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	<title>Comments on: Plug-in Cars May Substitute Dependence on Foreign Oil With Dependance on Foreign Batteries</title>
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	<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/</link>
	<description>Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cricut bag</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/#comment-129562</link>
		<dc:creator>cricut bag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world.</p>
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		<title>By: RB</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/#comment-48321</link>
		<dc:creator>RB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#113 Michael S says &quot;FWIW: Lithium can be extracted as a byproduct of the brine output of desalination plants.&quot;

An extremely important point.  Thank you.  It means lithium can come, for example, from the Tampa FL water supply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#113 Michael S says &#8220;FWIW: Lithium can be extracted as a byproduct of the brine output of desalination plants.&#8221;</p>
<p>An extremely important point.  Thank you.  It means lithium can come, for example, from the Tampa FL water supply.</p>
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		<title>By: sifta</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/#comment-48105</link>
		<dc:creator>sifta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the whole premise is wrong.. It is not foreign oil vs. foreign batteries.  Rather it is imported natural resources vs. imported finished goods (mainly a function of labor).  The batteries may be manufactured anywhere including USA, and can be dual / triple sourced to prevent &quot;dependency&quot; in the sense that they are talking about.  

The article reads like a rather poor apology for the ICE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the whole premise is wrong.. It is not foreign oil vs. foreign batteries.  Rather it is imported natural resources vs. imported finished goods (mainly a function of labor).  The batteries may be manufactured anywhere including USA, and can be dual / triple sourced to prevent &#8220;dependency&#8221; in the sense that they are talking about.  </p>
<p>The article reads like a rather poor apology for the ICE.</p>
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		<title>By: 57silver</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/#comment-48096</link>
		<dc:creator>57silver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 04:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>nasaman @ # 116,

I am not sure exactly what is going on nasaman. I have read, as in the link I furnished, that CPI has more than one cell construction method. I still think, but do not know for certain, that the cell with the least expensive manufacturing procedure has a lower energy density than the 3rd gen pack that has recently been tested. The cell that was estimated to be relatively inexpensive to produce only had an energy density of 65 watt-hours/kg, verses 130 wh/kg and better for some of the more expensive technologies. Possibly CPI will get a contract for both battery packs, I don&#039;t know.
I haven&#039;t found much public info on the A123 pack, or if they also have two or more configurations. I was mistaken to assume CPI was the only one to use the &#039;prismatic&#039;, or layered, construction method though. I read another article that stated A123&#039;s cells were about the size of three decks of cards placed side by side, and were also a layered, flat cell. At least one of CPI&#039;s cells, maybe both, are stated to be about the size of a paperback book. I would imagine a lot of cost differences would be in the method, and materials, used in building the anodes and cathods, plus how complicated the battery pack is to cool sufficiently. 

The US Department of Energy&#039;s National Renewable Energy Laboratory has teamed up with A123 to improve their thermal management system in the battery pack:
&quot;We&#039;re pleased to be working with A123Systems on thermal management of their advanced nanophosphate-based lithium ion batteries,&quot; NREL Principal Engineer Ahmad Pesaran said. &quot;Batteries with improved thermal behavior are critical for widespread acceptance of affordable hybrid-electric vehicles that consume less fuel and reduced harmful emissions.&quot; 
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503

As for as the cost of &#039;most&#039; Li-Ion packs go, I still keep seeing estimates of $10,000 to $15,000:
&quot;But the cost of the batteries is an issue at Toyota. Hanson would say only that the automaker expects them to cost more than the roughly $3,000 to replace the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in the Prius.

But Paul Boskovitch, chief engineer of hybrid systems for auto supplier Ricardo Inc., ventures that lithium-ion batteries needed to power a vehicle now run $10,000 to $15,000, which would make such a vehicle price prohibitive.&quot;
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.batteries22jun22,0,4641906.story</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nasaman @ # 116,</p>
<p>I am not sure exactly what is going on nasaman. I have read, as in the link I furnished, that CPI has more than one cell construction method. I still think, but do not know for certain, that the cell with the least expensive manufacturing procedure has a lower energy density than the 3rd gen pack that has recently been tested. The cell that was estimated to be relatively inexpensive to produce only had an energy density of 65 watt-hours/kg, verses 130 wh/kg and better for some of the more expensive technologies. Possibly CPI will get a contract for both battery packs, I don&#8217;t know.<br />
I haven&#8217;t found much public info on the A123 pack, or if they also have two or more configurations. I was mistaken to assume CPI was the only one to use the &#8216;prismatic&#8217;, or layered, construction method though. I read another article that stated A123&#8242;s cells were about the size of three decks of cards placed side by side, and were also a layered, flat cell. At least one of CPI&#8217;s cells, maybe both, are stated to be about the size of a paperback book. I would imagine a lot of cost differences would be in the method, and materials, used in building the anodes and cathods, plus how complicated the battery pack is to cool sufficiently. </p>
<p>The US Department of Energy&#8217;s National Renewable Energy Laboratory has teamed up with A123 to improve their thermal management system in the battery pack:<br />
&#8220;We&#8217;re pleased to be working with A123Systems on thermal management of their advanced nanophosphate-based lithium ion batteries,&#8221; NREL Principal Engineer Ahmad Pesaran said. &#8220;Batteries with improved thermal behavior are critical for widespread acceptance of affordable hybrid-electric vehicles that consume less fuel and reduced harmful emissions.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503" rel="nofollow">http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503</a></p>
<p>As for as the cost of &#8216;most&#8217; Li-Ion packs go, I still keep seeing estimates of $10,000 to $15,000:<br />
&#8220;But the cost of the batteries is an issue at Toyota. Hanson would say only that the automaker expects them to cost more than the roughly $3,000 to replace the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in the Prius.</p>
<p>But Paul Boskovitch, chief engineer of hybrid systems for auto supplier Ricardo Inc., ventures that lithium-ion batteries needed to power a vehicle now run $10,000 to $15,000, which would make such a vehicle price prohibitive.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.batteries22jun22,0,4641906.story" rel="nofollow">http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.batteries22jun22,0,4641906.story</a></p>
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		<title>By: LB</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/22/plug-in-cars-may-substitute-dependence-on-foreign-oil-with-dependance-on-foreign-batteries/#comment-48060</link>
		<dc:creator>LB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>85 Morgan

Yes - you are right, the CEO works for the Board of Directors and they are working for the shareholders.  But in most large American companies, The Board of Directors, the CEO and the CFO, even though they are a relatively few number of people holding the company shares, are holding most of the shares.  The large numbers of remaining shareholders are holding a relatively small percentage of the stocks.  They are getting extremely rich while the rest struggle to buy a gallon of gas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>85 Morgan</p>
<p>Yes &#8211; you are right, the CEO works for the Board of Directors and they are working for the shareholders.  But in most large American companies, The Board of Directors, the CEO and the CFO, even though they are a relatively few number of people holding the company shares, are holding most of the shares.  The large numbers of remaining shareholders are holding a relatively small percentage of the stocks.  They are getting extremely rich while the rest struggle to buy a gallon of gas.</p>
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