now in June 2008. However, once the first serial hybrid is mass produced the Prius, as currently implemented, is obsolete. There is no reason to have a parallel hybrid 4 seater econo vehicle when a a vehicle that vastly outperforms the parallel hybrid in its designed function (city driving fuel efficiency) is readily available. I don’t care if Toyota comes out with the Super Deluxe 100th generation Parallel Hybrid, its still obsolete technology in a world where Serial Hybrids are ubiquitous.

The two mode hybrid 30+ MPG SUV is also obsolete when a serial or EV is widely available that performs its function (towing performance + fuel efficiency).

In the TV market 5 years ago would you have purchased a DLP thin tube TV or spent a “little” extra for that HD LCD or Plasma? The same type of dynamics exist, barring marketing or any type of campaigning, between the Parallel vs. Serial Hybrid changeover.

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Ed M Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

Jeff #70
‘The ability of the VOLT to perform as an “energy miser” and “hotrod” is yet to be seen.’

Good statement but,
The volts a lot closer to both than vehicles were just a couple of years ago. Check out the progress.

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mien green Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

62 Grizzly sez:
“I hope you’re right, but I still can’t understand their persistence with H2.”

No, no. Wagoner’s sincerely trying to sell them off now. The H3s too.

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Grizzly Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:43 pm

Mien #62

Actually they’re both equally ridiculous! One is a guzzler the other a hope for some that makes no sense.

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Ed M Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Morgan #70

I agree with your conclusion about hybrids being toast. Some hybrid fans comment about hybrid improvements in the future, do they think the EV will be at a dead end ? There’s no end in sight for the EVs battery development.
One question I have, GM is developing an led headlight, but what will keep ice, snow and condensation from accumulating on the headlights.

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brad Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

15 years ago when I used to go camping every weekend we had a golf cart. The golf cart was built in 1989 and my dad bought it for under $300. Using lead acid batteries we could drive it around all day long with 4 people up big hills and everything. It had quite a bit of power. I would roll backwards on a hill them jam it forward and it would do a wheelie. The reason I meantion this is because it was simple in my mind. Make this thing 5 times bigger and you have a car. Now there is much better technology out there now than this 1989 golfcart (which still runs today) The batteries are so much better now.

Transportation is the number one use of oil for this country. Electric cars is the way. We need them fast.

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mien green Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

74 Griz:

Actually there’s a super-secret H4 pilot project to salvage the iconic macho image market with a 2-mode hybrid diesel AWD CUV with a plug-in 35 mile AER.

But only if they can’t sell it first.

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Goldman Sucks Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

I love those stupid ANALyst that work for investment companies. They are just pushing their narrow-minded, extremely short term views to try and make a quick buck. They don’t give a damn about long term prospects of any company. They are a big reason most investment money moved overseas years ago.

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brad Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

For the record, I don’t believe that drilling for oil off our coasts is the answer. We are addicted for oil. We don’t need anymore of it.

If tomorrow there is no oil left in the world, will we all shrivel up and die????????????

No way, we would adapt so fast. Its pointless to ignore the inevitable.

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Grizzly Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

mien #77

Throw in an Eestor, up the AER to 350 vapor miles and it’s ….SOLD!

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mien green Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Baby steps.
-Dr. Leo Marvin-

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matt986 Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

Promise of funding or not, B Hussein Obama is an idiot and should never have been elected to any public office.

A vote for Obama is a vote for socialism, big government and more taxes.

Hope is an emotion, not a plan.

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Grizzly Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Energy might already be the biggest issue in this election. Even if traditionally Dems have been thought to be better on the environment, It’s still going to take big business to bring us PEVs. And as has been mentioned on this site, energy independence is a non partisan issue.

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

#78 Goldman Sucks

“I love those stupid ANALyst that work for investment companies. They are just pushing their narrow-minded, extremely short term views to try and make a quick buck. They don’t give a damn about long term prospects of any company. They are a big reason most investment money moved overseas years ago.”

Nice handle.

Actually, I’m not sure if you are complaining about them dumping on GM or them dumping on their investment clients for the last 6 months (leaving the rating at hold all this time it has been dropping).

All these downgrades and credit ratings cuts on the auto segment are not ‘proactive,’ they are reactive….as in, whoopsie, that ‘hold’ rating on GM is looking kind of dumb since we have had it on there since they were at $30, maybe it’s time to change that to a sell. As for them ‘caring’ about the companies…that is not their job, actually that is the opposite of their job.

As for, “They are a big reason most investment money moved overseas years ago,” I think that was common sense. Goldman has gotten burned in their US dollar portfolio pretty good, they got caught in the US subprime fiasco, (relatively speaking however, not nearly as much as it’s peers (evident by their still 75 billion dollar cap)).

I will say this, Goldman Sachs has real investment clout on the street…comparitively speaking. Their upgrades/downgrades carry alot of weight on the market, and other agencies will be soon to follow their lead…look for alot of ‘more of the same’ from the others.

Side note: Goldman was the first out on $100 oil…and that was a bold and ultimately good call, and at a time when most where saying it would settle in the $60-$70 range.

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Ed M Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

brad #79
While I agree we would adapt pretty fast without oil (would we have any other choice ?), adapting fast would cause a great deal of suffering,. The economy as we know it would cease to exist and the standard of living would be thrown back to the 1800s for some time.
Even worse, before oil most of the population lived on farms and were self sufficient with no government handouts. Without oil we can’t even feed ourselves. Judging by the average persons skill sets, most of us would die.
The best thing is an orderly transition from oil to something else. Right now that something else is electricity and we’ll need more nuclear plants to provide that power and less complaining about transmission lines and the like. Very few folks alive today know what an economy without oil would be like. I’m an optimist who believes that we can make the change, but we have to start by electing some people to congress with a few brains. I’m referring to both parties.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

#82 matt986
I know, trolls get hungry too. Here, chew on this…It takes a certain level of intelligence to make a statement like that.

Earning a law degree from Harvard, becoming a State and U.S. Senator, becoming the democratic nominee for president of the U.S. doesn’t seem like something an idiot could do. If it was, I suspect you could do it. I suspect that you wouldn’t recognize an idiot even if one looked you in the face (while looking in a mirror).

I’m not mad at you. I feel sorry that our educational system failed you.

Wait a minute, I’m jumping to conclusions. Maybe Obama is an idiot compared to you. Please, prove it. Say something intelligent.

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Just a little something I wanted to add to the Prius will be junk discussion we have going. And to some extent the parallel/series/2mod/e-rev, etc etc.

The Prius and the Volt are both junk ultimately. So is the 2 mode Vue. The future is full EV, all of these ‘hybrids’ have a limited shelf life. They are both just stop gaps to the next wave. Gas has ruled for 100 years, we will probably have 20 years of crossover, then it’ll be all electric.

The debate is really how long until the Prius is junk? Maybe 10 years? How long until the Volt is junk? 12 years? All semantics really.

Once we can have the technology/cost effectiveness of a car, suv and truck going 200 miles+ all electric, it’s all over. Gas, hybrids, you name it, gone.

Sadly, so to is the ‘North American’ automaker, and for that matter the Japanese automaker. We could have American and Japanese companies that make electric cars, but it won’t be in their native countries. A electric car is at it’s root a very simple thing, the commodity here is the base material, it will no longer be in it’s construction, configuration, performance, emissions standards, etc. like it is now. The car of tomorrow is at it’s base, a large toy…and it will be made in the countries that make toys today.

Flip over your kid’s electrical gadgets, thats where they will be buying their cars from someday.

(Holy, was that off topic…I’m sleepy. I need my rest, tomorrow should be a interesting day, and my computer needs to make more 1s and 0s)

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Statik Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

One last thing:

Political comments suck.
That is all.
G’nite.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

#88 Statik

I agree. I feel a little dirty because I respond to them. I’m fed up with impolite extremists ruining the conversation. But, paying any attention to them probably fuels the fire. From now on, I’ll try to ignore them (it will be hard for me).

The level of debate here should rise above “____ is an idiot.” I appreciate the intellect that many show here. But, this is an internet party; anyone can join. I guess I have to put up with the bad so I can hang out with the good.

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Jeff Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

#71

Hmmm…you make it sound like the “energy storage” industry is on the verge of a giant leap forward or something(s) has been discovered that will progress it at the rate of the electronic industry. If true, these discoveries have not been released to the media or they have not been fully disclosed,

Serial hybrids are not a giant leap forward of parallel hybrids. Toyota’s HSD can operate to 35+ mph on electric drive alone. It could be redesigned to highway speeds. Even if serial hybrids were far superior, Toyota is making money on hybrids while GM is supporting a blank check program. Toyota probably has a serial siting around somewhere.

Another difference…Toyota has been forming business relationships for years with the companies that supply hybrid components. And continous improvement to lower costs and increase performance of their hybrid components.

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jbfalaska Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

Volt Fans, my agency brought in the electrics for a first hand view and test drive today – no Volt of course. The cars were those available now and soon available. Surprising to me was an all-electric Prius with a solar roof.

Here’s another interesting take on Oil hitting $140 a barrel today, defended by the blood and guts of our soldiers at no cost to the rest of the world. No gang, McCain is going to go into war and dump 100s of Billions more into waging these wars for oil. Iran is likely next. Everyone in this country could have had free gasoline for ten years – EVERYONE at the cost of this war.

USAF Retired Military. Enjoy your evening.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fsb/0806/gallery.nextgen_electric_cars.fsb/index.html

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Ron Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 11:22 pm

Looks like a great day to buy some GM stock!

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Gary Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 1:21 am

Again, to Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?

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omegaman66 Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 5:49 am

Jeff the Volt is a big step ahead of parallel hybrids if you look to the future. Lets suppose li-ion batteries continue to improve and drop in cost or lets assume that the eestor uc is indeed viable even if it doesn’t live up to all of the hype. This would mean that ev not hybrids would become even more practical, quickly leading to the dropping of the seriel hybrid for many many purchasers.

The Volt or e-flex design is ready to go if this happens but not the prius. At least not to the extent that the Volt is. For the Prius to loose it ICE it would have to be totaly redesigned! The Volt all you would need to do would be to yank out the motor and add more battery capacity.

There is a ton of research and development into converting things on the volt such as heating and a/c too name only a couple that would need to be reworked on the prius that are already integrated and ready to go on the Volt.

Sure initially the benefits of the serial vs parallel right now aren’t all that apparent too many. But as batteries improve the advantages and disadvantages become more and more apparent.

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Brad G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 6:33 am

#3 Dave B says ” I trust him over the “change” guy simply because I don’t know what change is coming.”
==========
Dave,
Come on…. Repeat after me… Change and Hope… Hope and Change… I Hope I have some Change left in my pocket after all the new taxes he hits us with…

300 Million people in this country and these are the BEST choices we have for President?

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Brad G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 6:48 am

#30 Steve says ” The McCain of 2000 would be unstoppable this election but he chose to appeal to the crazy rightwing base, switching his positions in many areas.”
========
Steve,
McCain is not rightwing.(Gang of 14, Spending like my wife, Kyoto, etc., etc., etc.) I am one of those crazy rightwingers and the only reason I’ll vote for mccain is because he is the less of two evils.

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Statik Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:07 am

#29 Gary
To Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?
To everybody else: Don’t feed the trolls, remember?

#92 Gary
Again, to Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?

Irony.

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Brad G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:07 am

#29 Gary says
“To Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?

To everybody else: Don’t feed the trolls, remember?”
========
Gary,
Not only is Statik my favorite “canuck”, he is also right about GM’s financial situation and gives an insightful view on the auto industry as a whole.

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Dave G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:08 am

#90 Jeff says: “Even if serial hybrids were far superior, Toyota is making money on hybrids while GM is supporting a blank check program.”

All this means is that 5-8 years ago, Toyota’s business plan was on the ball and GM wasn’t. Toyota was willing to lose money on the Prius initially, so now they are ahead in sales. What GM and Toyota are doing now will determine what things will look like in 2013.

The Prius is essentially a gas engine car with an electric motor assist. The Volt is an electric car with a gas engine assist. You can see this in the marketing. With Toyota plug-ins, they’re still talking miles per gallon. GM is talking about not using gas at all.

If you redesigned the Prius to run all electric at highway speeds, you would not only need a larger electric motor, you would also need much larger batteries. By the time you did that with the Prius, you might as well disconnect the motor from the drive train to avoid transmission losses.

Bottom line: If your looking for 40 miles of all electric range, the series hybrid design wins.

As for Toyota having a secret series hybrid design in the works, that would be great. The more competition the better. But don’t underestimate the complexity involved in the control code for the induction electric motor. The Prius motor still uses magnets in the rotor, and the control code for this type of motor is relatively simple. But the problem with magnet based motors is that they don’t scale well. For a motor that fully powers the vehicle, an induction motor is much more efficient and less costly than a magnet based motor, but the control code is vastly more complex.

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Brad G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:16 am

#98 Dave G

This is really just history repeating itself. Back in the 70’s there was the “Arab Oil Embargo”. Japan was in the US selling small cars and the Big 3 “GM, Ford, Chrysler” were producing nothing but big cars. The Big 3 had dealerships full of cars that would not sell and they had to adapt quickly.

The problem is oil got cheap and the US automakers once again started producing cars that got poor gas milage. They didn’t learn then, maybe they will this time.

Conspiracy theorists speculate that the Arab Oil Embargo was actually a behind the scenes deal between the Japanese and OPEC. Japan buys their oil from OPEC and had small cars in the US not selling at the time in the 70’s until the embargo. This was the event that gave Japan automakers a foothold in the US.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:18 am

Hydrogen is a crock. What a waste of money.
Maybe in 20-30 years. But certainly not now. Now we need to concentrate on batteries.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:22 am

#99 Brad G says, “The problem is oil got cheap and the US automakers once again started producing cars that got poor gas milage. They didn’t learn then, maybe they will this time.”

I wonder, my friend. Humans have a history of not learning from our mistakes.

Also, you are correct about the Big 3, but I seem to remember the Big 4 at the time. AMC had some small cars but as I recall, not too many people wanted them. But I’m going from memory which is probably not the most reliable source.

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Brad G Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:31 am

#101 Rashiid

I had totally forgotten about AMC. They were bought by Chrysler for the Jeep line. Other AMC cars that I remember were the Matador, Javalin, and Rambler. I’ll have to Google to remember what they looked like. A mind is a terrible thing…

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:39 am

……to waste. Ya, tell me about it.

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mothermary Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 7:45 am

GM is getting exactly what they have coming to them at the moment, as are all of the American car companies. When you market your cars as if they are Viagra, the bottom drops out when the juice cranks up in price. Silly men, Dix are for kids. Start thinking with your other brain, the one that can plan ahead for 5, 10, 15, and 20 years, and the Volt is what you get. GM had the almost Volt 13-15 years ago, and GM threw it away, as well as the patent for large scale NiMH batteries. What an amazingly sad story the American Auto companies are. And now Ford, setting up to build the Fiesta in Mexico. Amazingly shortsighted, and bad Karma to boot. I am ready for a Volt, but it better be built by Americans (preferably in Michigan or Ohio) out of a large percentage of American components that are fully recyclable. Otherwise, I’m going Think or some other sustainably designed car when I replace my Ohio built Honda Civic in 2010 or 2011.

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Chris Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 8:10 am

Your glorious president added yesterday to his 2006 comment that (”America is addicted to oil….”) that to beat the addiction, “America must produce more oil…”

I thought that was pretty funny. John Stewart should be your president, and Stephen Colbert could be the new era Dick Cheney.

Chris

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M1EK Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 8:16 am

“There is no reason to have a parallel hybrid 4 seater econo vehicle when a a vehicle that vastly outperforms the parallel hybrid in its designed function (city driving fuel efficiency) is readily available”

There’s many wrong assumptions in this very short paragraph. Here’s a few:

1. People buy the Prius because it can function as a family car – not just a daily commuter or econo vehicle – and, yes, it does very well on the highway. As I often have to say to the anti-hybrid FUDers, you wouldn’t be able to get by with such a small gas engine if it were the only thing accelerating up to highway speed (it’d take 30 seconds!), so, yes, the battery does help even on the highway. I get low 50s on the highway; which is better than any car on the market in the US today – even subcompacts.

2. The Volt doesn’t exist. Repeat: The Volt doesn’t exist. If GM can survive until 2010 (2011? 2012?), it MIGHT exist. But think back to 1994 or so when Toyota began development on the 1st-gen Prius (which was only available in Japan). Think about how lame it was in comparison to today’s (3rd-gen) model. Any cautionary tales coming to mind?

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Statik Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 8:31 am

#100 Rashiid

“Hydrogen is a crock. What a waste of money.
Maybe in 20-30 years. But certainly not now. Now we need to concentrate on batteries”

You hurt me Rashiid, more with the hydrogen, lol.
Death by papercuts!

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Gary Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 9:09 am

96 Statik:

Irony? I merely asked the same question again because you avoided answering it. Are you a politician in Ottawa?

P.S. I’m a Canuck as well.

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Tagamet Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am

Not surprisingly, the political views here are polarized AND WILL REMAIN SO. No one is going to change their views based on information presented here (however eloquently or rudely) they are presented here. It’d be like expecting Statik to “Go positive”.
Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road and let the politics at the polls.
Be well,
Tag
PS I’m still betting on a Fourth of July revealing of the production model.

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Morgan Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:16 am

106 M1EK:

1) in 2011 or 2012 when the Serial Hybrids come online that Prius is a dinosaur stop FUDing for Toyota.

2) Yes, Toyota isn’t going to ditch 10 years of iterative advancement to obsolete their product line. They are going to fight Serial Hybrids tooth and nail. At least that is the cautionary tale I got from that.

Bankruptcy of GM doesn’t phase me one bit. I think it is probably necessary given the stacked deck the US automakers are playing with against their foreign competition. Given the political and economic climate a Chapter 11 paradoxically makes the Volt EREV expansion into other vehicles and rush to mass production MORE likely rather than less. Unless of course by “survives” you think GM is just going to shut the doors and say “no mas”

to Mothermary:

Those US workers building your foreign label cars aren’t Union. Ford and GM must employ Union workers for several to many dollars an hour more plus benefits like retirement, healthcare, dependant insurance, among other perks. They can compete in the Truck and SUV segments due to larger margins in which to hide those cost differentials. They CAN’T come close to competing in the low margin small sedan market with those kind of cost differences between them and their main competition.

If you really want to help out the US…force Toyota, Mazda, and Honda to unionize, picket and boycott them until they do so. Then the playing field would level quickly.

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Statik Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:19 am

#108 Gary
“Irony? I merely asked the same question again because you avoided answering it. Are you a politician in Ottawa?”

It’s ironic because you asked why I spend so much time here and inferred I was a troll. Then came back to me…unsolicited and ‘fed the troll’ I’ll recap:

#29 Gary
“To Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?
To everybody else: Don’t feed the trolls, remember?”

#92 Gary
“Again, to Statik: Why do you spend so much time here?”

I’m not avoiding the question, it just served no purpose to answer after your post #29. If you were asking out of sincere interest and expressed it as such, I would have.

If post #29 was directed at you by someone else, would you want to respond to it? If you know I spend so much time here, that means you spend alot of time here as well, you read the threads…which also means you know I care about the Volt program.

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2Snowboard Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am

#32 M1EK

“Good lord, the delusion.”
Good comment, probably the only accurate thing in your post M1EK.

“GM’s hybrids are awful; and the Volt was originally nothing more than FUD to stop people from buying Priuses until gas prices got cheap again and GM could go back to what they did best: making big SUVs and loathing people who actually want to buy small cars.”

Loathing people who buy small cars? I’m calling BS on that, source?

“The fact that the Volt is now the only thing that might save the company doesn’t mean GM ever intended it to be serious, nor that they deserve anything but healthy skepticism at this point given how much previous government money they turned into shareholder dividends and SUVs.”

You can call it “healthy skepticism” till you are blue in the face, its still paranoid raving tangents. Lutz has been behind the battery powered car since coming from his last job at a battery manufacture. They have invested more in this car then probably any unproven technology in their history, they make all their top brass available to public in unprecedented ways, and have accepted that this is so important that its worth losing money at for a few years.

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N Riley Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:49 am

109 Tagamet

I agree. It is regrettably true that no one is going to change their views based on information presented here. Especially when the presenters make their case so well. Ha.

I go away for a day and come back to find just about every weird opinion expressed here when we should be talking about ways to help GM and to prepare for the roll-out of the Volt.

I wish we could all agree to leave politics out of these posts. Not the best of topics anywhere. I know I have expressed my political views a number of times, but reading these today some how makes all of mine seem pretty insignificant when compared to some of the hateful and misleading statements being written here. Let’s tone it down quite a bit. It’s ok to complain about “government”, political parties and such, but let’s keep personalities out of it, please. There are plenty of McCain, Obama and even George W Bush supporters posting comments and we should show them all respect. All of these men love American and have invested large amounts of their time and energy to put forth their hopes and aspirations for this great country of ours. These three men have very different views about how to solve some of our problems (McCain is not George W Bush, I might add) and only time and history will tell which of them have the “correct” vision.

The Iraq war is a terrible thing, I agree. I would not have done it quite the same way that President Bush did it. (And he is still our current President and deserves the title as part of his name.) I was an early supporter of the war, except I felt we needed twice as many troops with half of them sent to seal the borders. That was not done and it allowed outsiders to interfere with the process of getting the Iraqi government working again.

I encourage GM to continue working on the Volt and extend its concept to all of their cars and light duty trucks. GM should make the two-mode hybrid standard on all their larger pick-up trucks and SUV.

That is my two cents worth.

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noel park Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:51 am

#58 Statik:

Are those the cool tinfoil models? If so, sign me up.

#88 Statik:

Well you just saved me a lot of work. I was composing a long diatribe about all of the political comments here, but you preempted me in 3 words. Thanks.

#109 Tagamet:

Well don’t look now, but I think that you just agreed with Statik at #88. What is this world coming to? Thank you as well, as I agree with both of you.

I get quite enough of this on Larry King Live and AC 360, thank you all very much.

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M1EK Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 10:58 am

1. The point was that the first Prius sucked. And Toyota didn’t widely publicize it until the end of the 2nd generation, when the 3rd generation was almost in production – when it didn’t suck. What in GM’s history makes you think they will be able to somehow overcome this same kind of progression? Just because they went public with their plans so early, even though at that point they weren’t really serious about ever producing the car?

2. You don’t think GM hated small car buyers? Really? When they inflicted the Cavalier and Cobalt on the public without ever issuing some kind of apology?

3. Even in the delusional universe where GM can produce the Volt by 2010, they make, what, 40,000 that year? Or is that 2011? So you really think the ‘dinosaur’ by then is going to be the parallel hybrid and NOT the gas-only automobile (or the SUV)? Really?

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N Riley Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:01 am

#111 Statik

I for one am very glad you spend a lot of time on this site. We need your input and I greatly appreciate it even when I don’t always agree with you. You seem negative about GM to some because you post the truth. GM deserves much of what it gets today because of the actions or lack of action it has taken in the past. You keep up the post and I will continue reading them.

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Tagamet Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:06 am

OK, how ’bout we try this (just for this thread).
Everyone who considers themselves rational and reasonable, STOP POSTING.
The rest of the people can post ad nauseum.
See everybody on the next thread (wry smile).
Be well,
Tag

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Jeff M Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:06 am

DA (#2)… you said it! Obama is smart and I hope he does his own research to see the hydrogen hoax… but he is also a politition, and in order to get other legislation passed, may still publically “buy into” a hoax

As butters said… Obama, being a mid-West politition, not to mention the 1st primary contest being in Iowa, is pushing ethanol… and not only that, but pushing very inefficient corn based ethanol and I think is against remove the 50 cents of so a gallon import tarrif on sugar cane based ethanol. Why should be subsidize corn growers every time we fill up (which is 10% ethanol up here in the Northeast)

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noel park Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:10 am

#117 Tagamet:

Oh oh, game over!

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Statik Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:35 am

#114 Noel

No they would be the real deal hats.

As a matter of fact, if Lyle wanted to, (and he had the blessing of GM), I would be more than willing to produce a line of ‘Volt’ ware (at my cost), for him to hock on the site to pay the bills/set up another Volt-together.

I believe in the project and am willing to throw what little clout/influence I have, if called on. (Lyle, you might want to email me regarding your cost on those T-Shirts…just so you know if your getting a good deal or not).

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Statik Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:36 am

#117 Tag

I am humbled by your wisdom…see you on the next thread.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:39 am

Statik. You have my full support.

Tag, N. Riley, and others.

1) This thread is filed under politics.

2) The Volt is crossing the political line because many people want
tax credits for it and also see it as a gas saver.

3) This election season is very very important to some and thus unavoidable for it to come up here.

4) My vote is simple. I vote for the Volt.

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Morgan Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 11:58 am

m1ek:

1) Doesn’t matter. You have a clear choice right now given public verifiable information: one company is pursuing the Serial Hybrid —-> EV route the other company is pursuing the parallel hybrid —-> ??? route. I will say regardless of fit and trim, if 2 or 3 years after Serial Hybrids or EVs are widely available you purchase a Parallel hybrid it would be like going out today and buying a VCR. It might be the best darn VCR available having gone through 5-10 generations of design. But its still a VCR.

2) Okay, this is a pretty easy one. You are $3,000 higher in price than your competition right off the bat due to amortized expense. You can either focus on the down dirty small car market where you are either selling at break-even to be competitive, at a loss, or you are $500 higher than your competition and make less gross profit than they do on each vehicle.

Or

you can sell into the luxury market where price is less an issue than branding and marketing is and you hold the advantage with larger engines plus you can even sell these vehicles for a $3,000 gross profit.

I know exactly where my design and marketing dollars are going. No decision is made in a vacuum.

3) Absolutely. If and When somebody, anybody produces a Serial Hybrid the Parallel Hybrid technology and the ICE only technology is obsolete and a dinosaur. Just because it is still being driven doesn’t make it NOT a dinosaur. I thought it was a given that gas only vehicles would have been included in the dinosaur comment.

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M1EK Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

So your contention is that in 2010^H1^H2, all but 40,000 vehicles being sold will be dinosaurs? Kind of defining down into irrelevance.

And I’m glad we can now all agree that GM hated small car buyers for years and years and years. Somehow, Toyonda (and to a lesser extent Ford) managed to sell decent product to people who actually wanted to buy small cars even when gas was cheap. It wasn’t impossible; GM just didn’t _want_ to.

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jabroni Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Of course, GM doesn’t need federal handouts if they would simply use PROVEN, RELIABLE NiMH batteries such as the Panasonic EV-95 ones found in the 120 mile range Toyota RAV4 EV. In fact, production of the VOLT could begin immediately if GM would take this more sensible route.

I have no idea why GM insists on stubbornly using unproven Li ion batteries in the initial Volts…this tactic makes all of us wait two or three years longer than necessary for the car we want so badly.

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Morgan Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

M1EK:

Yes, because those 40,000 should ramp up to a million in short order. Unless someone with a vested interest in ICE only or Parallel Hybrids wins the marketing war.

on the second part….yep, you have your “gotcha” moment.

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N Riley Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

#122 Rashiid Amul

I agree. I vote for the Volt, also. Problem is, we all need help in the mean time. Well, most of us, anyway. If we don’t get a handle on the price of crude oil soon, we are all going to be making some pretty tough decisions about how do we pay for this vs that. I see no easy solution in the near future, but more talking out of both sides of the politicians’ mouths.

I hate to say it again, but we need to drill now and drill everywhere to provide more crude. At the same time, we need government and industry to work together to develop alternative sources of energy to power our homes, business and our vehicles. (And it is not hydrogen.)

If the oil companies are “sitting” on proven reserves or producing wells that they have capped off to wait for higher prices, two things should happen. One, those leases, if on government land, should be revoked and given to an American company willing to get the oil out. Second, they should be told that high prices have arrived.

We just may get to the point where we have to kick some oil company butt and take a few names.

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M1EK Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

“Yes, because those 40,000 should ramp up to a million in short order. Unless someone with a vested interest in ICE only or Parallel Hybrids wins the marketing war.”

Or unless GM doesn’t have the ability or desire to do so – because the whole point of the Volt was to FUD people away from alternatives and pray that gas got cheap again.

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Morgan Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

M1EK:

That is certainly a possibility. Do you acknowledge it is almost a certainty that GM will go bankrupt?

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Gary Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

111 Statik:

Yes, I am truly interested in why you are on this message board. Although it’s great that you are being realistic/practical (like I am), all the excessive negativeness is annoying. Without writing a novel, I’ll just say I used to have several co-workers who were always being negative and tried to find faults with others and make them look bad, and it sucked the energy right out of me to the point that I wanted to quit. Now that they are gone, I have to see that my outlook on like truly looks brighter.

Food for thought: I remember once reading a comment regarding negativity in the media on the state of the economy and all, and it went something like “Pessimism and self-loathing will inflict far more damage to a society than bombs ever could.” This negativity makes people get all apathetic about where Canadian/American society is going, and makes them lose the drive to be competitive in the world marketplace.

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M1EK Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Morgan, yep, I think GM’s a goner, unless they sucker the government into an ill-advised bailout. Hence “ability or desire”. Bankruptcy would make them unable to go forward with the Volt in anything but the most optimistic scenarios; I’m still not sure they really _want_ to otherwise given how much BS you’re hearing here from people who are repeating old spin about how hybrids are dead-ends. (making the fairly warranted assumption that the commenters here are fairly representative of the GM party line).

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nasaman Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

130 Gary…..
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!! I’ve spent time & made friends in 25 other countries and I can say without fear of contradiction that North Americans are unequivocally the most cynical, negative and prone-to-complain of ANY people I’ve ever met —ANYWHERE!

It breaks my heart, because as you say, “Pessimism and self-loathing will inflict far more damage to a society than bombs ever could”!

The Chevy Volt in particular —and the electrification of the automobile in general— are, after all, hopeful, upbeat, positive, commendable pursuits, right? So lets back off on the negativism ….at least here at gm-volt.com, OK?!?!?!

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Morgan Says:
June 27th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

M1EK;

Disregarding your other commentary you are actually dead wrong on bankruptcy halting the Volt plans. See, the Volt is actually a winner, or could be a winner, winners=profit. Bankruptcy Restructuring forces a company to jettison unprofitable positions (Buick, GMC, Hummer, GMAC, Pontiac) while keeping profitable ones (Chevy Opel etc) and profitable research (EREV)

It also removes contract and retirement benefits obligations.

Why are you here if you want everything to be so disastrous? Are you a paid shill for someone?

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William Says:
June 28th, 2008 at 4:29 am

Its great to see that Mr. Obama who has always had concerns about our country’s dependence on oil, engaged in what will be a important first step for our transportation future. Something that George Bush had no concern with and John McBush is only giving lip service to. Thumbs up to GM with the Chevy Volt.

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j man Says:
June 28th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

I wonder if anyone from the soon to be idled/closed GM plant in Pittsburgh was at this meeting?

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M1EK Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 8:09 am

Morgan, I don’t want my tax dollars going to a company who threw away the last batch of money on publicity stunts so they could keep building SUVs. Very simple, really.

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j man Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

You better run for congress then, thats the only way you will have contol over your taxes and where they go.

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mac Says:
November 5th, 2008 at 12:42 am

Hydrogen is yesterday, Unless Stan Meyers work is taken to the next level providing hydrogen at the pumps is a joke. Still producing a lot of greenhouse gases, just stuffing it into the ground to become our childrens problem will we never learn from past mistakes?

Stans vision would still be my 1st hope, but failing that EV is the way of the future.. Charge your car or free from solar cells on your roof, top up battery with solar panels on vehicle it self while parked.. why would you ever want to remain shackled to the pump, be it gassoline or hydrogen?

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